Time loops are a weird genre for an anxious time
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- Опубликовано: 12 июн 2024
- Time loop games have become a trend over the past few years: from Twelve Minutes, to Outer Wilds, to Deathloop. But the genre is by no means new! It predates Groundhog Day and goes all the way back to World War II. Still, there's a reason time loop stories keep coming back... looping, if you will. Jenna Stoeber walks us through the intricacies of time loops and alternate realities, and what it all has to do with our current ANXIETY.
0:00 Time loops are having a moment
1:15 The history of time loops
2:42 Alternate reality vs. time loops
5:54 Meta awareness of time loops
10:25 Elsinore: time loop Hamlet
12:35 Anxiety and doomscrolling
16:38 What time loops help us understand
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#hamlet #timeloop 
Игры
What would you do if you were stuck in a time loop?
Seek seek lest, and end the Reign of Lords.
Just take time to chill, I need a break
Hike, walk, game, read, you name it!
Depends on how much time I have...
learn and experience as much as I can. Set myself up for the best future out of the timeloop
the fact this opens with Rozencrantz and Guildenstern has the english major in me just full of happiness lmao
It made me miss college for a minute haha
I was just about to comment this, I was so delighted!
It pleases the Theater student in me as well.
heads
There's some musical version of hamlet that we found in my ap lit class and they have a song with the lyric "we're rosencrantz and guildenstern, we'll see you around!" And i sing it every time i hear their names
9:30 cowards! I want to hear Jenna explain why software are art for 4 hours (no intermissions)!
sequel vid
@@polygon holding you to this
@@polygon saved
I'll second that motion ANYDAY.
@@polygon waiting for it now
Small tip: don't read Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are dead after midnight if you're already on the verge of a existential crisis. Learned that the hard way.
That’s fair…
A small epiphany I had recently about time-loop stories and similar genres (e.g. "I died and was reincarnated in a video game I know well"-style isekai) is that they have a similar appeal to One Punch Man and Mob Psycho 100.
In both those stories, the main character has effectively unlimited power. It's never a question of "is Saitama/Mob strong enough to overcome this problem?" The central conflict comes not from the need for more godlike strength, it's the question of how best to apply that strength, and what they do when they run into problems that their strength can't solve (Saitama being disregarded by the hero community, or Mob having a crush on a girl that's not impressed by his psychic powers).
For a time-loop story, the protagonist has the near-infinite power of perfect knowledge; through enough loops, they'll memorize everything that's going on, and can jam a wrench in the gears of whatever is the problem for them. It removes one of the core limitations of a more conventional story (limited knowledge of what happens next) and in doing so opens up a new way to solve the challenges presented by the story.
I really like this take! I wouldn't have thought to link One-Punch Man with time loop games but like you said, it's playing with the concept of unlimited power.
This is an amazing observation!! I never thought of it that way before but it makes so much sense!
I remember reading the Night Angel series by Brent Weeks in HS and being impressed by how they did the "isekai power fantasy" thing. Our hero might be an unstoppable assassin, but you can't fix all the world's problems through assassination.
Looking back I think the books have plenty of rough edges. I'm not sure if I'd wholeheartedly recommend them now, but I remember enjoying that central theme of "what problems can violence actually solve?"
"The Cowboy Universe, a.k.a. Italy in the 1960s"
Boy oh boy, Polygon never disappoints
We live in a time loop that involves rereleasing Skyrim to mark the start of a new cycle.
Prove me wrong.
i don't think i can
oh, you're finally awake!
This is SO good!!!
Thanks Jacob!!
And this right here, folks, is what we call class recognising class.
Imagine receiving a compliment from one of the best content creators in the platform...
Just goes to show how much you've grown in your video essays, Jenna. You deserve all the praise and then some.
Amazing work. Between you and BDG, I'm starting to think Polygon really knows how to spot raw talent.
Keep 'em coming, miss, this community values you.
Jacob made a really good video recently called Time Loop Nihilism. Check it out if you liked this one!
Thought of you when I saw this notification! Cheers from NC
@@axemtitaniumi was just watching that vid today then got recommended to this one
Jenna's videos are always great, but sometimes they're also Important.
ExCUSE you, Jenna's video about Jack 'Garland' Finalfantasy and his normcore muscle shirt is Extremely Important.
F everything in this channel
As a “yes, and” I think one of the other things that give time loops their “oomph” and appeal to people with anxiety is the idea of being saddled with a trauma that’s literally based in nothing. If you are traumatized by something and go back to prevent it, you may have averted the material effect but the psychological trauma is still there and now exclusive to you.
it was really cool in life is strange when max broke this down for chloe, who hadn't really realized the sheer amount of horrible shit max had been through that hadn't "really" happened
Overthinking and being in a no win abusive romantic relationship and a no win job (peoples lives on the line, no money, no time, hands tied all the time), really had the line from the hoosier's song "a sadness runs through him" of "here was a man mourning tommorow" that really struck me with the same feeling I think you are explaining.
@@anjafrohlich1170 Yeah I think that’s their point… It’s a fantastical reflection of real life
Hadestown is another play that ends (and begins) with that thought: maybe next time it’ll be different. Maybe, this time, it won’t be a tragedy. We know it will-it can only end that way-but we’re gonna keep telling it in the hope that one day it ends differently.
"You die a thousand casual deaths, without any of the intensity that squeezes out life"
Someone hasn't played Darksouls
No casual, I!
Or watched Re Zero
I had a full and in depth conversation about rosencrantz and guildenstern are dead with my brother yesterday. Wild.
I love that play! - Simone
My hot take is that rosencrantz and guildenstern are the characters in Hamlet that make me the saddest
0:00 Now you can make your own Time Loop!
When yesterday on the stream you announced that today you're going to release a big well researched video, i was excited, and now that ive watched it...
I am anxious and hopeful.
Thank you, i think i will return to this video several times to come to terms with several points.
Thanks for tuning in!
The coin flip in Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead always messes with me-even with unending loops, is there even a possibility to change?
Kain, in the Legacy of Kain series, questions his fate, and of the world, the possibility of true free will, "...suppose you throw a coin enough times... suppose one day, it lands on its edge."
That's why I love the play so much. Guildenstern says, "We'll get it right next time," as if he has any say over changing the plot the next time the curtain rises. It's already been written with no change. Shakespeare finished Hamlet (and on another meta level, Stoppard finished "Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead") so even though there's the knowledge that he's in a play, and he has the knowledge that he COULD have turned back somewhere, he never will.
To quote another line of his, "It's all done for you."
It depends on the “type” of random. If it’s random in a quantum, truly random way, yes it’s absolutely possible to have different outcomes. If it’s randomness generated via seeds or chaos theory, it will be the same every time regardless
@@crickitobs Hearing of Legacy of Kain again always give me a taste of that bittersweet illusion, hope.
everything has a 50/50 chance- either it happens, or it doesn't
I always love a good timeloop story--to the point that my last project eventually evolved into one even though i never initially planned it to be. Oops! Anyway, i'm so excited at the Elsinore shoutout! It's really cool that you got to interview Connor Fallon. I see the developers were anxious about certain endings being "Too OP" which is funny, but personally, i thought it was fine that there was some varrying degrees of "goodness" b/c i think it all comes down to the players values & which cost you're willing to take. the "save everyone" ending you think you want comes at the cost of impending war, the othello ending is one of the more gratifying endings for Ophelia specifically but comes at the cost of knowing its only temporary, and abdicating responsibility for your old community, leaving ppl to their fates, etc. It was the ending i chose, but it didn't feel so indulgent as to be the "right" choice. I thought the game was really kept the spirit of the play's themes and values, as well as Stoppard's Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are dead, so it was cool when the video opened up right away with a reference to that movie!
Yeah, the idea of there not being a "right" ending really resonated with me! - Simone
I will always thank my high school English teacher for having us read this play directly after months of hamlet study
It's such a fun play! - Simone
It's also a genuinely funny! My class was laughing but also just...thinking
I never thought a polygon video would make me cry but I don't know man this one hit hard. I think I needed the hope in this perspective. Incredible job Jenna and team! Thanks for all the heart you put into your work.
❤️❤️❤️
This was really good video! Thought to myself that I should watch it again and realised I'm putting Jenna in a time loop by doing so. Maybe the video will end differently this time
Free her
that's some expensive technology you're holdin!
This (collective) reflection on time loops verbalizes thoughts I've tried to articulate since I played the Forgotten City. With the pandemic and all, I had an inkling it could be linked to anxiety... But having some history along a way more elaborate train of thought is a whole other story. Love the video, thanks!
Thanks so much! I quite liked The Forgotten City, although they really should've called it The Golden Rule. - Simone
I cackled at the beep and immediate jumpcut after the McLuhan mention. Being hit with the progression of Rosencrantz and guildenstern to hamlet to hamlet on the holodeck to JANET MURRAY IN PERSON made me ascend, and that was without factoring how alternate realities and time loop and time travel are my favourite tropes and hearing Jenna talk about stuff I enjoy is ALWAYS a treat. She has such good ideas and takes and she talks about it in a way that is clear for a general audience but also meaty enough for people who have dipped into games academically before.
Maybe the moments of self-agency we exercise are the time loops we experienced along the way.
Yeeeees love this way of thinking:D
Ooh, sociologic analysis connected to videogames!
Can't wait to find out next why there are so many roguelites around lately :D
Arent Rougelikes just time loop games in their own right?
I wonder if it makes sense to think about roguelikes as timeloop games too. You're going through them over and over, same goal, but different paths. (And roguelites are a lot friendlier than 'proper' roguelikes, so.)
They are also about persevering through difficulty above your ability until you build the skill and mastery to advance. Can't imagine how that might be relevant right now
Was genuinely surprised that this video didn't end up looping back on itself at the end, lol. Of course I can always rewatch! And probably will, this was a really incredible dive! thanks once again polygon ♥
This is so good that it hurts. Every single video of you is a masterpiece.
Of yours* only you just really like that speaker 🤨
I've been stuck lately with maladaptive daydreaming where despite lots of struggle everything works out all right, which then makes clocking into reality painful.
Talking out why, other than the simple explanation of it feels good, is really helpful even though it is painful. I will have to watch this video again when I put my brain back together but thank you
this video was weirdly insightful into the human condition, and I walked away feeling differently than I thought I would. Instead of a laugh at a fun theme, I feel like I have this hopeful insight towards the seeming bleakness of our viewed reality. Cheers for that, didn't even know this was a video I needed
Wow. Wow wow wow. This was really really great. This is why I still subscribe to polygon. This was a really impactful video essay. Some really resonant ideas that I’ve been mulling over for years now myself. Thanks for this!!! Keep up the amazing work!!!
DANG this is a very good video. It's interesting, I've noticed that playing video games where I can go back and change my actions (via save scumming, time loops, or otherwise) pops up sometimes when I'm having a stressful dream-- my brain says, wait, can we replay this in a way where you negate the threat? And that is very comforting to whatever anxiety caused the stress in the first place... but of course, that might not be the healthiest tendency.
It sounds like exactly the problem-solving that Janet Murray talks about here! - Simone
...and the way Outer Wilds subverts the expectation of the "true, perfect ending" by having the true, perfect ending be the one where [REDACTED]
Some bits of this video also made me think of Oneshot, but I think I'll keep those thoughts hidden, just in case 👀
I also immediately thought of Oneshot!
Jenna Stoeber, you're my hero. THANK YOU for all these firsthand sources in yr video essay. Bomb AF.
The whole rosencrantz and guildenstern opening is impeccable. One way that plays interact with the meta knowledge of production that feels appropriate is an adaption of the myth of Electra in a play I can’t remember the name of (I’ll come back if I do) where, when it comes down to it, Orestes hesitates to kill their mother, and Electra sees it and his grief over it. In the play following, Electra kills Clytemnestra herself bc she knows that what would happen if Orestes did. This alternates, one night Orestes murders Clytemnestra, the next it’s Electra. I think it’s fascinating
Every time I watch Jenna's videos, I find more games that I want to play. I don't think Ophelia's journey gets enough attention in the original play, and even though it's a tragedy, I still think there's value in choosing how it plays out.
Update: I have been cursed with the knowledge of a game that has no subreddit and no active Tumblr tag but with which I am, nonetheless, obsessed.
Time loop stories are really versatile! You can change an optimistic playthrough into a horror game just by allowing the player to learn everything about a situation, but showing them that ultimately, their choices do not matter; they are powerless to prevent their (or others') fate.
I watched an ancient Philosophy Tube video two days ago about that play, and had never heard about it prior to that. Gotta love it when things like that happen.
Incredibly fascinating video!
Me: I'm not that into time loop games, but I like Polygon videos, so I'll watch it.
Jenna: In "Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead"...
Me: I have never been more invested in any video in my life
Got ‘em
'But there's no way to cordon off bad news so that you receive it when you're *in the right headspace to receive information that could hurt you'*
I see what you did there, Jenna. Don't think I didn't.
... I don't see it =l
This is one of the most lovely and profound videos y'all have put together.
thank you
I was wondering when Undertale was going to be brought up for the whole video, only to be suddenly rewarded with the catharsis of seeing it mentioned, the regret that it was merely in passing, and the sting of betrayal from "Flowery". Truly, this is the worst possible outcome. Perhaps, if I were to watch this video again, it could happen differently...
There's an interesting parallel here between the signifigance of time loop stories and the similarity in our everyday lives. I applaud Jenna for bridging the gap between games and life on this topic.
I love you for not only mentioning Elsinore but also putting it in the thumbnail!
I had an existential moment playing with that game. Not only because of the game mechanic itself, but also the character details. I'm currently lacking sleep to express it coherently, in English even. Let's just say, following the Gertrude in the dungeon talking to Brit hits hard because it reminds me how it's the little acts of kindness at times where it's hard to exercise it are what makes the world still function throughout lifetimes.
sometimes i see a video that i like the premise of so much that it's hard for me to watch bc i think i'll get so excited that my head will pop like a balloon. i love time loops so much and i've loved them for years this video is so good
You die a thousand casual deaths, without any of the intensity that squeezes out life" is such a raw line, and while written over 6 decades ago, crazy fitting for these video games!
This was a fascinating analysis! I love writing alternate-reality fics and I think this is a good analysis of that, along with of course the timeloops.
Alternate universes are so fun! I always end up doing them even with my original characters because it makes such a fun puzzle box to figure out. -Simone
i love when y'all bring in professors & other experts! it's fascinating to see someone so knowledgeable speak about their field of interest
One thing that I think also contributes to time loop stories, though on a little different note to the video's main arguments, is that time loop stories seem to be built in the shadow of emulation. "What if I went back and did that differently" is something that's inherent to videogames but is VERY pronounced if you're, say, savescumming your way through Mega Man X (the way Flowey fights you is less "reload a save from the game over screen" and more "have a finger hovering around f4 in case things go bad"). This also leans into the meta-"games as software" angle games like Inscryption go toward. The UI for when you select your file as a card is not too different from finding a rom on zsnes
Time to play the game of
How long until we get a Marshal McLuhan mention
There it is, 9:35
HAHHAHA OH NO
Always a good day when a new Polygon video drops
Thank ya!
As someone who loves Uchikoshi games and has clinical anxiety, the idea of being about to go to timelines where you can fix things for the better has always resonated with me
seriously give jenna just so much time to make long, smart videos like this. one of the coolest smartest people i'm aware of
This feels like Important Content.
Thank you Jenna and Polygon team for making me think this hard about games and myself!
Time Loop is a favourite genre of mine, so good to see some actual analysis on why it's so popular!
Glad it hit for you!
I really love Jenna's videos. They're thoughtful, thorough, and topical.
watched this video expecting When They Cry (or any time loop based "death game" game) to show up at least once, did not get. was a very good video, I just wanted to see my boy Battler or even Junpei screaming in the background at least once :'(
man, what a great video... it was a nice surprise to see professor janet murray, her book inspired me a lot during college. pls more videos like this jenna!!
this video is so flippin cool. it has me reflecting on a lesson I learned only very recently about my anxiety-- it's kind of the flipside of what connor says toward the end, that "when you're faced with a difficult situation, the only power we have is to act as wisely as we can with the information we have": sometimes, it's better for you to make the wisest decision you can with incomplete information than it would be to seek out more information in order to make a theoretically wiser decision. running the loop over and over again trying to collect every tidbit before making any decisive choice is the maladaptive version of the ability to hold multiple realities in your head at once. after a certain point, trying to fathom all the possibilities at the same time before moving forward is paranoia, and it can drive you to insanity or despair. so while it's good to collect info, you have to set a minimum threshold for yourself (which is always going to be arbitrary; there's no perfect cutoff for information gathering either) or you'll never move forward at all. besides, the vast majority of decisions don't require that neurotic degree of care anyway. we gotta learn to self-talk ourselves down from the ledge above the void have I mixed enough metaphors
“it’s an old song, it’s an old tale, it’s a tragedy. And we’re gonna sing it again and again. Because here’s the thing. To know how it ends and still begin to sing it again, as if it might turn out this time. I learned that from a friend of mine.” - Hadestown. Jenna I absolutely LOVE this I’m working on a PhD in philosophy (of video games!) and these themes of our want of control in and above our willingness to engage the fiction have popped up and I LOVE your analysis. Honestly I might end up citing this video and your interviews in my thesis! Also, if you want watched Hadestown, do so! You’d love it.
When BDG left Polygon, I was concerned that I wouldn't care about this channel anymore. Thanks for squashing those concerns flat! Great video!
Y'all are continuing to put the 'journalism' into videos and games. and also journalism.this was a really good one guys, keep it up. xoxoxoxox
Another play time-loop sort of thing is Rocky Horror, specifically noted with a set of call backs about Janet. You may get a response to the first time her normal response is given to give her a chance, to which the normal response is that she WAS given a chance last time but still ended up the same.
Especially with the stage production, you can get characters aware of their presence in a time loop of the events of the musical but helpless to stop it.
I love that I included refs to R&G are Dead (and Slaughterhouse Five, actually) in a time loop fanfic i wrote, and then felt stupidly validated to see it mentioned in this context xDD
I LOVE time loop media. don’t really think this is a completely on base answer for why they’re popular in terms of the “anxiety” or “bad world” since I have no anxiety issues and I’m happy with the state of things in the world lol.
I just think they’re fun because they can make a space SUPER dense, and there is a constant sense of discovery as something you walk by before, you see new meaning in the second time around. Almost like the answer was there the whole time but you just missed it before. It’s very satisfying. There is also a great feeling of mastery as you know an event or space better and better. My favorites are outer wilds of course - but also deathloop, forgotten city (game and mod), all you need is kill (novel), perfect run (novel), mother of learning (amazing novel), menocht loop (mediocre novel), blessed time (also mediocre). Then the amazing movie primer which is more time travel than time loop, and coherence if we are talking alternate realities
Thank you for the thoughtful response!
Hell yeah, Mother of Learning is so good, it's kind of insane. Definitely one of my favorite pieces of fiction. Also agree with the response.
I'm always amazed by polygon videos, like they're always go in depth of a subject with so much research and they explore a lot of the parameters that are related to te subject
The guests are so well chosen and are very qualified, and it gives us the opportunity to learn more if we read or watch their stuff
It really feels like watching a mini documentary with funny bits and jokes and that really makes it one of the best cultural and vulgarisation channel out there
Thank you
This is SUCH an amazing video, great job Jenna and team!!! :D
GREAT video. Really thoughtful script and great input from the guest interviews.
This is so thought provoking! I think it’s my fav video Jenna has done :) 💕
Mine too!
This was a very special video it hit really close to home. Amazing work Jenna
Such a hopeful video! It is what I needed today. 😊😊
love how she refers to spaghetti westerns as “Cowboy Italy”
God, Polygon, Jenna.
Such great stuff.
This is the most optimistic video I have seen in the pandemic era
Wow, this is... outstanding. Uplifting. Awesome analysis - thanks Jenna
i was in a local production of hamlet and our director decided to push the horatio/hamlet pairing. it made for a very interesting and cool interpretation
always here for that - Simone
I had a class with Dr. Murray last semester! She’s a really great professor
Jenna (and team), thank you so much for making this 💖
"I can see the endings that the realms will not permit" Say what you will about Homestuck, but that do be how anxiety and time loop games work.
Interesting thing about time loops is how it evolves from a bunch of Groundhog Day rip-offs to a genre on its own and how adaptable they to other genres to tell their own stories.
im not sure how this all fits into the puzzle so to speak but i also feel like a big part of time loop stories for me is an intersection with power of love. i want to be able to find the canon ending, or at least in the stories where not everything can be saved, the ending i feel is better than nothing, by trusting in those around me. we may not have all the power and information to make things work the first time, and maybe even the structure of the time loop itself is keeping us from remembering the information we need to survive; regardless, i want to believe that as long as we trust in, rely upon, and love each other, we can figure it out together. that is a huuuuuge part of time loops for me.
I loved Elsinore a lot, but I’m not sure the ending system was super well executed. I do like how every ending had a sacrifice (I personally didn’t like the Othello ending.) I personally really liked the Rosencrants/Guildenstern ending and the one where you sacrifice yourself to keep the bad guy at bay. But I didn’t know those were the endings I liked until I saw them because Im not sure if the game did an amazing job at advertising what each ending would entail and how much of Ophelia’s life the ending would cover. Many endings dictate who exactly Ophelia would marry, how she would die, and other decisions she would make, even though those didn’t seem like things she would be forced to do. For a game that emphasized the branching possibilities of what a single choice could result in, some of the endings were very concrete and specific in a way that felt empty.
For full immersion, put the video on loop and watch it forever
One of the leading theories about the evolutionary purpose of dreaming is exactly this--time-loop scenarios to optimize survival. I hadn't connected these kinds of media to that until now. Thanks. :) I love the idea that in a very real way this kind of story or engagement is a waking dream.
Thank you for making this. I didn't know it, but it was exactly what I needed to hear today.
I so badly want someone at Polygon to play the Pathologic games. I feel like there's so much they could do with it. It's got time-loops, performance as a frame narrative, direct addressing of the player, plague, sacrifice and selfishness...
Easily the best Polygon video I’ve watched
time loop stories are literally my favorite. additionally, i have had anxiety for the majority of my life
This was way more interesting than it had every right to be. After watching no way home I discussed with my girlfriend that disney will probably run the multiverse thing in to the ground, not realizing this isn't an isolated piece of media. Thank you!
this was such a good video!! also made me think about Pathologic when you were talking about dying in video games, as that one has real actual consequences every time you die, and the endings are all mixed feelings of good for some people but horrible for others
i love this video deeeeeply. thanks for verbalizing something that's hard to explain!
This video crystallizes so many thoughts I've had about star trek and sci-fi tropes of time loops, alternate universes, and trapped in the holodeck episodes and why they're so good
fantastic, thought-provoking discussion of media as usual
Polygon you guys are killing it keep it up damn
I LOVED this video!! So good, so interesting, such incredible framing of the current moment in culture AND in gaming, WOW!
What a great exploration of a totally unique subject. Thank you.
This is so good, I will probably rewatch several times
Phenomenal video, as usual, Jenna!
This reminds me of Deponia Doomsday, which has a really convoluted time loop and the whole point of it was to tell the players: "The ending of Deponia 3 can't be changed, get over it"
Now I kinda want to see a time loop game that turns this on it's head. Where the more obsessively you search for the right piece of information to get the one right ending, the worse the endings you get. One where the first ending is the best one you could get, where the moral, the message of the game is not to obsess, or give in to the anxiety, but to accept the reality for what it is.
fantastic video. makes me think of pathologic, especially within the context of the game being a conversation between the player and designer. really fun way to think about art
This was FASCINATING, thank you