A BOW-ARM technique from Odessa as demonstrated by David Oistrakh & Eduard Grach
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- Опубликовано: 4 окт 2024
- In this episode, I am exploring the unmatched bow control and its principles from some of the best Stolyarsky's pupils: David Oistrakh and Eduard Grach. How they acquired these skills remains an untold secret; there are no proper books, articles, or testimonies to be found. Let's dive in and try to figure it out on our own.
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I am a violinist from Odessa where I studied in the Stolyarsky Special Music School and the Odessa Conservatory with a great teacher, one of Stolyarsky's favorite students, Artur Leonidovich Zisserman. I don't recall any discussion of pronation or supination or any fancy dogmas at all. Since everybody has different hands, different arm lenghth and so on, the position of all components of the right hand was stricktly individual. No conveyer belt. The solid technique was necessary. But the good sound was paramount. How to achieve it? It is easier to describe what NOT to do. "Don't play with "the wooden hand". Flexibility, natural movement of the arm, hand, fingers. As nature intended. That's what unites Oistrakh and Grach.
Thank you for your comment, this is exactly the point! No dogmas, everything was based on natural law, physics, and everyone’s individual structure of the body! Auer said the same thing. Geminiani, Tartini, all were taking about the same thing. Didn’t you write by any chance “Одесские Ребята”? - A great read!
Magnifique remarque !
Merci.!
Moi-même violoniste, Français, a étudié au Conservatoire National Supérieur de Paris, avec Régis Pasquier. Il n'était pas question, hélas, de ce poignet si souple..
Quelle belle vidéo, édifiante !
@@vladimirdyo7301 Yes, I did.
Excellent. Thank you for posting this. Not only highly instructional for string players, but also a great window into the Stolyarsky school of violin playing, and the chance to hear wonderful performances by Oistrakh and Grach. Again, many thanks!
Thank you, glad you enjoyed it and found this helpful!
Milstein studied with Stolyarsky but he didn’t adopt this bow hold or bowing technique. Thank you for posting this insightful video! 🙏🏻🎻
My guess is that Milstein might have been influenced by Elman and Heifetz while studying with Auer, in a similar way to how Horowitz, after studying with Tarnovsky, went on to study with Blumenfeld and changed his finger positions to a flatter way. The flat fingers technique expanded his palette of colors for what he is famous for.
I was wondering the same.
I find the Stolyarsky bow hold the finest one.
@@vladimirdyo7301 In my mind Milstein combined Stoliarsky technique (independence of fingers) with 'shoulder-to-forearm' bow movement, which Auer's pupils used in a very quickly and energetic movement, and the result was as flawless as their classmates at Stoliarsky school, adding even more virtuosity and loudness of sound. But this is just my humble opinion :)
@@literatura-violintrivium-q9952 I surely agree that Milstein added way more shoulder use in his playing, which made it more energetic, and I would add less elegant. Grach clip here is the most elegant and refined violin playing can get, really absurd he was so proficient when he was so young
Beautiful video! I just cant stop listening Oistrakh since first time I’ve heard him
Я не музыкант. Я публика. И для меня это тоже бесценный урок. Владимир, спасибо за видео.
Thanks so much for posting this! People must know more about the pedagogy of Stoliarsky and the great Soviet School!! 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
I always will check out a new bowhand video to try to perfect my still unperfected bowing. But here the beauty of his sound just kept me riveted.
A TREASURE for all violinists - wish I could have seen and heard this when I was studying - the text is so well formulated - a valuable lesson!
Thank you, I am glad you found it valuable. Well, it’s never too late.
@vladimirdyo: Thank you - well, for me it's too late - my left little finger has become stiff (I'm 79, and an amateur violinist). I still enjoy watching the technique, specially of David Oistrakh - my absolute favourite, Greatest of the Greats - unbeatable King of Violinists. Eduard Grach is a new acquaintance. I hope I will find some of his music here on RUclips. It's really fantastic how much beautiful music here is.
By the way, in an interview Igor Oistrakh says that when his father was a child at abt 3, his parents took him to a violin teacher (if I remember right, it was Stolyarsky). This teacher said, after examining the boy's musicality, that as the boy wasn't musical at all, he'd better take up some other hobby. Luckily for us, David Oistrakh wanted to play, and after listening to him at a youth concdrt years later, Stolyarsky became David Oistrakh's teacher for many years to come. David Oistrakh had said that he loved and admired that teacher: he taught his pupils also to love music.
Remember what they said to Einstein, regarding poor attitude and grades, because he was busy with HIS ideas.
@@vladimirdyo7301I've listened to Eduard Grach in Brahms violin concerto (most of 1st part) - I loved it - he has the strength, intensity, fervousity and also tenderness - like David Oistrakh - I'm not sure about the warmth yet... but surely I'm going to listen to more, and I believe he will be the other violinist I will love to hear.
@@emmzzz Thanks - but sorry, I don't get it - It sounds interesting 'though - would you explain?
INTERESSANTISSIMO ! Compliments , Mr Dyo , your contributions to violinism knowledge is really precious !
Thank you, really appreciate your kind words!
This video is really great! Appreciate the offering!
Thank you.
Maravillosa interpretación y Magistral Fraseo ; con un sonido de Excelencia del LEGENDARIO VIOLINISTA .
Your videos are wonderful sources of knowledge. I truly appreciate your efforts. I’m learning a lot.
Thank you, I am glad you find them useful!
I have recently discovered this wonderful channel, glad I did. Thank you for sharing these jewels.
Thank you for your kind words.
A real Gem!Thank you!
Thank you for all these precious content! Really appreciate it if you also make a video about the Auer style of bowing technique 🙏
I learned both and much prefer the Auer style.
Thank you for posting this video.❤️❤️🎶
All of this is very helpful. Supple fingers and forearm rotation will do you more good than excessive wrist movement. But seriously that right hand pizzicato at 3:51 deserves in depth analysis in a video of its own.
Amazing work thank you for sharing.
MAGiSTRALES ejecuciones de brillantes Obras Maestras .
Thank you
Great! Thank you
muy bello,gracias!
Can’t believe I haven’t heard of Eduard Grach - fabulous playing. The resemblance of his bowing technique to Oistrakh’s is uncanny!
The short exercise at the end was helpful but would love it if you did a more detailed video into how to learn this type of bowing technique (even though most of us would never be able to play to the level of these old masters).
PS the bowing style seems quite different to many modern players who use less and more concentrated bow contact to produce the sound (eg Hilary Hahn) whereas these guys seem to be using much more bow speed.
Thank you. Your observation is accurate, the bow-hold technique changed with post-Oistrakh generation in the 2nd half of the 20th century. In the episode you can get little more ideas of the old school bowing technique: ruclips.net/video/U__mdUSe3Ao/видео.htmlfeature=shared
Old school performers had more variety in bow speed, shading, articulations etc. comparing to modern performers.
@@vladimirdyo7301 Very interesting.
@@vladimirdyo7301 Thanks, I check it out. Enjoying watching all these videos. Am going to try to incorporate some of the ideas into my practice.
Grazie per il bellissimo confronto tra massimi violinisti. Oistrach, dopo Heifetz, è quello che preferisco
Great video! It seems that there is no pronation or supination at all since that the wrist stays above the bow line and the fingers well rounded through the entire motion. Thinking to violinists like Zuckerman, Mintz or Shaham where the bow hand technique is solid and granite, the hand has different shape doing down bow (pronation) and up bow (supination) as well as the thumb flexes and stretches. Here with this Odessa technique seems that the thumb stays round and flexes the same whenever is down or up bow. Is it kind of right? Or am I missing something else? Really inspiring video. Thank you!
Thank you, glad you found it inspiring! The emphasis on pronation and supination is very common in post-Auer/Stolyarsky schools. But before that, culminating in Heifetz and Oistrakh, the school of thought was based on the universal principles of physics, logic, and nature, aiming to achieve maximum results with minimal effort. The Belgian violin school, culminating in Wieniawski, Vieuxtemps, and Ysaÿe, is also based on these principles. Geminiani was a genius who first outlined universal key principles not only for the right hand but also for the left hand, in the most concise manner possible. He instructed using only the forefinger (index finger) for tone production, which was the cornerstone in both Auer and Stolyarsky schools. They employed it differently, but the fundamental principle remained the same.
Could you please make a video with close up and bow exercises of this technique?
@@vladimirdyo7301where can we read more about these principles?
@@fedegroxoi am afraid this is the only channel
I think the difference lies in the Music halls of today...the Jewish school from Galamian was meant for a sound to reach the last person in the concert hall..the bowing schools changed because of this rock solid demand of sound..
After the era of nuances and filigran-music- making, came an era of secure but insensitive violin playing..
Very nice video. It`s difficult to decide wich technnique we should use. I think it is a question of experimenting and then decide. Milstein was also from Odessa and it is totally different.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts. This is an important topic, and there has been so much confusion surrounding it. Modern pedagogy often emphasizes certain dogmas that may work well for some individuals but not necessarily for others.
Unfortunately, this focus has led many away from fundamental principles rooted in physics and nature.
Human physiology is diverse-some people are tall, while others are short; some have long fingers, while others have shorter ones. The key lies in understanding your unique body structure.
Here is a thought to consider: Hold your instrument and bow in a way that aligns with your body’s natural structure. Avoid forcing positions that cause your muscles to lock up or strain. Instead, aim for an elastic, relaxed state. And see what works best for you.
I had two students whom I taught from their early age, one evolved naturally with “Franco-Belgian” while the other with “Russian”. Personally, I implement both styles as it suits my body type naturally.
As I can see it the tecnique to use depends on the character of the particular music and the anatomical and psycho-phisiological constitution of the violinist.
This is why representatives of the same school may use different technique even in the same piece of music.
if this music could be heard, in hospitals, many souls would be healed... (perhaps, too many, for them, for the system, for those who lead)
Such a great comment
What’s the second piece David oistrakh play?
Liebesleid❤
I read a great bio about him, but to my knowledge, it is only in German.I learned both schools, but I must confess, I prefer the technique of Elmann, Heifetz ect. I find it more flexible and easier to control.
Interesting. Thank you for sharing. These are different approaches, yet both are based on natural principles. Depending on the unique physical attributes of each person, one may find a similarity to one style or the other.
What is Oistrakh playing at 3:30?
Aleksander Zarzycki
Mazurka No.1, Op.26
@@umechan72006Thank you!
Whichever way you bow, different colors and articulations are achieved by manipulating the variables that create the sound. The goal is to manipulate these variables in an as comfortable and easy way as possible.
Heifetz clearly didn't bow the same way as Oistrakh, but I feel he has such different musical priorities that it is just a matter of style. If Oistrakh tried to sound like Heifetz or vice versa, their respective techniques might not be suitable for the style of music making of the other.
Either this, or both of them used the ideal technique for their body and would be perfectly capable to sound as they wished, had they only wanted to.
Very interesting to think about.
After hearing that first concert of Heifetz, Fritz Kreisler said, “Well gentlemen, we might as well all break our violins across our knees!” When Auer was asked who were his great pupils he started to name one by one and didn’t name Heifetz, and someone asked “how about Heifetz?”, he replied he was taught by God.
At one point I will make an episode about Heifetz’s tone production and bow technique.
@@vladimirdyo7301Was this a response to my comment? I have heard this countless times in the documentary and in youtube comments and forums. If you look for everything Heifetz on the internet, like I do, you'll see this story everywhere.
@@emmzzzCaprice Viennois by Kreisler. I had to look it up cuz I forgot the name. I just searched the violinist's name on yt and scrolled til I found the same recording.
@@vladimirdyo7301 That will be very interesting! I have obsessed over that bow arm for like 6 years in disbelief and awe.
I think every violinist has a great deal to learn from what he did.
He plays this Kreisler piece better than Kreisler himself.
No way🤣👎
OK, I was a bit effusive. Let me rephrase myself. His bowing gives off a marvelous, full singing tone but, to be sure, Kreisler still has that inimitable Viennese ease and delectable charm.
It is the Franco Belgium bow technique.
Я не скрипач ка но ЛЮБЛЮ СКРИПКУ СКРИПИЧНУЮ МУЗЫКУ. ДАВИД ОЙСТРАЙХ ВОСХИЩАЕТ своим деликайтнейшим, ИДЕАЛЬНЫМ ЗВУКОИЗВЛЕЧЕНИЕМ! ОЙСТРАХА МОЖНО ПОСТАВИТЬ В ОДИН РЯД С ХЕЙФИЦЕМ! (режет русский слух, когда Хейфица называют "Яша😱🤮")
Thanks much. Curious to know, which is not obvious on the video, do they hold the bow more on the tip of their fingers mostly on the stick, unlike some teachers advocate to have a more deeper hold further down into the frog.
Perhaps you are talking about today’s common practice keeping the ring finger deeply into the frog. In Oistrakh-Grach approach the ring finger is much more flexible and isn’t always attached to the stick at all times.
What is Ostrakh playing at 3:00? So sorry for this question. Thanks in advance
It’s only 1 sec of Oistrakh and it switches to Grach. He plays Kreisler’s Caprice Viennois
Perhaps I'm just slow, but I'm still trying to understand the distinction between the Stolyarsky bow arm and the mainstream FB technique we see with modern maestros like Perlman. Specifically how is the Odessa approach different?
In addition to your points about flexibility and relaxation, what I'm seeing is a reliance of bow speed rather than pressure, with a quiet wrist and a good deal of colle motion in the hand. Both artists achieve very clear articulation. Am I missing anything important?
Any additional insights you can offer would be appreciated.
(I'm descended from Odessa Jews, so have a particular interest in this topic!)
Great question! The similarity between the so-called mainstream FB and the Stolyarsky bow technique lies in the position of the index finger. However, the difference, as demonstrated by Oistrakh and Grach, lies in the usage of the ring finger, a wider range of bow speed, as well as muscular contraction and relaxation. The ring finger (along with pinky) is released more often, especially towards the upper half of the bow (except, perhaps, for chords and bouncing strokes), unlike the mainstream FB where the ring finger is mostly attached at every part of the bow. The latter is common with post-Stolyarsky pedagogues like Yampolsky, Yankelevich, Galamian, etc. Your observation is accurate.
@@vladimirdyo7301 Many thanks for the helpful response! I've been taking the opposite approach and am mainly influence by Auer students like Milstein and Elman. I'm attracted by the simplicity and power. This Odessa bow arm seems to have many more moving parts - I suspect that it may be very challenging for ordinary mortals? But you can always learn from trying different techniques, so I'm going to see what I can do with this.
Now you've clarified what to look for, I note that there is surprisingly little pronation at the tip - instead they seem to be using a whipping motion to increase the speed. Or am I misunderstanding?
Oistrakh was probably the finest fiddler I ever saw live - and living in Edinburgh I was lucky enough to see many of the greats during our marvellous Festival. So trying to understand what he was up to will hopefully be instructive.
Oistrakh stayed with Stolyarsky long-term and had great veneration for him. But Milstein moved on and wrote that he learned nothing from him. Do you have any insights into this rather surprising difference in perceptions?
Your observations are accurate. Well, I tell my students, if you want to play like Oistrakh, you should think like Oistrakh and practice like Oistrakh. He practiced a a lot more than everyone else focusing on all those exquisite details that we marvel upon and enjoy. As for the technique itself, yes, it is possible to learn. But I don’t know anyone who can teach it.
Regarding Milstein, I doubt he said that about Stokyarsky, but he did say that about Ysaye.
@@vladimirdyo7301 Where do you situate Itzhak Perlman's bowing in this discussion ?
@@TheZombieGAGA This question requires a separate episode about Perlman, as he switched from the Auer School to the Galamian FB School. Perlman is a very interesting case, and perhaps the only remaining one who can shed light on this through his personal experience. I hope to get a hold of him in person and thoroughly discuss this topic. However, for now, I will create an episode based on the information I have.
Any differences between Stolyarsky and Yampolsky bow holds?
Their most celebrated students, Oistrakh and Kogan, reflect the difference. The positioning of fingers is similar, but their use is different. Though, Grach maintained his Odessa bow-hold despite studying with Yampolsky for many years. He told me that when he joined the class of Yampolsky, Kogan was observing carefully his bow technique.
What is the piece you play at the end?
3rd movement of Beethoven’s 3rd sonata
@@vladimirdyo7301oh of course 😅 I can’t believe myself
Great russian violinist Zibulkin doesn't need this puny finger movement. True percision comes straight from the elbow!
What is the name of the first piece?
Kreisler - Caprice Viennois
러시아에서 문안. 프레이즈 부들 매끌.
What piece is Grach playing in the beginning?
Kreisler’s Caprice Vennois
Thank you, my son was asking me I’m so glad he loves classical music, especially violin.
What you are give for people you are lie!
Very interesting, thank you!
Glad you enjoyed it!
What are the cons to this bow technique?
Hard to obtain it
whats the name of the first piece?
Kreisler - Caprice Viennois