I once played the lead role in the play 'Sister Mary Ignatius Explains It All for You' (I was a nun... with a gun... and an Adam's Apple!). Her 'pet' Thomas would always get a cookie for memorizing her dogma (for example: 'The List of People Who Are Going To Hell', like Big John Holmes and Mick Jagger). :D
"Even if it's not true, it's the best offer". It would appear that organized religion (using a method made popular by organized crime) made Robert an offer he couldn't refuse.
The idea of 'Best offer' is interesting. Maybe you could give an analogy whereby you're at Best Buy and they have a sign saying that they have the 'Best Price' (best offer) on a Fitbit or a set of headphones. If he were in the store, how could he validate (or invalidate) Best Buys claim to see if it was indeed the best offer or would he just accept that thats a good price having not seen any other price? One option would be to look it up on Amazon, or just google the item to see how much everyone else is selling it for. The idea of a 'Best Offer' can only be claimed if you know what ELSE is on offer. If Best Buy is charging $140 for a Fitbit, you can only know how good an offer that is if you see what amazon charges.Maybe Amazon charges $160 or maybe it charges $106. In this scenario, would he investigate the competing 'offers'? If so, why doesn't he do this with his Jesus claim?
+only half bad 333 I quite agree. And it makes me wonder he how even believes what he is saying or what the nature of his belief is. I wonder if he is even really taking himself seriously.
+teavea10 I suspect he does believe what he's saying and that he's being honest about the nature of his belief, although of course I'm not in a position to do more than idly speculate on this. To me, it looks like Robert is on the horns of an internal moral dilemma. One of those horns is the value he associates with honest truth discovery/justification and the other the value associated with belief conviction. Robert, I would guess, may not yet be able to reflexively recognize this dilemma or substantively consider what the consequences of it might ultimately entail. If Robert strongly self-identifies with and is socially embedded in a religious moral community that aggressively prioritizes the value of conviction, he probably experiences a powerfully intuitive moral sense of prohibition any time something seems like it might possibly challenge his convictions. Ideation that is perceived as "possibly conflicting" in this fashion likely results in thoughts and feelings of a general "this is wrong, I ought not be thinking like this" theme which then fosters cognitive avoidance. He does show some signs of dissonance at the end though, which is always the first sign of someone recognizing such a dilemma or starting to engage with a dilemma's ultimate implications. Unfortunately it's not a guarantee of eventual recognition nor how long such might actually take.
His best offer is the only offer that he's willing to consider. Without a comparator, this makes the offer equivalent to worst offer, bogus offer, or no offer at all.The respectful challenging approach worked fairly well but only given the groundwork of previous conversations with Robert. Perhaps it would have worked better if -- up front-- you got explicit agreement from Robert that believing true things is good or that personal feelings are not reliable indicators of truth.
One of your best, most succinct interviews I've seen. I like that you were a bit more aggressive. He was very nice, yes, and I really feel sorry for him that he's that stuck in not being open to revising his beliefs and questioning them. Perhaps he will as time goes by.
I keep hearing you ask people if there's 'anything they might see, hear or whatever, that would change their mind'. I think that's a problematic way of stating it. Let me explain why I say this, though I may have already mentioned it in one of your other video's comments: It seems to me that when you ask that question, a lot of times the people perceive it as if you're asking whether they think there IS something that would make them change their beliefs. But the question you're really asking is "What hypothetical thing might there be that - if they saw or learned it - might cause them to change their beliefs (or at least confidence in their belief)". I think that's an important distinction to make: the difference between something they can point to and something they can conceive of. I think it might alter their answers and avoid dancing around the point you're trying to get to. As is, they seem to be trying to think of an example that they are AWARE OF that might be problematic to their beliefs. But they have a very difficult time coming up with an answer because, after all, if they knew or could think of an example they might not hold the beliefs they currently do. So it seems that making your question more clear would make it a lot easier for them to come up with an example. Make it obvious that you're asking them to think of a hypothetical example. Granted, sometimes that "hypothetical" might be a real thing that exists, but that they aren't fully aware of (such as contradictions in the bible). Once they understand what you are actually asking, THEN the gate is open to dig deeper into that line of questioning. I hope this made sense. Keep up the great work.
"Don't you think it's important that we determine that both offers are true before we worry about which one is better." That would've been a good question.
+Dustin Gleason Yeah he don't seems to understand that if someone promise him 1$ it's better than someone promising 1000000000$ if the second person doesn't have even 1$ x)
I suppose, one could say: how do you know that your spouse is the 'best offer' or most correct fit for you? Could you take a year off and test out some other relationship to see if you were correct? How would you know? It's obviously not quite like that because in a marriage we're talking about a real person but, since all these religious types often say they have a close personal relationship with their god/prophet, they might think it's similar.
"Could a neutral observer look at the Koran and find truths, and find it corresponding with their reality and walk away thinking that it's true"? ..... This question seemed to completely flummox him. Back in my days as a believer, I think he is what we would refer to as a "babe in Christ", someone who is an excited Christian, yet naive and relatively unlearned in the tactics of defending their faith. He is probably very comfortable in a setting of like minded people, especially when there is a dynamic leader of the group to give the cues and whose direction can be followed without much being required of the person, apart from being a willing and enthusiastic member of the group. But really, he knows next to nothing about why he believes what he believes, nor does it seem that any independent thought has gone into the formulation of his belief system. In my view, from listening to all three of these interviews, he has been "saved" from nothing more than the normal anguishes, conflicted feelings and sexual confusion of the typical teenage years, and he has conjured those experiences, in his own mind, into some sort of life-saving redemption story. And he has hung around with the Christians long enough to assimilate a handful of scriptures to use to respond to those peers who might be on the spiritual fence or have never really thought about the whole god thing, but have grown up around it and as a result are likely well predisposed to being receptive to the pitch. In short, he is probably a nice young man who will likely never be able to unchain his mind enough to think deeply about his faith notions. I will be surprised if he talks to you again. He is way out of his comfort zone at this point.
+nyyght7 Yeah, but he already had two passive confrontations with him over the course of one year and it didn't change him one bit apparently... this more aggressive approach was worth a try at least
The way Robert was speaking, and the words he used made me feel like he was hypnotized. He seems really different from the previous videos. Like maybe his shame is driving him a little crazy. He needs purpose in his life before he'll let go of his religion. Something to give him focus, and a sense of purpose other than dogma.
+spacedoohicky I also think he is tied with his religion on account of his sexuality - he mentioned in both previous talks that his 'porn addiction' was cured through Christ and that is a reason why he believes that God is real.
Thulyblu That might be what I meant. He has shame from porn addiction, and that's making him stuck. I don't know if that's what you mean. The promise of an everlasting afterlife is blinding him along with a persistent shame that threatens him losing that afterlife. Kind of a really abusive relationship that religion is imposing on him.
Does this University in San Antonio have a very high percentage of believers, or is that just the impression that we get because only believers are posted? Would Anthony have had far fewer videos if he had gone to NYU for example, or is this just a European stereotype?
Anyone who has watched my livestreams would probably agree that the majority of people I ask (and who agree to speak with) ne believe in a God at this specific university in San Antonio, TX in 2015. I'd guess that 80% identify as God believers. I do have a Playlist of encounters with non-believers if that is of any interest to you.
Anthony Magnabosco Yes, I think that would be interesting. I would hope that they felt the same degree of confidence to express their views as the believers appear to have. I ask this as I read (hope the source is trustworthy) that atheists are seen as the least trustworthy people in the nation.
+Anthony Magnabosco I'll 2nd Tony's prospective interest in seeing some examples of non-believer "interviews" for comparison. ... ...It looks like you've gathered a fair number of these things. Given more time (or a friend studying film/editing) maybe a "greatest hits" compilation/montage could be done, juxtaposing three different "types" ("classic theists", "supernatuarlists," and "non-theists"), splicing tid bits from 10 or 20 in each group and creating a 'three Frankenstiens battle royal" movie?
I think that this University accepts anybody , probably not a real University like we have in G.B , seems more like the equivalent of what we used to call Technical Colleges !.
I can see the more aggressive approach be helpful in this case, because even though Robert behaved like brainwashed, there was no major confidence in it. He was very dispassionately going over the steps of how to respond and sometimes actually pushing in that moment can break the ice.
I would have probed this with a is-this-what-you're-saying-but-correct-me-if-I'm-wrong. Specifically, the best offer idea seems to be a kind of wager. I'd propose that he's maybe suggesting that if we granted that his book had no special likelihood of being true above the other books and vice versa, we should treat each book as equally likely true, and if they are also mutually exclusive accounts, then we should just pick whichever book has the highest offer. That's a very flawed line of argument, but if that's not what was on his mind, I'd want to know, and if it is what was on his mind, it's not too hard to find some of the major stumbling points within it if you think a little further. I think you did break through at that point and may have been able to break through directly from the previous conversation by continuing where you left off, where you said that next time you wanted to unpack faith. However, you stumbled a bit with the 'faith' opportunity because you didn't remind him of that goal (you may not have remembered or have been distracted by the t-shirt), and you stumbled with the wager opportunity because, as you said, you were giving questions boom-boom-boom and being kind of a dick. Having gotten to the wager I think you should have paused a bit yourself, changed your tone, and asked the more usual type of question. The pursuit mentality got to you a little bit, I think, and made it harder to see a good opportunity that worked without that aggression. Being more forceful on the third conversation was not really a bad maneuver. Robert was not obviously shutting down and there was some precedent for you express some frustration. The mere fact that you ended two prior conversations amicably built rapport. Arguably you did drive him into more interesting territory by bringing the problematic questions to mind in quick succession, but once he's driven into that territory, it's probably best to slow down, clarify the language, and identify any problems that remain after that clarification. In this view, we move fast in order to find a better place to slow down.
When Robert was relating in the earlier videos how Jesus relieved him from feelings of guilt associated with an addiction to porn, and how he would have been ashamed to discuss it with his family, am I way off in supposing that he was talking about gay porn?
Is there a reason why you use so many leading questions or suggestive questions, instead of completely open questions? I feel like those leading questions are too confrontational. For me it becomes obvious, what you're leading towards and it closes them up. In other words i would suggest to use more open questions. Why? Where? How? What is....? Can you describe...? For example your first question was really bad in my view. "Does it make your belief more true, that it is forbidden in several states?" That's just a yes/no question. It will not make him think. The answer it too obvious. Instead i feel like asking him why he's wearing this T-shirt would have been more powerfull and would have been less threatening.
+stau ffap Although I agree with you, this more open and passive approach was taken in the previous two talks... and apparently it didn't do much with him
Thulyblu Yes, i have seen those videos. I do not think, that he failed because of the open questions though, but because of the kind of questions. I don't think, that he did a good job at leading him towards seeing the contradictions. Sometimes he was close though, like when they talked about the truth behind his faith claims. Obviously it's not easy, but i still feel, that those leading questions close people down.
What seems normal to one human can many times be considered not normal for another. Everyone thinks their normality is more reasonable and we get upset when we discover that other cultures are no more or less reasonable than our own. When people study different mainstream religious bibles and text and compare them they discover these cultural similarities. Humans once they've met their basic needs, food, water, shelter, etc. want nothing more than to be loved and cared for, so... for Robert the bible and god represents that offer of love, care and security that he needs. This offer of love and care is also proposed in politics but it only succeeds temporarely. If we could create a society that integrates love and care into it's design and way of operating then perhaps humans would no longer feel the need for protection from a higher being...
+Anthony Magnabosco Have you ever had an encounter with someone that was both a theist and had good reasons for being one based upon your proposed epistemic criteria? You seem extremely respectful and genuine. I'm very interested in having a discussion with you at some point. Maybe a Google hangout or something of the sort. I'm a Christian that believes he has good reasons to be one and maintains this belief for those very same reasons.
You know what's sad? I use to be like that a couple of months ago, probably even worse then Robert, because I was willing to die for christ (as you should being a christian); but since I'm a truth seeker and very skeptical; I saw that the evidence of christianity is a romanized establishment during the Jewish revolt. Once I first saw that the new testament contradicts the old severely, hence why the Jews don't believe in jesus even though they were desperately waiting on a Messiah during the reign of the Roman empire; I couldn't deny the facts. Then looking down the historical path in which is left (which is called the past), I saw so many connections to Roman and Greek thought. In fact, one of the people christians use to prove that we have secular sources outside of christianity about "jesus christ" is the historian named Josephus flavius. Supposably he was a Jewish historian, but if you do a little research you can see he was a Hellenistic Jew and later was connected to the Flavian dynasty, hence the name Flavius. The Flavian dynasty was a Roman imperial dynasty, which ruled the Roman Empire between 69 AD and 96 AD, encompassing the reigns of Vespasian, and his two sons Titus and Domitian. These are exactly the same dates in which some of the writings of christianity were written and I'm talking about Paul's writings. Paul's writings are the earliest christian literature period! You even see a lot of parallels in the writings of Paul, like preaching in Asia minor and other romanized Nations like Galatia, Colossae, Ephesus, Thessalonica and obviously Rome. You also see that Paul was connected to the Roman empire as well. That explains why the New Testament was canonized during the council of Rome in the reign of Pope Damasus (AD 366-384). Even the early church father's that christians use are either Greek or Roman, funny uh? These are a couple of discrepancies I encountered while doing my own research, while seeking for the Truth. I know this may seem very difficult, but CHRISTIAN start thinking for yourself and stop believing what you have heard, because it might be false. Is not TRUTH more valuable then LIES? You need to investigate these things and forget what anyone says, even me!
8:00 "Even if I'm not correct, what the Bible offers is much better than a heaven, 72 virgins or a paradise that somebody might offer" At least he's open. He also sees the circularity. You're the expert Anthony, but my gut at this point was screaming to just jump straight down to "So are you saying you hope God exists because it's the best offer, rather than because you know he exists?" I really liked the question about asking him to set aside a year to study the Qur'an and be open to it being true, because this is what Christians constantly ask non-Christians to do, "just open yourself to God!"
You assumed that the best offer was whatever is true- but what he said was that truth doesn't matter as much as the "offer". ( 3:36 ) I wish you had listened more carefully so you could gasp at the assertion that the truth is unimportant next to what is being promised by the story. He scoffed at the Muslim offer of 72 virgins (perhaps thinking it was more crass and petty than heaven with Jesus? I don't know) and you took it back to asking about what's true- but he doesn't care about what's true! The two of you talked past eachother and were addressing different things. If you listened you could have pointed out how there are things that are true and yet have horrible offers or outcomes, so we don't assign belief to whatever has the best outcome. Truth has nothing to do with outcome.
It's sad that this kid was not educated in logic before he got to college. He doesn't have food answers for the question, he just keeps asserting things he has heard in church or from other Christians. "Jesus is the best offer," "I know the Bible is true because it's history," "the 12 apostles were all martyred," "500 people witnessed Jesus after he resurrected." Of course, the claims that the apostles were martyred are nonsense. Scholars have shown that such claims are legends invented by church leaders long after the apostles would have died. And this kid hasn't considered the fact none of the gospels were written by eyewitnesses, nor do we know a single one of the supposed 500 people who saw a resurrected Jesus. These are all just elements of a story. Might as well interview a 5 year old who believes in Santa and let him talk about how when he wakes up on Christmas morning he finds all the presents he asked Santa for when he met him at the mall.
Should of walked away from this one, he has blunt head trauma from a THICK book(the bible), I feel like I'm dumber from watching this video and listening to Robert. Err Derp!
Best offer could mean that he has a social network and friends with the belief. It could mean he likes the feeling of being persecuted which is why he wears that shirt. Sounds to me he is in to deep to get out. Go hard or go home. He's going hard.
He's using words in a way that doesn't come from him. Just one example: "the bible is true IN every single person". That's a mantra designed to stop him from thinking. Something is true or it isn't.
His approach to the topic was so similar to Wally's that I thought it was the same person, shades and all. I think that they're so far beyond reason and validity in their beliefs that they're not worth talking to about the subject. I would just walk away. Maybe making him think about his words more and asking where thoughts come from is the best approach to him instead of claiming him to be not worthy of conversation.
He only shown conviction to the belief to be a truly worthwhile value, and you dismantled his arguments outside of that. I think they would see each others and say that the other guy did a good job keeping the faith. They appear to be aware of your goal in the conversation, and simply not give in to your logic. The defensive stance doesn't allow for honesty in viewing their beliefs. I would guess that he is actually much more defensive than his smile and laid back demeanor lets on.
True, you do wonder what the stunned expression at the end when Anthony "broke through" some really meant, and how much he thinks about the discussion and now critically he learns to observe the beliefs he was defending.
Does anyone else see the face in the clouds over his right shoulder? This is agency, and agency combined with the brain's capacity for belief makes religion possible.
He thinks that a neutral party should look at both sides in regards to Islam and Christianity, yet is not willing to do it himself. Nice bubble he's got himself into.
4:20 the bible says "shut up and do as you're told and questions result in hell and don't talk to anyone called anthony" - why aren't you suspicious of the bible? "he's the most wonderful and glorious being" give the guy a slap please. so, i have to bribe you to change your mind? the reward you are expecting (i bet he can't see anything wrong with that) is going to be that great that you'd turn down something i could actually hand over? this guy really fell for the scam. i bet he believes there is no way he could be going to hell, right?
I so wanna watch a conversation between you and a priest. Or an imam. I'd bet my money that the theist will get mad and walk away thinking that you are the devil trying to trick them into thinking unholy thoughts...
As far as the better offer I have one you could give him. If there was a faith that promised you eternal life with the greatest happiness beyond imagination would that sound good? Obviously very close to the Christian Heaven. Now, in this faith, if you live a life of piety, following the holy text to the letter, not only will you enter into this paradise but also your family and closest friends will be guaranteed to meet you there when their time comes through the sheer virtue of the pious life you lead. That would seem like a better offer to me. As far as I know this is an offer in the Qur'an. However it is reserved for martyrs so there's a catch. I left out the virgins because he said he doesn't care about that part, but I think the great happiness beyond imagination covers it.
+Nunya Bidness after watching more of your videos, I can see that you most likely have plenty of knowledge on it and likely didn't take it there on purpose. I love your methods, and I'm learning a lot.
I feel that in the comments a lot of people lack sympathy for the people you talk to. you can tell that Andrew has clearly been indoctrinated, and brainwashed into thinking that his behavior is sinful, and that he will be going to hell if he doesn't believe in his book. I think commenters give people too much credit to think that it is so easy to just shed these ideas like a pair of clothes.
I know that it is not easy, and for myself at least, part of my mocking of such Christians is me mocking my formal self. I know EXACTLY how "easy" it is; it is difficult.
Robert is delusional. The god of Abraham is the god of the Jews, the Christians, the Muslims, the Bahá'í Faith, the Bábisms, the Samaritanism, the Yazdânism (the Yezidi, Yarsani and Alevi faiths), the Shabakism, the Mandeanisms, the Druzes, the Rastafari and more.
I'll not only match Jesus' offer, but I'll add a cookie. There, mine is the best offer. You may worship me now.
Catholics already offer a cookie, you should offer 2...
@@jackbarman7063 heheh. me likey.
I once played the lead role in the play 'Sister Mary Ignatius Explains It All for You' (I was a nun... with a gun... and an Adam's Apple!). Her 'pet' Thomas would always get a cookie for memorizing her dogma (for example: 'The List of People Who Are Going To Hell', like Big John Holmes and Mick Jagger). :D
What flavour cookie?
"this has even got me a little confused."
That's because he was asked to think.
"Even if it's not true, it's the best offer". It would appear that organized religion (using a method made popular by organized crime) made Robert an offer he couldn't refuse.
"every day Jesus satisfies me......"
dude, phrasing!!!!
He has a close personal relationship with Jesus.
Sometimes Jesus satisfies him up to 3 times a day
no man 'comes' to the Father but by him
The lack of curiosity is terrifying.
Facts & logic be damned. Determined to remain uninformed.
"Best Offer"? I wonder if he's ever heard of "Too good to be true".
The idea of 'Best offer' is interesting. Maybe you could give an analogy whereby you're at Best Buy and they have a sign saying that they have the 'Best Price' (best offer) on a Fitbit or a set of headphones. If he were in the store, how could he validate (or invalidate) Best Buys claim to see if it was indeed the best offer or would he just accept that thats a good price having not seen any other price? One option would be to look it up on Amazon, or just google the item to see how much everyone else is selling it for. The idea of a 'Best Offer' can only be claimed if you know what ELSE is on offer. If Best Buy is charging $140 for a Fitbit, you can only know how good an offer that is if you see what amazon charges.Maybe Amazon charges $160 or maybe it charges $106. In this scenario, would he investigate the competing 'offers'? If so, why doesn't he do this with his Jesus claim?
+limey spicegirl Yup, you nailed it - but, the analogy would be lost on him...
Sorry to grave dig old responses but that analogy is great and I just wanted to give you a thank you for it :)
Robert does NOT know what the fuck he's saying or talking about.
+only half bad 333
I quite agree. And it makes me wonder he how even believes what he is saying or what the nature of his belief is. I wonder if he is even really taking himself seriously.
+teavea10
I suspect he does believe what he's saying and that he's being honest about the nature of his belief, although of course I'm not in a position to do more than idly speculate on this.
To me, it looks like Robert is on the horns of an internal moral dilemma. One of those horns is the value he associates with honest truth discovery/justification and the other the value associated with belief conviction. Robert, I would guess, may not yet be able to reflexively recognize this dilemma or substantively consider what the consequences of it might ultimately entail. If Robert strongly self-identifies with and is socially embedded in a religious moral community that aggressively prioritizes the value of conviction, he probably experiences a powerfully intuitive moral sense of prohibition any time something seems like it might possibly challenge his convictions. Ideation that is perceived as "possibly conflicting" in this fashion likely results in thoughts and feelings of a general "this is wrong, I ought not be thinking like this" theme which then fosters cognitive avoidance.
He does show some signs of dissonance at the end though, which is always the first sign of someone recognizing such a dilemma or starting to engage with a dilemma's ultimate implications. Unfortunately it's not a guarantee of eventual recognition nor how long such might actually take.
I like this more aggressive approach style the more conversations you have with an interlocutor
His best offer is the only offer that he's willing to consider. Without a comparator, this makes the offer equivalent to worst offer, bogus offer, or no offer at all.The respectful challenging approach worked fairly well but only given the groundwork of previous conversations with Robert. Perhaps it would have worked better if -- up front-- you got explicit agreement from Robert that believing true things is good or that personal feelings are not reliable indicators of truth.
One of your best, most succinct interviews I've seen. I like that you were a bit more aggressive. He was very nice, yes, and I really feel sorry for him that he's that stuck in not being open to revising his beliefs and questioning them. Perhaps he will as time goes by.
I keep hearing you ask people if there's 'anything they might see, hear or whatever, that would change their mind'. I think that's a problematic way of stating it. Let me explain why I say this, though I may have already mentioned it in one of your other video's comments:
It seems to me that when you ask that question, a lot of times the people perceive it as if you're asking whether they think there IS something that would make them change their beliefs. But the question you're really asking is "What hypothetical thing might there be that - if they saw or learned it - might cause them to change their beliefs (or at least confidence in their belief)".
I think that's an important distinction to make: the difference between something they can point to and something they can conceive of. I think it might alter their answers and avoid dancing around the point you're trying to get to. As is, they seem to be trying to think of an example that they are AWARE OF that might be problematic to their beliefs. But they have a very difficult time coming up with an answer because, after all, if they knew or could think of an example they might not hold the beliefs they currently do.
So it seems that making your question more clear would make it a lot easier for them to come up with an example. Make it obvious that you're asking them to think of a hypothetical example. Granted, sometimes that "hypothetical" might be a real thing that exists, but that they aren't fully aware of (such as contradictions in the bible). Once they understand what you are actually asking, THEN the gate is open to dig deeper into that line of questioning.
I hope this made sense. Keep up the great work.
This guy is just parroting stuff that he's been fed. No real introspection at all.
Jesus "satisfied" him. Lol
+only half bad 333 Theres a Southpark episode about that where Cartman sings about Jesus satisfying him. lol
Everyday. What a player.
every. day.
Sometimes even 3x a day.
Now that’s just nasty...lol
"Don't you think it's important that we determine that both offers are true before we worry about which one is better." That would've been a good question.
+Dustin Gleason Yeah he don't seems to understand that if someone promise him 1$ it's better than someone promising 1000000000$ if the second person doesn't have even 1$ x)
I'll see your Jesus and raise you a cookie.
+Gnomefro
only a sith deals in cookies... (come to the dark side, we got cookies)
Catholics already do that... We must offer 2 cookies in response.
This is one the most disciplined, rigorous, unrelenting examples of SE on the internets. 👍🏻
Dennis Lees Check out my Top Ten if you have time.
I watched all three video with robert, and he seems to be getting worse... He is lost, and completely delusional. :O/
Katalyzt
I suppose, one could say: how do you know that your spouse is the 'best offer' or most correct fit for you? Could you take a year off and test out some other relationship to see if you were correct? How would you know? It's obviously not quite like that because in a marriage we're talking about a real person but, since all these religious types often say they have a close personal relationship with their god/prophet, they might think it's similar.
A guy like this wouldn't get any chicks here in Europe. He would be seen as a freak.
lol. is that our motivation? am i doing something wrong? what part of europe, i'm in the backwater of the UK.
I don't think Robert is a deep thinker, yet he keeps coming back for more.
"Jesus satisfies me every day."
😐
Do the people you talk to watch your videos online and ever give you feedback?
"Could a neutral observer look at the Koran and find truths, and find it corresponding with their reality and walk away thinking that it's true"? .....
This question seemed to completely flummox him. Back in my days as a believer, I think he is what we would refer to as a "babe in Christ", someone who is an excited Christian, yet naive and relatively unlearned in the tactics of defending their faith. He is probably very comfortable in a setting of like minded people, especially when there is a dynamic leader of the group to give the cues and whose direction can be followed without much being required of the person, apart from being a willing and enthusiastic member of the group. But really, he knows next to nothing about why he believes what he believes, nor does it seem that any independent thought has gone into the formulation of his belief system. In my view, from listening to all three of these interviews, he has been "saved" from nothing more than the normal anguishes, conflicted feelings and sexual confusion of the typical teenage years, and he has conjured those experiences, in his own mind, into some sort of life-saving redemption story. And he has hung around with the Christians long enough to assimilate a handful of scriptures to use to respond to those peers who might be on the spiritual fence or have never really thought about the whole god thing, but have grown up around it and as a result are likely well predisposed to being receptive to the pitch.
In short, he is probably a nice young man who will likely never be able to unchain his mind enough to think deeply about his faith notions. I will be surprised if he talks to you again. He is way out of his comfort zone at this point.
Great comment.
Isn't the offer 'accept or go to hell'?
Liked it. But, I like your more passive confrontations. It seems to more resonate with the repentant.
+nyyght7
Yeah, but he already had two passive confrontations with him over the course of one year and it didn't change him one bit apparently... this more aggressive approach was worth a try at least
The way Robert was speaking, and the words he used made me feel like he was hypnotized. He seems really different from the previous videos. Like maybe his shame is driving him a little crazy. He needs purpose in his life before he'll let go of his religion. Something to give him focus, and a sense of purpose other than dogma.
+spacedoohicky
I also think he is tied with his religion on account of his sexuality - he mentioned in both previous talks that his 'porn addiction' was cured through Christ and that is a reason why he believes that God is real.
Thulyblu That might be what I meant. He has shame from porn addiction, and that's making him stuck. I don't know if that's what you mean.
The promise of an everlasting afterlife is blinding him along with a persistent shame that threatens him losing that afterlife. Kind of a really abusive relationship that religion is imposing on him.
spacedoohicky
Yes that is what I meant. Additionally, Christianity offers the cure... It broke his legs and sold him crutches...
+Thulyblu you mean sold him snake oil...
Does this University in San Antonio have a very high percentage of believers, or is that just the impression that we get because only believers are posted? Would Anthony have had far fewer videos if he had gone to NYU for example, or is this just a European stereotype?
Anyone who has watched my livestreams would probably agree that the majority of people I ask (and who agree to speak with) ne believe in a God at this specific university in San Antonio, TX in 2015. I'd guess that 80% identify as God believers. I do have a Playlist of encounters with non-believers if that is of any interest to you.
Anthony Magnabosco
Yes, I think that would be interesting. I would hope that they felt the same degree of confidence to express their views as the believers appear to have. I ask this as I read (hope the source is trustworthy) that atheists are seen as the least trustworthy people in the nation.
+Anthony Magnabosco I'll 2nd Tony's prospective interest in seeing some examples of non-believer "interviews" for comparison. ... ...It looks like you've gathered a fair number of these things. Given more time (or a friend studying film/editing) maybe a "greatest hits" compilation/montage could be done, juxtaposing three different "types" ("classic theists", "supernatuarlists," and "non-theists"), splicing tid bits from 10 or 20 in each group and creating a 'three Frankenstiens battle royal" movie?
I think that this University accepts anybody , probably not a real University like we have in G.B , seems more like the equivalent of what we used to call Technical Colleges !.
I can see the more aggressive approach be helpful in this case, because even though Robert behaved like brainwashed, there was no major confidence in it. He was very dispassionately going over the steps of how to respond and sometimes actually pushing in that moment can break the ice.
Your post game analysis was spot on.
He said that Jesus helps with his homework and he satisfies. Good stuff. Anthony I really enjoyed the approach this go around.
I would have probed this with a is-this-what-you're-saying-but-correct-me-if-I'm-wrong.
Specifically, the best offer idea seems to be a kind of wager. I'd propose that he's maybe suggesting that if we granted that his book had no special likelihood of being true above the other books and vice versa, we should treat each book as equally likely true, and if they are also mutually exclusive accounts, then we should just pick whichever book has the highest offer.
That's a very flawed line of argument, but if that's not what was on his mind, I'd want to know, and if it is what was on his mind, it's not too hard to find some of the major stumbling points within it if you think a little further.
I think you did break through at that point and may have been able to break through directly from the previous conversation by continuing where you left off, where you said that next time you wanted to unpack faith.
However, you stumbled a bit with the 'faith' opportunity because you didn't remind him of that goal (you may not have remembered or have been distracted by the t-shirt), and you stumbled with the wager opportunity because, as you said, you were giving questions boom-boom-boom and being kind of a dick. Having gotten to the wager I think you should have paused a bit yourself, changed your tone, and asked the more usual type of question. The pursuit mentality got to you a little bit, I think, and made it harder to see a good opportunity that worked without that aggression.
Being more forceful on the third conversation was not really a bad maneuver. Robert was not obviously shutting down and there was some precedent for you express some frustration. The mere fact that you ended two prior conversations amicably built rapport.
Arguably you did drive him into more interesting territory by bringing the problematic questions to mind in quick succession, but once he's driven into that territory, it's probably best to slow down, clarify the language, and identify any problems that remain after that clarification. In this view, we move fast in order to find a better place to slow down.
did Robert ever come back for a 4th talk?
Jesus satisfies... He's the original Snickers gangster.
When Robert was relating in the earlier videos how Jesus relieved him from feelings of guilt associated with an addiction to porn, and how he would have been ashamed to discuss it with his family, am I way off in supposing that he was talking about gay porn?
oh that goofy self righteous smirk.
"It's almost feeling circular..."
"............Perhaps..................."
Oh Jesus, you came and you gave without taking, and we sent you away oh Jesus.
Is there a reason why you use so many leading questions or suggestive questions, instead of completely open questions? I feel like those leading questions are too confrontational. For me it becomes obvious, what you're leading towards and it closes them up.
In other words i would suggest to use more open questions. Why? Where? How? What is....? Can you describe...?
For example your first question was really bad in my view. "Does it make your belief more true, that it is forbidden in several states?" That's just a yes/no question. It will not make him think. The answer it too obvious. Instead i feel like asking him why he's wearing this T-shirt would have been more powerfull and would have been less threatening.
+stau ffap
Although I agree with you, this more open and passive approach was taken in the previous two talks... and apparently it didn't do much with him
Thulyblu
Yes, i have seen those videos. I do not think, that he failed because of the open questions though, but because of the kind of questions. I don't think, that he did a good job at leading him towards seeing the contradictions. Sometimes he was close though, like when they talked about the truth behind his faith claims.
Obviously it's not easy, but i still feel, that those leading questions close people down.
What seems normal to one human can many times be considered not normal for another. Everyone thinks their normality is more reasonable and we get upset when we discover that other cultures are no more or less reasonable than our own. When people study different mainstream religious bibles and text and compare them they discover these cultural similarities. Humans once they've met their basic needs, food, water, shelter, etc. want nothing more than to be loved and cared for, so... for Robert the bible and god represents that offer of love, care and security that he needs. This offer of love and care is also proposed in politics but it only succeeds temporarely. If we could create a society that integrates love and care into it's design and way of operating then perhaps humans would no longer feel the need for protection from a higher being...
Never seen Anthony "in the face" approach before :D
I've built walls with bricks with more intelligence than Robert. That University has to be ashamed.
+Anthony Magnabosco Have you ever had an encounter with someone that was both a theist and had good reasons for being one based upon your proposed epistemic criteria? You seem extremely respectful and genuine. I'm very interested in having a discussion with you at some point. Maybe a Google hangout or something of the sort. I'm a Christian that believes he has good reasons to be one and maintains this belief for those very same reasons.
You know what's sad? I use to be like that a couple of months ago, probably even worse then Robert, because I was willing to die for christ (as you should being a christian); but since I'm a truth seeker and very skeptical; I saw that the evidence of christianity is a romanized establishment during the Jewish revolt. Once I first saw that the new testament contradicts the old severely, hence why the Jews don't believe in jesus even though they were desperately waiting on a Messiah during the reign of the Roman empire; I couldn't deny the facts. Then looking down the historical path in which is left (which is called the past), I saw so many connections to Roman and Greek thought. In fact, one of the people christians use to prove that we have secular sources outside of christianity about "jesus christ" is the historian named Josephus flavius. Supposably he was a Jewish historian, but if you do a little research you can see he was a Hellenistic Jew and later was connected to the Flavian dynasty, hence the name Flavius. The Flavian dynasty was a Roman imperial dynasty, which ruled the Roman Empire between 69 AD and 96 AD, encompassing the reigns of Vespasian, and his two sons Titus and Domitian. These are exactly the same dates in which some of the writings of christianity were written and I'm talking about Paul's writings. Paul's writings are the earliest christian literature period! You even see a lot of parallels in the writings of Paul, like preaching in Asia minor and other romanized Nations like Galatia, Colossae, Ephesus, Thessalonica and obviously Rome. You also see that Paul was connected to the Roman empire as well. That explains why the New Testament was canonized during the council of Rome in the reign of Pope Damasus (AD 366-384). Even the early church father's that christians use are either Greek or Roman, funny uh? These are a couple of discrepancies I encountered while doing my own research, while seeking for the Truth. I know this may seem very difficult, but CHRISTIAN start thinking for yourself and stop believing what you have heard, because it might be false. Is not TRUTH more valuable then LIES? You need to investigate these things and forget what anyone says, even me!
in his homework? What the fuck is he talking about?
I've thoroughly enjoyed this set of videos. He is a nice guy, but extremely brainwashed. I think he needs Darrel Ray more than he needs Jesus though.
8:00 "Even if I'm not correct, what the Bible offers is much better than a heaven, 72 virgins or a paradise that somebody might offer"
At least he's open. He also sees the circularity. You're the expert Anthony, but my gut at this point was screaming to just jump straight down to "So are you saying you hope God exists because it's the best offer, rather than because you know he exists?"
I really liked the question about asking him to set aside a year to study the Qur'an and be open to it being true, because this is what Christians constantly ask non-Christians to do, "just open yourself to God!"
lol Socrates stayed at home today and Hitchens showed up.
grinning zombie...scary lol
Yikes! Defensiveness written all over him. I'm glad this experiment in aggressive SE didn't last.
Man, are you sure these kids are in college?
If he was to say the same things about a book written by Charles Dickens, or Hemingway or any other author we would be putting him in hospital.
Poor Robert has been drinking the koolaid.
You assumed that the best offer was whatever is true- but what he said was that truth doesn't matter as much as the "offer". ( 3:36 ) I wish you had listened more carefully so you could gasp at the assertion that the truth is unimportant next to what is being promised by the story. He scoffed at the Muslim offer of 72 virgins (perhaps thinking it was more crass and petty than heaven with Jesus? I don't know) and you took it back to asking about what's true- but he doesn't care about what's true! The two of you talked past eachother and were addressing different things.
If you listened you could have pointed out how there are things that are true and yet have horrible offers or outcomes, so we don't assign belief to whatever has the best outcome. Truth has nothing to do with outcome.
That cloud right beside his head looks just like a face!
It's sad that this kid was not educated in logic before he got to college. He doesn't have food answers for the question, he just keeps asserting things he has heard in church or from other Christians. "Jesus is the best offer," "I know the Bible is true because it's history," "the 12 apostles were all martyred," "500 people witnessed Jesus after he resurrected." Of course, the claims that the apostles were martyred are nonsense. Scholars have shown that such claims are legends invented by church leaders long after the apostles would have died. And this kid hasn't considered the fact none of the gospels were written by eyewitnesses, nor do we know a single one of the supposed 500 people who saw a resurrected Jesus. These are all just elements of a story.
Might as well interview a 5 year old who believes in Santa and let him talk about how when he wakes up on Christmas morning he finds all the presents he asked Santa for when he met him at the mall.
He was just gonna keep coming back until Anthony made him famous
Should of walked away from this one, he has blunt head trauma from a THICK book(the bible), I feel like I'm dumber from watching this video and listening to Robert. Err Derp!
Best offer could mean that he has a social network and friends with the belief. It could mean he likes the feeling of being persecuted which is why he wears that shirt. Sounds to me he is in to deep to get out. Go hard or go home. He's going hard.
7:46 Christopher Walken XD
He's using words in a way that doesn't come from him. Just one example: "the bible is true IN every single person". That's a mantra designed to stop him from thinking. Something is true or it isn't.
It is so sad to see this blind faith in a young person
He thinks Jeysus actually wrote a book 🤦🏿
No one said that
His approach to the topic was so similar to Wally's that I thought it was the same person, shades and all. I think that they're so far beyond reason and validity in their beliefs that they're not worth talking to about the subject. I would just walk away.
Maybe making him think about his words more and asking where thoughts come from is the best approach to him instead of claiming him to be not worthy of conversation.
Perhaps both men would benefit from watching the other persons' interview.
He only shown conviction to the belief to be a truly worthwhile value, and you dismantled his arguments outside of that. I think they would see each others and say that the other guy did a good job keeping the faith.
They appear to be aware of your goal in the conversation, and simply not give in to your logic. The defensive stance doesn't allow for honesty in viewing their beliefs.
I would guess that he is actually much more defensive than his smile and laid back demeanor lets on.
+K Murph Toward the end I think it was starting to break through a bit.
True, you do wonder what the stunned expression at the end when Anthony "broke through" some really meant, and how much he thinks about the discussion and now critically he learns to observe the beliefs he was defending.
I would say that the conversation isn't likely to have made his conviction greater towards these beliefs.
Does anyone else see the face in the clouds over his right shoulder? This is agency, and agency combined with the brain's capacity for belief makes religion possible.
He thinks that a neutral party should look at both sides in regards to Islam and Christianity, yet is not willing to do it himself. Nice bubble he's got himself into.
That's not accurate.
Didn't he say that he wouldn't give up his bible and not read a competing holy book but then say that Muslims should?
4:20 the bible says "shut up and do as you're told and questions result in hell and don't talk to anyone called anthony" - why aren't you suspicious of the bible?
"he's the most wonderful and glorious being" give the guy a slap please.
so, i have to bribe you to change your mind? the reward you are expecting (i bet he can't see anything wrong with that) is going to be that great that you'd turn down something i could actually hand over? this guy really fell for the scam. i bet he believes there is no way he could be going to hell, right?
This Marxist athiest dude loses every debate.
''Jesus satisfies'' ''Mohammad satisfies'' LOL a Mars Bar satisfies .
A god a day' helps you work rest and pray.
Nigerian prince scams are great offers too!
Sad that he and people like him has no thoughts of their own. Having no belief satisfies me.
I so wanna watch a conversation between you and a priest. Or an imam. I'd bet my money that the theist will get mad and walk away thinking that you are the devil trying to trick them into thinking unholy thoughts...
As far as the better offer I have one you could give him.
If there was a faith that promised you eternal life with the greatest happiness beyond imagination would that sound good? Obviously very close to the Christian Heaven. Now, in this faith, if you live a life of piety, following the holy text to the letter, not only will you enter into this paradise but also your family and closest friends will be guaranteed to meet you there when their time comes through the sheer virtue of the pious life you lead. That would seem like a better offer to me.
As far as I know this is an offer in the Qur'an. However it is reserved for martyrs so there's a catch. I left out the virgins because he said he doesn't care about that part, but I think the great happiness beyond imagination covers it.
+Nunya Bidness after watching more of your videos, I can see that you most likely have plenty of knowledge on it and likely didn't take it there on purpose. I love your methods, and I'm learning a lot.
I feel that in the comments a lot of people lack sympathy for the people you talk to. you can tell that Andrew has clearly been indoctrinated, and brainwashed into thinking that his behavior is sinful, and that he will be going to hell if he doesn't believe in his book. I think commenters give people too much credit to think that it is so easy to just shed these ideas like a pair of clothes.
I know that it is not easy, and for myself at least, part of my mocking of such Christians is me mocking my formal self. I know EXACTLY how "easy" it is; it is difficult.
Robert is delusional.
The god of Abraham is the god of the Jews, the Christians, the Muslims, the Bahá'í Faith, the Bábisms, the Samaritanism, the Yazdânism (the Yezidi, Yarsani and Alevi faiths), the Shabakism, the Mandeanisms, the Druzes, the Rastafari and more.
Pod person
I am distracted by hot girls passing by