@Jakedelus at these kind of boost levels they last like 2 passes, but yeah we do lots of DBW drift cars and the abilty to hold 18 to 20 psi between shifts or on a handbrake/ clutch application is priceless.
@JestaBl1tz it's what I enjoy about his videos. I like hearing him solve your questions out loud. Sometimes is can get out of wack but he still gives you a great answer.
It is crazy how much you can do with a computer as far as tuning/adjusting an engine in today’s world, a computer can adjust timing to keep a car idling smoothly or to gain horsepower, just about everything. Then add in, that someone else can tie into your computer, wirelessly, and can completely tune your engine with multiple tunings and store them on your computer so you can pull that program up whenever the conditions warrant it. Crazy stuff! Thanks for sharing!
for centrifugal applications, put a sensor on the parachute handle and opon the dump valve when the parachutes go out. thats usually a couple tenths before the finish line.
Good thinking, maybe the auto deploy circuit could be used in parallel. If I recall the wagon will pop em out automatically at the end or when she gets out of shape during the pass. 👌
My understanding is with the valve open the turbo shaft speed will be greater and basically cheat the spool up the way your wanting to use it. So when the gate shuts. Boom instant boost theoretically. I know this will work once tuned.
I'm not sure about that. Yes it will increase shaft speed with the open gate. But look at it like this: In the normal case (without Steve's electronic gate on the intake) you need a certain air mass spinning the turbine wheel to build boost. Let's say he has 30 000rpm shaft speed. He thought he couldn't reach said mass flow, so he wanted to reduce the load on the compressor to increase shaft speed to let's say 50 000 rpm. It all makes sense up to here. But to this point we've only looked at shaft speed. We have theoretically achieved a higher shaft speed (50 000 rpm) with the same mass flow on the exhaust side that couldn't give us sufficient boost. If we close the gate now, there suddenly will be load on the compressor, but no real change in flow on the exhaust side, so shaft speed would drop very quickly down to the 30 000 rpm. Because we'd basically rely on the inertia of the turbo to keep us above 30 000 rpm. I loved the idea he had, but I was a little doubtful from the beginning. I think to produce reliable boost at a certain launch rpm you need to work with your rpm and how the 2-step is set up (how much the ignition is retarded and how rich the mixture is)
You dont hide any thing! Contining to breaking the ice of the MIND. i like that! A chapter with an open mind,making the skill set,having the metal perform,a staight line showing,a small picture of time!
It probably won't change turbo speed much as the compressor bypass opens. The compressor power draw is based on massflow, pressure ratio, and inlet temp. So, as you bypass, compressor mass flow increases as the pressure ratio drops, but the compressor power draw stays about the same and the compressor operating pointends up basically following the constant speed line on the compressor map. The turbine power is also a function of mass flow through the turbine, turbine inlet temperature, and expansion ratio. So timing and wastegate position govern the turbine power production once the engine speed is stable on the 2 step and that will determine the turbo speed achieved when the compressor power demand equals the turbine power production the turbo will run at a constant speed on the two step.
Hi Steve , Great ideas and execution. We worked on this stuff years ago in the days of no computer data, just pencil and paper ( also using throttle valve type w/ gates ( TVWG ). Mid 1970's). The turbo manufacturer will be able to advise what compressor speeds and the highest adiabatic effeciencies are possible, in controllings charge air temperature ( rather than targeting a boost pressure figure ) . Therefore being able to control Ign timing and fuel mix to the enth degree , keeping detonation at bay ) .Holding the Turbochargers at the ideal compressor speed. Working both hot and cold Wastegates. Do you have a compressor map at hand ? The Compressor Map will indicate Speed, Pressure, Efficiency islands. Your efficiency area may occur lower or higher than what you imagine. You need to be able to plot , record Air Density . Give Gale Banks a call, he may help you with density sensing . Have you tested what is happening at the Exh W/Gate while the surge is happening ? (while on the dyno put a graduated rod through the dome of the w/ gate onto the diaphragm hub, sealed against leakage and watch happens in operation ) I've experienced Boost surge and flair related to the pressure it takes to lift a poppet valve off it's seat against varying exhaust gas pressure. If i was in your shoes , i would use TVWGes at the Turbines as well ( you may not need to use CO2 ) , making an easily controlled system ( same valve types and operation )( TVWGs are very smooth in operation . That is when pressure controlled, not by electrics, maybe a difference, plus a different sounding engine ) . Poppet Valve W/Gates have a seat pressure to overcome prior to controlling flow. One way to cure the surge is make the pressure hose and fittings a minimum of dash 6 + , giving quicker response. But then you see a boost control system with dash 1 or 2 hoses, by some manufacturers. some things don't make sense .TVWGs originated in aircraft where the operation is done by hydraulics and altitude sensing. P.S. Back then i wanted to manufacture these type waste gates but did not get to it . I would like to join your Tech sessions but cannot afford the fees, can i pay yearly in a lump sum ? Thanks Steve, Garry Maher, Australia.
I love how you getting this figured out. Looks like it's going to work perfect. And it's awesome how Dewey gets into all the videos one way or another. What an awesome shop dog
I love how you explain things! You don't plan it out, put it on a board, have all the answers to a question before you film. I like hearing you think it out loud and chnage/improve your answer because you just thought of a better way! I like that, it teaches more than just giving a scripted answer. Thanks steve
I get a brain strain just listening to Steve Brain Storm this stuff. 🤪 Glad he has to figure it out and not me. As Always, May God Bless you and yours! 😇
@@auldman Is this your first Steve Morris video? He is still in the process of working out a brand new way of controlling boost spikes during two-step and launch sequence. He is taking us along as he works out the process. He is certainly not a "poor communicator" or "confused," but a Drag Race Engine Innovator & Genius! I find it fascinating watching him work through these R & D things in real time. As Always, May God Bless you and yours! 😇
PID loops in the HVAC world will also drive you nuts. There are also cascading loops that are also confuse the situation. Sometimes the PID will wind itself up and stop solving. Its all magic.
If it is good on THE STAND, IT DOESNT MEAN IT WILL WORK ON THE LAND!!!!! GOOD LUCK , MAJOR MORRIS .... LIGHT THAT CANDLE!!! YOU HAVE AN AIR LEAK!!!! IT'LL BE FIIIIINNNNNNEEEE!!
Absolutely fascinating!! I have been in maintenance position for local stamping plant most my adult life. In Muskegon Michigan. SMEs location. I’m 54 this year. I so enjoy how machines work, and figuring out how to make them work better, if possible. Awesome job!!SME Huge fan!!!
You're light bulb moments when you explain something and instantly understand it better are classic, I do it aswell, I understand, I explain, I understand better! Also wacky wavy inflatable tube arm guys would be way better than paper
On the right track I believe tieing to throttle position is really good idea to get immediate responses to demands of engine and simultaneously with waste gate servos you'll get there. Great videos.
Enjoyed sorting the control logic. Haven't done that since the early days of programming transmission ecu's to perform specific functions on unique vocations.
The answer to your conundrum is to look at a constant speed line on the compressor map, less restriction (opening your valve), allows more compressor flow. More flow moves you to the right on the compressor map, which is moving you away from that surge line. Hope this helps (I am a turbocharger engineer :) )
Steve, thanks for bringing us along for the start. If you put the wagon on the Dyno you might save some time at the track. Once you get it figured out please write a script or PowerPoint to show us how it all works👻👻👻 Your the best, thanks Bill
I have BIG TURBOS, AND I CAN FLY!!! SOMETIMES THE MATH DOESNT ADD UP IN MY HEAD, STEVE! SOMEHOW DEWEY IS MAKING IT ALL BETTER!!! STAY COMPETITIVE, MY RACER!!!!
How about using instead of time alone you combined TPS (throttle position sensors) to actuate dump valve after a certain set time of the run. Would enable you to pedal during run and keep dumps closed but if you reduce TPS after said time say 0.2 before your fastest possible time or after, and TPS sees 10% reduction it would actuate dumps. I would imagine they would be open before your foot got to 0% throttle, reducing stress on blower drive. That would allow you to fight in a pedal battle or finish a run without loosing boost. Fantastic content as always! You’re making us all think more.
For centrifugal supercharger guys one thing that can trigger the electrically controlled BOVs can be the parachute deploy handle. Or have that moment as a point of reference given by some trivial switch like the one for a handbrake in a normal car: open it right then, 0.05s later, whatever.
Great video,very interesting,I try to pick up the concept,and you definitely help with your explanations. Dewey dog knew what was in the tool truck,you trained him well. Thanks for all the videos,I really enjoy them. Good luck with the new setup.
Love the idea and seeing it work. Did you all play with the idea of maybe a different turbine housing\turbine wheel to eliminate driving the turbo so hard? I feel like no matter what the engine would have enough drive pressure to still be capable of any boost numbers that were commanded.
R@D Dear Steve and team The Wagon has brought you such such much joy and grief but has to be the best R & D any high achieving ground breaking team could wish for!🇦🇺🇦🇺
Back in the late 70’s, Gale Banks had a blow through twin turbo setup, that had a shuttle valve in the rear of the air box that enclosed and fed the carburetor. The shuttle valve was referenced to the manifold plenum below the throttle blades so as to open the shuttle valve when the throttle was reduced, to dump boost, unload the compressors and maintain compressor speed. Wonder if the dump valves were connected to open when the trans brake is locked and closed at some rate when the trans brake is released? Rate of closure might be used to tune the launch / boost rise?
Thanks as always Steve understanding how all these systems work and what improvements you need to make constantly to stay ahead of the game. Great viewing.
By allowing the turbo to see higher shaft speed @ a lower targeted boost pressure by bleeding off the intake side probably allows for a much steeper boost ramp on the leave.
I thought the same thing. Ultimately it will follow engine speed for the most part, but that should be higher as well. Leaving on more boost should bog down the engine less leaving, consequently making more boost.
I think its important to explain surge so people understand the issue and how it just destroys turbos. Essentially you need to remember the exhaust gas is spinning the turbine wheel which is on a fixed shaft to the compressor wheel, which im turn is moving more air than the engine can consume. When this happens the compressed air actually blows back down the intake pipe towards the compressor wheel and out the inlet. This creates an incredable amount of strain on the turbines, so this is as much of a reliability fix as it is a performance fix. This was, and possibly is, more commonly seen on a small capacity engine with a very large turbo. The engine simply cannot ingest the air the turbo is producing, resulting is surge, hence the anti surge inlets you see on modern day turbos
There's an underlying problem with this setup: it doesn't measure the mass of air coming into the inlet of the turbo. If you mesure it you can figure out where you are on the turbo map and open the valves accordingly
I think I’m learning something here 🤣 You can actually see Steve thinking stuff through in the background while he is also talking. That’s some dual processing brain power 😘
Interesting test but: Put a controlled chokevalve on the inlet of the turbo. That way you get less air to pump around inside the turbo and it will speed up both faster and easier and to a way higher rpm. As it is now you create loses and they just punish your equipment and are harder to figure out.
I´ll tell you another phenomena that happened to me with turbo. I had this setup that i was not able to control boost on, so in one dynopull i pulled off the wastegate to see if it created any at all. Yup it did, and..... It actually sucked air into the exhaust manifold where the wastegate mounts. Grade my level of suprise right there ;)
Dewey looked like every new tech in America when the tool truck came for their first time!! Once he says yes to a bunch of stuff, he won't run so fast to the door of doom. 😂
the turbo is basically a centrifugal gaspump with a pumpcurve, according this curve you need rpm’s to create the pressure difference however that is accompanied with certain flow, that flow has to go somewhere. Increasing turbo speed alone you have to put the valve at the intake. A butterfly does not have a linear flow control characteristic.
for the centrifugal, have the computer watching the throttle position after a set time so as soon as you start to lift at the end of the pass it would open the gate.
If it's not the RPM it's the smoothness of the airflow, just a theory, but I bet it has something to do with how laminar the airflow is through the turbo. Turbulent vs laminar airflow won't be a black and white it'll be like -100 to +100 and anywhere in between. How turbulent, how laminar, etc.
Originally I was concerned that the rapid opening of the valve at the end of the run could have caused the turbos to over speed. But now I see that all aspects of the valves motion are controlled as they don't seem to move very quickly so no worries. I wonder if the addition of a pressure transducer in the inlet of the turbo as part of a closed loop control of the two/three step control would be an advantage? It would certainly take care of the possible changes of altitude and air density for that part of the process. Using Vacuum at the inlet could also be a factor in varying the tune when under power? Just a thought
Tried to discuss this with guys in the 1980s, and being much younger, I got dismissed. They insisted more volume was needed so that without test equipment, no one was even willing to try. They were chasing turbo lag. Didn’t matter they added the trans brake and couldn't understand why it wouldn't spool up.
@SteveMorris Use the turbo speed as the input with the gate to manage power. Hoding at a specific boost pressure changed the turbo speed and that creates a lost of efficiency and lowers torque under the curve. Control the gates with holding turbo RPM the same, then it is always in the right part of the map you want. Boost pressure would drop in parts of the map, but you will make more power. Boost won't matter as much. Less boost for more power equals efficiency and power! Lower ETs 😊
Maybe I'm wrong, but I would think that by bleeding off too much boost during the 2-step to try and build impeller speed you might actually cause your time to build target boost to be even longer, because without that ramping boost pressure being feed into the engine, you end up will less exhaust pressure to spin the turbos, thus actually taking longer to build up to target boost.
Just watched Fuel Tech hit a dyno record of over 5300hp to the hubs. They utilized the e-gate on the charge pipe the same way… I was like, “yeah, I already learned about that.” 🤙
Work=F X Distance. Air has mass so when you move it by Force you have done work. The Compressor provides the Force. The energy for that Force comes from the Turbine (hot side). Keep your new bleeder valves open as little as possible. Why? Because the less air you move through the bleeder valves, the faster your compressor wheel will spin. Doing less work moving less air unloads the compressor and reduces back pressure on the hot side, allowing the Compressor / Turbine to spin faster. Remember if you cover the exhaust air outlet on a shop vac, the vacuum motor speeds up because it was doing less work, moving less air.
Instead of using the timing, just program the throttle by wire to open the boost gate before it adjusts the actual throttle - in reference to the centrifugal supercharger thing.
As a retired mechanic I always hated everything electrical as I usually ended up being under the dash with the rocker panel in the small of my back. As time marched on it became worse as cars turned into rolling computers with their Cann-buss systems, if I wanted to be an electronics repairman I would have gone to DeVry (although I'm not sure they were even around in the early 70's)
Hi. You could set the waste gates to spin the compressor wheel to a certain speed, (eg 90% of max wheel) and use the straight gate to control the boost/torque engine needs to get of the line. So the hot side waste gates is just there to keep the turbo inside it’s max wheel speed. And straight gate to keep the turbo inside it’s efficiency boost map of the turbo
Steve I was watching Gale Banks explain something something on the new Duramax Turbo inlet side design and how people are screwing up the factory design and major Turbo surging started to be problem with everyones aftermarket inlet designs. Gale did one hell of a job explaining it on RUclips. You think there could be a design flaw on just a open tube type to a specific design tube to prevent this Turbo surge issue?
my guess is you will need to operate it based on turbo speed then boost. you arent seeing what you want to see because you are not in the conditions that cause the problem with 2 step. you got good air sitting in your shop, you need bad air to set this up or see the effect you are expecting.
![BAK Jay - Find Out (For Your Love) [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/10FJO_XBCvY/mqdefault.jpg)
This is one of the best videos I have seen explaining and showing what the Straight Gate is capable of doing
It's the real deal. Spools faster. Ni waste gates hot side. Tuneablitly thru the roof.
i still would use regular e-throttle body. it is allready proven to work in drifting. much fining tuning and easier too with t-body.
@Jakedelus at these kind of boost levels they last like 2 passes, but yeah we do lots of DBW drift cars and the abilty to hold 18 to 20 psi between shifts or on a handbrake/ clutch application is priceless.
Caution you may learn something, is the best line ever
I learn something each time you post...!
That's important to me.
Thankyou..!
Is it me or when steve gets going, you can see hamsters falling off the wheel as his brain gets up to speed.
Its getting worse lol
Dudes damn near falling off the wheel himself. Also brain particulates are getting flung off
@@Chris-hd3yc Used to be my fav INFO guy but now im yelling at the TV watching him lol.
@JestaBl1tz it's what I enjoy about his videos. I like hearing him solve your questions out loud. Sometimes is can get out of wack but he still gives you a great answer.
@@jakemitchell3535 i have written countless questions and answers over the years of watching him and never been replied to or answered lol
It is crazy how much you can do with a computer as far as tuning/adjusting an engine in today’s world, a computer can adjust timing to keep a car idling smoothly or to gain horsepower, just about everything. Then add in,
that someone else can tie into your computer, wirelessly, and can completely tune your engine with multiple tunings and store them on your computer so you can pull that program up whenever the conditions warrant it. Crazy stuff!
Thanks for sharing!
Exactly. It's insane the difference between tuning now and back in the days when everything had to be manually changed or tricks lol
Even on stock vehicles. My dad had a 2019 f150with a 5.0 and gained 140 ftlbs of torque at the wheels with just a tune
for centrifugal applications, put a sensor on the parachute handle and opon the dump valve when the parachutes go out. thats usually a couple tenths before the finish line.
Even on the throttle % WoT vs time back it off from there, as you back off or the lift gate opens before the boost shuts for a softer transition.
Micro switch on the parachute lever so when deployed every thing is open ... simple and effective 👌
Good thinking, maybe the auto deploy circuit could be used in parallel. If I recall the wagon will pop em out automatically at the end or when she gets out of shape during the pass. 👌
Dewey is the ultimate shop dog, he's spoiled rotten lol.
❤Dewey❤ is one handsome boy and wish I his twin.
Dewey rules but you must not have ever seen Clay Millican's dog.
@@SomebodysNephew yes I love both of Clays dogs big time too.
Wow, FuelTechs tuning capabilities are just outstanding. Great video Steve!!
Emtron and Motec can do it also. It is called TQ management.
Steve just blows my mind constantly. I thought I was it running twin Ts and a water intercooler, this is plaid level engine building.
Love all the engine tech Steve. But , I’m really here for the dog. 😂
Dewey Dog FTW. The ultimate shop dog. He even has the Snap On guy bring him munchies
@@matthewmccormick2417 His enthusiasm to get in that van is Only Second to mine at Entering said Van.
Scoober The Goober
My understanding is with the valve open the turbo shaft speed will be greater and basically cheat the spool up the way your wanting to use it. So when the gate shuts. Boom instant boost theoretically. I know this will work once tuned.
Yeah that's what it sounds like.
I'm not sure about that. Yes it will increase shaft speed with the open gate.
But look at it like this:
In the normal case (without Steve's electronic gate on the intake) you need a certain air mass spinning the turbine wheel to build boost. Let's say he has 30 000rpm shaft speed. He thought he couldn't reach said mass flow, so he wanted to reduce the load on the compressor to increase shaft speed to let's say 50 000 rpm.
It all makes sense up to here.
But to this point we've only looked at shaft speed.
We have theoretically achieved a higher shaft speed (50 000 rpm) with the same mass flow on the exhaust side that couldn't give us sufficient boost.
If we close the gate now, there suddenly will be load on the compressor, but no real change in flow on the exhaust side, so shaft speed would drop very quickly down to the 30 000 rpm.
Because we'd basically rely on the inertia of the turbo to keep us above 30 000 rpm.
I loved the idea he had, but I was a little doubtful from the beginning. I think to produce reliable boost at a certain launch rpm you need to work with your rpm and how the 2-step is set up (how much the ignition is retarded and how rich the mixture is)
You dont hide any thing! Contining to breaking the ice of the MIND. i like that! A chapter with an open mind,making the skill set,having the metal perform,a staight line showing,a small picture of time!
It probably won't change turbo speed much as the compressor bypass opens. The compressor power draw is based on massflow, pressure ratio, and inlet temp. So, as you bypass, compressor mass flow increases as the pressure ratio drops, but the compressor power draw stays about the same and the compressor operating pointends up basically following the constant speed line on the compressor map. The turbine power is also a function of mass flow through the turbine, turbine inlet temperature, and expansion ratio. So timing and wastegate position govern the turbine power production once the engine speed is stable on the 2 step and that will determine the turbo speed achieved when the compressor power demand equals the turbine power production the turbo will run at a constant speed on the two step.
Hi Steve , Great ideas and execution. We worked on this stuff years ago in the days of no computer data, just pencil and paper ( also using throttle valve type w/ gates ( TVWG ). Mid 1970's). The turbo manufacturer will be able to advise what compressor speeds and the highest adiabatic effeciencies are possible, in controllings charge air temperature ( rather than targeting a boost pressure figure ) . Therefore being able to control Ign timing and fuel mix to the enth degree , keeping detonation at bay ) .Holding the Turbochargers at the ideal compressor speed. Working both hot and cold Wastegates. Do you have a compressor map at hand ? The Compressor Map will indicate Speed, Pressure, Efficiency islands. Your efficiency area may occur lower or higher than what you imagine. You need to be able to plot , record Air Density . Give Gale Banks a call, he may help you with density sensing . Have you tested what is happening at the Exh W/Gate while the surge is happening ? (while on the dyno put a graduated rod through the dome of the w/ gate onto the diaphragm hub, sealed against leakage and watch happens in operation ) I've experienced Boost surge and flair related to the pressure it takes to lift a poppet valve off it's seat against varying exhaust gas pressure. If i was in your shoes , i would use TVWGes at the Turbines as well ( you may not need to use CO2 ) , making an easily controlled system ( same valve types and operation )( TVWGs are very smooth in operation . That is when pressure controlled, not by electrics, maybe a difference, plus a different sounding engine ) . Poppet Valve W/Gates have a seat pressure to overcome prior to controlling flow. One way to cure the surge is make the pressure hose and fittings a minimum of dash 6 + , giving quicker response. But then you see a boost control system with dash 1 or 2 hoses, by some manufacturers. some things don't make sense .TVWGs originated in aircraft where the operation is done by hydraulics and altitude sensing. P.S. Back then i wanted to manufacture these type waste gates but did not get to it . I would like to join your Tech sessions but cannot afford the fees, can i pay yearly in a lump sum ? Thanks Steve, Garry Maher, Australia.
Professor Julius Sumner Miller eat your heart out. Interesting stuff!! 👌👍🇦🇺
Look at that he even has the tubing color fixed already before he shows us. Steve gets her done and glad ❤Dewy❤ is there to keep the shop rolling.
Awesome detailed work! Some interezting fluid dynamics at work there, Steve! Looking forward to seeing you dial it all in at the track.
I love how you getting this figured out. Looks like it's going to work perfect. And it's awesome how Dewey gets into all the videos one way or another. What an awesome shop dog
Dewey shops SnopOn for Steve ,when Steves busy with the Wagon
I love how you explain things! You don't plan it out, put it on a board, have all the answers to a question before you film. I like hearing you think it out loud and chnage/improve your answer because you just thought of a better way! I like that, it teaches more than just giving a scripted answer. Thanks steve
I get a brain strain just listening to Steve Brain Storm this stuff. 🤪 Glad he has to figure it out and not me. As Always, May God Bless you and yours! 😇
I felt he was confused (or a poor communicator) and therefore made it difficult to understand
"STEVE MORRIS ATTACKS!" IS a pretty good tee shirt design with STEVE AS A " BIG BRAIN" IN THE WAGON WITH LASER BEAMS!!!!
@@Mohawk21-oi1ni I Get It and See It! Awesome Idea! As Always, May God Bless you and yours! 😇
@@auldman Is this your first Steve Morris video? He is still in the process of working out a brand new way of controlling boost spikes during two-step and launch sequence. He is taking us along as he works out the process. He is certainly not a "poor communicator" or "confused," but a Drag Race Engine Innovator & Genius! I find it fascinating watching him work through these R & D things in real time. As Always, May God Bless you and yours! 😇
PID loops in the HVAC world will also drive you nuts. There are also cascading loops that are also confuse the situation. Sometimes the PID will wind itself up and stop solving. Its all magic.
If it is good on THE STAND, IT DOESNT MEAN IT WILL WORK ON THE LAND!!!!! GOOD LUCK , MAJOR MORRIS .... LIGHT THAT CANDLE!!! YOU HAVE AN AIR LEAK!!!! IT'LL BE FIIIIINNNNNNEEEE!!
Absolutely fascinating!!
I have been in maintenance position for local stamping plant most my adult life. In Muskegon Michigan.
SMEs location.
I’m 54 this year.
I so enjoy how machines work, and figuring out how to make them work better, if possible.
Awesome job!!SME
Huge fan!!!
You're light bulb moments when you explain something and instantly understand it better are classic, I do it aswell, I understand, I explain, I understand better! Also wacky wavy inflatable tube arm guys would be way better than paper
Your vibe is infectious, love watching your content!
@shroom9033 look, another Bot
the new valves are actually bleeding off turbo volume to help control or stabilize intake boost
On the right track I believe tieing to throttle position is really good idea to get immediate responses to demands of engine and simultaneously with waste gate servos you'll get there. Great videos.
Enjoyed sorting the control logic. Haven't done that since the early days of programming transmission ecu's to perform specific functions on unique vocations.
Love the new shirt for Dewey. Looks great and it’s a nice gray color
14:26 Steves high dollar fidget spinner.
The answer to your conundrum is to look at a constant speed line on the compressor map, less restriction (opening your valve), allows more compressor flow. More flow moves you to the right on the compressor map, which is moving you away from that surge line.
Hope this helps (I am a turbocharger engineer :) )
Steve, thanks for bringing us along for the start. If you put the wagon on the Dyno you might save some time at the track. Once you get it figured out please write a script or PowerPoint to show us how it all works👻👻👻
Your the best, thanks
Bill
I have BIG TURBOS, AND I CAN FLY!!! SOMETIMES THE MATH DOESNT ADD UP IN MY HEAD, STEVE! SOMEHOW DEWEY IS MAKING IT ALL BETTER!!!
STAY COMPETITIVE, MY RACER!!!!
Wow , that is a lot of good information. Quite interesting , and most appreciated. Thanks.
How about using instead of time alone you combined TPS (throttle position sensors) to actuate dump valve after a certain set time of the run. Would enable you to pedal during run and keep dumps closed but if you reduce TPS after said time say 0.2 before your fastest possible time or after, and TPS sees 10% reduction it would actuate dumps. I would imagine they would be open before your foot got to 0% throttle, reducing stress on blower drive.
That would allow you to fight in a pedal battle or finish a run without loosing boost.
Fantastic content as always!
You’re making us all think more.
For centrifugal supercharger guys one thing that can trigger the electrically controlled BOVs can be the parachute deploy handle. Or have that moment as a point of reference given by some trivial switch like the one for a handbrake in a normal car: open it right then, 0.05s later, whatever.
Great video,very interesting,I try to pick up the concept,and you definitely help with your explanations.
Dewey dog knew what was in the tool truck,you trained him well.
Thanks for all the videos,I really enjoy them.
Good luck with the new setup.
This tuning by computer totally amazes me! I am from the time when tuning was by sound, feel, sight and even smell.
Steve,family, and Dewey,y'all rock! Deweys even got the tool man tied around his paw😂. Thanks for sharing. Peace
Love the idea and seeing it work. Did you all play with the idea of maybe a different turbine housing\turbine wheel to eliminate driving the turbo so hard? I feel like no matter what the engine would have enough drive pressure to still be capable of any boost numbers that were commanded.
Thank you for sharing this and good luck in Norwalk. Thats a good track to run a number🎉
at 25:37 the black ring at the throttle body rotated
Your confidence on camera is getting so much better here lately! Loving the videos man.
R@D
Dear Steve and team
The Wagon has brought you such such much joy and grief but has to be the best R & D any high achieving ground breaking team could wish for!🇦🇺🇦🇺
It'll probably take 900 years of engineering before humanity can fully utilize the usable work produced by these engines.
Awesome explanation on the boost dump. It would seem to be a more controllable deal if the boost surge and blow off valves were electric .
That’s 100% legit. We were not thinking anything like that on forced induction applications back in the late 90’s.
Slick!!
Back in the late 70’s, Gale Banks had a blow through twin turbo setup, that had a shuttle valve in the rear of the air box that enclosed and fed the carburetor. The shuttle valve was referenced to the manifold plenum below the throttle blades so as to open the shuttle valve when the throttle was reduced, to dump boost, unload the compressors and maintain compressor speed.
Wonder if the dump valves were connected to open when the trans brake is locked and closed at some rate when the trans brake is released? Rate of closure might be used to tune the launch / boost rise?
Yup, he did the same thing with Lockjaw as well.
And Mr.Banks is still not done. One Smart dude that doesn't mind telling it and Proving it!
Hold on Steve, I gotta get another beer.
Those valves are currently closing too slowly with the stepper motors. You'll be at half track before it makes boost.
Thanks as always Steve understanding how all these systems work and what improvements you need to make constantly to stay ahead of the game. Great viewing.
So awesome to have the support from fuel-tech like that.
WE know it will work at least ONCE!!!......UNTIL IT DOESNT!! GOOD LUCK , CAPTAIN MORRIS!!!
Dogs are so awesome.
By allowing the turbo to see higher shaft speed @ a lower targeted boost pressure by bleeding off the intake side probably allows for a much steeper boost ramp on the leave.
I thought the same thing. Ultimately it will follow engine speed for the most part, but that should be higher as well.
Leaving on more boost should bog down the engine less leaving, consequently making more boost.
Mad MAX WOULD BE PROUD OF THIS TECH!
Do you think you may want an air filter for the new boost gates? I don't know what filter can handle the boost but can it ever suck dirt ?
I think its important to explain surge so people understand the issue and how it just destroys turbos. Essentially you need to remember the exhaust gas is spinning the turbine wheel which is on a fixed shaft to the compressor wheel, which im turn is moving more air than the engine can consume. When this happens the compressed air actually blows back down the intake pipe towards the compressor wheel and out the inlet. This creates an incredable amount of strain on the turbines, so this is as much of a reliability fix as it is a performance fix. This was, and possibly is, more commonly seen on a small capacity engine with a very large turbo. The engine simply cannot ingest the air the turbo is producing, resulting is surge, hence the anti surge inlets you see on modern day turbos
Thanks for the lesson Steve your the Boss💪🏼😎have a great evening boy's
There's an underlying problem with this setup: it doesn't measure the mass of air coming into the inlet of the turbo. If you mesure it you can figure out where you are on the turbo map and open the valves accordingly
I think I’m learning something here 🤣 You can actually see Steve thinking stuff through in the background while he is also talking. That’s some dual processing brain power 😘
Interesting test but: Put a controlled chokevalve on the inlet of the turbo. That way you get less air to pump around inside the turbo and it will speed up both faster and easier and to a way higher rpm. As it is now you create loses and they just punish your equipment and are harder to figure out.
I´ll tell you another phenomena that happened to me with turbo.
I had this setup that i was not able to control boost on, so in one dynopull i pulled off the wastegate to see if it created any at all.
Yup it did, and.....
It actually sucked air into the exhaust manifold where the wastegate mounts.
Grade my level of suprise right there ;)
Dewy stole the show, what a shocker lol
I love this wise and humble dude
Dewey looked like every new tech in America when the tool truck came for their first time!! Once he says yes to a bunch of stuff, he won't run so fast to the door of doom. 😂
the turbo is basically a centrifugal gaspump with a pumpcurve, according this curve you need rpm’s to create the pressure difference however that is accompanied with certain flow, that flow has to go somewhere. Increasing turbo speed alone you have to put the valve at the intake. A butterfly does not have a linear flow control characteristic.
for the centrifugal, have the computer watching the throttle position after a set time so as soon as you start to lift at the end of the pass it would open the gate.
If it's not the RPM it's the smoothness of the airflow, just a theory, but I bet it has something to do with how laminar the airflow is through the turbo. Turbulent vs laminar airflow won't be a black and white it'll be like -100 to +100 and anywhere in between. How turbulent, how laminar, etc.
Cool video Steve, thanks for sharing! 👍
Interested to see how well this works and the tuning behind it. Great explanation so far
I suggest that reversion covers be fitted to the boost control outlets to prevent muck being sucked into the engine.
The way Steve kept playing with that gate, I swear that he had his expensive fidget toy.
This is so cool, thank you for sharing all the information you do.
Originally I was concerned that the rapid opening of the valve at the end of the run could have caused the turbos to over speed. But now I see that all aspects of the valves motion are controlled as they don't seem to move very quickly so no worries. I wonder if the addition of a pressure transducer in the inlet of the turbo as part of a closed loop control of the two/three step control would be an advantage? It would certainly take care of the possible changes of altitude and air density for that part of the process. Using Vacuum at the inlet could also be a factor in varying the tune when under power?
Just a thought
Can't wait to see some testing on the track Steve..
I love seeing all the data tech stuff. 👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼
thank you for teaching us steve!!
Who let the boost out? No, not Dewey, it was Steve! It's beer'oclock and do you know where your boost is? Steve does!
Tried to discuss this with guys in the 1980s, and being much younger, I got dismissed. They insisted more volume was needed so that without test equipment, no one was even willing to try. They were chasing turbo lag. Didn’t matter they added the trans brake and couldn't understand why it wouldn't spool up.
Just hope the thing is dependable.
If you did not mention it, letting the compressor vent should help the compressor temps too.
From working many years in the oil industry, a butterfly valve is essentially wide open at just about what you showed.
@SteveMorris Use the turbo speed as the input with the gate to manage power. Hoding at a specific boost pressure changed the turbo speed and that creates a lost of efficiency and lowers torque under the curve. Control the gates with holding turbo RPM the same, then it is always in the right part of the map you want. Boost pressure would drop in parts of the map, but you will make more power. Boost won't matter as much. Less boost for more power equals efficiency and power! Lower ETs 😊
For the centrifugal supercharger, you could have it set up to open when parachute is deployed
With the valve open is the back pressure reduced enough to let the turbocharger run at the best performance at a rpm.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I would think that by bleeding off too much boost during the 2-step to try and build impeller speed you might actually cause your time to build target boost to be even longer, because without that ramping boost pressure being feed into the engine, you end up will less exhaust pressure to spin the turbos, thus actually taking longer to build up to target boost.
Just watched Fuel Tech hit a dyno record of over 5300hp to the hubs. They utilized the e-gate on the charge pipe the same way… I was like, “yeah, I already learned about that.” 🤙
Dewey gunna be paying $50/week for 160 weeks for some dog bones nd beef jerky 😂
Work=F X Distance. Air has mass so when you move it by Force you have done work. The Compressor provides the Force. The energy for that Force comes from the Turbine (hot side). Keep your new bleeder valves open as little as possible. Why? Because the less air you move through the bleeder valves, the faster your compressor wheel will spin. Doing less work moving less air unloads the compressor and reduces back pressure on the hot side, allowing the Compressor / Turbine to spin faster. Remember if you cover the exhaust air outlet on a shop vac, the vacuum motor speeds up because it was doing less work, moving less air.
Instead of using the timing, just program the throttle by wire to open the boost gate before it adjusts the actual throttle - in reference to the centrifugal supercharger thing.
asks where is the night time video of Steve's brain boost gate valve working overtime to solve tuning issues? 🤣
As a retired mechanic I always hated everything electrical as I usually ended up being under the dash with the rocker panel in the small of my back. As time marched on it became worse as cars turned into rolling computers with their Cann-buss systems, if I wanted to be an electronics repairman I would have gone to DeVry (although I'm not sure they were even around in the early 70's)
Hi.
You could set the waste gates to spin the compressor wheel to a certain speed, (eg 90% of max wheel) and use the straight gate to control the boost/torque engine needs to get of the line.
So the hot side waste gates is just there to keep the turbo inside it’s max wheel speed. And straight gate to keep the turbo inside it’s efficiency boost map of the turbo
Steve I was watching Gale Banks explain something something on the new Duramax Turbo inlet side design and how people are screwing up the factory design and major Turbo surging started to be problem with everyones aftermarket inlet designs. Gale did one hell of a job explaining it on RUclips. You think there could be a design flaw on just a open tube type to a specific design tube to prevent this Turbo surge issue?
Cool stuff, been waiting eagerly for this video to drop
Steve learns, we learn. Great stuff
❤❤❤. Awesome technology! Love the doggie.
my guess is you will need to operate it based on turbo speed then boost. you arent seeing what you want to see because you are not in the conditions that cause the problem with 2 step. you got good air sitting in your shop, you need bad air to set this up or see the effect you are expecting.
I love your videos really great !