I just tried putting my two double 18's together in the middle at a three day outdoor battle of the bands. My boss was on site to help set up had reservations but let me try it. He was there until the main pa was up and running before he had to leave for his own three day show. I just saw the pics of his show and he did it too!!! LMAO!! Flat out admitted the coverage was WAY more even. Thank you so much for vids like these. Really helps to know what's going on instead of wondering who's "advice" is right lol. I FELT the pattern I expected too and it was perfect for the show. Cheers man!
Thank you so much for circling back and sharing this with me! You wouldn't believe how happy it makes me to know that my teaching is being put to use in the "real world" and helping great engineers like you have even better shows. Thanks for your trust and willingness to learn and try new things. And tell your boss I said you're welcome ; )
Thank you so much! I just deployed my first inline gradient cardioid sub array a few days ago and it was a trip to experience!! You’ve helped me so much and I’m always excited to see your new videos
You're very welcome, Matthew! So glad my teaching has helped you level up and gain confidence on your shows. But yes, the first time you walk behind a cardioid sub array that you designed and experience the rear rejection is quite satisfying : ). I remember showing a few friends that early on and they thought it was voodoo!
This was fantastic! Thank you. I would love to see the follow up video with the “other” 7 set ups. I will refer to this when planning out my shows to cover the audience. Great content!
You're very welcome! I'm putting out some videos explaining more of my spreadsheet in the near future, but there will definitely be a followup with 7 more sub arrays. Thanks!
Wow thank you so much Michael! I'm 51 own a small upstaging company in MS and I have learned more watching your stuff the last few days than I have in years! So nice of you to do this- can't wait to learn about time alignment! It is crazy how some days just 2 18s can punch your gut and some set ups just cancel things out. I guess too much in the wrong alignment can really hurt you- can't wait until my next venue!
Hey, Kevin. I'm glad my videos have been helpful to you! And yes, it all comes down to alignment : ) Amplitude and phase rule everything, no matter how many subs you have. Put one of these setups to work and let me know how it goes.
Hello sir i am from india, i was searching about subwoofer arrangement and I found this video I can't understand English properly. but your graphs and presentation helped for understanding sub arrangements. Thenaks ❤❤❤
Great video Michael. What would be handy is to have all of these examples, complete with their 63hz responses and a brief "When to use" blurb on the tool kit, to refer to in the field. Again, huge thanks for the resources you are providing!
Hi, Im quite confused with the terminologies such us delay and polarity but overall, I get the general idea but I don't quite understand it. Appreciate your work! Excited to see your other video as well. I am a trainee on our small church learning the ropes hopefully I could learn from your teachings as well.
I wonder if you might cover a raised sub (on a small stage - say 1 to 2 meters height) vs a sub on the floor and pro's and con's of each? - Also, how about a series on odd shaped rooms with small PA rigs - covering reflections from a bar, low ceiling, a dog leg "band in the corner" scenario & single small sub placement in the worst rooms? - You could start with 2 tops and 1 sub and then maybe talk about the best 'upgrades' for each to achieve the result in each room (e.g. wider horizontal pattern, raising tops an extra meter etc.) - Learning a lot from your content and I'm trying to apply it in my small scale world where I use my DB Ingenia IG3T's + DB subs. Thank you and please do keep up the good work.
Nice video, gave me a lot of input. But you may give some feedback on this: I think there is missing a key Setup which produces very good (maybe best) sound with limited space in front of stage. Just put 4 subs next to each other in front of the stage and face the outer towards the stage. Then invert these and put an 3ms delay on and you will get an pretty decent cardio array. Pros: -At 63 Hz: same pattern as setup 7, but needs at last 2m less space in front of stage -At 63 Hz: covers more space / goes deeper into the room than setup 6, but needs at last 2m less space -At 100Hz: much better pattern than setup 7, depth and width of the sound are nearly doubled -At 100Hz: deeper pattern than setup 6, bigger area is covered by sound -At 125Hz: even at this higher frequency you will get a pretty decent cover without the pattern falling apart Cons: --At 100Hz: setup 6 covers a wider area, just matters if the room has twice the width than depth When I was simulating this for several hours it blew my mind and at the first event it did again.
great videos! would love to see this video with 6 subs and what kind of options that would open up. 4 subs seems to be pretty common haven't come across a video covering options with 6.
Great videos for real world operation. As a mobile DJ most of my set ups are the standard two stacks subs and tops (Yamaha DSR115 over DXS 18). I am faced with all sorts of room shapes and set up arrangements. As requested, video of the same but for two subs for us mobile guys would be great. I do experiment and get to (when I can) venues early enough to try arrangements out, however, appreciating the ‘science’ is the next step up for me.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio replying because I'm also using Yamaha DZR315's. They are so loud and clear that you won't want to be standing within 10 ft of stage....which allows wide coverage four element (face each other) or forward facing. So you are saying that facing each other (with delay) allows for higher SPL farther back in the audience? Power requirements are a limiting factor as the venue is completely off grid solar so efficiency is key!! Cabo San Lucas, MX is still expanding so if you're not downtown, no electrical lines and water is trucked in.
Nice video Michael, I really need to upgrade to MAP 3D from XT. One challenge that I foresee with options 6 & 7 is the space required to deploy those sub configurations directly in front of the stage. You know, where the promoters want to sell the most expensive seats or VIP standing zones. I'd like to see a Part II of this series where you look at a few more options such as all 4 subs in the center but with one facing to the rear in a cardio configuration. Also, what about two slightly spaced pairs in front of the stage, does that buy us anything? Of the seven you presented, the one that I think is practical for me to try, given the stages and room at my gigs, is the 45 degree angled end-fire option. Does that mean I should buy two more subs so I can try that one out? :).
Yes, totally with you on the "can I have some real estate for my fancy sub array?" challenge. Especially on corporate shows where they manage to stuff as many 10-seat circle tables as possible in a ballroom : ) There's a followup series to come, for sure. It's possibly to do all four across the front with one reverse, but you won't get as much cancellation with just doing a Front-Rear-Front setup. The front-Rear-front config works so well because it's a carefully made cocktail of level offset, phase offset, and timing offset. Once you add another element to that it throws off the balance. The outdoor show where I deploy the front-rear-front config usually ends up having four subs available to me, but I only use the three since those provide more than enough SPL. Then I throw the fourth up on stage for a drum monitor sub.
I have 4 kw181s. We have always stacked two left and right with a top cabinet on each. Never been happy with the coverage. We are buying stands and going to move the 4 subs to the center. I like the center cube example in the video. My question is, what if the stage is not high enough, would 4 subs all in a row side by side be best for us. I dont ave any processing for delay and some of the other examples in the video. All I could is chamge the placement and the polarity, which I admit, I have never changed. I know there is no one fits all setup, but just a general rule of thumb.. so for example outside. TIA, geat info.
Michael-thank you for sharing your knowledge! Can you tell me, when you spread the subs in cardioid where do you measure from? Back of the front cab to front of the back cab? Or cones ?
Just a theoretical thought here: what about placing a delayed subwoofer on those alleys (about the "middle" or worst spot for most frequencies), just to fill in what's missing from the front subs. I was also thinking about the scale of all this, because the closer you get to the stage, the narrower the alleys. So, if the audience is close enough, this might be less noticable. Also, for seating audiences, and if that's an option, you could even place the chairs where the coverage will be, in this case that would mean making the sound alleys become "audience alleys" as well. That way, the coverage would be even, because in all problematic regions, there would be no audience. Just some thoughts. I know that in practical terms, things are usually not that easy to implement.
What if you have them in a curved array spaced 5.6 feet apart? So the same as in the first setup in this video, but with the outside subs pulled towards the back. Would the sound dispersion get wider?
@@blissvanweers5885 I want to include it in a specific video talking about sub delay arcs. It's "harder" to get them to behave with just four elements, but totally doable.
Thank you so much, Ricko! That's a great idea for a video. Long story short, it's the same as if they're in front of it except that cardioid arrays will fall apart under a stage. You still get the same response out in the audience, but the cardioid pattern (rear rejection) will not be so. The principles of horizontal placement to make coverage wider or narrower still apply.
Great information Michael. I'm curious when talking about spacing subs as in the first example @ 5.66' apart. Is this spacing measured between the boxes or is this center to center of the speakers? Thanks again for the informative videos!
You're very welcome! As long as you measure from the same point on each sub (from the side of one sub to the side of the other, or the center of one box to the center of the other) it doesn't matter.
Hi, I have a question for you: number 6 and 7 configuration (facing each other) which subs must be delayed plus cardiod setup? Front / back? Thank you 😊
Thanks for your excellent contribution to good mixing strategies! I'm doing my first show next month with 6 rock bands and 4 newly acquired KW181's/M32 with LR+Mono. The outdoor location is on an elevated 10'x20" stage up against a concrete loading dock with concrete walls on each side approx. 35' apart. I'd like to place the subs under the stage and utilize SET-UP 7 however, I'm not sure if delay/polarity inversion is required on the two front (audience/dance floor) subs. Actually, I'm not 100% sure if it is Audio Wise. I've watched several videos and the other option was the 'hard line'. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
You're very welcome! I hate to burst your bubble, but placing the subs under the stage will end up negating the cardioid pattern. Since they're so close to other boundaries all the reflections cause a lot of chaos and mess up the necessary conditions for cancellation at the rear. You still can do that physical placement of the subs, but you might get more SPL out of the setup if you do a two element endfire (which is the mirror image of the processing needed for setup 7, the inline gradient). You would do delay the downstage/audience side sub so that it would "wait" for the rear sub and align. No polarity inversion needed. If you placed rear sub 4.5ft behind the front sub, you would need 4ms of delay.
Normally, you try to avoid having subs as close to walls/corners as possible due to unforeseen reflexions. I'd suggest the first setup Michael showed, because your reflexions from the side walls are minimised. As always: Listen to your ears and try different configurations.
Is it possible to build cardioid in an active system? There is a phase inversion switch from 0 to 180 but i wonder how I can adjust the delay if I do not have an amp rack. Thanks for your videos!
Glad you're liking the videos, Johann! If you're on a digital console that has some processing built in you can add the delay there, as well as the polarity inversion. I do that on Yamaha CL5's, Behringer X32's, and A&H dLives all the time.
My favourite solution is ditching the 4th sub and do a cardioid out of the remaining 3 by putting them in the middle side by side with the middle one reversed. I must check out the inverted wide cardioid though.
So that’s what I’ve been doing! (Thanks Michael) but if i have the space on an outdoor event with the 4 facing each other give a little more low end?? Trying to decide if I want to buy one more or not. Thanks
Thoughts on doing something along the lines of setup #6 (center four Element Inline Gradient Cardioid Array, close spacing) with 4 d&b 21S, with all 4 being fully enclosed in a open air sub bunker underneath a hollow concrete stage (with the 2 down stage being flush with the edge of the stage at the opening of the bunker.) How would that affect the pattern/response? I know that would be hard to really answer definitively without seeing the room (the Room is wide with something close to setup #1, with a power alley in the center and a lot of cancellation in the wings). Just wanted to know your thoughts Thank you so much for this kind of content, extremely helpful!
Hey, Wil. Given the setup you described I don't think the cardioid pattern would hold up well. The cavity its in would break up the needed parameters for cancellation in the rear. Glad you're digging the videos!
I'd be interested to hear what you think of a three row end fire System below or next to the stage. I'm planning an event with a low budget and I might be able to squeeze in six subs. Four won't cut it for a 4k guest event.
End fire setups need some space around them to work correctly, so I'd put them to the sides of the stage. They have a narrower pattern than their inverted gradient counterparts, which narrows the higher in frequency you go.
I think I've heard that if you use straight across you should delay the subs the more they are from the center. Is this right and how would I know the delay amount to use in those cases?
Hi Michael, Could I do the centre inline gradient with two double 18? Having them placed at centre and facing each other, or must there be some space between the front and the back subs?
what can I do for even coverage of a large open field when the stage is ground level and I cant do center subs I really like the inline gradient center sub option it looks like great even coverage but it would block the lead singer in most venues I work at since at most we are using 1' high intellistages or just band on ground. I also cant fly them but would like to minimize the phase interference and stage bleed as best as possible as most of the groups are acoustic/classical/bluegrass singer songwriter style and the area is about 400' to cover open field. I do have flown arrays but subs must stay on ground.
It would be nice to see what a left/right flown pattern would look like. Also, what it would look like if subs were stereo and not mono.. I suspect there would be less comb filtering
There would be less comb filtering if the signals within their frequency range were decorrelated, which is not usually the case in most modern mixes below 80Hz.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio I would be interested to see what the pattern would look like if you had a line of subs that went from one side ....all the way to the other. like .. 40ft. long
Valuable information you've given us, you're greatly appreciated. Q: If I have six Subs, (Same stage set up) as your example there, How would it look/sound If I stack 2 on left corner of stage, stack 2 in the middle of stage, and 2 more on the right stage? You think it would give me an even output at entire venue?
Hey, Miguel. Great question. It depends on your crossover frequency, but let's say it's 100Hz (the upper frequency limit of your subs). We want to make sure that upper frequency matches the target shape of your audience. If you place them evenly across at the edges and center of your stage that means that they're 10ft apart (left edge to middle, then middle to right edge). That's almost a full wavelength and will both narrow the coverage of your array to be skinny AND cause some power valleys and alleys. So, I'd call that a less than optimal array : ). If the venue you're working in is wide (almost a square shape) AND you don't want to bother with cardioid, I'd do two stacks of three boxes right in the center. If you want to do a cardioid array I would flip around the center sub of that and go through the rest of the delay and polarity inversion recipe to get a cardioid shape that will be wide.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio I appreciate your feedback, when you say two stacks of three boxes right in the center, how far apart from one stack to the other? Or more like literally both stacks right next to each other (No space in between)?
@@djmigueladrian Sorry I wasn't clear! I would have three subwoofers all right next to each other in a line, no space in between them (unless you were doing a cardioid setup). Then stack a sub on each of those boxes. So, it'd almost be like the cube setup in this video, but with another stack of one sub over another right next to the cube.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio so in that configuration....if I had the middle sub in each stack of three pointed back towards the satge...with the cardioid setting on the woofer engaged...do I need to play with the subs delay setting? Or does the cardioid setting in the sub (Electrovoice ETX18Sp) take care of that?
What about straight line without spacing? Is it comparable more with a cube, or more with a straight line with spacing? What would be the best option of these 3 for maximum SPL in front?
A straight line without spacing would still get you even coverage with no power alleys and valleys, but it would narrow the coverage some compared to doing the cube. So, if you're audience is more of a shoebox (with the depth being longer than the width), the straight line would work great. If your audience is more of a square and you need to have wide coverage, go with the cube. SPL will be pretty much the same for all three of these in the very front. It's more of a matter of how do you want to shape the coverage.
Hi from Sweden. I'm missing some info on the "10:17 - 6 - Center Four Element Inline Gradient Cardioid Array, Close Spacing". You say you put them so they face each other (front pair facing and also back pair), but how far apart are they? Not how far away front and back pair is apart. You covered that, but how far the 2 front subs are spaced (and of course the back subs too). Are they touching or a an inch apart or 10 inches? Not sure if size matters (she promised me it didn't...) but I have 18 inch (subs, that is)(single 18). Thanks. Best regards from Sweden. Take care :)
For setups 1 - 4, absolutely. For setups 5 - 7 you need some sort of processing to complete the delay and polarity parts of the recipe for those particular cardioid sub arrays.
central cardiod with 3 elements forward evenly spaced and only one in the back central. wouldn't one well placed do the rejection job just as good as multiple?
@@MichaelCurtisAudio thank you sir.if i may ask bout the measurements between 2 facing enclosures and the 2 parallel ones and its delay.thank you so much!
I actually have 4 subs : 2 x 12 ich & 2x18ich, what would you recommend to do? What about placing them in line, with 2 of them facing crowd, and the other 2 facing the DJ ? Which one of them would you put in what direction ?
It depends if you're trying to do a cardioid setup or not and what the power rating and phase response is of the 2x12 vs 2x18. I'd make sure they're phase compatible first. Then you'll have to drive the 2x18's less hard to bring them down to meet the output of the 2x12 cabinets.
I have four subs from the same brand and power output. One pair is 15" and the other 18". (fbt xsub 15sa and fbt xsub 18sa). On the two subs per side setup, which sub do I put on the outside for better coverage. The larger 18" cone or the smaller 15"?
Hey Michael , what if I coupled two KW181s center, then two KW153s left and right also on the floor…could I Run those 3ways in full range without phase issues? To get a little more bass response on the wings?
Great question. I think the best thing to do would be to do an A/B test and see what sounds better, but my gut says to let the subs carry the full load of low frequencies and keep the KW153's focused on 100Hz and above.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio thank you yeah I agree with you. It’s a hypothetical anyway I don’t have all this gear ..yet. Live band and prerecorded/DJ music would yield different results too I’d imagine. Def would want A/B it to see what works best! Thanks again
Hello sir, i have question for setup 7, is it still work if the stage used concrete for base? Because I'll use cardioid for my setup at school, but the stage made from concrete. Oh ya the stage tall is 1 meter.
Hi Michael, I’m in a church auditorium that’s 90ft wide & 65ft deep…with a 28ft ceiling & 32in high stage. For subs, We are installing a flown center cluster using the “wide coverage 4 element inline gradient array”. I have two questions… 1. With a flown “Wide coverage 4 element inline gradient array”…do you typically recommend additional subs installed under the stage, or do you find the flown array sufficient? (BTW…this church has no desire for heavy/extreme low end…but rather a nice/tight & controlled low end) 2. “If” you do recommend ground subs, then what is the best under stage array pattern that would compliment the flown array? Could you possibly replicate the flown “Wide coverage 4 element inline gradient array” under stage, and have a large trapezoid shape cavity cutout that would allow the energy to freely release in a more Omni pattern?
1. The flown sub array will be all that you need! 2. The rear rejection on a cardioid subwoofer setup falls apart when next to a bunch of reflective surfaces (like under stage). If there's already a significant flown sub array I would go with an INFRA-sub setup on the ground. That would cover the octave below where you flown subs drop off.
Yes, Meyer is very aware that MAPP 3D is pretty buggy at the moment. I do know first hand that they're investing significant development resources to make MAPP 3D more stable as fast as they can.
How do I tell the XOVR frequency of my sub woofers? Their range says 40-350Hz Sir Thanks I'm asking because I want to setup an in-line cardiod array and I want to get this right from the system design cause I won't have so much time on site My PA has a range that's down to 40Hz also Do I determine the XOVR by way of a low cut on my mains or something, so I'm manually deciding where I want my subs to kick in? And what if I leave that around 80Hz, cause I like the low addition I get from my PA...?
With that much overlap between mains and subs you have a lot of leeway to decide where you want crossover to be. 80Hz is a good "middle ground" starting point. Like you said, I'd apply a high pass filter on your mains speaker, then a low pass on your sub, then assess the overlap and phase response. Chances are you'll have to play around with filter location and slope, and possibly polarity to get everything working. Start with gentler filters (2nd order Butterworth probably) then work your way to more aggressive if needed.
@@victortavarez11 I understand now. Yes, you can have a dual sub cabinet facing forward with another dual sub cabinet behind it to create an inline cardioid setup. You follow the same recipe for the single 18" sub I use in this video - ruclips.net/video/e90v1NVT7bQ/видео.html
I have 4 IQ18B turbosound subs. I would like to do the Cube stacked sub design talked about in 5min 2sec of the video. Had a question on how would I wire this? Mono signal to a sub and daisy chain to other subs?
If you would be stacking a 2x18 on top of a 2x18 and wanting to have a wide coverage pattern and you don't care about LF spill on stage, that would work great. If I'm stacking two 2x18" cabs on one another and I have the processing I will reverse the bottom one and face it toward the stage and do a gradient inverted stack cardioid configuration.
hi Micheal how are you? I hope everything is OK. I wanted to ask you: if you have a solid stage is there a difference between the classic setup 1 and the central cube setup 2? or some other solution
You'll just end up getting a reflection off the stage, but it will vary depending on the stage height. Just as long as you don't do a cardioid setup you'll be fine.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio thanks Micheal. in the video I saw the various setups but nothing on end fire. would you make a video where you show what happens with an end fire with the same subwoofers? i know it's only 2 lines. but in theory it would be possible to make a central line with 4 subs one ahead of the other? what would be the result? definitely not aesthetic but could it work?
@@tony8236 Good call. Yes, you're right in that end fire is missing here. I can make a video in the future showing that. It wasn't high up on the list since I rarely find myself using that configuration, but it's still worth being familiar with when you need to call on it.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio thank you. maybe with the same subs you use in the program. I would be curious to see a line of 4 sub to see if it could work even if in reality you need a lot of space and it is not aesthetically the best. but also with 2 lines (2 forward, two back). once I tried to do it and from the stage they told me that the low frequencies were reduced
I've had plenty of good luck mixing subs from one manufacturer with mains from a different one. What you want to pay attention to is their phase response where they overlap. If their phase response is more than 50° apart when the main and sub are within 10dB of each other than they're incompatible.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio to be clear this question is about 3 or 4 subs from 2 different manufacturers. The internet led me to believe I should definitely only use two of them. And they must be the same. People even said 3 is no louder then 4 you always must double. 2 4 or 8 or 16 subs. That was a surprise to hear. I don't understand that at all. 😂
@@MistaTwitch Ok, got it! I misunderstood you. Yes, you can pair them up if their phase response is within 50° of each other. You just have to measure it, which you can do with Open Sound Meter for free.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio Can you elaborate on combining subs of different models, manufacturers, and/ or sizes? There are a lot of people saying you shouldn't combine different subs but no good explanations as to why, or suggestions on how to do it if needed. Maybe a good topic for a video?
@@MichaelCurtisAudio I just found your channel and I love it! Thank you for sharing what you do. Just watching some of your videos has confirmed so many things I have tried to relay to my church that they have ignored for so long. 😞 Maybe one day I can convince them of some much needed changes. Until then I will keep learning as much as I can. Currently running an Allen and Heath Avantis with 2 sets of 4 vrx arrays with 2 srx800’s through a dbx drive rack. Keep up the good work God bless!
@@michaelyoung7911 Thanks a ton, Michael! I think you'll like tomorrow's video a lot, then, since it's very similar to yours. It's four hangs of three VRX arrays plus a four element inline gradient cardioid sub array using SRX828S subs, plus another smaller relay sub array.
@@yourangelz_513 I'm assuming you're not able to fly the speakers. I'd place all of the subs together on one side of the court, then have a K12 facing each cardinal direction, covering the middle of that side of the stands.
So I'm not understanding what you are doing here. I have Electrovoice ETX subs that have a cardioid setting . My understanding was that you could just flip them and face them backwards and then engage the cardioid setting. Am I missing something? I feel like you have left out important info.
I just tried putting my two double 18's together in the middle at a three day outdoor battle of the bands. My boss was on site to help set up had reservations but let me try it. He was there until the main pa was up and running before he had to leave for his own three day show. I just saw the pics of his show and he did it too!!! LMAO!! Flat out admitted the coverage was WAY more even. Thank you so much for vids like these. Really helps to know what's going on instead of wondering who's "advice" is right lol. I FELT the pattern I expected too and it was perfect for the show. Cheers man!
Thank you so much for circling back and sharing this with me! You wouldn't believe how happy it makes me to know that my teaching is being put to use in the "real world" and helping great engineers like you have even better shows. Thanks for your trust and willingness to learn and try new things. And tell your boss I said you're welcome ; )
Thank you so much! I just deployed my first inline gradient cardioid sub array a few days ago and it was a trip to experience!! You’ve helped me so much and I’m always excited to see your new videos
You're very welcome, Matthew! So glad my teaching has helped you level up and gain confidence on your shows. But yes, the first time you walk behind a cardioid sub array that you designed and experience the rear rejection is quite satisfying : ). I remember showing a few friends that early on and they thought it was voodoo!
This was fantastic! Thank you. I would love to see the follow up video with the “other” 7 set ups. I will refer to this when planning out my shows to cover the audience. Great content!
You're very welcome! I'm putting out some videos explaining more of my spreadsheet in the near future, but there will definitely be a followup with 7 more sub arrays. Thanks!
Wow thank you so much Michael! I'm 51 own a small upstaging company in MS and I have learned more watching your stuff the last few days than I have in years! So nice of you to do this- can't wait to learn about time alignment! It is crazy how some days just 2 18s can punch your gut and some set ups just cancel things out. I guess too much in the wrong alignment can really hurt you- can't wait until my next venue!
Hey, Kevin. I'm glad my videos have been helpful to you! And yes, it all comes down to alignment : ) Amplitude and phase rule everything, no matter how many subs you have. Put one of these setups to work and let me know how it goes.
This is the video I was looking for. Thanks for sharing your knowledge
You're welcome!
So it would appear that placing subs side by side front middle, which I have been doing for 30+ years is the best all around procedure!
Hello sir i am from india, i was searching about subwoofer arrangement and I found this video I can't understand English properly. but your graphs and presentation helped for understanding sub arrangements. Thenaks ❤❤❤
You're very welcome!
This was fantastic! Thank you.
You're very welcome!
Great video Michael. What would be handy is to have all of these examples, complete with their 63hz responses and a brief "When to use" blurb on the tool kit, to refer to in the field. Again, huge thanks for the resources you are providing!
That's a fantastic idea, Cameron. I'll probably build that out after I do a followup video with a few more sub arrays. Thanks for the suggestion!
great simulation
Hi, Im quite confused with the terminologies such us delay and polarity but overall, I get the general idea but I don't quite understand it. Appreciate your work! Excited to see your other video as well. I am a trainee on our small church learning the ropes hopefully I could learn from your teachings as well.
Thanks, Seth! Check out this video for some helpful clarification on terms - ruclips.net/video/3u_jQCshHXw/видео.html
I hope to publish more of these.
Amazing video
Thanks much !
You got it.
Wealth of info thank you
Really good video! Thanks man
You're very welcome!
This isn’t in your playlist for low end. I looked everywhere to find this video again. Thank you for the info!
Sorry about that! I will add it.
I wonder if you might cover a raised sub (on a small stage - say 1 to 2 meters height) vs a sub on the floor and pro's and con's of each? - Also, how about a series on odd shaped rooms with small PA rigs - covering reflections from a bar, low ceiling, a dog leg "band in the corner" scenario & single small sub placement in the worst rooms? - You could start with 2 tops and 1 sub and then maybe talk about the best 'upgrades' for each to achieve the result in each room (e.g. wider horizontal pattern, raising tops an extra meter etc.) - Learning a lot from your content and I'm trying to apply it in my small scale world where I use my DB Ingenia IG3T's + DB subs. Thank you and please do keep up the good work.
Those are some great ideas! I'll definitely throw those in the hopper, I appreciate the feedback.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio please do!
Nice video, gave me a lot of input. But you may give some feedback on this:
I think there is missing a key Setup which produces very good (maybe best) sound with limited space in front of stage. Just put 4 subs next to each other in front of the stage and face the outer towards the stage. Then invert these and put an 3ms delay on and you will get an pretty decent cardio array.
Pros:
-At 63 Hz: same pattern as setup 7, but needs at last 2m less space in front of stage
-At 63 Hz: covers more space / goes deeper into the room than setup 6, but needs at last 2m less space
-At 100Hz: much better pattern than setup 7, depth and width of the sound are nearly doubled
-At 100Hz: deeper pattern than setup 6, bigger area is covered by sound
-At 125Hz: even at this higher frequency you will get a pretty decent cover without the pattern falling apart
Cons:
--At 100Hz: setup 6 covers a wider area, just matters if the room has twice the width than depth
When I was simulating this for several hours it blew my mind and at the first event it did again.
I'll have to give this a shot!
Great summary of Dave Rat's videos.
great videos! would love to see this video with 6 subs and what kind of options that would open up. 4 subs seems to be pretty common haven't come across a video covering options with 6.
Great idea! Yes, having 6 opens up some options with delay arcs, 3 element end fires, double stacking the gradient inline.
Great video!! Thank you Michael. For #6, how do you calculate the optimal grill to grill spacing between the subs?
I would love for you to do this same thing but just for a two set up. This was vary helpful.
That's a fantastic idea. You got it : ) I've got to get through this audio math survival spreadsheet series, but it's coming.
Great videos for real world operation. As a mobile DJ most of my set ups are the standard two stacks subs and tops (Yamaha DSR115 over DXS 18). I am faced with all sorts of room shapes and set up arrangements. As requested, video of the same but for two subs for us mobile guys would be great. I do experiment and get to (when I can) venues early enough to try arrangements out, however, appreciating the ‘science’ is the next step up for me.
@@manchah1 You got it. With your typical setup are you able to apply any output delay/processing to your subs?
@@MichaelCurtisAudio replying because I'm also using Yamaha DZR315's. They are so loud and clear that you won't want to be standing within 10 ft of stage....which allows wide coverage four element (face each other) or forward facing. So you are saying that facing each other (with delay) allows for higher SPL farther back in the audience? Power requirements are a limiting factor as the venue is completely off grid solar so efficiency is key!! Cabo San Lucas, MX is still expanding so if you're not downtown, no electrical lines and water is trucked in.
Nice video Michael, I really need to upgrade to MAP 3D from XT. One challenge that I foresee with options 6 & 7 is the space required to deploy those sub configurations directly in front of the stage. You know, where the promoters want to sell the most expensive seats or VIP standing zones. I'd like to see a Part II of this series where you look at a few more options such as all 4 subs in the center but with one facing to the rear in a cardio configuration. Also, what about two slightly spaced pairs in front of the stage, does that buy us anything? Of the seven you presented, the one that I think is practical for me to try, given the stages and room at my gigs, is the 45 degree angled end-fire option. Does that mean I should buy two more subs so I can try that one out? :).
Yes, totally with you on the "can I have some real estate for my fancy sub array?" challenge. Especially on corporate shows where they manage to stuff as many 10-seat circle tables as possible in a ballroom : )
There's a followup series to come, for sure. It's possibly to do all four across the front with one reverse, but you won't get as much cancellation with just doing a Front-Rear-Front setup. The front-Rear-front config works so well because it's a carefully made cocktail of level offset, phase offset, and timing offset. Once you add another element to that it throws off the balance.
The outdoor show where I deploy the front-rear-front config usually ends up having four subs available to me, but I only use the three since those provide more than enough SPL. Then I throw the fourth up on stage for a drum monitor sub.
I have 4 kw181s. We have always stacked two left and right with a top cabinet on each. Never been happy with the coverage. We are buying stands and going to move the 4 subs to the center. I like the center cube example in the video. My question is, what if the stage is not high enough, would 4 subs all in a row side by side be best for us. I dont ave any processing for delay and some of the other examples in the video. All I could is chamge the placement and the polarity, which I admit, I have never changed. I know there is no one fits all setup, but just a general rule of thumb.. so for example outside. TIA, geat info.
Michael-thank you for sharing your knowledge! Can you tell me, when you spread the subs in cardioid where do you measure from? Back of the front cab to front of the back cab? Or cones ?
Great question! Cone to cone.
Just a theoretical thought here: what about placing a delayed subwoofer on those alleys (about the "middle" or worst spot for most frequencies), just to fill in what's missing from the front subs.
I was also thinking about the scale of all this, because the closer you get to the stage, the narrower the alleys. So, if the audience is close enough, this might be less noticable.
Also, for seating audiences, and if that's an option, you could even place the chairs where the coverage will be, in this case that would mean making the sound alleys become "audience alleys" as well. That way, the coverage would be even, because in all problematic regions, there would be no audience.
Just some thoughts. I know that in practical terms, things are usually not that easy to implement.
Hi Michael I love your tutorials. What would you do with 4 double 18’s? I have the Tannoy VNet 218 subs
What if you have them in a curved array spaced 5.6 feet apart? So the same as in the first setup in this video, but with the outside subs pulled towards the back. Would the sound dispersion get wider?
Hi Michael , great video as always!
But let’s go 1 step further and use arc settings on ur evenly spaced center subs :P
Now we're talking : ) That's to come in a later video, I promise.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio Nice brother!
@@blissvanweers5885 I want to include it in a specific video talking about sub delay arcs. It's "harder" to get them to behave with just four elements, but totally doable.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio yes for sure but if it increase the coverage by only 3 or 4 % it’s a win for me :)
@@MichaelCurtisAudio looking forward to the video
Love your videos. Can you do a video on the best sub array when the subs have to be under the stage.
Thank you so much, Ricko!
That's a great idea for a video. Long story short, it's the same as if they're in front of it except that cardioid arrays will fall apart under a stage. You still get the same response out in the audience, but the cardioid pattern (rear rejection) will not be so.
The principles of horizontal placement to make coverage wider or narrower still apply.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio thank you very much :-)
@@rickohougaard1 You're very welcome!
Great information Michael. I'm curious when talking about spacing subs as in the first example @ 5.66' apart. Is this spacing measured between the boxes or is this center to center of the speakers? Thanks again for the informative videos!
You're very welcome! As long as you measure from the same point on each sub (from the side of one sub to the side of the other, or the center of one box to the center of the other) it doesn't matter.
How about a center inline gradient with opposing faces in rear pair and forward-facing front pair, front pair 5.66 ft apart?
Hi, I have a question for you: number 6 and 7 configuration (facing each other) which subs must be delayed plus cardiod setup? Front / back? Thank you 😊
Thanks for your excellent contribution to good mixing strategies! I'm doing my first show next month with 6 rock bands and 4 newly acquired KW181's/M32 with LR+Mono. The outdoor location is on an elevated 10'x20" stage up against a concrete loading dock with concrete walls on each side approx. 35' apart. I'd like to place the subs under the stage and utilize SET-UP 7 however, I'm not sure if delay/polarity inversion is required on the two front (audience/dance floor) subs. Actually, I'm not 100% sure if it is Audio Wise. I've watched several videos and the other option was the 'hard line'. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
You're very welcome!
I hate to burst your bubble, but placing the subs under the stage will end up negating the cardioid pattern. Since they're so close to other boundaries all the reflections cause a lot of chaos and mess up the necessary conditions for cancellation at the rear.
You still can do that physical placement of the subs, but you might get more SPL out of the setup if you do a two element endfire (which is the mirror image of the processing needed for setup 7, the inline gradient).
You would do delay the downstage/audience side sub so that it would "wait" for the rear sub and align. No polarity inversion needed. If you placed rear sub 4.5ft behind the front sub, you would need 4ms of delay.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio Thank You so much, your material is top notch, inspiring, well versed and executed. Thanks for your generosity!
What would happen if you put a sub at each corner of the room?
Normally, you try to avoid having subs as close to walls/corners as possible due to unforeseen reflexions. I'd suggest the first setup Michael showed, because your reflexions from the side walls are minimised. As always: Listen to your ears and try different configurations.
Is it possible to build cardioid in an active system? There is a phase inversion switch from 0 to 180 but i wonder how I can adjust the delay if I do not have an amp rack. Thanks for your videos!
Glad you're liking the videos, Johann! If you're on a digital console that has some processing built in you can add the delay there, as well as the polarity inversion. I do that on Yamaha CL5's, Behringer X32's, and A&H dLives all the time.
My favourite solution is ditching the 4th sub and do a cardioid out of the remaining 3 by putting them in the middle side by side with the middle one reversed. I must check out the inverted wide cardioid though.
Yup! I always ditch the fourth in that scenario and usually use it as a bonus drum monitor sub.
So that’s what I’ve been doing! (Thanks Michael) but if i have the space on an outdoor event with the 4 facing each other give a little more low end?? Trying to decide if I want to buy one more or not. Thanks
Thoughts on doing something along the lines of setup #6 (center four Element Inline Gradient Cardioid Array, close spacing) with 4 d&b 21S, with all 4 being fully enclosed in a open air sub bunker underneath a hollow concrete stage (with the 2 down stage being flush with the edge of the stage at the opening of the bunker.) How would that affect the pattern/response? I know that would be hard to really answer definitively without seeing the room (the Room is wide with something close to setup #1, with a power alley in the center and a lot of cancellation in the wings). Just wanted to know your thoughts
Thank you so much for this kind of content, extremely helpful!
Hey, Wil. Given the setup you described I don't think the cardioid pattern would hold up well. The cavity its in would break up the needed parameters for cancellation in the rear. Glad you're digging the videos!
I'd be interested to hear what you think of a three row end fire System below or next to the stage. I'm planning an event with a low budget and I might be able to squeeze in six subs. Four won't cut it for a 4k guest event.
End fire setups need some space around them to work correctly, so I'd put them to the sides of the stage. They have a narrower pattern than their inverted gradient counterparts, which narrows the higher in frequency you go.
I think I've heard that if you use straight across you should delay the subs the more they are from the center. Is this right and how would I know the delay amount to use in those cases?
Hi thanks for the great tool! Is there a version of the spreadshit in meters and centigrades?
You're very welcome! I plan on releasing a metric version by the end of the year. Thanks for your patience in advance.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio thank you very much
If I put 4 single 18" subwoofers in the center at a distance of 1.5 m or 2 m between them, will they connect?
Hi Michael, Could I do the centre inline gradient with two double 18? Having them placed at centre and facing each other, or must there be some space between the front and the back subs?
Can u do this with cardiod setups for 6 eaw sb1000 (218) and 4 community sbs45 (415)? Outside.
what can I do for even coverage of a large open field when the stage is ground level and I cant do center subs I really like the inline gradient center sub option it looks like great even coverage but it would block the lead singer in most venues I work at since at most we are using 1' high intellistages or just band on ground. I also cant fly them but would like to minimize the phase interference and stage bleed as best as possible as most of the groups are acoustic/classical/bluegrass singer songwriter style and the area is about 400' to cover open field. I do have flown arrays but subs must stay on ground.
It would be nice to see what a left/right flown pattern would look like.
Also, what it would look like if subs were stereo and not mono.. I suspect there would be less comb filtering
There would be less comb filtering if the signals within their frequency range were decorrelated, which is not usually the case in most modern mixes below 80Hz.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio I do my best to keep both sides as unique as possible when mixing... it helps a ton.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio I would be interested to see what the pattern would look like if you had a line of subs that went from one side ....all the way to the other.
like .. 40ft. long
Valuable information you've given us, you're greatly appreciated.
Q: If I have six Subs, (Same stage set up) as your example there, How would it look/sound If I stack 2 on left corner of stage, stack 2 in the middle of stage, and 2 more on the right stage? You think it would give me an even output at entire venue?
Hey, Miguel. Great question. It depends on your crossover frequency, but let's say it's 100Hz (the upper frequency limit of your subs). We want to make sure that upper frequency matches the target shape of your audience.
If you place them evenly across at the edges and center of your stage that means that they're 10ft apart (left edge to middle, then middle to right edge). That's almost a full wavelength and will both narrow the coverage of your array to be skinny AND cause some power valleys and alleys.
So, I'd call that a less than optimal array : ). If the venue you're working in is wide (almost a square shape) AND you don't want to bother with cardioid, I'd do two stacks of three boxes right in the center. If you want to do a cardioid array I would flip around the center sub of that and go through the rest of the delay and polarity inversion recipe to get a cardioid shape that will be wide.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio I appreciate your feedback, when you say two stacks of three boxes right in the center, how far apart from one stack to the other? Or more like literally both stacks right next to each other
(No space in between)?
@@djmigueladrian Sorry I wasn't clear! I would have three subwoofers all right next to each other in a line, no space in between them (unless you were doing a cardioid setup). Then stack a sub on each of those boxes. So, it'd almost be like the cube setup in this video, but with another stack of one sub over another right next to the cube.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio so in that configuration....if I had the middle sub in each stack of three pointed back towards the satge...with the cardioid setting on the woofer engaged...do I need to play with the subs delay setting? Or does the cardioid setting in the sub (Electrovoice ETX18Sp) take care of that?
Very imformative video. Thanks, mike! What is that tool that you use in drawing those orange arrows, if you dont mind? TIA
It's called ScreenBrush. I love it!
@@MichaelCurtisAudio thanks!
What about straight line without spacing? Is it comparable more with a cube, or more with a straight line with spacing? What would be the best option of these 3 for maximum SPL in front?
A straight line without spacing would still get you even coverage with no power alleys and valleys, but it would narrow the coverage some compared to doing the cube. So, if you're audience is more of a shoebox (with the depth being longer than the width), the straight line would work great. If your audience is more of a square and you need to have wide coverage, go with the cube.
SPL will be pretty much the same for all three of these in the very front. It's more of a matter of how do you want to shape the coverage.
Hi from Sweden. I'm missing some info on the "10:17 - 6 - Center Four Element Inline Gradient Cardioid Array, Close Spacing". You say you put them so they face each other (front pair facing and also back pair), but how far apart are they? Not how far away front and back pair is apart. You covered that, but how far the 2 front subs are spaced (and of course the back subs too). Are they touching or a an inch apart or 10 inches? Not sure if size matters (she promised me it didn't...) but I have 18 inch (subs, that is)(single 18). Thanks. Best regards from Sweden. Take care :)
Can you utilize these arrangements for subs that don’t use dsp or have a cardiod selection?
For setups 1 - 4, absolutely. For setups 5 - 7 you need some sort of processing to complete the delay and polarity parts of the recipe for those particular cardioid sub arrays.
Could you do the 6th setup with front loaded horn subs too?
Yup!
central cardiod with 3 elements forward evenly spaced and only one in the back central. wouldn't one well placed do the rejection job just as good as multiple?
On the center 4 Inline gradient cardioid array, are you measuring that 4.5 feet apart from the center or edges of the drivers?
Either works as long as you're measuring from the same point on each sub.
Thanks! Am a New sub.. May i ask bout spacing a 4 inline gradient, mirror ones? Ill appreciate it. Thanks!
Can you elaborate a little bit on the setup in your question?
@@MichaelCurtisAudio thank you sir.if i may ask bout the measurements between 2 facing enclosures and the 2 parallel ones and its delay.thank you so much!
Running 4 dual jbls hoping this can carry over
It absolutely will.
I actually have 4 subs : 2 x 12 ich & 2x18ich, what would you recommend to do? What about placing them in line, with 2 of them facing crowd, and the other 2 facing the DJ ? Which one of them would you put in what direction ?
It depends if you're trying to do a cardioid setup or not and what the power rating and phase response is of the 2x12 vs 2x18. I'd make sure they're phase compatible first. Then you'll have to drive the 2x18's less hard to bring them down to meet the output of the 2x12 cabinets.
I have four subs from the same brand and power output.
One pair is 15" and the other 18". (fbt xsub 15sa and fbt xsub 18sa).
On the two subs per side setup, which sub do I put on the outside for better coverage. The larger 18" cone or the smaller 15"?
It honestly won't make a huge difference either way, but I'd put the 18" woofers on the inside.
Michael I have a question I have two FOH speakers one is 100* and the other is 120* of coverage how far apart should I keep them
It ultimately depends on your audience size and shape. It's not solely up to your speaker coverage specs alone.
Hey Michael , what if I coupled two KW181s center, then two KW153s left and right also on the floor…could I Run those 3ways in full range without phase issues? To get a little more bass response on the wings?
Great question. I think the best thing to do would be to do an A/B test and see what sounds better, but my gut says to let the subs carry the full load of low frequencies and keep the KW153's focused on 100Hz and above.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio thank you yeah I agree with you. It’s a hypothetical anyway I don’t have all this gear ..yet. Live band and prerecorded/DJ music would yield different results too I’d imagine. Def would want A/B it to see what works best! Thanks again
With setup 6, I wonder, how much space should there be between the two subs facing each other?
About a fist's width, maybe 3-4in or so.
an you explain how you were able to aim the subs in the software, meaning turning them around, facing each other etc? Thanks
Are you asking why I chose to turn them around? Or how I was able to turn them in MAPP 3D?
@@MichaelCurtisAudio how
@@ghighrolla711 You select the sub, then go to Object Settings, then rotate it on the Z axis 90°.
Can you do a video for 4pcs of 2x18” subs 🙂👍Thanks from swe
Hello sir, i have question for setup 7, is it still work if the stage used concrete for base?
Because I'll use cardioid for my setup at school, but the stage made from concrete. Oh ya the stage tall is 1 meter.
In general cardioid setups start to lose their effectiveness when they're close to a highly reflective boundary.
how far apart should the subwoofers facing each other be?
About 4 inches or a "fist's" width.
ill go for N2, N6, N7...
Hi Michael, I’m in a church auditorium that’s 90ft wide & 65ft deep…with a 28ft ceiling & 32in high stage. For subs, We are installing a flown center cluster using the “wide coverage 4 element inline gradient array”. I have two questions…
1. With a flown “Wide coverage 4 element inline gradient array”…do you typically recommend additional subs installed under the stage, or do you find the flown array sufficient? (BTW…this church has no desire for heavy/extreme low end…but rather a nice/tight & controlled low end)
2. “If” you do recommend ground subs, then what is the best under stage array pattern that would compliment the flown array? Could you possibly replicate the flown “Wide coverage 4 element inline gradient array” under stage, and have a large trapezoid shape cavity cutout that would allow the energy to freely release in a more Omni pattern?
1. The flown sub array will be all that you need!
2. The rear rejection on a cardioid subwoofer setup falls apart when next to a bunch of reflective surfaces (like under stage). If there's already a significant flown sub array I would go with an INFRA-sub setup on the ground. That would cover the octave below where you flown subs drop off.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio This is great info! Thank you so much!
@@judjohnson4640 You got it!
hello noob question here, does it apply to dual 18's subs ?
could you please do a video on what you would do if you get a room with a "L" shape?
Do you have rough dimensions?
I am having a lot of problems with Mapp 3d crashing. I'm on a windows pc with amd hardware. Any ideas as to why I might have this problem?
Yes, Meyer is very aware that MAPP 3D is pretty buggy at the moment. I do know first hand that they're investing significant development resources to make MAPP 3D more stable as fast as they can.
How do I tell the XOVR frequency of my sub woofers? Their range says 40-350Hz Sir
Thanks
I'm asking because I want to setup an in-line cardiod array and I want to get this right from the system design cause I won't have so much time on site
My PA has a range that's down to 40Hz also
Do I determine the XOVR by way of a low cut on my mains or something, so I'm manually deciding where I want my subs to kick in?
And what if I leave that around 80Hz, cause I like the low addition I get from my PA...?
With that much overlap between mains and subs you have a lot of leeway to decide where you want crossover to be.
80Hz is a good "middle ground" starting point. Like you said, I'd apply a high pass filter on your mains speaker, then a low pass on your sub, then assess the overlap and phase response. Chances are you'll have to play around with filter location and slope, and possibly polarity to get everything working. Start with gentler filters (2nd order Butterworth probably) then work your way to more aggressive if needed.
I'd like to see stacking all 4 vertically.
Great idea. I'll include that setup in the followup video!
Hey thank you, can I use two dual subs for example 6?
I don’t have 4 like in your example
Can you rephrase your question a different way? Not quite sure I understand.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio in the example where you have 4 subs facing each other
Can I put one dual sub 4 ft behind another dual sub and get a good throw?
@@victortavarez11 I understand now. Yes, you can have a dual sub cabinet facing forward with another dual sub cabinet behind it to create an inline cardioid setup. You follow the same recipe for the single 18" sub I use in this video - ruclips.net/video/e90v1NVT7bQ/видео.html
I have 4 IQ18B turbosound subs. I would like to do the Cube stacked sub design talked about in 5min 2sec of the video. Had a question on how would I wire this? Mono signal to a sub and daisy chain to other subs?
Yup, that wiring configuration would totally work.
Michael Curtis Thanks for responding, I appreciate it alot 🙏
Is Center Cube the best if you have 2x 2x18 ?
If you would be stacking a 2x18 on top of a 2x18 and wanting to have a wide coverage pattern and you don't care about LF spill on stage, that would work great. If I'm stacking two 2x18" cabs on one another and I have the processing I will reverse the bottom one and face it toward the stage and do a gradient inverted stack cardioid configuration.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio thanks
@@TheOfficialIH4xx3R Absolutely!
hi Micheal how are you? I hope everything is OK. I wanted to ask you: if you have a solid stage is there a difference between the classic setup 1 and the central cube setup 2? or some other solution
You'll just end up getting a reflection off the stage, but it will vary depending on the stage height. Just as long as you don't do a cardioid setup you'll be fine.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio thanks Micheal. in the video I saw the various setups but nothing on end fire. would you make a video where you show what happens with an end fire with the same subwoofers? i know it's only 2 lines. but in theory it would be possible to make a central line with 4 subs one ahead of the other? what would be the result? definitely not aesthetic but could it work?
@@tony8236 Good call. Yes, you're right in that end fire is missing here. I can make a video in the future showing that. It wasn't high up on the list since I rarely find myself using that configuration, but it's still worth being familiar with when you need to call on it.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio thank you. maybe with the same subs you use in the program. I would be curious to see a line of 4 sub to see if it could work even if in reality you need a lot of space and it is not aesthetically the best. but also with 2 lines (2 forward, two back). once I tried to do it and from the stage they told me that the low frequencies were reduced
@@tony8236 I can give that a shot.
Why not spread them out in a square quad ‘surround’ pattern., far away from each other?
That would get a ton of comb filtering and would not have a "focus point" for where the low end is coming from.
how would this translate when positioning subs in a 20' x 17' x 8' home cinema?
I'm not an expert when it comes to enclosed small rooms, but I would imagine you would place it on the ground in the center of your front wall.
Explore the Geddes method for placing subwoofers in a room
What about 2 subs of one brand coupled then on top another brand coupled. will this sound louder or quieter, better or worse?
I've had plenty of good luck mixing subs from one manufacturer with mains from a different one. What you want to pay attention to is their phase response where they overlap. If their phase response is more than 50° apart when the main and sub are within 10dB of each other than they're incompatible.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio I'm gonna need to do some Googleling to even being to start understanding this answer. But I really appreciate the reply. 😊
@@MichaelCurtisAudio to be clear this question is about 3 or 4 subs from 2 different manufacturers. The internet led me to believe I should definitely only use two of them. And they must be the same. People even said 3 is no louder then 4 you always must double. 2 4 or 8 or 16 subs. That was a surprise to hear. I don't understand that at all. 😂
@@MistaTwitch Ok, got it! I misunderstood you. Yes, you can pair them up if their phase response is within 50° of each other. You just have to measure it, which you can do with Open Sound Meter for free.
What software is this?
Thank you
It's MAPP 3D from Meyer Sound.
Could you do number 6 with pairs of subs from different manufacture's i.e. 2 Yamaha dxs15 mk2 and 2 HK audio elements
As long as the phase traces on the different sub models are within 50° of each other, then yes you totally could.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio Thanks for reply, but what would be the outcome if they weren't?
@@dantowell2804 You would get an inconsistent coverage pattern over the sub range. It just depends on how far of a phase offset and at what frequency.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio
Can you elaborate on combining subs of different models, manufacturers, and/ or sizes? There are a lot of people saying you shouldn't combine different subs but no good explanations as to why, or suggestions on how to do it if needed. Maybe a good topic for a video?
@@MichaelCurtisAudio Could you explain how to check the phase traces?
Wonder what you could do with 2 dual 18boxes
Lots of things! I've got a followup video in the pipeline that will discuss several setups you can do with two subs.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio I just found your channel and I love it! Thank you for sharing what you do. Just watching some of your videos has confirmed so many things I have tried to relay to my church that they have ignored for so long. 😞 Maybe one day I can convince them of some much needed changes. Until then I will keep learning as much as I can. Currently running an Allen and Heath Avantis with 2 sets of 4 vrx arrays with 2 srx800’s through a dbx drive rack. Keep up the good work God bless!
@@michaelyoung7911 Thanks a ton, Michael! I think you'll like tomorrow's video a lot, then, since it's very similar to yours. It's four hangs of three VRX arrays plus a four element inline gradient cardioid sub array using SRX828S subs, plus another smaller relay sub array.
What’s the best setup in your opinion for a basketball school gym with four qsc subs ?
Where is the stage? Is the audience on the floor or in the stands all around?
@@MichaelCurtisAudio the audience in the stands all around. There will be a large mat on the floor for cheerleading performances
Also to mention 4 k12.2 tops
@@MichaelCurtisAudio the audience is on the stands and im on the floor along with the cheer groups that are performing tomorrow
@@yourangelz_513 I'm assuming you're not able to fly the speakers. I'd place all of the subs together on one side of the court, then have a K12 facing each cardinal direction, covering the middle of that side of the stands.
So I'm not understanding what you are doing here. I have Electrovoice ETX subs that have a cardioid setting . My understanding was that you could just flip them and face them backwards and then engage the cardioid setting. Am I missing something? I feel like you have left out important info.
Dang dude etx with the punch
could you please do a video on what you would do if you get a room with a "L" shape?
I think I replied to your other comment, but do you have some rough dimensions?
@@MichaelCurtisAudio at the moment i have not the dimension .can i write you back when i have them?
@@matthiazH Sure thing!