So glad to hear that! I've got a video coming out within the next 6 weeks that will dive more in depth there. For everyone else: THIS DUDE, Cameron Magee, is who showed me the flashlight analogy for the first time so long ago. Huge props to Cam, who has taught me so much in my audio journey.
Yes, most enlightening. I've always set up two groups of 4 18s, each side of the stage. Double 18s on top of them and then the mids and tops. That way, you dont need to put your mids and tops on a stand. I shall have to try the subs in the centre, but.12 of them?
@@kevinfreestone9822curious how this went with that many subs if you've tried it yet? I've also heard by coupling them in the center you actually gain some extra db's as well. I'm getting a second 18" next week so I'll have to play around with it. I could probably benefit from that a little more than you haha
I hope speaker manufacturers STOP putting pole sockets on the top of there subs and therefore encouraging users with limited acoustics knowledge to use the crappy L/R placement of subs.
@@kevinfreestone9822 depending on distance between those subs, you're getting a lot of cancellation. 1125 / distance = the frequency null (cancellation). Most times you're far better off combining all your subs in one group, to the point that you'll prob need fewer subs and less amplification.
As a systems engineer I appreciate giving some of thse basic ideas to people. Not everyone can afford to have a dedicated person to figuring out speaker set up. Almost everything is a compromise but a basic understanding of speakers and how they perform is important. I always teach people starting out the main goal is keep the sound on the people and off the walls so your maximizing the clarity and not wasting the power. subs is one of thoose things most people strugle with because it isn't always intuitive and the way low frequencies can either cancel or reinforce depending on placement. I've see damage to many systems becasue of that. Equadistant from the audience can be another goal, although just like he said the people that like it a little quiter gravitate to the off axis areas. I'm passionate about good sound for all situations and apreciate the effort to train people through your videos.
it helped me to understand why one year at gigantour i couldnt hear any bass, and i complained the sound was shit, but all my mates said it was great lol, 15 years later i learn why and understand that it was probably just my seat position and got unlucky lol, the sound system was probably super hard to set up for good sound inside festival hall in melbourne australia (i think they stopped using it for live music now unfortunatly, some of my best memories in that place)
I’m watching all of your videos and am so impressed and grateful for them. The more you give, the more you get. I hope you reap tenfold all the work, knowledge and energy you put into these videos.
Thank you so much! I'm glad they've been helpful for you in your audio journey. I've learned so much in making them by really clarifying what I think. Teaching is the best way to make sure you know somehting!
The aha moment for me...the flashlight analogy. I've always thought the tweeter should be at ear level, but this makes sense. I was concerned about going too high with our mains because the ceiling in the room we meet in has large 4 foot indented chandelier sections in the ceiling that I thought would really cause some problems. I am going to measure our room this weekend and do some FAR calculations! Our stage is really close to our audience with our portable church, so coverage has been difficult. I ended up adding two side fills in addition to our mains... but I am now wondering if I can drop those and move the mains inward. Keep up the good work Michael!
It was a dear friend of mine and audio mentor who showed me the flashlight analogy a LONG time ago and it was a literal lightbulb moment, so I'm glad it's translating and helping you as well! Having a super close stage always puts speaker placement in a tough spot. I wouldn't be afraid to put the speakers just a hair upstage if they've got pretty good pattern control in the top end. As far as tweeters at ear height goes, that’s a great guideline for a pair of studio monitors in a studio setup, but doesn’t apply to live. Let me know how your changes go!
Finally, someone who explains it clearly rather than those who like to wow us with the tech language! Thanks. The aha moment were the kids in the background and you not stopping to edit. Blessings! Thanks.
Glad my approach was helpful to you! And yes, sometimes you just gotta keep the tape rolling even if your four year old has your two year old in a headlock : ). Thank you for the kind words.
Beautiful. My band at 9 V Saturday just had a gig last night and it was in a pretty tiny bar and I am 34 years old. I have been around live music and playing live music since I was 1213 years old you just taught me the most important thing that I could have ever learned about live sound. I play bass Bass and I believe that I am going to be a headache for the rest of my band members and start implementing these values to our set up when we gig out
I knew that higher speakers could more evenly cover a wider area but the flashlight thing is really easy to visualize. I'm definitely going to use that next time somebody asks me about speaker height.
Thanks for this, it goes directly against what most people would think. Having now tested the stick setup, and I can tell very clearly the comb filtering effect. Will try the sub in the center, and also the 1.27 meter spacing with delay and inverted later.
YO! This has been super helpful! New years eve, I did my first gig with much taller tripods for the mains, and an inline gradient for the subs. It was FANTASTIC to not be bombarded with bass all night and having excellent response for the people in a big wide-open gymnasium!
This is great information. I have the Bose f1 system and it has an adjustable array and I have a couple Bose s1pros that I pair up with the Bose Sub1s and 2s depending on the situation. I done a school tailgate party with S1pros and Sub1s and they couldn't believe it produced enough for that parking lot. The dispersion on those S1 Pros and when you have the crossover through the sub it is amazing at what those little things can do
Late to the game, but wanted to thank you for an excellent video! Really helpful - the diagram with dual subs was really eye-opening for me. One thing I’d love to see in a follow-up video is the question of reflections and trying to manage them. It seems like in the model where you have both speakers pointed directly at the back wall you’d get a lot of reflection canceling vs. an angled setup, but that’s based on a naive mental model of the space. :) Would love to hear some tips and tricks for handling those both when you can move the speakers and when you can’t. Thanks again for such a terrific resource!
Thank you very much for making this video. I learned a lot from it. We have a gig tonight. I’m going with the subs in the center and outing the mains on poles left/right. Thank you again for all you do
Thank you for this data. Our Messianic synagogue just purchased two Alto TS410 speakers and a used 32 channel Mackie, and everything you said confirmed my thoughts for speaker location and angle. We are installing it all this Sunday, and I'm very optimistic and eager to hear how much better things are going to sound in comparison to what we've been using.
So Im researching speakers now, I need a new setup and been looking at sub/top combos all day, and then I come across your vid,,, learned how I have those silent alleys with that setup, even tho I love how it looks, lol ,,,and now looking for a banging center sub, thanks for the knowledge!!! 🙌
Thank you for this video. Just pieced together a PA setup for our youth retreat and wanted to know the best configuration based on room and amount of people!
Definitely utilising the angle mount & high stands from now on- have been stupidly keeping my tops at table height and redlining to fill the room 🤦♂️🤣 many thanks for these general principles to follow you’ve saved many front row eardrums lol
Michael - What an excellent video you've put together! I love how you've come up with a nice "mix" between the science and the realities of most projects for smaller events. I also enjoyed seeing you use the software tools. I can envision what that "next level" approach looks like when you have the tools and a paying gig. I do some teaching myself and I am definitely going to refer my students to your resources. Thanks!
Finally...someone who knows what they're talking about. Combine the middle sub concept with a QU PAC et. sim, and 100% of DJ's would be able to have optimized sound. Most do neither...spread their subs out and don't use an external mixer
Always helpful to get a handle on the theory, but also to remember _why_ you're doing things that way, and when to break the rules. I was at an event a couple weekends ago where somebody had the subs right in the middle .... but, because of a runway, they were about 30 feet in front of the mains, right up in the audience area. It was OK if you were off to a side, but nothing but bass if you were in the middle. In that case, I think I would've just accepted the peaks and nulls, and had them set up next to the mains. It was in a sports arena anyway, so there was PLENTY of reflection to sand down the edges a bit. ;-) Even better, though, they were apparently using a 3-way crossover, with the LF going to the subs, the MF going to the left speaker, and the HF going to the right. 😜 siiigh... I guess we all have those days. :-)
Been through a lot of your videos the last 2 1/2 hrs. Good schooling my friend. Love my K12’s…all 7 of them that serve as mains and wedges. Now moving on to RCF hdl 6a for mains. 2 per side…..for now lol. FYI family background noise comes thru on AirPods 😂 All good cuz getting this info is priceless. Thank you!
LOTS of excellent information in this, but my AHA moment was the center sub placement, specifically the "power alley" bit re side-placed subs. Cracking video!
FYI I haven't done point source speakers for mains in OVER FIFTEEN YEARS! People that think 12.2's are the cat's meow don't have experience with column arrays, like Turbosound IP3000. You can move from 80 degrees in ALL directions to 120 degrees wide and only 15 degrees vertical with column line array speakers. Just a thought.
Is there a reason you rarely see five piece bar bands using a column array as their PA? As I’m getting older, I don’t want to lift heavy speakers onto speaker stands anymore! Thinking about switching to column arrays, but everyone seems to say they’re not suitable for a band situation. We are not micing the drums or Bass…. Just vocals and guitars through the mains.
@@davehappidural9349 Those who tell you they are not suitable are simply TOTALLY WRONG!! I have been using column speakers exclusively for over FIFTEEN YEARS and will NEVER go back to point source. I do bands from three pieces to 11 piece bands with full horn sections and they work wonderfully! Point source sends the sound everywhere - to the ceiling, the floor etc. whereas line array send the sound in a beam to the audience. Since I started column speakers the bands have told me that they never sounded as good before! I started over fifteen years ago with Bose L1, but these days there are better and more affordable choices. The best bang-for-the-buck is the Turbosound IP3000. They contain 16 3.5" drivers, 2 tweeter drivers and two high-excursion 12" subs in each tower! Yes, sometimes you need to EQ them a bit differently, but they work fantastic! You can hear the guitars distinctly from the keys, etc.. So trust me and fifteen years of experience! I do sound EVERY weekend. The ONLY thing I will do to supplement the speakers is if it is a deep venue or large outdoor event. I will add a pair of RCF line array speakers on a pole on each side to push more sound out toward the back. Point Source = Dino doodoo!
Great Vid, awesome info! Can you make a similar video, this time how/where to set up your Speakers and Subs when you're at an event/venue where you're not perfectly centered? This is the "ideal" scenario, the DJ booth/stage right in the middle of the dance floor. Many times this is not the case, as you have to be in a corner due to sharing the space with another vendor and/or band. Or the venue simply decided to place the stage in the corner when they could have easily placed it in the middle of the dance floor.
Great thought! Here's the quick answer: Prioritize where your speakers are based off your relative position to the audience. Even if YOU are in a corner, you still need to have your speakers cover where the AUDIENCE. Still shoot your mains speakers through the middle of the middle and try to place them as close to the middle of those zones. Same with your subs (if LR). If center, try to move them so they're centered up on the audience. Hope that helps!
Fantastic vid and very relatable. All of this makes sense and I'm relieved that the graphics are basically revealing the picture I've been making in my head all these years. Similar to the first time I used a parametric EQ on an iPad vs just twisting the knobs all those years previous! Apparently my instincts were solid, phew! Now, you mentioned a wedding reception more than once and a DJ scenario. How about the fact that for half the night, the dancefloor is EMPTY and many rooms are much wider than deep. Half the audience is seated at tables on either side. All of your demonstrations illustrate perfectly how to arrange things for when the dancefloor is full, which is certainly the point of the party, eventually. Is it as simple as rotating the top speakers outward for speeches and low volume background music listening for the first half of the event and then back toward center for the dancefloor? In my experience, this can work well enough as well as provide some much needed reprieve for the folks that prefer to socialize away from the fray of the dance party. I'm just curious if you're software and data points can confer this better. Great channel, I've subscribed, and I appreciate your down to basics approach with the support of visual data.
Thanks for the question, Jared! To answer your question in the simplest way, point your speakers where the people are : ). If for the first part of your gig folks are spread out, do your best to choose speakers, place and aim them to cover that setup. If the gig changes and now your "primary audience" is the dance floor, then point your speakers towards them.
I think I'd love to be able to put subs in the middle, based on your viewable setups, but I get a lot of friction from various factions. Without some version of a cardioid setup, the singers are annoyed by that much bass backfire. Short distance to the edge of the dancefloor severely limits cardiod options to begin with. Besides that, the planners, tend to prefer the clean look of a center stage area and expect all speakers to be on the sides. Occasionally I tilt the subs inward some, but never really sure if that actually makes much difference. Would your software make this subtle change visible? I try to Xover below 100, so the subs are surely just that, subs.
@@jaredstreeter5911 Tilting in the subs will make little difference. But I wouldn't wory too much about the LR setup indoors, the wall reflections will help fill in the gaps.
I would just add that for me, I want to concentrate the highest sound pressure levels on the dance floor itself and minimize that sound throughout the rest of the room. Without a center speaker for fill, I would angle the side speakers to point toward the center point of the dance floor, keeping the subs in an array at center stage.
This would actually cause destructive interference. Unless you're coupling speakers on purpose, they should never point in a direction where the sound waves overlap in the middle...
I agree with the below commenter that, while SPL coverage diagrams alone are certainly helpful for predicting success at outdoor events, your analysis, as far as I can tell, completely ignores the affect of room reverberation, which is one of the most important factors preventing “clean and clear” sound at an indoor event. In order to get the clearest sound, you want the ratio of direct ( sound coming directly from the PA speaker) to reverberant (sound reflecting from room boundary surfaces one or mor times) sound to be as high as possible. In order to achieve this, it is important to steer the speakers such that their radiation pattern misses the walls (and to a lesser degree floor and ceiling). In order to maximize direct to reverberant sound ratio, it’s best to cover as much of the audience as possible with direct sound from BOTH speakers (i.e. overlap the coverage patterns such that the each cover as much of the audience as possible while missing the walls). Another factor not being taken into consideration is the desire for the sound to appear to be coming from the same location as the performer (your brain determines direction by comparing first arrival time of direct sound at left and right ear). If you move the speakers too far from the stage and you split the coverage of the audience between speakers, the listeners attention will be drawn to the position of the speaker on his/her side of the stage, not the performer. This is another reason for wanting as much of the audience as possible to be receiving direct sound from speakers on both sides of the stage.
Great points here, Jeremy. I agree with you that direct to reverberant ratio is very important and keeping as much energy from the speakers steered towards the audience vs the walls very much helps in that regard. However, IMHO, steering the speakers inwards will possibly help keep less upper HF energy off the side walls, but most arrays or point sources, especially, in the horizontal plane, have a wide enough pattern in the TMid frequencies and below that any rotation won't make much as difference as you'd think in overall clarity. Having generous overlap between two speaker zones with correlated content simply guarantees comb filtering rather than possibly inheriting it from a later reflection. High frequencies are also the easiest and simplest to treat with more affordable absorption materials, so optimizing the speaker system for coverage and tonal uniformity is priority one, then use sound damping to take care of what's left. Like you mentioned, SPL isn't everything. Just because I can get +-3dB front to back with a 16 box line array hang in an arena doesn't mean the rear seats won't have a different perception than the front. Much more reverb in the back. Some impulse responses of the space as well as looking at measurement coherence will help signal if additional acoustic measures are needed. I also think my own bias is that in the vast majority of the live events I do I have zero control over the acoustics and can't get any IRs ahead of time, so optimizing the PA for tonal and level uniformity is all that I can do. As far as imaging goes, that's a tradeoff to consider on a per-gig-basis. You're right, I should have talked about that more in the video. Thanks again for the great points and conversation.
I loved the sound of QSC and used them for years. Beware of the newer models. I had issues with latest firmware randomly shutting off. Well documented online and on Sweetwater user reviews. I had to switch to EV which is working great.
The power Alley is something interesting. Although I've always intuitively kind of angle the speakers and I don't know why and now I have a reason why.
If I'm not mistaken, I think you get some coupling from putting the subs together as well. Could be wrong though, great video! I was always hesitant to point the mains toward the center at all, now I can be much more confident in my aiming
You are the man!! I’ve been looking for this type of info to setup my churchs system properly!! I am studio head so coming from that why wouldn’t you setup the mix position in the center of the room? Thanks so much!
Welcome to the live music world : ). I, too, started in studio world. The reason why I wouldn't mix in the center is that a very, very small portion of your audience as actually in the "sweet spot". The minute you take a few steps left or right the precedence effect draws your ear's "attention" to the speaker that's louder and closer. Mixing on-axis (directly in the center of one of your speaker's coverage) gives you the clearest idea of what's happening in the middle of your zones, then you can assume HF will taper off from there.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio Mann oh man!! That makes so much sense!! Love it man!! I will definitely watch all the videos in your channel!! Thanks for sharing your knowledge!! 🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽
@@MichaelCurtisAudio this is the first time I've learned something from a RUclips comment that totally changed how I mix shows. Michael you're incredible
Great example and illustrations! Q- I am buying 2-10” (400 watts) powered speakers for a room that’s 60x80, rectangular. Buddhist monk will only do lecture and chant front of stage that’s 2’ high. Members are about 6’ away from front. As alternative to front placements-- can I place speakers on side walls-7’ mounted?
Hi Michael, Thank you for sharing all your knowledge in these videos. All of them are really very helpful for us to learn about audio tuning. One more help, i could not download the audio math spreadsheet. Can you help with that..Thanks!!
Great info Michael and thank you! I have 4 of the JBL PRX 818 and 815s and I recently added the SRX Dual 18 sub for the center. I wish I could figure out a good config for when I use all of this outside any suggestions would be appreciated.
Hey, Kevin! I'm not sure if you've seen the video that published today, but it covers 7 different setups and their underlying fundamentals. Watch that and let me know if you have any further questions. ruclips.net/video/Q4ny703u-ks/видео.html
Hi Curtis. Could you make a video about what could be problematic when speakers are too close to the side walls in a narrow concert hall. Especially wide angle line array speakers. Because people usually wish to use whole area between left and right walls to construct the stage if the room is narrow. To avoid masking the stage, their best option is usually placing speakers up and as close to side walls as possible.
What do you think using a placement for small venues where your audience is wider than deeper and you have only 2 speakers? I did a "crossed eye" type and saved the centered audience and somehow it got a decent signal to the sides. By decent I mean IT WAS able to keep audience attention/presence. That was wild! THANKS FOR YOUR VIDEOS!!!
Hey, Cesar. I would probably cheat my speakers in a little bit closer to the stage and angle them out towards the sides. Super wide rooms are pretty tough!
This is a great video. I wish someone like you would do a video about how to get the most out of the simple portable PAs that are incredibly common out here in fly-over country. I suppose there's no way to get the great sound that you can get from a real system, but I'm sure most of us amateurs could do a better job and give our audiences a better experience if we had a little guidance from a good technician. In my experience in bars and small venues I see, (and hear), a lot more portable units with around 1000 watts 4 to 10 channels and basic controls than I do big boards with sophisticated equalizers, sub-woofers, and monitors.
I'm glad this was helpful to you, Joshua. Just to be clear, are you talking about getting good results in a bar/club setting with a simple 8ch analog mixer and a couple of speakers on sticks?
@@MichaelCurtisAudio Yeah.... That's pretty much what I'm talking about. In my experience as a very amateur musician, that sort of system is extremely common and they're usually set up by the performer. It's also extremely common for the sound to be pretty terrible. I rather expect you to tell me that there isn't much that can be done to make such a system perform well, but I'm hoping I'm wrong and there might be techniques/skills that can be used to at least make such a system sound less bad. If anyone is addressing this on the internet I haven't found it. I wonder about things like running instruments through the board? (again, in my experience, a lot of musicians set up and only use the PA for vocals). Is it a good idea to use some kind of sub with a crossover in small setting? Even if you don't need more volume, particularly bass? If all you have to work with are the simple EQ controls that are usually on a portable PA how do you get the best sound? Using monitors when you can't create a separate monitor mix? I'm sure there are many other aspects that I know nothing about. But, if someone - you perhaps - knows how to get the most out of a simple set up, it would be a great benefit to us who are trying to make good music in small venues and even more of a benefit to our audiences. There's a lot of us out here.
Michael do you have a video on setting up delay fills for outdoor venues? I've been prepping for some shows this summer and am all set with my matrices configured (not unlike a cry room send). I'm concerned about placement though so having a video or comment or some resources on that would help greatly!
I don't currently have one out in the wild, but I've got an outline made for a future video. I'll see if I can bump it on my content timeline and get it out there!
Hey new viewer here, love the content so far. Really appreciate the simple explanations and visuals. We're currently looking into a church remodel and I've been asked to think about speakers bring the "sound guy". I have a decent base of knowledge from home theater background but this is different for sure. Currently running 2 old flyers which will be getting retired. Awful dispersion and frequency response. We have two QSC K10s plus matching 1kw sub. I was thinking about adding two more k10.2s. But I'm not sure how to lay out 4 speakers. Room is rectangle so I was thinking each corner but I know our ears appreciate sound from the front vs coming from behind. How would you tackle a 4 speaker layout in the same scenario as the video above? Lots of height to fly in the front of house, in the back it tapers to 12ft.
Great stuff. Would have liked to see some mention of comb filtering via overlapping speakers - or is that never really a concern? Oh, also, when you're doing subdivide and conquer, are you running in mono?
Thank you so much! In this type of setup comb filtering is inevitable since I'm unable to steer lows and low mids with such a small box. It's not until I am able to increase line length with a line array that I am able to "steer" low mids. So, yes, there is comb filtering in the low mids, but I would rather have even high frequency coverage by positioning my mains to subdivide and conquer. Yes, I run the rig in mono if there's no overlap between the mains.
Hi from India, Really informative video for a layman, who is volunteering for a non profit and money wise poor organisation. So Namskaram to you for the knowledge. Honda Civic is an expensive car in India that few can afford. So I wonder what are the speakers available at the usual speaker rentals in India. If anyone knows please do tell. How about placing multiple speakers at the sides . Say 4 speakers from left and four at the right facing each other ( with spacing to take care of the 80 degree range)?
A big factor in sub placement for me is whether people will be able to put their drinks down on them or not. Especially when alcohol is involved. If yes, I know I'm going to be spending half the show worrying about and trying to avoid having drinks spill on powered subs.
Great infos here! Do you have a quick tip for a non-centered stage in an asymmetrical room? I suppose it gets really complicated there, but maybe there are some quick and dirty rules-of-thumb one can navigate along
The same principles still apply, but yes an awkwardly placed stage definitely throws a kink in things. At the end of day, when working with point sources, you're prioritizing having the most amount of folks getting HF coverage. So, no matter where you put your speakers, make sure that's happening.
You got it! Yes, there will inevitably be SOME comb filtering, but by intentionally placing and aiming the front fill to only cover where the mains are not, then time aligning the front fill to where it and the mains are equal and level, you'll only be hearing comb filtering at the seams of those zones.
Any thoughts on how I can make my centered cardioid subwoofers visually appealing for weddings? I SO want to setup this way, but split subs is logistically so convenient, LOL! I've got two KS118's and two K10.2's. The casters are a problem when they're aimed in opposite directions because they stick out pretty far. I've thought about a piece of plywood to go on top that goes just past the casters on both sides and then covering that with a cloth, then the cloth will drape evenly. There's got to be some really creative, clever, and beautiful solution. Maybe I could invite bridesmaids to dance on top of them, right in front of my booth? Would a TV be rattled to pieces if it were on top of the subs?
I think you're on to something with the TV and table idea. You could get some acoustic isolation pads that are used for studio speakers and place the TV stand on top of those?
Great video, and it's reassuring that my methods aren't completely mad. I use the 2.4M Gravity stands (I have the sub poles too) and on top I place a tilt adaptor so I can toe my speakers down a little if I need to. With a pair of ELX-200-12 passive tops and a pair of the ELX-200-18S subs, I'm getting great results by getting the tops up high and putting small angles on them. They're great speakers for the price too; planning to get another system this summer...if the supply doesn't run out. :D
@@ayoanil Gravity make adjustable tilt adaptors. I vary the tilt and toe depending on the height/coverage needed. If I can find it, I'll get you the gravity part number...
Wondering what your opinion would be of the Alto Professional speakers available. I have a pair of the 10" tops with a pair of 15" subs. So far, I've been very happy with them, and they do get loud enough for the venues I do. But no one really talks about them.
What do you recomend for small outdoor Techno/Rave partys, for around 3-500 peoples ? To be honest i looking for 2 tops and 2 subs. Right now i looking at Mackie DRM active 15" speakers and Mackie DRM active 18" subs.
Well I haven't had an aha moment as for some reason ambience and just pretty much every single thing that you explained always came as common sense to me I guess not everybody is exactly like me LOL but there are other people out there that are like me that could just figure it out by the auditory perception where they could just walk around and hear phase cancellation and whatnot. Now I don't have a super advanced system as you have I have a four stack with each stack has one 18-in subwoofer one 12-in mid base one 12-in mid range and one 10-in tweeter {I know all of those aren't quite exactly the right way to address those speakers} The signals are being split from two behringer super x pro 4-way crossovers so that way I have stereo left and right powered by 4 amps so that way each stereo amp will power each channel independently. My question is my biggest amp (4500 w) seems like the bass is never loud enough and when I turn it up it clips my amp and protect will come on also (but not everytime) even though they are maximum 2,000 w and RMS is 800 or something close to that maybe a little bit more so of course you know 4,500 watts is not actually 4,500 Watts in all reality it might be 2,000 w maximum so I know the amps aren't overpowering the subs and the subs aren't too powerful for the amp to push so usually this is for outdoor events not indoor so what do I do? Also I stacked the speakers on top of each other and when I stack them everything else seems to sound just fine.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio well they are pro audio subs so 8 ohms I think they are. just not too sure what you mean by nominal impedance. Also they are sitting side by side away from each other usually no less than 10 ft apart on each corner of the stage or platform area on the ground but I have to use them to put the other speaker on top it's you know got the poles if that makes sense LOL. now I really haven't tried them inside any place I've mostly just done it outside except for when I bring them to my friend's basement they sound really really good but of course it's an enclosed space the base is Basie the highs are high and everything in between it all sounds wonderful
These videos are making me want to learn more and do more! I do however have a question, what about center clusters? I have a local church that is struggling to get a good mix through a center cluster that was permanently installed several years ago. They are willing to replace the speakers or just whatever it takes to get a good sound. Should i offer leaving a center cluster or sell them on moving to a LR setup? I will be going soon to measure the room and see what’s actually going on!
Hey, Ben. I've spec'd center clusters on several projects if they get the coverage of the space most uniform. A great mix will still translate on a center mono setup. If LR can help cover the audience better in a specific use case, then great.
Great video and thanks for sharing info Question for u: what if bride and groom are on that center stage u mentioned and u have been given a stage in one corner on right How to cover all areas and set up speakers? Pl advise
Same concepts apply - subdivide the room into as many zones as speakers you have, then point your speakers down the middle of the middle of those zones.
Hi Michael! Thank you for sharing your knowledge! I'm just wonder what your thoughts are on the K.2 series vs the original K series. I've heard people say that the K.2 series are unreliable, unlike the original K series.
K12.2 horns should not be coupled next to the ceiling. Can you describe the critical problems this can create and two of these cabinets side by side can you describe the problems. I've been trying to help out a club but there's and thing called bar owners syndrome. Mumpsimus. I'm so glad I've encountered you Michael and your learning videos. Maybe soon I'll take a gamble and purchase smaart v9 but learning how to use it is my old mind capable? 😢 I need to learn this.
In short, the ceiling reflections cause late arrivals and therefore comb filtering. And when two speakers that aren't meant to be arrayed together have high overlap in the HF it creates comb filtering as well due to the difference in arrival times.
What really missing from this video is how speaker placement in relation to the walls affect the sound in the room. Also, placing the two subwoofers only 100 inches apart will eliminate this "power alleys" issue and make both speakers reinforce each other. Unfortunately "looking nice" is often more important than "sounding nice".
Love the video dude. Got a sub. I'm about to play a show with a stage that is only about 12 inches above the floor. Do you think it would be ok to place subs on stage as it is still relatively low to floor. I ask because my subs are usually connected via a threaded pole to my loud-speakers above. Cheers!
Hi Michael, what a fantastic video, thank you! What sort of speaker would you recommend for front fill in a scenario like the example in this vid? Would you typically just use another K12 (or similar)? Also, as well as height, what sort of vertical angle should you be aiming for? Thank you again!
Thanks, Cameron! Another K12 or similar speaker would work great. And as far as vertical aiming, I usually end up aiming my point source speakers at the back row.
I would really appreciate your thoughts on one of the column arrays like the EV30M (120 degrees of horizontal) or the Bose L1 Pro 8 (180 degrees horizontal) vs a 2 speaker system like the Yamaha 400BT vs the Everse 8 that is 100 x 100 degrees dispersion. I'm a singer/songwriter and do solo acoustic performances.
Great videos! Learning so much, thank you. I have 4 yamaha powered subs that crossover at 100hz. Should I butt them all up together in the center or maybe space them apart a bit? If so, how to decide on the distance. And would I lose the coupling effect?
Independent of how u feel about the column array speakers, the fact that the columns MUST be clipped into the subs, and then they are set wide L/R, they kind of encourage the power alley’s and valleys… it’s almost as if the makers need to offer column “holders” so the subs can be placed both in the middle of the stage…
We’ve been using the K12s with subs forever. We just switched to using a couple of Bose L1 model 2. Life changing for the better! No need for monitors and easily mixed from the stage. Do you have a video using any Bose systems?
Glad to hear your Bose rig has served you well. I don't have any videos on Bose systems, but the biggest different is that most Bose rigs will have much wider coverage (up to 160° on some of their rigs). That's probably why you're hearing a lot of the PA on stage.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio thanks for getting back to me, your videos have a lot of great info! We play all over the northwest and we just started using the Bose with subs for clubs. We set them up behind us. We’re a rocking blues band ala SRV, Trower, ZZ. We’re very happy having an easier set up but for our outdoor gigs we use our QSC system and your videos will come in handy. Thanks!
Great tutorial info indeed that has enlightened some of the grey areas. Just a question here...How would I have to go with FOH speakers that are atop sticks that use subs as floor-based stands? Would I have to separate the subs and speakers and rearrange their individual placements?
Can you demonstrate splaying let’s say, a pair of K8’s together for Mains and / or front fills. Using the 9 1/2 trim height for the mains on speaker stands. My initial concerns are in the comb flltering issues vs coverage advantages (most venues using dual projection screens do not allow for center of the center speaker placement)
@@gemk007 Yup! I looked at their specs and they go "up to" 120° horizontal coverage. So, they're a pretty wide speaker, but will definitely do the job.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio let’s say I’m setting up more than two of them in a live band setting I do live sound how. Far apart should they be to stop cone filtering a total of 4 , 2per side
One question. If the speakers in the hall are aimed exactly at the back wall, and not in the center of the hall, then where should the sound engineer be located? And the second question. If the sound engineer is in the middle of the room near the back wall, where should the speakers be directed? We have two speakers and two subwoofers. And the third question. how to install subwoofers? Should I put them together next to each other or move them apart? Thank you. Greetings from Lithuania!
Would love your feedback on the RCF evox 12 , it has a 90 x 30 degree spread , I also own the KW 12 speakers , I get asked if my Speakers are loud enough for a 300 plus event , would love your feedback on this , I’ve combined both setups together in the past with a KW 118 sub, I just want to make sure I’m using and placing my equipment in the proper place , these videos are awesome btw, thank you 🙏
I've never used the RCF evox 12's, so I can't help you there. A nice tight 30° vertical beam seems nice, though! 300 plus gives me some idea of the event, but it's ultimately up to the audience size. Are they crammed into a club? Or spread out in lawn chairs outdoors? I'm glad you like the videos!
That subwoofer power alley/valley visual was a game-changer.
So glad to hear that! I've got a video coming out within the next 6 weeks that will dive more in depth there.
For everyone else: THIS DUDE, Cameron
Magee, is who showed me the flashlight analogy for the first time so long ago. Huge props to Cam, who has taught me so much in my audio journey.
Yes, most enlightening. I've always set up two groups of 4 18s, each side of the stage. Double 18s on top of them and then the mids and tops. That way, you dont need to put your mids and tops on a stand. I shall have to try the subs in the centre, but.12 of them?
@@kevinfreestone9822curious how this went with that many subs if you've tried it yet? I've also heard by coupling them in the center you actually gain some extra db's as well. I'm getting a second 18" next week so I'll have to play around with it. I could probably benefit from that a little more than you haha
I hope speaker manufacturers STOP putting pole sockets on the top of there subs and therefore encouraging users with limited acoustics knowledge to use the crappy L/R placement of subs.
@@kevinfreestone9822 depending on distance between those subs, you're getting a lot of cancellation. 1125 / distance = the frequency null (cancellation). Most times you're far better off combining all your subs in one group, to the point that you'll prob need fewer subs and less amplification.
As a systems engineer I appreciate giving some of thse basic ideas to people. Not everyone can afford to have a dedicated person to figuring out speaker set up. Almost everything is a compromise but a basic understanding of speakers and how they perform is important. I always teach people starting out the main goal is keep the sound on the people and off the walls so your maximizing the clarity and not wasting the power. subs is one of thoose things most people strugle with because it isn't always intuitive and the way low frequencies can either cancel or reinforce depending on placement. I've see damage to many systems becasue of that. Equadistant from the audience can be another goal, although just like he said the people that like it a little quiter gravitate to the off axis areas.
I'm passionate about good sound for all situations and apreciate the effort to train people through your videos.
it helped me to understand why one year at gigantour i couldnt hear any bass, and i complained the sound was shit, but all my mates said it was great lol, 15 years later i learn why and understand that it was probably just my seat position and got unlucky lol, the sound system was probably super hard to set up for good sound inside festival hall in melbourne australia (i think they stopped using it for live music now unfortunatly, some of my best memories in that place)
I’m watching all of your videos and am so impressed and grateful for them. The more you give, the more you get. I hope you reap tenfold all the work, knowledge and energy you put into these videos.
Thank you so much! I'm glad they've been helpful for you in your audio journey. I've learned so much in making them by really clarifying what I think. Teaching is the best way to make sure you know somehting!
Separating the subs to evenly distribute the sound and avoid power alleys has really been an eye opener for me. Thank you!
You're very welcome!
The aha moment for me...the flashlight analogy. I've always thought the tweeter should be at ear level, but this makes sense. I was concerned about going too high with our mains because the ceiling in the room we meet in has large 4 foot indented chandelier sections in the ceiling that I thought would really cause some problems. I am going to measure our room this weekend and do some FAR calculations! Our stage is really close to our audience with our portable church, so coverage has been difficult. I ended up adding two side fills in addition to our mains... but I am now wondering if I can drop those and move the mains inward. Keep up the good work Michael!
It was a dear friend of mine and audio mentor who showed me the flashlight analogy a LONG time ago and it was a literal lightbulb moment, so I'm glad it's translating and helping you as well!
Having a super close stage always puts speaker placement in a tough spot. I wouldn't be afraid to put the speakers just a hair upstage if they've got pretty good pattern control in the top end.
As far as tweeters at ear height goes, that’s a great guideline for a pair of studio monitors in a studio setup, but doesn’t apply to live.
Let me know how your changes go!
Finally, someone who explains it clearly rather than those who like to wow us with the tech language! Thanks. The aha moment were the kids in the background and you not stopping to edit. Blessings! Thanks.
Glad my approach was helpful to you! And yes, sometimes you just gotta keep the tape rolling even if your four year old has your two year old in a headlock : ). Thank you for the kind words.
Beautiful. My band at 9 V Saturday just had a gig last night and it was in a pretty tiny bar and I am 34 years old. I have been around live music and playing live music since I was 1213 years old you just taught me the most important thing that I could have ever learned about live sound. I play bass Bass and I believe that I am going to be a headache for the rest of my band members and start implementing these values to our set up when we gig out
So glad that this is helpful for you! I'm a bass player, too : ). Keep the bottom.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio I tried to get the spreadsheet through this link but it didn't work. How can I get it?
I knew that higher speakers could more evenly cover a wider area but the flashlight thing is really easy to visualize. I'm definitely going to use that next time somebody asks me about speaker height.
I'm glad that analogy helped! It makes me want to throw all super short speaker stands in a wood chipper : )
Thanks for this, it goes directly against what most people would think. Having now tested the stick setup, and I can tell very clearly the comb filtering effect. Will try the sub in the center, and also the 1.27 meter spacing with delay and inverted later.
Give it a shot and let me know how it goes!
Very good video! The front fill changed everything. I didn't know how to properly distribute the sound to the front of the stage.
YO! This has been super helpful! New years eve, I did my first gig with much taller tripods for the mains, and an inline gradient for the subs. It was FANTASTIC to not be bombarded with bass all night and having excellent response for the people in a big wide-open gymnasium!
So glad to hear that, Mark!
This is great information. I have the Bose f1 system and it has an adjustable array and I have a couple Bose s1pros that I pair up with the Bose Sub1s and 2s depending on the situation. I done a school tailgate party with S1pros and Sub1s and they couldn't believe it produced enough for that parking lot. The dispersion on those S1 Pros and when you have the crossover through the sub it is amazing at what those little things can do
I'll have to check those out!
The visuals of the sound wave was very helpful. Also the use of the center fill sub with a monitor.
Late to the game, but wanted to thank you for an excellent video! Really helpful - the diagram with dual subs was really eye-opening for me. One thing I’d love to see in a follow-up video is the question of reflections and trying to manage them. It seems like in the model where you have both speakers pointed directly at the back wall you’d get a lot of reflection canceling vs. an angled setup, but that’s based on a naive mental model of the space. :) Would love to hear some tips and tricks for handling those both when you can move the speakers and when you can’t. Thanks again for such a terrific resource!
Thank you very much for making this video. I learned a lot from it. We have a gig tonight. I’m going with the subs in the center and outing the mains on poles left/right. Thank you again for all you do
Thank you for this data. Our Messianic synagogue just purchased two Alto TS410 speakers and a used 32 channel Mackie, and everything you said confirmed my thoughts for speaker location and angle. We are installing it all this Sunday, and I'm very optimistic and eager to hear how much better things are going to sound in comparison to what we've been using.
You’re very welcome! Let me know how it goes.
So Im researching speakers now, I need a new setup and been looking at sub/top combos all day, and then I come across your vid,,, learned how I have those silent alleys with that setup, even tho I love how it looks, lol ,,,and now looking for a banging center sub, thanks for the knowledge!!! 🙌
Thank you for this video. Just pieced together a PA setup for our youth retreat and wanted to know the best configuration based on room and amount of people!
Glad it's helpful to you!
Definitely utilising the angle mount & high stands from now on- have been stupidly keeping my tops at table height and redlining to fill the room 🤦♂️🤣 many thanks for these general principles to follow you’ve saved many front row eardrums lol
You're very welcome!
Michael - What an excellent video you've put together! I love how you've come up with a nice "mix" between the science and the realities of most projects for smaller events. I also enjoyed seeing you use the software tools. I can envision what that "next level" approach looks like when you have the tools and a paying gig. I do some teaching myself and I am definitely going to refer my students to your resources. Thanks!
Thank you for the kind words! Yes, my hope is to make this seemingly black box of voodoo a bit more approachable to your everyday engineer.
Finally...someone who knows what they're talking about. Combine the middle sub concept with a QU PAC et. sim, and 100% of DJ's would be able to have optimized sound. Most do neither...spread their subs out and don't use an external mixer
Thanks for the kind words!
Very helpful. Am a Dj and event organizer......Setting up a quality sound for my event is always my optimum goal
You're very welcome! Let me know if this helps out at your next gig.
Always helpful to get a handle on the theory, but also to remember _why_ you're doing things that way, and when to break the rules.
I was at an event a couple weekends ago where somebody had the subs right in the middle .... but, because of a runway, they were about 30 feet in front of the mains, right up in the audience area. It was OK if you were off to a side, but nothing but bass if you were in the middle. In that case, I think I would've just accepted the peaks and nulls, and had them set up next to the mains. It was in a sports arena anyway, so there was PLENTY of reflection to sand down the edges a bit. ;-)
Even better, though, they were apparently using a 3-way crossover, with the LF going to the subs, the MF going to the left speaker, and the HF going to the right. 😜 siiigh... I guess we all have those days. :-)
Been through a lot of your videos the last 2 1/2 hrs. Good schooling my friend. Love my K12’s…all 7 of them that serve as mains and wedges. Now moving on to RCF hdl 6a for mains. 2 per side…..for now lol. FYI family background noise comes thru on AirPods 😂 All good cuz getting this info is priceless. Thank you!
LOTS of excellent information in this, but my AHA moment was the center sub placement, specifically the "power alley" bit re side-placed subs. Cracking video!
Thank you so much! Glad it was helpful to you.
Thank you for the 💡moment. I have work for bands and DJ events. Your video and the spreadsheet very helpful. New subscriber
I liked when you said to aim the tweeters at the back row
FYI I haven't done point source speakers for mains in OVER FIFTEEN YEARS! People that think 12.2's are the cat's meow don't have experience with column arrays, like Turbosound IP3000. You can move from 80 degrees in ALL directions to 120 degrees wide and only 15 degrees vertical with column line array speakers. Just a thought.
Is there a reason you rarely see five piece bar bands using a column array as their PA? As I’m getting older, I don’t want to lift heavy speakers onto speaker stands anymore! Thinking about switching to column arrays, but everyone seems to say they’re not suitable for a band situation. We are not micing the drums or Bass…. Just vocals and guitars through the mains.
@@davehappidural9349 Those who tell you they are not suitable are simply TOTALLY WRONG!! I have been using column speakers exclusively for over FIFTEEN YEARS and will NEVER go back to point source. I do bands from three pieces to 11 piece bands with full horn sections and they work wonderfully! Point source sends the sound everywhere - to the ceiling, the floor etc. whereas line array send the sound in a beam to the audience. Since I started column speakers the bands have told me that they never sounded as good before! I started over fifteen years ago with Bose L1, but these days there are better and more affordable choices. The best bang-for-the-buck is the Turbosound IP3000. They contain 16 3.5" drivers, 2 tweeter drivers and two high-excursion 12" subs in each tower! Yes, sometimes you need to EQ them a bit differently, but they work fantastic! You can hear the guitars distinctly from the keys, etc.. So trust me and fifteen years of experience! I do sound EVERY weekend. The ONLY thing I will do to supplement the speakers is if it is a deep venue or large outdoor event. I will add a pair of RCF line array speakers on a pole on each side to push more sound out toward the back. Point Source = Dino doodoo!
Great Vid, awesome info! Can you make a similar video, this time how/where to set up your Speakers and Subs when you're at an event/venue where you're not perfectly centered? This is the "ideal" scenario, the DJ booth/stage right in the middle of the dance floor. Many times this is not the case, as you have to be in a corner due to sharing the space with another vendor and/or band. Or the venue simply decided to place the stage in the corner when they could have easily placed it in the middle of the dance floor.
Great thought! Here's the quick answer: Prioritize where your speakers are based off your relative position to the audience. Even if YOU are in a corner, you still need to have your speakers cover where the AUDIENCE. Still shoot your mains speakers through the middle of the middle and try to place them as close to the middle of those zones. Same with your subs (if LR). If center, try to move them so they're centered up on the audience. Hope that helps!
@@MichaelCurtisAudio I appreciate your feedback/reply!
@@djmigueladrian You're welcome!
Fantastic vid and very relatable. All of this makes sense and I'm relieved that the graphics are basically revealing the picture I've been making in my head all these years. Similar to the first time I used a parametric EQ on an iPad vs just twisting the knobs all those years previous! Apparently my instincts were solid, phew!
Now, you mentioned a wedding reception more than once and a DJ scenario. How about the fact that for half the night, the dancefloor is EMPTY and many rooms are much wider than deep. Half the audience is seated at tables on either side. All of your demonstrations illustrate perfectly how to arrange things for when the dancefloor is full, which is certainly the point of the party, eventually. Is it as simple as rotating the top speakers outward for speeches and low volume background music listening for the first half of the event and then back toward center for the dancefloor? In my experience, this can work well enough as well as provide some much needed reprieve for the folks that prefer to socialize away from the fray of the dance party. I'm just curious if you're software and data points can confer this better.
Great channel, I've subscribed, and I appreciate your down to basics approach with the support of visual data.
Thanks for the question, Jared! To answer your question in the simplest way, point your speakers where the people are : ). If for the first part of your gig folks are spread out, do your best to choose speakers, place and aim them to cover that setup. If the gig changes and now your "primary audience" is the dance floor, then point your speakers towards them.
I think I'd love to be able to put subs in the middle, based on your viewable setups, but I get a lot of friction from various factions. Without some version of a cardioid setup, the singers are annoyed by that much bass backfire. Short distance to the edge of the dancefloor severely limits cardiod options to begin with. Besides that, the planners, tend to prefer the clean look of a center stage area and expect all speakers to be on the sides. Occasionally I tilt the subs inward some, but never really sure if that actually makes much difference. Would your software make this subtle change visible? I try to Xover below 100, so the subs are surely just that, subs.
@@jaredstreeter5911 Tilting in the subs will make little difference. But I wouldn't wory too much about the LR setup indoors, the wall reflections will help fill in the gaps.
Yes, your ‘center/target’ is different for dinner/speeches than it is for dancing.
Thank you so much for your tutorials, and also the "Audio Math Survival" spreadsheet! This is so helpful. Kine regards!
How did you get the audio math spreadsheet. Tried to get through this link but didn't work.
I would just add that for me, I want to concentrate the highest sound pressure levels on the dance floor itself and minimize that sound throughout the rest of the room. Without a center speaker for fill, I would angle the side speakers to point toward the center point of the dance floor, keeping the subs in an array at center stage.
This would actually cause destructive interference. Unless you're coupling speakers on purpose, they should never point in a direction where the sound waves overlap in the middle...
I agree with the below commenter that, while SPL coverage diagrams alone are certainly helpful for predicting success at outdoor events, your analysis, as far as I can tell, completely ignores the affect of room reverberation, which is one of the most important factors preventing “clean and clear” sound at an indoor event. In order to get the clearest sound, you want the ratio of direct ( sound coming directly from the PA speaker) to reverberant (sound reflecting from room boundary surfaces one or mor times) sound to be as high as possible. In order to achieve this, it is important to steer the speakers such that their radiation pattern misses the walls (and to a lesser degree floor and ceiling). In order to maximize direct to reverberant sound ratio, it’s best to cover as much of the audience as possible with direct sound from BOTH speakers (i.e. overlap the coverage patterns such that the each cover as much of the audience as possible while missing the walls).
Another factor not being taken into consideration is the desire for the sound to appear to be coming from the same location as the performer (your brain determines direction by comparing first arrival time of direct sound at left and right ear). If you move the speakers too far from the stage and you split the coverage of the audience between speakers, the listeners attention will be drawn to the position of the speaker on his/her side of the stage, not the performer. This is another reason for wanting as much of the audience as possible to be receiving direct sound from speakers on both sides of the stage.
Great points here, Jeremy. I agree with you that direct to reverberant ratio is very important and keeping as much energy from the speakers steered towards the audience vs the walls very much helps in that regard.
However, IMHO, steering the speakers inwards will possibly help keep less upper HF energy off the side walls, but most arrays or point sources, especially, in the horizontal plane, have a wide enough pattern in the TMid frequencies and below that any rotation won't make much as difference as you'd think in overall clarity. Having generous overlap between two speaker zones with correlated content simply guarantees comb filtering rather than possibly inheriting it from a later reflection. High frequencies are also the easiest and simplest to treat with more affordable absorption materials, so optimizing the speaker system for coverage and tonal uniformity is priority one, then use sound damping to take care of what's left.
Like you mentioned, SPL isn't everything. Just because I can get +-3dB front to back with a 16 box line array hang in an arena doesn't mean the rear seats won't have a different perception than the front. Much more reverb in the back. Some impulse responses of the space as well as looking at measurement coherence will help signal if additional acoustic measures are needed.
I also think my own bias is that in the vast majority of the live events I do I have zero control over the acoustics and can't get any IRs ahead of time, so optimizing the PA for tonal and level uniformity is all that I can do.
As far as imaging goes, that's a tradeoff to consider on a per-gig-basis. You're right, I should have talked about that more in the video.
Thanks again for the great points and conversation.
thanks for explaining the coverage angle
You got it.
I loved the sound of QSC and used them for years. Beware of the newer models. I had issues with latest firmware randomly shutting off. Well documented online and on Sweetwater user reviews. I had to switch to EV which is working great.
The power Alley is something interesting. Although I've always intuitively kind of angle the speakers and I don't know why and now I have a reason why.
this is helpful. corporate A1 who has been mixing music also for just over a year.
If I'm not mistaken, I think you get some coupling from putting the subs together as well. Could be wrong though, great video! I was always hesitant to point the mains toward the center at all, now I can be much more confident in my aiming
Yes, putting the subs together gets you maximum coupling and is the most efficient use of your low end. Glad you found the video helpful!
You are the man!! I’ve been looking for this type of info to setup my churchs system properly!! I am studio head so coming from that why wouldn’t you setup the mix position in the center of the room? Thanks so much!
Welcome to the live music world : ). I, too, started in studio world.
The reason why I wouldn't mix in the center is that a very, very small portion of your audience as actually in the "sweet spot". The minute you take a few steps left or right the precedence effect draws your ear's "attention" to the speaker that's louder and closer. Mixing on-axis (directly in the center of one of your speaker's coverage) gives you the clearest idea of what's happening in the middle of your zones, then you can assume HF will taper off from there.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio Mann oh man!! That makes so much sense!! Love it man!! I will definitely watch all the videos in your channel!! Thanks for sharing your knowledge!! 🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽
@@Raymanuelmuzik You're so very welcome!
This video goes more in depth on the "stereo" debate - ruclips.net/video/DHlbu9qupOo/видео.html
@@MichaelCurtisAudio will check it out!! 🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽
@@MichaelCurtisAudio this is the first time I've learned something from a RUclips comment that totally changed how I mix shows. Michael you're incredible
I use a pair of high power column arrays with a large sub in the center most of the time (I have 7 subs, 10 speakers available to shape the sound)
Great example and illustrations!
Q- I am buying 2-10” (400 watts) powered speakers for a room that’s 60x80, rectangular.
Buddhist monk will only do lecture and chant front of stage that’s 2’ high. Members are about 6’ away from front.
As alternative to front placements-- can I place speakers on side walls-7’ mounted?
Hi Michael, Thank you for sharing all your knowledge in these videos. All of them are really very helpful for us to learn about audio tuning. One more help, i could not download the audio math spreadsheet. Can you help with that..Thanks!!
You're very welcome! Try this link - docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1d0-8tm-QoZ9mOeXTH_JI1gcmox7zuwUsZN6_8v2N8ko/edit#gid=0
Thank you!
I wonder, even though its not optimal, how should I think when it comes to using walls to make sounds bounce and spread even more?
Great info Michael and thank you! I have 4 of the JBL PRX 818 and 815s and I recently added the SRX Dual 18 sub for the center. I wish I could figure out a good config for when I use all of this outside any suggestions would be appreciated.
Hey, Kevin! I'm not sure if you've seen the video that published today, but it covers 7 different setups and their underlying fundamentals. Watch that and let me know if you have any further questions.
ruclips.net/video/Q4ny703u-ks/видео.html
Love the prayer ref! 🎉
Hi Curtis. Could you make a video about what could be problematic when speakers are too close to the side walls in a narrow concert hall. Especially wide angle line array speakers. Because people usually wish to use whole area between left and right walls to construct the stage if the room is narrow. To avoid masking the stage, their best option is usually placing speakers up and as close to side walls as possible.
Thank you. Can you do a video with bluetooth speakers and theit placement.
Thank you for sharing, always learning something new, very helpful tips
You’re very welcome!
What do you think using a placement for small venues where your audience is wider than deeper and you have only 2 speakers? I did a "crossed eye" type and saved the centered audience and somehow it got a decent signal to the sides. By decent I mean IT WAS able to keep audience attention/presence. That was wild! THANKS FOR YOUR VIDEOS!!!
Hey, Cesar. I would probably cheat my speakers in a little bit closer to the stage and angle them out towards the sides. Super wide rooms are pretty tough!
@@MichaelCurtisAudio That's right. That way I avoid comb filtering. It was DJ setup
Very interesting! Obvious question though is *why* does the side sub placement give the alleys/valleys??
This is a great video. I wish someone like you would do a video about how to get the most out of the simple portable PAs that are incredibly common out here in fly-over country. I suppose there's no way to get the great sound that you can get from a real system, but I'm sure most of us amateurs could do a better job and give our audiences a better experience if we had a little guidance from a good technician. In my experience in bars and small venues I see, (and hear), a lot more portable units with around 1000 watts 4 to 10 channels and basic controls than I do big boards with sophisticated equalizers, sub-woofers, and monitors.
I'm glad this was helpful to you, Joshua. Just to be clear, are you talking about getting good results in a bar/club setting with a simple 8ch analog mixer and a couple of speakers on sticks?
@@MichaelCurtisAudio Yeah.... That's pretty much what I'm talking about.
In my experience as a very amateur musician, that sort of system is extremely common and they're usually set up by the performer. It's also extremely common for the sound to be pretty terrible. I rather expect you to tell me that there isn't much that can be done to make such a system perform well, but I'm hoping I'm wrong and there might be techniques/skills that can be used to at least make such a system sound less bad. If anyone is addressing this on the internet I haven't found it.
I wonder about things like running instruments through the board? (again, in my experience, a lot of musicians set up and only use the PA for vocals). Is it a good idea to use some kind of sub with a crossover in small setting? Even if you don't need more volume, particularly bass? If all you have to work with are the simple EQ controls that are usually on a portable PA how do you get the best sound? Using monitors when you can't create a separate monitor mix? I'm sure there are many other aspects that I know nothing about. But, if someone - you perhaps - knows how to get the most out of a simple set up, it would be a great benefit to us who are trying to make good music in small venues and even more of a benefit to our audiences. There's a lot of us out here.
@@joshuacunningham1015 Very helpful. Will definitely keep this all in mind for future videos!
AHA MOMENT: Mid-Hi on the sides, SUBS centered with CENTER FILL. Time to go shopping!
There you are!
Michael do you have a video on setting up delay fills for outdoor venues? I've been prepping for some shows this summer and am all set with my matrices configured (not unlike a cry room send). I'm concerned about placement though so having a video or comment or some resources on that would help greatly!
I don't currently have one out in the wild, but I've got an outline made for a future video. I'll see if I can bump it on my content timeline and get it out there!
@@MichaelCurtisAudio thanks so much Michael! I really appreciate it :) have a great day, I can't wait to see that when it comes out!
Hey new viewer here, love the content so far. Really appreciate the simple explanations and visuals. We're currently looking into a church remodel and I've been asked to think about speakers bring the "sound guy". I have a decent base of knowledge from home theater background but this is different for sure. Currently running 2 old flyers which will be getting retired. Awful dispersion and frequency response. We have two QSC K10s plus matching 1kw sub. I was thinking about adding two more k10.2s. But I'm not sure how to lay out 4 speakers. Room is rectangle so I was thinking each corner but I know our ears appreciate sound from the front vs coming from behind. How would you tackle a 4 speaker layout in the same scenario as the video above? Lots of height to fly in the front of house, in the back it tapers to 12ft.
Hills and valley effect. Didnt know about that thanks
You're welcome!
Great stuff. Would have liked to see some mention of comb filtering via overlapping speakers - or is that never really a concern? Oh, also, when you're doing subdivide and conquer, are you running in mono?
Thank you so much!
In this type of setup comb filtering is inevitable since I'm unable to steer lows and low mids with such a small box. It's not until I am able to increase line length with a line array that I am able to "steer" low mids. So, yes, there is comb filtering in the low mids, but I would rather have even high frequency coverage by positioning my mains to subdivide and conquer.
Yes, I run the rig in mono if there's no overlap between the mains.
Hi from India,
Really informative video for a layman, who is volunteering for a non profit and money wise poor organisation. So Namskaram to you for the knowledge.
Honda Civic is an expensive car in India that few can afford. So I wonder what are the speakers available at the usual speaker rentals in India. If anyone knows please do tell.
How about placing multiple speakers at the sides . Say 4 speakers from left and four at the right facing each other ( with spacing to take care of the 80 degree range)?
That’s literary my set up 0:14 this better be simple to understand 😅
The subwoofer design and also I always based purchasing speakers based on wattage and not on nominal coverage pattern or application
A big factor in sub placement for me is whether people will be able to put their drinks down on them or not. Especially when alcohol is involved. If yes, I know I'm going to be spending half the show worrying about and trying to avoid having drinks spill on powered subs.
thank you so much for teaching a clear sounds setup 😍😍😍😍😍😁😀
Great infos here! Do you have a quick tip for a non-centered stage in an asymmetrical room? I suppose it gets really complicated there, but maybe there are some quick and dirty rules-of-thumb one can navigate along
The same principles still apply, but yes an awkwardly placed stage definitely throws a kink in things. At the end of day, when working with point sources, you're prioritizing having the most amount of folks getting HF coverage. So, no matter where you put your speakers, make sure that's happening.
Aha moment was seeing MAPP used - and explained well - with a small speakers on sticks and single sub scenario.
Nice!
Awesome video Michael …thank you for the tips
You're very welcome!
great presentation, very technical.
thank you so much, this is really informative. Regarding that front fill speaker, I wonder if there will be comb filtering ?
You got it! Yes, there will inevitably be SOME comb filtering, but by intentionally placing and aiming the front fill to only cover where the mains are not, then time aligning the front fill to where it and the mains are equal and level, you'll only be hearing comb filtering at the seams of those zones.
Any thoughts on how I can make my centered cardioid subwoofers visually appealing for weddings? I SO want to setup this way, but split subs is logistically so convenient, LOL! I've got two KS118's and two K10.2's. The casters are a problem when they're aimed in opposite directions because they stick out pretty far. I've thought about a piece of plywood to go on top that goes just past the casters on both sides and then covering that with a cloth, then the cloth will drape evenly. There's got to be some really creative, clever, and beautiful solution. Maybe I could invite bridesmaids to dance on top of them, right in front of my booth? Would a TV be rattled to pieces if it were on top of the subs?
I think you're on to something with the TV and table idea. You could get some acoustic isolation pads that are used for studio speakers and place the TV stand on top of those?
Thanks for the video and great explanation. I would be interested in learning about the Mapp3d software and how to use it correctly.
You're very welcome! Yes, I'll be working on a MAPP 3D video.
Great video, and it's reassuring that my methods aren't completely mad. I use the 2.4M Gravity stands (I have the sub poles too) and on top I place a tilt adaptor so I can toe my speakers down a little if I need to. With a pair of ELX-200-12 passive tops and a pair of the ELX-200-18S subs, I'm getting great results by getting the tops up high and putting small angles on them. They're great speakers for the price too; planning to get another system this summer...if the supply doesn't run out. :D
Getting your speakers high makes all the difference! Glad you're getting good results.
what kind of adapters did you use? and was it a 5 degree or a 15 degree?
@@ayoanil Gravity make adjustable tilt adaptors. I vary the tilt and toe depending on the height/coverage needed. If I can find it, I'll get you the gravity part number...
Wondering what your opinion would be of the Alto Professional speakers available. I have a pair of the 10" tops with a pair of 15" subs. So far, I've been very happy with them, and they do get loud enough for the venues I do. But no one really talks about them.
What do you recomend for small outdoor Techno/Rave partys, for around 3-500 peoples ?
To be honest i looking for 2 tops and 2 subs. Right now i looking at Mackie DRM active 15" speakers and Mackie DRM active 18" subs.
Well I haven't had an aha moment as for some reason ambience and just pretty much every single thing that you explained always came as common sense to me I guess not everybody is exactly like me LOL but there are other people out there that are like me that could just figure it out by the auditory perception where they could just walk around and hear phase cancellation and whatnot.
Now I don't have a super advanced system as you have I have a four stack with each stack has one 18-in subwoofer one 12-in mid base one 12-in mid range and one 10-in tweeter {I know all of those aren't quite exactly the right way to address those speakers}
The signals are being split from two behringer super x pro 4-way crossovers so that way I have stereo left and right powered by 4 amps so that way each stereo amp will power each channel independently.
My question is my biggest amp (4500 w) seems like the bass is never loud enough and when I turn it up it clips my amp and protect will come on also (but not everytime) even though they are maximum 2,000 w and RMS is 800 or something close to that maybe a little bit more so of course you know 4,500 watts is not actually 4,500 Watts in all reality it might be 2,000 w maximum so I know the amps aren't overpowering the subs and the subs aren't too powerful for the amp to push so usually this is for outdoor events not indoor so what do I do? Also I stacked the speakers on top of each other and when I stack them everything else seems to sound just fine.
It depends on the nominal impedance of your subwoofers, but sounds like to me you need a more powerful amp for your subs.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio well they are pro audio subs so 8 ohms I think they are. just not too sure what you mean by nominal impedance. Also they are sitting side by side away from each other usually no less than 10 ft apart on each corner of the stage or platform area on the ground but I have to use them to put the other speaker on top it's you know got the poles if that makes sense LOL. now I really haven't tried them inside any place I've mostly just done it outside except for when I bring them to my friend's basement they sound really really good but of course it's an enclosed space the base is Basie the highs are high and everything in between it all sounds wonderful
Super great video, thanks for sharing!
that was the science of sound...nice info!
Thank you so much!
This is great! Thank you so much!
You're very welcome!
Really interesting, thanks! @7:55 why does the scale start at 0 and go into negative values? Does this represent decibel dropoff?
These videos are making me want to learn more and do more! I do however have a question, what about center clusters? I have a local church that is struggling to get a good mix through a center cluster that was permanently installed several years ago. They are willing to replace the speakers or just whatever it takes to get a good sound. Should i offer leaving a center cluster or sell them on moving to a LR setup? I will be going soon to measure the room and see what’s actually going on!
Hey, Ben. I've spec'd center clusters on several projects if they get the coverage of the space most uniform. A great mix will still translate on a center mono setup. If LR can help cover the audience better in a specific use case, then great.
Great job teaching about coverage. Thank you.
You got it!
Great video and thanks for sharing info
Question for u: what if bride and groom are on that center stage u mentioned and u have been given a stage in one corner on right
How to cover all areas and set up speakers? Pl advise
Same concepts apply - subdivide the room into as many zones as speakers you have, then point your speakers down the middle of the middle of those zones.
Hey, thanks for all the knowledge you share, could you advise for someone that only has one sub and can't really place it on the centre? Thank you.
You're welcome!
I'd try and place it to where it would be as "even" coverage for the most amount of people. Totally get that there's limitations.
Awesome video! Thank you!
You got it.
Hi Michael! Thank you for sharing your knowledge! I'm just wonder what your thoughts are on the K.2 series vs the original K series. I've heard people say that the K.2 series are unreliable, unlike the original K series.
I've personally never had a K12 or a K12.2 go out on me. But I've heard the same rumors you have.
Thanks for these videos!!
God bless you Big-time!
🤟😺🤟
🙏🙏💜
This is some really good stuff! Thanks for sharing.
You're very welcome! Glad it was helpful.
what about my setup, a guitar amp and a single PA thing with subwoofer and speaker?
K12.2 horns should not be coupled next to the ceiling. Can you describe the critical problems this can create and two of these cabinets side by side can you describe the problems. I've been trying to help out a club but there's and thing called bar owners syndrome. Mumpsimus.
I'm so glad I've encountered you Michael and your learning videos. Maybe soon I'll take a gamble and purchase smaart v9 but learning how to use it is my old mind capable? 😢 I need to learn this.
In short, the ceiling reflections cause late arrivals and therefore comb filtering. And when two speakers that aren't meant to be arrayed together have high overlap in the HF it creates comb filtering as well due to the difference in arrival times.
What really missing from this video is how speaker placement in relation to the walls affect the sound in the room.
Also, placing the two subwoofers only 100 inches apart will eliminate this "power alleys" issue and make both speakers reinforce each other. Unfortunately "looking nice" is often more important than "sounding nice".
Love the video dude. Got a sub. I'm about to play a show with a stage that is only about 12 inches above the floor. Do you think it would be ok to place subs on stage as it is still relatively low to floor. I ask because my subs are usually connected via a threaded pole to my loud-speakers above. Cheers!
Thank you so much! Sure, placing subs on stage wouldn't be a problem.
Hi Michael, what a fantastic video, thank you! What sort of speaker would you recommend for front fill in a scenario like the example in this vid? Would you typically just use another K12 (or similar)? Also, as well as height, what sort of vertical angle should you be aiming for? Thank you again!
Thanks, Cameron! Another K12 or similar speaker would work great.
And as far as vertical aiming, I usually end up aiming my point source speakers at the back row.
What are the general recommendations for low ceiling applications? My church ceiling is 9ft high.
I would really appreciate your thoughts on one of the column arrays like the EV30M (120 degrees of horizontal) or the Bose L1 Pro 8 (180 degrees horizontal) vs a 2 speaker system like the Yamaha 400BT vs the Everse 8 that is 100 x 100 degrees dispersion. I'm a singer/songwriter and do solo acoustic performances.
Great videos! Learning so much, thank you. I have 4 yamaha powered subs that crossover at 100hz. Should I butt them all up together in the center or maybe space them apart a bit? If so, how to decide on the distance. And would I lose the coupling effect?
Great question. Take a look at this video of mine and let me know if you have any followup questions - ruclips.net/video/Q4ny703u-ks/видео.html
Independent of how u feel about the column array speakers, the fact that the columns MUST be clipped into the subs, and then they are set wide L/R, they kind of encourage the power alley’s and valleys… it’s almost as if the makers need to offer column “holders” so the subs can be placed both in the middle of the stage…
We’ve been using the K12s with subs forever. We just switched to using a couple of Bose L1 model 2. Life changing for the better! No need for monitors and easily mixed from the stage.
Do you have a video using any Bose systems?
Glad to hear your Bose rig has served you well. I don't have any videos on Bose systems, but the biggest different is that most Bose rigs will have much wider coverage (up to 160° on some of their rigs). That's probably why you're hearing a lot of the PA on stage.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio thanks for getting back to me, your videos have a lot of great info! We play all over the northwest and we just started using the Bose with subs for clubs. We set them up behind us. We’re a rocking blues band ala SRV, Trower, ZZ. We’re very happy having an easier set up but for our outdoor gigs we use our QSC system and your videos will come in handy. Thanks!
@@mez5590 Very cool! Happy to help.
Great tutorial info indeed that has enlightened some of the grey areas.
Just a question here...How would I have to go with FOH speakers that are atop sticks that use subs as floor-based stands? Would I have to separate the subs and speakers and rearrange their individual placements?
Thank you! If I'm understanding you correctly, yes you would have to separate them.
Can you demonstrate splaying let’s say, a pair of K8’s together for Mains and / or front fills. Using the 9 1/2 trim height for the mains on speaker stands. My initial concerns are in the comb flltering issues vs coverage advantages (most venues using dual projection screens do not allow for center of the center speaker placement)
Some amount of overlap, and therefore comb filtering, is inevitable. Regardless of speaker stand placement I'd still aim for the middle of the middle.
Great vid, good info!
Thanks a whole lot this is what I being looking for the FHR have answer my prayers
Happy to help : )
Will this work with column turbo sound ip3000 ev50 speakers that are ground based
@@gemk007 Yup! I looked at their specs and they go "up to" 120° horizontal coverage. So, they're a pretty wide speaker, but will definitely do the job.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio let’s say I’m setting up more than two of them in a live band setting I do live sound how. Far apart should they be to stop cone filtering a total of 4 , 2per side
One question. If the speakers in the hall are aimed exactly at the back wall, and not in the center of the hall, then where should the sound engineer be located?
And the second question. If the sound engineer is in the middle of the room near the back wall, where should the speakers be directed?
We have two speakers and two subwoofers. And the third question. how to install subwoofers? Should I put them together next to each other or move them apart?
Thank you. Greetings from Lithuania!
Would love your feedback on the RCF evox 12 , it has a 90 x 30 degree spread , I also own the KW 12 speakers , I get asked if my Speakers are loud enough for a 300 plus event , would love your feedback on this , I’ve combined both setups together in the past with a KW 118 sub, I just want to make sure I’m using and placing my equipment in the proper place , these videos are awesome btw, thank you 🙏
I've never used the RCF evox 12's, so I can't help you there. A nice tight 30° vertical beam seems nice, though!
300 plus gives me some idea of the event, but it's ultimately up to the audience size. Are they crammed into a club? Or spread out in lawn chairs outdoors? I'm glad you like the videos!