Great video. If you were to use 8 subs in an indoor event that had stairs in middle of large stage, where would you recommend putting subs and in what formation? Could they go on the stage on the front in one line?
Hey MrMotion, I don't know what the best solution is, but some things to consider: Can you get a center position behind the stage? I do this a lot on corporate gigs. Maybe not a great idea for concert sound. Otherwise, to the sides of the stairs is probably my preference to reduce power alley.
QUESTION: re: flying subs - is OK to have say, a single sub flying at the back of the stage and then have to the 2 main cabs, also flying, in front of the stage (off to the sides)?
@Nathan Lively, at 43:08, one of my friends saw this photo and I assumed it had to be intended to be a directional array due to the large gap in the middle. When I model this in mapp3D, that gap creates a huge problem between 70hz and 100hz. There are some photos out there that show response from the top down with basically equivalent response at 40hz and 80hz, but there is no way I can configure this thing in mapp3D to work above 70hz.
Great video! Answered a few of my questions and brought up a few more. With a centre ground stack of subs and flown stereo mains how do you set the delay for the subs? The distance from each main will change depending on where you are standing on the dancefloor, do you just set it for one position (centre of dancefloor or FOH) or is there some kind of formula to get it more even over the whole dancefloor?
Hi Minima! This video is a bit old: ruclips.net/video/LT8OZK0Nr4s/видео.html This guide is newer: www.sounddesignlive.com/the-complete-guide-to-measurement-microphone-placement-for-subwoofer-alignment/
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the problem with flying subs is 1.) The inertia of the moving cone will react against a floating cabinet, which can "equal and opposite reaction"- creating cancelation and distortion; rather than reacting against a box rigidly coupled to the ground. And 2.) placing a subwoofer against the floor, a floor and a wall, or best of all- in a corner (1/4 pi arrangement, is it is called?), is regarded as desirable for the adjacent surfaces serve to focus and couple the LF sound waves from the sub
He Mike, to your first point, I have no idea, unfortunately. I've never heard about this. To your second point, please see this paper from LA: ruclips.net/video/OG2dzxw7ok8/видео.html
Is it better to have 2 subs stacked, off to one side of the stage, OR to have the same 2 subs, side by side in the middle of the stage (or slightly ahead of the stage)?
Hello!!! Is there analysis on systems with central arrangements for live sound, especially in churches? Do you have videos with analysis with pros and cons of this application? Thanks!!
wondering what do I use to delay the speakers for end fire etc, do I daisy chain driverack PAs together or is the something else. preferably affordable option?
Nathan, do you get the 6db added level across the subs freq range if you stack them 3 high? So 6db for having 2 onto each other, and another 6db for adding a 3rd? All similar brand /model
Hey Sammy, you can use this formula to estimate total summation. dB = 20 * log10(initial quantity / final quantity) So if you drop that into Google: 20 * log10(3 / 1) = 9.54dB
Hey Dan, I can, but honestly, I haven't changed anything. I opened up v9, starting using the same settings I had in v8, and haven't changed anything. Is there some particular setting you are curious about?
subwoofer array designer and sub length. Would have been good to explain that you can turn that knife pick into a .. larger knife(?lol) by using delay on the sub array.
Thanks Aaron! Yes, I did mention that if lines are used that I recommend creating an arc, but I think it's a super interesting topic and it would have been fun to go deeper into please. You might be interested in Sub School. We'll have more time to cover that stuff. www.sounddesignlive.com/sub-school/
@@nathanlively as I was reading your reply I thought to myself “actually, that’s a subject all by itself” hah I did enjoy this tho. It was a good refresher and renewed my interest in other forms of subs arrays. 🙂
U Said, Phase does not change over Distance. If u delay a segnal it changes the phase. So delay means we make a vertual distance , right? Then the Phace changes. Furthermore If u go away from the PA - System, the proportion of the distance to subs and Tops change, this cause also a phase change , isnt it?
Hey livemixpriyan. How might you test this? Try measuring a single speaker at 1m, 10m, 100m. Or try the same test in modeling software. Let me know what you find out.
we have only 2 single 18 subs in the church. should i place this in the center and stack on top of each other or should i place each other in a minimal distance to avoid power alley in order to have a maximum coverage?
Power alley is most noticeable at outdoor events where there are no wall reflections to 'fill in' the holes in bass coverage. Indoors, the bass will bounce around and you'll witness less of a power alley problem regardless of your subwoofer configuration.
Hey Oscar, unless you have audience 360º around the stage then I would recommend a horizontal line on the ground to at least create a small amount of forward summation and sideways cancellation.
Yes, if those are the numbers from the slide. This is a template that should work in a lot of situations, but of course, it's better to optimize it for your conditions. Maybe you don't need any filters, for example.
We are too thin-skinned these days. Go ahead and be a jerk if you can tell me the absolute best equipment, positioning, and set-up. Dude, we can take it.
What's your favorite take away from the video?
You had me from the start. I am a novice with a good ear. Captivating. Straight shooter. No BS. I will watch again. Too much info for one go around.
Great training, Nathan : )
Great video! Thanks!
You're welcome!
I use a minidsp flex to align my speakers ( Fir for top and Crossover linearization and Others) and i learn a lot with tour great Videos
very nice!
great info...👍👏👏👏 yeah Dave rad is very creative...
Oh Yeah I love the lambda laps QX serie and hd18 subs sounds amazing 😍 best Pa ever.... Massive punch 👊 crazy low end 😂
Great video. If you were to use 8 subs in an indoor event that had stairs in middle of large stage, where would you recommend putting subs and in what formation? Could they go on the stage on the front in one line?
Hey MrMotion, I don't know what the best solution is, but some things to consider: Can you get a center position behind the stage? I do this a lot on corporate gigs. Maybe not a great idea for concert sound.
Otherwise, to the sides of the stairs is probably my preference to reduce power alley.
QUESTION: where do we find the sub aligner tool that you were talking about in the very beginning of this video?
QUESTION: re: flying subs - is OK to have say, a single sub flying at the back of the stage and then have to the 2 main cabs, also flying, in front of the stage (off to the sides)?
@Nathan Lively, at 43:08, one of my friends saw this photo and I assumed it had to be intended to be a directional array due to the large gap in the middle. When I model this in mapp3D, that gap creates a huge problem between 70hz and 100hz. There are some photos out there that show response from the top down with basically equivalent response at 40hz and 80hz, but there is no way I can configure this thing in mapp3D to work above 70hz.
I figured it out. The ground reflection in my setup is interfering because I simulated only 1 slice of the stack.
Great video! Answered a few of my questions and brought up a few more.
With a centre ground stack of subs and flown stereo mains how do you set the delay for the subs? The distance from each main will change depending on where you are standing on the dancefloor, do you just set it for one position (centre of dancefloor or FOH) or is there some kind of formula to get it more even over the whole dancefloor?
Hi Minima!
This video is a bit old: ruclips.net/video/LT8OZK0Nr4s/видео.html
This guide is newer: www.sounddesignlive.com/the-complete-guide-to-measurement-microphone-placement-for-subwoofer-alignment/
@@nathanlively Excellent thank you!
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the problem with flying subs is 1.) The inertia of the moving cone will react against a floating cabinet, which can "equal and opposite reaction"- creating cancelation and distortion; rather than reacting against a box rigidly coupled to the ground.
And 2.) placing a subwoofer against the floor, a floor and a wall, or best of all- in a corner (1/4 pi arrangement, is it is called?), is regarded as desirable for the adjacent surfaces serve to focus and couple the LF sound waves from the sub
He Mike, to your first point, I have no idea, unfortunately. I've never heard about this. To your second point, please see this paper from LA: ruclips.net/video/OG2dzxw7ok8/видео.html
What's the best placement of Sub's? Is it LR, or in a line spaced between each other,to get even coverage. Especially ground stacked
Is it better to have 2 subs stacked, off to one side of the stage, OR to have the same 2 subs, side by side in the middle of the stage (or slightly ahead of the stage)?
Hello!!! Is there analysis on systems with central arrangements for live sound, especially in churches? Do you have videos with analysis with pros and cons of this application? Thanks!!
Hey PIO, I don't think I have anything like that. I can that I'm generally a fan of point source arrays for an appropriate application.
wondering what do I use to delay the speakers for end fire etc, do I daisy chain driverack PAs together or is the something else. preferably affordable option?
Hey Dean, nothing special. Just a drive line for each additional sub, minimum.
Nathan, do you get the 6db added level across the subs freq range if you stack them 3 high?
So 6db for having 2 onto each other, and another 6db for adding a 3rd? All similar brand /model
Hey Sammy, you can use this formula to estimate total summation.
dB = 20 * log10(initial quantity / final quantity)
So if you drop that into Google:
20 * log10(3 / 1) = 9.54dB
@nathanlively I have an outdoor show with a 2 ft tall solid concrete stage. Subs center in front 12" from stage, or split LR on stage with tops?
Hi Gary! I always try to get a center position, unless there's an opportunity to fly the subs.
Can u make best setting or new features of smaart v9 ? Thanks
Hey Dan, I can, but honestly, I haven't changed anything. I opened up v9, starting using the same settings I had in v8, and haven't changed anything. Is there some particular setting you are curious about?
subwoofer array designer and sub length. Would have been good to explain that you can turn that knife pick into a .. larger knife(?lol) by using delay on the sub array.
Thanks Aaron! Yes, I did mention that if lines are used that I recommend creating an arc, but I think it's a super interesting topic and it would have been fun to go deeper into please. You might be interested in Sub School. We'll have more time to cover that stuff. www.sounddesignlive.com/sub-school/
@@nathanlively as I was reading your reply I thought to myself “actually, that’s a subject all by itself” hah I did enjoy this tho. It was a good refresher and renewed my interest in other forms of subs arrays. 🙂
U Said, Phase does not change over Distance. If u delay a segnal it changes the phase. So delay means we make a vertual distance , right? Then the Phace changes. Furthermore If u go away from the PA - System, the proportion of the distance to subs and Tops change, this cause also a phase change , isnt it?
Hey livemixpriyan. How might you test this? Try measuring a single speaker at 1m, 10m, 100m. Or try the same test in modeling software. Let me know what you find out.
we have only 2 single 18 subs in the church. should i place this in the center and stack on top of each other or should i place each other in a minimal distance to avoid power alley in order to have a maximum coverage?
Power alley is most noticeable at outdoor events where there are no wall reflections to 'fill in' the holes in bass coverage. Indoors, the bass will bounce around and you'll witness less of a power alley problem regardless of your subwoofer configuration.
@@videyo098 thanks for the ensight...
Hey Oscar, unless you have audience 360º around the stage then I would recommend a horizontal line on the ground to at least create a small amount of forward summation and sideways cancellation.
@@nathanlively thank you sir, can't wait to apply this on sunday. 😃
Hi Nathan, what did u mean by (@48,20) dont forget filter setings? can u plz explain that? Thanks
See "Recommended filter" on screen
@@nathanlively You mean, set the LPF @109Hz bei Gradient and 110Hz bei Endfire?
Yes, if those are the numbers from the slide. This is a template that should work in a lot of situations, but of course, it's better to optimize it for your conditions. Maybe you don't need any filters, for example.
Just before goin to sleep 🥱🎉😁
😴
@@nathanlively as usual, great video Nathan. Thank you!
Why do you leave space between subs, even when they're put to one side of the stage to avoid decoupling?
Hey Mike. For efficiency. Please see: www.merlijnvanveen.nl/en/study-hall/141-mind-the-gap
Watch Dave Ratt 3 part series on subs..
Thanks Bill. Yes! Great tip. What's one of your takeaways from that video?
L & R not in the center
Hey Bill, is there are question here? Not sure if I understand.
We are too thin-skinned these days. Go ahead and be a jerk if you can tell me the absolute best equipment, positioning, and set-up. Dude, we can take it.
Blunt, honesty. You got it. :)
🎉