As a server owner this could be avoided by simply sending the client a large amount of random fake tile entities for the pi chart to detect at all times, essentially drowning out any real detections in the noise. I know something similar is used to prevent x-ray on some servers.
This is actually the main concept behind the "Decoy post" technique I just came up with. Place player-produced tile entities one chunk apart in a large area to the point where it becomes a hassle to figure out just where a base is.
For those who are curious: Barrels are block entities. However, they're only block entities on the server because, unlike chests, they have no special block entity rendering. This means the client never knows about their presence besides as a simple block, making them unfindable with pie-ray.
keep it, but add a plug-in that randomly spawns shulker boxes, enchantment tables, and other such player-placed tile entities underground and removes them when a player gets close just to mess with people
This is why I like just being on friends server where we all build stuff where ever we want without needing to worry about griefing Seems like a headache to deal with otherwise
@@velocity9OOOYT I mean, neither do I have trustworthy friends, but if you want minecraft friends, it's maybe better getting them from Hypixel from team games, but it's up to you, so feel free to get them from an anarchy server if you feel so. It was only a tip from me.
I actually was playing on your server a year ago, and my first base was raided and destroyed because of the chests I had. I moved to a separate location, and my storage room was obliterated. I had no idea until a mod told me that pie ray was the likely culprit for my bases being found. So I implemented the very strategies you talked about in this video when dealing with what blocks to place and how to store enchantment tables.
You could definitely patch out use of pieray by making tile entities not within a certain radius of the player simply be replaced with air on the client side, with the real block appearing once they get close enough. For entities, you could make them non-existant until the player gets closer, which then they will appear. Another way would be making sure the player has to be able to directly see said entity/tile entity before the server shows it to them. These ideas could be costly on server performance though.
This would only slightly nerf it, lol. And checking if a player can see a block would require raytracing for every player and chest, which is the exact function that causes TNT being laggy, to say the least.
I can see how Minecraft speedrunning community might be the unintended culprit for popularizing pie-raying, as it exposed this method to the broader public last year. Every tool can become a double-edged sword. A blessing for speedrunners, a curse for those SMPs.
MC "speedrunning" killed a lot of good things in the wider game. I say "speedrunning" as they now use calculators to do things from outside the game. I know the "community" accepted it, but the main people wanting to accept it were people with a large following, thus allowing for the main runners at the time get better times, and ruining the actual skill for dimension travel.
@@nitroglycerin_3455 From what I can tell, It's just a calculator, it doesn't stop from speedrunners having a poster with bunch of pre-made calculation ready to go. What next? we need eye tracking software so we can stop that too?
Agreed, there are a ton of legitimate reasons to use it. Plus, waiting forever for Mojang to implement anything is too slow anyway, a better solution imo would be for the server to implement something to fix it, which would also reduce the advantage of hacked clients as well.
Pieray is very similar to how entity lists or block search functionalities work in hacked clients, just a bit harder to use. The problem is that the server sends the client the entire chunk, whether or not you can see a feature in the chunk or not. I'd rather implement an anti-pi ray more like how anti-xray currently works on servers.
Yeah lots of drama over hot air. Pieray can't do anything that can't alread be done by good old X-Ray mods, Hacked clients or heck, even a simple X-Ray texture packs. The brainwormed "solutions" for pieray everyone has already exist for Xray too and the reason most server owners don't use them is because they *severely* cripple server and client performance (To a degree they can be the #1 source of lag on an otherwise perfectly fine set up server)
Technically, modifying the chunk packet before it is sent to the player works, although at the cost of server performance (which is a small cost for that tbh)
@@Akab Interesting that nobody ever thinks of THAT solution. See that would actually be a good solution instead of creating a bunch of garbage data bloat
Back when I used to love factions, I would use f3 on a very low end laptop. When half my frames dropped, it meant a mega base was nearby. There was also an entity counter that was extremely helpful for faction servers with custom spawners.
Hey, I am the guy who discovered Pie Ray. The story how I found it is a bit hillarious. I was reading the minecraft wiki about the debug screen like three times to find something cool that could be used as an advantage. The first two attempts were a failure because I was concerned there is nothing new about the F3. After each time I read the wikipedia I gave up and I had a break from reading it for a few months. When I read the wikipedia for the third time thinking there is nothing new to be found, I scrolled down to the pie chart information. When I noticed the wikipedia says that it is possible to navigate through it using 0-9 numbers I instantly got a brainwave. I hopped on minecraft and found the path that showed the blockentities. After I realised how it works, I instantly knew that it can be used in speedrunning to find nether fortresses, villages and that it can be used in base hunting. I shared the discovery with the speedrun community and they loved it. Speedrunners started to learn it and almost everyone use it now. They started to experiment with it. One of the speedrunners - TheTalkingMime found a path in Pie Ray that can be used to find buried treasure without the map. The strategy is called mapless. This is definitely the best use of Pie Ray in modern speedrunning as the buried treasure can be found fast and it contains food, iron and sometimes tnt for the blocks. I was so surprised mapless was a thing, I would probably never discover it on my own. I am really proud that discovering the Pie Ray, helped the speedrunners to beat the game faster and gave them opportunity to experiment with it further to find more. It is so cool to see every speedrunner in the world using your strategy. Thanks for making this video, since I had no idea if it is widely used in base hunting and people should be aware that something like this exists, so they can hide their bases better.
Here's a good way (I think) to render it useless: Always have such blocks present, for example the worldgen could be changed so there are randomly ender chests and other blocks hidden inside the bedrock at the bottom of the world, so weather you're detecting a base or just a random hidden block is impossible to tell.
dang and I thought the only people who used this were like speedrunners when searching for buried treasure (at least from my experience) though I guess that's one thing bedrock servers have over java servers (since the debug screen isn't usable on Bedrock unless you have some developer version)
Moral: Be ready for losses if you play on anarchy servers or do not play on them at all. Even if Mojang ever decide to remove pieray from the game, hacks are always here.
Whether or not certain debug options are available to players should absolutely be something that can be configured in a server's settings. Just add some lines in there like "allow-all-debug", "allow-coordinates", "allow-reload", etc. With maybe admins exempted from these restrictions.
Also, mods exist. Just the ability to see the area around you too down has major implications, and the server has no way of checking. I always have Xaero's minimap installed. Very helpful when cave diving
I think the biggest reason why Minecraft might get out competed (either by Hytale or some other game in the same genre) is that it is so, so poorly optimized for servers, which is one of its main attractions. Its like every handy little feature or weird quirk somehow has the ability to cause chaos in a multiplayer environment, and many multiplayer features that would be very useful just... don't exist. I can see why the Hypixel team got frustrated enough to go ahead and just decide to make their own game from scratch.
@@fosminclorin Well, I what makes me think that is how many people are prepared to jump ship. Micro$oft has slowly been turning up the heat with strongly disliked changes, and for now people are disgruntled yet tolerate them with various workarounds because there isn't much in the way of competition. Plus, the RUclips scene will quite dramatically shift to the shiny new game as people try to get in on the hype. It really is the perfect storm, and the incredibly unoptimized Minecraft just doesn't have a whole lot to compete with.
@@fosminclorin They'll take their time, and the patient members of the community will be rewarded. I'm glad that they're making sure the game is polished from the start, instead of hastily releasing a mediocre game and riding the hype. The patient members of the community will be greatly rewarded, and the strong foundations will be a godsend for modding, servers, and updates. A sloppy start is one of the things plaguing Minecraft (granted, it is understandable considering how organically Minecraft grew and how unique it was).
@@StuffandThings_ yeah, Minecraft was unique, Hytale is not. It just feels like a fan game or a copy cat. People are overhyping the game before being released. If Minecraft is dying, then people won't be as interested to play another block game to the point of making it more popular than the original. Everyone knows about Minecraft, not everyone knows about Hytale and I don't think it will have the same hype as Minecraft once did. Especially if it's too complex.
I feel like a probable solution for this if Mojang were to care enough to do something would be to give server owners the ability to block use of it. It's useful for bugfixing, especially in singleplayer and/or modded, so I don't think it should be outright deleted, but having a way to prevent its use on servers would be good.
It's not possible... It's handle client-side. Well, it's technicaly possible to add an option to not show it, but it would be so easy to activate it anyway by changing the value of the option in the client files. Tbh, I think you can cheat so easily on Minecraft because it was made as a PvE exploration game, where cheat do not matter, but most people play it as a PvP combat game...
There are dozens of different ways to discover bases through the F3 menu if you know where to look. At that point, servers would have to find a way to disable F3 entirely. No, this is a stupid thing to complain about.
There is a setting in the server that restricts the debug menu. With this setting on, I believe players can’t see their coordinates, but it also disables the debug pie.
you can easily prevent it, since it looks for those blocks, there is an anti xray plugin that changes the blocks around players to fake ore blocks to throw them off + make it impossible to xray. You can just add all the blocks that pie ray detects in the same way. So basically there are always shulker boxes, echests, enchant tables etc in the chunks that players are loading so their pie ray will always show that those blocks are appearing in the chunks and makes it impossible to use pie ray.
@@sxlect6414 but that’s entirely unnecessary and complicated if you just disable the debug pi all together. If there isn’t a way to disable the debug pi without disabling choords, then it makes sense, and it would be funny wasting people’s time like this. But if you can just disable it, then you don’t need to go through that effort.
The real issue in vanilla-like SMPs is that once bases are found, it is inevitable that they will be griefed. And you can't really stop people from using any of the 5-10 Xray methods that are in vanilla. IMO to actually stop the x ray issue there need to be features in the game that allow you to defend bases even if they are found.
I think a good solution to this is placing a chest and enchantment table in every chunk near your base or even more like 1k-20k block radius, it will confuse the hunter so the hunter won't know where exactly your base is.
Better: lay out a 1k grid; put some jitter into it, then lay out about 200 enchanting tables the jittered grid. He'll have to search that 30k x 30k area for the base. It'll take awhile.
Decoys are the solution. The bigger the network of decoys, the longer it will take to search it. For a big important base with a lot of builders, it should be possible to have the decoys extend thousands of blocks in every direction. But don't put the real base in the exact center... And don't have the real base have a huge concentration of chests, etc. It should show up like it might plausibly be just another decoy. Bonus points for booby-trapping some decoys with TNT...
you could also set a lot of decoy items around your base, also finding the exact position of the base is a lot faster if you use gamerenderer instead of tick, you should use tick to find it and gamerenderer to find the exact position (just look at a mapless burried treassure guide for speedrunning 1.16+)
As soon as you mentioned pieray I knew and serverd that allow raiding i knew what was up. I use it regularly to find all sorts of cool things like spawners to set up my base near them, so I can see why it would be a problem.
The pie chart is quintessential to speedruns and mod makers alike, first for locating nether fortresses/approximating the stronghold portal room from a glance, and in the modded side of minecraft it's one of the most useful debugging tools out there that helps you pinpoint exactly what's causing lag and/or unoptimized rendering. To have mojang remove it would bring us closer to how Bedrock has so few debug/developer features and would strip us of a BIG mechanic out there. If hackless anarchy servers want pie charts nerfed, just obfuscate block entities by sending client-side fake blocks randomly underground at all times to deter people from even opening that thing, but please don't bring this up to Mojang to fix it; it's invaluable
Or just simply expand the world border on your server. You still need to load the chunks for pie ray to work. If world border of OG-Network was raised from the current 55,000 blocks to 200,000+ blocks, pie ray would be less an issue.
There are anti x-ray plugins that send garbled block data in areas out of view of the player... Just add one of those plugins (I've used Orebfuscator in the past) set the blocks to be ender chests, enchanting tables, etc. This effectively stops this, and multiple other exploits, at the expense of some lag...
Orebfuscator is honestly one of the worst solutions to the problems, as it is one of the most lag intensive plugins one could add to the server. For a small server (say, maximum of 10 players) it is fine but for any large server it is unmaintainable without impacting performance. Any and all optimisation one might have done before to the server before, goes out of the window. And this is in an enviroment where server resources, are of high value. Does everyone forget that idle serverload doubled ever since 1.16, and became *much* worse since 1.19?
You can easily prevent it, since it looks for those blocks, there is an anti xray plugin that changes the blocks around players to fake ore blocks to throw them off + make it impossible to xray. You can just add all the blocks that pie ray detects in the same way. So basically there are always shulker boxes, echests, enchant tables etc in the chunks that players are loading so their pie ray will always show that those blocks are appearing in the chunks and makes it impossible to use pie ray.
As a counter-point, I think tools like pie-ray keep base hunting methods on a level playing field, even though it's a bit like a tactical nuke in terms of power. Without it however, players would simply find other methods, which some players might not have access to, or it may go too far and take things into the real world with hacking/social engineering. I don't like that this is a problem, but at the same time I don't think it's anywhere near the worst version of what this problem could be.
I've known about pie raying for over a year now, the best way to go undetected from block entities is to not use the blocks that show up on it (keep in mind, on some versions, jukeboxes also show up on pieray so consider not using those either) you don't have to worry much about the entities section since most pie rayers don't use it, however if they look at the E counter and notice a sudden spike in it they might find your base that way as well, so keep farms with tons of mobs away from your base
@@nanopi I assume the debug info is calculated client side but it would be best if you had to get an enable to use it on servers.... Plenty of clients that would cause issues though
The pie chart is client side. Server send the chunk info, piechart tells you what's in the info. Only way to remove it is by magically not sending info about those blocks, however it would be really inconvenient for the base-owners who wouldn't even see their chests anymore.
Plugins/server mods could do that, although youre right that players would so not see tbeir chests anymore by default... 2 midground solutions would be: A: players can oy see their own chests B: those blockentities wjll only be rendered if the player is close enough
It’s funny how players starting to make barrel vaults to fight against pieray is just like the solution players came up with to mitigate xrayers back when I played factions where players made dropper vaults instead since they aren’t usually detected
I don't really get the fuss over pieray specifically; xray resource packs have been around for ages, and even a simple freecam mod allowing you to look undergound would be undetectable, since nothing changes from the server's point of view (without client-side anticheat (i.e. a mandatory rootkit) that is, but that's a whole separate can of worms). Anti-xray server mods that limit what parts of the world are sent to the client are the way to go. I suspect these could help reduce clientbound traffic as well by making chunk data packets smaller, although server-side cpu load could increase.
This might be a bit of a stretch, but I do know that in a modpack I play in called Vault Hunters, the dimension called "The Vault" actually disables coords on the F3 screen. Maybe it's possible to delete the pie ray through similar means?
In my opinion, servers should have the goal of colonization, conquest, and civilization. Essentially, the point is making players into various civilizations, whose task is to prosper by building every possible farm. (Obviously, currently non renewable items should be made renewable via plug-ins and mods). They're supposed to build blue ice nether highways, they're supposed to exploit the biomes, they're supposed to rebuild ancient structures. Since this is a civilization, they should have all of its pillars (social structure, economy government, etc). Religion is optional and must be enforced if used. The secondary job of the civilizations is to expand their own territory, taking the land that is unclaimed (the keyword is "claim," there won't be any ability to prevent the destruction of land other than the use of walls, traps, people, etc.) and the territory that is claimed. They're supposed to conquer the other civilizations, with the end goal being an actual society whose resources (that means EVERY item) are all easily renewable.
I'm honestly surprised something like this isn't a Creative Mode/OP exclusive thing. I can only assume that Mojang just didn't expect anyone to use this feature for the sake of griefing.
yea, but on the other hand it would only keep the honest people honest, cheaters would still use x-ray mods, xray texture packs and hack clients to do same thing
It's called a Piechart and not Pieray, just the method used to find stuff with it is called Pieray. The Piechart is a useful feature and whoever can't handle it shouldn't play on servers where griefing is allowed. Edit: And you can find underground base way easier by using the composter glitch (no antixray does not help against that, unlike you said in the "Gamebreaking" client desync glitch you found in another video)
You can prevent this. But the Community is just too lazy to do it. Make a Minecraft Version Stripped of this Pie-Ray and only allow players to connect with this version.
Speedrunners also use pie-raying strats to perform help locate features faster, such as buried treasures, piglin bastions, nether fortresses, and end portal rooms.
All you need is to send a single packet every time a player traverses a chunk spawning in a chest somewhere out of site in the chunk. This makes it always appear in the pie chart. Alternatively, just replace tile entities with air until you get within a certain distance from them.
This is why plugins such as orebfuscator are so important, sending fake blocks to the player is one of the MOST EFFICIENT ways to solve this xray/pieray exploit. Ive been involved with MC Mod/Plugin development for a very long time, I always write up a small plugin that sends fake blocks to the player via packets on my servers. I will never play any server that doesn't have an orebfuscator equivalent on it, it shows a lack of experience as a server administrator. "But orebfuscator is laggy on my server!!11!!" - Shush, quit running servers on your local PC, this isn't good for security either. If your server cant handle orebfuscator that's all on you & your host, there's no excuse for not having a plugin like this on your server in 2023. "But orebfuscator is laggy for the client!!!1!1!" - Sorry, but sucks to suck honestly. It sucks that crappy people like cheaters exist where we have to put something like this in place, but the benefits much outweight the cons, ide much rather lose a few players on bad pc's than losing entire groups of players at a time due to cheaters.
Can't servers be able to detect when someone is using the pie-ray? And maybe instead of having a plugin constantly generating fake entities, it could generate one or a few at a time at random intervals to throw off base hunters? It may not be perfect, but it'd make them waste substantially more time.
To me this seems the exact same as X-ray texture packs and while being a client side feature completely accessible to all players, it should not be allowed on servers
This could be countered with decoys. When you build a base, randomly scatter large numbers of decoy chests, ender chests, etc., in random underground locations all around your base - ideally for thousands of blocks around if it's a huge important base you're protecting. And then make sure the real base doesn't have a significant concentration greater than any of the decoys. This would be a lot of work, but for a massive important base, it would be worth the effort. A griefer who found the area would find the decoys, and would search for a very, very long time before finding the actual base. It's very, very easy to dig down 50 blocks, bury a few chests in a manner in which there are no open spaces - making them as difficult to find as possible - and then fill the dirt and stone back in to the surface. One person with enough resources could easily create dozens of decoys in an hour. For a large base involving multiple people working over a period of months, the network of decoys could be massive and extend out thousands of blocks in all directions - potentially thousands of individual decoy locations. A griefer who found the area would suspect that they had indeed found a base, but after investigating and finding decoy after decoy after decoy, it would be a very frustrating hunt, and few would have the determination to keep searching. A decoy could also be put right near the surface above a base deep underground. Someone who found the decoy might think they'd found everything there was to find if they weren't paying attention. It would take a little more work to put things such as villagers in a decoy, but this could be done in some of them. And, with some creativity and a little more expense, the occasional decoy could even be boobytrapped with TNT to kill anyone who tries to investigate it. In fact, if this became a widespread practice, decoys could even be placed randomly in the world well away from bases. You would never know if you'd found a base or just a decoy. This would still require base-builders to limit the number of chests, etc., to what could reasonably be seen at a decoy, but given the other options for storage, this isn't really impractical, and you don't have to completely avoid tile entities that show up on pieray. A thorough adoption of decoys would severely limit the usefulness of pieray. It wouldn't eliminate it - you would occasionally stumble on a real base, and a huge concentration would still be a probable base - but it would significantly reduce the problem.
-Replace chests with barrels -Store your shulkers and enchant tables in barrels until you have to use them. This might be a lot of work, but it’s worth it to avoid base griefing
Finally someone in my feed is talking about this (even if I did miss this video by 2 months). I honestly think the fact that it gets called "Pieray" is enough to suggest it as a problem. Servers have been banning x-ray since the beginning, and for good reason. X-ray, but slightly more difficult to use, is still x-ray...just with a little more hit-or-miss. I would honestly like to see a mod utilized that actually disables F3 entirely...imagine a server with no coords for the players....and players actually have to write up signs and/or books that have directions to important locations...no /home, no /warp or /tp..."breadcrumbs", maps, and other creative ways of path finding. But I digress...it should be disabled entirely on all worlds that are not hosted locally...It can be a useful tool for diagnostics for a server owner/runner, but nothing good comes of the end user having the feature except on their own local worlds.
Idea for survival servers: soft land claim A claimed area can have effects put on it that at least significantly slow down griefing and stealing. Effects such as disabling or nerfing explosions, mining fatigue or even a discord notification for the base owners and buffs for defending the base. These could be bought with materials or smth or are there by default. This wouldn't outright block griefing but make it harder. And it could be applied in 3D so that you could still hide the base underground without suspicious effects on the surface.
I think there should be a gamerule to disable the F3 menu. That would allow servers to easily disable it. Then they could just use a plugin that lets people see their coordinates. The other information on the debug is relatively useless from 1.18 forward because the only other useful data was the light level to make sure mobs didn't spawn. In 1.18, they changed it so mobs only spawned when the light level was 0 which you can easily tell just by looking at it. The gamerule could still allow the F3+*Key* keybinds though because those are actually useful.
It's still good for debugging clientside issues like lag, as well as giving co-ords to friends and doing measurements without spending ages punching blocks and counting.
@@montyfatcat8871 Well, you can copy the coords using the same plugin that displays them. Not sure what you would need to debug clientside on a server that you need the F3 menu for (and not the keybinds that use F3) but feel free to tell me. As for the measurements, I don't see how anything in it besides the pie chart could actually help with that and getting rid of pieray would require getting rid of the pie chart at the minimum anyway. You could probably do length and width using the chunk borders which are a keybind. I don't know how anything is going to help you with the height.
@@mik11112 Mods cannot override gamerules on servers because the gamerules are serverside and mods on servers can only change things clientside. Otherwise, we would have hacked clients that just automatically made you opped and the owner of the server by pressing a single button. Because that is serverside, hacked clients need to brute force the password to get you opped.
@@Shugunou It's not serverside same as xray. Xray cannot be diabled by a server it can only be obfuscated. Same with this, you can't stop it. All you can do is place w whole bunch of decoys around the world to make it useless.
They just need to add a server option that completely removes any debug tools and options so people cannot access any of it, including coordinates... As to not upset some of the more sensitive players that desperately need to know their coords, they should also add a option to display coordinates like in Bedrock but nothing more.
@@vitorvena I mean there's nothing you can do apart from faking entities and such, but this approach also has drawbacks: it won't work with a lot of entities, and it kills performance.
@@Brawaru yeah thats why they need to properly deal with the monster that they created themselves, they need to make a option that completely deletes that functionality from those who wish to prevent the constant info abuse...
On one hand, how did we even get to a point where "should it be possible to disable the DEBUG SCREEN on a multiplayer server" is a question, on the other hand it can trivially be brought back with a clientside mod if server were to send a signal to disable it, so I'm leaning towards the fake tile entities solution As someone who's familiar with Minecraft's source code, it should be doable with little performance impact, they don't actually need to exist serverside as tile entities, the most computationally intensive part will be picking actually culled coordinates to put the fake tile entities in and aborting them if player were to uncover it, latter of which might be solvable elegantly with a block update hook If I get my uni stuff done with I might try to take this on
I'm talking about obfuscating a base that uses an enchanting table and an ender chest, not one that uses 50 enchanting tables for decoration, you need only say N~(4, 1) fake tile entities around a player with high render distance Either way, the problem isn't the pie chart, but the server broadcasting every nearby TE to client in order to render it. Tile entity ESP hacks have existed for years. Any solution to hide or remove the pie chart, especially if a server already bans both pieray and hacks, will fundamentally do nothing to people who want to break the rules
Best way to hide your base: Travel out 100.000s to millions of blocks to build your base. I built a base on 2b2t between one million and two million blocks from spawn, came back one year later and it was still ungriefed/undetected. The fastest way to get this far out (if you don't have elytra + fireworks) is actually to mine in a straight line in the nether roof directly below bedrock. The first layers below the bedrock roof are 100 % filled, so you can't fall into any cave there and can essentially afk-mine.
Keep it, a lot of players use it for usefull stuff like finding forteresses, the portal room ect. Also, finding bases without it is allmost impossible and it would remove a lot of the competitivnes of the game. Another thing is, that while against the rules, I wouldn't be supprised if at least half of the bases that were "found with piray" were actually just found with esp hacks or texture packs. But they can just get away with it by saying "found using piray". Also, if you want to completely stop that, you would have to remove f3, pichart, texture packs, and mods. So I don't think it's a good thing to remove. If you want to fix it tho, I suggest getting a plugin that sends false packets to the client so the client thinks there are chests and shulkers... when there aren't. (mush like anti-Xray plugins)
So just use furnaces and dispensers to store your items? Not too hard. It has been done on most anarchy servers ive been in, and is a cheap and easy way to prevent sloppy storage-esp users and this
Then people would just search for furnaces and dispensers with pieray, both only occur naturally in villages or jungle temples, if the player doesn't see either it becomes pretty obvious what's happening. Storage isn't an issue, people can still use chests for storage, but it's annoying and often hard to remember to always break your block entities as soon as you use them.
@@riverlake4642 yeah, PieRay only works for stuff that has a block entity renderer attached - think smoothly animated blocks like chests or shulkers, or campfires because you can place items on them. Barrels store extra data, but just render as a normal block, so are protected from pieray
One way you could probably remove Pieray is by requiring the use of a mod that disables it. This would also reduce the number of players as a side effect.
Mojang should not do anything about this. It would make debugging hard. Server owners should simply configure their anti xray to replace blocks with blocks that appear on pieray if they want to block pieray.
the best way to combat this issue would be to make some form on orebfuscator type plugin, making like a grid of random blocks that would appear on the pie ray, essentially rendering the pie useless because it would always be saying that there is a special block nearby
it would be quite performance intensive, but i think we could go the OTHER way, enchanting tables and ender chests for example can be replaced on clientside by obsidian blocks, anvils with iron blocks and chests with planks/wood, shulkers maybe with purpur or concrete and only turn into the real blocks when player is nearby (ex. within 16 blocks) it would break some chest/hopper systems, but its simple fix by just using barrels
@@arekkrol9758 yeah I'm not surprised if it would but you could use the blocks a lot more sparingly as opposed to orebfuscator which spawn in on every block around you
Minecraft having this by default is not a big deal since you can access these features with "mods" without causing any suspicious activities on server side. Also having full access to view anything that is sent to your computer is a well known thing on multiplayer games. Like, some random dude can randomly go around and save all of the data it receives from the server and use that data to re-create the world. Which is a well known thing on multiplayer games as I said. Client can be in any form and you cannot have any controll on it.
Actually it can be 'removed' by servers with anti xray plugins etc that basically make it impossible to use properly and you can pretty easily counter it. I explain it in my video that you showed on screen! 3:46
Even if they did anything a server called hypixel will stay on 1.8 server side and refuse to move on so they can keep their 1.8 PVP players who refuse to get good all over again even after 7 years
I mean I wouldn't say this is ruining servers... Anyone who knows how to read the chart probably also knows how to download a hacked client that's as easy as dragging a .jar file into your mods folder and you instantly have x-ray, base finder, free cam, etc, etc
i think pieray is a healthy feature within vanilla, has some very good uses such as for speedrunning, but like other comments suggest an easy way to counter this is by sending random tile entities so that the pieray is always flooded.
Genuine question because I’m having trouble understanding: why are people upset that others are finding ways to to grief and raid, when they specifically chose to join a server where griefing and raiding is allowed? Why not join a server where it’s not allowed, or that has the ability to claim chunks?
@@pablopinedo2799 how is it unbalanced if everyone has it? If people choose to play anarchy, then they should be on high alert at all times or try to grief others, if not they should play on safer servers
Because this feature wasn't made to be used as a normal gameplay feature. The F-button menus are supposed to be for research and experimentation, not for an advantage in a server. The only exception that is here is coordinates, which were made to be used as a normal gameplay feature. If you want to raid and grief a base in servers, including specific ones like these, then maybe you should actually use effort. Listen to the noises in-game around you. Look out for any suspicious unnatural blocks. Also my last point is a bit irrevelant and maybe sounds stupid, but I think there should be a law, with a small fine, that basically is meant to stop cheaters.
Should mojang have a way to disable it on servers? OH MY GOSH YES!! But should you ban people for using vanilla features when what your doing with that feature doesn’t break the rules like for example if griefing is allowed should you penalize the specific methods in which it’s used NO ABSOLUTELY NOT! It creates a way for confusion people to not understand the rules and unfair punishments and regulations!
Minecraft was and will always be a survival game. If you join an SMP, then you’re asking to participate in effectively pvp as well, unless the server states otherwise
Hey! We also had this issue in our lifestealsmp server. It was difficult to fix, I've asked almost anyone but luckily I found this problem that completely breaks pie-ray! It's called Orebfuscator (Anti X-Ray), it's a spigot plugin. It stopped players in my server from abusing the pie to find bases underground.
Join my minecraft server to be in future vids! og-network.net
Bedrock Port: 19132
Server Discord: discord.gg/G7zq6NPZnM
PIE
will join
maybe add an epilepsy warning at 4:36
There is so many free Robux scams in your comments, act fast it can really harm channels
@@deccyhuh shush he already knows
As a server owner this could be avoided by simply sending the client a large amount of random fake tile entities for the pi chart to detect at all times, essentially drowning out any real detections in the noise. I know something similar is used to prevent x-ray on some servers.
I'd imagine it's just a client-side measurement, if there was something to do with the server then there would probably already be a fix for it
yeah, the anti-xray generates fake ores to throw off would-be x-rayers
This is actually the main concept behind the "Decoy post" technique I just came up with. Place player-produced tile entities one chunk apart in a large area to the point where it becomes a hassle to figure out just where a base is.
Sounds like anti-xray can be repurposed for anti-pieray but I haven't try it
@@Shrecked what part of the config?
For those who are curious: Barrels are block entities. However, they're only block entities on the server because, unlike chests, they have no special block entity rendering. This means the client never knows about their presence besides as a simple block, making them unfindable with pie-ray.
Interesting
Do stuff like dispensers and droppers also work as they got no special rendering
Also barrels are cheaper than chests to make as chests cost 8 planks whipe barrels cost 6 planks and 2 slabs which is 7 planks in total
Undetectable is a better word to use
@@redknight07_ Dispensers, droppers, and hoppers would work, but they don't store that much.
“There are no circles in Minecraft”
Circles in Minecraft:
Hahahahaha
Technically its a cylinder with low height.
a cylinder has two circular faces
@@O5MO cylinders have 2 circular faces so it would technically your wrong
Also, there are no circles in real life... They're just regular polygons with infinite sides...
keep it, but add a plug-in that randomly spawns shulker boxes, enchantment tables, and other such player-placed tile entities underground and removes them when a player gets close just to mess with people
this. the anti x-ray plugin pieray edition
This is basically the concept behind my "decoy post" technique that I came up with: Use player-made tile-entities that act as a smokescreen.
Change the lowest block in the world to y -65 and pepper the area under bedrock with those items.
This wouldn't even be hard to code I think. Such an easy fix to a huge problem.
@@MichaelRBaron bedrock breaking glitches
RIP Architect base, that base lasted an entire year and it drastically outperformed our expectations. Thanks for the huge shout-out!
It was an awesome base
This is why I like just being on friends server where we all build stuff where ever we want without needing to worry about griefing
Seems like a headache to deal with otherwise
Yea, honestly.. Why would anyone like to play on a public server with griefers. You can do also with friends server politics, clans and etc
@@bendze bc its funny to have a risk of getting griefed and grief other players ;D
@@bendze Well what if I don't have friends |:
@@klagenfurter_ori_sandla74 and then if you get griefed, you will end up raging anyways. Or if they force ban you or trap you infinite..
@@velocity9OOOYT I mean, neither do I have trustworthy friends, but if you want minecraft friends, it's maybe better getting them from Hypixel from team games, but it's up to you, so feel free to get them from an anarchy server if you feel so. It was only a tip from me.
This is a better tutorial on how to use the pie chart than most of the videos that try to explain it!
yeah I wonder why
The secret to getting help fixing a problem is step 1: make it louder and more obvious / widespread.
@@Skotoseme really do. btw I just went and edited _my_ pieray tut’s description after re-watching urs.
I actually was playing on your server a year ago, and my first base was raided and destroyed because of the chests I had. I moved to a separate location, and my storage room was obliterated. I had no idea until a mod told me that pie ray was the likely culprit for my bases being found. So I implemented the very strategies you talked about in this video when dealing with what blocks to place and how to store enchantment tables.
You could definitely patch out use of pieray by making tile entities not within a certain radius of the player simply be replaced with air on the client side, with the real block appearing once they get close enough. For entities, you could make them non-existant until the player gets closer, which then they will appear. Another way would be making sure the player has to be able to directly see said entity/tile entity before the server shows it to them. These ideas could be costly on server performance though.
@@Jokypond what
@@JmKrokY it's a Splatoon meme and OP has a Splatoon profile pic
@@DavidJCobb wdym, could you explain more
This would only slightly nerf it, lol. And checking if a player can see a block would require raytracing for every player and chest, which is the exact function that causes TNT being laggy, to say the least.
Nice idea
I can see how Minecraft speedrunning community might be the unintended culprit for popularizing pie-raying, as it exposed this method to the broader public last year. Every tool can become a double-edged sword. A blessing for speedrunners, a curse for those SMPs.
MC "speedrunning" killed a lot of good things in the wider game. I say "speedrunning" as they now use calculators to do things from outside the game. I know the "community" accepted it, but the main people wanting to accept it were people with a large following, thus allowing for the main runners at the time get better times, and ruining the actual skill for dimension travel.
@@nitroglycerin_3455 From what I can tell, It's just a calculator, it doesn't stop from speedrunners having a poster with bunch of pre-made calculation ready to go.
What next? we need eye tracking software so we can stop that too?
I hope Mojang doesn't get rid of this, it's a really useful feature for finding out why you're lagging.
I think there should be a way to disable it on servers at the very least since it makes hiding your base significantly harder
@@Quackra yeah there should be a way to toggle
they could make it only avavaible if you have command permissions
Agreed, there are a ton of legitimate reasons to use it.
Plus, waiting forever for Mojang to implement anything is too slow anyway, a better solution imo would be for the server to implement something to fix it, which would also reduce the advantage of hacked clients as well.
Nah bro just get a 10,000 dollar pc
Pieray is very similar to how entity lists or block search functionalities work in hacked clients, just a bit harder to use. The problem is that the server sends the client the entire chunk, whether or not you can see a feature in the chunk or not. I'd rather implement an anti-pi ray more like how anti-xray currently works on servers.
Yeah lots of drama over hot air. Pieray can't do anything that can't alread be done by good old X-Ray mods, Hacked clients or heck, even a simple X-Ray texture packs.
The brainwormed "solutions" for pieray everyone has already exist for Xray too and the reason most server owners don't use them is because they *severely* cripple server and client performance (To a degree they can be the #1 source of lag on an otherwise perfectly fine set up server)
Technically, modifying the chunk packet before it is sent to the player works, although at the cost of server performance (which is a small cost for that tbh)
@@Akab Interesting that nobody ever thinks of THAT solution. See that would actually be a good solution instead of creating a bunch of garbage data bloat
Of all the things I expected people to use to find bases, I did not expect the pie in the F3 menu to be one of them. Actually surprising.
Back when I used to love factions, I would use f3 on a very low end laptop. When half my frames dropped, it meant a mega base was nearby. There was also an entity counter that was extremely helpful for faction servers with custom spawners.
Iirc pieray is used in speedruns to find bastions of nether fortresses
Hey, I am the guy who discovered Pie Ray.
The story how I found it is a bit hillarious.
I was reading the minecraft wiki about the debug screen like three times to find something cool that could be used as an advantage.
The first two attempts were a failure because I was concerned there is nothing new about the F3.
After each time I read the wikipedia I gave up and I had a break from reading it for a few months.
When I read the wikipedia for the third time thinking there is nothing new to be found, I scrolled down to the pie chart information.
When I noticed the wikipedia says that it is possible to navigate through it using 0-9 numbers I instantly got a brainwave.
I hopped on minecraft and found the path that showed the blockentities.
After I realised how it works, I instantly knew that it can be used in speedrunning to find nether fortresses, villages and that it can be used in base hunting.
I shared the discovery with the speedrun community and they loved it.
Speedrunners started to learn it and almost everyone use it now.
They started to experiment with it.
One of the speedrunners - TheTalkingMime found a path in Pie Ray that can be used to find buried treasure without the map.
The strategy is called mapless.
This is definitely the best use of Pie Ray in modern speedrunning as the buried treasure can be found fast and it contains food, iron and sometimes tnt for the blocks.
I was so surprised mapless was a thing, I would probably never discover it on my own.
I am really proud that discovering the Pie Ray, helped the speedrunners to beat the game faster and gave them opportunity to experiment with it further to find more.
It is so cool to see every speedrunner in the world using your strategy.
Thanks for making this video, since I had no idea if it is widely used in base hunting and people should be aware that something like this exists, so they can hide their bases better.
That's pretty interesting
Fun Fact: I know of pie chart at least since 1.8 snapshots but never give it relevance.
Keep it in, it's a vanilla feature and it honestly made OGSMP more interesting. Plus trying to find people's bases can be fun
It's also useful for finding out why you're lagging
What are your thoughts on X-ray resource packs as changing resource packs is also a vanilla feature that can make finding people’s bases fun
@@graluvack9760 does minecraft come out of the box with texture packs and more specifically X-ray texture packs? No? Then it’s not vanilla
Yeah it's fun to destroy someones base. 😄
@@graluvack9760 no, it involves changing the textures of blocks.
Edit: textures not data
Here's a good way (I think) to render it useless:
Always have such blocks present, for example the worldgen could be changed so there are randomly ender chests and other blocks hidden inside the bedrock at the bottom of the world, so weather you're detecting a base or just a random hidden block is impossible to tell.
problem : if there is a lot of chest , it would still spike up a little and secondly , tile entities cause lag
@@AngelosDeNotitia solution: run it like an anti xray program, there are tile entities placed which are removed when a player gets near
you dont need to have the blocks present, just send the client the info of them being there, which will register on the pie chart
@@kairon5249 and this is the decently better solution
@@squishmellow3 that will actually lag it even more i think
dang and I thought the only people who used this were like speedrunners when searching for buried treasure (at least from my experience)
though I guess that's one thing bedrock servers have over java servers (since the debug screen isn't usable on Bedrock unless you have some developer version)
And they say there's no circle in Minecraft
Lmao
Moral: Be ready for losses if you play on anarchy servers or do not play on them at all. Even if Mojang ever decide to remove pieray from the game, hacks are always here.
Whether or not certain debug options are available to players should absolutely be something that can be configured in a server's settings. Just add some lines in there like "allow-all-debug", "allow-coordinates", "allow-reload", etc. With maybe admins exempted from these restrictions.
Not allowing chunk reload? Are you MENTAL? RELOADING CHUNKS CAN FIX RENDERING ISSUES, THAT OTHERS COULD ABUSE AGAINST YOU.
@@TheaPeanut_69old bedrock says hi
yea, just like in the past they took away our ability to lookup world seed
Also, mods exist. Just the ability to see the area around you too down has major implications, and the server has no way of checking. I always have Xaero's minimap installed. Very helpful when cave diving
@@Demopans5990 doesnt that minimap mod disable cave mode to people who lack OP privileges?
I didn't know that the pie chart is very useful in MC servers. Thanks for the video!
Bro used a “How this is ruining Minecraft” video to learn how to pie-ray 💀
I think the biggest reason why Minecraft might get out competed (either by Hytale or some other game in the same genre) is that it is so, so poorly optimized for servers, which is one of its main attractions. Its like every handy little feature or weird quirk somehow has the ability to cause chaos in a multiplayer environment, and many multiplayer features that would be very useful just... don't exist. I can see why the Hypixel team got frustrated enough to go ahead and just decide to make their own game from scratch.
I don't think Hytale will become famous than Minecraft (maybe only when Minecraft officially dies, but not while there are still people playing it)
@@fosminclorin Well, I what makes me think that is how many people are prepared to jump ship. Micro$oft has slowly been turning up the heat with strongly disliked changes, and for now people are disgruntled yet tolerate them with various workarounds because there isn't much in the way of competition. Plus, the RUclips scene will quite dramatically shift to the shiny new game as people try to get in on the hype. It really is the perfect storm, and the incredibly unoptimized Minecraft just doesn't have a whole lot to compete with.
@@StuffandThings_ and when is that fan game even coming out? Lol
@@fosminclorin They'll take their time, and the patient members of the community will be rewarded. I'm glad that they're making sure the game is polished from the start, instead of hastily releasing a mediocre game and riding the hype. The patient members of the community will be greatly rewarded, and the strong foundations will be a godsend for modding, servers, and updates. A sloppy start is one of the things plaguing Minecraft (granted, it is understandable considering how organically Minecraft grew and how unique it was).
@@StuffandThings_ yeah, Minecraft was unique, Hytale is not. It just feels like a fan game or a copy cat. People are overhyping the game before being released. If Minecraft is dying, then people won't be as interested to play another block game to the point of making it more popular than the original. Everyone knows about Minecraft, not everyone knows about Hytale and I don't think it will have the same hype as Minecraft once did. Especially if it's too complex.
I feel like a probable solution for this if Mojang were to care enough to do something would be to give server owners the ability to block use of it. It's useful for bugfixing, especially in singleplayer and/or modded, so I don't think it should be outright deleted, but having a way to prevent its use on servers would be good.
It should ABSOLUTELY be up to the server owner, whether pie-ray is enabled or not
It's not possible... It's handle client-side.
Well, it's technicaly possible to add an option to not show it, but it would be so easy to activate it anyway by changing the value of the option in the client files.
Tbh, I think you can cheat so easily on Minecraft because it was made as a PvE exploration game, where cheat do not matter, but most people play it as a PvP combat game...
@@pierrotA minecraft is much more than just a basic pvp game
@@pierrotA i know thats my point, there should be a way to disable it
@@pierrotA you can send fake non-existent tile entities, that's how orebfuscator works.
There are dozens of different ways to discover bases through the F3 menu if you know where to look. At that point, servers would have to find a way to disable F3 entirely. No, this is a stupid thing to complain about.
There is a setting in the server that restricts the debug menu. With this setting on, I believe players can’t see their coordinates, but it also disables the debug pie.
you can easily prevent it, since it looks for those blocks, there is an anti xray plugin that changes the blocks around players to fake ore blocks to throw them off + make it impossible to xray. You can just add all the blocks that pie ray detects in the same way. So basically there are always shulker boxes, echests, enchant tables etc in the chunks that players are loading so their pie ray will always show that those blocks are appearing in the chunks and makes it impossible to use pie ray.
@@sxlect6414 but that’s entirely unnecessary and complicated if you just disable the debug pi all together. If there isn’t a way to disable the debug pi without disabling choords, then it makes sense, and it would be funny wasting people’s time like this. But if you can just disable it, then you don’t need to go through that effort.
@@GamerX-2000 its not possible to disable pie ray cuz its in every client
I don't think there would be an issue disabling coords from the vanilla debug menu since that could potentially be replaced by a server plugin anyway.
@@Wadusher and there’s a setting for it. It’s what disables the coords in rl craft.
The real issue in vanilla-like SMPs is that once bases are found, it is inevitable that they will be griefed. And you can't really stop people from using any of the 5-10 Xray methods that are in vanilla.
IMO to actually stop the x ray issue there need to be features in the game that allow you to defend bases even if they are found.
Yea, those are called cuboids.
This way you can only grief by tnt cannons until you punch your way to the ,,heart" of the cuboid.
I think a good solution to this is placing a chest and enchantment table in every chunk near your base or even more like 1k-20k block radius, it will confuse the hunter so the hunter won't know where exactly your base is.
Better: lay out a 1k grid; put some jitter into it, then lay out about 200 enchanting tables the jittered grid. He'll have to search that 30k x 30k area for the base. It'll take awhile.
Decoys are the solution. The bigger the network of decoys, the longer it will take to search it. For a big important base with a lot of builders, it should be possible to have the decoys extend thousands of blocks in every direction.
But don't put the real base in the exact center...
And don't have the real base have a huge concentration of chests, etc. It should show up like it might plausibly be just another decoy.
Bonus points for booby-trapping some decoys with TNT...
It's like a built-in hack client feature.
minecraft experts to people in hidden bases: Hey wanna see something cool?
*wrecks them with the pie chart*
you could also set a lot of decoy items around your base, also finding the exact position of the base is a lot faster if you use gamerenderer instead of tick, you should use tick to find it and gamerenderer to find the exact position (just look at a mapless burried treassure guide for speedrunning 1.16+)
Congrats on 500k my dude! can't believe you got here so fast, but i am (slowly) following your footsteps! ;D
As soon as you mentioned pieray I knew and serverd that allow raiding i knew what was up. I use it regularly to find all sorts of cool things like spawners to set up my base near them, so I can see why it would be a problem.
The pie chart is quintessential to speedruns and mod makers alike, first for locating nether fortresses/approximating the stronghold portal room from a glance, and in the modded side of minecraft it's one of the most useful debugging tools out there that helps you pinpoint exactly what's causing lag and/or unoptimized rendering. To have mojang remove it would bring us closer to how Bedrock has so few debug/developer features and would strip us of a BIG mechanic out there. If hackless anarchy servers want pie charts nerfed, just obfuscate block entities by sending client-side fake blocks randomly underground at all times to deter people from even opening that thing, but please don't bring this up to Mojang to fix it; it's invaluable
Or just simply expand the world border on your server. You still need to load the chunks for pie ray to work. If world border of OG-Network was raised from the current 55,000 blocks to 200,000+ blocks, pie ray would be less an issue.
"My server has had an influx of players' bases being found by an unpatchable exploit.
Come join today!"
lol
Simple, place a random amount of chests, etc in every chunk, so the f3 pie is always filled with bad noise
very simple indeed...
no lag involved 100%
or any chunk errors would happen 100% guaranteed
There are anti x-ray plugins that send garbled block data in areas out of view of the player...
Just add one of those plugins (I've used Orebfuscator in the past) set the blocks to be ender chests, enchanting tables, etc.
This effectively stops this, and multiple other exploits, at the expense of some lag...
Orebfuscator is honestly one of the worst solutions to the problems, as it is one of the most lag intensive plugins one could add to the server. For a small server (say, maximum of 10 players) it is fine but for any large server it is unmaintainable without impacting performance.
Any and all optimisation one might have done before to the server before, goes out of the window. And this is in an enviroment where server resources, are of high value. Does everyone forget that idle serverload doubled ever since 1.16, and became *much* worse since 1.19?
You can easily prevent it, since it looks for those blocks, there is an anti xray plugin that changes the blocks around players to fake ore blocks to throw them off + make it impossible to xray. You can just add all the blocks that pie ray detects in the same way. So basically there are always shulker boxes, echests, enchant tables etc in the chunks that players are loading so their pie ray will always show that those blocks are appearing in the chunks and makes it impossible to use pie ray.
Who the hell spends 300k to grief a Minecraft base like that's such a waste of money
As a counter-point, I think tools like pie-ray keep base hunting methods on a level playing field, even though it's a bit like a tactical nuke in terms of power. Without it however, players would simply find other methods, which some players might not have access to, or it may go too far and take things into the real world with hacking/social engineering. I don't like that this is a problem, but at the same time I don't think it's anywhere near the worst version of what this problem could be.
I've known about pie raying for over a year now, the best way to go undetected from block entities is to not use the blocks that show up on it (keep in mind, on some versions, jukeboxes also show up on pieray so consider not using those either) you don't have to worry much about the entities section since most pie rayers don't use it, however if they look at the E counter and notice a sudden spike in it they might find your base that way as well, so keep farms with tons of mobs away from your base
"allow debugging" with the options of All, OP, and None should be added as a setting for servers
make the server send gamerule reducedDebugInfo to certain players?
@@nanopi I assume the debug info is calculated client side but it would be best if you had to get an enable to use it on servers.... Plenty of clients that would cause issues though
Turns out that reducedDebugInfo removes coordinates but not the pie
Respect the live demo, but something like 4:36 could really use an epilepsy warning with the fast refreshing of chunks.
The pie chart is client side.
Server send the chunk info, piechart tells you what's in the info.
Only way to remove it is by magically not sending info about those blocks, however it would be really inconvenient for the base-owners who wouldn't even see their chests anymore.
Plugins/server mods could do that, although youre right that players would so not see tbeir chests anymore by default...
2 midground solutions would be:
A: players can oy see their own chests
B: those blockentities wjll only be rendered if the player is close enough
@@Akab Option B can be eliminated if server implament a sort of Entity Culling server side, but you then get performence issue
It’s funny how players starting to make barrel vaults to fight against pieray is just like the solution players came up with to mitigate xrayers back when I played factions where players made dropper vaults instead since they aren’t usually detected
"this feature ruins servers" explains in grave detail how to use it
At least someone points it out
4:35 needs a flashing lights warning damn
You're so close to 500k! You deserve it man, early congrats 🎉
I don't really get the fuss over pieray specifically; xray resource packs have been around for ages, and even a simple freecam mod allowing you to look undergound would be undetectable, since nothing changes from the server's point of view (without client-side anticheat (i.e. a mandatory rootkit) that is, but that's a whole separate can of worms). Anti-xray server mods that limit what parts of the world are sent to the client are the way to go. I suspect these could help reduce clientbound traffic as well by making chunk data packets smaller, although server-side cpu load could increase.
This might be a bit of a stretch, but I do know that in a modpack I play in called Vault Hunters, the dimension called "The Vault" actually disables coords on the F3 screen. Maybe it's possible to delete the pie ray through similar means?
In my opinion, servers should have the goal of colonization, conquest, and civilization. Essentially, the point is making players into various civilizations, whose task is to prosper by building every possible farm. (Obviously, currently non renewable items should be made renewable via plug-ins and mods). They're supposed to build blue ice nether highways, they're supposed to exploit the biomes, they're supposed to rebuild ancient structures. Since this is a civilization, they should have all of its pillars (social structure, economy government, etc). Religion is optional and must be enforced if used. The secondary job of the civilizations is to expand their own territory, taking the land that is unclaimed (the keyword is "claim," there won't be any ability to prevent the destruction of land other than the use of walls, traps, people, etc.) and the territory that is claimed. They're supposed to conquer the other civilizations, with the end goal being an actual society whose resources (that means EVERY item) are all easily renewable.
You cant really expect this to not be what keeps many servers going strong for years, but yes it does have some big downsides
I'm honestly surprised something like this isn't a Creative Mode/OP exclusive thing. I can only assume that Mojang just didn't expect anyone to use this feature for the sake of griefing.
yea, but on the other hand it would only keep the honest people honest, cheaters would still use x-ray mods, xray texture packs and hack clients to do same thing
@@arekkrol9758 So? Are you saying that it's useless to patch this exploit just because third-party clients offers the same functionality?
@@OneOnlyDan I mean.. yeah.. if the exact same thing can be done with an undetectable client, why patch it?
It's called a Piechart and not Pieray, just the method used to find stuff with it is called Pieray.
The Piechart is a useful feature and whoever can't handle it shouldn't play on servers where griefing is allowed.
Edit: And you can find underground base way easier by using the composter glitch (no antixray does not help against that, unlike you said in the "Gamebreaking" client desync glitch you found in another video)
You can prevent this. But the Community is just too lazy to do it.
Make a Minecraft Version Stripped of this Pie-Ray and only allow players to connect with this version.
Speedrunners also use pie-raying strats to perform help locate features faster, such as buried treasures, piglin bastions, nether fortresses, and end portal rooms.
Yeah, it's a shame Mr. Epic failed to mention this use of pie ray. Like he wanted to demonize it, when it's just a vanilla gameplay mechanic.
All you need is to send a single packet every time a player traverses a chunk spawning in a chest somewhere out of site in the chunk. This makes it always appear in the pie chart.
Alternatively, just replace tile entities with air until you get within a certain distance from them.
Its called anarchy (Semi) for a reason, if a base isn't found eventually, then there is less risk....
This is why plugins such as orebfuscator are so important, sending fake blocks to the player is one of the MOST EFFICIENT ways to solve this xray/pieray exploit.
Ive been involved with MC Mod/Plugin development for a very long time, I always write up a small plugin that sends fake blocks to the player via packets on my servers. I will never play any server that doesn't have an orebfuscator equivalent on it, it shows a lack of experience as a server administrator.
"But orebfuscator is laggy on my server!!11!!" - Shush, quit running servers on your local PC, this isn't good for security either. If your server cant handle orebfuscator that's all on you & your host, there's no excuse for not having a plugin like this on your server in 2023.
"But orebfuscator is laggy for the client!!!1!1!" - Sorry, but sucks to suck honestly. It sucks that crappy people like cheaters exist where we have to put something like this in place, but the benefits much outweight the cons, ide much rather lose a few players on bad pc's than losing entire groups of players at a time due to cheaters.
Congrats on 500k! Keep the quality content up.
Can't servers be able to detect when someone is using the pie-ray?
And maybe instead of having a plugin constantly generating fake entities, it could generate one or a few at a time at random intervals to throw off base hunters? It may not be perfect, but it'd make them waste substantially more time.
To me this seems the exact same as X-ray texture packs and while being a client side feature completely accessible to all players, it should not be allowed on servers
This could be countered with decoys.
When you build a base, randomly scatter large numbers of decoy chests, ender chests, etc., in random underground locations all around your base - ideally for thousands of blocks around if it's a huge important base you're protecting. And then make sure the real base doesn't have a significant concentration greater than any of the decoys.
This would be a lot of work, but for a massive important base, it would be worth the effort.
A griefer who found the area would find the decoys, and would search for a very, very long time before finding the actual base.
It's very, very easy to dig down 50 blocks, bury a few chests in a manner in which there are no open spaces - making them as difficult to find as possible - and then fill the dirt and stone back in to the surface. One person with enough resources could easily create dozens of decoys in an hour. For a large base involving multiple people working over a period of months, the network of decoys could be massive and extend out thousands of blocks in all directions - potentially thousands of individual decoy locations. A griefer who found the area would suspect that they had indeed found a base, but after investigating and finding decoy after decoy after decoy, it would be a very frustrating hunt, and few would have the determination to keep searching.
A decoy could also be put right near the surface above a base deep underground. Someone who found the decoy might think they'd found everything there was to find if they weren't paying attention.
It would take a little more work to put things such as villagers in a decoy, but this could be done in some of them.
And, with some creativity and a little more expense, the occasional decoy could even be boobytrapped with TNT to kill anyone who tries to investigate it.
In fact, if this became a widespread practice, decoys could even be placed randomly in the world well away from bases. You would never know if you'd found a base or just a decoy.
This would still require base-builders to limit the number of chests, etc., to what could reasonably be seen at a decoy, but given the other options for storage, this isn't really impractical, and you don't have to completely avoid tile entities that show up on pieray.
A thorough adoption of decoys would severely limit the usefulness of pieray. It wouldn't eliminate it - you would occasionally stumble on a real base, and a huge concentration would still be a probable base - but it would significantly reduce the problem.
-Replace chests with barrels
-Store your shulkers and enchant tables in barrels until you have to use them.
This might be a lot of work, but it’s worth it to avoid base griefing
Rather just play offline or own my own server than to deal with all that work, tbh
Finally someone in my feed is talking about this (even if I did miss this video by 2 months). I honestly think the fact that it gets called "Pieray" is enough to suggest it as a problem. Servers have been banning x-ray since the beginning, and for good reason. X-ray, but slightly more difficult to use, is still x-ray...just with a little more hit-or-miss. I would honestly like to see a mod utilized that actually disables F3 entirely...imagine a server with no coords for the players....and players actually have to write up signs and/or books that have directions to important locations...no /home, no /warp or /tp..."breadcrumbs", maps, and other creative ways of path finding. But I digress...it should be disabled entirely on all worlds that are not hosted locally...It can be a useful tool for diagnostics for a server owner/runner, but nothing good comes of the end user having the feature except on their own local worlds.
Griefers are going to have a field day using this.
They already have… some of us hermits lost our bases due to some people doing this.
any xray can do this better, the solution, just like with xray, is any antixray / orebufscator plugin
Normal servers: noooo you cant use pie ray thats illegal!
2b2t: he he funny wheel go brrrrrrr
Idea for survival servers: soft land claim
A claimed area can have effects put on it that at least significantly slow down griefing and stealing. Effects such as disabling or nerfing explosions, mining fatigue or even a discord notification for the base owners and buffs for defending the base. These could be bought with materials or smth or are there by default. This wouldn't outright block griefing but make it harder. And it could be applied in 3D so that you could still hide the base underground without suspicious effects on the surface.
It shouldn't be removed, but more access to disabling it server side should be provided
I think there should be a gamerule to disable the F3 menu. That would allow servers to easily disable it. Then they could just use a plugin that lets people see their coordinates. The other information on the debug is relatively useless from 1.18 forward because the only other useful data was the light level to make sure mobs didn't spawn. In 1.18, they changed it so mobs only spawned when the light level was 0 which you can easily tell just by looking at it. The gamerule could still allow the F3+*Key* keybinds though because those are actually useful.
It's still good for debugging clientside issues like lag, as well as giving co-ords to friends and doing measurements without spending ages punching blocks and counting.
@@montyfatcat8871 Well, you can copy the coords using the same plugin that displays them. Not sure what you would need to debug clientside on a server that you need the F3 menu for (and not the keybinds that use F3) but feel free to tell me. As for the measurements, I don't see how anything in it besides the pie chart could actually help with that and getting rid of pieray would require getting rid of the pie chart at the minimum anyway. You could probably do length and width using the chunk borders which are a keybind. I don't know how anything is going to help you with the height.
Prety sure a simple mod could easly re-enable it.
@@mik11112 Mods cannot override gamerules on servers because the gamerules are serverside and mods on servers can only change things clientside. Otherwise, we would have hacked clients that just automatically made you opped and the owner of the server by pressing a single button. Because that is serverside, hacked clients need to brute force the password to get you opped.
@@Shugunou It's not serverside same as xray. Xray cannot be diabled by a server it can only be obfuscated. Same with this, you can't stop it. All you can do is place w whole bunch of decoys around the world to make it useless.
This is actually scary that a base can be found that easy also good job on 500k subs
They just need to add a server option that completely removes any debug tools and options so people cannot access any of it, including coordinates...
As to not upset some of the more sensitive players that desperately need to know their coords, they should also add a option to display coordinates like in Bedrock but nothing more.
It already exists. It's called reducedDebugInfo. The problem is that modded clients can ignore it with one simple mixin.
@@Brawaru Then it doesnt exist since it doesnt stop people from using it lol
@@vitorvena I mean there's nothing you can do apart from faking entities and such, but this approach also has drawbacks: it won't work with a lot of entities, and it kills performance.
@@Brawaru yeah thats why they need to properly deal with the monster that they created themselves, they need to make a option that completely deletes that functionality from those who wish to prevent the constant info abuse...
On one hand, how did we even get to a point where "should it be possible to disable the DEBUG SCREEN on a multiplayer server" is a question, on the other hand it can trivially be brought back with a clientside mod if server were to send a signal to disable it, so I'm leaning towards the fake tile entities solution
As someone who's familiar with Minecraft's source code, it should be doable with little performance impact, they don't actually need to exist serverside as tile entities, the most computationally intensive part will be picking actually culled coordinates to put the fake tile entities in and aborting them if player were to uncover it, latter of which might be solvable elegantly with a block update hook
If I get my uni stuff done with I might try to take this on
I'm talking about obfuscating a base that uses an enchanting table and an ender chest, not one that uses 50 enchanting tables for decoration, you need only say N~(4, 1) fake tile entities around a player with high render distance
Either way, the problem isn't the pie chart, but the server broadcasting every nearby TE to client in order to render it. Tile entity ESP hacks have existed for years. Any solution to hide or remove the pie chart, especially if a server already bans both pieray and hacks, will fundamentally do nothing to people who want to break the rules
SO CLOSE TO 500K SUBS!!!
Best way to hide your base: Travel out 100.000s to millions of blocks to build your base. I built a base on 2b2t between one million and two million blocks from spawn, came back one year later and it was still ungriefed/undetected. The fastest way to get this far out (if you don't have elytra + fireworks) is actually to mine in a straight line in the nether roof directly below bedrock. The first layers below the bedrock roof are 100 % filled, so you can't fall into any cave there and can essentially afk-mine.
Congrats on 500k 🎊🎊🎉🎉
POV: you're that one person that have seen it but never used it simply because you pressed f3 while sneaking accidently.
Now this is a feature i will use to grief
Keep it, a lot of players use it for usefull stuff like finding forteresses, the portal room ect. Also, finding bases without it is allmost impossible and it would remove a lot of the competitivnes of the game. Another thing is, that while against the rules, I wouldn't be supprised if at least half of the bases that were "found with piray" were actually just found with esp hacks or texture packs. But they can just get away with it by saying "found using piray". Also, if you want to completely stop that, you would have to remove f3, pichart, texture packs, and mods. So I don't think it's a good thing to remove. If you want to fix it tho, I suggest getting a plugin that sends false packets to the client so the client thinks there are chests and shulkers... when there aren't. (mush like anti-Xray plugins)
So just use furnaces and dispensers to store your items? Not too hard. It has been done on most anarchy servers ive been in, and is a cheap and easy way to prevent sloppy storage-esp users and this
And maybe don't use torches just in case lol
Then people would just search for furnaces and dispensers with pieray, both only occur naturally in villages or jungle temples, if the player doesn't see either it becomes pretty obvious what's happening. Storage isn't an issue, people can still use chests for storage, but it's annoying and often hard to remember to always break your block entities as soon as you use them.
@@riverlake4642 pieray doesn't work on furnaces or dispensers. there's no entity attached to them.
Or barrels
@@riverlake4642 yeah, PieRay only works for stuff that has a block entity renderer attached - think smoothly animated blocks like chests or shulkers, or campfires because you can place items on them. Barrels store extra data, but just render as a normal block, so are protected from pieray
Congrats man! You reached 500K well deserved :D
One way you could probably remove Pieray is by requiring the use of a mod that disables it. This would also reduce the number of players as a side effect.
You do realize you can just use another mod that disables the mod required from doing anything?
@@volcanhacks Depends on how intrusive that mod is hehehe
@@Roescoe I can legally refuse to use a super intrusive mod because of the European laws
@@volcanhacks Or you could just refuse. No legality needed.
Mojang should not do anything about this. It would make debugging hard. Server owners should simply configure their anti xray to replace blocks with blocks that appear on pieray if they want to block pieray.
Could you please put an epilepsy warning for parts like 4:36 in the future? It would be much appreciated as parts like that could cause a seizure
the best way to combat this issue would be to make some form on orebfuscator type plugin, making like a grid of random blocks that would appear on the pie ray, essentially rendering the pie useless because it would always be saying that there is a special block nearby
it would be quite performance intensive, but i think we could go the OTHER way, enchanting tables and ender chests for example can be replaced on clientside by obsidian blocks, anvils with iron blocks and chests with planks/wood, shulkers maybe with purpur or concrete and only turn into the real blocks when player is nearby (ex. within 16 blocks)
it would break some chest/hopper systems, but its simple fix by just using barrels
@@arekkrol9758 yeah I'm not surprised if it would but you could use the blocks a lot more sparingly as opposed to orebfuscator which spawn in on every block around you
Perfect timing
Minecraft having this by default is not a big deal since you can access these features with "mods" without causing any suspicious activities on server side. Also having full access to view anything that is sent to your computer is a well known thing on multiplayer games. Like, some random dude can randomly go around and save all of the data it receives from the server and use that data to re-create the world. Which is a well known thing on multiplayer games as I said. Client can be in any form and you cannot have any controll on it.
Actually it can be 'removed' by servers with anti xray plugins etc that basically make it impossible to use properly and you can pretty easily counter it. I explain it in my video that you showed on screen! 3:46
desperately plugging💀
@@fluffles803 desperately hating 💀
Even if they did anything a server called hypixel will stay on 1.8 server side and refuse to move on so they can keep their 1.8 PVP players who refuse to get good all over again even after 7 years
4:40 seizure warning would've been nice.
I mean I wouldn't say this is ruining servers... Anyone who knows how to read the chart probably also knows how to download a hacked client that's as easy as dragging a .jar file into your mods folder and you instantly have x-ray, base finder, free cam, etc, etc
i think pieray is a healthy feature within vanilla, has some very good uses such as for speedrunning, but like other comments suggest an easy way to counter this is by sending random tile entities so that the pieray is always flooded.
MisterEpic 2025 : Trees are ruining minecraft...
Genuine question because I’m having trouble understanding: why are people upset that others are finding ways to to grief and raid, when they specifically chose to join a server where griefing and raiding is allowed? Why not join a server where it’s not allowed, or that has the ability to claim chunks?
Because it is unbalanced and has no counterplay
Unlike real life x raying there's nothing a player can do to counteract besides not playing in the first place
@@pablopinedo2799 how is it unbalanced if everyone has it? If people choose to play anarchy, then they should be on high alert at all times or try to grief others, if not they should play on safer servers
Because this feature wasn't made to be used as a normal gameplay feature. The F-button menus are supposed to be for research and experimentation, not for an advantage in a server. The only exception that is here is coordinates, which were made to be used as a normal gameplay feature. If you want to raid and grief a base in servers, including specific ones like these, then maybe you should actually use effort. Listen to the noises in-game around you. Look out for any suspicious unnatural blocks. Also my last point is a bit irrevelant and maybe sounds stupid, but I think there should be a law, with a small fine, that basically is meant to stop cheaters.
Should mojang have a way to disable it on servers? OH MY GOSH YES!! But should you ban people for using vanilla features when what your doing with that feature doesn’t break the rules like for example if griefing is allowed should you penalize the specific methods in which it’s used NO ABSOLUTELY NOT! It creates a way for confusion people to not understand the rules and unfair punishments and regulations!
Minecraft was and will always be a survival game. If you join an SMP, then you’re asking to participate in effectively pvp as well, unless the server states otherwise
Smp is just survival multiplayer. I only expect it to be pvp if they state that 😁👍
me when furnace storage is the new meta
1k subs to go! Nice
Hey! We also had this issue in our lifestealsmp server. It was difficult to fix, I've asked almost anyone but luckily I found this problem that completely breaks pie-ray! It's called Orebfuscator (Anti X-Ray), it's a spigot plugin. It stopped players in my server from abusing the pie to find bases underground.