French Bishops React to Latin Mass Restrictions
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- Опубликовано: 16 окт 2024
- French Bishops React to Latin Mass Restrictions
Michael Lofton covers a CDF survey sent to the French bishops soliciting their feedback on the Traditional Latin Mass. Michael then shows how this feedback impacted Pope Francis' restriction of the Latin Mass with Traditionis Custodes.
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Most of the catholics that I know are at best ambivalent about the lating mass. In a parish nearby a priest came in and changed the mass to the latin rite in 3 out of 4 masses and the congregation got very upset and many of them left and came to my church instead. They felt strongarmed into the TLM and still have some wounds about what happened. The priest was very soon relieved of his duty as pastor. I'm not sure if that was because of complaints by the parishioners or not, but it seemed to wound the congregation deeply.
I guess I'm in the minority of people because I enjoy my norvus ordo mass. Jesus is there and he's all I care about. I haven't ever attended a latin mass, and I hope to do so, but I'm learry because there seem to be so many latin mass snobs out there. I think division is not of God, and I dont want to walk into something that's going to introduce me to the spirit of division, which seems to have taken over TLM.
Was he celebrating the 1962 or the current 1970 Roman Missal in Latin?
I’ve also grown up in a NO mass and love it as well, as do plenty of other people at my parish. Heck, there’s still older folks from the pre-VII days around and they loved the changes to the mass as it allowed them to gain a fuller experience. I have attended a few masses where the priest faces ad orientum and communion is received kneeling, and honestly I did not find it spiritually nourishing. Everything felt more performative to me, as compared to other NO masses I’ve been to where the feeling of community and worship just seemed deeper and more authentic.
Our current priest has slowly been implementing more elements like incense, altar servers walking with candles, Latin chants, and it’s been received very well. There’s also a mix of music options for the different service times, which works for our various groups who have different temperaments but all love the Lord.
Sounds like the priest at your church definitely didn’t understand the congregation’s needs and makeup, which is always sad to hear. It’s very much wounding to have someone from the outside come in, look down on your mass service for being too “irreverent,” and just up and change things. Perhaps if he started with just one TLM service to serve that niche and kept the others the same, things would have progressed more smoothly.
@@raphaelportelinha1738 I'm not really sure this happened a couple of years ago but that's an interesting question.
Shame on the parishioners
Agree fully with you. This insistence on the TLM and too many thinking that it is ‘holier’ than the new order Mass is not of God. These people are, worryingly and perhaps unintentionally, turning a liturgy into an ‘idol’.
Why divide the Church? I received my basic religious training before Vatican II. The churches were full. I grew up in a town of 5000. Heavily Catholic. Two Catholic churches, 8 Masses per Sunday. All Masses were full. After Vatican II, churches started to empty. So empty, that the bishop closed both churches and they built a new church half the size of one. They have one Mass per Sunday now. There recently has been a resurgence of faith in the parishes that were offering Latin Masses. Parishes started to grow. The Latin Masses were attracting young adults. The Vatican squashed the Latin Mass. Why? Why destroy the opportunity to grow the faith with the Mass of our saints? All bishops had to do was start teaching Latin in the seminaries again and teaching the seminarians the Latin Mass. Latin is a dead language. It can not be changed. Satan hates Latin. How many times has the venacular Mass been changed since Vatican II? More than I can remember. When they inserted the peace gesture in the Mass, it interrupted the concentration of the faithful in the preparation of the laity to receive the Holy Eucharist. Yet, the Latin Mass never changes. Pope Francis's edicts are causing, not quieting, the divisions, in the Church. It wasn't necessary to crush the Latin Mass anywhere. I grew up with the Latin/English missile. We were united and the English translation was beautiful. I do not go to the Lantin Mass, simply because it is no longer offered but there is nothing more beautiful on earth than a Latin High Mass with a full chior. As close to heaven as we can get on earth. And why did the Pope choose France? Why not Germany? Why not Italy? Why not Poland? Why not the US? We'll see if the French bishops, in a unified front, stand up and condemn the Christian mockery of the opening ceremonies of the Olympics.
Im a recent revert, I attended the regular sunday mass for a year with my catholic community for youngsters. Last sunday, we had an awful mass with african music, guitars, a bike laid next to the altar for the preacher's homily. No latin mass in my city, today I've started going to the orthodox mass where at least I can worship and have a community.
With all due respect, it is not true that the latin mass has never changed. There were many modifications between the 1960s and the 16th century when it was implemented. There were even greater differences before that when the liturgy had not been standardized for the entire latin church. While I understand the appeal of the pre-Vatican II missal, I think the decline in religion is a broader cultural issue. Even if every single parish were using the old missal, numbers would still be declining. I also suspect that much of the liturgical abuse in the second half of the 20th century has more to do with an increasingly secular culture than changes in the form of the liturgy. I live near several parishes with active and reverent novus ordo masses. The Church is not going to go back to the old missal. I hope for future reforms to improve the rite, but trying to hold on to something secondary, like the form of the mass, is what divides the Body of Christ. Peace
"stiff necked people"
@@noticxever9317whoa, I am an African cradle Catholic. So in your opinion, in Africa, our Holy Masses are not ‘holy’ hence unacceptable to God? Rather offensive attitude to the many African Catholics. Hmmm, you need to have a serious, humble conversation with Jesus about this. Ask Him what He thinks. Does Catholic not mean universal?
@@noticxever9317also ‘awful Mass’? Really?
I attend a Latin Novus ordo and really enjoy it
Me too. My local parish celebrates a Sung Latin Novus Ordo Mass on the 2nd Sunday every month. 😊❤
I know some will agree with what I say, others will disagree; that’s fine. I’m just sharing what’s been on my mind as a layman who is tired of the liturgical war.
To me it seems that if the Church wants to reclaim “trads”, She needs to reclaim the Extraordinary Form. What I mean is that instead of pushing “trads” out of the diocesan parishes into other communities, the Church should make the EF more frequent, perhaps even mandatory for regular diocesan parishes (especially for bishops to celebrate the EF). I agree with the bishops who want to train priests for the EF and not rely on external societies like the FSSP. How can “trads” turn the EF into a sign of resistance when the Church is literally using the same liturgy?
Step 2 is slow (some would say “organic”) development of the EF. I think most “trads” would be happy with keeping the EF but in the vernacular and/or updating the lectionary to be as the OF. A critique I often see from “trads” (Vatican II aside), is that the OF is watered-down or inferior. For example, some prayers were removed or shortened in the OF, and most “trads” don’t see a good reason for that happening. Conversely, most OF folks complain they don’t understand Latin and want the vernacular. This is why I think the Latin Novus Ordo is not the happy middle ground; it’s “watered-down” and “not understandable”. I think the answer is to slowly develop the EF, particularly to be vernacular (although preserve the Latin as a more solemn form) and adopt the OF lectionary. This way there would be a liturgy that is not watered-down (as the “trads” want) but is vernacular (as the OF folks want) and richer in the word of God (which the people need). I think it’s fine to include the universal prayer, the kiss of peace, and lay responses; I think the EF would definitely benefit from these. There shouldn’t be a need to remove prayers (whether in part or total) or remove certain parts of the Mass.
In seminary formation, there should not be this dichotomy between liturgical and theological formations; the two go together. Liturgy is the expression of theology, or rather, theology is the substance, liturgy the accidents.
Additionally, with the amount of technology and easy access to learning, there is no excuse for poor catechesis, poor liturgical knowledge, and a lack of ability to learn Latin at least to the extent of understanding hymns and Mass commons.
Finally, the real issue is that we need to accept whatever liturgy Mother Church gives us (as Michael said, the real issue is a matter of ecclesiology). God did not have to redeem us, found a Church, or give us a liturgy. We are so blessed to have a liturgy, and will we be so ungrateful as to complain about it? (Some may accuse me of complaining, but I think I am merely trying to find a medium where we can all gather as one, unified, beautiful Church and begin healing this war and schism.)
Beautifully said!!
I agree, I am near 60 years old and have the Liturgy wars have been going in real time in my life time. So your statement that some Diocesan priests should be trained to say it and have local Diocesan parishes to celebrate it, which was among the suggestions from the French Bishops. However, this should be done the way Pope Benedict stated when he issued Summorum Pontificum that it can't be used to reject the Roman Rite decreed by Pope Paul VI in the 1970 Missal. So having Diocesan priests in the same parish celebrating both Missals would send a clear signal that one Liturgy is not superior than the other to the parishioners of that local parish. Since Diocesan priests take a vow of Obedience to the Local Bishop and are directly under His Jurisdiction, they are all bound to be present at the Holy Chrism Mass that the Local Diocesan Bishop celebrates during Holy Week and they concelebrate with their Bishop at the Chrism Mass whereby the Bishop consecrates the Oils used for Sacraments and it clearly shows the communion of the priests that have faculties to administer the sacraments in the Diocese.
If the FSSP and ICKSP do not want to work with the Local Bishop, then they can have their oratories. If certain Rad Trad elements with the attitude that the 1970 Roman Missal is defective and should not be attended, then at this point they should just go join the Sedevacantist sects like CMRI, SSPV or SSPX Resistance as they are creating nothing but schism in the Church.
I attend and sing in a Tridentine Mass aproved by our Archdiocese. I really love it and it nourishes my faith. Also, we have a quite good relationship with our Archbishop.
That said, I think the way things are established by Traditiones Custodes create some structural problems. It tends to form separate groups. You won't find a 1962 Missal celebration in your own Parish, so we all have to go to an exclusive chapel. I feel alienated in some way. It's like they don't care much. "Just do your thing over there and don't disturb us".
Moreover, the existence of institutes like FSSP and ICKSP, which celebrate exclusively according to the 1962 Missal, may not ease the "us vs. them" mentality. I understand that they were created mostly to facilitate the return of priests and laity from the SSPX to the Church. However, due to their distance from regular Church activities, they are still very vulnerable to the lefebvrist ideology.
In my humble opinion, what could help achieve the mutual enrichment and maintain unity would be ordering major Parishes and Cathedrals to celebrate just one high Mass according to the 1962 Missal every Sunday and maybe other holy days of obligation.
It would most probably create immediate tensions within the community, but would be very beneficial in the long run. People who like the vetus ordo would stay and participate in their Parish life, being close to the local ordinary and his authority.
Finally, the same priests would celebrate both forms, leading to this mutual enrichment and even possibly future reforms in the liturgy. A same Parish could explore and have space for different charisms. We are all way too segregated and this is causing foolish prejudices to arise among us.
I understand where you're coming from and your suggestions would be optimal if the liety especially the radical traditionalists created by Marshall and Stein would stop being so elitist and divisive. but, unfortunately, if this were enacted these rad-trads would be more emboldened to sow schism and heresy we see it every time stein and Marshall post a video. just read through any comment section of any of their videos.
in my opinion, the best way to create unity is to celebrate the Novus Ordo in its most traditional way. you can see this in one of Lofton's videos. he released it in the last 2-3 weeks. the Latin form of the Novus Ordo is almost indistinguishable from the missal of '62.
@@clarkkent5442 I wasn't even thinking of the radical traditionalists, because they usually go to the SSPX chapel rather than our diocesan Tridentine Mass. Our group is overwhelmingly loyal to Pope Francis and our Archbishop. However, I understand that they promote disunity elsewhere and especially on the internet.
When it comes to the traditional celebration of the Novus Ordo Missæ, it could work in my country if it was one out of many options, but not the only one. It would be too much of a shock here to impose it top-down and take away what people are used to.
Reading all of these texts looking for answers to solve this terrible situation is heartbreaking. Every time we get into this subject I can see how hard it is for everyone. I will read one text, agree, read another text, disagree. The whole world is falling apart and I see a more dire picture and and a bigger picture. Something new on the horizon in relationship to the cleansing of the rampant sin and the forgetfulness of Our Lord Jesus. Holy Holy, Holy Lord God of Hosts, Heaven & Earth are full of Your Glory. Come Lord Jesus, Bright Morning Star. We are to be the sentinels at the gate, awaiting & preparing for the Lord. I don't have answers, I only know, I go to Mass, I give reverence & glory to my Lord present in the Most Blessed Sacrament. I say the angel prayer from Fatima. "Oh Most Holy Trinity, Father, Son & Holy Spirit I adore you profoundly and I offer to you the Body, Blood, Soul, & Divinity of your dearly beloved Son, Jesus Christ present in all the Tabernacles of the world, in reparation for the outrages, sacrileges, and indifference by which HE is offended, and through the infinite merits of HIs most Sacred Heart & the Immaculate Heart of Mary, I beg for the conversion of poor sinners. I ask forgiveness of my own offenses and I give praise, & Thanksgiving for all the gifts the Lord has given me. I go to the NO Mass and my heart is so broken over the condition of the world. The tears of the Immaculate Mary are beyond any tears I can shed. I like the manger scene with the Shepard's and their humility and their prostration with only a lamb to give. I love the 3 wise men, with their camels, and their lofty gifts, as they give homage to the little King. Repent, the Baptist says. The time is coming I believe, that Jesus will not be looking at many of the things that we think are so important, he will be looking at our sorrow and will be calling us to dry our tears. This division will stop one day, we as Catholics & many others will be united. I sense it will not be what we know now, but something much bigger and more glorious than we can imagine. God Bless us all.
I stopped buying baguettes as protest
Thank you for reading the French Bishops' response to the CDF survey. What to do when the flock decides to separate into two?
33:15: I have thought training in house seminarians with aptitude for Latin to be the most effective manner to address these problems for some time. Bringing in "Outside Help" from institutes comes with a whole host of problems, the most underappreciated is their loyalty to their own institute and NOT the diocese. This is how a mentality of a parallel church often sets in, and a Bishop's authority, and often, communion with him, is not seen in the same light as by priests committed to and from the diocese. The best man for the job is the priest who's first loyalty to the diocese, NOT the mass. This may be the one with the least emotional or philosophical interest in doing it but does it as just one other duty given to him by his superiors, and not something they are personally attached to themselves.
Outside of a small group in France and the USA this liturgy war is really completely irrelevant and doesnt come to mind for 99% of the faithful. Speaking for Eastern Europe. We have a sspx here in my country in a basement that maybe 20 people attend and thats basically 3 big families.
Exactly, but that is something that is hard to see if you live in the USA.
The new mass was created as a vatican 2 and therefore was not organic or accidental in nature. The old mass still therefore remains purely as the one true commemoration of the holy sacrifice and cannot be licilty reformed or overridden
Not a parallel church but a divided church with opposing truths
Not contra but one is in a state of dereliction from the other
You're right. There is a tiny picket in the USA who think that speak for the entire Catholic population. Whenever I say anyone to them, they viciously attack and seem totally umwilling to accept change. Thus is a much older popular and the other group are a bit younger and are the type that come onto the parish ls and think that only their way matters.
A good, "meet half way" option would be to permit celebrating the Gregorian mass in Latin on some occasions. This should calm some of the more comfused, though I fear it won't do anything for those who obstinately insist in their error.
Gregorian mass? You can have Gregorian chant in the Novus ordo, what I think you're talking about is the Tridentine mass
@@jeannebouwman1970the chant and the liturgy are both called “Gregorian” because they trace their origin to St. Gregory the Great. I believe the commenter simply means to say “the mass of St. Gregory”.
There's nothing to calm. These people refuse to move on and they are making life difficult for the majority of us.
@@salusindomino forgive me if this is an ignorant question (as I’m not Roman Catholic and don’t pretend to know the facts on the ground), but why isn’t there more celebration of the 1962 missal in the vernacular? Was that not the intention of that edition to begin with? And would that not aid those ignorant of Latin in recovering these lost prayers?
@@salusindominoit is not true that the NO is a quick fix. Please do not adopt the mindset that one Holy Mass is ‘better’, ‘holier’ than other. It is destructive in its divisiveness and just carries an insidious self-righteousness. Also, do you comprehend that expecting Catholics in parts of the world, like Africa and Asia( where Catholicism is growing and thriving most) do learn Latin, which they do not understand is nonsensical and insisting on that is not of God, but human prideful arrogance . Humbly bringing ourselves and participating in the Holy sacrifice of the Holy Mass is what God wants. God is whom we worship, not a the liturgy. Be very careful of creating idols.
“Why is there a craze of young people for the Extraordinary Form?”
Man, there are so many issues on both sides. Upset with this
The one thing that's missing here is sounds like the Bishop didn't take an involved approach to those wanting the TLM they treated them like outsider. You touched on it a bit when you said they just let them do there own thing which was wrong. The Bishops arnt going to confer they did anything wrong in there stewardship but will only respond to the fruits of the absence they maybe see weather intentional or not. It's first child being treated differently now that the new child is here that sometimes in families. I would be interested if people were asked if the Bishop were more involved in the TLM would they participate in Docisian life activities and would integrate more communially. I know in my Parish because the Bishop is involved in the TLM community and attends there mass on speacial occasions there's great integration with NO community and even though there are still those detractors inside the TLM they don't end up driving the whole community away from the Magistrium and The Bishop and swaying people towards divisionbecausethe community wants to be in good standing with the Bishop. If the Bishop were absent like what I imagine most of these Bishops in France were, its naturally gonna create a devide. You can't neglect one kid for the other and wonder why they don't want to participate in activities as a family when asked.
Those adherents of the old mass set themselves up in opposition to the rest of the church in general
Dang the new intro is epci!
In the document, the Bishops said that "Celebrating ad orientem can be an antidote to the risk of clericalism". How?
i think they have a point. In ad orientem, everybody faces Jesus. The priest is not excluded
In Versus Populum, some priests are led to take it as a chance to be in the spotlight.
When the Priest celebrates ad orientem, it is not about the Priest thinking He is the center stage of the Mass/Liturgy, thus the priest falling into clericalism. So ad orientem by the posture reminds the priest he is the celebrant of the Mass and is acting "in persona Christi" but it is Christ who the priest and those at Mass are pointing to. Not sure I said it in the best way possible but here are some comments from Pope Benedict and his Book the Spirit of the Liturgy (2000, p.79-81). Regarding the priest celebrating the Mass "versus populum" Pope Benedict said that this resulted in an unprecedented clericalization, that is the priest became the real point of reference for the entire Liturgy. Everything depends on the priest. A returning to ad orientem Pope Benedict said reminds us to what is essential. Looking at the priest has no importance, what matters is that the priest and all us are looking together at Christ.
God Bless.
@@sanglee6073 I think both approaches are Liturgically correct, but I think it would not be a bad thing to allow priests in the 1970 Missal to use ad orientem as well.
How would you recommend that we “speak up” as you said?
Yes! I'd like to know as well. I love the 1962 Missal (although I'd like it to take on a form I described in another comment here). I don't have social media, nor do I belong to any "trad" community (although I might be joining an FSSP parish in a few weeks, simply because the area is not showing promise of reverent liturgy aside from FSSP. I'm hoping I can make some progress there, but I'm dubious.
One suggestion is when you are among Catholics who celebrate the Mass according to the Roman Missal of 1962, that when you hear some among them say the Mass according to the 1970 Missal is defective is schismatic or some who outright reject Vatican II council. Catholics who make those arguments are the ones who are "weaponizing the Mass" and causing division. When you visit Catholic content creators on youtube and some Trads make those arguments, in charity but forcefully say that is wrong, etc.
this report is very interesting.
Sadly Summorum didnt seem to practicslly permit mutual entichment because it would have allowed for Liturgical licenses. The how to was not laid out by Pope Benedict XVI sadly.
The fact that an organization old as the Catholic church can't figure out a way to administer both masses in such a way to address perceived problems is the biggest outward facing problem with the church. It shows the world we are not compassionate, or focused on bringing people to mass for Christ but are more concerned with litigious thinking and sweeping under the rug any issues raised by the people which may inconvenience the Vatican.
Because the Catholic Church is not a democracy, and the pastorally wise answer to requests or aspirations of the laity or even some priests is very often “no.”
@DakkogiRauru23 it doesn't have to be a democracy but when doors that can be utilized to bring people to the eucharist are closed with seemingly no attempt to fix perceived problems it is concerning and disheartening.
@@westpac6954 Based on the current data, no TLM fan is strongly opposing the schismatics enough to warrant the bishops to believe that the TLM won’t be used against the church.
So it may very well be that if TLMs are increased, it will only result in more people joining sedevacantism.
@DakkogiRauru23 there is always a way. If christ isn't reason enough for compassion and peace between the 2 masses then all we can do do is pray for God's mercy on us and the church.
@@westpac6954 The most important way is for TLM goers to condemn sedevacantism and to fight back against Taylor Marshal and Vigano.
I think there should be a reform of the rite altogether. I do like the OF, but I don’t think it is well implemented. The reverance of the EF and the silence for reflection could enrich the OF. Also, Gregorian chant.
But I have looked at the reasons that led to the reform of the rite of the Mass, and would not like to go back to an EF only.
Unfortunetely, I don’t think that the way the OF is mostly celebrated today is inspiring.
I am quite ambivilent to the use of Latin. I do enjoy the use of the vernacular, but I wonder if having 1 rite, in 1 language, with 1 lectionary throughout the world would not be a way to bring more unity. We live in a world in which travel, sometimes overseas, has become common, and Catholic traveling for leasure, or work, might find it helpful to be able to have Mass in a manner they are familiar with. On the otherhand, many Catholics might be put off by having to adjust to a « dead » language they do not understand.
The Pope is in a difficult situation, and whetever he decides, people will be unhappy with the outcome.
On a sidenote, I live in France, and the Community of Saint Martin which was mentionned, is a fast growing community, popular with young dicerning priests. The formation is 1 year longer than in other communities because of emphasis on the liturgy. This community tends to like using Gregorian chant, and I wish that it were implemented more often because to my ears it really marks that Mass is timeless. The priests in the Community of Saint Martin wear the traditional habit, also something that I appreciate, they look like priests and not MIB. Of course, they are viewed by the most progressives as too traditionalists. I find this community inspiring as they are modern in their use of technology to spread the message of the Gospel, and yet they seek to go back or maintain certain traditions which celebrate the uniqueness and timelessness of the Catholic Church.
>"The Pope is in a difficult situation, and whetever he decides, people will be unhappy with the outcome." TOTALLY!
The Pope has to think of the Church Universal and then balancing everything becomes tricky. In SE Asia we generally do not have the Liberal abuses of the West. There are no altar girls here, we have Eucharistic watchers to ensure the host is consumed at the moment of receiving, NO GUITARS or folk masses. But, on the other hand, pomp and ceremony are not so big here so we do not have Gregorian Chant or smog levels of incense either. Status here is shown less with pageantry and more by the size or number of one's properties! Property ownership is an ipso facto religious duty here across SE Asia! I think it's nuts. People will beggar themselves and go into insane debt to buy property because property and land are what *defines* you here! But it means political leaders do not dress up or have great ceremonies and stuff.... they just steal the money and buy 15+ houses! So there is a cultural difference in regards to what shows status. The West has more of a history of pomp and ceremony.
The Mass here is rather 'Normal OF' just without the 'hippiness' and it works here. Churches really are overflowing. The Pope has to consider how the Mass can be standardised for the world.
It seems in the West there is something of a hunger for incense, Latin, history, traditional forms, etc, etc. (Granted, I am no longer in the West so it's hard for me to say) so I think there is an argument for local Bishops adding in more traditional practises in the local Mass. But attempts to do that here, so I read from locals, backfired badly. It might be that the church is relative newcomer in the East and there is not this history of the Tridentine and the 'old ways' that the West has cultural connection to. I just do not know.
What I am saying, though, is that the decisions the Pope has to make have to consider where the Church us growing and imposing - as opposed to offering - more, shall we say 'pomp and ceremony' would like causes problems in Africa and the East.
Conversely, however, given old school Traditional communities are almost the only areas of growth in the Church in West, I do very much accept your point that the Bishops need to respond to what appears to be growing public sentiment especially when the SSPX is ready to step in!
@@jedipadawan7023 Thank you for your response. It’s good to have the point of view of other fellow Catholics who live elsewhere in the world, and to understand the differences in cultures and sensibilities. The Pope does have a difficult job, and I believe people in the « West » don’t understand enough about how our sensibilities could affect other Catholics around the globe. Thank you for sharing this. I will have to reflect upon your comment.
@@nerdanalog1707 Glad to be of some tiny help.
The bishops don't mention any of their own weak preaching and moral failings that repulse the faithful who in turn pivot to the older form of the liturgy and its priest celebrants who preach with more courage on moral truth.
The questionnaire didn’t ask them to evaluate their own preaching. I think you know that and are being disingenuous.
Can you address what the French bishops found? We see their findings within US so called traditional circles.
For example. Do you think it is acceptable that priests have a couple sign a document before they can be married that they will not go before the diocese tribunal to get an annulment??
Latin is a dead language so there is no necessity to use Latin in our liturgy. What we need is effective catechesis and avoid worldly expression and behavior during the entire mass.
Terrible reasoning for why we shouldn’t use latin