She did. But she also was aware that her persona was created by men to serve men. If she had lived longer, she might have been able to overcome that creation and actually be recognized for her intrinsic qualities, including not just acting but being a woman on her her terms and not be so objectified by men.
Monroe was also a fine actress/comedian and so far ahead of her time on so many levels--especially talking about childhood trauma beck then. I think that's why we still love her--we identify with this--even if subconsciously.
It is vary weird when you think about it. Monroe created her own image and she fought and won (saddle in her last years) power over her own career. She got a contract that gave her more power than any actor or actresses before her. She supported the civil rights movement and could be seen as feminist in her time.
Marylin was a creation of male sex fantasy. Get it? She played that role and she played it well. She was not given the opportunity to break out of that image of herself, created by men, and it created a lot of internal suffering for herself. To call her a fine actress misses the essential point of what Steinem was expressing.
@@LordGreystoke she is wrong. Monroe was vary much involved in making her image. Her problem other than those personal problems, was that the head of Fox hated her and didn't give her projects she wanted. This did not lead to any internal suffering it pissed her off and she fought with the studio. Monroe worked her ass off and put in the time to improve herself as an actor. Steinem comes off like she just wants to crap over Monroe because she was a sex symbol.
Billy Wilder said that she had amazing timing and when she was on she was perfect. The problem at least on some like it hot was that lot was riding on the movie for her as well as him and she didn't trust herself. She always turned to her acting coach which which made Wilder less than happy. Still before she died the two were hoping to work together yet again.
She was a woman who knew exactly what she was doing and when to do it! (Marilyn) beautiful and brains! She knew the game unfortunately her story ended to early and we never seen the ending story lines
She's looking at it very ideologically (just focuses on what feeds her framework (shtick) for everything and everyone). There's a lot missing that could be said. And what Gloria says is ultimately distorted, as with all things looked at through what necessarily is narrow (ideology).
Her comments on female impersonators seems a bit misinformed. Yes Marilyn is impersonated with in the drag community, but so is Judy Garland, Elizabeth Taylor, Julie Andrews, Barbra Streisand, Diana Ross, Mae West, and Marlina Dietrich, a WIDE range of women who each exemplifies how femininity manifests itself in a variety of different ways. Some of these women did manufacture those personas, some of their personalities were plastered onto them by the press, and some of them were more “true” to their real life personality. But why I think that these women are such staples in the drag world (and gay culture in general) is because both there personalities and accomplishments were so captivating, unique, and larger than life.
Wow! This is just...finally! I feel like soo many decades later we still don't understand Marilyn and we continue to exploit her and use her image to reinforce the very things that hurt her soo much in her life. As much attention, obsession, and exploitation i have seen around Marilyn, what i haven't seen is empathy, understanding, and recontextualizing. This was such a nuanced and contextual take on such a misunderstood person, truly refreshing and appreciated.
As far as financial security and being a contract player- at the time she didn't care much. She said it was "considerable: to her. When she did become dissatisfied with it (and her lack of control) she was incredibly pro-active. She formed her own production company, renegotiated her contract and made a great deal of money on projects outside of her home studio. She was victimized and taken advantage of, but she deserves credit for how she handled it. Right before her death she had, again, renegotiated her contract with fox that increased her salary by 5 times. What Steinem says about being rewarded for creating an artificial self- that is true. Norma Jean did not seem to value herself, but she did understand the value of Marilyn Monroe and she fought for it.
Listening to Gloria is like attending a Social Psychology class. Sometimes one wants to go to school but sometimes just not in the mood. The stuff about MM making so little money just seems like things don't change for women.
Clearly right about famous ppl dying young. Every single one I can come up with has som sort of "cult" or following. Jimi Hendrix, River Phoenix, James Dean, Marilyn Monroe, Kurt Cobain, Jim Morrison, Janis Joplin, Amy Winehouse, Stevie Ray Vaughn etc etc All of them has an following that is far greater then their peers that out lived them and I can only come up with one exeption and that is Phil Lynott from Thin Lizzy (Though im sure there are others). Im not sure I agree with the reasoning but clearly she is right about the phenomena. I think the reason is simpler, even if it is somewhat related to her thoughts on the matter. I think the reason is simply "because they where at their prime". There are plenty of artists (of various arts) who have died relatively early (before 60 years of age), but past their prime and they do not garner the same kind of cultlike following. There is clearly exeptions like... Elvis, all of the Beatles, Freddie Mercury comes to mind. They all have cultlike followings and was all rather grownup when they died. Lennon was 40 and Freddie was 45? But they had the followings already before dying, if Im any judge. With Marilyn there is also the "conspiracy" part, fueling the legend.
Everyone loved Marilyn: men, women, children (including myself, then) cats, dogs...Her appeal was fundamental, the character she created (and it WAS a character) fascinating. Of course, sexual appeal was part of it, but there was much more, including the pleasure of watching a skilled performer who, in particular, projected something that was enormously sympathetic. Gloria, you must be less doctrinaire.
⭐️ Thank you Gloria for telling NJ’s perspective, she would’ve 100% agreed with you & THRIVED in the women’s movement - where she would find sisters,mothers, & freedom from her past pain. Marilyn was a work of art -Norma Jeane’s art!!!!! She DIED trying to live as her artistic creation & people watched her demise only caring about their payroll. Someone should’ve given her an art studio, so she could finally separate her human self from her money making cartoon character. she never earned back what sacrificed & it drove her mad when she realized it. She was a HUMAN BEING, not ART. She would be livid for anyone to think otherwise after all these years of dissertation.
Marylin was brave for the times she lived....to admit sexual abuse publicly...and share her self with the entire nation, ...as intimidating that is....not even today is easy to do.....and the 50 s were an old fashioned time.... SHE HAD A COURAGE FEW EVER HAD...no matter what she played out....
Marilyn wasn't given her due respect in life or in death. Even her private journals have been published. They can't hurt her now, but she worked hard at trying to be perfect. Marilyn would be most surprised and pleased at the lasting and unending interest she still conjures.
Connie Francis is a brave courageous woman who , in the late 1960s , payed her own way to travel to Viet Nam to entertain and boost the morale of our real American heroes , or soldiers . While thee , Connie performed the most important concert of all time when she sang God Bless America and 25 thousand soldiers sang along with her . Yes , Connie's concert was a billion times more important than all of the Beatles concerts combined and even more important than Elvis , Aloha From Hawaii .
Gloria is just 8 years younger than Marylin. She talks about M as long if M came up in a whole different time. Both women had Mothers who suffered from mental illness
I used to have respect for Gloria Steinem, until she wrote a support letter for Amber Heard, the biggest abuser who got convicted of lying, abusing and destroying someone else’s life. Here she patronises men and also Marilyn. In the end, I now understand that Gloria is a woman who just lives in her own head, regardless of facts and logic around her.
To go from her attitudes about men and the way they view and use women all the way to a m. Monroe who was used by men. Gloria Steinem is one crazy mixed up woman OR she could be trying to be confusing. Very subtle CIA technique. Just a thought.
Come on, Gloria...Marilyn Monroe possessed a very unique beauty which you purposely avoided to mention and basically wouldn't consider it as a factor in the tragedy of her life. I'm not some tongue wagging man lusting for female sexual beauty. I'm gay and not a female impersonator. You also totally miss the standpoint of female impersonators...they recreate the looks and images of women who were visually stunning much like art and not because they aren't true to themselves as you suggest. Lauren Becall is lovely but she's no stunning work of art. You're a smart woman, Gloria, but you retain some sort of inner barriers that prevent you from speaking on the matters of some women just simply being uniquely beautiful. Many of these super beautiful women experience tragedy...long ago many were victims controlled by men, and this still happens today, even when they're much more aware of such situations and can have greater control. Show business is known to create victims, both women and men...Marilyn Monroe was a true victim, and sadly would have the same chance at that terrible fate today.
Listening to Gloria speak only reminds me of how refreshing it is to hear Camille Paglia, who is no fan of Steinem's and who has not been shy in saying so, speak. Even Steinem's praise of Madonna seems like it was "borrowed" from Paglia, who spent decades hailing her as the harbinger of a new feminism only to fall out with her in the early to mid 2000s, without necessarily understanding why she was so revolutionary in her own right, but also misreading what she's become (Madonna has DEFINITELY embraced the victim mantle over the last couple decades, just listen to her Billboard Woman of the Year speech, in which she even attacks Paglia for critiquing her without mentioning the years CP had promoted her in the late 80s/early 90s)
@@TawdryTempest Do all the women in your world look like Marilyn Monroe or something?! God only knows what you've been drinking to not be able to tell the difference between Marilyn Monroe and most other women. I don't know what to say...it's like you've never even seen Marilyn Monroe or any other women for that matter. ...Cheers!
@@jamestyler7697 Interesting points. Steinem can be cited for posing some of her ideology after others have made theirs public...I can't say she's copying the ideas of others, but at times her information with her own ideas is full of holes and is missing what led her to ever have them. Steinem also seems to have always had a somewhat negative (?) view on women considered extra beautiful, even the women appearing in Playboy magazine didn't escape her criticisms and public dissecting...she was miffed on how some women were simply being worthy of being liked because they were very pretty or beautiful. Exceptional beauty in females kind of snags Steinem for some reason. This is my impression of her. Then Steinem has the gall to act like she knows what gay men are thinking...not likely.
Personally, I like to think Marilyn always knew what she was doing and ultimately got the last laugh. I'm not going to jump on this romantic bandwagon that she was some lost, exploited, fragile casualty of the Hollywood system. Sexy, subtle and business-savvy, or is that giving the Blonde Bombshell too much credit?
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Marilyn was also an artist who worked hard on her craft.
She did. But she also was aware that her persona was created by men to serve men. If she had lived longer, she might have been able to overcome that creation and actually be recognized for her intrinsic qualities, including not just acting but being a woman on her her terms and not be so objectified by men.
Which was what?
Monroe was also a fine actress/comedian and so far ahead of her time on so many levels--especially talking about childhood trauma beck then. I think that's why we still love her--we identify with this--even if subconsciously.
It is vary weird when you think about it. Monroe created her own image and she fought and won (saddle in her last years) power over her own career. She got a contract that gave her more power than any actor or actresses before her. She supported the civil rights movement and could be seen as feminist in her time.
Marylin was a creation of male sex fantasy. Get it? She played that role and she played it well. She was not given the opportunity to break out of that image of herself, created by men, and it created a lot of internal suffering for herself. To call her a fine actress misses the essential point of what Steinem was expressing.
@@stephennootens916Monroe didn’t create her her own image. Her image was created by men to serve men. Try listening to Steinem again.
@@LordGreystoke she is wrong. Monroe was vary much involved in making her image. Her problem other than those personal problems, was that the head of Fox hated her and didn't give her projects she wanted. This did not lead to any internal suffering it pissed her off and she fought with the studio. Monroe worked her ass off and put in the time to improve herself as an actor. Steinem comes off like she just wants to crap over Monroe because she was a sex symbol.
Gloria has a razor sharp understanding of the complexities of women's social and political location. One of my few heroes...
She was also a very good actress.
Billy Wilder said that she had amazing timing and when she was on she was perfect. The problem at least on some like it hot was that lot was riding on the movie for her as well as him and she didn't trust herself. She always turned to her acting coach which which made Wilder less than happy. Still before she died the two were hoping to work together yet again.
She was a woman who knew exactly what she was doing and when to do it! (Marilyn) beautiful and brains! She knew the game unfortunately her story ended to early and we never seen the ending story lines
She's looking at it very ideologically (just focuses on what feeds her framework (shtick) for everything and everyone). There's a lot missing that could be said. And what Gloria says is ultimately distorted, as with all things looked at through what necessarily is narrow (ideology).
Her comments on female impersonators seems a bit misinformed. Yes Marilyn is impersonated with in the drag community, but so is Judy Garland, Elizabeth Taylor, Julie Andrews, Barbra Streisand, Diana Ross, Mae West, and Marlina Dietrich, a WIDE range of women who each exemplifies how femininity manifests itself in a variety of different ways. Some of these women did manufacture those personas, some of their personalities were plastered onto them by the press, and some of them were more “true” to their real life personality. But why I think that these women are such staples in the drag world (and gay culture in general) is because both there personalities and accomplishments were so captivating, unique, and larger than life.
It’s because they were MTFs
They were men! Drag Queens all!! Steinem doesn't know that?!
Wow! This is just...finally! I feel like soo many decades later we still don't understand Marilyn and we continue to exploit her and use her image to reinforce the very things that hurt her soo much in her life. As much attention, obsession, and exploitation i have seen around Marilyn, what i haven't seen is empathy, understanding, and recontextualizing. This was such a nuanced and contextual take on such a misunderstood person, truly refreshing and appreciated.
As far as financial security and being a contract player- at the time she didn't care much. She said it was "considerable: to her. When she did become dissatisfied with it (and her lack of control) she was incredibly pro-active. She formed her own production company, renegotiated her contract and made a great deal of money on projects outside of her home studio. She was victimized and taken advantage of, but she deserves credit for how she handled it. Right before her death she had, again, renegotiated her contract with fox that increased her salary by 5 times. What Steinem says about being rewarded for creating an artificial self- that is true. Norma Jean did not seem to value herself, but she did understand the value of Marilyn Monroe and she fought for it.
Listening to Gloria is like attending a Social Psychology class. Sometimes one wants to go to school but sometimes just not in the mood. The stuff about MM making so little money just seems like things don't change for women.
Clearly right about famous ppl dying young. Every single one I can come up with has som sort of "cult" or following.
Jimi Hendrix, River Phoenix, James Dean, Marilyn Monroe, Kurt Cobain, Jim Morrison, Janis Joplin, Amy Winehouse, Stevie Ray Vaughn etc etc
All of them has an following that is far greater then their peers that out lived them and I can only come up with one exeption and that is Phil Lynott from Thin Lizzy (Though im sure there are others).
Im not sure I agree with the reasoning but clearly she is right about the phenomena.
I think the reason is simpler, even if it is somewhat related to her thoughts on the matter. I think the reason is simply "because they where at their prime".
There are plenty of artists (of various arts) who have died relatively early (before 60 years of age), but past their prime and they do not garner the same kind of cultlike following.
There is clearly exeptions like... Elvis, all of the Beatles, Freddie Mercury comes to mind. They all have cultlike followings and was all rather grownup when they died. Lennon was 40 and Freddie was 45? But they had the followings already before dying, if Im any judge.
With Marilyn there is also the "conspiracy" part, fueling the legend.
I appreciate the insights of Gloria Steinem. All people are products of an era. To understand them you must understand the era.
Wow. She just described my childhood. And so spot on that women today like to think if she were born 40 years later she would have recovered. ❤
Marilyn is the first to the me too movement when hashtags were pound signs. You're reacting to her public, created persona.
She never spoke publicly about her abuse. It was discovered in diaries after her death.
Everyone loved Marilyn: men, women, children (including myself, then) cats, dogs...Her appeal was fundamental, the character she created (and it WAS a character) fascinating. Of course, sexual appeal was part of it, but there was much more, including the pleasure of watching a skilled performer who, in particular, projected something that was enormously sympathetic. Gloria, you must be less doctrinaire.
⭐️ Thank you Gloria for telling NJ’s perspective, she would’ve 100% agreed with you & THRIVED in the women’s movement - where she would find sisters,mothers, & freedom from her past pain. Marilyn was a work of art -Norma Jeane’s art!!!!! She DIED trying to live as her artistic creation & people watched her demise only caring about their payroll. Someone should’ve given her an art studio, so she could finally separate her human self from her money making cartoon character. she never earned back what sacrificed & it drove her mad when she realized it. She was a HUMAN BEING, not ART. She would be livid for anyone to think otherwise after all these years of dissertation.
Thank you Gloria! I love it. Women in drag so true!
Steinem knows as much about gay men as she does about going to the moon.
But she was very inteligent, she was a Big reader ❤❤❤❤❤
Marylin was brave for the times she lived....to admit sexual abuse publicly...and share her self with the entire nation, ...as intimidating that is....not even today is easy to do.....and the 50 s were an old fashioned time....
SHE HAD A COURAGE FEW EVER HAD...no matter what she played out....
She never spoke publicly about sexual abuse.
Marilyn wasn't given her due respect in life or in death. Even her private journals have been published. They can't hurt her now, but she worked hard at trying to be perfect. Marilyn would be most surprised and pleased at the lasting and unending interest she still conjures.
Connie Francis is a brave courageous woman who , in the late 1960s , payed her own way to travel to Viet Nam to entertain and boost the morale of our real American heroes , or soldiers .
While thee , Connie performed the most important concert of all time when she sang God Bless America and 25 thousand soldiers sang along with her .
Yes , Connie's concert was a billion times more important than all of the Beatles concerts combined and even more important than Elvis , Aloha From Hawaii .
she is an icon to deflect from the JFK story. She was made an icon.
Gloria is just 8 years younger than Marylin. She talks about M as long if M came up in a whole different time. Both women had Mothers who suffered from mental illness
Very smart. Thanks for the insights.
Gloria's goin' a l'il over the top here methinks.
That's how I feel about my oldest aunt. Would she ever had my cousins if she had become a child-free feminist?
?????
Gloria's views on Dolly?
She would've become Shelley Winters or Elizabeth Taylor.
But the Kennedys kept her quiet.
I used to have respect for Gloria Steinem, until she wrote a support letter for Amber Heard, the biggest abuser who got convicted of lying, abusing and destroying someone else’s life. Here she patronises men and also Marilyn. In the end, I now understand that Gloria is a woman who just lives in her own head, regardless of facts and logic around her.
To go from her attitudes about men and the way they view and use women all the way to a m. Monroe who was used by men. Gloria Steinem is one crazy mixed up woman OR she could be trying to be confusing. Very subtle CIA technique. Just a thought.
Why docile, obedient, playful, feminine and fit deemed as "child like"?
U r a genius!
No it's the silliness the orittyness Nd and the short death with mess that's it
Sadly she was a foster child and had no family.
Come on, Gloria...Marilyn Monroe possessed a very unique beauty which you purposely avoided to mention and basically wouldn't consider it as a factor in the tragedy of her life. I'm not some tongue wagging man lusting for female sexual beauty. I'm gay and not a female impersonator. You also totally miss the standpoint of female impersonators...they recreate the looks and images of women who were visually stunning much like art and not because they aren't true to themselves as you suggest. Lauren Becall is lovely but she's no stunning work of art. You're a smart woman, Gloria, but you retain some sort of inner barriers that prevent you from speaking on the matters of some women just simply being uniquely beautiful. Many of these super beautiful women experience tragedy...long ago many were victims controlled by men, and this still happens today, even when they're much more aware of such situations and can have greater control. Show business is known to create victims, both women and men...Marilyn Monroe was a true victim, and sadly would have the same chance at that terrible fate today.
A truly agree with u.
Gloria missed the mark !
What was so unique about Marilyn's beauty?
You've drunk the Kool-Aid.
Listening to Gloria speak only reminds me of how refreshing it is to hear Camille Paglia, who is no fan of Steinem's and who has not been shy in saying so, speak. Even Steinem's praise of Madonna seems like it was "borrowed" from Paglia, who spent decades hailing her as the harbinger of a new feminism only to fall out with her in the early to mid 2000s, without necessarily understanding why she was so revolutionary in her own right, but also misreading what she's become (Madonna has DEFINITELY embraced the victim mantle over the last couple decades, just listen to her Billboard Woman of the Year speech, in which she even attacks Paglia for critiquing her without mentioning the years CP had promoted her in the late 80s/early 90s)
@@TawdryTempest Do all the women in your world look like Marilyn Monroe or something?! God only knows what you've been drinking to not be able to tell the difference between Marilyn Monroe and most other women. I don't know what to say...it's like you've never even seen Marilyn Monroe or any other women for that matter. ...Cheers!
@@jamestyler7697 Interesting points. Steinem can be cited for posing some of her ideology after others have made theirs public...I can't say she's copying the ideas of others, but at times her information with her own ideas is full of holes and is missing what led her to ever have them. Steinem also seems to have always had a somewhat negative (?) view on women considered extra beautiful, even the women appearing in Playboy magazine didn't escape her criticisms and public dissecting...she was miffed on how some women were simply being worthy of being liked because they were very pretty or beautiful. Exceptional beauty in females kind of snags Steinem for some reason. This is my impression of her. Then Steinem has the gall to act like she knows what gay men are thinking...not likely.
Similar things happened to Pam Anderson
U are a blessed angel!!!!! Helping humans everyday
Social modeling
I love her lying. She says Marilyn made only 3k a film and made 'almost nothing'. She was one of the highest paid actors at the time
She made nothing compared to the male actors of her stature
Feminism is the opposition to Fascism
🌹🌹🙏💌+🧿
Feminism🌹🙏💌+🧿
Personally, I like to think Marilyn always knew what she was doing and ultimately got the last laugh. I'm not going to jump on this romantic bandwagon that she was some lost, exploited, fragile casualty of the Hollywood system. Sexy, subtle and business-savvy, or is that giving the Blonde Bombshell too much credit?
Gloria has always been an oddball. She's clueless but here's a hint; Monroe was attractive, happy, and something Gloria has never been, nice.
Happy people don't commit suicide.
If Marilyn was happy, then she was murdered and didn't commit suicide.
Gloria was and is gorgeous and a style icon. Short middle part with the aviators, a look.
@@jeffworob3453 she said she was not happy, but she was murdered
Gloria was always nuts.