On a Side Note | Athenian Democracy
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- Опубликовано: 7 июл 2024
- Athens is by far most well known for its innovative democratic government. In this video we see how the Athens evolved from an oligarchy to tyrannies to eventually the radical democracy of infamy. We also explore how this system's faults lead to the city state's eventually defeat by Philip II of Macedon.
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Credit for music:
/ charlatanalley
Tune in next time for the next instalment of the Philip II of Macedon series!
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The Draconian criminal laws were still an improvement over the ones before which mostly consisted of self-administered justice and revenge killings.
Grass is always greener amirite
It is not 10 demes, but 10 phyles. There were 139 demes.
awesome addition to the series so far
Great content! Can't wait to see you and your channel grow with every video. Keep on teaching and I'll be here learning, much love from California!
Cheers dude! I appreciate the love. Hopefully circumstance now allows me to churn out a few more videos at a faster pace than before so I can deliver a bit more to you guys.
WOW! Didn't know you responded, haha I'm still here on Christmas morning rewatching your videos, and I've seen your channel growing, congratulations!
Another Banger 🔥🔥🔥🔥💯💯
Glad to see this channel is still active. Keep up the good work!
Thanks, sorry it's so late but I couldn't work on it for about two week because I was on the other side of the country and this video turned out much longer than I thought
Cheers for that! In the same vein, any criticism would be great as honestly I want to improve with every video
Hmmm, I guess my only nitpick regards the assassination of Hipparchus. I thought that was not a move by Hippias, but actually by a conspiracy led by two lovers who were hoping to kill both of the tyrants as an act of vengeance. If you have read something different let me know, my only knowledge of this period of Athenian history comes from Persian Fire by Tom Holland, but I am aware he does tend to dramatize things from time to time, as well as just straight up reporting incorrect facts. Otherwise you are doing a great job in terms of making unique visuals, the audio is fairly solid (especially with some of the longer Greek words), and the large swaths of information do seem to be very accurate. I guess having some sort of a timeline at the end of each Phillip video may help. I understand not having one here, since you are trying to cover a large scope of politics and government that don't all have linear progressions, but as the main series begins to cover more ground, it may be easier to visualize just how quickly things are happening at the end of each video.
Yeah I'm not too sure on the lover thing, since it sounds like the typical dramatisation by ancient writers. My main sources were Plutarch's lives, the two books on Philip II by Ian Worthington and a number of online resources.
As for your date thing, I try to keep the date in the bottom left corner whenever I use the map in the main series. I try to specify the year and the rough season it happened. I will however sometimes get exact dates for some events if it is important. But I'll also try to start each episode with the year, because as you said the further we go with the story (Alexander, The Diadochi, Pyrrhus) the more important that'll be.
Very clear and succinct summary. Good video.
I love your videos. thank you for the amazing content.
Thanks! The next Philip episode and On a Side Note should be coming in the next few weeks.
Thank you for your great work! Your channel became one of the very few history ones on YT that I watch and I am very glad to see you are still making new videos. Keep up the amazing work :)
You're too kind. But seriously watch Historia Civilis, I took a lot of inspiration from him.
Thank you for the recommendation. I came across your channel on /badhistory and I found it to be a breath of fresh air after all the pop-history nonsense being spewed these days. I will definitely check HC out.
I really enjoy your videos. Well explained, in good depth and nicelly animated and narrated. Well done sir.
Very kind words, thanks.
How have I not heard of this channel before?!
I'm doing this in homeschool thank you for this video and your channel!
Thanks but this video has a number of issues with it. If you have any specific questions feel free to shoot either here or on the discord
Me too
Continue Philip man
You mispronounced most of the Greek words, but I don't blame you· it's difficult for people who don't speak Greek to know how to pronounce these words... Despite that, I must admit that you did a very good job providing a summary of the ancient Athenian democracy.
As for Socrates, we don't know who he really was and which were his exact ideas· that's the so-called ''Socratic problem'' - I won't get into it, just look the wikipedia article about it. I only have to say that most scholars tend to adopt Plato's view.
Anyway, keep up the good work. Greetings from Athens.
Thanks for that, butchering Greek seems to be my forte. I am trying to get better though. Appreciate that you enjoyed it at least.
@@ArchaiaHistoria It's ok :) As I said, it's difficult to speak a foreign language with the right pronunciation... Even I can't speak English correctly, despite the fact that everyday I listen to people who speak English.
Anyway, your videos are very, very good. Thank you for creating them.
3:52 Probably the only time in history Hippies were high class.
"Get a haircut, Hippeis!" XD
Really mate how do you not have like waay more views? These videos are amazing, kudos! I really do believe with the rise of other quality historical channels such as Historia Civilis, K&Gs, HistoryMarche etc. yours will follow suit. And when it does I'll be happy to translate them into greek as it's much better than what people are taught in schools there!
P.S Knowing that you're Australian I don't see any reason for using the US flag for the comment on modern democracies. Australia might nominally have a monarch as its head, but in my experience it's a much more democratic and progressive country!
Thanks for that, that whole thing would actually be amazing. Feel free to PM on RUclips or send me an email on archaiaistoriachannel@gmail.com I’d love to stay in contact.
Hey i learned that in 514 bce Hipparchus one of the brothers was assassinated by the tyrannicides harmodios and arastogeiton for a personal injury to the lovers and then his brother had turned « tyrannical » in the modern sense of the word, did I miss something? Although Athenians started loving the tyrannicides after they had actually been freed by the Spartans. i love your videos and your work I’ve learned so much through you tyvm.
three spartan dislikes
8
"Minor criminals deserved the death penalty and I can't think of anything worse so major crimes can get it too" lol Drakon is so based
12:33 Socrates may have been a citizen of the world. But Diogenes coined the term cosmopolitan "citizen of the cosmos"
Speaking about Athenes 5th. C, it seems misguided to ask "...shouldn't those who have studied those fields PROFESSIONALLY, who..." -- that is, unless you want to commend sophist education.
But first, which one of the sophists would you choose yourself? And second, there would seem to be a problem, if you had hoped to be able to take better decissions by following anyone of them. In fact, perhaps a still standing problem for all democracies is that we are still lacking a full refutation of the main sophistic ideas.
For those who wish to know what that scoundrel Socrates was all about, I suggest I.F. Stone's, "The Trial of Socrates". You will find out what the real story of this character, and his apologist Plato were all about. Not the anti democratic slant of this video.
not one mention of pericles
Boule is the Greek word for parliament so you could just use that
Yeah I’m better with my Greek now I hope
One of the old jokes running around the Aegean was that only under Athenian democracy was fishmongering able to reach its highest skill :D
I'm going to quote Phoebe Buffay You American's always butcher the French language.
Now change Americans to English and French to Greek. LOL
Splendid work though!!!
I’m an Aussie bloke but I get you. Getting the right pronunciation is difficult since I usually need to look at it phonetically (I don’t speak Greek) then play it through google translate (which is pretty bad). So that’s why a number of my pronunciations can be pretty off. I’m guessing you speak Greek yourself, so any tips or suggestions on my speaking?
No need to apologize mate!!! I just wanted to get a laugh out of all the "friends" fans out there You are producing a high quality product here. Keep it up! Whenever you have a problem with a word just send a pm and I will help as much as I can.
Interesting...you used a 49 star U.S. flag @14:57. Poor Hawaii.
They know what they did!
7:46 Dafuq?
anyone in mr lee lmao
Besst gang shit
English South African?
Close but no cigar
Huge correction: Socrates was not sentenced to death. He was sentenced with exile from the city. He chose not to leave and in his last decision decided to commit suicide, against the wishes and protests of his disciples to reconsider. You also left out why the Athenians thought he was corrupting the youth. They accused him of questioning the gods. It was all about their religious sensitivities in the face of the Socratic method that had the potential to be rather blunt and subversive.
No need for the correction, the video is correct. Socrates was sentenced to death, not exile.
Socrates was put on trial and sentenced to death, because he was questioning the political and religious system of ancient Athens - we can assume this by the way he's portrayed in Plato's, Xenophon's and Aristophanes' writings (in ancient Athens, politics and religion were close connected - look at the political consequences when the Herms (Ἑρμαῖ) were found mutilated, just before the Sicilian expedition) . According to both accounts of Plato and Xenophon, Crito (another of Socrates' students) tried to convince him to escape, but Socrates refused to do it. There are many interpretations on why he stayed and chose to die, but I won't get into them...
I'll give you a link about Socrates' death:
www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/socrates.htm
and another one about the Herms:
www.britannica.com/topic/herm
We should also consider the political background in 399 BC! Athens was traumatized because of its defeat by the Spartans and the regime of the 30 tyrrants imposed by them. This oligarchic regime lasted for one year but committed atrocities against the democratic citizens! Some of Socrates' followers had supported the oligarchy.
Why don't you read Plato's own rendition and eye witness account of Socrates' trial? All the answers are in there. It translated to English, you know :-)
4:25 pronounced ‘Boo-Lay’
Actually, it's pronounced ''vou-lee'' (΄΄βουλή΄΄), both in ancient and modern Greek. In ancient Greek the plural form is ''vou-le'' (΄΄βουλαί΄΄) and in modern Greek is ''vou-les'' (΄΄βουλές΄΄). You can listen to the pronunciation here:
forvo.com/word/βουλή/
(the second one by tsilis)
Also, the word ΄΄βουλή΄΄ can mean 3 things in Greek:
1. the parliamentary assembly ( the institution itself)
2. the building in which this assembly takes place
3. will, determination
A more detailed etymology can be found in these 2 sites:
stephanus.tlg.uci.edu/cunliffe/#eid=1806&context=lsj
www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0058:entry=boulh/
@@taftaf9508 so the word volition has ethnological roots in Βουλή?! Wow!
If my class see's this video...
I LOVE RITZ
Puttin’ on the Ritz
Socrates got it right. Democracy as it is then and today is such a laughable idea. As Socrates said. Why would you want to place the authority over governmental, political, economical, and also military affairs of the state in the hands of an 'uneducated' majority. I would rather propose a system of government in which the experts are the ones whose in charge over those affairs, and they would then be oversee by the appointed other experts.
The Sicilian campaign was geopolitically and militarily sound imo it was poorly executed. Alcibiades had championed it and nicias had opposed it athens had mad both of them and other guy generals of the expedition but Alcibiades was recalled to face trial over some religious bs at the start (he deserted to the Spartans) and nicias who had opposed the exposition and was an incompetent general fcked it up.
Thumbed up because of the detailed history provided but I think it's too pro-Socrates, i.e. pro-fascist. Let's not forget that Socrates was suspect of aiding Sparta and his whole school was reactionary, posh and authoritarian.
As some professor of philosophy said: Greek phylosophy ended with the pre-socratics.
There's always the question of how much is Socrates and how much Plato, but it's still the source of some real doozies when it comes to lingering western cultural baggage. The philosopher-kings inspired elitism, the ridiculous epistemology that "proves" all knowledge is a priori thus supporting ideal forms, and of course, the Atlantis nutjobs. I could go on, but it only gets more obscure and depressing.
@@archenema6792 - You're right except for "the Atlantis nutjobs": that part is almost exclusively the fault of Ignatius Donelly, a weird author from the 19th century USA who just reinvented Atlantis without almost any relation to what Plato says.
Plato's narration on Atlantis is at least plausible when we consider the context of the Late Bronze Age Collapse and the existence of a very comparable civilization in what is now Portugal. The very mystery of how Mycenaean Greece collapsed (who destroyed all those cities and why Athens was spared), coincidentally in time with the Meswesh (Amazigh, Berber) invasion of Lower Egypt fits way too well with what Plato says about Western peoples threatening the Eastern Mediterranean and being defeated by Athens, that's also the date of the silting of the 10 km long "marine branch" that joined Castro do Zambujal (Torres Vedras, Portugal) to the Ocean (10km = 50 stadia, the length that Plato attributes to the Atlantis canal), maybe because of a tsunami of the kind we know have happened in the are in other periods, including the historical Great Lisbon Earthquake. Of course it was not 9000 years befor Plato but rather some 7-8 centuries before his era, but a profound Dark Age happened in between, what explains Greek forgetfulness (but apparently not that of more literate and less discontinued Egyptian historiography, if we are to more or less give credence to Plato on that).
Actually most modern Platonics tend to argue that Plato was trying to tell a moralizing story but there's nothing moralizing in the narration except two bits: one that claims that the Atlanteans had become greedy and the other that could appeal to Athenian patriotism by attributing them all the glory. Dark Ages' Athens was unscathed by destruction, unlike the rest of Mycenaean Greece, and we now know that it was quite the naval power already in the Bronze Age, with great presence in post-Minoan Crete (the Theseus' legend may have a core of truth somehow). It is however surprising that they only sent (per Homer) a token force to Troy, much smaller than would have corresponded to such a major Greek polity, particularly a naval-oriented one; clearly they didn't want to annoy Mycenae but they didn't want to serve its megalomaniac plans either. If there's a moral in the whole Bronze Age Collapse story as I understand it, it'd be not to set all the world on fire, to keep some prudence and common sense, which may be is what the Athenians, but not the Achaeans, did.
It's pretty clear when Plato's Republic was written--the primary time people think of--that this system you describe was not in use. Rather, there was some kind of ruling class the wielded all the power worth worrying about who were paid for their work, and they also speak of kings as most typically being in power but without specifically saying Athens had a king. The ruling class were described as typically being useless or corrupt, giving goodies to their friends and bad stuff to their enemies--still better than today. They do imply any adult male in general could nominate themselves for some kind of selection process into the ruling class--not casting of dice--but I don't believe they ever specify whether it was done democratically. It certainly was never described as any kind of direct democracy as your hack history teachers will tell you.
Democracy was a bad idea then as it is now. We really need something new.
Athens is Macedonisky hahaha aha joke, guys :)
I had one of them saying Macedonia wasn't Greek because the other Greeks fought against them... 😂😂😂
gross man not cool