Hey guys, some people have commented that I left out Celestial mining on Therium, so here are some findings on that - For comparison's sake 2 Prisms (250 lum cost) on therium is equal to 5 bobs/imps (250 lum cost). So you will essentially not grow your therium patch if you put 2 prisms on it. So the celestials actually have fewer options when it comes to Therium mining, it's either 1 prism and harvest too little, or 2 prisms and harvest too much! If you can, you want to have 1 prism on each patch and spread yourself out to keep the enrichment going but obviously depending on map, that can be difficult early game and most players will put both prisms on their main's therium. Once you can get on the natural therium I recommend moving one of your prisms over there, or possibly having 3 prisms and bouncing one back and forth as a patch begins to get mined out.
With only one minute to measure each value and measuring workers collectivelly and not individually, some of your numbers were off. I did very careful, repeated measurements for several minutes each of different income rates and here is some very useful info (the numbers are exact): So the 150/minute luminite tower and the 90/minute therium tower are perfectly correct. VAN/INF luminite mining rates: On the two close luminite spots, the first four workers bring 72/minute each. The last two bring a pathetic 14/minute each. On the far luminite spots, the first four workers bring 50/min each (150 over 3 minutes, 50 itself is not divisible by 4), the last two bring 48/min each, virtually perfectly overlapping with the other four. This gives us 516/min for suboptimal 10 worker mining, 584/min for optimized 10 worker mining and 612/min for full 12 worker saturation. So it's not a 28/min loss, but rather a whopping 68/min. Or a 11.6% income loss as far as that base is concerned. Now, if you have two bases and 18 workers for example, 8 and 10, the 10 being suboptimally placed will only take 6.3% of your income. Still substantial, but not the most relevant in lower ranks. Now, if you micro your workers on a base properly, you should truely leave two last two spots vacant and saturate other bases first, it's so much better. This may sound gloomy and difficult, but bear in mind how quickly bases are saturated; once you hit 12 on your two or three bases, it doesn't matter. Worth noting albeit obvious that on 10 unoptimized workers the average mining rate is 5.16, on 10 optimized workers - 58.4, and on 12 workers - 51. VAN/INF therium mining rates: The mining operation itself takes exactly 6 seconds on a normal patch and 3 seconds on an enriched node. From there, trip lengths matter hugely. On the slightly closer patches next to your starting base your workers should gather about 32.5 therium/minute from normal patches and 46.7/minute from enriched ones. However, if you build a drop-off point right next to the patches, every worker will mine (at least at first) 50/minute normal and 100/minute enriched. CEL mining rates are very simple; prism is 75 luminite/min, collection array is 300 luminite/min. So a fully saturated luminite mine is 600/min, virtually on par with the others. Prisms take 10 seconds to fully consume a normal patch and 5 for an enriched one. This would make it a 150 normal or 300 enriched therium/min, but it takes random amounts of time floating and retargeting. About 142/min normal and 242/min enriched (with an adjacent drop-off point ofc for celestials). Important to note is that due to situational therium mining rates, there is no fixed number of workers that will harvest therium sustainably; after the bug is fixed, new therium will spawn normal, so having sustainable mining past your initial base is a good idea. A therium node spawns one patch every 8 seconds, and a full therium node enriches a patch every 8 seconds, Enriched or not, every patch contains 25 therium. This means that a node spawns 187.5 therium a minute. So 5 VAN/INF workers in your initial base will still be sustainable while the patches are normal. When the node enriches, 3 workers. If you are very close to an enriched node, even two workers will start mining it out. With an adjacent drop-off point, CEL can only be sustainable with 1 prism on normal patches.
I was planning on looking up a good resource for Stormgate, err…resources. Glad to have had this recommended to me! Thank you for the great and thorough content.
Great info. Sounds like something they should just patch out for ease of use. If at 8 works, once 9 & 10 pop out, they just default to take the outer lanes vs going to the inner lanes first.
True. Probably only viable if you have the extra APM to spare, and it's not going to be the difference between a win and a loss realistically. They might just change the mining order at some point in a patch.
In 2012 I thought the same about FlaSh manually keeping workers on closer patches in SC2, and nowadays every joe on the ladder above diamond does this. You don't do it after like 2 minutes. But it is a little boost that's pretty much free at the very start of the game. Unless you want to climb the ladder through, don't bother. And even then, it's not worth doing unless you can do it without forgetting something else.
Hey Ghost! Fairly new to the Channel but been keeping up with your recent content, and i'm loving it! Could you please make an Opener Or Build(s) Guide to CELESTIALS PLEASE! I know you've covered Tournament Gameplay but I haven't seen other RUclipsrs make an IN-DEPTH Guide for Celestials! Would love to see it and hear your perspective ! Thanks friend! Keep up the great work!
Hey Justin, thanks for the kind words, truly appreciated. I'm definitely planning to make some build guides for all-three races, some of it may be a little closer to the 13th (when a bunch of new players will undoubtedly be joining us!) so stay tuned for more.
So its: 50,3 Luminite/Minute per Worker; or 604/Min with 12 workers 30 Therium/Minute per worker (60 on an enriched note?) and gets higher if you have an scrapyard for example next to it
Having 12 miners is more optimal than having 10 with the extra two on outer nodes. This is a complete non-issue as APM should be used elsewhere. Also, something that was not noted about construction. The quick build system will pull idle workers first THEN closest. Meaning if you have an idle worker cross-map then it will travel all the way back in order to build instead of grabbing the closest. So keep an eye out for idle workers if using the quick-build hotkeys. Hopefully this will get addressed with a max range cap on idle workers from construction area.
Thanks for the detailed guide! Is there any optimal way of mining therium or does it simply depend on the situation? 10 Workers on Luminite seems to be the strategy the pros go for so is there a Therium equivalent?
There really is no set rule, it's totally dependant on what build you're doing and therefore, how much therium you need. However in terms of mining the maximum you really want is 4/5 bobs/imps or 2 prisms at a maximum, unless you want to get mined out real fast!
Celestial therium mining isnt 4 prisms! You will drain a node dry very quickly if you put 4 on there. Also for mining rate testing a guy by the name of "Veritas" was doing 20+ min testing the other night, talking about it in the celestial channel of the Frostgiant discord. Swing by some time, you might be able to get good data
Thanks dude I'll have a look. Check my pinned comment about celestial mining rates for Therium, I probably should have mentioned that in the video, that's my bad.
I’m trying to love the game, but struggling. I love how slow battles are, which gives me a chance to micro and compete. At the same time, I had how slow the games feel lol. It almost feels like that game that should have released before sc2. Just my opinion but I’ll try and keep playing to see if it eventually hooks me
The question is, why the hell you have to do that optimisation on luminite. I mean, it has been in beta for a long time, it was so hard to update the pathing, so those 2 workers aren't wasting time? Like why do I need to bother with the optimisation in the first place? They removed macro on other things, but introduced that crap. For what exactly? JFC, the more stuff I see about Stormgate, the more I like SC2 (I liked it since SC1 launch).
SC2 has the exact same thing with close and far mineral patches. You can micro your workers to stack optimally, and they usually won’t by default. But just like in StarCraft it’s only really gonna matter at the highest level. I liked that part of StarCraft and I’m glad to see it in stormgate too
Good call, I probably should have included that. Here's a short explanation from my testing so far. For comparison's sake 2 Prisms (250 lum cost) on therium is equal to 5 bobs/imps (250 lum cost). So you will essentially not grow your therium patch if you put 2 prisms on it. So the celestials actually have fewer options when it comes to Therium mining, it's either 1 prism and harvest too little, or 2 prisms and harvest too much! If you can, you want to have 1 prism on each patch and spread yourself out to keep the enrichment going but obviously depending on map, that can be difficult early game and most players will put both prisms on their main's therium. Once you can get on the natural therium I recommend moving one of your prisms over there, or possibly having 3 prisms and bouncing one back and forth as a patch begins to get mined out.
That luminite mining trick really should be done automatically by the ai, let's hope someday the team will swap the lanes priority when the work charge lowers a bit
Hey guys, some people have commented that I left out Celestial mining on Therium, so here are some findings on that -
For comparison's sake 2 Prisms (250 lum cost) on therium is equal to 5 bobs/imps (250 lum cost). So you will essentially not grow your therium patch if you put 2 prisms on it. So the celestials actually have fewer options when it comes to Therium mining, it's either 1 prism and harvest too little, or 2 prisms and harvest too much! If you can, you want to have 1 prism on each patch and spread yourself out to keep the enrichment going but obviously depending on map, that can be difficult early game and most players will put both prisms on their main's therium.
Once you can get on the natural therium I recommend moving one of your prisms over there, or possibly having 3 prisms and bouncing one back and forth as a patch begins to get mined out.
thanks, that is exactly what I do basically. I get 2 prisms on it, then once I take the natural I move 1 over. Then I bounce that one back and forth.
This feels… clunky
With only one minute to measure each value and measuring workers collectivelly and not individually, some of your numbers were off. I did very careful, repeated measurements for several minutes each of different income rates and here is some very useful info (the numbers are exact):
So the 150/minute luminite tower and the 90/minute therium tower are perfectly correct.
VAN/INF luminite mining rates:
On the two close luminite spots, the first four workers bring 72/minute each. The last two bring a pathetic 14/minute each.
On the far luminite spots, the first four workers bring 50/min each (150 over 3 minutes, 50 itself is not divisible by 4), the last two bring 48/min each, virtually perfectly overlapping with the other four.
This gives us 516/min for suboptimal 10 worker mining, 584/min for optimized 10 worker mining and 612/min for full 12 worker saturation. So it's not a 28/min loss, but rather a whopping 68/min. Or a 11.6% income loss as far as that base is concerned. Now, if you have two bases and 18 workers for example, 8 and 10, the 10 being suboptimally placed will only take 6.3% of your income. Still substantial, but not the most relevant in lower ranks. Now, if you micro your workers on a base properly, you should truely leave two last two spots vacant and saturate other bases first, it's so much better.
This may sound gloomy and difficult, but bear in mind how quickly bases are saturated; once you hit 12 on your two or three bases, it doesn't matter.
Worth noting albeit obvious that on 10 unoptimized workers the average mining rate is 5.16, on 10 optimized workers - 58.4, and on 12 workers - 51.
VAN/INF therium mining rates:
The mining operation itself takes exactly 6 seconds on a normal patch and 3 seconds on an enriched node. From there, trip lengths matter hugely. On the slightly closer patches next to your starting base your workers should gather about 32.5 therium/minute from normal patches and 46.7/minute from enriched ones. However, if you build a drop-off point right next to the patches, every worker will mine (at least at first) 50/minute normal and 100/minute enriched.
CEL mining rates are very simple; prism is 75 luminite/min, collection array is 300 luminite/min. So a fully saturated luminite mine is 600/min, virtually on par with the others. Prisms take 10 seconds to fully consume a normal patch and 5 for an enriched one. This would make it a 150 normal or 300 enriched therium/min, but it takes random amounts of time floating and retargeting. About 142/min normal and 242/min enriched (with an adjacent drop-off point ofc for celestials).
Important to note is that due to situational therium mining rates, there is no fixed number of workers that will harvest therium sustainably; after the bug is fixed, new therium will spawn normal, so having sustainable mining past your initial base is a good idea.
A therium node spawns one patch every 8 seconds, and a full therium node enriches a patch every 8 seconds, Enriched or not, every patch contains 25 therium. This means that a node spawns 187.5 therium a minute. So 5 VAN/INF workers in your initial base will still be sustainable while the patches are normal. When the node enriches, 3 workers. If you are very close to an enriched node, even two workers will start mining it out. With an adjacent drop-off point, CEL can only be sustainable with 1 prism on normal patches.
I was planning on looking up a good resource for Stormgate, err…resources. Glad to have had this recommended to me! Thank you for the great and thorough content.
Very thorough and eye opening to better understand the game and improve at it. Love it!
learned so much in one video. thx
Such a great video!! Required reading for anyone getting into stormgate IMO
Great info. Sounds like something they should just patch out for ease of use. If at 8 works, once 9 & 10 pop out, they just default to take the outer lanes vs going to the inner lanes first.
The luminite mining trick is cute on paper but nothing more than a frustrating chore ingame. Thanks for the vid
True. Probably only viable if you have the extra APM to spare, and it's not going to be the difference between a win and a loss realistically. They might just change the mining order at some point in a patch.
In 2012 I thought the same about FlaSh manually keeping workers on closer patches in SC2, and nowadays every joe on the ladder above diamond does this.
You don't do it after like 2 minutes. But it is a little boost that's pretty much free at the very start of the game.
Unless you want to climb the ladder through, don't bother. And even then, it's not worth doing unless you can do it without forgetting something else.
Hey Ghost! Fairly new to the Channel but been keeping up with your recent content, and i'm loving it! Could you please make an Opener Or Build(s) Guide to CELESTIALS PLEASE! I know you've covered Tournament Gameplay but I haven't seen other RUclipsrs make an IN-DEPTH Guide for Celestials! Would love to see it and hear your perspective ! Thanks friend! Keep up the great work!
Hey Justin, thanks for the kind words, truly appreciated.
I'm definitely planning to make some build guides for all-three races, some of it may be a little closer to the 13th (when a bunch of new players will undoubtedly be joining us!) so stay tuned for more.
great content man :)
love the channel
Great vid
What about celestial theriom mining ?
great video!
So its:
50,3 Luminite/Minute per Worker; or 604/Min with 12 workers
30 Therium/Minute per worker (60 on an enriched note?) and gets higher if you have an scrapyard for example next to it
Good to know about the mining, thank you. I imagine this will get patched, so that the ai will allocate the miners more efficiantly.
Having 12 miners is more optimal than having 10 with the extra two on outer nodes. This is a complete non-issue as APM should be used elsewhere.
Also, something that was not noted about construction. The quick build system will pull idle workers first THEN closest. Meaning if you have an idle worker cross-map then it will travel all the way back in order to build instead of grabbing the closest. So keep an eye out for idle workers if using the quick-build hotkeys. Hopefully this will get addressed with a max range cap on idle workers from construction area.
Something I do not understand, is there a limit on the amount of Collection arrays you can have ?
Thanks for the detailed guide! Is there any optimal way of mining therium or does it simply depend on the situation? 10 Workers on Luminite seems to be the strategy the pros go for so is there a Therium equivalent?
There really is no set rule, it's totally dependant on what build you're doing and therefore, how much therium you need. However in terms of mining the maximum you really want is 4/5 bobs/imps or 2 prisms at a maximum, unless you want to get mined out real fast!
@@Stormgate_Central Thanks!
Celestial therium mining isnt 4 prisms! You will drain a node dry very quickly if you put 4 on there.
Also for mining rate testing a guy by the name of "Veritas" was doing 20+ min testing the other night, talking about it in the celestial channel of the Frostgiant discord. Swing by some time, you might be able to get good data
Thanks dude I'll have a look. Check my pinned comment about celestial mining rates for Therium, I probably should have mentioned that in the video, that's my bad.
I’m trying to love the game, but struggling. I love how slow battles are, which gives me a chance to micro and compete. At the same time, I had how slow the games feel lol. It almost feels like that game that should have released before sc2.
Just my opinion but I’ll try and keep playing to see if it eventually hooks me
Thanks!
The question is, why the hell you have to do that optimisation on luminite. I mean, it has been in beta for a long time, it was so hard to update the pathing, so those 2 workers aren't wasting time? Like why do I need to bother with the optimisation in the first place?
They removed macro on other things, but introduced that crap. For what exactly?
JFC, the more stuff I see about Stormgate, the more I like SC2 (I liked it since SC1 launch).
It's just shitty design. It's prevalent throughout the entire game.
SC2 has the exact same thing with close and far mineral patches. You can micro your workers to stack optimally, and they usually won’t by default. But just like in StarCraft it’s only really gonna matter at the highest level. I liked that part of StarCraft and I’m glad to see it in stormgate too
did you forget to mention celestial therium mining? thats wha i was most curious about
Good call, I probably should have included that. Here's a short explanation from my testing so far.
For comparison's sake 2 Prisms (250 lum cost) on therium is equal to 5 bobs/imps (250 lum cost). So you will essentially not grow your therium patch if you put 2 prisms on it. So the celestials actually have fewer options when it comes to Therium mining, it's either 1 prism and harvest too little, or 2 prisms and harvest too much! If you can, you want to have 1 prism on each patch and spread yourself out to keep the enrichment going but obviously depending on map, that can be difficult early game and most players will put both prisms on their main's therium.
Once you can get on the natural therium I recommend moving one of your prisms over there, or possibly having 3 prisms and bouncing one back and forth as a patch begins to get mined out.
@@Stormgate_Central great info. Thank you!
What rank are u?
That luminite mining trick really should be done automatically by the ai, let's hope someday the team will swap the lanes priority when the work charge lowers a bit
MADE STORMGATE FOR macOS!
Good idea!
Stormgate is the Kamala Harris of RTS. It’s supposed to be cool but it just sucks.