Great stuff.Of course,the Lorenz was commonly used in both the Union and Confederate armies as well as the Springfield.As a Civil War historian,this is great stuff.
By lowering the velocity at 50 yards to emulate the velocity at 100 yards, you also lower the spin rate of the bullet, and therefore its stability, as spin rate decreases much more slowly than linear velocity. That would affect the terminal ballistic trajectory within the gelatin block, perhaps causing the deviation of bullet path shown. A Minie ball is not isotropic in axial density like the Lorenz, so yaw is expected when not stabilized, resulting in a non-linear path.
I'm curious how the reduced powder charge affected the physical characteristics of the minie ball. Did the reduced charge obturated the skirt to the same degree that a full service charge would?
FYI: the damage to the Ballistics Gelatin does not necessarily indicate the same would happen to living tissue, Colonel Martin Fackler was very explicit about this when he developed the Ballistics Gelatin standard that the ballistics gelatin accurately simulated the expansion, fragmentation and penetration of high velocity projectiles but not off-axis damage. This is because ballistics gelatin is incompressible while animal tissue is compressible so you'll get "shock lines" in the Gelatin while in tissue it'll just stretch and bounce back. Modern hunters have confirmed this, these projectiles do not create a hole through animals any larger than the projectile. In fact, the hole is slightly smaller.
Love your videos and the history you provide. One thing is for sure, I will never give up my guns under any circumstances. Even though you are not American, you aught to be. You deserve it.
No wonder amputation was about the only thing that could save a life. Even if no bone was hit a flesh wound was as dangerous as amputation. The low-muzzle velocity also didn't let the minie ball cauterize itself like modern bullets do. Weren't they lubricated with lard? Even today's medicine would have a tough time dealing with the pure nastiness the minie ball wound produced.
The main reason for amputation was that the low velocity of the round hitting the bone caused the bone to not break, but actually shatter longitudinally. That kind of bone injury cannot heal.
This is very nicely done and presented, overall an outstanding video! Might be nice to see a follow up segment, showing the differences in trajectory and accuracy at extended ranges.
In reference to hunting whitetail deer hunting in the US, I believe the patched round ball is better. This is a very good, detailed test of these two classic projectiles. Thanks from "Mayberry" North Carolina.
Excellent video, Cap & Ball. You are right in that the Lorenz was a widely used rifle in the American Civil War. The rifle was mostly used by Confederate troops but some US soldiers were issued Lorenz rifles. Most units used the 58 Minie bullet as it was easier for the CS & US Quartermaster Departments to supply. The other most commonly used weapons of the war were the .577 British Enfield of 1853 & 1858 and the Springfield.
Thanks for this video, It was a tough choice choosing between the Pedersoli Lorenz, or the 1857 Wurttembergischen, the 1857 was chosen because of the sights, I'd really like to see you do a video on this rifle!
Both beautifull weapons and can be used in large game hunting or even self defense today. Some people use thesem 58 cal minnie balls in 16 ga shotguns here in America.
Fantastic videos! Wasn't this the third most widely used rifled musket in the Civil War after the Springfield and Enfield? One particular unit comes to mind when discussing the Lorenz: the 1st Kansas Regiment of Volunteer Infantry (Colored). Been reading about them all day, what a group of soldiers
different cartridge's have been around almost as long as the gun has,but most country's started to adopt and issuing cartridge guns on a mass scale in the late 1860's and early 1870's.
I wonder if the 58 mini ball didn't properly seal onto the rifling. Because of the lower powder charge. That is required for it to spread the skirt at the back to integrate with the rifling. I've seen other tests of this particular bullet at normal pressures and it ended up going through 3 gelatin blocks of that length. And had a absolutely massive wound cavity through most of it. I don't see a way that you could have done your test any better however to try to make it equal. Personally I think I would rather not be shot by either one. Both are absolutely devastating weapons. We think of modern weapons as being stronger or more damaging. But I'm not sure that's the case 550 grains of lead hitting you is going to make you have a bad day.
From my understanding: Hallow point: flattens on impact with bone and exists thru back. Minnie ball: same thing, but stays in the body and doesn’t exit.
I'm actually watching this while cleaning my 1853 P3 Enfield. :) Question: I see you're using the same mould to cast the .58 Minie. Are you using pure lead or a mixture of tin or antimony?
2 points not covered. 1. without the high enough powder charge the Minnie ball is not going to engage the riffling soon enough or well enough causing an extreme amount of blow by , this may or may not affect the outcome of the test 2. the heavier bullet will retain more energy over a long distance, food for thought....nice job
Hi, if the Minié bullet fits tight in the bore, the powder charge can be reduced as less energy is needed to upset the bullet into the rifling. The standard US Minié bullet was tight fitting indeed with .5775 diameter. The second point is true, but this also depends from the BC of the bullet, not just the weight,
+capandball maybe but the mini ball was designed to FILL the grooves and prevent gas cutting !! under a certain powder charge. the union army's issued cartridge was 65 grains of powder with 1 mini and 2 buck shot contained in a paper cartridge! YOu cannot simulate a 100 yard hit with 35 grains of powder! many things happen to the ball as it travels through the air. The bullet speed from a springfield was 1200 to 15000fps. the charge you used would not have produced the proper bullet speed at any distance. Try shooting them at 100 yards into your gel. Then compare the results. But your video was interesting!! Your paper patch must leave the bullet in flight, if it doesn't, the bullet will not fly proplerly being unbalanced. You DO NOT glue the paper to the bullet, you use water to shrink the paper but gluing will not work at longer ranges!! Again, do your test at a real distance of 100 yards!!
+thefreese1 Your right. The mini was designed to FILL the grooves to take advantage of the powder gasses, not just to expand to the rifling. Also it was to remove fouling as it moved down the barrel. That's why you use use only PURE soft lead!!
the US did NOT use buckshots with minie bullets. (they where used with round balls in smoothbore musketS) And the civil war soldiers did not load the paper. (unlike the british)
Hello sir, i hope this message finds you well i thank you for your youtube content it is amazing and you are definitely my favourite youtube channel. You have got me into black powder shooting and me and my son will be hunting deer this year in Australia with black powder rifles. I was wondering if you could tell me or send a link on your minie bullet lube machine you use i would really like one but am unsure what its called to look for one please if you have tome let me know thank you and thank you for your channel thanks gus
Any yaw past 6 inches is worthless as it will be outside of the human cavity. The Lorenz was a specialty accurized version of that rifle, the Springfield is a common infantry version. I have owned standard Infantry Lorenz’s and they had either no rear sight or a single fixed blade rear sight.
Most people are thinner then the length of shock damage. The extra velocity of the Lorenz sure pays off. I wonder why with Lorenz already existing the Us and U k not follow suit.
I am not surprised that the .54 cal bullet penetrated a little better, but neither bullet expanded as it would have inside a body. It would have been a wash: The 54 would have out penetrated, while the 58 would have made a wider hole in similar proportion to the depth of the 54.
You said you used a 32 grain charge for the Springfield ?? The normal field loads during the Civil War were 60-70 grains of FFG for the .58 loads. 39 grains of FFFG is a pistol load. FFG is a coarse rifle powder, FFFG is a fine pistol powder and FFFFG is used in the flash pans of flintlocks. Very interesting and good video.
Why in the hell don't you use 60grns of powder which was the U.S. regulation load. Without the proper combat load the bullet will not expand properly or engage the rifling. I am sure the Lorenze was similar load.
Hi mister! :) Few years ago i did shoot maxiball 310grs from Hawken rifle .45 from distance 50m to ballistic gellatine. Used 34gr of BP (czech vesuvit LC expres). The block of gelly was cca same size like yours, but bullet came thru. Can you estimate why pls? :) I can send photos, if you want to.
I realize ballistics gel is not human tissue, but your test would indicate that without hitting bone, these projectiles may pass through the soldiers bodies(entrance/exit). Battlefield minie bullets found 100+ years later that are distorted may have originally passed through a body. In 1960 my Boy Scout Troop camped at Antietam Battlefield, and the ground was covered in surface finds of minie bullets. As a 13 yro kid I just thought they were distorted from hitting rocks and soil. In WW1 & WW2, an 8x57 Mauser bullet could pass through 2 bodies and enter a third.
These 58 cal minnie ball took arms and legs clean off in battle as far away as 500+ yards. Also the German mauser, Lee Enfield and American 1903 Springfiled rifles all had comparable ballistics in booth world wars. teh fact theyc a go through 2-3 bodies means little as all fall under the high powered rifle range.
***** "58 cal minnie ball took arms and legs clean off in battle as far away as 500+ yards" Absolutely ludicrous. Laughable. Among the stupidest things I've read on RUclips this week. As Larry the Cable Guy says, "Here's your sign." You JUST WATCHED what a 500-grain bullet traveling at roughly 1000 fps will do to ballistics gel at 100 yards. A .58 caliber hole, followed by a whole bunch more of .58 caliber hole, followed by the totally intact bullet. If it was to have hit bone, it would have shattered it, and continued onward to produce more .58 caliber wide wound channel. That was why the Minié ball was so reviled by Civil War surgeons: it didn't merely break bone and ricochet, it shattered the bone, drilled a .58-caliber hole in it, and kept on going more or less intact. A surgeon can work with a clean bone break; a 4 inch square area of bone fragments with a giant hole drilled through the middle is rather more problematic. The "traumatic limb amputation via projectile" scenario you described would have required artillery or a .50 BMG anti-materiél rifle with Raufoss explosive rounds. Do you bullshit for fun or out of ignorance? Seriously.
***** I did not reply to bullboo1, months ago because his comment did not make any sense to me. Upon reading it again, it still doesn't make any sense. Maybe that is why he uses the name BULL + BOO? I say BOO to his BULL.
Rifled-musket is an oxymoron. Musket isn't another term for muzzle loader it is another term for smooth-bore. If a long-arm has a rifled barrel it is a rifle or carbine, if a long-arm doesn't have a rifled barrel it is a musket. There are muzzle loaded rifles like you're talking about here, and there are breach-loaded magazine fed lever-action muskets like the Winchester 1895 Russian or the Savage 99D Canadian. Most shotguns are muskets, but the RIFLES here are not.
The terms can be confusing. The N-SSA definitions generally hold: Musket: a muzzle loading shoulder arm having a smooth bore and a barrel length of approximately 42 inches Rifled Musket: a musket, originally manufactured as a smoothbore, now having a rifled bore and a barrel length of approximately 42 inches. Rifle Musket: a muzzle loading shoulder arm manufactured with a rifledbore and having a barrel length of approximately 40 inches. Rifle: a muzzle loading shoulder arm manufactured with a rifled bore and having a barrel length of approximately 33 inches. Carbine: a breech or muzzle loading shoulder arm having a smooth or rifled bore, using externally primed ammunition, and having a maximum barrel length of 26.5 inches.
Mike Mac not entirely true. I do not think a shotgun is classified as a musket (but i didn't research it), however, a musket (by old British dictionary) qas defined as "a long barreled rifles loaded at the muzzle end"
Наука
After this in depth look into the damage capabilities of these weapons I've decided that I don't want to be shot by either of them.
Great stuff.Of course,the Lorenz was commonly used in both the Union and Confederate armies as well as the Springfield.As a Civil War historian,this is great stuff.
This a really awesome video 12 years on, thanks man!
By lowering the velocity at 50 yards to emulate the velocity at 100 yards, you also lower the spin rate of the bullet, and therefore its stability, as spin rate decreases much more slowly than linear velocity. That would affect the terminal ballistic trajectory within the gelatin block, perhaps causing the deviation of bullet path shown. A Minie ball is not isotropic in axial density like the Lorenz, so yaw is expected when not stabilized, resulting in a non-linear path.
His accent makes these videos even cooler to watch 🤘🤓.
I'm curious how the reduced powder charge affected the physical characteristics of the minie ball. Did the reduced charge obturated the skirt to the same degree that a full service charge would?
Love your videos. Learning a lot from them. Cheers from Bratislava.
Fantastic job!! well done!
Great video CB.
Excellent video!
FYI: the damage to the Ballistics Gelatin does not necessarily indicate the same would happen to living tissue, Colonel Martin Fackler was very explicit about this when he developed the Ballistics Gelatin standard that the ballistics gelatin accurately simulated the expansion, fragmentation and penetration of high velocity projectiles but not off-axis damage. This is because ballistics gelatin is incompressible while animal tissue is compressible so you'll get "shock lines" in the Gelatin while in tissue it'll just stretch and bounce back. Modern hunters have confirmed this, these projectiles do not create a hole through animals any larger than the projectile. In fact, the hole is slightly smaller.
Love your videos and the history you provide. One thing is for sure, I will never give up my guns under any circumstances. Even though you are not American, you aught to be. You deserve it.
Very interesting. Both a couple wonderfully accurate, very effective firearms.
No wonder amputation was about the only thing that could save a life. Even if no bone was hit a flesh wound was as dangerous as amputation. The low-muzzle velocity also didn't let the minie ball cauterize itself like modern bullets do. Weren't they lubricated with lard? Even today's medicine would have a tough time dealing with the pure nastiness the minie ball wound produced.
The main reason for amputation was that the low velocity of the round hitting the bone caused the bone to not break, but actually shatter longitudinally. That kind of bone injury cannot heal.
This is very nicely done and presented, overall an outstanding video! Might be nice to see a follow up segment, showing the differences in trajectory and accuracy at extended ranges.
Chuck, I'll do that in the future, but to demonstrate the difference have find a suitable range with at least 300 paces distance.
In reference to hunting whitetail deer hunting in the US, I believe the patched round ball is better. This is a very good, detailed test of these two classic projectiles. Thanks from "Mayberry" North Carolina.
Excellent video, Cap & Ball. You are right in that the Lorenz was a widely used rifle in the American Civil War. The rifle was mostly used by Confederate troops but some US soldiers were issued Lorenz rifles. Most units used the 58 Minie bullet as it was easier for the CS & US Quartermaster Departments to supply. The other most commonly used weapons of the war were the .577 British Enfield of 1853 & 1858 and the Springfield.
Those glasses are wicked!
Thanks for this video, It was a tough choice choosing between the Pedersoli Lorenz, or the 1857 Wurttembergischen, the 1857 was chosen because of the sights, I'd really like to see you do a video on this rifle!
Very informative! Such a devastating bullet design, its no wonder the Crimean war and the American Civil war were such bloodbaths.
Both beautifull weapons and can be used in large game hunting or even self defense today. Some people use thesem 58 cal minnie balls in 16 ga shotguns here in America.
Fantastic videos! Wasn't this the third most widely used rifled musket in the Civil War after the Springfield and Enfield? One particular unit comes to mind when discussing the Lorenz: the 1st Kansas Regiment of Volunteer Infantry (Colored). Been reading about them all day, what a group of soldiers
different cartridge's have been around almost as long as the gun has,but most country's started to adopt and issuing cartridge guns on a mass scale in the late 1860's and early 1870's.
When they talk about grains being the weight of the bullet. Is grain also the measure of the gunpowder's weight?
I wonder if the 58 mini ball didn't properly seal onto the rifling. Because of the lower powder charge. That is required for it to spread the skirt at the back to integrate with the rifling.
I've seen other tests of this particular bullet at normal pressures and it ended up going through 3 gelatin blocks of that length. And had a absolutely massive wound cavity through most of it.
I don't see a way that you could have done your test any better however to try to make it equal.
Personally I think I would rather not be shot by either one. Both are absolutely devastating weapons. We think of modern weapons as being stronger or more damaging. But I'm not sure that's the case
550 grains of lead hitting you is going to make you have a bad day.
when they are talking about a black powder charge,grains refers to the measurement of the charge by volume.smokeless powder is measured by weight.
For BP, the volume measurement is calibrated to the weight. For example, 50 gr by volume is the same as 50 gr by weight.
From my understanding: Hallow point: flattens on impact with bone and exists thru back. Minnie ball: same thing, but stays in the body and doesn’t exit.
What do parking meters have anything to do with it?
Very interesting. Did you ever use the Lorenz Bullet for hunting?
I'm actually watching this while cleaning my 1853 P3 Enfield. :)
Question: I see you're using the same mould to cast the .58 Minie. Are you using pure lead or a mixture of tin or antimony?
Use tungsten, its denser
@@West_Coast_Mainline Yeah, I'll get right on that.
2 points not covered. 1. without the high enough powder charge the Minnie ball is not going to engage the riffling soon enough or well enough causing an extreme amount of blow by , this may or may not affect the outcome of the test 2. the heavier bullet will retain more energy over a long distance, food for thought....nice job
Hi, if the Minié bullet fits tight in the bore, the powder charge can be reduced as less energy is needed to upset the bullet into the rifling. The standard US Minié bullet was tight fitting indeed with .5775 diameter. The second point is true, but this also depends from the BC of the bullet, not just the weight,
+capandball maybe but the mini ball was designed to FILL the grooves and prevent gas cutting !! under a certain powder charge. the union army's issued cartridge was 65 grains of powder with 1 mini and 2 buck shot contained in a paper cartridge! YOu cannot simulate a 100 yard hit with 35 grains of powder! many things happen to the ball as it travels through the air. The bullet speed from a springfield was 1200 to 15000fps. the charge you used would not have produced the proper bullet speed at any distance. Try shooting them at 100 yards into your gel. Then compare the results. But your video was interesting!! Your paper patch must leave the bullet in flight, if it doesn't, the bullet will not fly proplerly being unbalanced. You DO NOT glue the paper to the bullet, you use water to shrink the paper but gluing will not work at longer ranges!! Again, do your test at a real distance of 100 yards!!
+thefreese1 Your right. The mini was designed to FILL the grooves to take advantage of the powder gasses, not just to expand to the rifling. Also it was to remove fouling as it moved down the barrel. That's why you use use only PURE soft lead!!
Yep. and too much powder will blow out the skirt.....good video
the US did NOT use buckshots with minie bullets.
(they where used with round balls in smoothbore musketS)
And the civil war soldiers did not load the paper. (unlike the british)
Hello sir, i hope this message finds you well i thank you for your youtube content it is amazing and you are definitely my favourite youtube channel. You have got me into black powder shooting and me and my son will be hunting deer this year in Australia with black powder rifles. I was wondering if you could tell me or send a link on your minie bullet lube machine you use i would really like one but am unsure what its called to look for one please if you have tome let me know thank you and thank you for your channel thanks gus
I've never heard the Springfield referred to as a "Bridesburg" before.
Bridesburg is a town in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Historically a German and Irish community.
and the 1853 T french rifle ..???
Do you use pure lead or alloy?
Were the bullets cast with pure lead or an alloy?
Any yaw past 6 inches is worthless as it will be outside of the human cavity. The Lorenz was a specialty accurized version of that rifle, the Springfield is a common infantry version. I have owned standard Infantry Lorenz’s and they had either no rear sight or a single fixed blade rear sight.
Most people are thinner then the length of shock damage. The extra velocity of the Lorenz sure pays off. I wonder why with Lorenz already existing the Us and U k not follow suit.
I am not surprised that the .54 cal bullet penetrated a little better, but neither bullet expanded as it would have inside a body. It would have been a wash: The 54 would have out penetrated, while the 58 would have made a wider hole in similar proportion to the depth of the 54.
pressed? how so?
You said you used a 32 grain charge for the Springfield ?? The normal field loads during the Civil War were 60-70 grains of FFG for the .58 loads. 39 grains of FFFG is a pistol load. FFG is a coarse rifle powder, FFFG is a fine pistol powder and FFFFG is used in the flash pans of flintlocks. Very interesting and good video.
Somehow you missed he was reproducing a 100 meter impact. Do you expect him to shoot a full load at point blank then?
When did they start using shells?
Short answer: right after the civil war. By 1870, fixed ammunition arms were outselling muzzle loaders.
60 gr. Of BP is light for a large caliber minie I would think.
Horrific wounds much worse than the modern JHP or Soft Point.
I expected it to mushroom more
Why in the hell don't you use 60grns of powder which was the U.S. regulation load. Without the proper combat load the bullet will not expand properly or engage the rifling. I am sure the Lorenze was similar load.
Did you not pay attention? He's simulating a 100m impact.
Hi mister! :)
Few years ago i did shoot maxiball 310grs from Hawken rifle .45 from distance 50m to ballistic gellatine. Used 34gr of BP (czech vesuvit LC expres). The block of gelly was cca same size like yours, but bullet came thru. Can you estimate why pls? :) I can send photos, if you want to.
Should have used a 1858 Enfield rifle, very popular in the US Civil War. Also used a paper patched bullet.
the civil war soldeirs did not use a paerpatched bullet. (the british did)
And it was the P1853 that was uses a lot. ( not the shorter P1858)
I realize ballistics gel is not human tissue, but your test would indicate that without hitting bone, these projectiles may pass through the soldiers bodies(entrance/exit). Battlefield minie bullets found 100+ years later that are distorted may have originally passed through a body. In 1960 my Boy Scout Troop camped at Antietam Battlefield, and the ground was covered in surface finds of minie bullets. As a 13 yro kid I just thought they were distorted from hitting rocks and soil.
In WW1 & WW2, an 8x57 Mauser bullet could pass through 2 bodies and enter a third.
These 58 cal minnie ball took arms and legs clean off in battle as far away as 500+ yards. Also the German mauser, Lee Enfield and American 1903 Springfiled rifles all had comparable ballistics in booth world wars. teh fact theyc a go through 2-3 bodies means little as all fall under the high powered rifle range.
***** "58 cal minnie ball took arms and legs clean off in battle as far away as 500+ yards"
Absolutely ludicrous. Laughable. Among the stupidest things I've read on RUclips this week. As Larry the Cable Guy says, "Here's your sign."
You JUST WATCHED what a 500-grain bullet traveling at roughly 1000 fps will do to ballistics gel at 100 yards. A .58 caliber hole, followed by a whole bunch more of .58 caliber hole, followed by the totally intact bullet. If it was to have hit bone, it would have shattered it, and continued onward to produce more .58 caliber wide wound channel. That was why the Minié ball was so reviled by Civil War surgeons: it didn't merely break bone and ricochet, it shattered the bone, drilled a .58-caliber hole in it, and kept on going more or less intact. A surgeon can work with a clean bone break; a 4 inch square area of bone fragments with a giant hole drilled through the middle is rather more problematic.
The "traumatic limb amputation via projectile" scenario you described would have required artillery or a .50 BMG anti-materiél rifle with Raufoss explosive rounds. Do you bullshit for fun or out of ignorance? Seriously.
***** I did not reply to bullboo1, months ago because his comment did not make any sense to me. Upon reading it again, it still doesn't make any sense. Maybe that is why he uses the name BULL + BOO? I say BOO to his BULL.
Rifled-musket is an oxymoron. Musket isn't another term for muzzle loader it is another term for smooth-bore. If a long-arm has a rifled barrel it is a rifle or carbine, if a long-arm doesn't have a rifled barrel it is a musket. There are muzzle loaded rifles like you're talking about here, and there are breach-loaded magazine fed lever-action muskets like the Winchester 1895 Russian or the Savage 99D Canadian. Most shotguns are muskets, but the RIFLES here are not.
The terms can be confusing. The N-SSA definitions generally hold:
Musket: a muzzle loading shoulder arm having a smooth bore and a barrel length of approximately 42 inches
Rifled Musket: a musket, originally manufactured as a smoothbore, now having a rifled bore and a barrel length of approximately 42 inches.
Rifle Musket: a muzzle loading shoulder arm manufactured with a rifledbore and having a barrel length of approximately 40 inches.
Rifle: a muzzle loading shoulder arm manufactured with a rifled bore and having a barrel length of approximately 33 inches.
Carbine: a breech or muzzle loading shoulder arm having a smooth or rifled bore, using externally primed ammunition, and having a maximum barrel length of 26.5 inches.
Mike Mac not entirely true. I do not think a shotgun is classified as a musket (but i didn't research it), however, a musket (by old British dictionary) qas defined as "a long barreled rifles loaded at the muzzle end"
I'm
Yes?
TL:DR
yuor intro is way too loud but good video