Shooting the Guncotton Cartridge for the M1854 Lorenz
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 29 сен 2024
- History of Baron von Lenk’s Austrian guncotton cartridge: • The Von Lenk Guncotton...
The first shots in 150+ years with the Austrian guncotton cartridge for the Model 1854 Lorenz rifle-musket… at least I think so. If someone else has shot a Lorenz with one of these, let me know!
“I can hear the Kaiserhymne in the distance” would have been very strange last words, if the gun would have exploded. Fortunately, it did not, history was (re) made, fun was had, and nerds may rejoice.
This feels like the gun most gun enthusiasts would realistically be able to cobble together if they were sent back in time.
Thats something i often think about. This is probably what i would go for first.
And it would still be monstrously effective.
Then followed by a needle-ish gun but with the primer attached at the end of the stick where the gun cotton is wrapped.
Absolutely. If you are a gun-enthusiast and have some handy skill I highly recommend building your own muzzleloader. It's a great project.
i wouldn't want to play with that chemistry in field conditions
That tiny puff of smoke confused my brain pretty good, gotta say.
Same here! 👍
3m
3m
Awesome experimental history.
I'm damned impressed! Excellent.
Love to see the muzzle velocity you’re getting out of that
Man, that's pretty ballsey, but you are a big boy and are responsible. I know you probably can't/won't say, but is that homemade nitrocellulose?
This is gonna bring a tear to my eye, finally someone who appreciates the empire, AND HE IS ALSO FROM PA
Pretty cool, those Lorenze’s are a sharp looking rifle
I really want a video on how exactly you made the gun cotton and how the cartridges are made? Obviously this wouldn’t be RUclips legal (what is???).
However I think it’s definitely something I’d love to try.
I have a modern optima V2 pistol rated for 150 grains of black powder. I think it we’ve fun to try some gun cotton (very small carefully measured amounts).
How about getting a proper performance cartridge??? I’m confident you could sell those things (for modern reproductions).
I think smokeless muzzleloaders are underrated. The issue normally with smokeless in a muzzleloader is getting a consistent seating depth. The cartridge removes this issue entirely and it seems it would be safe enough for modern reproductions (maybe even some antiques)???
Anyways you have a hugely underrated channel yourself!!!
Seriously keep it up!!!
There are videos on how to make nitrocellulose, the process is very simple. You can even find many high school textbooks with the recipes for everything from Nitrocellulose, to black powder to rocket fuel.. But keep in mind, it is legitimately Chemistry. Don’t just start trying to cook up some nitrocellulose in your kitchen with pots and pans.
Acquire some proper measuring utensils, Glass beakers, bunson burners, etc, and only attempt doing this in a well lit, well ventilated area, and either wear a chemical respirator or have a fume extractor beside your workspace. You do not want to breathe in these chemicals.
@@Beuwen_The_Dragon yeah I understand you go to the hardware store, get potassium nitrate stump remover, sulphuric acid drain cleaner and cotton balls abd your hood for nitrocellulose.
However how exactly do I make the cartridges??? He explained in his video that it requires very very specific handling to control the surface area (which controls the burn rate).
I have a strong action to try er out (optima V2 pistol rated for 150 grains of black powder. However I would definitely want some instructions???
So yes making nitrocellulose is vet easy… If you watched the video you know that it took 40+ years from nitrocellulose invention to the point it could be used in small arms reliably.
I think he’s probably afraid of liability???
People, in general, were not aware that, during some ten years, half a dozen experiments on a large scale had been tried in the French army, each of which had no sooner been thought worthy of adoption, before another was introduced; and that, even at the present day, the Minié is but little used, owing to a previous pattern having been largely circulated. It is also most probable that the Prussians would never have adopted their needle-gun had they thought that so perfect a weapon as the present rifle would so soon have made its appearance.
The Rifle-musket: A Practical Treatise on the Enfield-Pritchett Rifle ...
By Henry Jervis-White-Jervis
Very neat Brett. What does the smoke smell like?
Reminds me of cordite in old milsurp .303 ammo
@@papercartridges6705 that sounds about right, because cordite was the next step, wasn’t it?
It would be interesting to see how a gun cotton load would work in a modern Inline muzzeloader with the same setup. A majority of modern Inlines are rated to take up to 150gr of black powder (pyrodex pellets) substitute. They utilize a shotgun primer and sabot. The trick would be not to compress the load. It would be a challenge to ram it home because a sabot is a tight fit. Said load can't be compressed.
Lee makes a mold for a Minié-style bullet intended for modern muzzleloaders. You might be able to make a workable version with that.
Wow! That was really something, very interesting.
02:22 Sir thank you for sharing this piece of information with us!
It makes so much more sense now!
While ppl usualy drone about how fast and wunderbar was Dreyse needlegun it completely makes sense why the Austrian militär did not update its Infanterie Gewehr Lorenz as it was going to get the update in amunition and speed of reload all the while they could keep the same gun and thus same drill for already trained troops of regular army and also Landwehr!
This is blast of information, IF they could pull this one of the famous Battle of Königgratz would unfold very differently for sure (by the way it is best preserved historical battlefield on this planet, go visit, reserve several days so you cannot miss anything preserved from that Duel of the Fates that decided future development of Europe to this very day).
Awesome work
Shame they did not pull it off and solve the pickle with guncotton.
Gott erhalte!
+][+
I really want to see Königgrätz someday. I also need to visit the Kriegsarchiv in Wien.
The Cartridge should have a small Disk attached to the Top of the bullet.
I have a wesley Richards monkey tail rifle … one of the Portuguese contract rifles… how about a video on making cartridges for those??
I want to do this now for my Remington 1863 contract rifle
I think instead of wood I would make a bullet cast that was filled from the top with a lead tail that way you would know it was straight.
Interestingly, if you were on the battlefield, would you choose this super slow-firing gun or use a bow and arrow?
How do you make these gun cotton cartridges? U should do a whole process of making them like how Von lenk mae them
A coat of water glass or varnish might help them slide down better.
Interesting you mention that, since historically the Austrians did treat their cartridges with waterglass.
Is it also quieter?
I think you should get with Matt from Demolition Ranch......Could get SPICY!
Très intéressant. :-)
Can the gun cotton ignite from embers of the last shot?
What happens if your shooting down hill?
Original Austrian rifles were modified so the wooden stick would wedge in a drilled out hole in the breech face. I also did a longer video on the details of this cartridge, with a whole lot more info on how the round actually worked.
Wrong anthem in the beginning or what you think? Don't think the Austrians like to hear the German anthem. ;)
The imperial Austrian anthem used that tune. The Germans decided they liked that tune and also adopted it. The Austrians had it first.
@@papercartridges6705 I should have known, that you did research it thoroughly :)
Anyways, you are right. I can confirm after a quick little research on my own. Haydn composed it to honor Kaiser Franz II.
@@papercartridges6705 And who cares to begin with. Austrians are merely highland Germans in the first place. Just don't tell them 😁
An interesting but highly fiddly innovation? I must ask Lord Rivers to order a few boxes from the Doppelreich so my men can bayonet charge without any pesky smoke in the way...
God damn I keep waiting for one to blow up with your hand still near the muzzle. This is super cringe
Ein Gewehr aus Österreich und die deutsche Nationalhymne. 🤔.
Es war erste die Kaiserhymn (Gott Erhalte Franz den Kaiser). Die deutsche Nationalhymn war später.
@@papercartridges6705 😳Echt?
Dann habe ich grade was dazu gelernt.
Besten Dank.
Since I've had "only shoot black powder in muzzleloaders" drilled into my mind, this got me nervous
I didn't know there were actually smokeless percussion loads in the time. Thanks for showing!
Also I love how the sticks sometimes can be seen going downrange.
Sticks down rang: First Tracers 😂
Smokeless and caseless, no less.
Hallo before I've heard the story the middle europe 1970 Berlin from , of the year ammunition ,,,
the "Smoke lessness!" was known? but WOW! NOW I have Watched the difference! the whole thing looked and sounded different than I would have thought.
Awesomeness! Love to see a video on making the gun cotton and assembling the cartridge.
Not likely as it would be banned and blocked by RUclips. The process is basically soaking unsized cotton in nitric acid and then rinsing it 10 times in clean distilled water. It is then dried and cut to differing sizes to control burn rate and set to the bore size of the rifle/cannon. The burn rate is about 28k ft per second so very important to not compress it as it will then be a bomb.
There's plenty of videos on the youtube's showing how to make gun cotton...
You can make your own gun cotton, but it does require careful preparation and a VERY well ventilated space.
Make it in small batches over a period of time. When you soak your gun cotton in water to remove the excess acids, change the water several times. And also be mindful where you store it after it has been made.
This is awesome! You did this a lot sooner then I excepted since I was at your shop. Glad to see you where confident enough to switch to the Lorenz instead of the Enfield for your test. That really does look a lot of fun.
As you can see the charges were very light, 10 grains. I have tried some with 13 grains and that is the max I will go. There’s a decent recoil and it’s blowing through a couple logs I use as a backstop but there’s no overpressure signs (cap stays on nipple, hammer is not being lifted). I think this is about a 800 fps load, more than good enough for my plinking purposes.
@@papercartridges6705 That sounds just right for that. If you ever did try going full load defiantly would try it in something with a modern steel barrel meant to handle the pressures. But concept has been proven and that’s honesty just the best!
@@papercartridges6705 I've been watching couple of your past videos and it makes me wonder will guncotton cartridge working any of the capping breech-loader you've done like the sharps breech-loader or the green rifle no need to wreck your rifles trying though
@@papercartridges6705It would be very interesting for scientific purposes to perhaps commission a barrel (or just breechplug?) for a Pedersoli with the correct divot for the wood peg. And maybe proof that barrel with guncotton (and possibly other smokeless loads?) in a lab.
Is there a danger that the guncotton cartridge will prematurely combust due to a hot barrel if you fired off a lot of rounds over time?
Perhaps but the Austrians did not seem worried about it. They claimed guncotton burned cooler than BP which kept the barrel getting too hot.
Unless you are machine-gunning your muskets, you should be fine.
Für den Kaiser; die Geschichte verlangt es!
Mit Gott, für Kaiser und Vaterland
Lang lebe Österreich!
This guy should have every powder manufacture knocking on his door now
No stabilizers, can't use it safely past 1-2 years.
Wow. I’ve never seen it in action. Thanks. 👍
Gun cotton is a bit too easy to ignite in storage.
Too bad. It sure looks like it worked great.
First step towards practical smokeless propellant.
It did work great in the guns, but as you said, it keeps bursting into flames in storage. They were so close!
@@papercartridges6705
They sure were.
BTW Have you tried drilling your dowels with a lathe then turning the outside dimensions with the bit still in the workpiece? That should give you a perfectly centered hole in the dowel if you can pull it off.
@@papercartridges6705 Only took another 30 years...
Didn't they kinda solve the storage of fun cotton by storing it wet in alcohol or something like that? I could swear I read that somewhere.
There are not enough like buttons for this video!
Congratulations on such achievement in the fields of both Hoplology and Experimental Archaeology!
God bless you and yours!
Gott erhalte Franz den Kaiser
I have made gallery rounds for 8mm Lebel and .303 using flash paper and lead balls. This was the standard practice for French training who issued reloading kits to units to make these rounds from fired cases. Flash Paper is essentially gun cotton.
I would be wary in using anything but a cigarette paper sized sheet. NC, unless it is properly made can be full of pooh traps! Cordite was used in BP type guns, but it has significantly different properties to modern nitro powder.
The Lee Enfield is a black powder gun…
It very much “depends”…
@@allangibson8494 Well... yes and no! The initial ammunition for the .303 Lee Enfield was a compressed gunpowder load, but this was at the very end of the gunpowder era and the energy levels were the highest they could squeeze out of GP. It was always intended that the Lee would go smokeless once they got the production problems sorted out. GP .303 was only ever an interim solution. The barrel was designed to take high pressure loadings from the get go. The main early issue with cordite was erosion rather than pressure.
@@felixthecat265 The main early issue with cordite is they didn’t have any.
The Lee system was adopted in 1888 (a year after the French announcement of smokeless powder).
Cordite was developed a year later.
@@allangibson8494 Well.. Nitrocellulose was reported by Schoenbein and Peloutz in the 1820s and there had been repeated efforts to develop a successful propellent for several decades. The French pushed through the Lebel in only six months which led to many problems subsequently. The properties of Nitro propellants were well understood from the 1870s onward. Most of the problems were about developing a reliable method of manufacture.
@@felixthecat265 Most of the problems with nitrocellulose were related to its tendency to go boom without warning (which got worse with age and residual acid content). This was solved by adding petroleum wax to the mix (nitroglycerin was also used as well (nitroglycerin and nitrocellulose play well together)).
Cordite was specifically designed to replicate black powder pressures and burn rate (but without the smoke). Cordite is about 2/3 nitrocellulose, 1/3 nitroglycerin with 5% petroleum jelly and acetone added. Metallic cartridges permitted tight control over free space behind the bullet.
*What a GREAT 2-part Series! I learned a lot! Thank you, Man!* 🤠👍
The wooden base would have made a very effective base for a needle fire cartridge and could have held a waxed felt base to seal a Dreyse type rifle breech
I had no idea this type of cartridge existed, really interesting. Obviously much less fouling than black powder, but when you'd finished was there much? Loading a bit light to be fired in such an old rifle was a good idea, the cartridges look great too.
First comment!!!!
Awesome. I have to believe that even with “perfectly straight” Austrian ammo double loading is going to be a thing with a company or battalion firing all at once and no ramrods?
The Austrians came up with a clever "loaded gun indicator", check out my previous video which is all about the history of the Austrian guncotton cartridge.
I was so disappointed when you said it was just a dummy but the first live shots are great! I wonder if they were actually drop down in practice or if it was just something the brass were told...
Were there any problems with shooting the gun cotton cartridges in a barrels made for black powder when they were testing the original cartridges? Any blown up barrels?
I’m sure they blew up plenty while trying to figure this stuff out.
I wonder if unused lollipop sticks could work, since they would be a.) made of paper and b.) perfectly straight.
Interesting futuristic technology ... LOL... Great video...
Wunderschön!
How did you determine the thread diameter and density of weave to use? Where’s your guncotton sourced from?
Careful trial and error, trying to follow the sparse historical descriptions as close as possible. I made the guncotton.
....... you made the gun cotton ..... that is freakishly excellent and you receive a plethora of man-hugs for such fiendish ingenuity.
If you’re casting your own bullets, place your bullet back in the mold and use a drill press through the sprue plate. The dowel will be as straight as possible then. I had to polish and old mold to get some surface rust out and I used a bullet as a polish carrier. Worked pretty slick.
Good idea!
nitro cellulose dissolved by acetone pushed through a pasta maker and you have extruded stick powder.
Now, THERE'S a thought. Or run through a grain mill.
I'd want to do a LOT of testing before touching off that first round, though.
Brett, would the Pedersoli Lorenz repro work with your bullet-on-a-stick?
I ask, coz they appear t be very solid guns, and perhaps with the breach plug pulled and drilled for the stick, you could up your power and truly test this awesomeness.
Your thoughts please.
Great video, cheers, Gus
I've used a modern repro Enfield for testing some of these, which are made out of modern steel. I don't know if I'd want to buy a very expensive repro Lorenz ($1700) and then start drilling holes into it, when I have the original Lorenz that works good enough. Guncotton scares me, I would be very nervous using "full power" charges even in a modern gun. The stuff is wild and is very hard to tame.
@papercartridges6705 well, that's just scary to hear and it makes me ponder even more how anybody had the balls to actually experiment on a large scale, with troop trials etc.
Please don't blow up. I like your videos. Gus
Were the shots flying higher than usual for a Lorenze? at 70% charge is the velocity noticeably increased?
I wasn’t really aiming, but I did hold high because velocities are pretty low with my mild charges. These are experimental rounds so I didn’t expect much consistency.
@@papercartridges6705 So far it seems reasonably consistent, I'm staying tuned, gl&hf! :)
Ze Kaiser woud be smilink...
A smokeless frontstuffer....I can scarcely believe my eyes!
Must save a lot of time, troops not needing to ram ( unless you are prone perhaps?) and Im sure the troops loved not having to clean BP crud!
Where is this range at? Where I'm at, it's all scrub brush and cactus.
Pennsylvania. Enjoy the scrub and cactus, we envy your wide open places to shoot out west.
I learned something today. Thank you.
How's the recoil versus black powder, and the velocity?
Recoil is very mild but these are also reduced loads to keep it safe in a very old musket.
Cordite, or raw guncotton burns very hot according to British sources I've read, and that looks like an origional gun. You might look into this, because that is old steel and probably very valuable because I've never even seen one of those rifles before except in old phorographs.
Original Lorenz rifles are somewhat scarce and mine is in pretty nice shape. My cartridges are loaded to about 60 to 70% strength of what the originals were, to reduce the stress on the gun. That’s why there is hardly any recoil, since the loads are very mild.
@@papercartridges6705would be very cool to see chrono readings on both full cotton and full black powder loads
I hear the Kaizerhymn too😮
Since the magic ingredient in gun cotton is cellulose you should be able to make it from white paper, linen and a number of other materials. Silk would not work.
Oh yes . I didn’t know gun cotton was used for rifles but after making some and just igniting it I guessed it could be used for a propellant . My idea was to put it in a brass 45/70 cartridge much like cordite was used in the .303 . I didn’t have any loading data so “my” idea is still on the drawing board . I don’t think I will experiment for obvious reasons . Thank you for posting and now I know it can be done 👍
Be careful with the loads. Start with a small quantities and then add grits to fill the cartridge.
Greetings
Variation between loads
@@gaston01000 thank you , I’ve dabbled before and I will work the loads up watching for pressure signs etc . Be good to try though 😳😆
Isnt gun cotton what all modern propellants consist of?
@@LASSEFITTA The gun cotton in modern ammunition has been gelitinized and formed in to uniform flakes or pellets for more controlled and consistent burn. It also has stabilizers added to make it shelf stable. Straight gun cotton without all this processing will burn erratically, not to mention it "rots" over time and can become more unstable & explosive, making it very unsafe to use past 1-2 years. The French learned this the hard way when old smokeless powder without stabilizers spontaneously detonated and sunk a battleship.
I'm familiar with gun cotton but I never knew it was used like this in a firearm. Thanks for sharing.
It's literally in the name, GUN cotton. Like, what did you think the "gun" part meant?
Yankee Soldiers nicknamed the Lorenz 'Mulekick' because of the caliber. 54.......
I guess the cartridges during the war are mostlly made of normal black powder....
The Lorenz was not very beloved
If a barrel explosion of the antique gun is possible due to potential user error (eg ramming the gun cotton), then I wonder if it is more advisable to wear greater eye protection while firing.
To my mind, had Austria followed through with gun cotton, with the American civil war helping to bring about the end of muzzle loaders in favor of cartridge breech loaders, one has to wonder how much longer small bore repeaters would’ve taken to develop with the smokeless revolution happening 20 years earlier.
Hallo also` I did not know that the system ammunitions, Itis` middle europe 1854 Since how too.
I'm 1970 Berlin 3days fo , Paris GO229 Last me .
Dreyse: "I fear no man... but that thing..."
Guncotton Lorenz:
Dreyse: "It scares me..."
Interesting but if that stuff is that touche no wonder the US army rejected it..........
2:57 when you loading this round…. You hold your finger over the end of the muzzle right after you just fired a round. I don’t recommend this. Any lit cotton or wood remaining in the barrel, a single ember, could easily ignite this gun cotton from the new cartridge and blow your finger off. I would advise waiting between shots, blowing through the nipple, tipping the gun barrel down and shake it out, and not putting any body parts in front of the muzzle more than you can help it. Using the ram rod is potentially dangerous as well. Id say… don’t get in a hurry… don’t get in front of the muzzle more than you need to. Just trying to help. Not trying to be critical. ❤👍
I always find old ammo of this typ while Metall detecting in germany the biggest one got 22mm diameter . The hannover typ projectiles are about 20mm
Thanks for a very entertaining video.
I wonder if modern chemistry can find a more stable active ingredient for guncotton.
It would be really nice to have a somewhat clean burning propellant with similar pressures to black powder.
But then again, aside from hunters and enthusiasts there's not much incentive/demand for a product like that.
rad
I'd really like to see some chronograph data to compare the gun cotton vs the black powder, even if it is a light charge
I had no idea smokeless rounds were used so early, though it makes sense since gun cotton was invented in the 1840s. Surprised it took until 1886 for it to become mainstream.
that is wonderful! how did you work out the exact formulation.
Wow, caseless smokeless ammunition in the 1860’s! Who would’ve thought?
Very cool... However, how do you shoot at targets below you? Won't the cartridge just fall out?
you are shooting a 162 year old rifle
I would be surprised if any modern rifle would survive half that many years
Out of all the guns i expected to see fired in an internet video, this is by far the least expected. Thats including goofy shit like the Collier
If you drill a hole the diameter of that stick through a piece of wood of a thickness equal to length of it, then countersink a hole the diameter of the bullet, you might be able to get seat those pegs straight.
Die Bratwurst ist so vergänglich wie eine Welle im Meer oder zwei Kirschen Blüten im Wind, das lächeln deiner liebsten im Sonnenschein darum nie den Senf vergessen zur Bratwurst!
Wow, every day is a school day. I’ve heard of gun cotton but never seen that type of load.
So it's a loose fit and that is how the catridge slide to the breech easily?
The Kaiser? I think Austria had their Emperor, didn't they?
This would have been devastating if put into a breach loader
You could hear first few notes of Deutschland Deutschland uber ales
This Lorenz makes me wonder about the accuracy > having no coned base and skirt like the traditional Minnie ball
1/ will it expand into the rifling as a Minnie does ?
2/ And shooting Minnie's ( smaller diameter than the bore ) pure lead 99.9% IS A MUST and with this gun cotton pushing up the velocity , did they have a leading problem ? ..............
.......... and we know what that does to accuracy !
No offense to the Baron 🧐but i think ill stick with our rifled muskets > Enfield , Springfield and Zouave 😁! nice rifle range !
What if you put the gun cotton in a thin wooden walled tube and had that fit to the butt of the bullet It might make it a bit safer to store
Very cool! But a bit boring since I coud not follw the hits!
Did they have issues with this cartridge in damp conditions?
Absolutely splendid Bret! Hope you can refine this cartridge and show how perhaps accuracy can be, if at all, synched up a bit?
And when you make a batch of these cartridges, do you need to employ extra safety precautions in storing them, or is it a case of making a small batch, and shooting them fairly quickly?
A batch of guncotton makes about 15 rounds so they tend to be shot pretty quick.
@@papercartridges6705 Ok thank you buddy and please keep producing your fascinating presentations.🫡👍
I've never seenthis type of cartridge b4 thx
Why not flashpaper instead of gun cotton?