The fact that Rapido has lots of metal adding its weight would steer me towards Hornby. Less chance of any mazak rot later on. The Hornby one looks loads better as well. The fact you get the coaches with the Hornby one isn't an issue as you will have to buy the coaches anyway. Hornby all the way ... how many times do you need to crawl anyway.
The Hornby one looks prettier but I think the Rapido its the most realistic. I do not think there is a problem with he lack of wood texture, just look at outside benches and wooden tables and then are very dull after being out in the weather for a while.
The Rapido Lion’s detail is compromised by Rapido going for weight and mechanism. To fit in motor and flywheel. Love how Hornby have tried to represent the motion gear between the frames. That is attention to detail. For me it would be all about detail so I would go for Hornby’s Lion.
Sam, I appreciate your reviews and I generally agree whole heartedly with them. In this case though, I just feel you went a little too far towards Rapido. I have purchased both Lions, as well as Hornby’s Tiger, and I am delighted to have all of them.
I agree. It does seem like Rapido have added a completely fictional chunk of metal between and below the wheel sets, which probably accommodates most of the extra weight mentioned. This would give it a huge advantage over the Hornby model in the mechanism, performance, and power category. But it doesn’t seem fair, almost like Hornby are being punished for trying to make it dimensionally accurate.
Another great comparison, Sam! Personally, for me, it's Rapido, despite their products being very expensive. But I think Rapido is best considering that well, they are a Canadian company and i'm from Canada, so it's a bit biased! 😆But another reason is because Rapido's lion wasn't... well... originally breaching copyright laws. And the total price. I do not understand how Hornby can charge so much for a model. Both are beautiful locomotives in their own right however, of course!
I am surprised you gave Quality to Rapido considering that they went for weight over detail (ie you can't see through the wheels on the Rapido). Also the wood effect on the Hornby is miles better. Rapido 4 : Hornby 2. Now as for perfomance, I would say that the Rapido Lion is just too strong,. It's pulling power isn't realistic for the era that the Lion was originally built (1837). So for performance based on realism, I'd say that Hornby is more realistic. Rapido 3 : Hornby 3 Overall I don't think there is much to choose from. If you are not an out and out pedant to accuracy and want an early looking loco with early looking wagons/carriages then the Hornby set is probably what you need as everything matches.
The Hornby "train pack" compulsion suggests it was a marketing decision to guarantee the coach sales, many Lions might just end up as static ornaments. You're definitel right about Rapido's driverless train, it looks a bit daft.
Got my Rapido Lion this week, haven’t unboxed it yet, but I know it’s going to be great. Again, main reason I got Lion is because had the option of not being stuck in a pack. If Hornby sold Rocket by itself, I would definitely buy one.
A good 3 pole motor will beat a cheap 5 pole motor hands down. 3 pole vs 5 pole is not always a given. Drop in a good decoder in the Hornby and I'm sure you will get nice slow running performance. I'm not saying it will beat the Rapido in this case, I'm just saying that 5 pole is not always better than 3 pole - depending on the motor itself.
If you want something that rolls and pull trains, the Rapido is the choice, no contest. I prefer dynamic qualities over details, if I have to do the choice. Same debate here on the GWR railcar with Dapol versus Heljan (Dapol wins for me).
A nice balanced review. I’ve got Hornby’s Tiger and now Rapido’s Lion. Both fit my layout 30’s on the LMR. Part of me gets the Hornby approach with train packs it allows one off purchases. But that brings frustration; Hornby have made a post coach but they only sell it a Rocket pack I cannot justify two Rockets. On the plus side buying your wagons allows me to mix and match rolling stock.
My prefer choice of the Lion locomotive is Rapido's version because it is made out of die cast metal which makes it very heavy and very powerful along with being reasonable priced which means that you can buy this model without the coaches but by itself Sam.
With that terrible low quality gap on the boiler, and the terrible brass boiler bands, plus thay very basic looking chassis,...the hornby is definitely the winner. Although the slow running i will admit is a disappointment
I’m tempted by the Hornby model because (i) I can’t see much of a choice in wagons from other manufacturers so the Hornby package is better value and (ii) it looks great.
The Titifield Thunderbolt antipated the silly rivalry between Hornby and Rapido scaled down tp OO gauge! It is great to see Sam's Trains taking the antithetical Beeching Axe to jumped up manufacturers who think they can sell ridiculous tosh at a high prices!
Hi Sam, I am afraid I have to say this is really biased review. Value does not mean price as you well know. You even explain that in the video, yet you give the value point to Rapido because it costs less? It you want to run this loco as a train, as most consumers watching this for advice will, Hornby is by far the better value, also please take not account the cost of the figures. I also don't think you should be judging accuracy of colour off an old photo that is unlikely to be colour accurate in the first place. In terms of colour and decoration the Rapido boiler just doesn't look the right material, and still doesn't look colour accurate anyway. I really don't understand you obsession with weight, these are models not paper weights. You don't get more model with rapido, you get exactly one model with each (actually with the figures you get more with Hornby!). If you want accurate weight the hornby one is surely closer anyway, these should not be able to haul more than a 9F, and both can certainly haul what they need to! Having said that well done to Rapido for creating a loco with such a great crawl, hopefully one day we will get motors with great crawn that still allow for underframe detail. I think in the end, one model looks leagues ahead, the other performs better, that is really all there is to it, consumers can make their own mind up based on this and price. I do think this is a bias review, for the specific reasons said, but of course take no issue with your overall opinions and conclusions which are naturally subjective. I really hope you take this feedback as it is meant (constructively). Thank you for spending your hard earned money to purchase these to help people make an informed decision, and for all the work you put into the channel, you are a valued member of the community, but as one of the most high profile please do try not to take allegiances in future. We all want a reasonable, respectful and non-toxic community and taking sides just doesn't help that. In the end, these are both manufacturers, working to make money, but also they both are a place of work for many hard working employee's who care about the outputs. A few bad decisions (titfield-gate) does not make a bad company, or indeed a bad product, and should not make one more deserving of your praise than the other.
No it isn't biased. I gave the value point to Rapido because it costs less *and* weighs almost twice as much. I'm confused that you missed this, as I stated that extremely clearly. You might not get the obsession with weight, but it's my video and I value heavy models, and so do most people. Why complain about my judgements of colour when I gave Hornby the point in that category? That was the only colour image I could show that wasn't copyrighted, but other images corroborate the point, a simple google search will reveal them. The choice of motor is not what determines the lack of underframe detail. I clearly stated that Hornby's product wasn't a bad one, but Hornby isn't culpable of a "few bad decisions", but rather a large number of terrible decisions, but hey, that is just my opinion. They have done a lot to tarnish their reputation in the past few years, and I believe it is this reason that they're on the edge of bankruptcy; money talks after all. You're conflating bias with having an opinion on which is best based on the evidence. This is wrong. I will take sides based on the behaviour and performance of the manufacturers. This is my guarantee to you, and this isn't the channel for you if you don't like it. Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Bought the Rapido as it is in 80’s condition which i have travelled behind. The only plus side for Hornby is the detail below the boiler level. I look forward to running a rake of pullmans behind Lion or all my wagons, just like the unreal thing. Thanks for the comparison Sam, it is a worth while exercise. Now to the manors that have been born that will take you several days. I do agree with your last comment of Rapido doing the job correctly, that was a big prompt not to buy the other variant.
Wonderful comparison Sam. Era one is so adorably charming. Tbh, it would be a difficult choice had we had to pick one. Since we run Märklin (3 rails), some conversion trickery would be a bridge too far as a challenge as far as we can notice. That said, what bothers us fairly much is that the colour shades of green and on the boilers on both are just too offbeat. However, since H's Lion is detailed so much better, I think we'd go for theirs and apply some dark wash on her boiler. As you said, R's is just a hair different in its advantage in your comparison. For us, H's Lion would be the preferred starting point. Each their own of course. Cheerio.
I would go with the Rapido Lion without a second thought. If a model looks nice from a distance, I'm happy. But, if I can't slowly acelarate or decelerate a locomotive, it really gets on my nerves. Performance is a big deal for me.
I feel the best Lion would be a mixture of the two. The detail and finesse of hornby's, combined with the weight, mechanism and accuracy of Rapido's. That would be a great loco.. Personally neither do it for me. I don't think rapido's looks that nice, and I'd be annoyed by how light weight an incompatible Hornby's is.. I am much more looking forward to rapido's other releases, like the Jones Goods and Metropolitan Tank.. Feel you get more loco for your money with those. Still thought, Great comparison Sam! Thank you for posting! ^^
The Hornby Rocket Mail train coaches and wagons are smaller than the Triang models. There is even a difference in size between the wagon supplied in the mail set and those sold individually a couple of years ago. I have purchased the Rapido Lion as it will haul my rake of Triang coaches nicely.
I'd pick the Rapido Lion over the Hornby one. Mostly because they didn't try to pull a fast one with regards to licensing the "Titfield Thunderbolt" variant (looking at you Hornby), primarily due to having an option of being able to purchase the locomotive alone.
When you watch the Titfield Thunderbolt film the wood grain is not noticeable on the boiler. Not sure what type of wood was used but teak or mahogany has not a distinctive grain. Great review and I am glad I ordered my Rapido one as I like to run my locos the motor is quality as opposed to the cheap Hornby one.
Hi sam I hope you are well For me hornby wins cuz nothin fell off it and it can do 2nd radius straight out the box and underframe details I know rapido UK lion had a hand by Anthony Dawson great historian Pros of rapido nem pocket I think it comes down to taste at end the day Both cracking models Only my opinions Keep safe ARP
Ahh yeah that's true - I know you did have quality problems with the Rapido, so I can understand that. The Hornby is certainly better presented too, Thanks for watching - Sam :)
I personally cannot knock either of these manufacturers for providing us, for the first time, examples of this truly historic British built locomotive. The see-thru chassis of the Hornby model I find very appealing. But it is obviously here, where Hornby have sacrificed weight (or adhesion) in favour of detail. There was no mention of whether the two models were DCC compatible, but a good decoder could iron out the poor slow running properties of the Hornby version. But from this excellent review, I have concluded that there is a clear dividing line between the two models. One has good pulling properties, whilst the other has excellent detail. The choice is for the individual. What next?!
It is a shame that one has to win over the other. I had the Hornby one on order last year until my order was cancelled that June by Kernow. So I ordered the Rapido (1980s) one. Then Hornby's suddenly appeared last Autumn. If I save up enough perhaps I will look out for a Hornby one as well. I need to check on what colour the boiler is in The Titfield Thunderbolt. I wonder if Hornby's is more correct in this instance. It is good that we have a choice. It is a shame about the horizontal gap in the Rapido model's boiler though and Hornby's does look very smart.
Yeah, both have pros and cons... it's a pity we couldn't get a Lion with Hornby's finesse, and Rapido's performance and quality! Thanks for watching - Sam :)
going off of locos being 400-500 pounds/dollars with coaches/cars, thats practically the US Steam locomotive market except that we only get locos, I dont know how UK manufacturers can have 3 new steam locos every year for practically 200USD where the US gets one new steamer a year and its usually 300-600 USD.
Got to say I'm quite surprised that the Hornby details were far and above better than Rapido. Granted I don't see much in the way of Hornby on this side of the pond but from watching your videos I always get the impression that Hornby is closer to Bachmann maybe even a tiny step below as far as details and so forth. I'm guessing detail and quality are completely separate in your view too, while sure Rapido is heavier and feels beefier, those gaps in the model, that sloppy paint for the bands which you even seen the rivets(?) getting painted that "gold" color from sloppy work should be points against Rapido as far as quality... at least in my view. That said I would take old photos kind of tongue in cheek as far as comparing color accuracy though. Overall though good trains, and I don't think anyone would really be upset about either one.
It's a tricky area - there certainly is some overlap between my review categories, so I try to use my discretion to keep things fair. If I criticise something in one category, I generally won't penalise again for it in another category unless it's egregious. So in this case the issues with the boiler and decoration went under the detail category, as the quality was excellent in all other areas. Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Hornby dose nail the aesthetic, if not accuracy. like simcade to sim racing game it looks the part without exactly performing it. hmm that might explain continued success of Hornby in general. Glad to see the versus series continue there is no substitute to bumper to bumper contest. If mr. Sam's trains wishes to make the traction challange funnier maybe a pushing contest on separatley powered tracks isolated in middle by err plastic or cardboard or whatever just a stright up duel you knnow .) Similarly maybe have side view for eiteher speed or crawl (whichever works beter) tho that may require a different livery or some other distinction at a glance). very nice video as always bowman be praised it continues to be this fun to watch.
Decent overall comparison video here Sam, like I said in your review though there will always be positives and negatives for each one although in my opinion the inclusion of rolling stock in the hornby one I think is more positive than negative because at the moment no other manufacturer makes rolling stock but like I also said in your review lion is one of the few early locomotives I would consider getting in model form.
I think having the option of a Lion train pack is good, but the key word is "option". If I already have those coaches and just want Lion, why should I have to pay the extra costs when I just wanted the locomotive? Have the train pack, but also have the singular engine. With Rapido, you can either get the Titfield pack or just the engine.
Yeah I'd have to agree that it's better to have the option, and not have the rolling stock forced on you. I already had coaches from rocket, so really I had to waste money to buy coaches that I didn't want just to get the Hornby Lion... and I assume Hornby intended it that way Thanks for watching - Sam :)
It's just such a shame that the Rapido model has that big line across the boiler I wish there was a way to fix it, it's so distracting when looking up close
Rapido deserve to win. They have a certain business ethic that Hornby does not; remember that Hornby copied the Thunderbolt concept and then had to backtrack when it became apparent they’d infringed copyright.
Side by side as you run them, Rapido looks good. The only time I see Hornby as better is the crew included and, in a derailment, the valve gear. That would be the simple discretion for me. But, the power and loyalty from me would honour Rapido.
I ordered the 80s Rapido Lion and it is on it's way to Canada from Hattons. I am bit disappointed to find out about that giant chassis block and the split in the boiler though.
dunno what it looks like on an actual model, but on the video, the big gap in the Rapido boiler really wrecked the look of it for me. that plus the chassis block - once it's pointed out you cant see through the Rapido wheels, I noticed it every time.
Hi Sam. I would agree that Hornby's offering is the more pleasing one. I might have to disagree about the forced inclusion of the carriages. In terms of era, the purchase of any loco from the later eras would not usually need to come with bundled coaches as the purchaser would likely have any number of appropriate coaches already in their possession. Not so likely for such early eras as Lion. Horses for courses.
It occurs that you raised an interesting question as to what exactly both Hornby and Rapido have produced here, Radio's APT-E was exactly that, a time specific prototype, as Lion appears in its 1930s guise and Tiger still later, what we really have is no more than a "celebratory" re-enactment, in effect useless as an Era I item in the spirit of a commercialised Mike Sharman (now working inside valve gear from any manufacture would be something to shout about). It appears that neither manufacturer have taken the opportunity to open up Era I which I think is a pity, Nice models as they are, what actual serious use are they?
Hi Sam, great video as always. I feel there is another level to look at - which is tech. Rapido offers sound where as I dont believe Hornby does for this loco (?).
Your review basically echoes my own thoughts on these two models. Hornby's model is slightly better looking (at least when stationary) although the colouring is a touch too bright, it would probably look great sitting in a display cabinet, whereas Rapido's is probably the better one for actually using. I would have been more tempted by Hornby's Lion if they either hadn't bundled it in a pack, or if they had given the 1st Class carriages different names to the other packs (Experience is also in the R3809 pack, and Traveller is in the upcoming R30090 pack). To be honest if they had actually given the carriages different names I probably would have bought the pack. My main issue these days with Hornby's models is not the models themselves but Hornby the company. Ever since Hornby started messing around with the retailers I've just lost faith with the company, why should I bother to pre-order a Hornby model, when I can't guarantee that the pre-order will be honoured. Then they started trying to bully smaller manufacturers like Rails of Sheffield with the Terrier, or Hattons with the Generic Coaches, culminating in the quite frankly ludicrous business with the Titfield Thunderbolt. They even did it with Heljan and the new TT gauge, causing them to back out of the scale (at least for now). And as for Hornby marketing their Lion as era 1, not only is that wrong because of the details you mentioned, as well as the 1930s 'restoration', but also because there's good reason to believe that today's Lion and the L&MR Lion are not in fact the same locomotive. Furthermore, regardless of her actual identity, we know for a fact that her boiler dates from 1865 (from Locomotive No.149, a plate of which is still on the boiler back-head), which makes Hornby's decision to use Lion as a basis for a model of Tiger even more laughable. Also the tender Lion is currently using is an ex-Furness Railway's tender cut-down, so about the only parts of Lion that are 'Era 1' are her cylinders, valve gear, crank wheel set and frames.
Click PLAY I have designed my future layout and it will NOT have Steam but I will rate these two as I watch Repido looks better in the finish and as my layout will inside a table under glass it is the pick for me Yes, Repido is my Winner
I think Hornby's looks a lot nicer, as the colours are much brighter, and especially the gold looks amazing. I like the three coaches, but the Rapido I can buy separately, so I don't have to pool up as much money at once. Visually, I'd say Hornby. In practice, Raipdo's offering is much, much better. 50% more "model" for less than Hornby's pack and four times the power of the Hornby. I don't mind inaccuracies too much. Until now, it's a tough decision, Rapido's is more realistic and Hornby's looks nicer, but the performance does it for me. An era 1 loco must be able to go at slow speeds, and unfortunately Hornby's can't. I can run Rapido's at much more realistic speeds. Not only that but I can couple it to normal wagons as well so I can pull stuff until I get some L&MR coaches. Combine the greater running with the fact that I find Rapido a much "nicer" company and didn't try to steal the rights makes it an easy decision for me what model to buy, or rather, I already ordered one. I was looking forward to your video, Sam and you didn't disappoint. Well worth the wait for Rapido.
Hey Sam could you help me out with something that has puzzled me for some time now. I recently purchased a Tri-ang Flying Scotsman that contained no motor. My plan is to restore the locomotive to full working order but i'm struggling to find the correct motor for the engine. Do you know what motor is the right motor which would have been in the engine if it was a running locomotive? It would be greatly appriciated.
Sure! If your scotsman has a brass coloured driving gear you need one of these: www.ebay.co.uk/itm/314544097883 If the loco has a silvery coloured gear, you need one of these: www.ebay.co.uk/itm/353688576092 Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Hornby tried and utterly failed to delivery on a Lion to try to steal Rapido’s thunder. There’s a certain “ick” to knowing its troubled production history while Rapido delivered on their own version and gracefully enters the UK market. They’re the best for a reason and try to let performance match the looks.
Glad I made the right choice off your review last week and opted for the Rapido version. What a gorgeous model and what a beast when it comes to pulling power! If you're after a shelf queen, then yes, absolutely the Hornby one is the one for you. If you want a beautiful model that works brilliantly then the Rapido one is king.
Oh, a duel, how very delightful.
I'm glad you approve! :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
😂
Love the reference
A duel? More like a slaughter.
Great reference 🙂
The fact that Rapido has lots of metal adding its weight would steer me towards Hornby.
Less chance of any mazak rot later on.
The Hornby one looks loads better as well.
The fact you get the coaches with the Hornby one isn't an issue as you will have to buy the coaches anyway.
Hornby all the way ... how many times do you need to crawl anyway.
The Hornby one looks prettier but I think the Rapido its the most realistic. I do not think there is a problem with he lack of wood texture, just look at outside benches and wooden tables and then are very dull after being out in the weather for a while.
Hi, for me I'd be buying the Hornby one, no excuse for the body gaps and rough bands.
The Rapido Lion’s detail is compromised by Rapido going for weight and mechanism. To fit in motor and flywheel. Love how Hornby have tried to represent the motion gear between the frames. That is attention to detail. For me it would be all about detail so I would go for Hornby’s Lion.
Yeah that is fair to say - particularly on the underframe as you say,
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Sam, I appreciate your reviews and I generally agree whole heartedly with them. In this case though, I just feel you went a little too far towards Rapido. I have purchased both Lions, as well as Hornby’s Tiger, and I am delighted to have all of them.
I agree. It does seem like Rapido have added a completely fictional chunk of metal between and below the wheel sets, which probably accommodates most of the extra weight mentioned. This would give it a huge advantage over the Hornby model in the mechanism, performance, and power category. But it doesn’t seem fair, almost like Hornby are being punished for trying to make it dimensionally accurate.
Another great comparison, Sam! Personally, for me, it's Rapido, despite their products being very expensive. But I think Rapido is best considering that well, they are a Canadian company and i'm from Canada, so it's a bit biased! 😆But another reason is because Rapido's lion wasn't... well... originally breaching copyright laws. And the total price. I do not understand how Hornby can charge so much for a model. Both are beautiful locomotives in their own right however, of course!
Thanks for sharing - yeah very true, they played by the rules and acted fairly, props to Rapido for that!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Hornby weren't breaching copyright laws making Lion though.
@@thebritfarmer ik, but their very cool very epic 100% legal Titfield Thunderbolt packs were what I was referring to
Come on Sam, Tug-of-War pull-off Competition until the motor Catches on Fire !🔥
I am surprised you gave Quality to Rapido considering that they went for weight over detail (ie you can't see through the wheels on the Rapido). Also the wood effect on the Hornby is miles better. Rapido 4 : Hornby 2.
Now as for perfomance, I would say that the Rapido Lion is just too strong,. It's pulling power isn't realistic for the era that the Lion was originally built (1837). So for performance based on realism, I'd say that Hornby is more realistic. Rapido 3 : Hornby 3
Overall I don't think there is much to choose from. If you are not an out and out pedant to accuracy and want an early looking loco with early looking wagons/carriages then the Hornby set is probably what you need as everything matches.
The Hornby "train pack" compulsion suggests it was a marketing decision to guarantee the coach sales, many Lions might just end up as static ornaments.
You're definitel right about Rapido's driverless train, it looks a bit daft.
I'm glad you brought up the "display" or "run" argument.
I've started looking at more display models due to lack of space.
Got my Rapido Lion this week, haven’t unboxed it yet, but I know it’s going to be great.
Again, main reason I got Lion is because had the option of not being stuck in a pack. If Hornby sold Rocket by itself, I would definitely buy one.
Ooh enjoy - hopefully you enjoy yours as much as I did mine!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
A good 3 pole motor will beat a cheap 5 pole motor hands down. 3 pole vs 5 pole is not always a given. Drop in a good decoder in the Hornby and I'm sure you will get nice slow running performance. I'm not saying it will beat the Rapido in this case, I'm just saying that 5 pole is not always better than 3 pole - depending on the motor itself.
I'm really surprised about the differences Sam, despite them being the same loco.
Cheers Jasper & Willow
Yeah me too - really surprising aren't they?
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
I have the Hornby on display and it looks great.🇦🇺🇬🇧👍
It is worth mentioning, if you’re pulling prototypical trains, you probably won’t need the extra pulling power.
That is true, but the extra weight certainly doesn't hurt, and the quality of the model is much improved as a result!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
If you want something that rolls and pull trains, the Rapido is the choice, no contest. I prefer dynamic qualities over details, if I have to do the choice. Same debate here on the GWR railcar with Dapol versus Heljan (Dapol wins for me).
For me the couplings clinch it, as the Rapido version gives you more rake running options on your layout!
Yep exactly - bringing the best of both worlds was a fantastic move by Rapido!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
“I AM THE ORIGINAL “ “NO I AM!””I AM THE BEST!” “NO NO NO!”
just seems like a consversation with the two.
A nice balanced review. I’ve got Hornby’s Tiger and now Rapido’s Lion. Both fit my layout 30’s on the LMR. Part of me gets the Hornby approach with train packs it allows one off purchases. But that brings frustration; Hornby have made a post coach but they only sell it a Rocket pack I cannot justify two Rockets. On the plus side buying your wagons allows me to mix and match rolling stock.
Been waiting for this one
Thank you! Hope you like :D
My prefer choice of the Lion locomotive is Rapido's version because it is made out of die cast metal which makes it very heavy and very powerful along with being reasonable priced which means that you can buy this model without the coaches but by itself Sam.
Yeah that's certainly fair - the metal construction makes it the better quality of the two!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
As long as the dreaded mazak curse does not strike in a few years' time. I really hope it does not. @@SamsTrains
@@jeffreysmith156oh yeah, everyone has forgotten about that mazak rot problem.
That crack in the boiler is an eyesore.
With that terrible low quality gap on the boiler, and the terrible brass boiler bands, plus thay very basic looking chassis,...the hornby is definitely the winner. Although the slow running i will admit is a disappointment
I’m tempted by the Hornby model because (i) I can’t see much of a choice in wagons from other manufacturers so the Hornby package is better value and (ii) it looks great.
True, if you want the coaches, the Hornby one is a more attractive option!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
I need something to pull those coal wagons you sold me 😎
The Titifield Thunderbolt antipated the silly rivalry between Hornby and Rapido scaled down tp OO gauge! It is great to see Sam's Trains taking the antithetical Beeching Axe to jumped up manufacturers who think they can sell ridiculous tosh at a high prices!
Thanks for sharing Allen!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Hi Sam, I am afraid I have to say this is really biased review. Value does not mean price as you well know. You even explain that in the video, yet you give the value point to Rapido because it costs less? It you want to run this loco as a train, as most consumers watching this for advice will, Hornby is by far the better value, also please take not account the cost of the figures. I also don't think you should be judging accuracy of colour off an old photo that is unlikely to be colour accurate in the first place. In terms of colour and decoration the Rapido boiler just doesn't look the right material, and still doesn't look colour accurate anyway. I really don't understand you obsession with weight, these are models not paper weights. You don't get more model with rapido, you get exactly one model with each (actually with the figures you get more with Hornby!). If you want accurate weight the hornby one is surely closer anyway, these should not be able to haul more than a 9F, and both can certainly haul what they need to! Having said that well done to Rapido for creating a loco with such a great crawl, hopefully one day we will get motors with great crawn that still allow for underframe detail. I think in the end, one model looks leagues ahead, the other performs better, that is really all there is to it, consumers can make their own mind up based on this and price. I do think this is a bias review, for the specific reasons said, but of course take no issue with your overall opinions and conclusions which are naturally subjective. I really hope you take this feedback as it is meant (constructively). Thank you for spending your hard earned money to purchase these to help people make an informed decision, and for all the work you put into the channel, you are a valued member of the community, but as one of the most high profile please do try not to take allegiances in future. We all want a reasonable, respectful and non-toxic community and taking sides just doesn't help that. In the end, these are both manufacturers, working to make money, but also they both are a place of work for many hard working employee's who care about the outputs. A few bad decisions (titfield-gate) does not make a bad company, or indeed a bad product, and should not make one more deserving of your praise than the other.
No it isn't biased. I gave the value point to Rapido because it costs less *and* weighs almost twice as much. I'm confused that you missed this, as I stated that extremely clearly. You might not get the obsession with weight, but it's my video and I value heavy models, and so do most people.
Why complain about my judgements of colour when I gave Hornby the point in that category? That was the only colour image I could show that wasn't copyrighted, but other images corroborate the point, a simple google search will reveal them.
The choice of motor is not what determines the lack of underframe detail.
I clearly stated that Hornby's product wasn't a bad one, but Hornby isn't culpable of a "few bad decisions", but rather a large number of terrible decisions, but hey, that is just my opinion. They have done a lot to tarnish their reputation in the past few years, and I believe it is this reason that they're on the edge of bankruptcy; money talks after all.
You're conflating bias with having an opinion on which is best based on the evidence. This is wrong. I will take sides based on the behaviour and performance of the manufacturers. This is my guarantee to you, and this isn't the channel for you if you don't like it.
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
You should make a series where you buy preownd loco and upgrade them with lamps and new names and other stuff
That'd be awesome!
Agreed
That could be cool - nice idea Alex! :D
@@SamsTrains thx
Can't wait for the accurascale vs dapol manor , or the accurascale vs bachmann class 37 :)
Bought the Rapido as it is in 80’s condition which i have travelled behind. The only plus side for Hornby is the detail below the boiler level. I look forward to running a rake of pullmans behind Lion or all my wagons, just like the unreal thing. Thanks for the comparison Sam, it is a worth while exercise. Now to the manors that have been born that will take you several days.
I do agree with your last comment of Rapido doing the job correctly, that was a big prompt not to buy the other variant.
Wonderful comparison Sam. Era one is so adorably charming. Tbh, it would be a difficult choice had we had to pick one. Since we run Märklin (3 rails), some conversion trickery would be a bridge too far as a challenge as far as we can notice. That said, what bothers us fairly much is that the colour shades of green and on the boilers on both are just too offbeat. However, since H's Lion is detailed so much better, I think we'd go for theirs and apply some dark wash on her boiler. As you said, R's is just a hair different in its advantage in your comparison. For us, H's Lion would be the preferred starting point. Each their own of course. Cheerio.
You can try to get the Adler or the Spanisch Brötli as an alternative from Märklin, or the Saxonia by Piko if you want something that looks like these
Do bear in mind Lion in either model is not "Era 1". It's Era 3"
@@ivovanzon164 Of course. Der Adler looks very similar (Stephenson's design), she is different from Planet, Tiger, Lion, etc though.
@@AnthonyDawsonHistory Originally built during era 1, resurrected during era 3 with alternations... We consider her era 1 😉 Each their own of course.
Would love to see this model of Lion in 0 Gauge.
Wow wouldn't that be something? Come on Dapol!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
I would go with the Rapido Lion without a second thought. If a model looks nice from a distance, I'm happy. But, if I can't slowly acelarate or decelerate a locomotive, it really gets on my nerves. Performance is a big deal for me.
Thanks for sharing - that's right, the performance of the Rapido is dramatically better!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
No problem! Keep making great content! 🙂
Awesome video Sam's trains
Thanks Brian! :D
@@SamsTrains you're welcome 😊 buddy 😊
I feel the best Lion would be a mixture of the two. The detail and finesse of hornby's, combined with the weight, mechanism and accuracy of Rapido's. That would be a great loco.. Personally neither do it for me. I don't think rapido's looks that nice, and I'd be annoyed by how light weight an incompatible Hornby's is.. I am much more looking forward to rapido's other releases, like the Jones Goods and Metropolitan Tank.. Feel you get more loco for your money with those. Still thought, Great comparison Sam! Thank you for posting! ^^
Yes that's absolutely true - I think this too!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Maybe you could make the Hornby loco darker by just weathering it
Yeah a repaint is possible for sure!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Hi Sam, Nice review , and very just, as you say it's Rapido hands down , All the best Brian 😃
Thanks a lot Brian - yeah overall it's not too hard to decide!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
The Hornby Rocket Mail train coaches and wagons are smaller than the Triang models.
There is even a difference in size between the wagon supplied in the mail set and those sold individually a couple of years ago.
I have purchased the Rapido Lion as it will haul my rake of Triang coaches nicely.
I'd pick the Rapido Lion over the Hornby one. Mostly because they didn't try to pull a fast one with regards to licensing the "Titfield Thunderbolt" variant (looking at you Hornby), primarily due to having an option of being able to purchase the locomotive alone.
When you watch the Titfield Thunderbolt film the wood grain is not noticeable on the boiler. Not sure what type of wood was used but teak or mahogany has not a distinctive grain. Great review and I am glad I ordered my Rapido one as I like to run my locos the motor is quality as opposed to the cheap Hornby one.
Round two 😤😤fight!!
hahaha!! :D
Another hornby bashing from Sam’s trains!
Hi sam
I hope you are well
For me hornby wins cuz nothin fell off it and it can do 2nd radius straight out the box and underframe details
I know rapido UK lion had a hand by Anthony Dawson great historian
Pros of rapido nem pocket
I think it comes down to taste at end the day
Both cracking models
Only my opinions
Keep safe ARP
Ahh yeah that's true - I know you did have quality problems with the Rapido, so I can understand that. The Hornby is certainly better presented too,
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
@@SamsTrainsstill have more issues with rapido lion
Am at the point now do I ask for my money back and walk away from it😊
Sam, may i suggest using canned air or something similar to blow your models off before the video?
I personally cannot knock either of these manufacturers for providing us, for the first time, examples of this truly historic British built locomotive.
The see-thru chassis of the Hornby model I find very appealing. But it is obviously here, where Hornby have sacrificed weight (or adhesion) in favour of detail. There was no mention of whether the two models were DCC compatible, but a good decoder could iron out the poor slow running properties of the Hornby version. But from this excellent review, I have concluded that there is a clear dividing line between the two models. One has good pulling properties, whilst the other has excellent detail. The choice is for the individual. What next?!
It is a shame that one has to win over the other. I had the Hornby one on order last year until my order was cancelled that June by Kernow. So I ordered the Rapido (1980s) one. Then Hornby's suddenly appeared last Autumn.
If I save up enough perhaps I will look out for a Hornby one as well.
I need to check on what colour the boiler is in The Titfield Thunderbolt. I wonder if Hornby's is more correct in this instance.
It is good that we have a choice. It is a shame about the horizontal gap in the Rapido model's boiler though and Hornby's does look very smart.
Yeah, both have pros and cons... it's a pity we couldn't get a Lion with Hornby's finesse, and Rapido's performance and quality!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
For me the Rapido wins as it’s simply the best runner and can actually pull a decent rake of coaches. And look good doing it.
Rapido Lion is the best for most things. The Hornby one might be good if you wanted to make your own railway museum.
Both are good model locos. Love seeing them on the joint tracks at the same time. Can we have an era 1 layout? Thanks for the video.
Thank you! Yeah I'd love to have an Era 1 layout!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
going off of locos being 400-500 pounds/dollars with coaches/cars, thats practically the US Steam locomotive market except that we only get locos, I dont know how UK manufacturers can have 3 new steam locos every year for practically 200USD where the US gets one new steamer a year and its usually 300-600 USD.
Why don't you compare Dapol Torquay Manor with Bachmann Broome Manor? Basically, it's Dapol Manor vs. Bachmann Manor.
And Accura now!
@@timbervalleyproductions When will the SDJR Fairburn Tank be released? Don’t give away this fairburn tank video please.
That could be fun - I am waiting for the accura!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Hornby for me
The gaps and crack in the boiler in rapidos just doesn't do it for me
I know - I can understand that being a dealbreaker for some!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Got to say I'm quite surprised that the Hornby details were far and above better than Rapido. Granted I don't see much in the way of Hornby on this side of the pond but from watching your videos I always get the impression that Hornby is closer to Bachmann maybe even a tiny step below as far as details and so forth. I'm guessing detail and quality are completely separate in your view too, while sure Rapido is heavier and feels beefier, those gaps in the model, that sloppy paint for the bands which you even seen the rivets(?) getting painted that "gold" color from sloppy work should be points against Rapido as far as quality... at least in my view. That said I would take old photos kind of tongue in cheek as far as comparing color accuracy though. Overall though good trains, and I don't think anyone would really be upset about either one.
It's a tricky area - there certainly is some overlap between my review categories, so I try to use my discretion to keep things fair. If I criticise something in one category, I generally won't penalise again for it in another category unless it's egregious. So in this case the issues with the boiler and decoration went under the detail category, as the quality was excellent in all other areas.
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Really enjoyed today’s video Sam I would say the rapido one looks better
Hornby dose nail the aesthetic, if not accuracy. like simcade to sim racing game it looks the part without exactly performing it.
hmm that might explain continued success of Hornby in general.
Glad to see the versus series continue there is no substitute to bumper to bumper contest.
If mr. Sam's trains wishes to make the traction challange funnier maybe a pushing contest on separatley powered tracks isolated in middle by err plastic or cardboard or whatever just a stright up duel you knnow .)
Similarly maybe have side view for eiteher speed or crawl (whichever works beter) tho that may require a different livery or some other distinction at a glance).
very nice video as always bowman be praised it continues to be this fun to watch.
Amazing comparison
Thanks Justin! :D
If rapidos lion didn’t have that crack between the boiler pieces I’d def say the rapido is superior to the hornby
Decent overall comparison video here Sam, like I said in your review though there will always be positives and negatives for each one although in my opinion the inclusion of rolling stock in the hornby one I think is more positive than negative because at the moment no other manufacturer makes rolling stock but like I also said in your review lion is one of the few early locomotives I would consider getting in model form.
I think having the option of a Lion train pack is good, but the key word is "option".
If I already have those coaches and just want Lion, why should I have to pay the extra costs when I just wanted the locomotive? Have the train pack, but also have the singular engine. With Rapido, you can either get the Titfield pack or just the engine.
Yeah I'd have to agree that it's better to have the option, and not have the rolling stock forced on you. I already had coaches from rocket, so really I had to waste money to buy coaches that I didn't want just to get the Hornby Lion... and I assume Hornby intended it that way
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
It's just such a shame that the Rapido model has that big line across the boiler I wish there was a way to fix it, it's so distracting when looking up close
I know - it's so noticeable isn't it? Quite surprised they didn't do something about that, having seen Hornby's!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Rapido deserve to win. They have a certain business ethic that Hornby does not; remember that Hornby copied the Thunderbolt concept and then had to backtrack when it became apparent they’d infringed copyright.
Well I ended up getting both when they went on sale... Plus I have a kit version and the Titfield one on order...
Is there a category on which runs best on carpet? ;-) In all seriousness great test and comparison between these two models, very informative.
A very good Comparison but I have already gone for the Hornby Lion Thanks - which I quite like 🙂🚂🚂🚂
Sure! That's not a bad decision at all - both models are perfectly good, and both have their pros and cons as you can see!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Side by side as you run them, Rapido looks good. The only time I see Hornby as better is the crew included and, in a derailment, the valve gear. That would be the simple discretion for me. But, the power and loyalty from me would honour Rapido.
For me Sam it has to be the Rapido Lion, I absolutely love it.
Cheers Jasper & willow
Thanks for sharing - yeah it's awesome isn't it? :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
How about a Hornby tiger and Rapido lion… good combo to buy
11:16 looks like the hornby lion had some rear wheel issues, cant remember if this was pointed out in the original review
I ordered the 80s Rapido Lion and it is on it's way to Canada from Hattons. I am bit disappointed to find out about that giant chassis block and the split in the boiler though.
dunno what it looks like on an actual model,
but on the video, the big gap in the Rapido boiler really wrecked the look of it for me.
that plus the chassis block - once it's pointed out you cant see through the Rapido wheels, I noticed it every time.
looks like sam really found the lion 'king'!
haha yeah! :D
Sam do you think Rapido should make Fowler’s Ghost
Cool video thanks lee
Thanks Lee! :D
I thought that 50 percent speed was too dangerous for it and it would break are u sure that it’s safe to do that? If I may.
Awesome video - Rapido for me! And the Manors are in the wild...
Thank you so much! Ahh excellent - I can't wait!! :D
Hi Sam. I would agree that Hornby's offering is the more pleasing one. I might have to disagree about the forced inclusion of the carriages. In terms of era, the purchase of any loco from the later eras would not usually need to come with bundled coaches as the purchaser would likely have any number of appropriate coaches already in their possession. Not so likely for such early eras as Lion. Horses for courses.
Wow was just about to get a lion now I know which one to get totally agree with your duel Sam thanks mate never miss your vid’s big fan👍👍
sam your anti hornby bias is getting worse
It occurs that you raised an interesting question as to what exactly both Hornby and Rapido have produced here, Radio's APT-E was exactly that, a time specific prototype, as Lion appears in its 1930s guise and Tiger still later, what we really have is no more than a "celebratory" re-enactment, in effect useless as an Era I item in the spirit of a commercialised Mike Sharman (now working inside valve gear from any manufacture would be something to shout about). It appears that neither manufacturer have taken the opportunity to open up Era I which I think is a pity, Nice models as they are, what actual serious use are they?
Does Rapido make, or plan to make any appropriate rolling stock for the Lion?
Hi Sam, great video as always. I feel there is another level to look at - which is tech. Rapido offers sound where as I dont believe Hornby does for this loco (?).
Your review basically echoes my own thoughts on these two models.
Hornby's model is slightly better looking (at least when stationary) although the colouring is a touch too bright, it would probably look great sitting in a display cabinet, whereas Rapido's is probably the better one for actually using.
I would have been more tempted by Hornby's Lion if they either hadn't bundled it in a pack, or if they had given the 1st Class carriages different names to the other packs (Experience is also in the R3809 pack, and Traveller is in the upcoming R30090 pack). To be honest if they had actually given the carriages different names I probably would have bought the pack.
My main issue these days with Hornby's models is not the models themselves but Hornby the company. Ever since Hornby started messing around with the retailers I've just lost faith with the company, why should I bother to pre-order a Hornby model, when I can't guarantee that the pre-order will be honoured. Then they started trying to bully smaller manufacturers like Rails of Sheffield with the Terrier, or Hattons with the Generic Coaches, culminating in the quite frankly ludicrous business with the Titfield Thunderbolt. They even did it with Heljan and the new TT gauge, causing them to back out of the scale (at least for now).
And as for Hornby marketing their Lion as era 1, not only is that wrong because of the details you mentioned, as well as the 1930s 'restoration', but also because there's good reason to believe that today's Lion and the L&MR Lion are not in fact the same locomotive. Furthermore, regardless of her actual identity, we know for a fact that her boiler dates from 1865 (from Locomotive No.149, a plate of which is still on the boiler back-head), which makes Hornby's decision to use Lion as a basis for a model of Tiger even more laughable. Also the tender Lion is currently using is an ex-Furness Railway's tender cut-down, so about the only parts of Lion that are 'Era 1' are her cylinders, valve gear, crank wheel set and frames.
Click PLAY
I have designed my future layout and it will NOT have Steam
but I will rate these two as I watch
Repido looks better in the finish and as my layout will inside a table under glass
it is the pick for me
Yes, Repido is my Winner
Which lion can roar better
haha I guess Hornby's is louder ;D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
It would be very interesting Sam to see you compare dapol's manor with accurascale's manor when they come out.
Cheers Jasper & Willow
They're out now.
It will be really interesting indeed! :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
can the rapido version couple to the hornby versions coaches?
Sam could you make aspect signals on a 3d printer if yes how much would you charge for making them
I think Hornby's looks a lot nicer, as the colours are much brighter, and especially the gold looks amazing. I like the three coaches, but the Rapido I can buy separately, so I don't have to pool up as much money at once. Visually, I'd say Hornby. In practice, Raipdo's offering is much, much better. 50% more "model" for less than Hornby's pack and four times the power of the Hornby. I don't mind inaccuracies too much. Until now, it's a tough decision, Rapido's is more realistic and Hornby's looks nicer, but the performance does it for me. An era 1 loco must be able to go at slow speeds, and unfortunately Hornby's can't. I can run Rapido's at much more realistic speeds. Not only that but I can couple it to normal wagons as well so I can pull stuff until I get some L&MR coaches. Combine the greater running with the fact that I find Rapido a much "nicer" company and didn't try to steal the rights makes it an easy decision for me what model to buy, or rather, I already ordered one. I was looking forward to your video, Sam and you didn't disappoint. Well worth the wait for Rapido.
Hey Sam could you help me out with something that has puzzled me for some time now. I recently purchased a Tri-ang Flying Scotsman that contained no motor. My plan is to restore the locomotive to full working order but i'm struggling to find the correct motor for the engine. Do you know what motor is the right motor which would have been in the engine if it was a running locomotive? It would be greatly appriciated.
Sure! If your scotsman has a brass coloured driving gear you need one of these:
www.ebay.co.uk/itm/314544097883
If the loco has a silvery coloured gear, you need one of these:
www.ebay.co.uk/itm/353688576092
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Another great video Sam 💯
I feel like Value should go last, because how well the model did in all the other categories influances value.
If Hornby sold the loco separately I bet they'd charge £200
A4 many header pls
Hornby tried and utterly failed to delivery on a Lion to try to steal Rapido’s thunder. There’s a certain “ick” to knowing its troubled production history while Rapido delivered on their own version and gracefully enters the UK market. They’re the best for a reason and try to let performance match the looks.
Glad I made the right choice off your review last week and opted for the Rapido version. What a gorgeous model and what a beast when it comes to pulling power! If you're after a shelf queen, then yes, absolutely the Hornby one is the one for you. If you want a beautiful model that works brilliantly then the Rapido one is king.
Love your channel Sam, karate Tim 🥋👍
Hi Sam
Hello!
Brilliant video😊👍
Thanks Sam :D
they look alike but there is much difference overall and Rapido deserve the Win
Yep it's the Rapido for me to i think 🤔 😊 thanks sam 👍 great video my friend 👍
Accurascale vs Dapol Manor please
Now how about a comparison between your lion an rapido's