Witchcraft for me is very similar to cooking. Just because I want to learn doesn't mean I should get to see your heirloom cookbook that has been passed down for generations or be taught your perfected masterpiece. However, there should be some basics taught to keep people from burning their house down or hurting themselves or others.
My only real problem with gatekeepers is when they tell you you can't do something when it's an open practice. I totally get gatekeepers of closed practices.
I think there is a huge difference between keeping private things private and gatekeeping. You're right, it's a term that gets used in the wrong context far too often. People should not feel entitled to every aspect of someone's life or practice. And closed practices shouldn't even get dragged into the conversation. It's so obnoxious that people (especially White folks) claim closed practices to be "gatekeeping" when it's really marginalized people protecting themselves.
Thank you so much! I'm new to Norse paganism and I have seen alot of different views on this. This is most accurate to what I believe. I'm still learning but I plan to learn more. I've never been happier. I've recently gotten my first Mjolnir necklace and my main God's at the moment are Odin, Thor and my goddess is Freyja. I'm sure later on I'll take on worshiping more God's and Goddesses. I can't openly have an alter and do rituals yet because my parent's are very Christian and out of respect to them. I plan to move in with my boyfriend some time in the next 2 years. He's very supportive and curious about my beliefs. I'm much happier with my beliefs. I've always felt connected to the Norse pagan panteon but growing up in a strict Christian household I was always so afraid to dive deep into it. I've recently overcome my fear and my mother is actually very supportive. I've given my first offering to Thor the other day. I have very worried I'd not do it properly but I didn't have much to give. I just had the feeling Thor wanted some. I've been following you for awhile and I've learned alot. Thank you so much for sharing with us. I don't know where I'd be if I hadn't found you
Thank you so much not heard the term gatekeeping in terms of witchcraft community. So many important points you raised. A sacred practice that preserves a culture can't just be "handed over" in a social media post. "I'll show you mine if you show me yours" if that makes sense. I need to go very slowly reclaiming and finding my mixed cultural lineages its a slow healing process for me and not one to rush.
You're a wonderful person and I know about your point of view, it's sad how now a days in "social media" people think that because someone is sharing part of their knowledge on line they have no right to Privacy, social media sharks behave as if no one has a right to Privacy from their prying eyes anymore when in fact everyone has a right to Privacy.
No one closes a practice because they want to but because they have to to protect themselves and their community. It could be so wonderful to share my craft with people who I can trust will understand and respect me and my culture but that's a perfect world that doesnt exist.
Urgh gatekeeping!! I had this with EVERYTHING from Photography to Witchcraft. Only just got back into studying witchcraft after finding out that SOME folk lied to me stating "males can't be witches!" IF I knew we could be witches I'd have started AGES ago!! All that time lost because I listened to the wrong people!! But as a wise witch once told me "you are never to old to start again"
I think the problem is, that a lot of new practitioners wanted to get guided all the time and dont want to put the afford into a topic...seeing this all the time in Discord servers and as soon as ypu stop the information-tsunami they are demanding, you are called a gate keeper.... seeing this for over 2 years now on almost a daily basis 😐🤷🏻♀️ i love to share, but im not your nanny on your spiritual journey all the time
I'm semi part of a closed practise, meaning I do like to learn from them but I can't bring myself to only follow their traditions and nothing else. One thing I like is that you can pick and choose what initiations you want to do, you just gotta have money and time to go there. It's a buddhist lineage so everyone is really kind and all help each other so if you can't afford to pay for a room or something there, you can pay by working in the kitchen or something. Overall it is beautiful to be surrounded by likeminded people but I have two big issues: the people who go there are often people who used to be christians/muslims and still hold on to the "praying to someone" and treating someone like a god instead of just a person you can learn from. If you tell those people what you can do, they won't believe you because you're not a lama. Yet they listen to their lama talk about how they too can gain skills and power, quite funny and also sad. But then another thing that kind of bothers me as someone who likes to research before I get myself into something: they only give you bits of info at a time. it's for your safety and they will only give you info you can process but it definitely can be frustrating to have questions be answered by "yaou´re not ready yet"/ "you need to finish xyz process first" I totally get it but I like to have the full picture before committing to something that´s gonna take me years to complete. I know another issue is also with mantras that you should only do at a certain level and what not but I'd like to just know everything story wise about a special interest I developed yet I can't xD
Im American and a huge huge problem here is people appropriating and overstepping boundaries when it comes to closed indigenous practices. I always hear people say "you cant own nature" "magic is for everyone" and its so ignorant and tone deaf. I have numerous indigenous witch friends and it I hear how much it hurts them. Its completely a respect thing. White people in particular love to use minorities culture for their own gain. Its not about "owning nature". It's about the heinous and evil way the American government shut indigenous people out from their own practices until they realized they could profit off of it on top of the straight up respect for one's culture. It will never be okay.
Seems an American thing?Perhaps because America is more culturally mixed with so many who are lost to the older traditions left behind. And some communities & families are very culturally mixed - it seems natural that everyone is appropriating from everyone in some way and those who are very young now are not responsible for what happened a generation ago. As an old woman I have been sympathetic to the concerns of suppression, exploitation, & appropriation for decades. Now I am just tired of it. It’s fundamentally a never-ending human identity issue. And quite frankly, humans aren’t that important. It’s hubris to think we can patent nature or the practices of our ancestors, especially for economic purposes. It’s as though we forget we are all cousins from the same genetic source. Is oppression wrong? Yes. Is engaging in a global human activity by burning herbs that now grow in your area a form of oppression? No. Except perhaps to the herbs. I’ve returned to Europe, where my grandparents were indigenous (yes white people are also indigenous & have long traditions of folk majick & shamanism - a word appropriated from Siberia). There are plenty of beautiful, simple European folk practices. And I can create my own as well, focused on my own local wild spaces. Will that coincidentally look like someone else’s? Don’t care. Will someone of another culture copy me? Don’t care. Everyone is indigenous to the Earth and at some point in history we all share the same ancestors.
I'm tired of people thinking they can just walk into any kind of practice and then turn around and profit off of what they learned a week ago. But then get mad when they aren't granted access to something that's meant to be preserved. "oh well I don't gatekeep" comes from people who have been watering down everything they've learned to regurgitate to others, and a lot of them need to realize that it's not always about them and what they 'certainly won't do' and what they 'ought to be privy to', and have access to.
Yes, we see closed traditions and gatekeeping even in practices that are fairly public. For instance, in German paganism, fainings will often be open. Informal sumbles will often be open, but formal sumbles closed, and lots are almost always closed to outsiders. Then we have closed practices like family traditions or traditions of a Bund that are closed to those who don't have the blood (in the case of family traditions) or aren't initiated into the Bund. Entitled Pele will have a problem with this, but it's the way it has always been, and they should ask themselves why they aren't willing to do the work to be initiated if they want to know so bad.
The one addition I feel called to share is that Covens aren’t a Traditional Witchcraft thing - they are more of Wiccan imprint. Historical, Witchcraft does not see much “Coven” presence. Witches would gather for festivities or join forces when needed but not in the way we understand Covens today 😊
Yeah fun fact: lots of Wiccans call their practice British Traditional Witchcraft. I didn’t know that before this video, only found that out later xD and that’s the British traditional witchcraft I was talking about in that video
yh it is part of what I find problematic within Wicca tbh, how some Wiccans use "Wicca" and "Witchcraft" interchangeably... however non-Wiccan make a very clear distinction :D @@TheNorseWitch
What I find troubling is gatekeeping masquerading as “protection from cultural appropriation”. This is very different from simply a closed practice or initiatory tradition. You might not be welcome at the yacht club, but that doesn’t mean you can’t ever own and sail a boat… and if you can’t buy one from the club, what is stopping you from building your own? It’s just going to be a lot harder process. If it is ok for an ethnic minority to exclude people based only on heritage, then that is very much the same as white supremacy/racism. As long as someone is willing to put in to work of a practice and commit to it, they shouldn’t be excluded Or invalidated based on external reasons. Unfortunately you cannot have it both ways, and there are many grey areas. A trans woman who cannot menstruate must be permitted to participate in a closed women’s menstrual ritual, but if a white person is called to work with a god/goddess of another culture it immediately becomes cultural appropriation or whitewashing? I’m not excusing or advocating for people exploiting or profiting off of these activities (the yoga/chakra example). It isn’t so much about protecting the culture/practice/traditions from commercialization and exploitation, it’s completely invalidating someone else’s practice based on them not fitting into your box perfectly. And then sometimes taking that public and trying to shame or undermine that individuals practice because of this. Be it excluding based on gender, heritage, or sexual preferences… none of which limit a persons ability to work with a particular pantheon or practice, it is wrong. I’m not saying that everyone deserves automatic full access to all closed groups traditions and practices. Just because that trans woman doesn’t menstruate doesn’t make them not a woman, but it may prevent them from participating in some aspects of a specific traditions women’s rituals… it becomes gatekeeping when they are completely barred by a group from working with a particular goddess, or told they cannot be a “real priestess” and ostracized within the community because of something that cannot be fully changed or altered.
Very well said, I was thinking this stuff but could never exactly put it into words as to the sensitivity of the subject got me scared to even confront the idea, in my own circle its hard to even bring up the topic at all. So thank you for the clarity, this is exactly my thoughts on the subject, blessed be.
I have a question for you about covens? What if you join on and find out later they do things that really go against your ethics? What do you do then? I mean are these groups one you stay in your whole life and commit your self to? What are the usual expectations to be in one by the way? Thank you.
Underlying all of this, for white Americans (like me) specifically, I think there is also a jealously we don't name. My family tree as far back as I know is like 99.9% white Christians, and there is a lot of societal privilege that came after my ancestors (mainly prussian and german) assimilated into capital W White American culture. Once I started to try to unlearn a lot of that dogma and explored spirituality I realized I didnt have any real culture to draw from. No passed down recipes, dance, music, let alone spiritual practice. I couldnt help but notice some jealousy I was starting to harbor for other cultures and people that had generational knowledge and spiritual communties to belong to. So I initially balked at "gatekeeping" because it felt like magic was getting taken away, just when I was starting to find it. In the end thought this is something we need to work through on our own, and gatekeeping is still important, especially to fight against appropriation of threatened practices.
Thank you so much for your honesty!!! Tbh I think there are lot of Europeans who feel the same way though, because lots of people are raised without any culturally specific traditions. But yeah I guess for White Americans, White Canadians, White Australians, etc, that will be much more common
I’m an 18 year old Mexican American who doesn’t rlly have any religious labels but I do believe in the Norse gods and do worship them like Pagans. There is a reason I tell only my closest friends I believe. It’s dangerous believeing anything nowadays. If you don’t know a single fact, you’re plain out stupid or shouldn’t even claim to be a part of this or that. I find it worse in my generation (gen z). Apologies for the rant, but I also don’t feel welcomed or alike at all in the Pagan community. Not at all because of racism, but a lot of values in Paganism aren’t values or interests I have. That’s why I don’t call myself a Pagan. I practice quite differently. I study and practice Taoism, Buddhism, Satanism, Paganism, etc. I don’t call myself either of those things because it’s impossible to do so. Satanists do not believe in a god or gods. I just apply certain things from that religion to myself and learn from it. I learn so much from Christianity too but I don’t believe in that god particularly. No where in person or on the internet have I found a place I feel so welcomed like I do watching this channel. No where.
Oh yeah I get it. Especially on the internet people are loving cancel culture and going off at each other because of the smallest things. It’s ridiculous. But I find it very respectful of you to not give yourself all of those labels if you don’t 100% align with it ☺️ a lot of people would just slap ALL of those labels onto themselves and run with them, which I find a little bit problematic. So I think your approach is a very good one ☺️ but I’m very sorry you never feel welcome anywhere 😪 I hope you’ll find the right people eventually!
I love my own individual practices, but not so much of a fan of the "communities" I've ran across. I'm not even sure if I can call them communities more than clicks, honestly. More interested in selling services than discussion and sharing knowledge.
Gate keepers in Pagan spaces are so annoying, in dont go online to pagan chat spaces anymore just cause they are always causing a disruptive and getting in the way of learning..
I really like you, so I was afraid to watch this. I should have known better than to worry 😂 this was an excellent, balanced take that I wish our communities as a whole could espouse.
I understand for closed practises of Witchcraft because in some countries it's illegal to do witchcraft have to keep it Underground because if they show witchcraft it can be very dangerous for them understandable. I don't show my witchcraft online. I only show my witchcraft to someone I really know for a long time and interested in witchcraft/ spirituality paganism. I have been to open practises I had no discrimination on my sexuality or disability for me personally.
See when you say "I hope I haven't offended anyone" that's where our views split. Haha I'm like "YOU MAD?! GOOD!! STAY MAD AND NEVER GLAD, STAY PRESSED AND NEVER BLESSED!!! DIE MAD, I DON'T CARE!! "
Sure! If it’s that many then it’s probably best to send me an email so the message doesn’t drown in my IG DMs ☺️ you can send it to thenorsewitch.bente@gmail.com ☺️
I completely agree with your assessment on gate keeping. But what irritated me very much, you speak of British traditional witchcraft. A year & a day for initiation comes from Wicca as far as I know and since you also mention Jule, Gerald Gardner (founder of Wicca) & Alex Sanders (founder of a Wiccan current), I assume you are talking about Wicca, not traditional witchcraft? Because (British) traditional witchcraft is a current that emerged at the same time as Wicca through mainly Robert Cochrane, as a counter-movement to Wicca. It doesn't work with God/Goddess, for example, nor with the 8 wheel of the year festivals, other tools are used, it works mainly with the land, its folklore and spirits, also the elements are not called according to the fixed cardinal points but where they are in the direct environment, e.g. a river in the north-water, a forest in the south-earth and so on. To name just a few differences. And I believe (I'm not sure about that point, but makes a very big difference especially in the context) there are no initiations. As someone who started with books of the late 90s, early 2000s, where Wicca & Witch, Wicca & Magic were sold as one and the same, but I myself can't do anything with the Wicca concept, the religion, I had real problems to get into practice with witchcraft. Because I am not a Wiccan, but only got Wiccan information, which was called witch. And I know many who had the same problems. So I think it's important (& respectful) to make a distinction there, also because this is still extremely mixed up in books and by content creators, but it's definitely not the same.
That’s very interesting! Thank you for clarifying. Because that is simply what our high priestess said. I know that she was initiated into an Alexandrian coven so I guess that’s where the initiation and stuff come from 🤔 But we’re definitely not a Wiccan coven. I guess she got it mixed up then, too 🤔 or she was taught wrong. Do you happen to have a book recommendation to read up about proper British traditional witchcraft so we can educate ourselves on the topic better? ☺️
Oh wait I just remembered one thing she told me though. She said it’s not called Wicca because the term Wicca apparently came up much later then the traditions themselves. For example Gerald Gardner never called his tradition Wicca. For him it was just witchcraft or the path of the Wise. I guess that’s why it’s often just called British traditional Witchcraft to differentiate between the „original“ older traditions and the new eclectic solitary Wicca that most people nowadays practice?
@@TheNorseWitch I find "The Crooked Path - An Introduction to Traditional Witchcraft" by Kelden very good for start, is good to get, contains something about history, much about practice, a bibliography & has no need to badmouth Wicca like some other authors. „Treading the Mill - Workings in Traditional Witchcraft“ by Nigel G. Pearson is also very good, but not quite as easy to get hold of, at least here in Germany, but goes into practice a bit more.
Oh I even have The Crooked Path, perfect! I’ll make sure to read it then. So is what you’re referencing to more on the Folk Magic side then? I find it extremely strange, if you Google British Traditional Witchcraft and British Traditional Wicca you’ll find the terms being used interchangeably. Especially lots of practitioners of the tradition seem to refer to themselves as British Traditional Witchcraft.
@@TheNorseWitch 👍😊 Yes, it goes more in the direction of folk magic, only there are certain rituals like treading the mill and compass round. There is also some overlap with Wicca, some of the influential people in traditional witchcraft were Wiccan before (Alex Sanders was never in traditional witchcraft as far as I know 🤔 I'm sure about Gardner), I think that's also where the confusion comes from. A big difference is that it works with the folklore, the land, less with gods and if then the gods of the region, or even the devil, not for example with gods of other cultures.
I agree with you...Europeans should prevent non Europeans from appropriating our ancestral beliefs and practices. Not to be mean, but to protect ourselves and prevent these beliefs and practices from becoming mainstream and to stop the spread of misinformation, or the profiting off of them.
I think you misunderstood. When I talked about closed practices and them being necessary to protect the traditions I was definitely NOT talking about us Europeans. 🤣
@@TheNorseWitch so cultural appropriation is acceptable for non Europeans? I made the exact same argument as you did, yet it somehow doesn't apply because...? This is why your entire case falls apart, it cannot stand up to its own standards. Any justification you make for "marginalized' groups to prevent others (Europeans...let's be honest here) from adopting their cultural practices or beliefs, it automatically cuts the other way.
Well the big difference is that (and I’ll go off Voodoo and Hoodoo as an example) us Europeans were never enslaved by non Europeans. The difference in history is the important part. We have such an avid history of colonizing that we should get rid of instead of continuing to colonize other cultures religions and practices. But don’t get me wrong - I‘m still of them opinion that people should practice our traditions with respect. ANYONE who doesn’t practice ANY tradition or practice with respect should stop practicing it.
@@TheNorseWitch slavery has nothing to do with it, and you are incorrect, Europeans were enslaved by non Europeans, look no farther than the Arab slave trade, the US Marines were created specifically because Arabs were enslaving Americans which lead to the treaty of Tripoli. Native Americans captured and enslaved white Europeans...if you truly want to know the real contribution to slavery made by Europeans it was not the practice of it, but the ending of it. Europeans ended the global slave trade at the cost of money and our lives for nothing more than because it was morally correct. We had to use force to stop Asia and Africa from continuing the practice. Cherry picking history to justify cultural segregation is silly. I agree that respect is important but you are holding a double standard.
Okay then. I’d really like to see a comparison of these numbers. From what I could research for example an estimated 1-1.25 million white Christian Europeans were enslaved by Arabs for example. I actually couldn’t find anything on Arabs enslaving Americans. But I definitely doubt that the numbers of white slaves taken by non-whites (we liked to enslaved each other which I won’t count) compares only remotely to the numbers of POC people that white people enslaved. It’s just not comparable. Also, this was just one example. Another example is the systematic erasure of indigenous cultures around the world by white people. We simply have an awful history of treating others without respect. And that in turn should make us even more careful and aware of such issues nowadays. Also I’d like to ask… if you feel like European traditions should be closed to non-Europeans. What are white Americans, South Africans and Australians supposed to do? Shouldn’t they be allowed to reconnect with the traditions of their ancestors? They definitely can’t practice the traditions of the indigenous people on who’s stolen land they’re living. That would be extremely disrespectful.
Witchcraft for me is very similar to cooking. Just because I want to learn doesn't mean I should get to see your heirloom cookbook that has been passed down for generations or be taught your perfected masterpiece. However, there should be some basics taught to keep people from burning their house down or hurting themselves or others.
This is a very good comparison! ☺️
Excellent comment!
very on point
Excellent comparison!
My only real problem with gatekeepers is when they tell you you can't do something when it's an open practice. I totally get gatekeepers of closed practices.
Yeah definitely! I also really dislike „my way of the highway“ approaches when they don’t make sense 🤣
I think there is a huge difference between keeping private things private and gatekeeping. You're right, it's a term that gets used in the wrong context far too often. People should not feel entitled to every aspect of someone's life or practice. And closed practices shouldn't even get dragged into the conversation. It's so obnoxious that people (especially White folks) claim closed practices to be "gatekeeping" when it's really marginalized people protecting themselves.
Yeeees!!!
Thank you so much! I'm new to Norse paganism and I have seen alot of different views on this. This is most accurate to what I believe. I'm still learning but I plan to learn more. I've never been happier. I've recently gotten my first Mjolnir necklace and my main God's at the moment are Odin, Thor and my goddess is Freyja. I'm sure later on I'll take on worshiping more God's and Goddesses. I can't openly have an alter and do rituals yet because my parent's are very Christian and out of respect to them. I plan to move in with my boyfriend some time in the next 2 years. He's very supportive and curious about my beliefs. I'm much happier with my beliefs. I've always felt connected to the Norse pagan panteon but growing up in a strict Christian household I was always so afraid to dive deep into it. I've recently overcome my fear and my mother is actually very supportive. I've given my first offering to Thor the other day. I have very worried I'd not do it properly but I didn't have much to give. I just had the feeling Thor wanted some. I've been following you for awhile and I've learned alot. Thank you so much for sharing with us. I don't know where I'd be if I hadn't found you
Thank you so much not heard the term gatekeeping in terms of witchcraft community. So many important points you raised. A sacred practice that preserves a culture can't just be "handed over" in a social media post. "I'll show you mine if you show me yours" if that makes sense. I need to go very slowly reclaiming and finding my mixed cultural lineages its a slow healing process for me and not one to rush.
I'm happy you've addressed this. Gatekeeping isn't black and white. Great video :)
You're a wonderful person and I know about your point of view, it's sad how now a days in "social media" people think that because someone is sharing part of their knowledge on line they have no right to Privacy, social media sharks behave as if no one has a right to Privacy from their prying eyes anymore when in fact everyone has a right to Privacy.
No one closes a practice because they want to but because they have to to protect themselves and their community.
It could be so wonderful to share my craft with people who I can trust will understand and respect me and my culture but that's a perfect world that doesnt exist.
Yeah sadly the world works a lot differently
Urgh gatekeeping!! I had this with EVERYTHING from Photography to Witchcraft. Only just got back into studying witchcraft after finding out that SOME folk lied to me stating "males can't be witches!" IF I knew we could be witches I'd have started AGES ago!! All that time lost because I listened to the wrong people!!
But as a wise witch once told me "you are never to old to start again"
Deeeefinitely! Welcome back to the family ❤️❤️❤️
@@TheNorseWitch Thank you :) Blessed be!
I think the problem is, that a lot of new practitioners wanted to get guided all the time and dont want to put the afford into a topic...seeing this all the time in Discord servers and as soon as ypu stop the information-tsunami they are demanding, you are called a gate keeper.... seeing this for over 2 years now on almost a daily basis 😐🤷🏻♀️ i love to share, but im not your nanny on your spiritual journey all the time
I'm semi part of a closed practise, meaning I do like to learn from them but I can't bring myself to only follow their traditions and nothing else. One thing I like is that you can pick and choose what initiations you want to do, you just gotta have money and time to go there. It's a buddhist lineage so everyone is really kind and all help each other so if you can't afford to pay for a room or something there, you can pay by working in the kitchen or something. Overall it is beautiful to be surrounded by likeminded people but I have two big issues: the people who go there are often people who used to be christians/muslims and still hold on to the "praying to someone" and treating someone like a god instead of just a person you can learn from. If you tell those people what you can do, they won't believe you because you're not a lama. Yet they listen to their lama talk about how they too can gain skills and power, quite funny and also sad. But then another thing that kind of bothers me as someone who likes to research before I get myself into something: they only give you bits of info at a time. it's for your safety and they will only give you info you can process but it definitely can be frustrating to have questions be answered by "yaou´re not ready yet"/ "you need to finish xyz process first"
I totally get it but I like to have the full picture before committing to something that´s gonna take me years to complete. I know another issue is also with mantras that you should only do at a certain level and what not but I'd like to just know everything story wise about a special interest I developed yet I can't xD
Im American and a huge huge problem here is people appropriating and overstepping boundaries when it comes to closed indigenous practices. I always hear people say "you cant own nature" "magic is for everyone" and its so ignorant and tone deaf. I have numerous indigenous witch friends and it I hear how much it hurts them. Its completely a respect thing. White people in particular love to use minorities culture for their own gain. Its not about "owning nature". It's about the heinous and evil way the American government shut indigenous people out from their own practices until they realized they could profit off of it on top of the straight up respect for one's culture. It will never be okay.
Seems an American thing?Perhaps because America is more culturally mixed with so many who are lost to the older traditions left behind. And some communities & families are very culturally mixed - it seems natural that everyone is appropriating from everyone in some way and those who are very young now are not responsible for what happened a generation ago.
As an old woman I have been sympathetic to the concerns of suppression, exploitation, & appropriation for decades.
Now I am just tired of it. It’s fundamentally a never-ending human identity issue. And quite frankly, humans aren’t that important. It’s hubris to think we can patent nature or the practices of our ancestors, especially for economic purposes. It’s as though we forget we are all cousins from the same genetic source. Is oppression wrong? Yes. Is engaging in a global human activity by burning herbs that now grow in your area a form of oppression? No. Except perhaps to the herbs.
I’ve returned to Europe, where my grandparents were indigenous (yes white people are also indigenous & have long traditions of folk majick & shamanism - a word appropriated from Siberia). There are plenty of beautiful, simple European folk practices. And I can create my own as well, focused on my own local wild spaces. Will that coincidentally look like someone else’s? Don’t care. Will someone of another culture copy me? Don’t care. Everyone is indigenous to the Earth and at some point in history we all share the same ancestors.
I'm tired of people thinking they can just walk into any kind of practice and then turn around and profit off of what they learned a week ago. But then get mad when they aren't granted access to something that's meant to be preserved. "oh well I don't gatekeep" comes from people who have been watering down everything they've learned to regurgitate to others, and a lot of them need to realize that it's not always about them and what they 'certainly won't do' and what they 'ought to be privy to', and have access to.
Yes, we see closed traditions and gatekeeping even in practices that are fairly public.
For instance, in German paganism, fainings will often be open. Informal sumbles will often be open, but formal sumbles closed, and lots are almost always closed to outsiders.
Then we have closed practices like family traditions or traditions of a Bund that are closed to those who don't have the blood (in the case of family traditions) or aren't initiated into the Bund.
Entitled Pele will have a problem with this, but it's the way it has always been, and they should ask themselves why they aren't willing to do the work to be initiated if they want to know so bad.
How does one know if a practice is closed - who decides if a practice is closed? I'd love your thoughts!
I would ask people who practice the tradition ☺️
The one addition I feel called to share is that Covens aren’t a Traditional Witchcraft thing - they are more of Wiccan imprint.
Historical, Witchcraft does not see much “Coven” presence.
Witches would gather for festivities or join forces when needed but not in the way we understand Covens today 😊
Yeah fun fact: lots of Wiccans call their practice British Traditional Witchcraft. I didn’t know that before this video, only found that out later xD and that’s the British traditional witchcraft I was talking about in that video
yh it is part of what I find problematic within Wicca tbh, how some Wiccans use "Wicca" and "Witchcraft" interchangeably... however non-Wiccan make a very clear distinction :D
@@TheNorseWitch
What I find troubling is gatekeeping masquerading as “protection from cultural appropriation”. This is very different from simply a closed practice or initiatory tradition. You might not be welcome at the yacht club, but that doesn’t mean you can’t ever own and sail a boat… and if you can’t buy one from the club, what is stopping you from building your own? It’s just going to be a lot harder process.
If it is ok for an ethnic minority to exclude people based only on heritage, then that is very much the same as white supremacy/racism. As long as someone is willing to put in to work of a practice and commit to it, they shouldn’t be excluded Or invalidated based on external reasons. Unfortunately you cannot have it both ways, and there are many grey areas. A trans woman who cannot menstruate must be permitted to participate in a closed women’s menstrual ritual, but if a white person is called to work with a god/goddess of another culture it immediately becomes cultural appropriation or whitewashing? I’m not excusing or advocating for people exploiting or profiting off of these activities (the yoga/chakra example). It isn’t so much about protecting the culture/practice/traditions from commercialization and exploitation, it’s completely invalidating someone else’s practice based on them not fitting into your box perfectly. And then sometimes taking that public and trying to shame or undermine that individuals practice because of this.
Be it excluding based on gender, heritage, or sexual preferences… none of which limit a persons ability to work with a particular pantheon or practice, it is wrong. I’m not saying that everyone deserves automatic full access to all closed groups traditions and practices. Just because that trans woman doesn’t menstruate doesn’t make them not a woman, but it may prevent them from participating in some aspects of a specific traditions women’s rituals… it becomes gatekeeping when they are completely barred by a group from working with a particular goddess, or told they cannot be a “real priestess” and ostracized within the community because of something that cannot be fully changed or altered.
Very well said, I was thinking this stuff but could never exactly put it into words as to the sensitivity of the subject got me scared to even confront the idea, in my own circle its hard to even bring up the topic at all. So thank you for the clarity, this is exactly my thoughts on the subject, blessed be.
Great video..perfectly explained...totally agree with you. Thank you
I have a question for you about covens? What if you join on and find out later they do things that really go against your ethics? What do you do then? I mean are these groups one you stay in your whole life and commit your self to? What are the usual expectations to be in one by the way? Thank you.
Underlying all of this, for white Americans (like me) specifically, I think there is also a jealously we don't name. My family tree as far back as I know is like 99.9% white Christians, and there is a lot of societal privilege that came after my ancestors (mainly prussian and german) assimilated into capital W White American culture. Once I started to try to unlearn a lot of that dogma and explored spirituality I realized I didnt have any real culture to draw from. No passed down recipes, dance, music, let alone spiritual practice. I couldnt help but notice some jealousy I was starting to harbor for other cultures and people that had generational knowledge and spiritual communties to belong to. So I initially balked at "gatekeeping" because it felt like magic was getting taken away, just when I was starting to find it. In the end thought this is something we need to work through on our own, and gatekeeping is still important, especially to fight against appropriation of threatened practices.
Thank you so much for your honesty!!! Tbh I think there are lot of Europeans who feel the same way though, because lots of people are raised without any culturally specific traditions. But yeah I guess for White Americans, White Canadians, White Australians, etc, that will be much more common
@@TheNorseWitch Absolutely, I was speaking from my experience, but definitely not an exclusive experience to the US.
I’m an 18 year old Mexican American who doesn’t rlly have any religious labels but I do believe in the Norse gods and do worship them like Pagans. There is a reason I tell only my closest friends I believe. It’s dangerous believeing anything nowadays. If you don’t know a single fact, you’re plain out stupid or shouldn’t even claim to be a part of this or that. I find it worse in my generation (gen z). Apologies for the rant, but I also don’t feel welcomed or alike at all in the Pagan community. Not at all because of racism, but a lot of values in Paganism aren’t values or interests I have. That’s why I don’t call myself a Pagan. I practice quite differently. I study and practice Taoism, Buddhism, Satanism, Paganism, etc. I don’t call myself either of those things because it’s impossible to do so. Satanists do not believe in a god or gods. I just apply certain things from that religion to myself and learn from it. I learn so much from Christianity too but I don’t believe in that god particularly. No where in person or on the internet have I found a place I feel so welcomed like I do watching this channel. No where.
Oh yeah I get it. Especially on the internet people are loving cancel culture and going off at each other because of the smallest things. It’s ridiculous. But I find it very respectful of you to not give yourself all of those labels if you don’t 100% align with it ☺️ a lot of people would just slap ALL of those labels onto themselves and run with them, which I find a little bit problematic. So I think your approach is a very good one ☺️ but I’m very sorry you never feel welcome anywhere 😪 I hope you’ll find the right people eventually!
I love my own individual practices, but not so much of a fan of the "communities" I've ran across. I'm not even sure if I can call them communities more than clicks, honestly. More interested in selling services than discussion and sharing knowledge.
Very well said.
Gate keepers in Pagan spaces are so annoying, in dont go online to pagan chat spaces anymore just cause they are always causing a disruptive and getting in the way of learning..
I really like you, so I was afraid to watch this. I should have known better than to worry 😂 this was an excellent, balanced take that I wish our communities as a whole could espouse.
I‘m glad you don’t hate me now 🤣🤣
@TheNorseWitch me too, that would have been such a bummer 😂😂😂
I understand for closed practises of Witchcraft because in some countries it's illegal to do witchcraft have to keep it Underground because if they show witchcraft it can be very dangerous for them understandable. I don't show my witchcraft online. I only show my witchcraft to someone I really know for a long time and interested in witchcraft/ spirituality paganism. I have been to open practises I had no discrimination on my sexuality or disability for me personally.
Your so right I agree with you it's private for some people
See when you say "I hope I haven't offended anyone" that's where our views split. Haha I'm like "YOU MAD?! GOOD!! STAY MAD AND NEVER GLAD, STAY PRESSED AND NEVER BLESSED!!! DIE MAD, I DON'T CARE!! "
Hello! I was wondering if I could ask you 3 or 4 different questions about Norse paganism. :)
Sure! If it’s that many then it’s probably best to send me an email so the message doesn’t drown in my IG DMs ☺️ you can send it to thenorsewitch.bente@gmail.com ☺️
@@TheNorseWitch Ok! I will do that! :) It's like 5 questions, but they aren't that complicated.
@@TheNorseWitch Alright, i sent the email! :)
I completely agree with your assessment on gate keeping.
But what irritated me very much, you speak of British traditional witchcraft. A year & a day for initiation comes from Wicca as far as I know and since you also mention Jule, Gerald Gardner (founder of Wicca) & Alex Sanders (founder of a Wiccan current), I assume you are talking about Wicca, not traditional witchcraft?
Because (British) traditional witchcraft is a current that emerged at the same time as Wicca through mainly Robert Cochrane, as a counter-movement to Wicca. It doesn't work with God/Goddess, for example, nor with the 8 wheel of the year festivals, other tools are used, it works mainly with the land, its folklore and spirits, also the elements are not called according to the fixed cardinal points but where they are in the direct environment, e.g. a river in the north-water, a forest in the south-earth and so on. To name just a few differences. And I believe (I'm not sure about that point, but makes a very big difference especially in the context) there are no initiations.
As someone who started with books of the late 90s, early 2000s, where Wicca & Witch, Wicca & Magic were sold as one and the same, but I myself can't do anything with the Wicca concept, the religion, I had real problems to get into practice with witchcraft. Because I am not a Wiccan, but only got Wiccan information, which was called witch. And I know many who had the same problems.
So I think it's important (& respectful) to make a distinction there, also because this is still extremely mixed up in books and by content creators, but it's definitely not the same.
That’s very interesting! Thank you for clarifying. Because that is simply what our high priestess said. I know that she was initiated into an Alexandrian coven so I guess that’s where the initiation and stuff come from 🤔 But we’re definitely not a Wiccan coven. I guess she got it mixed up then, too 🤔 or she was taught wrong. Do you happen to have a book recommendation to read up about proper British traditional witchcraft so we can educate ourselves on the topic better? ☺️
Oh wait I just remembered one thing she told me though. She said it’s not called Wicca because the term Wicca apparently came up much later then the traditions themselves. For example Gerald Gardner never called his tradition Wicca. For him it was just witchcraft or the path of the Wise. I guess that’s why it’s often just called British traditional Witchcraft to differentiate between the „original“ older traditions and the new eclectic solitary Wicca that most people nowadays practice?
@@TheNorseWitch I find "The Crooked Path - An Introduction to Traditional Witchcraft" by Kelden very good for start, is good to get, contains something about history, much about practice, a bibliography & has no need to badmouth Wicca like some other authors.
„Treading the Mill - Workings in Traditional Witchcraft“ by Nigel G. Pearson is also very good, but not quite as easy to get hold of, at least here in Germany, but goes into practice a bit more.
Oh I even have The Crooked Path, perfect! I’ll make sure to read it then. So is what you’re referencing to more on the Folk Magic side then?
I find it extremely strange, if you Google British Traditional Witchcraft and British Traditional Wicca you’ll find the terms being used interchangeably. Especially lots of practitioners of the tradition seem to refer to themselves as British Traditional Witchcraft.
@@TheNorseWitch 👍😊
Yes, it goes more in the direction of folk magic, only there are certain rituals like treading the mill and compass round. There is also some overlap with Wicca, some of the influential people in traditional witchcraft were Wiccan before (Alex Sanders was never in traditional witchcraft as far as I know 🤔 I'm sure about Gardner), I think that's also where the confusion comes from. A big difference is that it works with the folklore, the land, less with gods and if then the gods of the region, or even the devil, not for example with gods of other cultures.
I agree with you...Europeans should prevent non Europeans from appropriating our ancestral beliefs and practices. Not to be mean, but to protect ourselves and prevent these beliefs and practices from becoming mainstream and to stop the spread of misinformation, or the profiting off of them.
I think you misunderstood. When I talked about closed practices and them being necessary to protect the traditions I was definitely NOT talking about us Europeans. 🤣
@@TheNorseWitch so cultural appropriation is acceptable for non Europeans? I made the exact same argument as you did, yet it somehow doesn't apply because...?
This is why your entire case falls apart, it cannot stand up to its own standards. Any justification you make for "marginalized' groups to prevent others (Europeans...let's be honest here) from adopting their cultural practices or beliefs, it automatically cuts the other way.
Well the big difference is that (and I’ll go off Voodoo and Hoodoo as an example) us Europeans were never enslaved by non Europeans. The difference in history is the important part. We have such an avid history of colonizing that we should get rid of instead of continuing to colonize other cultures religions and practices.
But don’t get me wrong - I‘m still of them opinion that people should practice our traditions with respect. ANYONE who doesn’t practice ANY tradition or practice with respect should stop practicing it.
@@TheNorseWitch slavery has nothing to do with it, and you are incorrect, Europeans were enslaved by non Europeans, look no farther than the Arab slave trade, the US Marines were created specifically because Arabs were enslaving Americans which lead to the treaty of Tripoli. Native Americans captured and enslaved white Europeans...if you truly want to know the real contribution to slavery made by Europeans it was not the practice of it, but the ending of it. Europeans ended the global slave trade at the cost of money and our lives for nothing more than because it was morally correct. We had to use force to stop Asia and Africa from continuing the practice.
Cherry picking history to justify cultural segregation is silly. I agree that respect is important but you are holding a double standard.
Okay then. I’d really like to see a comparison of these numbers. From what I could research for example an estimated 1-1.25 million white Christian Europeans were enslaved by Arabs for example. I actually couldn’t find anything on Arabs enslaving Americans. But I definitely doubt that the numbers of white slaves taken by non-whites (we liked to enslaved each other which I won’t count) compares only remotely to the numbers of POC people that white people enslaved. It’s just not comparable.
Also, this was just one example. Another example is the systematic erasure of indigenous cultures around the world by white people. We simply have an awful history of treating others without respect. And that in turn should make us even more careful and aware of such issues nowadays.
Also I’d like to ask… if you feel like European traditions should be closed to non-Europeans. What are white Americans, South Africans and Australians supposed to do? Shouldn’t they be allowed to reconnect with the traditions of their ancestors? They definitely can’t practice the traditions of the indigenous people on who’s stolen land they’re living. That would be extremely disrespectful.