Gordon Hinckley on Why Blacks Were Denied the LDS Priesthood
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- Опубликовано: 24 авг 2024
- Until 1978, no person of African descent was allowed into the LDS (Mormon) priesthood. German Reporter asks LDS President Gordon B. Hinckley why this was the case. His response begs the question of whether Mr. Hinckley can rightly be called a "prophet, seer and revelator". His response also demonstrates the patronizing and paternalistic attitude that many in the LDS Church still adopt toward persons of color.
I'm aware of the ancient roots of various myths including the Curse of Cain thing and that the LDS Church is hardly alone in being tainted in its history by such things. What I'm saying is that members and leadership alike ought to at least be able to speak openly and honestly about even troubling issues in order to strive forward. I got told so many times over the years "not to think about such things" that it got really frustrating.
It takes a lot of humility to say "I don't know"... Which is true, "We know that God loves all his children, but we do not know the meaning of all things. For whatever reason the priesthood was taken from the black members of the Church, it is beyond the human capacity to know.
It is simple, america at that time Was racist.. and the religion created followed the men Words instead of god words
@@joemarpolinio1739 There's a huge difference when a person/group representing a religion does/says reprehensible things. It's a grand canyon of a difference when one's "holy book" declares such things. Hinckley's response is what teachers use to demonstrate what a "red herring" is. There is no humility in this response because humility deals with values; this is a question on facts.
Its simple revelation was not from god it’s church is about huge lie
Clearly this old guy Hinkley was alive in 1978, and there must have been some doctrine preached at that time and before that time that justified the the Mormon doctrine on this issue. Evidently Hinkley has selective amnesia, or chooses to not answer. Or perhaps has Alzheimer's disease or Parkinson's disease and should not be in charge of anything like a portion of the Mormon heirarchy.
Pronouns such as "us" and "we" as opposed to "them" or "these people" say a great deal, you're absolutely correct. We need more "we" thinking and less "them" thinking in our society.
I'm against racism by anyone. I'm against any church that has made it a focal part of it's beliefs, such as the KKK.
Anyone know where to get the full interview?
I don't but knowing context is correct.
@@andrewohlwiler2727 Context: evidence against mormonism interview. Hinckley walked out when confronted about the church's claims on natives and Jews when the genetics proved otherwise. It took them years before coming up with some ridiculous retort. Context is always needed, you're right. But heads up, the context is certainly not going to look any better for mormons.
I love Gordon B Hinckley, what a wonderful man :-) thanks for this video!
I meant - "Being able to say an injustice is wrong should not be akin to asking a person to give up a belief in God."
Hinkley during the full interview was asked of the priesthood ban was wrong. If you go get the transcript for yourself you'll see he said "No, I don't think so." If denying access to opportunities based on skin/lineage isn't wrong, why not? That's called a lack of social responsibility to clarify where you stand. In Christian terms it's also called failure to repent in order to move forward.
Who says it was based on Racial reasons? God restricted the Priesthood to only the tribe of Levi, and the office of High Priest only to direct descendents of Aaron. Besides Joseph Smith Jr. called several Black men as Priests, one reaching the level of a Seventy before his death. So clearly God had another reason than race discrimination, like keeping his church out of the Racism War until the world was ready for fully integrated churches.
Gordon B Hinckley is way special to me, he is such a good man. :-) Loved seeing a video of him again, thanks for this video!
343TheSentient 😂
Dumbass
....Bot?
Are prophets are supposed to know everything, and all the reasons for God's command and timing? Does God have to give an immediate explanation, in detail? Do fathers always give an immediate reason to their child for everything they do? There are definitely things in the Bible that could be seen as racism with out further understanding, or faith that God, in his infinite wisdom, has perfect timing and reason for all his dealings with all his tiny children. As far as "developing", the meaning I derived from the context of what he was saying was: we're developing them, spiritually, along with the rest of the flock. Lastly, it will always be a matter of gaining a foundational testimony, from the "Holy Spirit of promise", through diligent, humble, heartfelt prayer, patience, and faith. There's no other proof for the honest seeker of Heavenly truths. "And now, I, Moroni, would speak somewhat concerning these things; I would show unto the world that faith is things which are hoped for and not seen; wherefore, dispute not because ye see not, for ye receive no witness until after the trial of your faith."(Ether 12:6, wisdom worth considering).
When Mormons refer to “god” they do not mean the God of the Bible and Christians. They mean a Mormon tiny polygamist exalted man god whose throne is nigh unto Kolob and is a mythical Mormon god among a myriad of mythical Mormon tiny polygamist exalted men gods and each having numerous goddess wives, according to Joseph Smith, founder of Mormonism, and Brigham Young, 2nd Mormon false prophet, god, gods and goddesses Smith and Young fabricated to suit their own lusts.
This is obviously not referring to the God of the Bible and Christians, who was, is and will always be the Lord God Almighty, was never a man on another earth that became a Mormon tiny polygamist exalted man god.
References
Teachings of The Prophet J.S. p345, compiled by Joseph Fielding Smith, 10th Mormon false prophet,
Pearl of Great Price, Abraham 3:9,
Journal of Discourses V7 p333-334, V9p322.
The Mormon Church is not needed to have forgiveness of sin, and eternal life in the presence of God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit is through repentance, faith, and trust in Jesus only. Of course you just feel like paying them 10% of your total income to PRETEND that someday you perhaps, might, become a Mormon tiny polygamist exalted man god or a goddess wife to your polygamist god husband.
“For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;” (Romans 3:23)
“For the wages of sin is death; but the GIFT OF GOD IS ETERNAL LIFE THROUGH JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD.” (Romans 6:23)
Jay Forrester and what of baptism?
Jay Forrester And I suppose God told you this? Better yet did you meet Joseph and Brigham... ask them and they told you they made it all up? No? Sorry since your not a prophet and have no love... Jesus said not to listen to you. lol
I'll only touch on the "tiny" god claim. This is the same God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, even Jesus Christ: "O that he would show you that he can pierce you, and with one glance of his eye he can smite you to the dust!" (Jacob 2:15, also 13-16) Doesn't sound so tiny to me. Thankfully, he's also a God of mercy and love: "And I will very gladly spend and be spent for you; though the more abundantly I love you, the less I be loved." (2 Cor. 12:15) The Book of Mormon only ever turns my eye, and my heart toward, our Lord and Savior and all that is encompassed in His great and final work, as do his living latter-day prophets.
Yeah, there were MANY reasons that Joseph Smith was murdered. I don't know that abolition was one of them, but anointing himself King of all the Earth in a secret council of 50 was one, and polygamy was another, and inciting riots and what almost became a war in Missouri was another reason. Joseph had been a busy guy.
What do you think would have happened if Joseph hadn't been killed at Carthage and went to stand trial charged with destroying a printing press? I'd like to know.
Alma 3: 6
"And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob, and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men."
He is a blessing from the lord. Thank you!💖
One of the ironies of anti-mormon bigotry is that those who most loudly stir bigotry towards LDS almost always come from those communities that are the most racist today & Historically. As Juliann Reynolds says on Black lds "Their (anti-mormon) views do not move us toward the solution ...while nervously whistling past the graveyard of their own troubled religious history. ... reduce the black race to nothing more than a convenient brickbat in their polemical assaults"
The critics have a giant beam in their eye, & they clearly aren't seeking to remove a the mote from the LDS past, but are trying to turn it into a beam, so they won't have to remove their own beam.
"Two of the reasons that the Mormons were killed and driven out of Missouri was because many of them opposed slavery and made friends with the Indians in the area." - True, actually, along with belief in inheriting the land held by others in Missouri; economic tension; political tension since Mormons voted in blocs; and other factors.
...Where the hell are you getting your sources? Are you serious? The natives and blacks certainly remember a different story I'm sure.
@@jimmyjames6796 If people were killing the Mormons in Missouri, it was because they were using black magick to steal their wives. As witches, Mormons also practice the ritual of stalking people. They have other horrific beliefs that are all related to witchcraft, which back then, was illegal. The US legalized witchcraft around the 1930's & 1940's
Would you care to tell us the LDS position on the Civil Rights Act of 1964, at the time of its passage?
You're not lying, you're changing the subject.
It would be fairly straight forward to address the topic:
A. Admit past mistakes were indeed mistakes.
B. As Christians, adopt a spirit of humility and repentance on this issue.
C. Deal with the stuff about poor performance by people with black skin performing poorly in the pre-mortal existence (Apostle Holland on PBS has said it's not taught anymore). So acknowledge it is in the past.
D. About the Curse of Cain and Lamanites being darkened skin color, consider putting that in the past too.
"The day of the Lamanites is nigh. For years they have been growing delightsome, and they are now becoming white and delightsome, as they were promised (2 Ne. 30:6). In this picture of the twenty Lamanite missionaries, fifteen of the twenty were as light as Anglos" Spencer W. Kimball, Mormon Apostle and former prophet
The LDS church is the only church that asks it's investigators to question the teachings. That is why we encourage everyone to pray and ask God to know the truth of the Book of Mormon.
In 1978 the Pittsburgh Steelers won a Super Bowl. God is a Steelers fan so he celebrated by lifting the ban.
I'm a dark skinned Mormon, and yes they refrained the Priesthood from people of African descent because they were racist. The racist Caucasians within the Church--had resources the Church needed at the time, or "spawned" future leaders for the church--would leave the Mormon church if the Priesthood was given to Africans. Most Caucasian Americans were racist in those days, and you can't blame them they were brainwashed to be racist by their forefathers and the guy that first came up with slavery.
i love how Gordon B Hinckley was honest in saying 'I don't know'! No political answers, nothing to try to sway the public, just pure and simple. The Lord will not always reveal the reasons why, but he will always test our faith to see what we will do. and as far as i''m concerned from reading most of these comments, I'm glad He hasn't revealed those reasons!
WTH!!!!, give me a break!!!!!!! he was CLUELESS!!!! is scary what indoctrination did to you, Covingston.
We all know why, because Brigham Young, you pin head!!!! but of course they said "I don't know", is better for the Mormons leaders to deceive their members than tell the truth, because the truth is bad for their empire.
You really think he's honest?
@@justjeph6927 Only the Lord knows who's honest. And you have access to Him called prayer. Study it out in your mind, come to a reasonable conclusion, then ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Jesus Christ if it is true. When you know your interpretation is God's interpretation, then you'll know what is true and what is not.
@@covingtonhalltown3730 you can keep your false teaching. The Word of God is true, and not subject to any subjective, private (yours or mine) interpretations. The Truth is absolute, and he is the one you will stand before @ the judgment...
@@justjeph6927 Buddy, that's basically what I just said! You wander off into strange roads because you are without direction and it's difficult for you to recognize truth when it's right before you.
I find it comforting to know that the apostles of the church are not chosen by men but by revelation from God.
They have two choices on the question:
1. Admit error, repent, and strive to move forward in a spirit of mutual cooperation and goodwill. Trouble is this does admit the possibility of prophetic error.
2. Say they don't know and try to change the topic. Often this includes an implication of following God (e.g. we prayed for the ban to be ended). This avoids the possibility of healthy repentance as an institution but also avoids admitting error. The hint of blaming God is really troubling.
What some of you failed to see is that once given the Priesthood, all rights and privileges enjoyed by whites, were given to all blacks. They are equal, totally, in the "Mormon", whereas Pres. Carter had to go to Macon, Gerogia to help a black Baptist Minister, ordained by the Baptist Church, but because of racists in the Macon Baptist Church, he wasn't allowed to preach there. Now, who's the racist now? Blacks are equal in the LDS Church, all over the world. NO One Can Take That Away!
Jacob 3:8 " O my brethren, I fear that unless ye shall repent of your sins that their skins will be whiter than yours, when ye shall be brought with them before the throne of God." Book of Mormon
I love and miss Gordon B Hinkley what a great servant of God. He was a Prophet.
You called me a coward, apparently because I didn't give the name of the religious leader that this comment was about: by Thomas Dahlheimer
“…2007 (Mainstream Church leader)…made perverse and morally obscene remarks which described the genocidal destruction… as a "purifying"…His historical revisionism whitewashes genocide, ethnocide, slavery, land theft, and the continuing subjugation of Indigenous Peoples… saw extreme expressions of racism - massacres, forced-march relocations, death by starvation and disease…would be called ethnic cleansing and genocide… declared war against all non-Christians throughout the world..set the stage for European domination of the New World and Africa…never been revoked…have asked…caused the deaths of upwards of 90….million…the United Nations statements about the (Christians) being primarily responsible for the genocide…”
I do not wish to judge others or attack people for their faith, so I edit, but want you to know there are bigger problems in need of attention. There are so many amazing wonderful Christians, Saints, etc and some of them do better than many LDS in faith and service, etc, but, Mormons are generally good Christian people, and the Christianity of many LDS runs deep and true, and it is wrong to accuse us of racism while overlooking the beam in your own eye (and, this still applies to gay & atheist anti-mormons, they have also committed racist genocide, LDS had a mote, some priesthood restrictions & some quotes you dig up).
Thomas continues: "The Papal Bulls have never been revoked, although indigenous representatives have asked the Vatican to consider doing so. These ‘doctrines of discovery’ provided the basis for both the ‘law of nations’ and subsequent international law. Thus, they allowed Christian nations to claim ‘unoccupied lands’ (terra nullius), or lands belonging to "heathens" or "pagans". In many parts of the world, these concepts later gave rise to the situation of many Native peoples in the today - dependent nations or wards of the State,…”
I don't think it's ok to call Catholics Devils etc. with damnable doctrines, I think they should remove, but, even if they do, if someone wants to promote hate against them, they will still pretend it is "Doctrine" : ) not saying you would do that to them, but you do to Christ's Church....for His sake.
I WENT TO CATHOLIC SCHOOL & PUBLIC SCHOOL AS A KID. A SECULAR COLLEGE FOR 8 YEARS. I HAVE A LIBRARY CARD FROM A CATHOLIC SEMINARY. SERVED AS A SECRETARY FOR ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT BUDDHIST MONKS IN THE US & CANADA ALTHOUGH I AM NOT BUDDHIST!. I ATTEND A CHURCH & A SYNAGOGUE.I ALSO STUDIED COMPARATIVE RELIGION. IN ONE CLASS AS A FRESHMAN I WROTE MY FIRST PAPER ON CHRISTIAN & JEWISH ORIGINS. MY PROFESSOR GAVE ME AN A FOR THE ENTIRE CLASS & MADE ME HIS T.A & TOLD ME I KNEW MORE THAN HE DID!!
It is the height of arrogance to assume that one knows EVERYTHING there is to know about: 1.) What qualifies a man to be a prophet, and 2.) That a man who tries to give an honest, thoughtful response to such an emotionally loaded question is a racist, simply for defending his religion, and NOT speculating on a subject where there has been no clear revelation from the Lord regarding WHY blacks were denied the priesthood. The thinking that dominates this comment thread is vile to the core.
OLIVER COWDERY SECOND APOSTLE OF THE LDS CHURCH WAS ONCE ASKED IF HE THOUGHT BLACKS WERE EQUAL. HE SAID IF THEY WERE PUT IN MY POSITION THEY WOULD PROBABLY DO A BETTER JOB.
And please don't change my words. I did not say "full of." I cited specific verses. I was quite clear. Don't push me in this direction, I left the church but love the church.
"And they pay tithing and offerings, and we like it." Non-stop flip-flop on programs, policies, proclamations, prognostications, prophecies, priorities, and even doctrine/theology. If you believe in all this "direct and constant revelation" to "God's prophets, seers, and revelators," then you also believe that God is indecisive, confused, dismayed, and even flaky.
"Why [did] it take so long time to overcome the racism?"---Hinckly never admits the LDS was racist. The reason it took so long to change was the racism in the LDS, which exists to this day. There is ample evidence the only reason they changed was fear of the IRS.
Since Google has changed format I can't figure out how to reply. So, these are for Mr. Baloney.
1 You continue to insist that some things are Doctrine or teaching of "the Church" etc when they are not. I've shown you quotes from LDS leaders including BYoung (who started the ban, based on interpretations from your Church) that make it very clear that "they believe" that there were no neutrals etc. & THAT is LDS Doctrine. Many talks etc have been given discussing opinions from past centuries & "folklore" based on a non-scriptural attempt to explain. & as ive pointed out, there are bigger beams to pull out. I can only conclude that you wish to promote bigotry against LDS & so insist that some past teachings are doctrine & those that can't be used to promote hate are not really LDS doctrine.
What is more racist; denying dark skinned individuals the right to invisible powers or denying them the right to 47 wives?
I am just glad he didn't marry his followers spouses or open a bank and defraud his depositors.
Joseph Smith used his new religion as a tactic to get alot of wives, followers/Influence and money. Russel allready had (alot of)money as well as a wife he then sold his buisness andused it to fund first the herald of the morning then the watchtower. So Russel was genuine and cared about people even going as far to continue on his preaching tour even when he was extremly sick (Thus dying prematurely)
This is what the LDS Church says:
"For a time..was a restriction on the priesthood...Some have attempted to explain the reason for this restriction but these attempts should be viewed as speculation and opinion, not doctrine. The Church is not bound by speculation or opinions given with limited understanding.
An apostle has said the church doesn't believe in the doctrine that people with black skin failed to take sides in the premortal existence. But does an apostle outweigh past church prophets who did make that claim? The church really should take a stand.
Did I say something wrong? If you can point out my mistake I would be happy to correct it. There is nothing wrong with a sweeping generalization. If I said most living people have brains I don't think you would require scientific evidence to believe that one. It is common sense. If you can find a church that holds it's members to the same rigorous criteria of praying to know the truth of it's message like mine than point it out to me. Show me one church and I will take it back.
Lds church was first Church to allow black in their congregation and first to allow them to hold a priesthood in the US
The Church has disavowed the notion that people with black skin are guilty of poor performance in the pre-mortal existence which used to be taught. It has not formally rebuked or formally disavowed past teachings about the old Curse of Cain or lineage of Ham nonsense to my knowledge.
Great Comments by President Hinckley about Blacks and their role in the kingdom. Great man speaking of great people.
All I have to say is, Hinckly is a a FUCKING LIAR.
When bigotry is excused in the name of religion it is a dangerous thing. Religion cannot be allowed to be a way of justifying racism, social injustice, immorality and lack of ethics through scripture and claims of prophetic authority and threats of excommunication.
NO MATTER the explanation, whether given by a Prophet such as Gordon B. Hinckley, or someone as myself, it all depends on one's FAITH in that men receive MODERN revelations. If one does not believe that, then no amount of explanation would suffice. Best thing is that no one in our church has to go to school to hold the Priesthood, and NO ONE gets payed to minister to others, "And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing".
By the way there is also still LDS scripture passage of black skinned people being descended from Cain, and of skin color changing according to distance from God or purity. LDS apologists try to spin this as having nothing to do with skin, but your prophet/apostles are silent here. So, are black skinned people descended from Cain? Does skin color change according to closeness to God or distance from God? A bit of clarity here please.
Joseph Smith organized his very own church, complete with self-flattering scriptures.
I am sick and tired of seeing bigotry coddled. Please take a strong stand, don't coddle it. Don't let your church be associated with bigotry any longer. Change things. Stand up against statements and stances that carry racist overtones. Please!
May I suggest he spoke the truth. The reason is not revealed, It is not ours to give nor to withhold.
I never had any racist views, im black and i went to a school where i and my sister where the only white people while i lived in SA and never was a racist. But racistic views are deeprooted and very hard to get rid off. So you should not assume that someone is evil because they are racistic, but racism is a very humanlike.
So what is the other side of the story I am leaving out? Joseph used the same seer stone he told Peter Ingersoll he could see nothing in to translate the Book of Mormon in the exact same manner that he would look for hidden treasures, but admits that he never found anything.
You can call the story false, but I would really like to know what it is I'm missing that doesn't make this story extremely incriminating.
And yet again you are using the words of Joseph Smith to defend Joseph Smith.
I've heard of a man(member of church)received vision in Africa.the power of his words converting thousands.this was done during the years of the priesthood ban,it wasn't desputed that he received revelation ever.when the smoke cleared, he was made a patriarch. wich is a life long calling,who on constant basis receives revelation from God.
Some white priesthood holders were also unjustly and wrongly denied their priesthood based on racist views about ancestry. Got it. That does not change my stance that an injustice is wrong.
If you mistake my stance for that of an LDS apologist who condones Ezra Taft Benson's opposition to the civil rights movement or Bruce McConkie's outspoken white supremacy, it's your responsibility to take the time to actually read what people are saying.
Do you believe God has ever used skin color as a curse? The implications are serious when a church holds such a stance, and even now has not formally stated its stance on whether it still believes this or not.
2 things need to be brought out about the blacks and the priesthood. Eldred G. Smith opposed the ordination of the Blacks and was kicked out of his position as patriarch to the Church. That office was to remain forever D&C124. There was no revelation on the priesthood and Eldred told Kimball and the 12 that. 2nd,it was Pres Carter who put pressure on Kimball to change the doctrine which he did or he Carter would bring the gov against the Church. The Church changed and lost the higher priesthood.
Exactly because if they didn't stop the practice of dening Blacks The Pres was going to revoke the Churches tax exempt status for discrimination. See how that works; try taking money away from LDS church then in 1978 God conviently charges his
mind on who can and can't get priesthood
Just because God didn't tell the Prophet Gordon B Hinckley the reason why doesn't mean he is not a Prophet. God reveals what he wants to reveal. Some things are left to us to have faith on and to test our faith. If we had all the answers there would be nothing to test us on.
" spirits are willing to come to earth and take on bodies no matter what the handicap may be as to the kind of bodies they are to secure; and that among the handicaps, failure of the right to enjoy in mortality the blessings of the priesthood is a handicap which spirits are willing to assume in order that they might come to earth. Under this principle there is no injustice whatsoever involved in this deprivation as to the holding of the priesthood by the Negroes." The LDS first presidency, 1949
One thing about anti-mormons is that they don't believe God calls Prophets & Apostles , but they insist on defining their function, omniscience, etc for those of us who do believe God still calls them. Again, Peter, Paul, Barnabas, BY, JSmith, G Hinckley etc were not omniscient. They had opinions, made decisions, debated, disagreed. eg cicumcision was an eternal covenant, Jesus never said to do away with it, but they debated & apparently prayed etc & ended the practice. eg 2 Peter mistakenly believed other races were "unclean" & could not hold priesthood or even be Baptized etc. He may have said things on that, which didn't make it into the Bible & were not doctrine etc. if there were scribes you could take those opinions & post them on youtube & argue that "Mormons clearly teach that..." & "you just can't handle the truth of what your Church teaches" etc. This tactic is vicious & not Christian.
Actually the government can't force any church to wed a couple their religious tenets forbid. Government does force Catholic priest to wed Jews to Catholics and it doesn't force inter-racial marriages in the LDS. Obama isn't forcing birth control on the Catholic Church, he's forcing an employer to provide a benefit for its employees. Were you aware Catholic hospital are forbidden by state and federal laws from firing divorced or gay staff?
Most quorum of the 12 are called from the quorum of the seventy. Just because we don't have any dark skinned members of the 12 doesn't mean that the church is racist. I don't think the Quorum of the Twelve would have called any dark skinned people to the Quorum of the Seventy if they were racist.
I can live with that as a truce and a way to peace on the issue. "The ban being an undeniable part of our history and to not pass this shamefull tradition to our children" - Nice. I like that. "the ban was NOT a part of the restored gospel,but would fall under laws of men" - That would also be a path for progress on the issue. It allows for saying that the ban was a wrongful act of men, and not of God. Thank you.
The ban was a protective measure by God, to keep his church out of the Racism War until the world was ready for fully integrated churches. Joseph Smith Jr. had called several Black men to the Priesthood, one reaching the level of a Seventy before he died.
Being a perfect church, they sure have to make a lot of changes in policies and doctrines over the years. I'd love to see a real tough interview where they bring up the quotes from Brigham Young and then ask the current prophet to explain how it is they don't know why blacks were denied the priesthood before 1978 when Brigham Young clearly laid it out. Don't the current prophets read the words of the former prophets? Did Brigham say things he didn't actually know?
That doesn't mean they aren't racist.
Opposing racism isn't the same as what you imply. Do you personally believe any of the following: A. Cain's curse is black skin; B. People with black skin descend from Cain; C. Black skinned people do (or have in the past) carried a curse; D. Black skinned people were fence sitters in the pre-existence. Each of those have been taught. None of those have been formally rebuked (though Holland personally rebuked the fence sitting claim). And if the past priesthood ban wasn't wrong, why not?
The phrase "we're developing them" has a terrible echo of "white man's burden" way of thinking which has a horrifying legacy.
Your offended, by what I said?? For what reason. There was nothing I said that was offensive.
You don't have to be evangelical to oppose bigotry. And comparing yourself to Christ just because people are offended when you claim God wants you to restrict access to opportunities based on skin color is really ridiculous.
Everyone will go round and round about whether or not he was racist, it's very safe to say, NONE of us were there, so we really just don't know. It's so much more important to me to dwell in the present, not the past. I can only do right now, I can attest to past generations.
What is taken out of context? The question is, why did it take so long for Blacks to be given the priesthood. The answer: "I don't know, that's in the past" is not an answer. What context can that question and "answer" be put in that makes it a real answer? If we show the whole interview we get further treats of him not being able to explain the issue of Native American DNA so adding the full interview doesn't help anything.
IT WASN'T THE BLACK SKIN. IT WAS THE TRIBE THEY BELONGED TO WHICH WAS HAM WHO'S DESCENDANTS HAD BLACK SKIN. OTHER TRIBES HAD BLACK SKIN AND WERE NOT CURSED.
You once warned me about coming to the edge of stereotyping with a poorly - and carelessly - worded remark I made. I acknowledged you were correct. Careful not to approach that line yourself in making sweeping negative generalizations of "most Christian churches." I'll readily say you can fine some that are like that. But most? How would you go about supporting such a sweeping claim?
Racism by anyone including by evangelical Christians is wrong. Stay on topic. Right now the topic is the ban on the priesthood until 1978 in the LDS church? Was the ban of God? If so what does that imply about God's view of people with black skin? Was the ban wrong? If not, why not? What are current views on the curse of Cain and changing of skin color of Lamanites and performance by black skinned people in the pre-mortal existence?
Your reply has stated nothing at all. He did not truthfully answer the question, when, again, as the head of this, he would certainly know. Either he lied by omission because he was evasive, or he simply lied outright because he did not care to truthfully respond. Either way, he lied.
Actually, I did a quick check and it appears Hinkly did refute that the ban was racism, unless you have access to information I'm unaware of. In an interview with Hinkly by David Ransom (Nov. 09, 1997)
Ransom: So in retrospect was the Church wrong in that (priesthood ban)?
Hinkley: No I don't think it was wrong. It things, various things happened in different periods. There’s a reason for them.
Can you find a specific admission that the ban was wrong?
for those who are denying the priesthood and that there is no preisthood than keep that to yourself!!! no one cares about what you think unless is bothers them and in this case it bothers me that you people would deny something that maybe you have never witnessed but other have and i am standing up for what i believe in and i am grateful for the people that also satnd up for there religion especially if you are mormon. being a mormon is the best thing that could ever happen to me.
Like I said, I now find this conversation offensive. You may not be aware that claiming "black skin could have come from a mark of a curse from God" is offensive to many people.
All I ask is that if you're going to associate black skin with curses or with lack of access to rights such as priesthood ordination, admit you're a bigot. That's not of God. PS I'm not evangelical but I oppose bigotry.
Why do you keep making comments, yet offer no proof. What Catholic Seminary Book, what were their titles? Who are these scholars? Sorry unmentioned book and anonymous scholar opinion are meaningless
NO MATTER the explanation, whether given by a Prophet such as Gordon B. Hinckley------Could you explain why Hickley lied in the interview? He said he didn't know why Blacks were denied the priesthood, yet there are numerous quotes from prior Mormon Prophet from Young onward that clearly state Blacks were cursed with the mark of Cain. Even Smith said that in his Book of Moses.
If the "prophet" openly admits he doesn't know the mind of God, why are people still following him?
I said Brigham Young was racist. I did not say Mormons are racist, that would be a stereotype which is indefensible. There is a very troubling history which needs to be better addressed. I suggest the "Fourth Mission" is a good step. Arguing "we were bad but others were bad too" completely misses the point. You've got a problem on your hands. Face up to it please.
First, that has nothing to do with my previous answer or our dialogue. Second, it's a false and impossible to prove claim that in no other church is there encouragement for questioning. Have you read "The Cost of Discipleship" by Dietricht Bonnhoeffer for example?
TITHING IN ANY CHURCH OR SYNAGOGUE IS AN ACT OF OBEDIENCE, NOT A REQUIREMENT.
"he opposes all forms of racism both past and present the way the church does today" - agreed. I see no reason to suspect otherwise.
The difficulty is that the Church is unable to admit that something which clearly was wrong is, indeed, wrong. That's a problem.
It kind of goes to the thing of George Santayana warning about learning from mistakes of the past. I'm an advocate of open discussion.
"we just don't know?" - Prior to 1978 your prophets and apostles and Seventies and other scholars in the church repeatedly stated why. Do you really expect Bruce McConkie's pronouncement not to look at what was said prior to 1978 to work for non-Mormons? Have you seen his own statements about the matter in Mormon Doctrine (1958)?
I am referring to this comment: "If you ever want to test a member's ability to be tolerant, bring up the image of a black female prophet, and watch the facial reaction." It sounds kinda like you are pre-judging LDS people to be racist.
He doesn't know why it took so long for blacks to obtain the priesthood because he's not God. He's His prophet, and as such he takes orders from our great and eternal Head, not always knowing why. I know that Gordon B. Hinckley was and IS a true prophet of God. Please visit mormon dot org for more information.
If you are Mormon (I have no idea) I hope you will stand up for goodness and justice throughout your life. I see hope in your comments. Thank you. I meant what I said of George Romney, you might feel invigorated if you look into his life, he was very much a champion of civil rights in the 1960s. I'd encourage you to take a stand throughout your life like he did.
It's called social responsibility. People like me would like to see a sense of social responsibility which includes formally rebuking past racist stances of the church and church leaders. Vaguely saying you oppose racism isn't enough given that for the majority of the church's history that stuff I just cited was taught. Clarity at the very least is needed. And in a Christian sense there is something to be said for repentance and responsibility.
I think the traditional Christian teaching was that Blacks were descended from cain through Ham's wife (the Pope, Baptists, etc etc taught this) but the difference between LDS & mainstream Christians is that LDS didn't go around lynching & etc & LDS don't believe BY was infallible. He had ideas inherited from mainstream Christianity.
I removed my comment for grammatical editing.
Where did you come up with that idea? Jesus being trumped by a Catholic Monk? I never said that.
I'm take a wild guess and say you are a Baptist. If I'm correct or not what is your view on the Southern Baptist movement? Are or were they a racist Christian organization?
In full context that verse refers to a near famine in the land. People were suffering. There was malnutrition and disease.
Maybe there was a pandemic such as the bubonic plague? We don't know.
Bottom line, is the Bible literally a science book? I'd argue not, for instance I not only accept but have taught biological evolution. Neither do I see a curse or condemnation of people with black skin as being morally inferior in this verse. So, not sure of your point.
"why harass them" - this is a message board on youtube, it's not harassment, I wouldn't say this inside a church ward on a Sunday.
And hey if failing to take a stance on racism which is the real topic on this page gets you through the day, it's up to you.
You have made an accusation. Find specific words that demonstrate a "preconceived opinion not based on reason or experience." Or please demonstrate that I am stereotyping Mormons, engaging in "a widely held but fixed and oversimplified image or idea of a particular type of person (a Mormon) or (the LDS religion)."
"Next time try getting information from an unbiased source." What chapter of "How to Win Friends and Influence People" is that in? How about your disingenuous line " May God bless U" after calling people cockroaches? Is that in the same chapter or a different one?
There are bigger issues at work here than whether or not a person drinks a cup of tea. The church teaches basics of honesty, morality, accountability, and repentance, you and I both know those teachings. I'm just asking the church to be accountable by that standard.