Would love to see a deep dive video into burr geometry and why different burrs produce different flavor profiles. I hear coffee people talking about flat burrs producing more clarity, conicals producing more body, and now these conical burrs with flat burr profile, but I have no insight into why these differences are actually happening. Is it just particle size distribution? Or is it something about how each particle is actually cut?
Same. Was thinking maybe a side to side sifting of the standard burrs vs the cones, and maybe even a magnified look at the particles themselves. Would also like to know how many lbs have been through the standard mazzer burrs that were compared side by side, as the standard mazzers are known to need like 30lbs to properly break in (and possibly even more so with the Ti and Alpha coating)
This is a video I've always wanted to create with some leading industry folks but I just haven't had the capacity to undertake the project yet. I hope to make this video in the next year or two!
I primarily drink espresso medium roast blends with good sweetness and nutty caramelly chocolatey notes and combine it with some steamed milk to make cortados and flat whites. I personally don't drink much light roast with floral and fruity notes. How do you think the mc5 will perform for that flavour profile? Thanks in advance
Brian I really learned a lot from you videos. I am new to coffee and espresso-about one year and have a Flair 58 updated, and Flair hand grinder, - Pending is the Odyssey and Arco. Will you bet getting a an Orbit to review?
Dang bro now you’re making me want to get my kone on lol. Been loving my flat max SSW the past few months and am not ready to schedule in another purchase though 😆💙
Hey Zach the Kones are gonna pair really well with your SSW! I'm thinking about picking up another grinder just to fit SSP Brew/Cast in it as I'm making way more filter. I kinda just need to get back more into espresso haha, but there are some other pieces of equipment I'm working with soon that you'll 100% be interested in. Always appreciate your comments + support, cheers!
Liked this video alot, I was just wondering what are your thoughts regarding mazzer's 83mm conicals (hg1/2/1prime)? Where would they stand in between all of the aforementioned burrsets?
Brian, [down the road if you are interested and have spare time:) ] could you install Shurikone in your Helor 106 and describe in-the-cup differences vs MC4 with Shurikone burrs? This assuming your Helor 106 has Mazzer 0186c (71mm conical single phase burr) like the original MC4 main grinding burrs.
I just received mine a few days ago. So far I'm not tasting the magic. I tried a few shots right out of the box, then ran 10 lbs through to season, and tried them again. Maybe I just haven't dialed in the coffee properly.
... Although it could just be the coffee I was using that I had on hand. I switched to another espresso blend I am well familiar with this morning and it was quite good.
What are some specific coffees and types of shots you've pulled with the Shurikones, and what are your overall thoughts now that 5 months has went by? I'm thinking about picking up a set, new or second hand.
I reread my old post. I have been satisfied with the Shurikones. I switched back to the Mazzers at one point just to compare again and recalled slight preference for Shurikones, a little less harsh. I feel like other folks out there are more attuned to taste differences between burrs, and maybe my palate is just not that refined.
@@JusBThankful - in no particular order, I have used Caffe Lusso Gran Miscela Carmo (that's what Kafatek tests/ships with), Klatch Belle Espresso (med-dark), Black Oak Duomo (darker), and Amaya Temporada espresso blend (a touch lighter and I think sweeter). These are sort of reliable, middle-of-the-road in terms of cost, but all of them ship within a day or two of roast. I also tend to buy larger bags like 5lb or at least 2lb and then freeze in 16-oz Ball canning jars (take one jar out at a time and don't return to freezer).
Within the last year I: Got into coffee with cheap gear and a v60, upgraded the gear, got a flair, got an Ode, upgraded to the V2 burrs and am finally brewing coffee to my liking. Got into watches last month, start saving for one. After watching this video that Omega Speedmaster may need to wait......that poor flair needs more love, time to go conical.
Watches are a rabbit hole too haha very similar to coffee (especially grinders). V2 are fantastic for brew, but as of right now you can still get an MC5!
Can you recommend me a grinder to upgrade my Niche? I only drink light to medium roasts, never dark, and own a Decent De1. I cannot decide between p100, kafatek mc5, eg1, or something else? I have no experience with any of these
P100 if you're keeping the Niche (so you'll have both a flat and conical); MC5 if you're selling the Niche to offset cost. For light to medium the large flats on P100 would be the best among these according to general consensus on burr type and roast level.
@@elitebicycleracers thanks for the advice! I ended up preordering an MC5, coming in May :) that’ll replace the Niche, then I may consider getting a large flat like the P100 in future
Denis, if I remember correctly, says that they don't need to be seasoned at all. Had a quick look for his post, but couldn't find it. That said, I am fairly sure. You can always ask him again 😜
These produce a much better cup to me for espresso in terms of mouthfeel but the Key makes really great filter coffee that is much clearer than the kones. Plus you can play around with rpm control on the Key
What advantages would I gain by selling my p100 for a mc5 with these? I do lots of v60 and spro and the 98mm hu burrs are... Not what I thought for me, I'm using the mini more for spro
For filter it seems like the gold standard is big flats. If you’re not liking the HU in the p100, but primarily do filter brew, maybe consider swapping that for flat max with brew burrs which are said to be more nuanced and forgiving than the HU are
98mm HU do create a fair bit of fines for V60 so I'd recommend a swap to a different burr such as LU or Brew if brewing is your main focus. The MC5 would give you a much easier workflow as you wouldn't have to RDT, but if you are liking the mini the MC5 is basically everything you like in that cup profile but better.
@@ouikikazz haven't tried LU before, but Brew is insanely clear with short finish. It is very transparent but you need to be grinding almost near touch to pull anything above 6/7 bars (3-5 bar is where you want them to be anyway).
Good to see an actual good conical burr set, I agree fully with you regarding the old from mazzer, Italmill that those had a really harsh unpleasant finish, now I never will like anything about dark roast so I don’t agree on that. But funny how you think these resemble the cast 64, that’s interesting. But the fact you can with great success use Cast for filter for me make them a more versatile set and I personally trade that lose of body for that versatility, also the cast 64 is much cheaper more available and you can actually get a grinder for them. This has generally been my issue with most burrs, either these where fantastic at brew like the old EK43 and now SSP brew but you could only pull turbo shot with them. Or these where great at espresso but was not that great at brewed like 98mm SSP HU. The MP64 did okay but it was still not truly satisfying and I actually think the cast are the better versatile burrs because of the body and sweetness.
I have yet to try 98 LU or ULF but I feel the best balance for brew/filter so far is 98 Cast as it seems to create less fines for brew vs. 98 HU and you can grind them close enough for more traditional styles of shots!
@@BrianQuan Have not really tried the SSP version of the EK pre 2015 only the original that where probably one of my favourite burrs. These where actually good at those fast shots unfortunately Mahlkonig decided to screw them up. Yeah ULF and UL aren’t really burrs you see often they didn’t get the best of reception, but love to see some more through test of all these one day.
I can’t wait for mine now :’) it sounds like an SSP brew P100 would be a better pairing than a Flat MAX with shuriken (unless you really like the forgiveness of the SLM for filter) Is the clarity bump only because it allow for those higher flow shots or does traditional espresso/ristretto also have higher clarity?
I find my Brews as forgiving as I can ask for, and they are my first flats. It took time for me to adjust how I tasted and preferred things, but the moment it clicked it became idiot proof for me to dial in buttery smooth delicate cups. You just need to decide if you'd rather have beautifully layered delicate tea, or slightly more blended cups with a bit more finish.
You'll find a bump in clarity in everything with Kones vs. Mazzers! I like the MAX as I can also fit SSP in it whereas I can't put LM into a P100, so that to me is still the biggest advantage. I need to try LU and ULF too, but we can chat more about it on the discord :)
Most recently there has been a huge focus with burr designs to offer all purpose burrs that improve on everything. It's not out of the question burr designers will want to improve on good things and make bad things better. Think Ode Gen 2, SSP Cast, and now the Kones! If I have time I can setup a live double blind, but it's going to be hard as I don't have another MC4 nearby.
I love how detailed you are but really, buy two ultra high end grinders? I feel like you exist in a circle of rich people and have no concept of what budgets for most people are like.
Cigarettes are $11/pack in some parts of the country. A pack a day for a year would pretty much get you in 2 high end grinders. And these are built to pretty much last a lifetime
If you want an equivalent tier of grinder/burr to the MC4/5 another ultra high end grinder would be the ideal recommendation! But that is also why I recommend contrasting burrs such as the 64mm SSP MP that can be fit in $300 grinders and also mention the 98mm HU/Brew burrs that would be even better. In the context of the Kafatek Lineup I think the MAX pairs really well with the MC5 now. The problem is the MC4/MC5 are already so good that you have to go to the insanely high-end to find a grinder to recommend. Hope that helps!
@@BrianQuan listen I watch all of your videos and I think you’re great, I just think you don’t fully understand the teeeeeeeeeeeny tiny slice of the population that can afford two super high end grinders. Ex: when Hoffman reviewed the $2000 key, he repeated many times that he knows it’s more expensive than most coffee people can afford to spend on a grinder, whereas you make it sound like plopping down 6k on two grinders is just a normal purchase decision 🤣🤣 But it’s understandable, you’re in a circle of people who all have a lot of money.
@ihavenospacebar231 I definitely understand your point. But IMO it's not that he is out of touch with reality about money and what people can afford. I think it's more so that he's SO immersed in the coffee world that he's truly talking about the best of the best regardless of price and affordability. The fact that someone is looking at a 3k grinder by default puts them in an ultra-niche category that is looking for the best of the best and can justify this sort of price.
![BLACK BAG - Official Trailer [HD] - Only in Theaters March 14](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Du0Xp8WX_7I/mqdefault.jpg)
Been checking for this everyday since the teaser shot and your Kafatek forum post. Yay!
Someone please make an upgraded 63mm burr for the Niche. @GorillaGearCoffee where you at?
I was actually able to buy both the MC5 as well as the Flat Max. Thank you for the recommendation.
How do you like them? Is it worth having both?
Thank you for the info.
Hi Brian,
How is the shurikon conical compared to the eg-1 core ?
Thanks Brian!
Would love to see a deep dive video into burr geometry and why different burrs produce different flavor profiles. I hear coffee people talking about flat burrs producing more clarity, conicals producing more body, and now these conical burrs with flat burr profile, but I have no insight into why these differences are actually happening. Is it just particle size distribution? Or is it something about how each particle is actually cut?
Same. Was thinking maybe a side to side sifting of the standard burrs vs the cones, and maybe even a magnified look at the particles themselves. Would also like to know how many lbs have been through the standard mazzer burrs that were compared side by side, as the standard mazzers are known to need like 30lbs to properly break in (and possibly even more so with the Ti and Alpha coating)
This is a video I've always wanted to create with some leading industry folks but I just haven't had the capacity to undertake the project yet. I hope to make this video in the next year or two!
It would be extremely helpful a video on how to swap the burrs! It’s the only thing pushing me no to order the new burrs lol!
I was just able to get a pre-order for an MC5 🤟 I was leaning that way already, for a Niche upgrade, but this helped solidify it for me
Same here. Looking forward to May.
Any plans to review the shurikone mk2?
4:31 chip in the burr there?
How does the MC6 compare to the Weber EG-1? Could you have both?
What expresso machine is that on the left. Looks cool
Olympia cremina
Hey Brian, kind of late here, one question: what do you think about pairing the MC5 with EG1 (core and ultras)?
End game for sure.
I primarily drink espresso medium roast blends with good sweetness and nutty caramelly chocolatey notes and combine it with some steamed milk to make cortados and flat whites. I personally don't drink much light roast with floral and fruity notes. How do you think the mc5 will perform for that flavour profile? Thanks in advance
Do you plan on reviewing the Shurikone Mk2 burrs?
Hi Brian, Have you thought about replacing your Helor 106 burrs with the original Kafatek burrs to see if you notice a difference between the two?
I'll need to pick up another set of Shurikones to do that 😅
Why waste top notch Mazzer burrs for the hype/cost of the wannabes?
Its more expensive than a zerno with all 3 ssp burrs and 2 different augers. So whats the benefit to that?
Brian I really learned a lot from you videos. I am new to coffee and espresso-about one year and have a Flair 58 updated, and Flair hand grinder, - Pending is the Odyssey and Arco. Will you bet getting a an Orbit to review?
Any Idea how is the longelivity of this burrs? I cannot find it anywhere.
just wished these would fit the weber key. Then again, these are different in size. Even if there was an 83mm shurikones, the key would prolly stall
Dang bro now you’re making me want to get my kone on lol. Been loving my flat max SSW the past few months and am not ready to schedule in another purchase though 😆💙
Hey Zach the Kones are gonna pair really well with your SSW! I'm thinking about picking up another grinder just to fit SSP Brew/Cast in it as I'm making way more filter. I kinda just need to get back more into espresso haha, but there are some other pieces of equipment I'm working with soon that you'll 100% be interested in. Always appreciate your comments + support, cheers!
In you opinion: How this compare to the Titus?
Liked this video alot, I was just wondering what are your thoughts regarding mazzer's 83mm conicals (hg1/2/1prime)? Where would they stand in between all of the aforementioned burrsets?
I was wondering the same. I was able to secure the MC5 and already have the Key and VL M4. I’m looking forward to comparing them.
@@shawnsgearAny update on the comparison?
Great review! How would you compare the mc5 to bentwood for espresso ?
Now I am going to have to buy an MC5 to pair with my Titus
Brian, [down the road if you are interested and have spare time:) ] could you install Shurikone in your Helor 106 and describe in-the-cup differences vs MC4 with Shurikone burrs?
This assuming your Helor 106 has Mazzer 0186c (71mm conical single phase burr) like the original MC4 main grinding burrs.
I unfortunately don't have two sets of cones so doing this is going to be hard :(
I just received mine a few days ago. So far I'm not tasting the magic. I tried a few shots right out of the box, then ran 10 lbs through to season, and tried them again. Maybe I just haven't dialed in the coffee properly.
... Although it could just be the coffee I was using that I had on hand. I switched to another espresso blend I am well familiar with this morning and it was quite good.
What are some specific coffees and types of shots you've pulled with the Shurikones, and what are your overall thoughts now that 5 months has went by? I'm thinking about picking up a set, new or second hand.
I reread my old post. I have been satisfied with the Shurikones. I switched back to the Mazzers at one point just to compare again and recalled slight preference for Shurikones, a little less harsh. I feel like other folks out there are more attuned to taste differences between burrs, and maybe my palate is just not that refined.
@@elitebicycleracers can you list a handful of coffees that you regularly use?
@@JusBThankful - in no particular order, I have used Caffe Lusso Gran Miscela Carmo (that's what Kafatek tests/ships with), Klatch Belle Espresso (med-dark), Black Oak Duomo (darker), and Amaya Temporada espresso blend (a touch lighter and I think sweeter). These are sort of reliable, middle-of-the-road in terms of cost, but all of them ship within a day or two of roast. I also tend to buy larger bags like 5lb or at least 2lb and then freeze in 16-oz Ball canning jars (take one jar out at a time and don't return to freezer).
Within the last year I: Got into coffee with cheap gear and a v60, upgraded the gear, got a flair, got an Ode, upgraded to the V2 burrs and am finally brewing coffee to my liking. Got into watches last month, start saving for one. After watching this video that Omega Speedmaster may need to wait......that poor flair needs more love, time to go conical.
Watches are a rabbit hole too haha very similar to coffee (especially grinders). V2 are fantastic for brew, but as of right now you can still get an MC5!
Can you recommend me a grinder to upgrade my Niche? I only drink light to medium roasts, never dark, and own a Decent De1. I cannot decide between p100, kafatek mc5, eg1, or something else? I have no experience with any of these
P100 if you're keeping the Niche (so you'll have both a flat and conical); MC5 if you're selling the Niche to offset cost. For light to medium the large flats on P100 would be the best among these according to general consensus on burr type and roast level.
@@elitebicycleracers thanks for the advice! I ended up preordering an MC5, coming in May :) that’ll replace the Niche, then I may consider getting a large flat like the P100 in future
Do these ones need go be seasoned like TiN MC4 burrs? Because my MC4 needed like 12-13kg of coffee ti settle.
Denis, if I remember correctly, says that they don't need to be seasoned at all. Had a quick look for his post, but couldn't find it. That said, I am fairly sure. You can always ask him again 😜
Pre-seasoned
great if you are a Kafatek owner. I would buy these if you were not required to own a Kafatek. Could you imagine if Mazzer pulled this!
So I paid 500$ to unlock turbo light - longer ratio shots that I don’t drink? 😮
You've also unlocked sweeter and more apparent caramels/marshmallows/chocolate/better finish in meds/darks 😉
I can buy them off you, or have Denis transfer the order. What’s your UN on the kafatek forum, if you’re active there?
@@BrianQuan Now you talking 🔥. Thanks
@@JusBThankful they were available for a month on the kafatek store! Next run is in January 23. Hope you get them.
How easy is it for a normal person to fit the burrs? Hope it is easy. Nevertheless hit the button and am in the first batch.
ahh yes gimme them naruto burrs
Shurikones vs. SSP 64mm High Uniformity re: body, clarity, finish in espresso?
Kones better mouthfeel, I'd say even clearer. I haven't tried 64 HU in a while.
How this compared to Key Grinder?
These produce a much better cup to me for espresso in terms of mouthfeel but the Key makes really great filter coffee that is much clearer than the kones. Plus you can play around with rpm control on the Key
What advantages would I gain by selling my p100 for a mc5 with these? I do lots of v60 and spro and the 98mm hu burrs are... Not what I thought for me, I'm using the mini more for spro
For filter it seems like the gold standard is big flats. If you’re not liking the HU in the p100, but primarily do filter brew, maybe consider swapping that for flat max with brew burrs which are said to be more nuanced and forgiving than the HU are
Find someone to demo an MC4 and compare to your mini before taking the dive. If you’re mainly doing brew, maybe just keep it simple?
98mm HU do create a fair bit of fines for V60 so I'd recommend a swap to a different burr such as LU or Brew if brewing is your main focus. The MC5 would give you a much easier workflow as you wouldn't have to RDT, but if you are liking the mini the MC5 is basically everything you like in that cup profile but better.
@@BrianQuan how would you say the LU or Brew burrs are for spro compared to the HU?
@@ouikikazz haven't tried LU before, but Brew is insanely clear with short finish. It is very transparent but you need to be grinding almost near touch to pull anything above 6/7 bars (3-5 bar is where you want them to be anyway).
Good to see an actual good conical burr set, I agree fully with you regarding the old from mazzer, Italmill that those had a really harsh unpleasant finish, now I never will like anything about dark roast so I don’t agree on that.
But funny how you think these resemble the cast 64, that’s interesting. But the fact you can with great success use Cast for filter for me make them a more versatile set and I personally trade that lose of body for that versatility, also the
cast 64 is much cheaper more available and you can actually get a grinder for them.
This has generally been my issue with most burrs, either these where fantastic at brew like the old EK43 and now SSP brew but you could only pull turbo shot with them.
Or these where great at espresso but was not that great at brewed like
98mm SSP HU.
The MP64 did okay but it was still not truly satisfying and I actually think the cast are the better versatile burrs because of the body and sweetness.
I have yet to try 98 LU or ULF but I feel the best balance for brew/filter so far is 98 Cast as it seems to create less fines for brew vs. 98 HU and you can grind them close enough for more traditional styles of shots!
@@BrianQuan Have not really tried the SSP version of the EK pre 2015 only the original that where probably one of my favourite burrs. These where actually good at those fast shots unfortunately Mahlkonig decided to screw them up. Yeah ULF and UL aren’t really burrs you see often they didn’t get the best of reception, but love to see some more through test of all these one day.
I thought Pharos was your fav conical?!
I can’t wait for mine now :’) it sounds like an SSP brew P100 would be a better pairing than a Flat MAX with shuriken (unless you really like the forgiveness of the SLM for filter)
Is the clarity bump only because it allow for those higher flow shots or does traditional espresso/ristretto also have higher clarity?
I find my Brews as forgiving as I can ask for, and they are my first flats. It took time for me to adjust how I tasted and preferred things, but the moment it clicked it became idiot proof for me to dial in buttery smooth delicate cups. You just need to decide if you'd rather have beautifully layered delicate tea, or slightly more blended cups with a bit more finish.
You'll find a bump in clarity in everything with Kones vs. Mazzers! I like the MAX as I can also fit SSP in it whereas I can't put LM into a P100, so that to me is still the biggest advantage. I need to try LU and ULF too, but we can chat more about it on the discord :)
@@BrianQuan will you please send me your discord link?
I know, late to the party. How does MC5 compare to MC4 in terms of body, mouthfeel, flavor?
hi 👋, nice video! do they make 63 mm will fit niche zero or not
There is not and Kafatek only sells burrs to monolith owners. So forget it anyway 😂
how can this make good things better and bad thing better ... live double blind testing required
Most recently there has been a huge focus with burr designs to offer all purpose burrs that improve on everything. It's not out of the question burr designers will want to improve on good things and make bad things better. Think Ode Gen 2, SSP Cast, and now the Kones! If I have time I can setup a live double blind, but it's going to be hard as I don't have another MC4 nearby.
I love how detailed you are but really, buy two ultra high end grinders? I feel like you exist in a circle of rich people and have no concept of what budgets for most people are like.
Cigarettes are $11/pack in some parts of the country. A pack a day for a year would pretty much get you in 2 high end grinders. And these are built to pretty much last a lifetime
@@JusBThankful people that smoke cigarettes are drinking folgers.
If you want an equivalent tier of grinder/burr to the MC4/5 another ultra high end grinder would be the ideal recommendation! But that is also why I recommend contrasting burrs such as the 64mm SSP MP that can be fit in $300 grinders and also mention the 98mm HU/Brew burrs that would be even better. In the context of the Kafatek Lineup I think the MAX pairs really well with the MC5 now. The problem is the MC4/MC5 are already so good that you have to go to the insanely high-end to find a grinder to recommend. Hope that helps!
@@BrianQuan listen I watch all of your videos and I think you’re great, I just think you don’t fully understand the teeeeeeeeeeeny tiny slice of the population that can afford two super high end grinders.
Ex: when Hoffman reviewed the $2000 key, he repeated many times that he knows it’s more expensive than most coffee people can afford to spend on a grinder, whereas you make it sound like plopping down 6k on two grinders is just a normal purchase decision 🤣🤣
But it’s understandable, you’re in a circle of people who all have a lot of money.
@ihavenospacebar231 I definitely understand your point. But IMO it's not that he is out of touch with reality about money and what people can afford. I think it's more so that he's SO immersed in the coffee world that he's truly talking about the best of the best regardless of price and affordability. The fact that someone is looking at a 3k grinder by default puts them in an ultra-niche category that is looking for the best of the best and can justify this sort of price.