What a great video Andrew, I really enjoy listening to Frik as he knows how to explain the technologies in layman’s terms so it is easier to understand.
Very informative, thanks for this deep dive. I have one in my garage for multiple uses including heating my greenhouse in the winter UK. I discovered the hard way last winter how it stops working at 0 degrees Celsius and below. It is now in a well insulated box...fingers crossed for this winter.
Not sure about old mate's interpretation of the standard. 5.4.12.3.4 Monitoring device Each battery (or bank of batteries) shall be monitored via a battery monitor designed for managing lithium ion batteries. The monitor shall display the state of charge (SoC) and may display voltage. Communications with the monitor may be by wired or wireless connection direct to the battery management safety system. Nothing about a permanent connection either wired and wireless. Only SOC is mandatory, doesn't need to be internal so a Bluetooth shunt and a mobile device is compliant.
Since the standard is somewhat unclear in its wording, in order to clarify the intent, this question was posed to both the NSW and WA regulators on the interpretation of this requirement. See the question and answer provided below which clarifies that the regulators' interpretation is that the monitor must remain with the system, hence the comments that a phone-based monitor alone is not compliant: QUESTION: “Is a battery with a management system connected to a smartphone with an app, using Bluetooth, considered a suitable ‘battery monitor’ or does it need to be a monitor that is located and fixed within the vehicle/ transportable structure?” NSW REGULATOR RESPONSE: “I would suggest the monitor needs to be fixed within the vehicle. Comms between the product can be wireless as per above.” WA REGULATOR RESPONSE: “The requirements of the monitoring device fall under the overall requirements of Clause 5.4.12.3 “Battery management safety system” because it is a sub-clause of this section. Clause 5.4.12.3.2 “Location” requires that the battery management safety system is no greater than 600mm from the battery. As the monitoring device is a part of this system it is also required to be located no more than 600mm from the battery. Therefore it must be located within the vehicle/transportable structure and cannot be via a smartphone app.“
I had a 55Ah Lithium battery as my 2nd battery in the engine bay of my Aussie spec FJ cruiser (4L petrol engine / battery mounted at the front of the engine bay on the passenger side) - I was excited initially, as it replaced an aged Ultima yellow top and gave effectively twice the capacity and was 1/3rd of the weight - now, first thing to say is that in this location my battery temperature gets to around 50 degrees C - second, after 2 years it started to fail, in that the battery management system was frequently shutting down (a big pain) and the battery capacity had decreased from 55Ah to around 15Ah - not sure if it was a cheap brand or just representative of Lithium under bonnet in general - now I’m back to AGM and am happy again
Amazing how late to the lithium party caravan and 4x4 people are! Some still hanging on to their AGM and for some weird reason they all want to use lithium as starter batteries?? Lithium wasn't designed for starter batteries, it for power storage. It's not just lithium that has revolutionised off-grid power but Victron has made leaps and bounds in providing very reliable controls, monitors and inverters! That has been a perfect way of getting the most out of lithium batteries. Victron should be awarded a noble prize for innovation!
@@louis__bmno doubt lithium battery manufacturers are definitely trying to make a reliable starter battery, anywhere they see a potential market they will try to capitalise! They can try and insulate it from the extreme summer and have inbuilt heaters for the winter. Program the BMS to deliver a peak 1000 or so cranking amps to turn the starter. But a hot engine bay is still no place for a lithium battery the degradation will be 2 or 3 times as fast then there is the issue of reliable charging as again alternators are not designed for lithium battery charge profiles. Your hybrid battery uses pouch cells which are a little more energy dense than prismatic or cylindrical and can take the knocks and bumps. I'd be interested in how it goes long term! 3 year warranty is not bad!
Most RVs older than 5yrs don't have chargers that support Li. Changing to Li can be very expensive exercise, could be up for new DC-DC, AC-DC, Solar chargers on top of new battery price.
IDK about Li being for storage only. Check out some of the cells available that can supply 70C (that's not a typo) LTO is even better for power, but is even less energy dense than LiFePO4. For starting you could also use a supercapacitor battery. They take up even less space and can handle more heat. They just can't store much energy.
@@jensdenk9235I'm not questioning the output capability of lithium, the previous guys comment on he's Invicta hybrid starter battery can produce 1400 CCA with pouch cells! but lithium likes to be charged and discharged in cycles. Short high discharge bursts and then recharging is again detrimental to the life of the battery. It's imo an expensive short term way of starting your vehicle.
That was extremely helpful. Lots of ‘opinion’ out there so really good to hear from an expert. When will Amptron start a UK distribution/install business - I’m more convinced than ever that a reputable, knowledgable installation service is the only way to go!
Andrew, changed the batteries in my caravan to lithium ( Blue Nova 105's) and what a pleasure. I have a Victron 30-amp DC to Dc to charge when travelling and a 600-watt panel on the companion's roof. In hind sight I should on replaced the two lead acid unit with one LIFEP04. Great information from all your vlogs. Regards
RE: starter batteries. If you need deep cycle for other things, replace the starter battery with long life supercaps and connect them to the (Lithium) deep cycle battery with a current limiting shunt. LiFePO4's keep the supercaps topped off, engine drains the supercaps to start without sucking tons of amps from the LiFePO4 bank.
Depending on the manufacturer, you should also avoid having Li batteries sitting at 100% for extended periods. Size the system for 30 to 90% normal use. Then, when you need the extra capacity, change the profile to 20 to 100%, and you get the extra you need without fuss, and your battery will last longer.
2:36 You said this a few years ago. For my engine bay (Ram 2500 Cummins 5.9) I use an IOXUS Ultracapacitor on starter side and XS POWER Titan8 Lithium Battery on the alternator side. Both designed for engine bays and high amperage loads. The ultracap takes the load off of the LTO lithium battery which allows both to last many times longer and they both have built-in management. IOXUS Ultracap has (an optional) free bluetooth app and a jump start reserve in the case it senses a low voltage event.
Correct me if I am wrong but I have seen at least 2 people with lithium batteries stating that their car starts better/quicker and also that their winch pulls significantly harder and also they are able to run all their accessories while winching
@hawk3356 Youre right. Faster, less stressed starting(less wear and rest on the starter. The LiFePO4 battery has a lower internal resistance, which means it charges up quicker. Battery shields / blankets can help mitigate the heat problem. I would like to see more research about the increase in efficiency of LiFePO4 vs LA. I've put one in my EV and it seems I'm getting about 8% more range. I assume that because LA batteries are "forced" full even when they are full. EVs don't have the heat in the engine bay problem. The biggest issue with LA is the sudden death.
Any chance you could condense all that to 5 minutes, maybe just the facts? I am far too busy to watch all that. If you were doing a build, I'd watch, but man, too long. Ciao
From AI (Gemini): This video discusses the evolution of lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4) batteries and their impact on the overlanding and camping community. The video highlights the advantages of LiFePO4 batteries over traditional lead-acid batteries, including higher energy density, longer cycle life, and improved safety. The video also discusses the importance of battery management systems (BMS) in ensuring the safety and longevity of LiFePO4 batteries. BMS systems monitor the voltage, temperature, and current of each battery cell, preventing overcharging, over-discharging, and overheating. The video concludes by emphasizing the need for compliance with safety standards and regulations, particularly regarding the display of battery information. It is important to have a physical display that provides information about the battery's state of charge, voltage, and other relevant data, even if the battery system can be monitored remotely through a smartphone app.
@@joezephyr. The battery in your phone is designed for your phone alone. The battery in a van has to accommodate DIFFERENT draws from various appliances, so, depending on each one’s consumption you end up with different end voltages. (W/V=A)
One reason I can see for a lithium starter battery: You are building a race car and want to save weight, cost and longevity be damned. For a 4x4 overland vehicle you are 100% correct.
Yup, but even with an Overlander, you should really look at the weight and savings as it does also effects it big time ! I have got a 24 volt system (HZJ 75) !
I do think there is a large benefit for most people who are getting into offroading.. You could have one battery which is your crank battery and your accessories battery.. It could remove the need for a dual battery system.. This is a pretty big pro. Especially cost wise..
Thanks Andrew for your video. I would love to hear a Few of these battery manufacturers/suppliers together to ba able to respond to the under bonnet application. Using verified data. I have been using them for about 41/2 years and no failures, being for a continuous power requirement when parked that a Lead-Acid battery cannot provide. Vehicle real estate and the lack of needing DCDC chargers and other paraphernalia are why i use under bonnet. While not pointing the finger. there is an air of finger pointng here. I would genuinly like to know the real truth.
While starter LiFeP04 battery may not be ideal in hot 4wD, they are ideal in aircraft where weight is everything. The other place is in boats where they aren't exposed the temperature extremes and deep cycle is very useful for driving electronics for hours while engine is off.
Well, I'm glad you got something out of the video. Full disclosure is necessary and complete. this does not quality as a paid promotion. Even if you think it does.
Using LifePO4 as a starter battery is a complete phoney side track. Putting a LifePO4 as a house battery under the bonnet for convenience is an important discussion. I've had a LifePO4 under bonnet for 7 years and 90,000k's - only problem was faulty battery monitor shunt - 2016 Prado.
Only reason to fit a Lithium starter battery would be for increased capacity to support simple camper equipment loads such as lights, fridge etc in one underbonnet battery. In a LR Defender the starter battery is located under the seatbox so temperature is not an issue therefore additional capacity of Lithium starter battery would be beneficial in an overland or camper with dual Underseat battery setup but as it’s not sealed it does not comply it seems.
I'm building a suburban, the lithium batteries will most likely be under the vehicle on the opposite side as the fuel tank. Separated by the drive and water tanks.
Just a correction on your video title. Li is the chemical symbol for Lithium, Fe, not fe, is the chemical symbol for Iron, P is the chemical symbol for Phosphorous and obviously O is Oxygen. Thus the battery technology you are talking about here is LiFePO4, not LifePO, Lithium Iron Phosphate. The first letter of a chemical symbol is always a capital letter and the second one a small letter, never two small letters, no matter if it is in the middle of a compound name or not.
Not quite true about the 100Ah lead acid battery - it cannot take 100A for 1 hr, it's likely to have a 'c' value of 0.2 meaning it can take 20% of that 100A ie 20A per hour, so it takes 5x as long to charge...
😅The video says the hard shunt monitoring is not complying with the newest requirement. I have a secondary lithium battery inside a battery box inside my 4wd connected to a battery monitor via shunt. Am I legit?
It is only new builds that need to worry about the new standards. So builds after nov 2023. Also not applicable if you sleep in the vehicle. Also portable battery boxes don't apply.
Does this mean anybody who has got life po battery systems inside there caravan, ie under seats or in the back of a 4wd , legally have to change them and put them on the outside
@@4xoverlandSince you receive batteries free It was an assumption that you are stocked with fresh batteries all the time. no one talks about older lithium batteries and whether the bms lasts the distance.
Better quality ones will last longer. Stands to reason. Testing one battery or battery maker and labelling all of them with the results will be worthless.
Wait wait, I have been using a LifePO4 battery to start my car. It's a cheap one, almost same price as a standard car battery. Should I replace it? Is it going to blow up if I continue using it? I have this battery since begining of this year
It won't last if used under the bonnet, the heat under there will cause it to shorten it's life, replace it with an AGM and use the lithium as a 2nd battery, maybe put it into a battery box and use as a portable
A high end sports car might want to use a lithium battery in a starting application because they want to save every gram they can and are accepting of the cost. But I can’t see the point in a four wheel drive.
🤔 ... 🇦🇺 AUSSIE Company (Brisbane) _Graphene Manufacturing Group $GMG_ will give LifePo serious competition with their _Aluminium Ion_ cells late 2025: ✅ Fire proof/ puncture inert/ short inert/ no thermal runaway = seriously safe ✅ 300-400% Capacity over LifePO ✅ 60x Faster Charging !
Absolute crap, 5.4.12.3.4 Monitoring device Each battery (or bank of batteries) shall be monitored via a battery monitor designed for managing lithium ion batteries. The monitor shall display the state of charge (SoC) and may display voltage. Communications with the monitor may be by wired or wireless connection direct to the battery management safety system. "Translation does not demand monitor MUST BE CONNECTED TO BMS it states MAY. Another manufacturer twisting the regs to suit their own narrative. Shall means must and may means optional. Its also states wireless is acceptable.
I'm not sure anything is being twisted I think this is just an interpretation. The valid point was that there is no individual battery soc and voltage when you have packs in parallel if using the shunt. Using Coms via the BMS you can drill into the detail of each battery.
Since the standard is somewhat unclear in its wording, in order to clarify the intent, this question was posed to both the NSW and WA regulators on the interpretation of this requirement. See the question and answer provided below which clarifies that the regulators' interpretation is that the monitor must remain with the system, hence the comments that a phone-based monitor alone is not compliant: QUESTION: “Is a battery with a management system connected to a smartphone with an app, using Bluetooth, considered a suitable ‘battery monitor’ or does it need to be a monitor that is located and fixed within the vehicle/ transportable structure?” NSW REGULATOR RESPONSE: “I would suggest the monitor needs to be fixed within the vehicle. Comms between the product can be wireless as per above.” WA REGULATOR RESPONSE: “The requirements of the monitoring device fall under the overall requirements of Clause 5.4.12.3 “Battery management safety system” because it is a sub-clause of this section. Clause 5.4.12.3.2 “Location” requires that the battery management safety system is no greater than 600mm from the battery. As the monitoring device is a part of this system it is also required to be located no more than 600mm from the battery. Therefore it must be located within the vehicle/transportable structure and cannot be via a smartphone app.“
@@4xoverland Ok thanks, I'll have to read the the standard, as I am currently setting up a 4WD with a portable system and will soon commence a renovation to a caravan with a fixed system.
It sounds like only connectable systems, so if you don't have a 240V inlet on your 4WD you should be good! Also sounds like a win for the ute's, battery in the tub, tub isn't habitable space! What gets me is, not accessible from the habitable space? Might need to buy a copy of the AS/NZS 3001 and have a read! Also interested how this plays out in the 4xoverland HiAce build!
If a lithium battery only takes up half the space for the same lead-acid battery, isn't a good reason for under-bonnet lithium, that you can have a "half-size" starter battery, with another half-size lithium for accessories. all in the one pre-existing battery tray? It's obviously going to work out more expensive, but provides a legitimate option for people with nowhere else to put a secondary battery?
Eveeryone fighting for turf. Won't take long and the DCDC is part of the Battery as are all monitoring components. Which brings us back to the question....is a dumb battery block plus a solenoid less prone to failure than a highly complex integrated battery system? Guess the truth lies like always somewhere in the middle - btw....number of ad interruptions gets a bit annoying.
Solenoids create such high voltage drops that the aux battery never gets a full charge. Ever. AND, LiFePO4 batteries require a higher voltage than lead acid. If they are charged at the same or lower voltage (in the case of a solenoid system) they can never, ever be fully charged. Its physics. That's why DC-DC chargers exist.
The ad interruptions is not Andrew's fault, it's RUclips making money. I download the videos, and then watch them without an Internet connection. No ads😊
The most objective supplier on the planet here, but nobody can convince me that the manufacturers have any idea of what the effect of hours of brutal corrrugations will be on the inevitably dodgy looking mechanical restraint of the BMS gubbings, which always looks designed to chafe cables and fatigue its soldered joints. Show me a perspex LiFePO4 battery casing with military / aviation grade cable management visible and maybe I'll abandon AGM.
You make a fair point. I've been using these for about 5 years, and encountered brutal corrugations many, many times. Actually,. just last week some of the worst I've ever encountered. My Africa trip this year, the roads were truly terrible - week after week. Not a single failure yet.
Thats what I also immediately said. The Afrikaans sounding name, and the South African accent 😊 So much easier on a South African ear than an Aussie accent, or heaven forbid Scottish 🤭
I get offered free batteries weekly by dozens of new battery startups all over the world. But I support this battery company because they, unlike every other one, do not recommend under-bonnet installations. Does that not say something about them?
If this is your perception Darren then I don't think anyone can help you change it. I for one am grateful to have discovered Amptron 3 years ago through watching Andrew's videos and consider the offering in this current video as helping to explain the technology pure and simple. The knowledge and service from Amptron and what their products have offered us so far stands out from many players in the LifePO4 realm I also consider Andrew to have enough credibility with those who understand his motivation, and as much he has offered you an explanation I really don't think the fan base will miss you:)
I found the video very interesting and informative. It didn't feel like it was pushing Amptron specifically in any way. Applies to all LiFePo4 batteries
As long as lithium batteries spontaneously combust when thermal runaway due to an external heat source remains I will never fit them inside a vehicle. No electronic battery management system can prevent this. This will lead to offgassing of lethal compounds and the resulting fire cannot be controlled by any fire extinguisher because the electrolyte contains it's own source of oxygen. I will continue to use lead acid leasure batteries until solid state lithium batteries have been developed without the risk of fire. Mobile phones, laptops, aircraft and car carrying ships have all caught fire despite battery management and active cooling systems. Perhaps I'll wait for sodium batteries before changing
For the benefit of anyone reading the comment I’m replying to, this is a very uninformed comment. Do your own research into the safety of LiFePO4 batteries, how many have “spontaneously combusted”, whether off gassing actually happens with this chemistry etc. Don’t take the word of randoms on the internet - which includes me. But for the record: lead acid leisure batteries can off gas too
@@hoadieit seems like no matter the efforts of some to dispel the fears of lithium and fire risks, some people just can't get their head around it. Whilst old mate is still waiting for his sodium batteries I'll continue to comfortably run the Amptron 200ah in our caravan and the Amptron 100ah in our ute. Currently 18 months of solid use as we work/travel the country full time.
@ I do watch him mate, very few Aussie companies will show the inside of their batteries yet charge an absolute premium for their products with the build quality being unknown. If you’re going to tell us how good it is show us the build quality inside.
Really great, informative video! Man you gotta love ASPW’s passion for all this stuff
You owe me nothing. Yet, here you are- giving back. Nice work Andrew, much appreciated.
What a great video Andrew, I really enjoy listening to Frik as he knows how to explain the technologies in layman’s terms so it is easier to understand.
Frik is the reason we have Amptron batteries in our caravan and vehicle. Along with the products the aftersales service has been fantastic.
Is Frik a natural Aussie? His name and accent sound very South African 'built' 😁👍🏻
Very informative, thanks for this deep dive. I have one in my garage for multiple uses including heating my greenhouse in the winter UK. I discovered the hard way last winter how it stops working at 0 degrees Celsius and below. It is now in a well insulated box...fingers crossed for this winter.
What an informative discussion!! Thanks Andrew. Frik is a total guru of LFP batteries and battery system design.
Great video, reinforced a lot of what I had learned and some new things.
Keep up the good work
Very informative.
The complex nature of these batteries was very well explained.
Very informative, thank you Andrew!
Thanks for sharing and taking us along
Not sure about old mate's interpretation of the standard.
5.4.12.3.4 Monitoring device
Each battery (or bank of batteries) shall be monitored via a battery monitor designed for managing lithium ion batteries. The monitor shall display the state of charge (SoC) and may display voltage. Communications with the monitor may be by wired or wireless connection direct to the battery management safety system.
Nothing about a permanent connection either wired and wireless.
Only SOC is mandatory, doesn't need to be internal so a Bluetooth shunt and a mobile device is compliant.
Since the standard is somewhat unclear in its wording, in order to clarify the intent, this question was posed to both the NSW and WA regulators on the interpretation of this requirement. See the question and answer provided below which clarifies that the regulators' interpretation is that the monitor must remain with the system, hence the comments that a phone-based monitor alone is not compliant:
QUESTION: “Is a battery with a management system connected to a smartphone with an app, using Bluetooth, considered a suitable ‘battery monitor’ or does it need to be a monitor that is located and fixed within the vehicle/ transportable structure?”
NSW REGULATOR RESPONSE: “I would suggest the monitor needs to be fixed within the vehicle. Comms between the product can be wireless as per above.”
WA REGULATOR RESPONSE: “The requirements of the monitoring device fall under the overall requirements of Clause 5.4.12.3 “Battery management safety system” because it is a sub-clause of this section. Clause 5.4.12.3.2 “Location” requires that the battery management safety system is no greater than 600mm from the battery. As the monitoring device is a part of this system it is also required to be located no more than 600mm from the battery. Therefore it must be located within the vehicle/transportable structure and cannot be via a smartphone app.“
I had a 55Ah Lithium battery as my 2nd battery in the engine bay of my Aussie spec FJ cruiser (4L petrol engine / battery mounted at the front of the engine bay on the passenger side) - I was excited initially, as it replaced an aged Ultima yellow top and gave effectively twice the capacity and was 1/3rd of the weight - now, first thing to say is that in this location my battery temperature gets to around 50 degrees C - second, after 2 years it started to fail, in that the battery management system was frequently shutting down (a big pain) and the battery capacity had decreased from 55Ah to around 15Ah - not sure if it was a cheap brand or just representative of Lithium under bonnet in general - now I’m back to AGM and am happy again
Very honest and informative.
Great video thank you
Thanks for this video, it’s really good to get factual information from a manufacturer.
Thanks, Andrew, for another informative video.
Great vid Andrew. Thanks for sharing important information that all should be aware of.
Very clear and concise video, thanks to you both. However I will keep my AGM batteries for the foreseeable future, I feel safer.
Very informative. Thanks.
Amazing how late to the lithium party caravan and 4x4 people are! Some still hanging on to their AGM and for some weird reason they all want to use lithium as starter batteries??
Lithium wasn't designed for starter batteries, it for power storage.
It's not just lithium that has revolutionised off-grid power but Victron has made leaps and bounds in providing very reliable controls, monitors and inverters! That has been a perfect way of getting the most out of lithium batteries. Victron should be awarded a noble prize for innovation!
I got a pretty great invictia lithium hybrid battery, combining a starter and house battery in one. Wouldn't go for something else
@@louis__bmno doubt lithium battery manufacturers are definitely trying to make a reliable starter battery, anywhere they see a potential market they will try to capitalise!
They can try and insulate it from the extreme summer and have inbuilt heaters for the winter. Program the BMS to deliver a peak 1000 or so cranking amps to turn the starter. But a hot engine bay is still no place for a lithium battery the degradation will be 2 or 3 times as fast then there is the issue of reliable charging as again alternators are not designed for lithium battery charge profiles.
Your hybrid battery uses pouch cells which are a little more energy dense than prismatic or cylindrical and can take the knocks and bumps. I'd be interested in how it goes long term! 3 year warranty is not bad!
Most RVs older than 5yrs don't have chargers that support Li. Changing to Li can be very expensive exercise, could be up for new DC-DC, AC-DC, Solar chargers on top of new battery price.
IDK about Li being for storage only. Check out some of the cells available that can supply 70C (that's not a typo) LTO is even better for power, but is even less energy dense than LiFePO4. For starting you could also use a supercapacitor battery. They take up even less space and can handle more heat. They just can't store much energy.
@@jensdenk9235I'm not questioning the output capability of lithium, the previous guys comment on he's Invicta hybrid starter battery can produce 1400 CCA with pouch cells! but lithium likes to be charged and discharged in cycles. Short high discharge bursts and then recharging is again detrimental to the life of the battery. It's imo an expensive short term way of starting your vehicle.
Thank you Andrew, appreciated 👍
That was extremely helpful. Lots of ‘opinion’ out there so really good to hear from an expert. When will Amptron start a UK distribution/install business - I’m more convinced than ever that a reputable, knowledgable installation service is the only way to go!
Excellent video thanks Andrew just the facts without all the usual sales BS
Thanks for doing this video
Andrew, changed the batteries in my caravan to lithium ( Blue Nova 105's) and what a pleasure. I have a Victron 30-amp DC to Dc to charge when travelling and a 600-watt panel on the companion's roof. In hind sight I should on replaced the two lead acid unit with one LIFEP04. Great information from all your vlogs. Regards
Very impressive information thank you Andrew
Oh Andrew, how could we live without your knowledge.😂
RE: starter batteries. If you need deep cycle for other things, replace the starter battery with long life supercaps and connect them to the (Lithium) deep cycle battery with a current limiting shunt. LiFePO4's keep the supercaps topped off, engine drains the supercaps to start without sucking tons of amps from the LiFePO4 bank.
Depending on the manufacturer, you should also avoid having Li batteries sitting at 100% for extended periods. Size the system for 30 to 90% normal use. Then, when you need the extra capacity, change the profile to 20 to 100%, and you get the extra you need without fuss, and your battery will last longer.
2:36 You said this a few years ago.
For my engine bay (Ram 2500 Cummins 5.9) I use an IOXUS Ultracapacitor on starter side and XS POWER Titan8 Lithium Battery on the alternator side. Both designed for engine bays and high amperage loads. The ultracap takes the load off of the LTO lithium battery which allows both to last many times longer and they both have built-in management. IOXUS Ultracap has (an optional) free bluetooth app and a jump start reserve in the case it senses a low voltage event.
Correct me if I am wrong but I have seen at least 2 people with lithium batteries stating that their car starts better/quicker and also that their winch pulls significantly harder and also they are able to run all their accessories while winching
@hawk3356 Youre right. Faster, less stressed starting(less wear and rest on the starter. The LiFePO4 battery has a lower internal resistance, which means it charges up quicker. Battery shields / blankets can help mitigate the heat problem. I would like to see more research about the increase in efficiency of LiFePO4 vs LA. I've put one in my EV and it seems I'm getting about 8% more range.
I assume that because LA batteries are "forced" full even when they are full. EVs don't have the heat in the engine bay problem.
The biggest issue with LA is the sudden death.
Any chance you could condense all that to 5 minutes, maybe just the facts? I am far too busy to watch all that. If you were doing a build, I'd watch, but man, too long. Ciao
From AI (Gemini): This video discusses the evolution of lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4) batteries and their impact on the overlanding and camping community. The video highlights the advantages of LiFePO4 batteries over traditional lead-acid batteries, including higher energy density, longer cycle life, and improved safety.
The video also discusses the importance of battery management systems (BMS) in ensuring the safety and longevity of LiFePO4 batteries. BMS systems monitor the voltage, temperature, and current of each battery cell, preventing overcharging, over-discharging, and overheating.
The video concludes by emphasizing the need for compliance with safety standards and regulations, particularly regarding the display of battery information. It is important to have a physical display that provides information about the battery's state of charge, voltage, and other relevant data, even if the battery system can be monitored remotely through a smartphone app.
@mozartheart2958 you're awesome
@@mozartheart2958. Man, you’re fabulous!
@@mozartheart2958 Thank you and....with my phone I wish to know the state of charge but why would I wish to know the voltage of a battery?
@@joezephyr. The battery in your phone is designed for your phone alone. The battery in a van has to accommodate DIFFERENT draws from various appliances, so, depending on each one’s consumption you end up with different end voltages. (W/V=A)
Great work . A LOT of " De-mystification " right here , today .
Very informative video. Bugger all likes but I thought it was a very interesting video and I learnt from it.
Spot on
One reason I can see for a lithium starter battery:
You are building a race car and want to save weight, cost and longevity be damned.
For a 4x4 overland vehicle you are 100% correct.
Yup, but even with an Overlander, you should really look at the weight and savings as it does also effects it big time ! I have got a 24 volt system (HZJ 75) !
Fricken good stuff
Brilliant insight
I do think there is a large benefit for most people who are getting into offroading.. You could have one battery which is your crank battery and your accessories battery.. It could remove the need for a dual battery system..
This is a pretty big pro. Especially cost wise..
If its one battery, then the accessories could drain it so it then fails to crank. That's why split charge solutions exist.
Thanks Andrew for your video. I would love to hear a Few of these battery manufacturers/suppliers together to ba able to respond to the under bonnet application. Using verified data. I have been using them for about 41/2 years and no failures, being for a continuous power requirement when parked that a Lead-Acid battery cannot provide. Vehicle real estate and the lack of needing DCDC chargers and other paraphernalia are why i use under bonnet. While not pointing the finger. there is an air of finger pointng here. I would genuinly like to know the real truth.
While starter LiFeP04 battery may not be ideal in hot 4wD, they are ideal in aircraft where weight is everything. The other place is in boats where they aren't exposed the temperature extremes and deep cycle is very useful for driving electronics for hours while engine is off.
Do these restrictions apply for shore power AND habitable space or either ?
Cycle life of LiFePO4, in our application, can be utterly neglected. Unless you aim to run your vehicle with that very battery over 10 years.
Theres a typo in your intro it says this not a paid promo. 'Paid in kind' still counts as payment I believe.
Well, I'm glad you got something out of the video. Full disclosure is necessary and complete. this does not quality as a paid promotion. Even if you think it does.
Enerdrive says its batteries can be discharged down to 20% to prolong life. Going below 20% may reduce battery life.
Thats exactly what Frik said in this video
Using LifePO4 as a starter battery is a complete phoney side track.
Putting a LifePO4 as a house battery under the bonnet for convenience is an important discussion.
I've had a LifePO4 under bonnet for 7 years and 90,000k's - only problem was faulty battery monitor shunt -
2016 Prado.
this is good to hear.
what brand?
Definitely not a DCS 🤭
Only reason to fit a Lithium starter battery would be for increased capacity to support simple camper equipment loads such as lights, fridge etc in one underbonnet battery.
In a LR Defender the starter battery is located under the seatbox so temperature is not an issue therefore additional capacity of Lithium starter battery would be beneficial in an overland or camper with dual Underseat battery setup but as it’s not sealed it does not comply it seems.
also people with gvm/ axle weight issues
The beard suits you , like an aging guru :)
You've missed a lot of videos! Its been 8 months.
I'm still stuck in the dark ages using lead acid. I still camp very basic and my electrical requirements are not much more than a fridge
Then, AGM is the right choice for you. It's still lead acid, but it's also a deep cycle (sort of)
I'm building a suburban, the lithium batteries will most likely be under the vehicle on the opposite side as the fuel tank. Separated by the drive and water tanks.
Just a correction on your video title. Li is the chemical symbol for Lithium, Fe, not fe, is the chemical symbol for Iron, P is the chemical symbol for Phosphorous and obviously O is Oxygen. Thus the battery technology you are talking about here is LiFePO4, not LifePO, Lithium Iron Phosphate. The first letter of a chemical symbol is always a capital letter and the second one a small letter, never two small letters, no matter if it is in the middle of a compound name or not.
thank you for that clarity. I shall correct it.
Not quite true about the 100Ah lead acid battery - it cannot take 100A for 1 hr, it's likely to have a 'c' value of 0.2 meaning it can take 20% of that 100A ie 20A per hour, so it takes 5x as long to charge...
😅The video says the hard shunt monitoring is not complying with the newest requirement. I have a secondary lithium battery inside a battery box inside my 4wd connected to a battery monitor via shunt. Am I legit?
It is only new builds that need to worry about the new standards. So builds after nov 2023. Also not applicable if you sleep in the vehicle. Also portable battery boxes don't apply.
Does this mean anybody who has got life po battery systems inside there caravan, ie under seats or in the back of a 4wd , legally have to change them and put them on the outside
Hi Andrew, how old is your oldest lithium battery?
100ah about 5 years old. South African build, 2x100ah about 4 years old. Why do you ask?
@@4xoverlandSince you receive batteries free It was an assumption that you are stocked with fresh batteries all the time. no one talks about older lithium batteries and whether the bms lasts the distance.
Better quality ones will last longer. Stands to reason. Testing one battery or battery maker and labelling all of them with the results will be worthless.
Wait wait, I have been using a LifePO4 battery to start my car. It's a cheap one, almost same price as a standard car battery. Should I replace it? Is it going to blow up if I continue using it?
I have this battery since begining of this year
It won't last if used under the bonnet, the heat under there will cause it to shorten it's life, replace it with an AGM and use the lithium as a 2nd battery, maybe put it into a battery box and use as a portable
@@-PORK-CHOP- oh my starter battery is not under the hood, it's under the driving seat. Can I still keep it as it is?
@@sirculito15893Get an Odyssey battery.
@@sirculito15893the issues are around heat. As long as it’s not getting hot then it should be fine.
A high end sports car might want to use a lithium battery in a starting application because they want to save every gram they can and are accepting of the cost. But I can’t see the point in a four wheel drive.
🤔 ... 🇦🇺 AUSSIE Company (Brisbane) _Graphene Manufacturing Group $GMG_ will give LifePo serious competition with their _Aluminium Ion_ cells late 2025:
✅ Fire proof/ puncture inert/ short inert/ no thermal runaway = seriously safe
✅ 300-400% Capacity over LifePO
✅ 60x Faster Charging !
Tx good info.. but too many interupting ads.
Do what I do. Download the video, then watch it without an Internet connection. Voila, no ads😅
Absolute crap,
5.4.12.3.4 Monitoring device
Each battery (or bank of batteries) shall be monitored via a battery monitor designed for managing lithium ion batteries. The monitor shall display the state of charge (SoC) and may display voltage. Communications with the monitor may be by wired or wireless connection direct to the battery management safety system.
"Translation does not demand monitor MUST BE CONNECTED TO BMS it states MAY. Another manufacturer twisting the regs to suit their own narrative. Shall means must and may means optional. Its also states wireless is acceptable.
I'm not sure anything is being twisted I think this is just an interpretation. The valid point was that there is no individual battery soc and voltage when you have packs in parallel if using the shunt. Using Coms via the BMS you can drill into the detail of each battery.
Since the standard is somewhat unclear in its wording, in order to clarify the intent, this question was posed to both the NSW and WA regulators on the interpretation of this requirement. See the question and answer provided below which clarifies that the regulators' interpretation is that the monitor must remain with the system, hence the comments that a phone-based monitor alone is not compliant:
QUESTION: “Is a battery with a management system connected to a smartphone with an app, using Bluetooth, considered a suitable ‘battery monitor’ or does it need to be a monitor that is located and fixed within the vehicle/ transportable structure?”
NSW REGULATOR RESPONSE: “I would suggest the monitor needs to be fixed within the vehicle. Comms between the product can be wireless as per above.”
WA REGULATOR RESPONSE: “The requirements of the monitoring device fall under the overall requirements of Clause 5.4.12.3 “Battery management safety system” because it is a sub-clause of this section. Clause 5.4.12.3.2 “Location” requires that the battery management safety system is no greater than 600mm from the battery. As the monitoring device is a part of this system it is also required to be located no more than 600mm from the battery. Therefore it must be located within the vehicle/transportable structure and cannot be via a smartphone app.“
So based in the discussion, battery boxes in the back of a 4WD are no longer compliant? Is the standard retrospective?
As far as I know, portable battery boxes do not need to comply.
@@4xoverland Ok thanks, I'll have to read the the standard, as I am currently setting up a 4WD with a portable system and will soon commence a renovation to a caravan with a fixed system.
It sounds like only connectable systems, so if you don't have a 240V inlet on your 4WD you should be good! Also sounds like a win for the ute's, battery in the tub, tub isn't habitable space!
What gets me is, not accessible from the habitable space? Might need to buy a copy of the AS/NZS 3001 and have a read! Also interested how this plays out in the 4xoverland HiAce build!
If a lithium battery only takes up half the space for the same lead-acid battery, isn't a good reason for under-bonnet lithium, that you can have a "half-size" starter battery, with another half-size lithium for accessories. all in the one pre-existing battery tray? It's obviously going to work out more expensive, but provides a legitimate option for people with nowhere else to put a secondary battery?
Sadly, it's not that simple.
It's more like half the weight, not half the physical size
Eveeryone fighting for turf. Won't take long and the DCDC is part of the Battery as are all monitoring components. Which brings us back to the question....is a dumb battery block plus a solenoid less prone to failure than a highly complex integrated battery system? Guess the truth lies like always somewhere in the middle - btw....number of ad interruptions gets a bit annoying.
Solenoids create such high voltage drops that the aux battery never gets a full charge. Ever. AND, LiFePO4 batteries require a higher voltage than lead acid. If they are charged at the same or lower voltage (in the case of a solenoid system) they can never, ever be fully charged. Its physics. That's why DC-DC chargers exist.
The ad interruptions is not Andrew's fault, it's RUclips making money. I download the videos, and then watch them without an Internet connection. No ads😊
The most objective supplier on the planet here, but nobody can convince me that the manufacturers have any idea of what the effect of hours of brutal corrrugations will be on the inevitably dodgy looking mechanical restraint of the BMS gubbings, which always looks designed to chafe cables and fatigue its soldered joints. Show me a perspex LiFePO4 battery casing with military / aviation grade cable management visible and maybe I'll abandon AGM.
You make a fair point. I've been using these for about 5 years, and encountered brutal corrugations many, many times. Actually,. just last week some of the worst I've ever encountered. My Africa trip this year, the roads were truly terrible - week after week. Not a single failure yet.
@4xoverland I've been thinking about a suspension mounting for batteries, with a braided output cable arrangement.
Lithium batteries run my house.
Cool but I would never mount the battery inside the house.
Neither would I. Been off grid for years.
@@MegaWilderness but you would leave a mobile phone in your house.
Same here
@@douger1517 It's a much smaller battery but could also be lethal in an enclosed space
Ah yes. Another ex South African who has settled in Perth.
Thats what I also immediately said. The Afrikaans sounding name, and the South African accent 😊
So much easier on a South African ear than an Aussie accent, or heaven forbid Scottish 🤭
So this is just a plug for the Battery company who gives him batteries for free. I used to like this guy once upon a time but no thanks now.
I get offered free batteries weekly by dozens of new battery startups all over the world. But I support this battery company because they, unlike every other one, do not recommend under-bonnet installations. Does that not say something about them?
If this is your perception Darren then I don't think anyone can help you change it. I for one am grateful to have discovered Amptron 3 years ago through watching Andrew's videos and consider the offering in this current video as helping to explain the technology pure and simple. The knowledge and service from Amptron and what their products have offered us so far stands out from many players in the LifePO4 realm
I also consider Andrew to have enough credibility with those who understand his motivation, and as much he has offered you an explanation I really don't think the fan base will miss you:)
I found the video very interesting and informative. It didn't feel like it was pushing Amptron specifically in any way. Applies to all LiFePo4 batteries
Also why do people rate lithium in amp hours to suit the boomers. It should be KW or KWh.
They are rated in both, it's on the sticker of the battery
My hilux has 120kw's it doesnt have amp hours ahahaha....but my lifepo4 batter is 100ah, my AGM was 120ah, super easy to understand
I prefer amp hours
@@Tom-lf8hx umm..your Hilux has Kw because it’s a measurement of power just like lithium batteries.
@@darwinsdrongodrivers as I said easier for boomers, bit like inches and feet.
As long as lithium batteries spontaneously combust when thermal runaway due to an external heat source remains I will never fit them inside a vehicle. No electronic battery management system can prevent this. This will lead to offgassing of lethal compounds and the resulting fire cannot be controlled by any fire extinguisher because the electrolyte contains it's own source of oxygen. I will continue to use lead acid leasure batteries until solid state lithium batteries have been developed without the risk of fire. Mobile phones, laptops, aircraft and car carrying ships have all caught fire despite battery management and active cooling systems. Perhaps I'll wait for sodium batteries before changing
For the benefit of anyone reading the comment I’m replying to, this is a very uninformed comment.
Do your own research into the safety of LiFePO4 batteries, how many have “spontaneously combusted”, whether off gassing actually happens with this chemistry etc.
Don’t take the word of randoms on the internet - which includes me.
But for the record: lead acid leisure batteries can off gas too
@@hoadieit seems like no matter the efforts of some to dispel the fears of lithium and fire risks, some people just can't get their head around it. Whilst old mate is still waiting for his sodium batteries I'll continue to comfortably run the Amptron 200ah in our caravan and the Amptron 100ah in our ute. Currently 18 months of solid use as we work/travel the country full time.
All that talk and no tear down of a battery. If I’m going to spend my hard earned I want to see what’s hiding inside
You need to watch Will Prowse then
@ I do watch him mate, very few Aussie companies will show the inside of their batteries yet charge an absolute premium for their products with the build quality being unknown. If you’re going to tell us how good it is show us the build quality inside.