God bless u sir. God is our parent, our friend and also our relative. he shares with us his own life, his freedom and his constant support in unconditional love. for creation is God's own manifestation. if creation suffers the creator suffers 100 times more.
His response to the problem of animal suffering is by far the weakest of his arguments. Apparently Dr. Swinburne has never run across a dog that was just hit by a car and is dying in agony in the middle of the street.
Richard Swinburne is one of the most outstanding scholars of our time. He has contributed greatly to substance dualism and has advanced powerful arguments for the existence of the soul. I have listened to him on several podcasts and platforms and each time I am fascinated by his excellent articulation and the element of exhaustive analysis present in his answers. I salute him .🙏
@ A loving God allowing suffering is how you could lose faith in that proposed God. So then why does God allow suffering if it can cause a loss of faith?
His arguments on the topic of evil seem insufficient to me. He's saying that any amount of suffering can be compensates by an eternity in heaven, and that the suffering serves a purpose by providing an opportunity for moral growth, but this does not cover all situations of natural evil. For example, which moral growth comes from the existance of numerous deadly childhood genetic diseases ? For the vast majority of such cases in all of human history babies simply suffered and died, and their parents learned nothing from it morally or otherwise, because they did not have the knowledge to understand what was happening, or the ability to do anything about it. Aside from this it is also an argument that rests entirely on faith, since you have to believe in an eternal afterlife as one of the premises, so there seems little point in pretending that the conclusion that follows is based on logic. In other words he seems to have found a way to rationalize the problem of evil from within a Christian world view, but has done nothing to convince anyone outside of that world view.
@@ImpatientTheist... you can give God a credit or thanks for allowing your lost soul a temporary life's chance to be saved from returning to emptiness (hell) through having faith...
Every circumstance should not be labeled "suffering". 8:54 minutes into it and all I hear is that everyone, including God, has the right to impose suffering on us. I need to take a break. No offense to Mr Swinburne, but I'm "suffering" having to listen to this.
Muslims pray five times a day, do fasting 30 days in Ramadan and do other supplementary fasting, then Muslims help needy and poor with charity Zakah , charity Sadakah, charity fitrah and then Muslims perform hajj and then Muslims turn to God in seeking forgiveness and depend on God's mercy and forgiveness for their salvation. And then Christians expect God Himself to frame Jesus to go up on the cross and be killed for Christians salvation to come. In the sight of God a Muslim and a Christian are equal?
..existence of Aware God is understandably closer to the truth rather than Unconscious Bigbang out of NOTHING as origin of life and consciousness or awareness..
"Evil, Atonement, and Evidence against God" Atonement can only be achieved by simply having sincere faith in a Loving GOD without knowing HIM so for all our lost souls to be welcomed back to Heaven which is our Original Home.. Our Original Sin was actually a sin against our souls when we abandoned our HOME because we lost faith in GOD's LOVE for greed... It is us who punish our souls by choice who are now suffering because we are far away from HOME where love, warmth, and comfort abound... ...we left Heaven because we had this "belief without knowing" that we can be as powerful as God if we find this Forbidden Knowledge, despite God's plea and warning that there is only Emptiness and Suffering beyond Heaven... ..our souls ended in a cold dark emptiness (hell) instead, as GOD had warned... we created our hell, only our free souls to blame. GOD never punished a soul.. It is us who punished ourselves by choice.. ..so, hell is not evidence against God but evidence of the consequence of our free choice... Devils, demons, et al, in hell are just common words to describe fallen angels who are our lost souls.. ...our lost souls were sent to earth to dwell inside physical vessels for chance of salvation by regaining our "faith" without knowing in a loving GOD, because we asked for this chance... our physical human vessels serve as shields to knowledge of our spiritual pasts for us to be able to Choose Freely to have faith without knowing... ...again, we lost Heaven because we lost faith, so, only by regaining this faith that we all can return HOME, ie., by believing without knowing in a loving GOD - this is like walking back to the same road we walked on to leave HOME, so to retrun HOME, through faith... Hell is not a Lake of Fire but a cold dark emptiness - an absence of GOD's grace... The reason why many misunderstood hell as a lake of fire is because ghostly loud sounds of screams, moans, and cries of souls can be heard as they relive and feel all the sufferings and pains they caused on their neighbors, as if they are burning in flames.... This physical world was created to represent Heaven and Hell in the spiritual realm to provide us hints that there is better or worse place hereafter to hopefully find faith in a loving God for our salvation... ..Tornadoes, Hurricanes, Diseases, or all SUFFERINGS that represent Hell can not destroy our immortal souls... only without faith in a loving God can hurt our souls... If we fail to regain our faith, our prior bad choice of abandoning Heaven will remain in effect and, so, our lost free souls will return to a state of NOTHINGNESS (hell) because GOD always respects our free choice and, so, can not force us Home.... ..in other words, our rewards and punishment or our eternal fate does NOT rely on GOD's WILL but rely solely on our free will to choose... our WILL is no longer GOD's Will after GOD split Himself into free souls (us) just to have a free family to love and to be loved freely... If we freely choose to be EVIL, then it is our free souls to blame not God.... Please help me share this heavenly light I received to ALL whether you believe or not...
I have watched every Closer to Truth video at their website -- some two or three times. The "God/Theology" category is my least favorite. I sense that Robert thought this category needed to be included to cover the bases. I also sense he is least comfortable interviewing these people. Maybe I'm wrong. And, in my view, Richard Swinburne and William Lane Craig are among the worst.
The Buddha didn't speak about Evil; it's a Christian term. He spoke about unwholesome and harmful thoughts and deeds caused by Mental Defilements/Pollutions. Ignorance and Delusion, Selfish Craving and Attachment, Aversion, Hatred and Ill will, which include resentment, jealousy and envy. When we make the effort to purify our minds using mindfulness and the wisdom of impermanent and no permanent, separate Self or Ego-center, we can act with loving kindness, compassion, patience, forgiveness, and calmness.
Fish don't feel pain????? Of course they do. If it is the same mechanism or a different one, who cares. That is so xenophobic. So wrong to think of ourselves as separate and unique among the living beings.
Clearly, we are here to experience all things, including adversity. How else could we learn about truth and meaning? If we were already perfect and only needed to find our true nature then God is playing a very stupid game. Which isn't at all rational. We are more than temporary beings. We are immortal souls that exist within God, and God is within each and everyone of us, guiding us from within and from without.
1. I generally like Swinburne, but I think he and many proclaimed modern Christians miss what Christianity was originally about. Christianity traditionally considered suffering and evil as something not to be rendered intelligible or not to be justified, and considered this world as fallen. Where you see suffering and evil you see not the face of god but the face of his enemy. The downside of such approach is that it leads you with either a sort of powerless deity or with atheism, but at least it is not a morally corrupt one. These attempts to offer theodices or to justify suffering and evil are quite a departure from original Christianity. 2. Theodicies are implausible, and when I say implausible, I am being charitable. Theists themselves neither follow nor propagate them in reality, which shows they don't even believe their grotesque theodicies. Would Mr. Swinburne really allow his children to inflict pain and suffering on each other for the sake of not violating their free will? Would he just allow them to torture each other so they can form character? How does that even help to form character? Why is the freedom of will or anything else in such scenario more important than all the extreme pain and suffering you can prevent? Intuitively, it isn't so. Freedom is a problematic value. Furthermore, there is a difference between freedom of will and freedom of action. If anything, the limitation is imposed upon action, not will. If someone prevents you from doing X, that doesn't make you a robot without free will. 3. To suggest that animals don't feel pain is ludicrous and in conflict with the evidence and our basic intuitions. Even a child can tell this proposition is wrong. You cannot even explain animal behavior without invoking pain, the same way you cannot explain human behavior. We infer they feel pain on the same grounds we infer other humans feel pain. But if you think you can explain their behavior, then at least be consistent and apply it to other humans as well!
Christian’s are answering those who are critical of their believe in an all powerful, all loving God. Should they not answer those critics? Are they justified to not ask the question themselves? These approaches do lead to a limited god or atheism, that is why the problem of evil is such a strong argument against the Christian God. Christian’s could answer it succinctly if they were willing for their dogmatic view of God to change.
@ImpatientTheist Good for them, except they have failed to comprehend the original message of Christianity. As an ex Orthodox Christian myself, I am baffled. I repeat that Christianity traditionally considered suffering/evil to be unintelligible while these guys go around trying to render it intelligible. Not like they have succeeded in doing that. Theodicies are daft.
@@ImpatientTheist You can simply give up sovereignty and omnipotence, but that leaves you with a powerless deity where there are things outside its control. It would still be a morally admirable approach, though. But going around trying to justify the horrors of this world? Absolutely no!
@ I agree. But if i have to give up anything, then i will just give up on everything. I can’t do that. Swinburne should stop whatever it is he thinks he is doing.
...the genuine evidence of nonsense is your science' theory that you are a conscious product of Unconscious Bigbang out of NOTHING that is now driving you to worship Darwin's Anchovy as your Original Mommy looking funny...
Jesus said: "the father is greater than I am." (John 14:28) Clearly, the father is greater than Jesus. At John 20:17, Jesus also said, "I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God." The father is God for Jesus. That leaves no room for any triune God. The trinity doctrine was borrowed from pagan religion. It is not a biblical teaching.
In John, Jesus says the Father judges no one has but has given all judgement to the Son (John 5:22-24). In Matthew 28: 18-20 Jesus says all authority on heaven and earth has been given to him, and says he will be with you until the end of the age, suggesting Jesus after Ascension will return to omniscience and omnipresence.
@MarkPatmos The father is the giver of the authority. Even in that statement, it is abundantly clear that the father is the greater one. The son is never equal to the father. Are you equal to your father who gave you birth?
![Chris Langan - The Interview THEY Didn't Want You To See - CTMU [Full Version; Timestamps]](/img/1.gif)
God bless u sir. God is our parent, our friend and also our relative. he shares with us his own life, his freedom and his constant support in unconditional love. for creation is God's own manifestation. if creation suffers the creator suffers 100 times more.
Thank you for bringing professor swinburne back!!
His response to the problem of animal suffering is by far the weakest of his arguments. Apparently Dr. Swinburne has never run across a dog that was just hit by a car and is dying in agony in the middle of the street.
...animals have no aware immortal souls to be aware of pain but just driven by a program that science describe as "Natural Instincts"
Richard Swinburne is one of the most outstanding scholars of our time. He has contributed greatly to substance dualism and has advanced powerful arguments for the existence of the soul. I have listened to him on several podcasts and platforms and each time I am fascinated by his excellent articulation and the element of exhaustive analysis present in his answers. I salute him .🙏
It is clear this man has never truly suffered.
...suffering can not destroy our immortal souls.. only without faith or losing faith in a loving God can hurt our souls..
@ A loving God allowing suffering is how you could lose faith in that proposed God. So then why does God allow suffering if it can cause a loss of faith?
This is a masterclass in having a true worldview.
True? This is sophistry at its most embarrassing.
Ah, must run...
If only infinity were far enough.
His arguments on the topic of evil seem insufficient to me. He's saying that any amount of suffering can be compensates by an eternity in heaven, and that the suffering serves a purpose by providing an opportunity for moral growth, but this does not cover all situations of natural evil. For example, which moral growth comes from the existance of numerous deadly childhood genetic diseases ? For the vast majority of such cases in all of human history babies simply suffered and died, and their parents learned nothing from it morally or otherwise, because they did not have the knowledge to understand what was happening, or the ability to do anything about it.
Aside from this it is also an argument that rests entirely on faith, since you have to believe in an eternal afterlife as one of the premises, so there seems little point in pretending that the conclusion that follows is based on logic.
In other words he seems to have found a way to rationalize the problem of evil from within a Christian world view, but has done nothing to convince anyone outside of that world view.
..it is his sincere faith in the loving God that matters that can save his lost soul and not how he interpret suffering...
God put us here to live are lives.any evil is the evil we bring on are selves and others .don't blame god
By your reasoning you should also not give God credit for anything good we do.
@@ImpatientTheist... you can give God a credit or thanks for allowing your lost soul a temporary life's chance to be saved from returning to emptiness (hell) through having faith...
Every circumstance should not be labeled "suffering". 8:54 minutes into it and all I hear is that everyone, including God, has the right to impose suffering on us. I need to take a break. No offense to Mr Swinburne, but I'm "suffering" having to listen to this.
Muslims pray five times a day, do fasting 30 days in Ramadan and do other supplementary fasting, then Muslims help needy and poor with charity Zakah , charity Sadakah, charity fitrah and then Muslims perform hajj and then Muslims turn to God in seeking forgiveness and depend on God's mercy and forgiveness for their salvation.
And then Christians expect God Himself to frame Jesus to go up on the cross and be killed for Christians salvation to come.
In the sight of God a Muslim and a Christian are equal?
"Further from Truth" would be better ....
..existence of Aware God is understandably closer to the truth rather than Unconscious Bigbang out of NOTHING as origin of life and consciousness or awareness..
@@evaadam3635 maybe the universe has always existed....
"Evil, Atonement, and Evidence against God"
Atonement can only be achieved by simply having sincere faith in a Loving GOD without knowing HIM so for all our lost souls to be welcomed back to Heaven which is our Original Home..
Our Original Sin was actually a sin against our souls when we abandoned our HOME because we lost faith in GOD's LOVE for greed... It is us who punish our souls by choice who are now suffering because we are far away from HOME where love, warmth, and comfort abound...
...we left Heaven because we had this "belief without knowing" that we can be as powerful as God if we find this Forbidden Knowledge, despite God's plea and warning that there is only Emptiness and Suffering beyond Heaven...
..our souls ended in a cold dark emptiness (hell) instead, as GOD had warned... we created our hell, only our free souls to blame. GOD never punished a soul.. It is us who punished ourselves by choice..
..so, hell is not evidence against God but evidence of the consequence of our free choice... Devils, demons, et al, in hell are just common words to describe fallen angels who are our lost souls..
...our lost souls were sent to earth to dwell inside physical vessels for chance of salvation by regaining our "faith" without knowing in a loving GOD, because we asked for this chance... our physical human vessels serve as shields to knowledge of our spiritual pasts for us to be able to Choose Freely to have faith without knowing...
...again, we lost Heaven because we lost faith, so, only by regaining this faith that we all can return HOME, ie., by believing without knowing in a loving GOD - this is like walking back to the same road we walked on to leave HOME, so to retrun HOME, through faith...
Hell is not a Lake of Fire but a cold dark emptiness - an absence of GOD's grace... The reason why many misunderstood hell as a lake of fire is because ghostly loud sounds of screams, moans, and cries of souls can be heard as they relive and feel all the sufferings and pains they caused on their neighbors, as if they are burning in flames....
This physical world was created to represent Heaven and Hell in the spiritual realm to provide us hints that there is better or worse place hereafter to hopefully find faith in a loving God for our salvation...
..Tornadoes, Hurricanes, Diseases, or all SUFFERINGS that represent Hell can not destroy our immortal souls... only without faith in a loving God can hurt our souls...
If we fail to regain our faith, our prior bad choice of abandoning Heaven will remain in effect and, so, our lost free souls will return to a state of NOTHINGNESS (hell) because GOD always respects our free choice and, so, can not force us Home....
..in other words, our rewards and punishment or our eternal fate does NOT rely on GOD's WILL but rely solely on our free will to choose... our WILL is no longer GOD's Will after GOD split Himself into free souls (us) just to have a free family to love and to be loved freely... If we freely choose to be EVIL, then it is our free souls to blame not God....
Please help me share this heavenly light I received to ALL whether you believe or not...
I have watched every Closer to Truth video at their website -- some two or three times. The "God/Theology" category is my least favorite. I sense that Robert thought this category needed to be included to cover the bases. I also sense he is least comfortable interviewing these people. Maybe I'm wrong. And, in my view, Richard Swinburne and William Lane Craig are among the worst.
This fellow uses sophistry well.
That's all he has.
The Buddha didn't speak about Evil; it's a Christian term. He spoke about unwholesome and harmful thoughts and deeds caused by Mental Defilements/Pollutions. Ignorance and Delusion, Selfish Craving and Attachment, Aversion, Hatred and Ill will, which include resentment, jealousy and envy. When we make the effort to purify our minds using mindfulness and the wisdom of impermanent and no permanent, separate Self or Ego-center, we can act with loving kindness, compassion, patience, forgiveness, and calmness.
Fish don't feel pain????? Of course they do. If it is the same mechanism or a different one, who cares. That is so xenophobic. So wrong to think of ourselves as separate and unique among the living beings.
Clearly, we are here to experience all things, including adversity. How else could we learn about truth and meaning? If we were already perfect and only needed to find our true nature then God is playing a very stupid game. Which isn't at all rational. We are more than temporary beings. We are immortal souls that exist within God, and God is within each and everyone of us, guiding us from within and from without.
Swinburne is a mighty fine scholar and thinker. I don't always agree with him theologically, but I've enjoyed his writings and lectures immensely.
Respect for the knowledge of Richard Swinburne but God talk isn't my cup of tea.
1. I generally like Swinburne, but I think he and many proclaimed modern Christians miss what Christianity was originally about.
Christianity traditionally considered suffering and evil as something not to be rendered intelligible or not to be justified, and considered this world as fallen. Where you see suffering and evil you see not the face of god but the face of his enemy. The downside of such approach is that it leads you with either a sort of powerless deity or with atheism, but at least it is not a morally corrupt one.
These attempts to offer theodices or to justify suffering and evil are quite a departure from original Christianity.
2. Theodicies are implausible, and when I say implausible, I am being charitable. Theists themselves neither follow nor propagate them in reality, which shows they don't even believe their grotesque theodicies.
Would Mr. Swinburne really allow his children to inflict pain and suffering on each other for the sake of not violating their free will? Would he just allow them to torture each other so they can form character? How does that even help to form character? Why is the freedom of will or anything else in such scenario more important than all the extreme pain and suffering you can prevent? Intuitively, it isn't so. Freedom is a problematic value. Furthermore, there is a difference between freedom of will and freedom of action. If anything, the limitation is imposed upon action, not will. If someone prevents you from doing X, that doesn't make you a robot without free will.
3. To suggest that animals don't feel pain is ludicrous and in conflict with the evidence and our basic intuitions. Even a child can tell this proposition is wrong. You cannot even explain animal behavior without invoking pain, the same way you cannot explain human behavior. We infer they feel pain on the same grounds we infer other humans feel pain.
But if you think you can explain their behavior, then at least be consistent and apply it to other humans as well!
Christian’s are answering those who are critical of their believe in an all powerful, all loving God. Should they not answer those critics? Are they justified to not ask the question themselves?
These approaches do lead to a limited god or atheism, that is why the problem of evil is such a strong argument against the Christian God.
Christian’s could answer it succinctly if they were willing for their dogmatic view of God to change.
@ImpatientTheist Good for them, except they have failed to comprehend the original message of Christianity. As an ex Orthodox Christian myself, I am baffled.
I repeat that Christianity traditionally considered suffering/evil to be unintelligible while these guys go around trying to render it intelligible. Not like they have succeeded in doing that. Theodicies are daft.
@ If God is good, would there not be an intelligible answer? Or does God not even know why God does not stop suffering? 🤷♂️
@@ImpatientTheist You can simply give up sovereignty and omnipotence, but that leaves you with a powerless deity where there are things outside its control.
It would still be a morally admirable approach, though.
But going around trying to justify the horrors of this world? Absolutely no!
@ I agree. But if i have to give up anything, then i will just give up on everything. I can’t do that.
Swinburne should stop whatever it is he thinks he is doing.
Wow. A lifetime of trying to justify nonsense.😕
...the genuine evidence of nonsense is your science' theory that you are a conscious product of Unconscious Bigbang out of NOTHING that is now driving you to worship Darwin's Anchovy as your Original Mommy looking funny...
Why do you think you know more than RLK?
Jesus said: "the father is greater than I am." (John 14:28) Clearly, the father is greater than Jesus. At John 20:17, Jesus also said, "I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God." The father is God for Jesus. That leaves no room for any triune God. The trinity doctrine was borrowed from pagan religion. It is not a biblical teaching.
In John, Jesus says the Father judges no one has but has given all judgement to the Son (John 5:22-24). In Matthew 28: 18-20 Jesus says all authority on heaven and earth has been given to him, and says he will be with you until the end of the age, suggesting Jesus after Ascension will return to omniscience and omnipresence.
@MarkPatmos The father is the giver of the authority. Even in that statement, it is abundantly clear that the father is the greater one. The son is never equal to the father. Are you equal to your father who gave you birth?
I feel that if you try harder to disprove God's existence, you will find him. ❤
A lot rambling and senseless rethoric show them are talking are nil evidence. Talking for nothing. Iol