Wise choice and a good call. Having worked on; cars, motorcycles, trucks and a little on GA aircraft, I was sat here thinking "They're life expired, too many variables/things wrong with them, and after a lot of work they won't be new or have room to recondition them in the future". You're still smiling so all's well that ends well🤔😊✌️👍
I was thinking that as well. 22 years old and clearly wearing badly in some places, they were at the end of their working life, even if that was a bit premature due to lack of use.
Hi John, New cylinders is your best way to go. Expensive yes, but you'll get a full warranty on the entire unit should you have a problem. Overhauling is just throwing good money after bad. Safe flying and thank you for the videos! Merry Christmas!!
A good decision you won't regret! Definitely good luck on having the parts on the shelf. My TSIO-360 "overhaul" turned into 11 months and a factory reman from Alabama. It was pricey but the engine has been flawless.
Norvic inspected my magnetos earlier this year and one failed after two and a half hours. They then treated my very poorly. I hope you have more luck with them that I did.
Yup, parts are a pain. We have been waiting months to get our A-65 rebuilt, simple things like seals have been a nightmare, after one of the syndicate members nosed her over (he was fine just rather embarassed). We did get lucky with the crank though when a second inspection revealed it was cracked. The engineer had a used but known good one on the shelf, to replace the original which had to be scrapped.
It’s always a stressful time getting your cylinders checked… had to have 3 of mine reworked last year (leaking valves losing compression through the exhaust). Good luck!
Hi John. It would be interesting to understand how you finance the engine rebuild. I know you budget for this in your flying hours but given you’ve not had the aircraft that long how have you covered the cost? Do you offset the cost against the increased future value of your aircraft, assuming it’s value increases after this work.
I guess it boils down to how deep your pockets are and the hours you do, I think I would also want to, as time permitted, overhaul the old heads one by one otherwise more stock is lost to scrap. As a motor engineer I think a gudgeon pin is a piston, most interesting update.
My Arrow has been down for new Garmin G5’s, G275,s and G355 GPS/COM, for 4 months. I own nothing on it but I do have to pay insurance. I want my airplane back. I knew the bill was coming, was not ready for the plane to be gone so long.
Good, interesting stuff. Thanks, John. A question about terminology arises though; why are the 'piston pins' so called, when the term 'gudgeon pin' has been in use for many many decades in the automotive and static engine industries? What's so special about the aviation intustry?
WOW!! How fortuitous .... the guy that’s inspecting the cylinders and saying they are bad and you need new ones...just happens to have some on the shelf. Fortuitous indeed. 😇 In all seriousness I’m really surprised that the cylinders made it 22 years with that piston pin issue on one of the cylinders and the valve issues with the other. At this point even if he said those cylinders could be saved, I would still buy those new ones. Just for piece of mind
I've seen this scenario a few times and I think in the long run, seeing as the core is 22 years old, you may have been better advised to take the whole engine to Norvic and have it zero timed? The cylinders are a big part of the cost of an overhaul (Over £2000 a piece) and you get peace of mind the cam and crankshaft are not going to let go any time soon in to the bargain!
I thought the same. A zero timed engine adds to the value of the plane but major repairs just make you wonder about the parts that have not been replaced
I know how you feel…I’m just finishing a complete overhaul brand new cylinders etc etc for my Cessna 182… however still waiting on the final test in the chamber before we do a test flight….. and yes the bank balance is a little depleted…. But the end result the resale value has increased with a zero hour engine and prop…. I upgraded the prop to a 3 blade prop as well. Found that over the years the blades had been shaved (rock chips) and was under the mandatory width and thickness…. Ohhh well you can’t take it with you :0😢
There must be a bit of scrap value in there too... I can't believe the weird design to ensure the gudgeon pin stays in place. What's wrong with circlips? (a rhetorical question btw)
@@theflyingfool piston pin plugs don’t score the bore, they are soft aluminium vs a nitrided steel bore, the problem with them is if they get stuck in the piston ( usually if the engine is under used ) they get bacon sliced by a ride in the bore at the lower sweep of the oil control ring ( as a result of corrosion because of under use ). You can see the theme here ! An operator that I know with a big fleet of lycomings that do 700+ hours a year almost never fails to get to the overhaul time having done no engine maintenance apart from routine items.
But you never told us how many hours those cylinders had done ? You say they are 20 years old, has your aircraft previously had an overhauled engine ? I assume it has as the aircraft was built in 1977 and your log books would tell the full story. The decision to buy 6 new cylinders is absolutely right. You will be starting from a good base line, whereas with others they will all deteriorate at different times after being reconditioned. The break-in period will be critical for good future oil consumption and cylinder life. Looking forward to the next episode after they are fitted.
Does owning this plane make any sort of financial sense? It must be costing a fortune. By comparison my rotax 912 Eurostar is peanuts. Yes it only carries 2 people at 80-90 knots but mostly your passengers don't look that interested anyway, I'm sure you could forgo one!
Can you take four people + baggage to Spain non stop and cruise above the weather at FL 180 in your Eurostar ? I guess not……………you get what you pay for.
@@Robinbamv but how often do you cruise at FL180 to Spain non stop with 3 pax, and is the cost differential worth that occasional facility? Mostly flying is flying. But owning and flying one of these things is like setting light to £50 notes for the fun of it
@@gwynsea8162 it’s all down to what your mission is I personal need a farm strip capable long range touring aircraft that is IFR capable has four seats and can make Northern Spain non stop with two people or do the same trip with one stop and four people so I have a DR400-180. To me your aircraft would be like setting fire to money as it is incapable of my mission requirement so the money would be wasted. Before being critical of peoples aircraft you need to understand their mission requirement, I know that most of GA is centred around the £100 hamburger but some of us go a lot further.
@@gwynsea8162 I am not sure of his mission, it would seem he is quite new to aircraft ownership but he has done a few trips and no doubt would like to go further but I am mindful that what he shows the viewers has to be entertaining, not many on you would want to view a five hour sector to Spain.
No brainer getting new cylinders. For the piece of mind alone. Patching up old parts is false economy. You will enjoy flying without the stress. I'm sure the resale value will reflect this.
![Felix "Unfair" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Oswujxm2Ag0/mqdefault.jpg)
Wise choice and a good call. Having worked on; cars, motorcycles, trucks and a little on GA aircraft, I was sat here thinking "They're life expired, too many variables/things wrong with them, and after a lot of work they won't be new or have room to recondition them in the future". You're still smiling so all's well that ends well🤔😊✌️👍
I was thinking that as well. 22 years old and clearly wearing badly in some places, they were at the end of their working life, even if that was a bit premature due to lack of use.
Best of luck. Delighted you have your new cylinders . Happy Landings
Absolute no brainer. I know nothing about aero engines per se, but at the end of the day peace of mind is worth paying for: especially at 10,000 feet!
Hi John, New cylinders is your best way to go. Expensive yes, but you'll get a full warranty on the entire unit should you have a problem. Overhauling is just throwing good money after bad. Safe flying and thank you for the videos! Merry Christmas!!
It's a no brainer, the overhaul will likely cost more anyway.
@@TheFlyingReporter Roger that sir. What kind of cylinders did you get?
Continental cylinders Dale.
Flying behind a full set of new cylinders is a much better feeling when youve got your family with you nice one john Crack on
Thanks Barry.
A good decision you won't regret! Definitely good luck on having the parts on the shelf. My TSIO-360 "overhaul" turned into 11 months and a factory reman from Alabama. It was pricey but the engine has been flawless.
“I’m so sorry sir but these parts are too far gone…but if you look this way I’ll be able to sell you these shiny new cylinders over here” 😅
It was not like that at all Jonathan.
@@TheFlyingReporter I joke of course - I hope you’re back in the air soon!
Norvic inspected my magnetos earlier this year and one failed after two and a half hours.
They then treated my very poorly.
I hope you have more luck with them that I did.
Fascinating video! Many thanks.
Fascinating watching the cylinders behind examined, Jon. A very interesting video 👍👏👏
Yep good choice Jon, think i'd have done the same!!
Yup, parts are a pain. We have been waiting months to get our A-65 rebuilt, simple things like seals have been a nightmare, after one of the syndicate members nosed her over (he was fine just rather embarassed). We did get lucky with the crank though when a second inspection revealed it was cracked. The engineer had a used but known good one on the shelf, to replace the original which had to be scrapped.
And the cases were ok? A65 are particularly prone to damage on the mains as the studs are not through and nutted.
@@zopEnglandzip Oddly yes they seem to be fine. Thanks for the info though :)
It’s always a stressful time getting your cylinders checked… had to have 3 of mine reworked last year (leaking valves losing compression through the exhaust). Good luck!
Sounds a very similar story.
Hi John. It would be interesting to understand how you finance the engine rebuild. I know you budget for this in your flying hours but given you’ve not had the aircraft that long how have you covered the cost? Do you offset the cost against the increased future value of your aircraft, assuming it’s value increases after this work.
Basically, the aerial version of Wheelers Dealers (moreover very popular here in Italy, where it is known as Affari a Quattro Ruote) ...
I guess it boils down to how deep your pockets are and the hours you do, I think I would also want to, as time permitted, overhaul the old heads one by one otherwise more stock is lost to scrap.
As a motor engineer I think a gudgeon pin is a piston, most interesting update.
Very interesting
Costly but given the benefits warranty etc. Hopefully another 24 years out of the new ones
Happy landings! ✈️
Great video. I live in a similar damp climate and have decided to install an industrial dehumidifier in my hangar. Moisture is aircraft enemy #1.
And lack of use is #2. Skimping on Maintenance would probably be #3!
@@tlangdon12 Absolutely.
Happy days..... until the bill arrives !!
Well, yes.
My Arrow has been down for new Garmin G5’s, G275,s and G355 GPS/COM, for 4 months. I own nothing on it but I do have to pay insurance. I want my airplane back. I knew the bill was coming, was not ready for the plane to be gone so long.
Ouch - sounds expensive! But given the investigation the best way forward...
It sure is.
Good, interesting stuff. Thanks, John. A question about terminology arises though; why are the 'piston pins' so called, when the term 'gudgeon pin' has been in use for many many decades in the automotive and static engine industries? What's so special about the aviation intustry?
I think they can be called either Ray.
I wonder if it'll be a similar story for us... you got lucky with availability, there, though!
Would you care to tell how much they cost ?
WOW!! How fortuitous .... the guy that’s inspecting the cylinders and saying they are bad and you need new ones...just happens to have some on the shelf. Fortuitous indeed. 😇 In all seriousness I’m really surprised that the cylinders made it 22 years with that piston pin issue on one of the cylinders and the valve issues with the other. At this point even if he said those cylinders could be saved, I would still buy those new ones. Just for piece of mind
How much were those new cylinders?
I've seen this scenario a few times and I think in the long run, seeing as the core is 22 years old, you may have been better advised to take the whole engine to Norvic and have it zero timed? The cylinders are a big part of the cost of an overhaul (Over £2000 a piece) and you get peace of mind the cam and crankshaft are not going to let go any time soon in to the bargain!
I thought the same. A zero timed engine adds to the value of the plane but major repairs just make you wonder about the parts that have not been replaced
Can you maybe share cost of new cylinders? Great content 👌
What will you do with the old ones, are they able to be weighed in for scrap value to at least offset the costs ?
No decision made on that at the moment. Open to offers!
I know how you feel…I’m just finishing a complete overhaul brand new cylinders etc etc for my Cessna 182… however still waiting on the final test in the chamber before we do a test flight….. and yes the bank balance is a little depleted…. But the end result the resale value has increased with a zero hour engine and prop…. I upgraded the prop to a 3 blade prop as well. Found that over the years the blades had been shaved (rock chips) and was under the mandatory width and thickness…. Ohhh well you can’t take it with you :0😢
You found cylinders?? 😮
I know!!!
There must be a bit of scrap value in there too... I can't believe the weird design to ensure the gudgeon pin stays in place. What's wrong with circlips? (a rhetorical question btw)
Circlips are less reliable, most Lycoming & Continental engines use piston pin plugs.
@@Robinbamv yes, but a reliable circlip system could be made and it wouldn't score the bore like those plugs. Anyway though, it's only a thought...
@@theflyingfool piston pin plugs don’t score the bore, they are soft aluminium vs a nitrided steel bore, the problem with them is if they get stuck in the piston ( usually if the engine is under used ) they get bacon sliced by a ride in the bore at the lower sweep of the oil control ring ( as a result of corrosion because of under use ). You can see the theme here ! An operator that I know with a big fleet of lycomings that do 700+ hours a year almost never fails to get to the overhaul time having done no engine maintenance apart from routine items.
@@Robinbamv thanks Robin, that makes sense.
22 years is good time , so they have lasted . New cylinders you get another 22 years. You be flying until 2044 😅😅
But you never told us how many hours those cylinders had done ? You say they are 20 years old, has your aircraft previously had an overhauled engine ? I assume it has as the aircraft was built in 1977 and your log books would tell the full story. The decision to buy 6 new cylinders is absolutely right. You will be starting from a good base line, whereas with others they will all deteriorate at different times after being reconditioned. The break-in period will be critical for good future oil consumption and cylinder life. Looking forward to the next episode after they are fitted.
The engine hours were just under 1000 prior to the strip-down.
Nice piece. You’re getting more natural and less ‘Local News’, as time goes by.
Is that a euphemism?
It's not incorrect to call it a gudgeon pin
Does owning this plane make any sort of financial sense? It must be costing a fortune. By comparison my rotax 912 Eurostar is peanuts. Yes it only carries 2 people at 80-90 knots but mostly your passengers don't look that interested anyway, I'm sure you could forgo one!
Can you take four people + baggage to Spain non stop and cruise above the weather at FL 180 in your Eurostar ? I guess not……………you get what you pay for.
@@Robinbamv but how often do you cruise at FL180 to Spain non stop with 3 pax, and is the cost differential worth that occasional facility? Mostly flying is flying. But owning and flying one of these things is like setting light to £50 notes for the fun of it
@@gwynsea8162 it’s all down to what your mission is I personal need a farm strip capable long range touring aircraft that is IFR capable has four seats and can make Northern Spain non stop with two people or do the same trip with one stop and four people so I have a DR400-180. To me your aircraft would be like setting fire to money as it is incapable of my mission requirement so the money would be wasted. Before being critical of peoples aircraft you need to understand their mission requirement, I know that most of GA is centred around the £100 hamburger but some of us go a lot further.
@@Robinbamv Indeed, I agree, but what is Jon's mission? Given what you've seen to date?
@@gwynsea8162 I am not sure of his mission, it would seem he is quite new to aircraft ownership but he has done a few trips and no doubt would like to go further but I am mindful that what he shows the viewers has to be entertaining, not many on you would want to view a five hour sector to Spain.
No brainer getting new cylinders. For the piece of mind alone. Patching up old parts is false economy. You will enjoy flying without the stress. I'm sure the resale value will reflect this.
a lot to be said for renting aircraft
££££££
Yes please, if you're offering Mike.