Be sure to check out my recommended product page on my website where I have brief reviews on things I use⬇ www.outdoors55.com/shop This is a work in progress and is updated frequently🙂 IMPORTANT⬇ This video is a brief summary of the mystery steel file world! I tested over 30 files and did almost 300 hardness tests. Testing hardness at the surface, as well as at various depths beneath the surface, all the way to the middle of each file. I also tested multiple heat treat coupons for each file, testing both water and oil quenching. This video is a good summary and overview of my findings. Keep in mind your results may differ as file manufacturers may adjust their steel and heat treatments over time. If you think I missed something (im sure I did) leave your thoughts below. The idea here is to learn as we go, and any info is good info👍 I left a link to a through hardened file in the description (I tested 3 of these with great results). Thanks for watching!
just for the record, probably should have mentioned, when hardened steel breaks, it also has a tendency to send shards directly toward your eyeballs., also... why is that?
I did mention that, and included a link to a video showing how dangerous breaking hardened steel is. The link is up on the right corner of the screen when I mentioned it.🙂
Very beautiful presentation. I guess i was lucky (and i used an already broken file with a nice fine structure break) for my first wood carving knife. Still my favourite tool for carving spoons after a few years. I guess it's time to make a proper sheath for it😉. I'm slowly getting into blacksmithing and i hope to make my own spoon knife. The first one i made was too thin and had a crack so it broke 😒. But i made it a couple years back in a kitchen, during winter time, heating up that file in our central heating coal stove😊. And that was fun! If my mom lived, she would probably chase me with a broom from that kichen. Dad was pretty ok with it and smiled a little. He had blacksmithing lessons in his school time.
Remember what he said folks. Choosing poorly could result in you aging a thousand years and less than 10 seconds. And being blown away to nothing more than dust.
This is the only makers channel in my subscriptions where I feel 100% comfortable hitting thumbs-up before I watch a new video, and never yet had to un-click it!
Great video. Back in the mid 50's dad made my first fixed blade knife out of a file what kind what brand name I have no idea , I did all the roughing grinding under dads eye all I can remeber is him telling me don't let it get hot . It has a scandi edge all these years later it is my favorite knife especially for skinning it has a 4-1/2 inch blade 4 inch stacked leather handle which by the way other than being bite darker is just like new All my leather gets oiled every new year whether it needs it or not. Also keep in mind I've never tried to bend or shot it or hit it with a hammer . it just cuts every time I ask it to skinning or wood for kindling never batoned with it just cut things . Happy Trails Uppps forgot I HAD TO MAKE A NEW SHEATH FOR IT ABOUT 10 YEARS AGO THE ONE I MADE FOR IT BACK WHEN i WAS A KID OUT OF ONE OF GRANDPA'S OLD BOOTS FINALLY WORE OUT AT THE BELT LOOP . hAPPY TRAILS KEEP ON MAKING THOSE SMART VIDEO'S.
All i can add to this is...if you build it, you use it for what its Made:-) And if you writte down the dimensions or make a trace picture if it...then you can rebuild it...even if you lose it Greatz from Germany and have a nice Day opo
Your videos have helped me tremendously because your 'cut to the chase', no bullshit style of delivery is well researched and always seems to give me the info I needed. Keep it up. Cheers Rick Widomaker Queensland Australia.
Excellent and informative video. I have had good luck with the farrier's rasps I get from my farrier, but he buys the more expensive ones (>$30 each). I always test them before use though, by cutting off the tang, heating, quenching in water, put in a vise and whack it with a hammer. They snap and demonstrate good grain structure. I am not giving the brand, because that brand also makes case-hardened rasps, so it is more important to test them, which I do with every file except duplicates from the same lot (lot number given on the rasp). With that said, I also ALWAYS do a full heat treatment on the finished product (with an anneal before working) using a fast quenchant (50). I would not try to simply grind them and use original heat treatment. Caveat: I do not have an HRC testing device. I go by file skating and Japanese testing files as well as experience showing good edge retention with use.
All sage advice! My father, a violin maker, made most of his tools including specialty knives and planes. His experience agrees 100% with everything you said here. I'm glad others still know and share this knowledge!
Hey now, THAT is a video I want to watch. Thank god you showed up now dude. I have to clean out the basement and couldn’t find anything I wanted to put on while doing it. Love the wisdom dispensed on this channel
i do this as well, usually all day. although it seems like youtube knows the second I walk away from my phone and climb a ladder, crawl under something, or am otherwise preoccupied, and I am then subjected to whatever scam ads youtube is running that day.
Great video - very clear (to me at least). Yes, those relatively inexpensive rasps are "compositionally" hard. they have a bunch of carbide or whatnot in the steel mix, hence the grain. They are reasonably wear resistant, but not very tough. I believe they are also impressed with the their teeth while in the red hot condition, and then quenched fast. The expensive hand made woodworking rasps are through hardened, because the teeth are cut cold, then the entire rasp is hardened. That said, who wants to make a $150 file into a knife? There are so many worn out steel cutting files available. I was given a dozen 12" lathe cut files 30 years ago, and I still have a few of them lying around for future projects. I don't typically make knives, but I do make other odd cutting tools for weird applications, and the repurposed old files are a pretty good choice for something I may only use once or twice. Thanks for your hard work!
Exactly! Thats the tough part about using files. The manufacturing method greatly influences steel type and whether it's useful as a knife. Thanks for the input!
I think I’ll limit myself to power hacksaw blades, I’ve seen them used in factory packing rooms, both on cardboard and flesh, they work well for both and the packing tape handles are easy to make !
Very good video, just remember if your rockwell testing on case hardened material your likely to push right through the hardened layer. Especially on the the c scale. The thinner the layer the less weight you use to test and change the scale to b or a. There are many ways of testing treated steel and its best to read up on what is the right one. I had many years of treating different types of steel and the accompanying testing involved....its an art in itself.
Good info! I didnt know there were such differences between files. And I am the type of person who would be tempted to make a knife out of an old file found at a yard sale. You likely saved me, and maybe others, from a disappointing learning experience. Thank you, Sir.
New Nickelson not even in the running. Old- was great stuff. Since they outsourced to foreign soils they got really sorry. Ran a wooden boat shop for a dozen years and bought a lot of files, sharpening scissors (Fiskars) made of really good steel, and would go through a file a week. Then they farmed out and the files would not cut- just skidded across the metal. Went to belt grinder, absolutely had to. Where do you source others? I like in the boondocks, so any help would be appreciated
@@wrstew1272 yeah, I've had decent luck with them but they don't last anywhere near as long. About 10 years ago I finally wore out an old Nicholson black diamond file that belonged to my grandfather, and I have no clue how long he had it. I have yet to spring for them but have heard the German made Pferd files are the best you can get these days.
I left a link in the description to the exact model number I tested. It was a new nicholson that was completely through hardened to 68hrc. Im not sure where these myths of new stuff not being any good comes from. Theres no file steel out there that will hardens higher than 68. Ive had great results with the new nicholsons.
@@OUTDOORS55 it's not really a myth necessarily. I've had decent luck with the current ones that are made in Mexico, but they were made in Brazil before this and a lot of people were very unhappy with the steel quality/ longevity. I've been happy enough with the current Nicholson files, but maybe the steel is different because they do not last as long as the American made Nicholson files would. I've used both and they just don't.
I have a knife my friends dad made out of a file about 50 years ago. In other words, an OLD file. My buddy skinned out an elk in Idaho without re sharpening.(his story) But it does sharpen up nice and holds its edge great.
Yay! A new video. Always look forward to your content my friend. Entertaining,educational, and CLEAN! I so appreciate your humor and personality and love for helping us simpletons understand the basics of knife making without the need to use vile language in every sentence. I know Ive mentioned this before, but you really make understanding all the basics of this very easy. There are not too many channels that actually teach how to do all this stuff. One day I would love to get the stuff to mess around with making knives. Unfortunately my health isn't great and I live in an apartment. But my parents have a garage I could use if I ever feel well enough to put it into practice. God bless you friend. Cant wait for the next video.
Great info as usual. I have made a couole of knives from Files and so far they have performed quite well, so while I am hoping that they continue to perform, if they don't I will have more info to help understand what may have been the reason.
Always saw file knives (& saw blade knives too). Gotta confess I wasn't aware of these facts. Always picking up some knowledge on your videos. Appreciate the thoroughness of your testing & glad to see another post from you !
I've been making file knives for the last few years and learned most of the things you mention the hard way. I never touched rasps, I knew they would be no good for a knife, for the most part. I did buy a large file to make a medium bowie and got my heart broken when I realized it was case hardened... much too late into the build. I have learned to tell the difference in hardness in how the grinder takes material off, softer comes off like crazy, it feels weird in comparison to a nice tempered file. I do not re-heat treat my knives, I do not have the facilities, I temper the file and then carefully grind down from there, cooling in water regularly. This takes time, but has the benefit of leaving me with a knife of the proper hardness without overmuch worry. I do the ghetto method of annealing for pins in the handle, works like a charm but I wrap the blade with wet towels and monitor the process very carefully, watching the color of the steel to tell me when it's done. (Usually dark blue.) I really appreciate the work you put into this and wish I had had access to it years ago, its good info! File knives are great when made right and can give you a nice, usable blade as good as many manufactured ones. (If not better.)
Thanks for all this research, and a very approachable video. While I sometimes enjoy making a knife out of mystery steel, just for fun, I stick to known steel for the knives I sell as knives. HT is always a mystery with mystery steel, of course.
So i have a badass knife that i made out of a marketplace rasp. I forraged the wallnut handle from a log that i milled with a homemade chainsaw sawmill. Custom made a big chonk leather sheath. The knife is just cool af. Likely not super steel since it's a horseshoe rasp with big teefs, but it cuts weeds around the yard and holds and edge sharp enough to open packages from amazon. I dig it and the special lady friends digs it. Appreciate your studies and info. Now i know.
Good stuff as always! One of my knife maker friends said they can make any steel hard( case hardening) so I should look for the older American made files. Most new files today suck. Auctions are usually your best bet for finding old files for cheap!
Nice job with useful information that can be used by most people in their shops. A set of calibrated files may be an affordable alternative to a hardness tester.
I've wasted a lot of time...a lot trying to make file knives. I found plenty of case hardened. Nicholson files have always been good to me. Have you ever tried the hardness of RR spikes? More so the ones with HC on em. I know they're not ideal to be making blades and that they're more of a novelty item but ive always been curious as to how hard they can get using ice water, cold oil, parks or canola. Great video, thank you for taking the time to teach us a bit about using files, cheers 🍻
I do a rudementary heat treatment test of a small chunk from every file or other mystery steel I intend to make a knife from. Literally nothing except for new steel with a known spec is standardized enough that you don't have to test it, and even that should be tested occasionally.
incredibly useful information! i recently got into knife making through stock removal and offered to make one for a friend if they provide the file. ill need to revisit this video when the time comes. thanks very much for this. you have a new frequent follow for sure.
I love your videos. The way you explain procedure and the reason behind them really makes it understandable to an untrained simp like myself. Teaching is an art, and you are a master of it. Thank you. This video just saved me some labor and misery, as I just picked up several ferrier rasps that I was going to make knives out of lol
Too funny! I received a farriers rasp in the mail yesterday. Thanks for the great content. If it's a long winter, I may try and make myself something but this makes me rethink making a file knife as a gift. Thank you!
Amazing video i needed this info. I got about 30+ files i got off ebay for like £20 gonna start some amature knife making in the future. Been using 80crv2 flat bar and an angle grinder for practice i don't have a forge yet.
£20+ shipping and mostly worn out useless files but there were some really good ones too that i use.. not all of them were BIG files but still a good deal.
What I have always done is heat up the file tang till non magnetic and quench it, if the tang snaps or shatters from a strong hammer blow I know that it can be hardened / tempered. This test has worked for me, but I cannot say how reliable it is.
Lots of good information here. I honestly don't understand the compulsion to use mystery steel to make knives. The appeal of free seems to be too strong for some people to resist. STEEL IS CHEAP! 1075-1080 steel is very forgiving. It's easy to heat treat and A 60" .187x 1.25" bar can be had for under $25. That's enough steel to make 5 large knives or 7-8 medium knives. You can quench it in vegetable oil from the grocery store.
Great info thank you! I've been trying to work up the courage to make a custom carving gouge from an old file, I think I'll save my limited resources on re-purposing an old truck leaf spring instead 👍
Thank you soo much for this video! I just starting to get started making knives for food. Last thing I want is some strange toxic metal to cut up my food with and get sick!
If it teaches you a lesson, it's not useless. Perhaps it will not function as you want it to, but that's not the same thing as useless. The first knife I ever made was from a worn out file that I found in a junk pile. As a knife it kinda sucked, but I learned things about the process that I still use to this day.
This is such a great resource video. Thank you for making this. Before this I would've thought making a knife from a rasp would be fine (and look cool), but it totally makes sense that a manufacturer wouldn't waste money on steel and hardening for a tool that going to shape wood or horses' hooves. Great video.
Very interessting, thanks. I personally never heard that you should use rasps as base material for a knife, only files. During C crises I made paper-sheets for all and wood handles for some on my files and rasps (about 25 large ones, 10 medium ones and 20 very small ones) to preserve them longer. handling these I can somewhat tell its different materials in them, shine, rust, sound and handeling on material etc. And especially newer rasps seems to be poor "mystery metal" as they go dull quickly (hardly sharp to begin with). I do save the dull ones in case I would somehow sometime get access to a forge. But this video of yours have made believe I shall not save the rasps., Thanks again.
Love the video. I made this one knife from a file and experienced kind of the same thing but i would recommend you try a water quench on the softer files that didnt want to harden much. Mine quenched kind of soft into used motor oil and extremely hard into water (about 63 HRC and cut glass without damage). Basically comes down to a few points - 1. If its regular carbon steel, then it can be heat treated properly ( there are many ways to tell if it is carbon) 2. If its some sort of a blend, it will require special heat treating that you might have to discover by trial and error 3. If its mild steel somehow then you re better off throwing it away rather than trying to infuse it with carbon
I did try a water quench and parks 50 on all samples. There was a SMALL difference between water and parks 50 (maybe half a point hrc) but not enough to change the results. 🙂
Solid information, per usual. Much obliged. Hey, if it’s not too much trouble, could you do similar tests for 3 or 4 manufacture’s of drifts, punches, chisels, and gouges? And if you could have that up by Wednesday I’d really appreciate it. [I’m kidding, I appreciate what you do, when you’re able to do it. I’m not looking to bury you in tedious repetition in the hopes it means I never have to encounter variability in my work. I learn from what you post, but if I encounter something you haven’t talked about yet - then it’s on me to find the solution. Keep being awesome. Cheers!
I'm so glad I caught this...I've had many knife makers tell me to go use Ferriers files for knives. I'm in Denver now, and I hear there are several metal shops that can get me good steels, I just need to find them. I'm open to suggestions if anyone in the area knows!
I’ve made probably 100’s of file knives, used to make 1700s knives and many originals were made out of files. I only used vintage old American files,that right there will take care of most of your problems Don’t use a rasp because of the teeth I forged all my blades and the rasps teeth can cause problems When annealing the blade, heat up a flat bar, put it in a tray of vermiculite or wood ash then lay the red blade on it and bury them in the vermiculite I usually differentially tempered my blades. Easiest way is to paint the back with stove clay then heat it and quench it in hot Oil.
I use only Grover Vallorbe from Switzerland and Pferd from Germany for filing, files. I did make a dagger out of a USA mfg. Nicholson file from the 1960s. Nice presentation. Modern Nicholson files are made in either Mexico or Brazil and come warped right from the blister pack. Kobalt a brand sold by Lowes have soft steel bodies and partially cut teeth.
With Nicholson, i also had the same experience. It curls after we soften it, i straightened it with a hammer. Can we continue with this material? Can we have good results? Thanks
This becomes even more of a pain in the ass when the files you are using are 6+ decades old and many of the manufacturers have gone the way of the dodo. Though, in my experience, most of them have been through hardened. Yet another reason I’m glad my grandfather passed on to me a lifetime of experience and knowledge. He first explained grain structure to me when I was still in middle school.
Suggestions for what to do with a bunch of rusty triangular files I bought at auction for no good reason? So far, I’ve been using them to slowly create more rust.
Thanks for this info- how about mower blades? Are they gold, or are they no good, since they are designed to be soft enough to survive hitting rocks? I have plenty of old mower blades sitting around
I've always been told to use old, American made files...I have a few of those. I have 1 particular beauty with great checkered type pattern, but it still new, since it seems to have been barely used. I have Nicholsons, Simmons, Delta, and a Louisville Bluegrass. I don't wanna screw them up, so im planning carefully before knife making
Think for the info. the rasps are for wood or non metal work and don`t need to be harden. Looks like all the ones i have are now going to the scrap ben.👍🤟
Thank you for the information you provided. It was very useful, but I have a question about the metal automotive spring bar that is used in making knives.
Maybe, maybe not though...Just one file added to the mix that didn't conform to the standards throws the whole thong off. If I had tested a rasp that hardened sufficiently id have to add another category or add a caveat. Its the unknown mystery steel conundrum.
Usually I spark test the file, but also heat and quench in wather something like 1.5cm of the end of the tang. If it's hardenable, it will snap, if not it will bend. Like this you don't loose knife material, just the anyway too thin end of the tang
![I.N "HALLUCINATION" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n5B5q1Hwt_U/mqdefault.jpg)
Be sure to check out my recommended product page on my website where I have brief reviews on things I use⬇
www.outdoors55.com/shop
This is a work in progress and is updated frequently🙂
IMPORTANT⬇
This video is a brief summary of the mystery steel file world! I tested over 30 files and did almost 300 hardness tests. Testing hardness at the surface, as well as at various depths beneath the surface, all the way to the middle of each file. I also tested multiple heat treat coupons for each file, testing both water and oil quenching. This video is a good summary and overview of my findings. Keep in mind your results may differ as file manufacturers may adjust their steel and heat treatments over time. If you think I missed something (im sure I did) leave your thoughts below. The idea here is to learn as we go, and any info is good info👍 I left a link to a through hardened file in the description (I tested 3 of these with great results). Thanks for watching!
just for the record, probably should have mentioned, when hardened steel breaks, it also has a tendency to send shards directly toward your eyeballs., also... why is that?
I did mention that, and included a link to a video showing how dangerous breaking hardened steel is. The link is up on the right corner of the screen when I mentioned it.🙂
@@OUTDOORS55 im sorry, you did, my bad.
Very beautiful presentation. I guess i was lucky (and i used an already broken file with a nice fine structure break) for my first wood carving knife. Still my favourite tool for carving spoons after a few years. I guess it's time to make a proper sheath for it😉.
I'm slowly getting into blacksmithing and i hope to make my own spoon knife. The first one i made was too thin and had a crack so it broke 😒. But i made it a couple years back in a kitchen, during winter time, heating up that file in our central heating coal stove😊. And that was fun! If my mom lived, she would probably chase me with a broom from that kichen. Dad was pretty ok with it and smiled a little. He had blacksmithing lessons in his school time.
I found a file that says REX U.S.A. It's old., with a kings crown logo. KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT IT ? I can't find any info on Google. Thank you
I love your dedication to providing accurate, measurable results. That's a lot of effort and suffering you're saving a broke beginner from.
Remember what he said folks. Choosing poorly could result in you aging a thousand years and less than 10 seconds. And being blown away to nothing more than dust.
Someone got the reference 😂👍👍👍👏👏
You have chosen wisely.
“He chose…. Poorly…
I’ve definitely noticed that quite a lot recently…
I heard the theme music in my head when he said that on the video...😂
Thanks god this man made a new video. Worked 6 days 9hours each day this week and I need this to chillout now
This is the only makers channel in my subscriptions where I feel 100% comfortable hitting thumbs-up before I watch a new video, and never yet had to un-click it!
Thanks! Really appreciate it!
As a guy who has forged thousands of knives I sure wish I had a hardness tester that said I have my favorite steels to forge knives and tools from
Great video. Back in the mid 50's dad made my first fixed blade knife out of a file what kind what brand name I have no idea , I did all the roughing grinding under dads eye all I can remeber is him telling me don't let it get hot . It has a scandi edge all these years later it is my favorite knife especially for skinning it has a 4-1/2 inch blade 4 inch stacked leather handle which by the way other than being bite darker is just like new All my leather gets oiled every new year whether it needs it or not. Also keep in mind I've never tried to bend or shot it or hit it with a hammer . it just cuts every time I ask it to skinning or wood for kindling never batoned with it just cut things . Happy Trails Uppps forgot I HAD TO MAKE A NEW SHEATH FOR IT ABOUT 10 YEARS AGO THE ONE I MADE FOR IT BACK WHEN i WAS A KID OUT OF ONE OF GRANDPA'S OLD BOOTS FINALLY WORE OUT AT THE BELT LOOP . hAPPY TRAILS KEEP ON MAKING THOSE SMART VIDEO'S.
All i can add to this is...if you build it, you use it for what its Made:-)
And if you writte down the dimensions or make a trace picture if it...then you can rebuild it...even if you lose it
Greatz from Germany
and have a nice Day
opo
That’s cool you still have it and actually use it.
Your videos have helped me tremendously because your 'cut to the chase', no bullshit style of delivery is well researched and always seems to give me the info I needed.
Keep it up.
Cheers
Rick
Widomaker
Queensland
Australia.
Excellent and informative video. I have had good luck with the farrier's rasps I get from my farrier, but he buys the more expensive ones (>$30 each). I always test them before use though, by cutting off the tang, heating, quenching in water, put in a vise and whack it with a hammer. They snap and demonstrate good grain structure.
I am not giving the brand, because that brand also makes case-hardened rasps, so it is more important to test them, which I do with every file except duplicates from the same lot (lot number given on the rasp).
With that said, I also ALWAYS do a full heat treatment on the finished product (with an anneal before working) using a fast quenchant (50). I would not try to simply grind them and use original heat treatment.
Caveat: I do not have an HRC testing device. I go by file skating and Japanese testing files as well as experience showing good edge retention with use.
All sage advice! My father, a violin maker, made most of his tools including specialty knives and planes. His experience agrees 100% with everything you said here. I'm glad others still know and share this knowledge!
WOW! That was a lot of research and experimentation. Amazing work, thanks so much!
Hey now, THAT is a video I want to watch. Thank god you showed up now dude. I have to clean out the basement and couldn’t find anything I wanted to put on while doing it. Love the wisdom dispensed on this channel
i do this as well, usually all day. although it seems like youtube knows the second I walk away from my phone and climb a ladder, crawl under something, or am otherwise preoccupied, and I am then subjected to whatever scam ads youtube is running that day.
Bless you for NOT saying "heat up to nom magnetic, then quench & snap".
Great video - very clear (to me at least). Yes, those relatively inexpensive rasps are "compositionally" hard. they have a bunch of carbide or whatnot in the steel mix, hence the grain. They are reasonably wear resistant, but not very tough. I believe they are also impressed with the their teeth while in the red hot condition, and then quenched fast. The expensive hand made woodworking rasps are through hardened, because the teeth are cut cold, then the entire rasp is hardened. That said, who wants to make a $150 file into a knife? There are so many worn out steel cutting files available. I was given a dozen 12" lathe cut files 30 years ago, and I still have a few of them lying around for future projects. I don't typically make knives, but I do make other odd cutting tools for weird applications, and the repurposed old files are a pretty good choice for something I may only use once or twice.
Thanks for your hard work!
Exactly! Thats the tough part about using files. The manufacturing method greatly influences steel type and whether it's useful as a knife. Thanks for the input!
I think I’ll limit myself to power hacksaw blades, I’ve seen them used in factory packing rooms, both on cardboard and flesh, they work well for both and the packing tape handles are easy to make !
Thank you for taking the time to make this. It’s teaching and saving each of us a lot of time
Very good video, just remember if your rockwell testing on case hardened material your likely to push right through the hardened layer. Especially on the the c scale. The thinner the layer the less weight you use to test and change the scale to b or a. There are many ways of testing treated steel and its best to read up on what is the right one. I had many years of treating different types of steel and the accompanying testing involved....its an art in itself.
Good info! I didnt know there were such differences between files. And I am the type of person who would be tempted to make a knife out of an old file found at a yard sale. You likely saved me, and maybe others, from a disappointing learning experience. Thank you, Sir.
If you're in the US just go by brand.
An American made Nicholson, Simonds, or Heller Bros metal file is going to be a safe bet.
New Nickelson not even in the running. Old- was great stuff. Since they outsourced to foreign soils they got really sorry. Ran a wooden boat shop for a dozen years and bought a lot of files, sharpening scissors (Fiskars) made of really good steel, and would go through a file a week. Then they farmed out and the files would not cut- just skidded across the metal. Went to belt grinder, absolutely had to. Where do you source others? I like in the boondocks, so any help would be appreciated
@@wrstew1272 yeah, I've had decent luck with them but they don't last anywhere near as long.
About 10 years ago I finally wore out an old Nicholson black diamond file that belonged to my grandfather, and I have no clue how long he had it.
I have yet to spring for them but have heard the German made Pferd files are the best you can get these days.
I left a link in the description to the exact model number I tested. It was a new nicholson that was completely through hardened to 68hrc. Im not sure where these myths of new stuff not being any good comes from. Theres no file steel out there that will hardens higher than 68. Ive had great results with the new nicholsons.
@@OUTDOORS55 it's not really a myth necessarily.
I've had decent luck with the current ones that are made in Mexico, but they were made in Brazil before this and a lot of people were very unhappy with the steel quality/ longevity.
I've been happy enough with the current Nicholson files, but maybe the steel is different because they do not last as long as the American made Nicholson files would.
I've used both and they just don't.
I have a knife my friends dad made out of a file about 50 years ago. In other words, an OLD file. My buddy skinned out an elk in Idaho without re sharpening.(his story) But it does sharpen up nice and holds its edge great.
Ive been watching your channel for 3 years and I love the information garnered from your experience. Thank you and keep it coming!
This was a VERY useful video for me because I am planning to use an old file to make my first knife, Thanks man!
Glad it helps!
Yay! A new video. Always look forward to your content my friend. Entertaining,educational, and CLEAN! I so appreciate your humor and personality and love for helping us simpletons understand the basics of knife making without the need to use vile language in every sentence. I know Ive mentioned this before, but you really make understanding all the basics of this very easy. There are not too many channels that actually teach how to do all this stuff. One day I would love to get the stuff to mess around with making knives. Unfortunately my health isn't great and I live in an apartment. But my parents have a garage I could use if I ever feel well enough to put it into practice.
God bless you friend. Cant wait for the next video.
Yup 😊👍
the vast majority of youtubers could learn from this account. extremely well done!
Great info as usual. I have made a couole of knives from Files and so far they have performed quite well, so while I am hoping that they continue to perform, if they don't I will have more info to help understand what may have been the reason.
Man you are the best. Please never leave, you're a great teacher. I was just talking about this topic the other day ! Thank you for the dedication!
@xAppOUTDOORS55 Really?! What did I win?! 🤓
@xAppOUTDOORS55 is it knives
@xAppOUTDOORS55 is it grinders?
@xAppOUTDOORS55 is it money's
@xAppOUTDOORS55 is it poo poo in a bag?
Always saw file knives (& saw blade knives too). Gotta confess I wasn't aware of these facts. Always picking up some knowledge on your videos. Appreciate the thoroughness of your testing & glad to see another post from you !
I've been making file knives for the last few years and learned most of the things you mention the hard way. I never touched rasps, I knew they would be no good for a knife, for the most part. I did buy a large file to make a medium bowie and got my heart broken when I realized it was case hardened... much too late into the build. I have learned to tell the difference in hardness in how the grinder takes material off, softer comes off like crazy, it feels weird in comparison to a nice tempered file. I do not re-heat treat my knives, I do not have the facilities, I temper the file and then carefully grind down from there, cooling in water regularly. This takes time, but has the benefit of leaving me with a knife of the proper hardness without overmuch worry. I do the ghetto method of annealing for pins in the handle, works like a charm but I wrap the blade with wet towels and monitor the process very carefully, watching the color of the steel to tell me when it's done. (Usually dark blue.) I really appreciate the work you put into this and wish I had had access to it years ago, its good info! File knives are great when made right and can give you a nice, usable blade as good as many manufactured ones. (If not better.)
Why would a rasp be no good?
Use masonry bits for hardened steel! I like to put negative rake on it, works really well!
thank you for this nice description - it is all very clear IN HINDSIGHT, and your "check this FIRST" suggestions are great
Thanks for all this research, and a very approachable video. While I sometimes enjoy making a knife out of mystery steel, just for fun, I stick to known steel for the knives I sell as knives. HT is always a mystery with mystery steel, of course.
So i have a badass knife that i made out of a marketplace rasp. I forraged the wallnut handle from a log that i milled with a homemade chainsaw sawmill.
Custom made a big chonk leather sheath. The knife is just cool af. Likely not super steel since it's a horseshoe rasp with big teefs, but it cuts weeds around the yard and holds and edge sharp enough to open packages from amazon. I dig it and the special lady friends digs it.
Appreciate your studies and info. Now i know.
Good stuff as always! One of my knife maker friends said they can make any steel hard( case hardening) so I should look for the older American made files. Most new files today suck. Auctions are usually your best bet for finding old files for cheap!
Nice job with useful information that can be used by most people in their shops. A set of calibrated files may be an affordable alternative to a hardness tester.
I've wasted a lot of time...a lot trying to make file knives. I found plenty of case hardened. Nicholson files have always been good to me. Have you ever tried the hardness of RR spikes? More so the ones with HC on em. I know they're not ideal to be making blades and that they're more of a novelty item but ive always been curious as to how hard they can get using ice water, cold oil, parks or canola. Great video, thank you for taking the time to teach us a bit about using files, cheers 🍻
I do a rudementary heat treatment test of a small chunk from every file or other mystery steel I intend to make a knife from. Literally nothing except for new steel with a known spec is standardized enough that you don't have to test it, and even that should be tested occasionally.
Years ago after a few file knives, I found that starting with a piece of O1 flat bar was a better choice.
👍👍
incredibly useful information!
i recently got into knife making through stock removal and offered to make one for a friend if they provide the file. ill need to revisit this video when the time comes.
thanks very much for this. you have a new frequent follow for sure.
I’m so glad that you’re back making videos. I love your content. Please keep on doing it. God bless you 🙏🏼😁👍🏼
I love your videos. The way you explain procedure and the reason behind them really makes it understandable to an untrained simp like myself. Teaching is an art, and you are a master of it. Thank you. This video just saved me some labor and misery, as I just picked up several ferrier rasps that I was going to make knives out of lol
Mine is fine. Pretty much a beast, hammered it through plywood cut out large squares, still holding strong.
Alex, you are my hero! Just another valuable video!
Much thanks from Germany!💚🤘
Very impressed with your information I haven’t heard/seen elsewhere. No nonsense delivery too. Well done my friend!
Too funny! I received a farriers rasp in the mail yesterday. Thanks for the great content. If it's a long winter, I may try and make myself something but this makes me rethink making a file knife as a gift. Thank you!
Few minutes into the video I figured the content in the video couldn't have been easily made even for him. The unknown steel world!
Awesome video!!!! Glad you took the time to present your findings
Thanks, that was helpful. It takes me many times hearing the same information, before it sinks in.
The way you have made this video was excellent and very informative and gives complete answers regarding this topic excellent work
Thanks for the video, I did t realize the difference in files. This is something that I have considered doing and no one has ever mentioned this.
Amazing video i needed this info. I got about 30+ files i got off ebay for like £20 gonna start some amature knife making in the future. Been using 80crv2 flat bar and an angle grinder for practice i don't have a forge yet.
30 for 20!?
You can pick a bargain. 😀
£20+ shipping and mostly worn out useless files but there were some really good ones too that i use.. not all of them were BIG files but still a good deal.
We use T12. Cheap and perfect for files although it’s not the Chinese version but is identical mineral content wise.
@xAppOUTDOORS55 👈 Bot Alert
Great presentation. Lots of good information.
I use a lot of recycled steel. If it snaps it's good test. Look at Saw Blades and Allsorts.
What I have always done is heat up the file tang till non magnetic and quench it, if the tang snaps or shatters from a strong hammer blow I know that it can be hardened / tempered.
This test has worked for me, but I cannot say how reliable it is.
Λιγοι ειναι αναλυτικοι και καλοι σαν εσενα. Συγχαρητηρια . Διαφωτιστικος,
Lots of good information here.
I honestly don't understand the compulsion to use mystery steel to make knives. The appeal of free seems to be too strong for some people to resist.
STEEL IS CHEAP! 1075-1080 steel is very forgiving. It's easy to heat treat and A 60" .187x 1.25" bar can be had for under $25. That's enough steel to make 5 large knives or 7-8 medium knives. You can quench it in vegetable oil from the grocery store.
Actually managed to somehow make something resembling a knife :). Thanks for all your great videos.
Yep just keep them coming please…. The videos I mean, informative and straight to the point while still humorous.
I believe rasps are made from tool steels different from files. Would require a more precise heat treat. I know some vintage rasps were D2.
Great info thank you! I've been trying to work up the courage to make a custom carving gouge from an old file, I think I'll save my limited resources on re-purposing an old truck leaf spring instead 👍
Thank you soo much for this video! I just starting to get started making knives for food. Last thing I want is some strange toxic metal to cut up my food with and get sick!
If it teaches you a lesson, it's not useless. Perhaps it will not function as you want it to, but that's not the same thing as useless. The first knife I ever made was from a worn out file that I found in a junk pile. As a knife it kinda sucked, but I learned things about the process that I still use to this day.
This is such a great resource video. Thank you for making this. Before this I would've thought making a knife from a rasp would be fine (and look cool), but it totally makes sense that a manufacturer wouldn't waste money on steel and hardening for a tool that going to shape wood or horses' hooves. Great video.
Really good stuff, Alex! Keep it coming.
Very interessting, thanks. I personally never heard that you should use rasps as base material for a knife, only files. During C crises I made paper-sheets for all and wood handles for some on my files and rasps (about 25 large ones, 10 medium ones and 20 very small ones) to preserve them longer. handling these I can somewhat tell its different materials in them, shine, rust, sound and handeling on material etc. And especially newer rasps seems to be poor "mystery metal" as they go dull quickly (hardly sharp to begin with). I do save the dull ones in case I would somehow sometime get access to a forge. But this video of yours have made believe I shall not save the rasps., Thanks again.
Love the video. I made this one knife from a file and experienced kind of the same thing but i would recommend you try a water quench on the softer files that didnt want to harden much. Mine quenched kind of soft into used motor oil and extremely hard into water (about 63 HRC and cut glass without damage). Basically comes down to a few points - 1. If its regular carbon steel, then it can be heat treated properly ( there are many ways to tell if it is carbon)
2. If its some sort of a blend, it will require special heat treating that you might have to discover by trial and error
3. If its mild steel somehow then you re better off throwing it away rather than trying to infuse it with carbon
I did try a water quench and parks 50 on all samples. There was a SMALL difference between water and parks 50 (maybe half a point hrc) but not enough to change the results. 🙂
Solid information, per usual.
Much obliged.
Hey, if it’s not too much trouble, could you do similar tests for 3 or 4 manufacture’s of drifts, punches, chisels, and gouges? And if you could have that up by Wednesday I’d really appreciate it.
[I’m kidding, I appreciate what you do, when you’re able to do it. I’m not looking to bury you in tedious repetition in the hopes it means I never have to encounter variability in my work.
I learn from what you post, but if I encounter something you haven’t talked about yet - then it’s on me to find the solution.
Keep being awesome.
Cheers!
Thanks for all the (years worth of) hard work and information!
Thank you for the work and the video. I also had the same thoughts but no equipment to prove them with. I'll be watching more thanks again.
It make sense that they wouldn't waste time and money making a wood rasp super hard when it's not needed.
I'm so glad I caught this...I've had many knife makers tell me to go use Ferriers files for knives. I'm in Denver now, and I hear there are several metal shops that can get me good steels, I just need to find them. I'm open to suggestions if anyone in the area knows!
Did you test a Heller big foot rasp( red tang)? Made several knives never had a problem. Thanks
I dod not🙂
I make many a great knives from farrier files (very wide and long ones) . Bellotta, Heller etc, never had issues on superb hardness.
I’ve made probably 100’s of file knives, used to make 1700s knives and many originals were made out of files.
I only used vintage old American files,that right there will take care of most of your problems
Don’t use a rasp because of the teeth
I forged all my blades and the rasps teeth can cause problems
When annealing the blade, heat up a flat bar, put it in a tray of vermiculite or wood ash then lay the red blade on it and bury them in the vermiculite
I usually differentially tempered my blades. Easiest way is to paint the back with stove clay then heat it and quench it in hot
Oil.
I use only Grover Vallorbe from Switzerland and Pferd from Germany for filing, files. I did make a dagger out of a USA mfg. Nicholson file from the 1960s. Nice presentation.
Modern Nicholson files are made in either Mexico or Brazil and come warped right from the blister pack. Kobalt a brand sold by Lowes have soft steel bodies and partially cut teeth.
With Nicholson, i also had the same experience. It curls after we soften it, i straightened it with a hammer. Can we continue with this material? Can we have good results? Thanks
I just got some 12 pferd flat files, they were made in China, cut pretty good though.
I have been getting the old American files like Nicholson files especially the ones grandparents had very good chance they are the good ones
Excellent information. I also have a rasp file that is designed for cast aluminum! Of course brass, bronze and copper as well.
This becomes even more of a pain in the ass when the files you are using are 6+ decades old and many of the manufacturers have gone the way of the dodo. Though, in my experience, most of them have been through hardened.
Yet another reason I’m glad my grandfather passed on to me a lifetime of experience and knowledge. He first explained grain structure to me when I was still in middle school.
Suggestions for what to do with a bunch of rusty triangular files I bought at auction for no good reason?
So far, I’ve been using them to slowly create more rust.
If found this great basic steel type info for a beginner knife makers. I am still planning my first knife.
very interesting video, congrats for the work
Thank you this vid was educational!
Thanks for this info- how about mower blades? Are they gold, or are they no good, since they are designed to be soft enough to survive hitting rocks? I have plenty of old mower blades sitting around
Another great video. Thanks for the guidelines.
Thank you for your Valuable Advice....
RR Spikes are another found blade material. You have a video on them?
I've always been told to use old, American made files...I have a few of those. I have 1 particular beauty with great checkered type pattern, but it still new, since it seems to have been barely used. I have Nicholsons, Simmons, Delta, and a Louisville Bluegrass. I don't wanna screw them up, so im planning carefully before knife making
The crunchy grain is classic overheated/burned steel.
Think for the info. the rasps are for wood or non metal work and don`t need to be harden. Looks like all the ones i have are now going to the scrap ben.👍🤟
Good info for newbies🤟🤟🤟🤟
Thank you for the info. Thus will same me a lot of pain and list time.
I’ve found that annealing by putting the hot file into ash it would usually take up to 3days to cool. I prefer Nicholson files.
Thank you for the information you provided. It was very useful, but I have a question about the metal automotive spring bar that is used in making knives.
Thank you for your hard work on this one. Great video 👍
Really wonderful job -- 30 files is a fantastic sample size for this!
Maybe, maybe not though...Just one file added to the mix that didn't conform to the standards throws the whole thong off. If I had tested a rasp that hardened sufficiently id have to add another category or add a caveat. Its the unknown mystery steel conundrum.
Thank you for your hardwork! 🤙
You know your stuff ! Thanks for the info !
Thank you for the video. I really appreciate the information.
Thats why i prefer older files if i can get my hands on them👍
I make my knives from files, I use grandad files ( pre 1960s) and stamped made in Britain.
All good so far 😎
Excellent video!
A lot of good information here ! Thank You for your efforts in putting this together !
Usually I spark test the file, but also heat and quench in wather something like 1.5cm of the end of the tang. If it's hardenable, it will snap, if not it will bend. Like this you don't loose knife material, just the anyway too thin end of the tang