Top tip: When you hear the intro music playing, skip forward 5 seconds. After the ROCK, you can skip forward another 5 seconds to skip the rest of the intro.
The only way i can see the Delta S4 going that fast is with the boost up to 5 bars, which Lancia actually tested. This gave it just over 1000hp, but i'm unsure if an engine that boosted ever went in a car
5 bars on the turbo. The supercharger could push 2 at the same time. Making around 1800. But I’m like 90% sure that was only on the dyno and the most they ever ran in a real rally was around 800ish
@@jackarmstrong7285 how the hell do you modulate the throttle on an engine boosted that hard? On pre 00's turbo tech too. They must have just put it flat and hoped for the best
100% the drivers that drove both were absolutely insane and skilled beyond anything we know of our time because of how connected they were to what was happening and how quickly it could end badly
@@jakeb2008 You can't compare a modern driver's skill to the ones of the older days. The theory might be the same but the required skills are much different. And you have to remember modern race cars are faster than anything thats ever been, modern F1 cars and modern WRC cars would wipe the floor with their old day counterparts easily.
Redbull has an article about this and they apparently investigated and found out that Toivonen indeed lapped the track at a private testing event and the time was there with the top10 fastest F1's that had driven on the track in testing that year. Over time ppl have just confused this with Toivonen's lap being in the top10 for actual qualifying that year in F1.
That would have to be some very very slow testing... Maybe rain conditions, basic aero or extreme fuel saving testing. Not much good race data to be had lapping 15+ seconds off pace.
That doesn't really say anything. To make a comparison that actually makes sense we have to know what F1 cars that had the other 9 lap times. Just as today, there was a huge gap between the top 3 teams and the rest. Literally seconds in difference. That together with the weather conditions e t c would explain why he could do that.
@@GoldenCroc Senna's race fastest lap in 1985 - when the track was absolutely drenched - was a 1:44.1. So if the F1 test was wet and the Group B event was dry, I could definitely see the Group B car getting close. But that caveat would destroy the myth of Group B being "almost as fast as an F1 car."
@@maxleitschuh7076 Yep, exactly. But the myth was never taken seriously by anyone with even a casual knowledge of simple physics anyway. Racing is nice, but literal magic, its not. It was just a fun story.
Didn't Jimmy already drive F1 cars on rally stages? They were pretty fast if the stages were smooth and fast enough to get some aero working iirc... Though in reality they'd probably just fall apart or the driver would end up with a shattered spine.
It was a private testing session from Lancia, the S4 was rumored to have about 700hp, and the time would put Toivonen in the top 10 of a F1 testing session. Not the qualifying or faster than Senna. Nini Russo tels it all on a interview. ;) Toivonen was a driving God! And acording to Russo the only one that really had a conection to the S4.
Henri actually tested for March back in the day. He was 1.4 seconds faster than March's race driver Raul Boesel. Henri had driven formula cars earlier in his career. At the end he chose rallying instead of Formula One, even though he had the talent on circuit racing to go all the way to F1.
@@oliverweiss5851 Markku Alen said in an Interview that Lancia gave him an engine with around 700hp for the Olympus Rally. That was the maximum amount of power what he ever experienced in the S4. 1000hp on gravel would be nearly undrivable. Markku said he was ok with the amount of power on gravel, but on tarmac the car scared him. It was not only one time in Gods hand. He used these words.
Correct...it wasnt comparing to the Portugal GP quali time, it was based on F1's did on the testing 3/2 weeks before toivonen did that lap, still fast tought
Senna's fastest lap in the 1985 Estoril grand prix was a 1:44.1, in the pouring rain, running race boost, with a heavy fuel load, and trying to maintain tyres. It's believed that the legend has got distorted over the years and that the real comparison is that the Group B car in test trim in the dry was faster than the P6 fastest lap in that race. If you compare your Group B time to those wet laps it's pretty similar and maybe plausible. Perhaps a rematch with F1 car in the 1985 conditions?
Oh my lord, Persona 5 music in a Jimmy Broadbent video? Absolutely based. Was very interested to see (well, listen to) this video, I'd always heard the rumors that the Group B cars were faster than the F1 cars of the time but wondered if they held any real weight.
wasn't the audi quattro slow on tarmac? I remember from the mini documentary Clarkson did on Lancia, that the 2wd lancia was faster than the more powerful 4wd audi due to the massive oversteer it had
The quattro was hard to get around a corner because it was 4wd instead of awd. The front and rear wheels are locked together and have to turn at the same speed, so it tended to understeer super hard unless you got the back end sliding around.
The Audi Sport Quattro E2, the one Jimmy is using, only won 1 rally and that was San Remo (gravel) 1985. The Audi Quattro A1 and A2 actually beat the 037 on tarmac in Portugal 83 and 84. The Quattro S1 was beaten by the 037 and 205 T16 in the 85 Portuguese rally. It never won at the other tarmac rally Tour de Corse, either beaten, retired or after Portugal in 1986 pulled out completely. It was prone to understeer and Walter Rohrl said it was difficult to handle, although on the San Remo rally in 1985 it set 29 fastest times on 43 special stages.
The Audi had always his faults on Tarmac, because of the front engine caused massive understeer. The last evolution of the sport quattro, the E2 had nearly a 50/50 weight ratio and the wings in combination with a better suspention made the car very quick in fast corners, but slow corners were still a problem. Walter Röhrl drove fantastic times at the San Remo Rally on Tarmac with slics and won the Rally with a few minutes ahead. The same happened in 1986 at the Monte Carlo Rallye. He was on dry Tarmac with slics even faster than Henry Toivonen in the Delta S4. Unfortunatly he had 2 tire punctures and problems with the engine management.
The Lancia 037 was faster on tarmac than the Audi A1/A2. In 1985 the S1 and all the other famous Group B cars made their appearence and the 037 only placed podium on a single event (Portugal). In 1986 they also had 2 podiums, but with all that happened that year I think its hard to judge that performance. Obviously a proper track would make things different, but I dont think we'll get a better comparison.
For those wondering, 5 bar of boost is approx. 72 psi. Imagine a workshop air pressure system hooked up to a car and that's about what those cars were sucking in. Absolutely mental
@@swagger897 Wouldn't make any difference. The speed in which the F1 can take the Casino corner e.g. is not even comparable. Again, it's NOT about the top speed. Where the F1 smokes everything else is under breaking and cornering.
I have a hazy recollection; back in 1992, when Mansell won the F1 and Will Gollop won the Euro Rallycross in his 6R4, there was a UK magazine article where they put the cars against each other. My worn out memory can't remember if it was real car against car, or if it was just using the recorded times but if what's left of memory works, the two cars were neck and neck till about 120mph... That twin turbo MG of Gollop's must've been an absolute animal to try and drive.
As other comments have suggested, the S4 was more advanced than the audi and the lap times might have been for wet conditions. Maybe try that in another video? Also, rumors say the S4 had an exprimental engine with 700-800 HP... Maybe you could try that with your SimRacing powers
Senna did a 1:44 in the wet race at estoril in 1985, I could see it starting out as "Nearly as fast as an f1 car in the wet" and the story just escalated every time it was told
@@seananthony9664 Yeah! i've seen people saying it could do 1800bhp in quali spec Senna's '86 quali time was 1:16.67, a Group B isn't getting anywhere near that, whoever says it did has found a testing time or the track was damp etc. Race fastest lap was 1:20.94
Kart tracks perhaps, only places where an F1 car would basically need to come to a full stop in most corners for the rally car to use its only advantage - acceleration.
Nah, even back then the speeds the F1 could take the corners in were on a completely different plane. A common mistake people make is that it's about top speed. And, yes, of course it makes a difference. However, LM cars e.g. is geared to go way faster than an F1 (Indy on ovals as well) but they stand no chance over the whole lap. There are two factors where nothing can beat a F1 and that is breaking and cornering speed. Acceleration and top speed can be the same, but compare the former two and you'll see why a F1 will humiliate all other cars.
This story is quite popular here in Portugal, especially among the rally fans. Razão Automóvel, one of the biggest Portuguese automotive medias made a post about this some years ago. What they found is that Henri Toivonen's run actually happened! But the story was quite distorted and his time wouldn't qualify him at 6th place on Portuguese GP, on the real story, his time would "just" get him on the top 10 of a private test that had occured on the same track, three weeks before.
@@kristianangeloni we also need to take in considerstion that the delta's time was set (irl, i mean) running more boost, so around 700~800hp. Way more than the audi Jimmer used, still couldnt really challange an f1 car, but it would be even closer
@@VictorioLopes plus the delta its self was generally faster than the quattro, with the unfortunate trade of being that it was much more dangerous. mid engine, awd, 800hp and less than a ton of weight does sound quite nippy.
i love stuff like this that sim racing allows us to do. reminds me of when i raced an suv (the maserati in ac) against an f1 car (the lotus 25) around nords and they were pretty damn close if i remember right
As a follow up, Jimmy, and in keeping with the Group B spirit, I would love to see how many more HP would the car need with no other modification to get within the same ballpark! Anyway, the thing I find funny is that the comparison itself is also not particularly fair, for the very reason that it is interesting: a rally car isn't set up for a track, and the closer you get, the less rally the car feels. At some point, what you would get would be a touring car, instead of a "rally" car. You could probably drop some of the protective elements since the track should be fairly clean and clear. You'd lower the suspension, stiffening it and reducing some of the roll. Everything that makes it what it is, you'd sacrifice at the altar of time. And I think you'd get closer -- you might even get there, perhaps with a bigger engine -- but it wouldn't be as a rally car.
to be fair for a bigger engine it was rumored most of the famous boosted group b cars had what i like to call a stupid mode where the engineers turned up the boost the audi was rumored to be at 800-1000hp and the delta was rumored at around 700-1200hp in those trims and the delta might have been better because the mid engine might have made more rear bias making it easier but group b was the king of rally so ill watch this video a few times
I really enjoyed this - even if I knew the result! I would be interested to see some other cars from the same era attempt a best lap at Estoril though - perhaps the actual car in question Lacia Delta S4, maybe the more tarmac friendly Lancia 037. I doubt it can be accurately Sim'd, but the Delta prototype for the cancelled Group S would be very very interesting!
I seem to remeber an article from Octane a few years ago about the Delta S4, and when they started asking one of the Lancia Mechanics about where the Lap time came form they replied "straght form the Marketing head's Arse!". And another said that the F1 times they were comparing them selfs to were testing laps done in the rain.
Fun fact. A spectator reached out to touch a passing 205 T16 and ended up with 2 of their fingers severed by the car's side intake. The fingers were found in the radiator after the stage.
This messes with my brain. Where would the Delta get the corner speed from, especially when compared to a full-fat, dry turbo Senna qualifying lap, with the Group B cars ‘only’ having 400+ BHP. It makes zero sense.
Yes, that’s because I believe the original myth was not a full flying lap from the delta and instead started in t1 at the start of the stage and ended on exit of the final corner. Because otherwise it wouldn’t work as a rally stage and the cars would’ve topped out
Not just the corner speed. Senna's *average* lap speed was 205 km/h. The Delta's supposed top speed was 225 km/h. And Portugal is not the type of rally you run with the gears used in Finland for that top speed. Oh and the Delta is 50% heavier than an '86 F1 car as well. It's pure nonsense.
@@goosebee there is absolutely no chance. The F1 car is lighter, more powerful, has wider tires and has far far better aero. Only application a group B car MIGHT beat a F1 car is in a 1/8th mile drag race
@@goosebee The F1 car is much, much lighter(500KG minimum limit back then) has much more downforce and mechanical grip, even if they had the same horsepower like the NA cars did in 87, it would be an easy win, on dry tarmac.
In 1985 an F1 car was only 1.6 seconds slower than the winner of the Paris to Dakar Rally. This f1 car was also so fast it would have come 6th on the grid at the UIM Class 1 World Powerboat Championships. I now expect Jim to prove this on a sim, otherwise we will never know the truth.
Don’t be thick. Historic cars will always be special, but technology makes today’s cars 10000% more “cutting edge” than those tin cans with a fuck load of power lol
That is a load bs, there weren't the most "cutting edge". Already in late 90s the Group A cars were faster than the Group B cars despite a big power difference.
I mean, if you put the Lotus on gravel I'm sure things would look different. :P Seriously though, its crazy to think that Group B had that kind of performance under such conditions. Rally events could be about 10 times the distance of a F1 race or even longer. These suckers had to be durable as fuck to just have the slightest chance of winning.
The funny thing about the Audi was that because it was so nose heavy, Stig Blomqvist said that it felt like he was driving a front wheel drive car, like the old Saab 96, and he could just hang it out as far as he wanted to make a corner, and the car would just come back every time he hit the throttle!
Yes F1 is faster. But it looks numb at times. Group B and rally cars look alive and cars moving everywhere. Plus the rally noise is far better. Great vid Jimmy 👍
Both racing series were very fast for what they did. It was a really good video and watching experience, more of these types of videos would be really cool.
I've heard the various versions of this myth/legend over the years, and the only one which comes close to making any kind of sense is the one which was supposedly printed in the 1986/87 edition of "RALLYWORLD", as a summary of the rallying year. This version states: "Picking a winner was difficult, near impossible, but Henri Toivonen was one of the favorites. Still on a high and enjoying it all so much, he relaxed one evening by taking Grand Prix driver Jonathan Palmer on a few laps of the Estoril track in his Delta S4. In pouring rain, and at night, the Finn startled Palmer somewhat with the sheer performance of the racer, some unofficial estimates suggesting that the lap times would have had them somewhere on the front half of the grid for the 'wet' 1985 Portuguese Formula One race." If we take this to mean that the Delta S4 could have been around as fast as the top ~12 F1 cars in the wet 1985 Portuguese Grand Prix (I think "front half of the grid" here doesn't refer to qualifying, but the wet race) while driving in similarly very wet conditions then it's maybe possibly close to the truth. If you check clips from the 1985 Portuguese Grand Prix you can see just how wet it was, with the amount of standing water and rivers across the track causing massive problems with aquaplaning.
That does seem plausible - even modern F1 cars can lose 10 seconds a lap in the wet and I imagine it could have been much worse back then with older tire compounds. A 4wd rally car with wet tires on would likely be able to put its power down easier than a 1000hp RWD tin can, but it would still lose out on top speed since rally cars are designed for twisty roads and short straights. And the “unofficial estimates” sound like some dudes at the dark rainy track with stop watches haha
In the same weather the f1 car would still be way faster than the rally car. In different weather...ie a track that is almost under water vs a rally car in the semi damp...the rally car could be faster. Let's all make totally unfair comparisons to get the answer we want to hear.
The Delta S4 had better power delivery, a more adaptive AWD system, the engine was mid mounted, and it technically had more power so theoretically, you could have gone faster if you had the Lancia Delta S4 set up the way they did at the time. The difference would not be a second it would be more like 4 - 9 seconds... still mental though
EXACTLY my thoughts when i seen S1 instead of Delta S4. Even numbers are don't lie: S1 did 0-100 for ~3seconds, when Delta S4 did 0-100 for 2.3 seconds (at gravel). We should summary S4 technical abilities with Henri Toivonen pure genius at asphalt and his full understanding of S4 (when even Alen said S4 is scaring him at asphalt). His brother Harry Toivonen said in some video interview: Henri made him speechless for outstanding driving at this car and his brake&turn abilities.
I just watched your 2016 video and 2017 video and it is just amiazing how much you changed in that year. In the 2016 video you are depressed and you sound really, really sad. But in the 2017 video you are so glad and you laugh and are happy. That is just amazing to me. Last but not least I just want to say that I love your content, congrats on the house and never stop making videos!
Hearing your love for VR Dirt Rally 2.0, I am surprised you don't create some AC VR content. IMO, it's still the best VR Sim in performance and fidelity.
My dad was in 85 or 86 in Finland and saw Goup B. He said the most epic thing was at night. You could see the lights comming in the forrest and the bangs. He said it sounded like a machine gun ecoing. The hairs was standing at that point :D
But the Lancia handles different from the Quattro, the weight distribution helped it in the corners due to it having more weight in the back (sort of like an F1 car)this made it to where it had considerably less front plow than the Quattro. The Lancia was also somewhat exempt from the lag that the Quattro had since it had a supercharger and an turbo, so it could power through a corner like no tomorrow. The Quattro was a good car, but in terms of technical innovation, handling and sheer speed the Lancia Delta S4 is on top and king of the Group B monsters
I'd love to see the comparison between F1 Cars and the fastest productions cars of the same era. Seeing how far technology has come, and how the modern fastest cars can beat some of the classic F1 cars, would be interesting.
Markku Alen and Juha Kankkunen were chatting about these cars. These things were such beasts, that when they changed to group A, the cars felt so slow that in the Finnish rally they drove with one hand and waved to the crowds!
I wonder at what point did i even stop caring about car content, sometimes i feel like i'm here just for Jimmers ramblings. I love it even more when he's aware of it with those edits. I love that fellow, I really do.
Because I'm old as dirt, I remember that particular rumor from back in the day. I think I read that in a magazine article called "Death of the Killer Bee's". Thanks Jimmy, you're as cool as the other side of the pillow
Brilliant video. You really need to come up to the rally stage at Goodwood Festival of Speed, one of my favourite places. Mates do get a bit sick of me spending so much time up there lol.
Great content jimmer! I'd really love to see more of those comparison videos. Something like what is faster around Le Mans? 70s - 80s Prototypes or modern GTE. Or what is faster around an f1 track? F2 vs Indycars.
I am old enough that I actually went to both the 1984 and 1985 RAC rally stages at Chatsworth, and seeing the Group B cars was the most mind bending thing I have ever seen.
The Delta S4 F1 qualifying story probably comes from the fact that a shortened version of the circuit was used as a rally stage at, I think, the Portuguese rally in 1986...
Another idea - Donington 1993. Senna only took the outright lap record from a Peugeot Group C car on a lap he drove through the pits without stopping. It was a shortcut, and no speed limits in those days. How close can a group C car get to an early 90s 3.5l F1 car at Donington?
Back in the 90's my dad was active in the British sprinting scene (think against the clock on major UK circuits), now at that point most of the quick boys were running things like late 80's F3000 cars with F1 engines like the 3.5l DFR. At the same events there would be a class that would cover Group B cars too, so you would get the odd one appearing from time to time. In the dry there was no comparison, at all, the Group B wouldn't be near getting into the top 10 run offs, but....... if it was a really wet day, now there was something to behold. Formula cars tip toeing around, waiting to get the power down when they could get traction compared to a 6R4 giving it full beans on every corner. If memory serves the Group B cars times would be very close to their own dry times and they would appear very close to the top in the run offs. It might be worth trying something similar to this video but in stinking wet conditions and see what the result is.
Things felt so magical when I was a kid, hearing stories about the good old days. I was born in 1990, so my only experiences with racing as a young’n was actually going to races. And with no internet to temper my expectations, my imagination ran wild. How I wished I could experience these legendary past eras of racing! The drivers and the cars are heroes to me. The emotion he expresses over Group B and indeed the legendary F1 cars of the same era is so damn relatable. I know exactly how you feel. It really is an emotional connection to these things. It’s special. How lucky are we to have sims now.. unbelievable.
Jimmy, greetings from Brasil. Nice vid. I really like when you explore historical content doing things that basically can only be done in simracing now. As a suggestion, you could explore the myth that Group C prototypes were actually faster then F1 of their era in some circumstances. Like in Silverstone, that at that time was basically a series of airplane runways connected by fast corners... This myth seems more plausible to me. Some say that this performance felt F1 organizers fear the competition so they worked to put an end to Group C.
I never skip the intro, and the only reason is :
"ROCK !"
*Thump*
And the Waaah! As the Merc slides through Gambon corner.
Me too!
Top tip:
When you hear the intro music playing, skip forward 5 seconds.
After the ROCK, you can skip forward another 5 seconds to skip the rest of the intro.
And the BeamNG robin super close wreck 😆
I remember watching the clip "Rock" and repeating for 30 times just laughing,and then it got added in the intro
"Sim racing MythBusters" could actually be a fun series of videos.
We could call it "SimBusters"
@@alexthesb2241 I’m thinking that would be a different kind of VR content 🤔
@@alexthesb2241 lmaoo
@@alexthesb2241 yes
Yes please
The only way i can see the Delta S4 going that fast is with the boost up to 5 bars, which Lancia actually tested. This gave it just over 1000hp, but i'm unsure if an engine that boosted ever went in a car
5 bars on the turbo. The supercharger could push 2 at the same time. Making around 1800. But I’m like 90% sure that was only on the dyno and the most they ever ran in a real rally was around 800ish
Yes it went on a car with Markku Alen in the 1986 Olympus Rally. But on the Estoril Test there was an around 700 horsepower test engine installed.
Yeah, even though Henri was one of the best and bravest drivers, he couldn't possibly do it except if he cut the corners then maybe
@@jackarmstrong7285 that's not how it works
The supercharger only gives boost at low rpm
And then the turbo takes over at higher rpm
@@jackarmstrong7285 how the hell do you modulate the throttle on an engine boosted that hard? On pre 00's turbo tech too. They must have just put it flat and hoped for the best
that overlay at 13:20 was trippy and proper class at the same time
Why not make a series out of it called "simbusters" quite enjoyed the backstory just as much as the driving
Well the f1 cars were coffins on wheels while the group b cars were Amazon boxes with 500 hp
@holy peanut: what exactly, do you mean mate🤷🏼♂️ Both were equally dangerous, or what?
@@fioralbannach6647 He means just in how the vehicles are shaped, not in how dangerous they were
100% the drivers that drove both were absolutely insane and skilled beyond anything we know of our time because of how connected they were to what was happening and how quickly it could end badly
@@thezenzo96 ok thanks man.
@@jakeb2008 You can't compare a modern driver's skill to the ones of the older days. The theory might be the same but the required skills are much different. And you have to remember modern race cars are faster than anything thats ever been, modern F1 cars and modern WRC cars would wipe the floor with their old day counterparts easily.
Redbull has an article about this and they apparently investigated and found out that Toivonen indeed lapped the track at a private testing event and the time was there with the top10 fastest F1's that had driven on the track in testing that year. Over time ppl have just confused this with Toivonen's lap being in the top10 for actual qualifying that year in F1.
so the reality is that a group B car could challenge a F1 car of the same year... in a testing pace.
That would have to be some very very slow testing... Maybe rain conditions, basic aero or extreme fuel saving testing. Not much good race data to be had lapping 15+ seconds off pace.
That doesn't really say anything. To make a comparison that actually makes sense we have to know what F1 cars that had the other 9 lap times. Just as today, there was a huge gap between the top 3 teams and the rest. Literally seconds in difference.
That together with the weather conditions e t c would explain why he could do that.
@@GoldenCroc Senna's race fastest lap in 1985 - when the track was absolutely drenched - was a 1:44.1. So if the F1 test was wet and the Group B event was dry, I could definitely see the Group B car getting close. But that caveat would destroy the myth of Group B being "almost as fast as an F1 car."
@@maxleitschuh7076 Yep, exactly. But the myth was never taken seriously by anyone with even a casual knowledge of simple physics anyway. Racing is nice, but literal magic, its not. It was just a fun story.
You could throw the two cars on a Rallye track and calculate which car loses more time percentually on the others home track. :)
I like the idea
Would have been nice to see maybe like a mountain pass track, something that both cars could at least feel comfortable in
On a rally track I guess the challenge is more "which car loses more pieces" (F1 car, I suspect) :-)
Didn't Jimmy already drive F1 cars on rally stages? They were pretty fast if the stages were smooth and fast enough to get some aero working iirc... Though in reality they'd probably just fall apart or the driver would end up with a shattered spine.
@@nanatzaya tarmac rally?
It was a private testing session from Lancia, the S4 was rumored to have about 700hp, and the time would put Toivonen in the top 10 of a F1 testing session. Not the qualifying or faster than Senna. Nini Russo tels it all on a interview. ;) Toivonen was a driving God! And acording to Russo the only one that really had a conection to the S4.
I had heard it was an experimental test bed that had 1000bhp. Funny how mythos works!
Henri actually tested for March back in the day. He was 1.4 seconds faster than March's race driver Raul Boesel. Henri had driven formula cars earlier in his career. At the end he chose rallying instead of Formula One, even though he had the talent on circuit racing to go all the way to F1.
@@jackrex7817 There was in the 1986 Olympus Rally.
@@oliverweiss5851 Markku Alen said in an Interview that Lancia gave him an engine with around 700hp for the Olympus Rally. That was the maximum amount of power what he ever experienced in the S4. 1000hp on gravel would be nearly undrivable. Markku said he was ok with the amount of power on gravel, but on tarmac the car scared him. It was not only one time in Gods hand. He used these words.
Correct...it wasnt comparing to the Portugal GP quali time, it was based on F1's did on the testing 3/2 weeks before toivonen did that lap, still fast tought
Senna's fastest lap in the 1985 Estoril grand prix was a 1:44.1, in the pouring rain, running race boost, with a heavy fuel load, and trying to maintain tyres. It's believed that the legend has got distorted over the years and that the real comparison is that the Group B car in test trim in the dry was faster than the P6 fastest lap in that race. If you compare your Group B time to those wet laps it's pretty similar and maybe plausible. Perhaps a rematch with F1 car in the 1985 conditions?
This actually makes the most sense.
Oh my lord, Persona 5 music in a Jimmy Broadbent video? Absolutely based.
Was very interested to see (well, listen to) this video, I'd always heard the rumors that the Group B cars were faster than the F1 cars of the time but wondered if they held any real weight.
Jimmy “not a weeb” broadbent
Persona music wouldn’t be out of place in Gran Turismo lol
I knew it this song told me something
Made me laugh when I noticed the Lotus' boost gauge starts at 2 bar / 29 psi.
wasn't the audi quattro slow on tarmac? I remember from the mini documentary Clarkson did on Lancia, that the 2wd lancia was faster than the more powerful 4wd audi due to the massive oversteer it had
The quattro was hard to get around a corner because it was 4wd instead of awd. The front and rear wheels are locked together and have to turn at the same speed, so it tended to understeer super hard unless you got the back end sliding around.
The Audi Sport Quattro E2, the one Jimmy is using, only won 1 rally and that was San Remo (gravel) 1985. The Audi Quattro A1 and A2 actually beat the 037 on tarmac in Portugal 83 and 84. The Quattro S1 was beaten by the 037 and 205 T16 in the 85 Portuguese rally. It never won at the other tarmac rally Tour de Corse, either beaten, retired or after Portugal in 1986 pulled out completely. It was prone to understeer and Walter Rohrl said it was difficult to handle, although on the San Remo rally in 1985 it set 29 fastest times on 43 special stages.
The Audi had always his faults on Tarmac, because of the front engine caused massive understeer. The last evolution of the sport quattro, the E2 had nearly a 50/50 weight ratio and the wings in combination with a better suspention made the car very quick in fast corners, but slow corners were still a problem. Walter Röhrl drove fantastic times at the San Remo Rally on Tarmac with slics and won the Rally with a few minutes ahead. The same happened in 1986 at the Monte Carlo Rallye. He was on dry Tarmac with slics even faster than Henry Toivonen in the Delta S4. Unfortunatly he had 2 tire punctures and problems with the engine management.
The Lancia 037 was faster on tarmac than the Audi A1/A2. In 1985 the S1 and all the other famous Group B cars made their appearence and the 037 only placed podium on a single event (Portugal). In 1986 they also had 2 podiums, but with all that happened that year I think its hard to judge that performance.
Obviously a proper track would make things different, but I dont think we'll get a better comparison.
For those wondering, 5 bar of boost is approx. 72 psi. Imagine a workshop air pressure system hooked up to a car and that's about what those cars were sucking in.
Absolutely mental
I'd love to see this done around 80's Monoco.
Agreed. I can see them being much closer together on a track with slower corners and shorter straights, like Gr. B raced on.
@@swagger897 Wouldn't make any difference. The speed in which the F1 can take the Casino corner e.g. is not even comparable.
Again, it's NOT about the top speed. Where the F1 smokes everything else is under breaking and cornering.
@@swagger897 no, since downforce gains you the most time in slow corners :)
those brakes in the beginning are better then my fiesta. 10/10 braking.
would brake again
@@emmata98 lmao shouldve added that
As a fellow fiesta owner . . . I feel your pain
@@jacobm2625 fiesta gang
@@jacobm2625 Did you try paint your brake pads red? gives 10hp for each pad. Plus did you try drilled or slotted disks?
3:57 The DiRT Rally instructions soundtrack in the background suits really well in my opinion
I have a hazy recollection; back in 1992, when Mansell won the F1 and Will Gollop won the Euro Rallycross in his 6R4, there was a UK magazine article where they put the cars against each other. My worn out memory can't remember if it was real car against car, or if it was just using the recorded times but if what's left of memory works, the two cars were neck and neck till about 120mph... That twin turbo MG of Gollop's must've been an absolute animal to try and drive.
As other comments have suggested, the S4 was more advanced than the audi and the lap times might have been for wet conditions. Maybe try that in another video?
Also, rumors say the S4 had an exprimental engine with 700-800 HP... Maybe you could try that with your SimRacing powers
"We're round, we're round"
Fine, Jimmy. I'll run a mile tomorrow.
Senna did a 1:44 in the wet race at estoril in 1985, I could see it starting out as "Nearly as fast as an f1 car in the wet" and the story just escalated every time it was told
Same as how the BMW F1 engine seems to produce more power every time you hear about it
@@chrisdavidson911 oh the Brabham one that has 200hp more every decade?
@@seananthony9664 Yeah! i've seen people saying it could do 1800bhp in quali spec
Senna's '86 quali time was 1:16.67, a Group B isn't getting anywhere near that, whoever says it did has found a testing time or the track was damp etc. Race fastest lap was 1:20.94
This might be one of the more likely reasons, unless someone just plain made it up.
I do wonder, on the right track if the group b car could be faster than the f1 car, I’m thinking of tracks like cadwell, Monaco, ext..
Kart tracks perhaps, only places where an F1 car would basically need to come to a full stop in most corners for the rally car to use its only advantage - acceleration.
Id love to see a modern wrc car going around a kart track.
Nah, even back then the speeds the F1 could take the corners in were on a completely different plane. A common mistake people make is that it's about top speed.
And, yes, of course it makes a difference. However, LM cars e.g. is geared to go way faster than an F1 (Indy on ovals as well) but they stand no chance over the whole lap.
There are two factors where nothing can beat a F1 and that is breaking and cornering speed. Acceleration and top speed can be the same, but compare the former two and you'll see why a F1 will humiliate all other cars.
i dont think monaco could happen, the rally car would lose too much time on the straights and through the tunnel going into nouvelle
Just imagine Audi Quattro powersliding through the hairpin and casino section, that would be so insanely cool
9:23 "The difference between bravery and stupidity is results."
I appreciate the Persona music.
mmm, this is the good stuff my friend!
Henlo
eeehhhhhhhhh! It's GPLaps! Cheers.
This story is quite popular here in Portugal, especially among the rally fans. Razão Automóvel, one of the biggest Portuguese automotive medias made a post about this some years ago. What they found is that Henri Toivonen's run actually happened! But the story was quite distorted and his time wouldn't qualify him at 6th place on Portuguese GP, on the real story, his time would "just" get him on the top 10 of a private test that had occured on the same track, three weeks before.
Possible, but even then unlikely, or it would have been one very slow test. Maybe if it rained during the test.
I really like the green screen cam with the cockpit view on bottom and track/news view on top help you get a feel for grip and how fast the cars going
I know the delta/estoril myth as the delta being 10sec slower than F1 pole. Which is still epic
Actually 23 seconds slower than F1 is epic AF for a rally car.
@@kristianangeloni we also need to take in considerstion that the delta's time was set (irl, i mean) running more boost, so around 700~800hp. Way more than the audi Jimmer used, still couldnt really challange an f1 car, but it would be even closer
@@VictorioLopes plus the delta its self was generally faster than the quattro, with the unfortunate trade of being that it was much more dangerous. mid engine, awd, 800hp and less than a ton of weight does sound quite nippy.
i love stuff like this that sim racing allows us to do. reminds me of when i raced an suv (the maserati in ac) against an f1 car (the lotus 25) around nords and they were pretty damn close if i remember right
i used to love racing the suv's, with the right track you just take so many grassy apex's :D
Persona 5 Soundtrack. Much respect.
I certainly never saw that coming.
Did you think I wouldn't notice the Persona 5 music? You were wrong.
i guess he expected us to never see it coming huh
Loved it, thought Life will change worked really well with when he got into the F1 car
so thaaat's what I heard that sounded familiar! Thanks!
I was like "wait did I leave some music playing somewhere else?" Lmao
13:00 Editor-chan killed it with simultaneous onboard and on track footage
Love the cut / vibe of this video. New era of jimmy ^^
NASCAR cars raced at Le Mans in 1976. What would a modern NASCAR do in a Le Mans GT field?
Poorly, unless they took the chicanes out again.
Thank you, Jimmer. "More power than sense," gave me the giggles.
As a follow up, Jimmy, and in keeping with the Group B spirit, I would love to see how many more HP would the car need with no other modification to get within the same ballpark!
Anyway, the thing I find funny is that the comparison itself is also not particularly fair, for the very reason that it is interesting: a rally car isn't set up for a track, and the closer you get, the less rally the car feels. At some point, what you would get would be a touring car, instead of a "rally" car. You could probably drop some of the protective elements since the track should be fairly clean and clear. You'd lower the suspension, stiffening it and reducing some of the roll. Everything that makes it what it is, you'd sacrifice at the altar of time. And I think you'd get closer -- you might even get there, perhaps with a bigger engine -- but it wouldn't be as a rally car.
to be fair for a bigger engine it was rumored most of the famous boosted group b cars had what i like to call a stupid mode where the engineers turned up the boost the audi was rumored to be at 800-1000hp and the delta was rumored at around 700-1200hp in those trims and the delta might have been better because the mid engine might have made more rear bias making it easier but group b was the king of rally so ill watch this video a few times
I really enjoyed this - even if I knew the result! I would be interested to see some other cars from the same era attempt a best lap at Estoril though - perhaps the actual car in question Lacia Delta S4, maybe the more tarmac friendly Lancia 037. I doubt it can be accurately Sim'd, but the Delta prototype for the cancelled Group S would be very very interesting!
Loved the format and it was a nice little childhood spark for me too :)
I seem to remeber an article from Octane a few years ago about the Delta S4, and when they started asking one of the Lancia Mechanics about where the Lap time came form they replied "straght form the Marketing head's Arse!". And another said that the F1 times they were comparing them selfs to were testing laps done in the rain.
Seems likely.
Well the driven laps were also done in rain so it wouldn't make sense to compare them to dry lap times.
This man really used persona music in the background. Love it
I wouldn’t trust any press releases coming from Lancia in the 80s 😂
This needs to be a series.
Video quality has skyrocketed in the last month or two which is great to see. I can't wait for other vids like this one
Fun fact. A spectator reached out to touch a passing 205 T16 and ended up with 2 of their fingers severed by the car's side intake. The fingers were found in the radiator after the stage.
This messes with my brain. Where would the Delta get the corner speed from, especially when compared to a full-fat, dry turbo Senna qualifying lap, with the Group B cars ‘only’ having 400+ BHP.
It makes zero sense.
Yes, that’s because I believe the original myth was not a full flying lap from the delta and instead started in t1 at the start of the stage and ended on exit of the final corner. Because otherwise it wouldn’t work as a rally stage and the cars would’ve topped out
Not just the corner speed. Senna's *average* lap speed was 205 km/h. The Delta's supposed top speed was 225 km/h. And Portugal is not the type of rally you run with the gears used in Finland for that top speed.
Oh and the Delta is 50% heavier than an '86 F1 car as well.
It's pure nonsense.
@@goosebee there is absolutely no chance. The F1 car is lighter, more powerful, has wider tires and has far far better aero. Only application a group B car MIGHT beat a F1 car is in a 1/8th mile drag race
@@goosebee The F1 car is much, much lighter(500KG minimum limit back then) has much more downforce and mechanical grip, even if they had the same horsepower like the NA cars did in 87, it would be an easy win, on dry tarmac.
Always did make zero sense. Thing is, most people into cars and racing dont actually now much about how cars (or physics) work.
Mythbusters or Era vs Era could be a great series to run. Was great seeing a circuit like Estoril too!
Min 14:10 Hi jimmy. I really appreciate you using my remix in this video. I send you a hug 😀
The real story goes that henri was testing out a 800hp+ s4 on track and was keeping up with F1 times.
I myth I would like to see being tested: what's the fastest era of world rally cars? Many think it's Group B, but I'm not so sure.
Modern WRC
Jimmy, Ever heard of Cleetus McFarland? You should try to get in on one of the races he organizes.
2.4 hours of Mullets? 2 more drivers needed...
i would pay to see that
the spectators in group B rallying are actually road markers that tell you where to go
Listening to the background music while Jimmy briefly explains the Audi brings back some fond memories of DiRT Rally.
I’d love to see the reverse of this experiment - seeing how the F1 car compares on a rally stage.
Jimmer! DO more of this shit! I WANT moooore!!!!!
In 1985 an F1 car was only 1.6 seconds slower than the winner of the Paris to Dakar Rally. This f1 car was also so fast it would have come 6th on the grid at the UIM Class 1 World Powerboat Championships. I now expect Jim to prove this on a sim, otherwise we will never know the truth.
13:16 That was very innovative.
Thanks Jimmer, very cool.
No matter what group b rally cars will be the most cutting edge machinery ever in motorsport
I mean f1 are faster but ok
*laughs in Williams FW14 and FW15*
Don’t be thick. Historic cars will always be special, but technology makes today’s cars 10000% more “cutting edge” than those tin cans with a fuck load of power lol
That is a load bs, there weren't the most "cutting edge". Already in late 90s the Group A cars were faster than the Group B cars despite a big power difference.
I mean, if you put the Lotus on gravel I'm sure things would look different. :P
Seriously though, its crazy to think that Group B had that kind of performance under such conditions. Rally events could be about 10 times the distance of a F1 race or even longer. These suckers had to be durable as fuck to just have the slightest chance of winning.
This was such a great vid, watching someone who clearly is enjoying what they do makes it so much more enjoyable
The funny thing about the Audi was that because it was so nose heavy, Stig Blomqvist said that it felt like he was driving a front wheel drive car, like the old Saab 96, and he could just hang it out as far as he wanted to make a corner, and the car would just come back every time he hit the throttle!
This is exactly what i needed...
Yes F1 is faster. But it looks numb at times. Group B and rally cars look alive and cars moving everywhere. Plus the rally noise is far better.
Great vid Jimmy 👍
F1 qualifying in 1986 was not numb, those cars were alive - check out adelaide qualifying in 1986...
Both racing series were very fast for what they did. It was a really good video and watching experience, more of these types of videos would be really cool.
Petition to make a new series called sim buster. Where you bust myths about racing in general
I've heard the various versions of this myth/legend over the years, and the only one which comes close to making any kind of sense is the one which was supposedly printed in the 1986/87 edition of "RALLYWORLD", as a summary of the rallying year. This version states:
"Picking a winner was difficult, near impossible, but Henri Toivonen was one of the favorites. Still on a high and enjoying it all so much, he relaxed one evening by taking Grand Prix driver Jonathan Palmer on a few laps of the Estoril track in his Delta S4. In pouring rain, and at night, the Finn startled Palmer somewhat with the sheer performance of the racer, some unofficial estimates suggesting that the lap times would have had them somewhere on the front half of the grid for the 'wet' 1985 Portuguese Formula One race."
If we take this to mean that the Delta S4 could have been around as fast as the top ~12 F1 cars in the wet 1985 Portuguese Grand Prix (I think "front half of the grid" here doesn't refer to qualifying, but the wet race) while driving in similarly very wet conditions then it's maybe possibly close to the truth.
If you check clips from the 1985 Portuguese Grand Prix you can see just how wet it was, with the amount of standing water and rivers across the track causing massive problems with aquaplaning.
That would make sense. 1.6 seconds off pole in the dry certainly doesnt.
That does seem plausible - even modern F1 cars can lose 10 seconds a lap in the wet and I imagine it could have been much worse back then with older tire compounds. A 4wd rally car with wet tires on would likely be able to put its power down easier than a 1000hp RWD tin can, but it would still lose out on top speed since rally cars are designed for twisty roads and short straights.
And the “unofficial estimates” sound like some dudes at the dark rainy track with stop watches haha
In the same weather the f1 car would still be way faster than the rally car. In different weather...ie a track that is almost under water vs a rally car in the semi damp...the rally car could be faster. Let's all make totally unfair comparisons to get the answer we want to hear.
@@kikii1 "In the same weather the f1 car would still be way faster than the rally car."
@@amp888 According to Jim, Senna did a 1 min 16. The rally car never got anywhere near that in 1985.
The Delta S4 had better power delivery, a more adaptive AWD system, the engine was mid mounted, and it technically had more power so theoretically, you could have gone faster if you had the Lancia Delta S4 set up the way they did at the time. The difference would not be a second it would be more like 4 - 9 seconds... still mental though
EXACTLY my thoughts when i seen S1 instead of Delta S4. Even numbers are don't lie: S1 did 0-100 for ~3seconds, when Delta S4 did 0-100 for 2.3 seconds (at gravel). We should summary S4 technical abilities with Henri Toivonen pure genius at asphalt and his full understanding of S4 (when even Alen said S4 is scaring him at asphalt). His brother Harry Toivonen said in some video interview: Henri made him speechless for outstanding driving at this car and his brake&turn abilities.
(sorry, redacted)
Would love this sort of video made into a series, could see it being really fun. Also, we need Jimmer's car tier list now that you've mentioned it
I just watched your 2016 video and 2017 video and it is just amiazing how much you changed in that year. In the 2016 video you are depressed and you sound really, really sad. But in the 2017 video you are so glad and you laugh and are happy. That is just amazing to me. Last but not least I just want to say that I love your content, congrats on the house and never stop making videos!
Jimmyyyy your helmet is in f1 2021!!!
I hope it's not his 'Little Jimmer' helmet?
@@mikehipperson idk which one that is but its the helmet he uses irl with the yellow to orange stripes
No one
Jimmy: BOX
I remember talking about this on an f1 forum back in 2005. Someone suggested that maybe Toivonen's lap was on the other, shorter layouts.
No, it seems its Sennas lap that was in the rain.
Hearing your love for VR Dirt Rally 2.0, I am surprised you don't create some AC VR content. IMO, it's still the best VR Sim in performance and fidelity.
It was Toivonen in the wet, who would have qualified in 6th against the f1 field in the wet
Only thing I have to say is that Toivonen was a way better driver than Jimmy and the Lancia drove quite differently than this Quattro.
My dad was in 85 or 86 in Finland and saw Goup B. He said the most epic thing was at night. You could see the lights comming in the forrest and the bangs. He said it sounded like a machine gun ecoing. The hairs was standing at that point :D
But the Lancia handles different from the Quattro, the weight distribution helped it in the corners due to it having more weight in the back (sort of like an F1 car)this made it to where it had considerably less front plow than the Quattro. The Lancia was also somewhat exempt from the lag that the Quattro had since it had a supercharger and an turbo, so it could power through a corner like no tomorrow. The Quattro was a good car, but in terms of technical innovation, handling and sheer speed the Lancia Delta S4 is on top and king of the Group B monsters
I am speed
I'd love to see the comparison between F1 Cars and the fastest productions cars of the same era. Seeing how far technology has come, and how the modern fastest cars can beat some of the classic F1 cars, would be interesting.
Big turbos? Funny sim man? Persona 5 music? This video has it all!!
Markku Alen and Juha Kankkunen were chatting about these cars. These things were such beasts, that when they changed to group A, the cars felt so slow that in the Finnish rally they drove with one hand and waved to the crowds!
I wonder at what point did i even stop caring about car content, sometimes i feel like i'm here just for Jimmers ramblings. I love it even more when he's aware of it with those edits. I love that fellow, I really do.
Group B is really something else
Because I'm old as dirt, I remember that particular rumor from back in the day. I think I read that in a magazine article called "Death of the Killer Bee's". Thanks Jimmy, you're as cool as the other side of the pillow
Brilliant video. You really need to come up to the rally stage at Goodwood Festival of Speed, one of my favourite places. Mates do get a bit sick of me spending so much time up there lol.
Great content jimmer! I'd really love to see more of those comparison videos. Something like what is faster around Le Mans? 70s - 80s Prototypes or modern GTE. Or what is faster around an f1 track? F2 vs Indycars.
I am old enough that I actually went to both the 1984 and 1985 RAC rally stages at Chatsworth, and seeing the Group B cars was the most mind bending thing I have ever seen.
The Delta S4 F1 qualifying story probably comes from the fact that a shortened version of the circuit was used as a rally stage at, I think, the Portuguese rally in 1986...
Another idea - Donington 1993. Senna only took the outright lap record from a Peugeot Group C car on a lap he drove through the pits without stopping. It was a shortcut, and no speed limits in those days.
How close can a group C car get to an early 90s 3.5l F1 car at Donington?
Or run an f1 race on the Indianapolis oval.
Back in the 90's my dad was active in the British sprinting scene (think against the clock on major UK circuits), now at that point most of the quick boys were running things like late 80's F3000 cars with F1 engines like the 3.5l DFR. At the same events there would be a class that would cover Group B cars too, so you would get the odd one appearing from time to time.
In the dry there was no comparison, at all, the Group B wouldn't be near getting into the top 10 run offs, but....... if it was a really wet day, now there was something to behold. Formula cars tip toeing around, waiting to get the power down when they could get traction compared to a 6R4 giving it full beans on every corner. If memory serves the Group B cars times would be very close to their own dry times and they would appear very close to the top in the run offs.
It might be worth trying something similar to this video but in stinking wet conditions and see what the result is.
Things felt so magical when I was a kid, hearing stories about the good old days. I was born in 1990, so my only experiences with racing as a young’n was actually going to races. And with no internet to temper my expectations, my imagination ran wild. How I wished I could experience these legendary past eras of racing! The drivers and the cars are heroes to me. The emotion he expresses over Group B and indeed the legendary F1 cars of the same era is so damn relatable. I know exactly how you feel. It really is an emotional connection to these things. It’s special. How lucky are we to have sims now.. unbelievable.
Jimmy, greetings from Brasil.
Nice vid. I really like when you explore historical content doing things that basically can only be done in simracing now.
As a suggestion, you could explore the myth that Group C prototypes were actually faster then F1 of their era in some circumstances. Like in Silverstone, that at that time was basically a series of airplane runways connected by fast corners... This myth seems more plausible to me.
Some say that this performance felt F1 organizers fear the competition so they worked to put an end to Group C.
I saw that audi quattro doing laps around the assen circuit in the rain a couple of weeks ago, so cool to see
My therapist: Wild land cruiser isnt real he cant hurt you
Wild Land Cruiser: 9:15
I was wondering if I was going to be the first/only to comment on that.
Should try the Lancia it had a kompresor and a turbo so the power delivery was great (for the 80s) and it didn't oversteer into the corners.
huge fan of your content for some time now, as a portuguese it pleases me to see you driving in the old estoril portuguese gp :) keep up the good work
Jimmy: is playing Assetto Corsa
RUclips: yes this is Automobilista 2
Loved the new camera angles outside the car looks awesome, wanted to suggest this for a long time now ! Cool vid Jimbo !!
Loved the Persona music usage throughout the video
Another fantastic video Jimmer, perfect for a lazy Sunday evening viewing, would love to see more of these
This was very fun to watch. Keep it up Jimmer