Modern cars probably don't get the recognition they deserve because of the terrible job WRC is doing in getting people interested in the sport. Their youtube page is a joke and wrc+ costs 90 euro's per year. The highlights on Red Bull tv are decent, but people aren't really aware those exist.
Fun fact: until last year (or the year before, I forgot) there was a cheaper WRC+ plan (60 € per year) where you only got the highlights - which were exactly the same ones that Red Bull then put on their website. I guess you also got the satellite maps with a live overlay of all the car's positions, but it was still a pretty bad offer. I think at this point the FIA needs to pay TV stations to show the rally live stages and highlights.
It sucks because fewer watchers=less money= higher prices and so on. At least in Sweden they show it on the sports channels but usually only the european rallies because of time zones
spot on buddy, these current 21' cars are gonna be the fastest wrc cars for a long time since they're entering a hybrid era next year (basically wrc2 cars) with lower costs for all the cars and if they don't start promoting the series better it'll keep getting slower and slower. also american rally has the same problem, where you can only really watch ken block or subarus youtube to actually see anything longer than 3 minutes. and other motorsports are having massive peaks at the moment where rally is kinda stuck on a downwards slope.
I think a large part is also the insane technology going into the suspension these days. Group B always looks like it can bounce off course at any given moment, modern WRC look stable and confident.
@@morganwilliams2863 the group b engines and chasises are still better than the modern wrc cars. Whether people like to admit it or not. Give the group b literal modern Suspension and tyres and leave it at that the modern wrc car won't have an advantage for much longer.
@@aaaaaaaaaaa1566 It's only fair then to remove the air restrictor plates from modern WRC cars, since group B didn't have them. That's the only reason they're making 350hp instead of 600-1000+.
@@aaaaaaaaaaa1566 considering that the frames of the produduction cars of the 80s that group B cars were based on were significantly less rigid than modern cars, and considering that turbo, efi, and electronicly controlled ignition timing were still in their infancy in the 80s, I find it incredibly hard to believe that a group B car would suddenly be better than a modern WRC cars, just with modern tyres and suspension (whatever that means, since the type of suspension used is dependant on the chassis design, and switching from McPherson suspension to a multi link system for exemple would probably require hacking up, changing, and reinforcing suspension mounts, and may even require hacking up and modifying the frame itself... Changing the spring rates and dampers might help, but if the suspension architecture is an older design, and the frame much less rigid, than you can only expect so much from changing springs and shocks... Also, before you even try to argue that group b cars are somehow as rigid as, or more rigid than modern cars, just look for crashes of both some group B and some modern WRC cars, and just see which ones end up with the more mangled cockpits) As for the engines, the techology was basic, and the engines had vary little power untill the turbo kicked in towards the top of the rev range, at which the engines went from almost no air th upwards of 3 bar of boost vary quickly... This is exhilerating, yes not ideal when trying to make forward progress quickly without being put in needlessly dangerous situations... I love group B, but claiming those cars are superior "if thay just had modern tyres and suspension" is pretty absurd.
Another big influence on rally driving style was Sebastien Loeb, unlike drivers before he so rarely ever got the car sideways and instead somehow managed to drive on dirt like you would on tarmac. He used clean, tidy and efficient lines through corners rather than slinging the car in with maximum testicular fortitude and then stamping on the loud pedal and hoping for the best. The guy was basically untouchable from 2004-2012
"[...]rather than slinging the car in with maximum testicular fortitude and then stamping on the loud pedal and hoping for the best[...]" Dude you just won the internet with this one :D
@@davelangford2439 Personally I believe that Walter Rohrl is the best, he lost 10 seconds on his times because of the extra weight he was carrying with his balls while racing.
The WRC is a criminally under appreciated series. Unbelievable drivers and locations, it’s just a pity there’s so little manufacturer interest. Would love to see Renault, Peugeot, Skoda, Honda, VW and Citroen enter!
@@racerboi6957 What? DR2.0 has the best co-driver by far! His voice changes to being nervous when you are going really fast, and he even occasionally clears his throat. Definitely the most human-sounding co-driver out of all the rally games I’ve played.
This is really neat. I wish you had also used a Group A car so we'd know how much speed rally cars lost or gained right after ditching Group B. Maybe in another video?
I'll say this, group b is terrifying for the just straight brutal power they have, but newer rally cars are terrifying for the insane cornering speeds you can get out of them.
I'm sorry to say this but, It really doesn't deserve more viewers if they keep going the way they go right now. WRC has become so boring and future ain't looking any brighter.
Even Grp A ended up being faster on most stages than Grp B. I'd rather drive a Grp B monster than anything else though, you get a real sense of achievement taming them and getting a good time through a stage.. especially in DR2.0.
True. In reality Group B cars were probably quite a bit slower than how they're presented in games. Games probably use bloated values when it comes to engine perfomance. They had to tune engines down back then. Rallyes and stages were very long. Rallying was more like endurance racing than sprint racing like it is today. Besides that, it's hard to accurately simulate the differences between modern and classic chassis and suspension. There's also the playability aspect. It's probably better to give players Group B cars which are insane but enjoyable rather than just frustratingly hard to drive fast.
I'm a Group A fan, but then again that's the era I watched. McRae, Makinen, Sainz, Auriol, Kankkunen, you get the gist. And it's a nice middle ground between the manual experience Group B gives you and the controllability of modern cars. I revere group B same as any other rally fan but to me they were always just this terrible idea from yesteryear that's more fun to think about or watch than actually drive
Makes sense that the modern car would get a faster time. The Group B car is power and performance without a platform that can truly make the most of it, so a lot of that power goes to waste. The modern car has amazing handling, grip and suspension, so even if it has less power to work with, it puts it all to good use.
Yes,V12 F1 Ferrari is just insane great sounding machine,who cares when modern ones are faster and have hybrid system?? Same happend to old rally cars they are just - better -.
You know, I've got a perfectly decent Sim-Rig just feet away from me, & I haven't raced in nearly a year, I still love cars and racing, I just haven't been able to bring myself to sit at the wheel. I know it aint really relevant, I just felt this was a place I could confess & get it off my chest.
Hey sometimes it goes like that it will come back eventually and if it doesnt jsut force yourself to try and get back to it, if it doesnt work you might have lost interest on racing :(
I had made a break from sim racing for more than a year too, and in a month it will be a year of being consistently back at it. Sometimes you just burn out, but if you say you still love cars and racing, the day you sit at the wheel will come. The worst think you can do is selling it or stashing it in some basement. Keep it close, keep it running and the day will come!
The worst thing about taking a long break is the amount of work you need to put in to shake the rust off. I wouldn't feel too bad about not using your rig. Interests wax and wane for some people. I was never the kind of person that just chose one thing and did it forever. You'll get hooked on it again at some point, and then it won't feel like work getting back up to speed.
dont feel bad. most youtubers dedicate thier lives to a single hobby and never deviate from that on thier channels, and that makes it seem like your foresaking that particular thing. like the person above says most peoples interest and investment is gonna wane at some point. its natural dont worry about it.
I'm in the same boat brother. I've got a full 80/20 rig with triple 27's and VR if I want it and just don't have the passion. And, ironically, every time I say "I'm gonna go in there and do some racing!" ... it's week 13. Happened 4 times.
Nice video. Totally agreed that modern WRC deserves so so much bigger a following than it has. It's so entertaining to watch, and it always makes me sad to see coverage get so few views
For me it's sad there aren't too many options where to watch WRC. Last time when was possible to watch it in TV was in 2018, no option too see anything in my native language (no big problem for me, but some peoples don't know english language), also WRC+ seems too expensive for me, ofc there is option for free shorts but you spend more time for searching than watching....
3 days every month for almost the entire day WRC streams and its always a blast to watch the suspense and seconds between drivers after every stage you end up rooting for every driver (my opinion its the best Motor-sport)
I remember a stream weeks before, some guy called jim or whatever said he feels like he can't make good video. Watch and learn from this guy, this is how you make proper sim racing content.
yeah, i didn't even know group s existed until ken block drove that weird audi spaceship, but from his response to driving one, i'd love to see jimmy take that on as well.
Seat Ibiza group S car with two fucking engines its like they were asked “should this project be mid engine or front engined?” and they responded with _”yes”_
I love rally so much that I've built I don't even know how many rally cars from the late 60's right up to the modern day on Automation. The current record holder on my lap board is my idea of a prototype electric WRC car, with a 1:42.17 on the rally stage, followed shortly thereafter by my WRX car with a 1:43.65. To put those in perspective, the Cherrier Vivace rally car in base BeamNG got a 1:47.57, and my fastest Group B car got only a 1:55.30. Modern rally cars are fast.
I do love the group b cars but seeing modern rally cars on maximum attack, especially tarmac mountain rallys, is absolutely wild. I'd encourage everyone to check out whatever rallys happen in their country or area as you'll see some unbelievable driving and most privateers run the modern hyundais, fiestas etc
As I see it, modern WRC doesn't have so much appreciation because those cars have nothing in common with real road-legal cars, they are prototypes. They are all the same basically. It would be great to make the regulations less restricted and add homologation road-legal cars.
I agree. I wrote in my own comment that current WRC cars glide thru the stages. It's weird to watch. Everything is super smooth, and then a big moment comes out of nowhere and it's jarring as hell. Whenever I look at even a clip of group B, there is constant tension, making it more fun to watch. It's why I watch more rallycross now; there is consistent drama with overtakes and rivalries, instead of smooth drives punctuated by near-death crashes that smack you right in the brain.
@@TheDrLeviathan Yah, it's more fun to watch guys and gals trying to no hit spectators and bin it (which could result in a fiery death), the modern WRC with their supreme safety standards aren't your thing. You like to see people get hurt eh ?
I think you people just not like motorsport. I see these stupid comments on every video. Modern consumer cars are made to be as cheap as possible. That does not provide safe or close racing. It provides break downs, inconsistency , and injury.
@@DomHowardsFluoPants that's not even remotely correct. It's actually really messed up to see Ott Tanak doing really well, everything looking fine at Monte Carlo, then the next second he is end over end off the road and cut a tree in half. Or Lappi that same year looking fine, then his car burns to cinders, and then they try to interview him in front of it. Neuville also doesn't have faith the cars next year are safe, he said it in an interview. What are you on about.
Love this game, but I gotta say -- I'm finnish and those stages do not look like Finland at all :D The houses are wrong, the nature is wrong. I mean, it kinda resembles finnish countryside in like a fever dream like way.
They special stage selection had "Laukka" which looks totally different compared to the the real "Laukaa". Plus I think I saw a huge lighthouse in the special stage, not a lot of those in Central Finland.
I mean this is probably the best thing about group b and why it was so epic Double the power of wrc and less than half of suspension and brake technology.... But still the drivers managed to rush these killer machines on every surface... Only the best and bravest rallydrivers that ever existed
Love the rally videos! You’re great and hilarious at the same time I can’t barely make it thought some of the stages and you’re over here looking at chat and talking while driving the wheels off it’s great
Almost 30 years of technological advancements, R&D on suspension and chassis work, and every other tool and assistance given to the driver of a newer cars. I expect, in the hands of most people, the newer car to prevail. If you give, however, a 205T16 to a madman with an unreal set of skills and a lack of fear for his life, I don't think the newer cars stand a chance.
Modern cars lack any "tools and assistances" such as ABS, traction control, etc., as they have been banned a long time ago. Clutch-less shifting and anti-lag systems are the only assistances there. On the other hand, any Group B car stands no chance against modern WRC or Rally1 cars, no matter how hard such a skilled and fearless driver might try. This is easy to know: most of all that power was useless as the suspensions, tires, differentials, and chassis were orders of magnitude less efficient than today's, resulting in mere wheel-spin rather than in traction to propel the cars mid-corner. In other words: the modern things would single-handedly bitch-slap the old cars in Every. Single. Aspect. For empirical evidence, go have a look at the ranks of proper simulators like Richard Burns Rally with NGP7 physics, and see compare the times that the most skilled drivers achieved with both Group B and WRC cars. Hell, even compare the B's with those 280hp R5 cars - they're usually as fast, even faster at times!
@G T Let me introduce you to the Lancia Delta S4 - a supercharger and a turbo charger linked by a clutch which disengaged the blower when the turbo spooled up. 650 hp in a 900 kg chassis with no turbo lag (just insane complexity).
One of the things that really jumps to mind with the 205 for me my parents had one and I grew up in the backseat of it. It just feels like a normal car to me, yet it goes on trails I'd nether have trusted to go slowly on, at speeds that aren't even legal on the fastest highways (well in France anyways). That's the contrast that makes Bs insane to me. Whereas WRC cars look like spaceships and it almost makes sense for them to be driven in such extreme conditions.
If we really put the same modern tires on Group B cars (which I think is the case in DR2.0) they will have a very high theoretical limit; but the modern cars get the better diffs/suspension/paddle shifters and huge downforce (not even reaching 200kph with 380+hp) which I believe will make them faster in places like Finland.
Modern WRC cars are best from roadside cameras; you get a bit more of an appreciation for how much speed they carry. And the one thing that is universal is really cars always sound really, really angry. They make a glorious noise.
Jimmy, how does the handling of this game compare to Dirt Rally 2.0 - curious to see how the game is now that codies have control over it? Future video maybe?
I think one of the reasons the modern cars don't capture the imagination so much despite being awesome machines is that they're all very samey. If you lined up all the Group B cars you couldn't identify a common design philosophy between them. Modern cars are all small hatchbacks that vary very little. There's nothing that an 8 year old would want on their bedroom wall.
that description of the turbo lag is literally the exact thing that happens to me in beamng when i boost the hell out of a tiny engine. "Where's the power?" *turbo catches up* "BRAAAAAAKES!" *meets another rock and tree*
i think that the wrc 2021 car will be faster. it will have trouble keeping up with acceleration of the peugeot, but top speed should be similar in these long straights. the slow section is where the modern car will get ahead
the era of WRC 2021 towards the end of the rally at Finland and Catalunya and Monza , The FIA did an aerodynamic regulations update with a lot less restrictions, which then allowed the manufacturers to upgrade their aerodynamics , and it was amazing especially with the Toyota in tarmac spec, and in my opinion it was like Group B back again I wish we could have one more season of this Golden era ~1997 - 2021 the new Rally1 era will be with a lot less aerodynamics but hopefully it will be as fun, demanding, drama, and fast
I think Group B could even beat modern ones with perfect driving in a single stage. But rally is all about consistent clean driving, so a WRC would probably win.
"Group B is just an enginge with a big turbo strapped to a chassi" Thats why theyre so fun! No electronics, nothing to help you or save you, just you and a monster under the hood eager to be let loose! The new ones are easier to drive and are faster, but it's just a little too easy. Plus, Group B is motorsport history, thanks to those dudes we got more safety in rally, we got 4 wheel drives, and a lot of safety systems in our cars thanks to Group B. It was a wonderful and crazy time, driving these legendary vehicles in a game is just superb
Makes me wish there was a modern high performance rear wheel drive class, the builders making wild stuff before all wheel drive became the standard did amazing work!
I recall the speed of technological progress was such that the Group A rally cars were at minimum on pace with Group B by 1990 and by the time the 38mm turbo inlet restrictors came around in 1992 they were faster than the Group B rally cars everywhere but a few very high speed exceptions.
Just one note I'd like to make is that you can actually work around the turbo-lag in the group B's and can A LOT of time by staying on the throttle when braking. How much? Just enough to keep the turbo spooled. This is what the group B drivers used to do back in the day and was just one of the MANY reasons driving a group B car was such a massive handfull of a hassle. Which is also one of the reasons the group B cars are so beloved, they were NUTS!
I remember watching Group B in 1984-86 on Eurosport on Friday eve‘s. That was the biggest I‘ve ever seen in Motorsport. Even better than F1 in those days
I remember catching a group B event being televised here in the US around that time. That was my first exposure to WRC. It's a shame more of those races weren't shown in the US at that time.
If you want to go fast thru the corners or under 5000 rpm then you have to keep your foot on the brake to keep the turbo flowing well thats what i heard from driver 61 i think
Hey Jimmy! I have a tip for driving those group B cars, if you do ninety percent of your braking for the corner and then halfway press the gas, you can get the turbo spooled for when you’ve gotten pointed in the right direction. I’d love for you to try it again with this advice!
Not only 550bhp but using an H shifter and a clutch with only 5 gears to control it which means you're only controlling the car with one hand half the time. Hero's.
Having worked on both kinds of car the Audi was almost like a parts bin car, very brutal setup whereas the more modern form of car has a sort of package setup, everything works with everything else it’s super hard to get your head around but the engineering is just unreal.
For those who don't know, Group B Rally cars were basically a genre of the rally where car manufacturers and designers had free reign over the car with little to no restrictions. This meant that the cars being raced in Group B were extremely fast and very unsafe, causing Group B to be shut down due to lots of injuries and a few deaths.
WRC finally came to my country last year and I was a marshall again for my home race as I've been doing for a few years. I got to go watch on Friday and do a TC IN for a stage on Saturday. The 21 WRCs were just insanely fast. Especially in the corners but off the line as well. And of course group B cars got beaten not all that long into group A either. Improvements in tires and suspension etc. At least here in Ypres the first gen Impreza was already faster than the Group Bs.
Imagine if WRC makes the return of group B regulations (nearly no holds barred, evo clause) for a special class, like how Le Mans have the Hypercar Class but still having at least a good safety rules to prevent disasters.
Great example, but looking at the leader boards it also painted a whole different picture. Group B leader was over 25sec faster in the same car which means that it was also 17sec faster time than the modern car. Of course with new technology it becomes easier to drive fast, but to drive to the full potential of the car is a whole different thing. The fasters time for the same modern car was around 15sec quicker than the fastest time for the Group B car so not that huge difference, which sums up well the skill of the driver and capability of the car.
Started off very confused as you said you were playing WRC10, but in the description it says you're playing Dirt Rally 2.0, but whatever game it is, I love the video you've created. Yes, as you said Jimmy, exactly the result we all expected. And yet, also as you pointed out, amazing to see the difference in philosophy between the two generations. I can remember being in Sutton Park, Sutton Coldfield, Birmingham watching the WRC come through in the late 70's (so a bit before the time of the Group B monsters) and being in awe of the speed & noise of the cars. So trying to multiply that in my mind to what it must have been like when the Group B cars were in full flight boggles the mind. Unfortunately we moved out of Sutton Coldfield at the end of '82 / start of '83 so even if they were still running through Sutton Park after that I wasn't around to be able to watch it anyway. So, although we all expected the result you got (though I was surprised that it was 8 seconds, but I wonder how much of that was the fact that you "knew" the route a little better with the WRC than you did when you ran the T16 ??) but even allowing for that "better knowledge" the WRC would still have been WAY faster than the Group B. One question I have though :- "Is the T16 the fastest (on that particular stage) of the Group B cars ?" Would you be willing to do a run with EACH of the Group B's to see if any of them are faster & if so by how much & then redo the "test" ????
I understand that modern WRC cars are more advanced and easier to control. But groupB drivers were real drivers to control those monsters on 4 wheels. Much respect.
Wrc is brilliant, I got me a subscription the past few years to watch. I miss Subaru, Mitsubishi, and Peugeot days though, we need more manufacturers in the sport.
with the first group b car, the drivers were told to left foot brake to counteract the turbo lag and it wasn't a H pattern gearbox, they used a semi automatic.
Damn, had this on the background and took a look at 9:25 and was very very confused about the engine graph on the screen before i realized what it acctually was :D
This is why i love racing lower powered cars more than higher powered cars. You can just throw them into a corner and they're just like "meh" and take it
Modern cars probably don't get the recognition they deserve because of the terrible job WRC is doing in getting people interested in the sport. Their youtube page is a joke and wrc+ costs 90 euro's per year. The highlights on Red Bull tv are decent, but people aren't really aware those exist.
Fun fact: until last year (or the year before, I forgot) there was a cheaper WRC+ plan (60 € per year) where you only got the highlights - which were exactly the same ones that Red Bull then put on their website. I guess you also got the satellite maps with a live overlay of all the car's positions, but it was still a pretty bad offer.
I think at this point the FIA needs to pay TV stations to show the rally live stages and highlights.
It sucks because fewer watchers=less money= higher prices and so on. At least in Sweden they show it on the sports channels but usually only the european rallies because of time zones
spot on buddy, these current 21' cars are gonna be the fastest wrc cars for a long time since they're entering a hybrid era next year (basically wrc2 cars) with lower costs for all the cars and if they don't start promoting the series better it'll keep getting slower and slower. also american rally has the same problem, where you can only really watch ken block or subarus youtube to actually see anything longer than 3 minutes. and other motorsports are having massive peaks at the moment where rally is kinda stuck on a downwards slope.
Yeah Rally on TV is not really fun to watch honestly... and watching it IRL is a bit complicated with the security rules and such.
the problem is, they get less viewers, which means less funding, which means less viewers and it goes on and on
I think a large part is also the insane technology going into the suspension these days. Group B always looks like it can bounce off course at any given moment, modern WRC look stable and confident.
Give the group b car the modern tyres and modern suspension it would eat the modern wrc cars for dust.
@@morganwilliams2863 the group b engines and chasises are still better than the modern wrc cars. Whether people like to admit it or not. Give the group b literal modern Suspension and tyres and leave it at that the modern wrc car won't have an advantage for much longer.
@@aaaaaaaaaaa1566 It's only fair then to remove the air restrictor plates from modern WRC cars, since group B didn't have them. That's the only reason they're making 350hp instead of 600-1000+.
@@aaaaaaaaaaa1566 If you do so, they would not be Group B cars anyway.
@@aaaaaaaaaaa1566 considering that the frames of the produduction cars of the 80s that group B cars were based on were significantly less rigid than modern cars, and considering that turbo, efi, and electronicly controlled ignition timing were still in their infancy in the 80s, I find it incredibly hard to believe that a group B car would suddenly be better than a modern WRC cars, just with modern tyres and suspension (whatever that means, since the type of suspension used is dependant on the chassis design, and switching from McPherson suspension to a multi link system for exemple would probably require hacking up, changing, and reinforcing suspension mounts, and may even require hacking up and modifying the frame itself... Changing the spring rates and dampers might help, but if the suspension architecture is an older design, and the frame much less rigid, than you can only expect so much from changing springs and shocks... Also, before you even try to argue that group b cars are somehow as rigid as, or more rigid than modern cars, just look for crashes of both some group B and some modern WRC cars, and just see which ones end up with the more mangled cockpits)
As for the engines, the techology was basic, and the engines had vary little power untill the turbo kicked in towards the top of the rev range, at which the engines went from almost no air th upwards of 3 bar of boost vary quickly... This is exhilerating, yes not ideal when trying to make forward progress quickly without being put in needlessly dangerous situations...
I love group B, but claiming those cars are superior "if thay just had modern tyres and suspension" is pretty absurd.
I read as: "can a 30-year old keep up with a Group B car" - A whole series of videos to be made to watch us slowly crumble
I didn’t think I would see you here
love your vids mate!
Can you ask Jimmer to play Rally Trophy so that he can drive the Mighty Brown Saab for himself?
The Legend has shown...The GP Legend even! @_@
30 year-old T H I C C B R I T throws petite 40 year old French beauty around in Finnish forest
06:45 In the actual group B from the past, this is where you just killed 40 people.
100%, there would be at least 100 people there and more than half wouldn't have gotten out of the way in time for sure
The ultimate in spectator dedication, living on the edge.
If any part fell off that vehicle its a snatch fest.
What you meant to say is "If that were real life, you would take Toivonen's place in group b history and ended it"
@@Cynsham In this timeline Toivonen would still be alive! :)
Another big influence on rally driving style was Sebastien Loeb, unlike drivers before he so rarely ever got the car sideways and instead somehow managed to drive on dirt like you would on tarmac. He used clean, tidy and efficient lines through corners rather than slinging the car in with maximum testicular fortitude and then stamping on the loud pedal and hoping for the best. The guy was basically untouchable from 2004-2012
"[...]rather than slinging the car in with maximum testicular fortitude and then stamping on the loud pedal and hoping for the best[...]" Dude you just won the internet with this one :D
From "maximum testicular fortitude" to "hoping for the best" is the single best sentence I've ever read
Loeb is still the greatest all-round driver in the world in my opinion. The guy is incredible. 9 consecutive WRC titles is beyond impressive.
@@davelangford2439 Personally I believe that Walter Rohrl is the best, he lost 10 seconds on his times because of the extra weight he was carrying with his balls while racing.
@@sparkster_6087 🙄
I love this series where your comparing different cars is so fun to watch
I swear any rally series of his is just so good
It’s*
Will McLaughlin ??
The WRC is a criminally under appreciated series. Unbelievable drivers and locations, it’s just a pity there’s so little manufacturer interest. Would love to see Renault, Peugeot, Skoda, Honda, VW and Citroen enter!
Seat, DS and Volvo
I completely agree WRC is such a underrated motorsport it should as famous as F1
And the dolts at WRC & FIA do zero marketing or promotion for the sport, and then proceed to scratch their heads and wonder why nobody is interested
Honda? Did Honda every do rally with cars?
@@benedux i20 rally
Jimmy did an intentional sbinalla to get to 4:20
Co-driver becoming a rap god...
haha, that's a good one!
XD that was such an tasty joke😂👌
Holy shit my favourite top 10 car youtuber watches jimmy
That would be an epic rap battle: Co-driver vs. Auctioneer
The codriver reacting to massive air is a nice touch.
yeah 100% the one in dirt rally 2.0 feels a little too robotic for me
Although, after the massive air shouldn't he be shouting "Massive ass!!". It would be in keeping with the theme.
@@racerboi6957 Phil can't be bothered.
@@racerboi6957 What? DR2.0 has the best co-driver by far! His voice changes to being nervous when you are going really fast, and he even occasionally clears his throat. Definitely the most human-sounding co-driver out of all the rally games I’ve played.
This is really neat. I wish you had also used a Group A car so we'd know how much speed rally cars lost or gained right after ditching Group B. Maybe in another video?
I think using the lancia deltas (gr b and gr a) would be an interesting comparison
I'll say this, group b is terrifying for the just straight brutal power they have, but newer rally cars are terrifying for the insane cornering speeds you can get out of them.
The WRC today deserves way more viewers, it’s sad how much it has fallen
More or less..
They do a poor job of promoting the sport... I haven't even been able to FIND WRC coverage on my cable TV since what, the 2017 season?
@@scottl.1568 You can watch all the stages in Wrc app
@@valmarifoto doesn't help with promotion, never ever seen ads or campaigns promoting the sport.
I'm sorry to say this but, It really doesn't deserve more viewers if they keep going the way they go right now. WRC has become so boring and future ain't looking any brighter.
I'm a Finn, and I can say your pronunciation of Pihlajakoski was ALMOST perfect
I just call it "Dave"
pi laza koski.. wasn’t that close lmao
@@HENAEZ it's a joke
Terve. En oo ainoa suomalainen 😂
Well, the koski part was pronounced pretty much perfectly. Can't really say the same about Pihlaja part though.
Even Grp A ended up being faster on most stages than Grp B. I'd rather drive a Grp B monster than anything else though, you get a real sense of achievement taming them and getting a good time through a stage.. especially in DR2.0.
True. In reality Group B cars were probably quite a bit slower than how they're presented in games. Games probably use bloated values when it comes to engine perfomance. They had to tune engines down back then. Rallyes and stages were very long. Rallying was more like endurance racing than sprint racing like it is today. Besides that, it's hard to accurately simulate the differences between modern and classic chassis and suspension. There's also the playability aspect. It's probably better to give players Group B cars which are insane but enjoyable rather than just frustratingly hard to drive fast.
I'm a Group A fan, but then again that's the era I watched. McRae, Makinen, Sainz, Auriol, Kankkunen, you get the gist. And it's a nice middle ground between the manual experience Group B gives you and the controllability of modern cars. I revere group B same as any other rally fan but to me they were always just this terrible idea from yesteryear that's more fun to think about or watch than actually drive
Now you making me want to try out the Group A cars
@@CobraAce04 Could you imagine Group S if it went ahead. They would have been insane/ Proper F1 cars for the dirt
@@ellasOLE22 current WRC cars is what group S could've been
Makes sense that the modern car would get a faster time. The Group B car is power and performance without a platform that can truly make the most of it, so a lot of that power goes to waste. The modern car has amazing handling, grip and suspension, so even if it has less power to work with, it puts it all to good use.
the V12 F1 car analogy perfectly sums up the love for group B. some people just don't want to change their opinion
Yes,V12 F1 Ferrari is just insane great sounding machine,who cares when modern ones are faster and have hybrid system??
Same happend to old rally cars they are just - better -.
Who cares about new cringe fast thing when can have unhinged brutal old thing is personally my favorite line of thought
You know, I've got a perfectly decent Sim-Rig just feet away from me, & I haven't raced in nearly a year, I still love cars and racing, I just haven't been able to bring myself to sit at the wheel. I know it aint really relevant, I just felt this was a place I could confess & get it off my chest.
Hey sometimes it goes like that it will come back eventually and if it doesnt jsut force yourself to try and get back to it, if it doesnt work you might have lost interest on racing :(
I had made a break from sim racing for more than a year too, and in a month it will be a year of being consistently back at it. Sometimes you just burn out, but if you say you still love cars and racing, the day you sit at the wheel will come. The worst think you can do is selling it or stashing it in some basement. Keep it close, keep it running and the day will come!
The worst thing about taking a long break is the amount of work you need to put in to shake the rust off.
I wouldn't feel too bad about not using your rig. Interests wax and wane for some people. I was never the kind of person that just chose one thing and did it forever. You'll get hooked on it again at some point, and then it won't feel like work getting back up to speed.
dont feel bad. most youtubers dedicate thier lives to a single hobby and never deviate from that on thier channels, and that makes it seem like your foresaking that particular thing. like the person above says most peoples interest and investment is gonna wane at some point. its natural dont worry about it.
I'm in the same boat brother. I've got a full 80/20 rig with triple 27's and VR if I want it and just don't have the passion. And, ironically, every time I say "I'm gonna go in there and do some racing!" ... it's week 13. Happened 4 times.
Nice video. Totally agreed that modern WRC deserves so so much bigger a following than it has. It's so entertaining to watch, and it always makes me sad to see coverage get so few views
For me it's sad there aren't too many options where to watch WRC. Last time when was possible to watch it in TV was in 2018, no option too see anything in my native language (no big problem for me, but some peoples don't know english language), also WRC+ seems too expensive for me, ofc there is option for free shorts but you spend more time for searching than watching....
3 days every month for almost the entire day WRC streams and its always a blast to watch the suspense and seconds between drivers after every stage you end up rooting for every driver (my opinion its the best Motor-sport)
i love the rally binge! i was sick of seeing the quattro though, im so glad to see a different group B car!!! theyre all rad as hell
I remember a stream weeks before, some guy called jim or whatever said he feels like he can't make good video.
Watch and learn from this guy, this is how you make proper sim racing content.
14:58 I think it’s because people don’t really notice that it was good until it’s gone
I'd love to see a modded Nurburgring that's a gravel surface. For non tarmac specialists of course.
You need to become the fastest Jim in the world on every stage
We need to get Jimmy in a group s car STAT I wanna see him freak weather it's a FC RX-7 or a Toyota MR2 that 4WD and makes crazy power
yeah, i didn't even know group s existed until ken block drove that weird audi spaceship, but from his response to driving one, i'd love to see jimmy take that on as well.
Seat Ibiza group S car with two fucking engines
its like they were asked “should this project be mid engine or front engined?” and they responded with _”yes”_
I love rally so much that I've built I don't even know how many rally cars from the late 60's right up to the modern day on Automation. The current record holder on my lap board is my idea of a prototype electric WRC car, with a 1:42.17 on the rally stage, followed shortly thereafter by my WRX car with a 1:43.65. To put those in perspective, the Cherrier Vivace rally car in base BeamNG got a 1:47.57, and my fastest Group B car got only a 1:55.30. Modern rally cars are fast.
I do love the group b cars but seeing modern rally cars on maximum attack, especially tarmac mountain rallys, is absolutely wild. I'd encourage everyone to check out whatever rallys happen in their country or area as you'll see some unbelievable driving and most privateers run the modern hyundais, fiestas etc
Thank you for calling out the poorly detailed car models. I too was surprised at their level of detailing for a fully licenced 2021 game.
what if we put a group b engine in a modern rally chassis, with all the aero and stuff ? it would be an interesting video
Imagine rallycross with turbo lag, and you have it.
peak power vs wide power band.
Group B had a lot of power at their peak, but nothing else down low
Just take the restrictor off the modern engine. RallyX cars push 650hp.
Nearly all modern race cars are just restricted...
@@danesebruno Let me introduce you to Lancia 037 and Delta S4
That “driving along put your foot down ah this is nice- AH FACK” was just amazing 😂
As I see it, modern WRC doesn't have so much appreciation because those cars have nothing in common with real road-legal cars, they are prototypes. They are all the same basically. It would be great to make the regulations less restricted and add homologation road-legal cars.
Everyone went nuts about the gr yaris Toyota released, I think there is definitely a market for homologation cars
I agree. I wrote in my own comment that current WRC cars glide thru the stages. It's weird to watch. Everything is super smooth, and then a big moment comes out of nowhere and it's jarring as hell. Whenever I look at even a clip of group B, there is constant tension, making it more fun to watch. It's why I watch more rallycross now; there is consistent drama with overtakes and rivalries, instead of smooth drives punctuated by near-death crashes that smack you right in the brain.
@@TheDrLeviathan Yah, it's more fun to watch guys and gals trying to no hit spectators and bin it (which could result in a fiery death), the modern WRC with their supreme safety standards aren't your thing. You like to see people get hurt eh ?
I think you people just not like motorsport.
I see these stupid comments on every video.
Modern consumer cars are made to be as cheap as possible. That does not provide safe or close racing. It provides break downs, inconsistency , and injury.
@@DomHowardsFluoPants that's not even remotely correct. It's actually really messed up to see Ott Tanak doing really well, everything looking fine at Monte Carlo, then the next second he is end over end off the road and cut a tree in half. Or Lappi that same year looking fine, then his car burns to cinders, and then they try to interview him in front of it. Neuville also doesn't have faith the cars next year are safe, he said it in an interview.
What are you on about.
Co driver becoming a rap god. Lmao 😂 11:10
That estonian guy number 15th on the list was very inventive with his name hahaha at 14:20 ppl are better off not knowing our language
Lmao. This is exactly what it feels like to be Estonian nowadays.
As a Finn I can fully recognize the word "perse". In Finnish it means "ass" :D
Love this game, but I gotta say -- I'm finnish and those stages do not look like Finland at all :D The houses are wrong, the nature is wrong. I mean, it kinda resembles finnish countryside in like a fever dream like way.
They special stage selection had "Laukka" which looks totally different compared to the the real "Laukaa". Plus I think I saw a huge lighthouse in the special stage, not a lot of those in Central Finland.
Yeah, way too many trees. You typically see only 2-3 trees per stage.
I mean this is probably the best thing about group b and why it was so epic
Double the power of wrc and less than half of suspension and brake technology.... But still the drivers managed to rush these killer machines on every surface... Only the best and bravest rallydrivers that ever existed
The real question is would you trust jimmer enough to be his co-driver. He needs a new one that doesn’t die every jump 😂
2:54
That Rally stage is called Bwoah!
"U might know it.... Of course u fcking know it"
I'm dying 🤣🤣
Love the rally videos! You’re great and hilarious at the same time I can’t barely make it thought some of the stages and you’re over here looking at chat and talking while driving the wheels off it’s great
Almost 30 years of technological advancements, R&D on suspension and chassis work, and every other tool and assistance given to the driver of a newer cars. I expect, in the hands of most people, the newer car to prevail.
If you give, however, a 205T16 to a madman with an unreal set of skills and a lack of fear for his life, I don't think the newer cars stand a chance.
In most cases the modern WRC car would win very easily
Modern cars lack any "tools and assistances" such as ABS, traction control, etc., as they have been banned a long time ago. Clutch-less shifting and anti-lag systems are the only assistances there. On the other hand, any Group B car stands no chance against modern WRC or Rally1 cars, no matter how hard such a skilled and fearless driver might try. This is easy to know: most of all that power was useless as the suspensions, tires, differentials, and chassis were orders of magnitude less efficient than today's, resulting in mere wheel-spin rather than in traction to propel the cars mid-corner. In other words: the modern things would single-handedly bitch-slap the old cars in Every. Single. Aspect. For empirical evidence, go have a look at the ranks of proper simulators like Richard Burns Rally with NGP7 physics, and see compare the times that the most skilled drivers achieved with both Group B and WRC cars. Hell, even compare the B's with those 280hp R5 cars - they're usually as fast, even faster at times!
@G T Let me introduce you to the Lancia Delta S4 - a supercharger and a turbo charger linked by a clutch which disengaged the blower when the turbo spooled up. 650 hp in a 900 kg chassis with no turbo lag (just insane complexity).
Over 30 years* n almost 40 🙂
The I20 may have won the race, but the 205 T16 won my heart. You go old girl, you go make big turbo noises and make us happy!
4:33-4:43 I can't be the only one who found it hilarious how the co driver is being a "little bitch" right after Jimmy tells him not to.
One of the things that really jumps to mind with the 205 for me my parents had one and I grew up in the backseat of it.
It just feels like a normal car to me, yet it goes on trails I'd nether have trusted to go slowly on, at speeds that aren't even legal on the fastest highways (well in France anyways).
That's the contrast that makes Bs insane to me. Whereas WRC cars look like spaceships and it almost makes sense for them to be driven in such extreme conditions.
I assume they had a normal front engine FWD one?
If we really put the same modern tires on Group B cars (which I think is the case in DR2.0) they will have a very high theoretical limit; but the modern cars get the better diffs/suspension/paddle shifters and huge downforce (not even reaching 200kph with 380+hp) which I believe will make them faster in places like Finland.
Modern WRC cars are best from roadside cameras; you get a bit more of an appreciation for how much speed they carry. And the one thing that is universal is really cars always sound really, really angry. They make a glorious noise.
This video had the golden age of rally cars and group b cars in the same video. Nice!
The co-driver grunting gives me some serious Marcus Grönholm co-driver vibes. Poor Timo
Stone came?
Jimmy, how does the handling of this game compare to Dirt Rally 2.0 - curious to see how the game is now that codies have control over it? Future video maybe?
I definitely enjoy driving the older cars more because they're so much more... raw. There is a terror there that is hard to replicate.
Depends on tree density
I remember being a spectator on a group B night stage - absolutely terrifying and thrilling at the same time.
Why don't you never select a Lancia Delta S4 Jimmer?
to be so much older the group B really keeps up quite well!
I think one of the reasons the modern cars don't capture the imagination so much despite being awesome machines is that they're all very samey. If you lined up all the Group B cars you couldn't identify a common design philosophy between them. Modern cars are all small hatchbacks that vary very little. There's nothing that an 8 year old would want on their bedroom wall.
Yeah exactly! An i20 or a Yaris just really doesn't appeal to me the way an Impreza or a Stratos does.
Jimmy you hardly ever drive the lancia group B cars? Like a video with the rwd 037 would be proper entertainment
that description of the turbo lag is literally the exact thing that happens to me in beamng when i boost the hell out of a tiny engine. "Where's the power?" *turbo catches up* "BRAAAAAAKES!" *meets another rock and tree*
i think that the wrc 2021 car will be faster. it will have trouble keeping up with acceleration of the peugeot, but top speed should be similar in these long straights. the slow section is where the modern car will get ahead
the era of WRC 2021 towards the end of the rally at Finland and Catalunya and Monza , The FIA did an aerodynamic regulations update with a lot less restrictions, which then allowed the manufacturers to upgrade their aerodynamics , and it was amazing especially with the Toyota in tarmac spec, and in my opinion it was like Group B back again
I wish we could have one more season of this Golden era ~1997 - 2021
the new Rally1 era will be with a lot less aerodynamics but hopefully it will be as fun, demanding, drama, and fast
I think Group B could even beat modern ones with perfect driving in a single stage. But rally is all about consistent clean driving, so a WRC would probably win.
"Group B is just an enginge with a big turbo strapped to a chassi"
Thats why theyre so fun! No electronics, nothing to help you or save you, just you and a monster under the hood eager to be let loose! The new ones are easier to drive and are faster, but it's just a little too easy. Plus, Group B is motorsport history, thanks to those dudes we got more safety in rally, we got 4 wheel drives, and a lot of safety systems in our cars thanks to Group B. It was a wonderful and crazy time, driving these legendary vehicles in a game is just superb
At what point in time did the “modern” of the time car get faster then group B.. a new series? ;)
Group A actually already started to beat Group B times soon after the class' demise, so not that long tbh.
Makes me wish there was a modern high performance rear wheel drive class, the builders making wild stuff before all wheel drive became the standard did amazing work!
Me too. It'd get banned though. It's dangerous, but I feel that the drivers and spectators know what they're getting into
Weren't Group B cars already struggling to keep up with the Group A cars?
Only on cornering tracks if he took it to Poland the t16 would prob win because of top speed
@@TinyBearTim Not just the cornering; anything with crests, dips and jumps... Not just the raw performance but also durability
@@jonathanlim9219 Hence the helos to keep these things running
not even close
I recall the speed of technological progress was such that the Group A rally cars were at minimum on pace with Group B by 1990 and by the time the 38mm turbo inlet restrictors came around in 1992 they were faster than the Group B rally cars everywhere but a few very high speed exceptions.
Just one note I'd like to make is that you can actually work around the turbo-lag in the group B's and can A LOT of time by staying on the throttle when braking. How much? Just enough to keep the turbo spooled. This is what the group B drivers used to do back in the day and was just one of the MANY reasons driving a group B car was such a massive handfull of a hassle. Which is also one of the reasons the group B cars are so beloved, they were NUTS!
HYUNDAI RHYMES WITH SUNDAY
Not in British English
I thought it was "Hyoon-Day" but you don't elongate the oo part. which doesn't really rhyme with Sunday
No it doesn't
Yeah. It doesn't. Hi - Oon - die
I remember watching Group B in 1984-86 on Eurosport on Friday eve‘s. That was the biggest I‘ve ever seen in Motorsport. Even better than F1 in those days
I remember catching a group B event being televised here in the US around that time. That was my first exposure to WRC. It's a shame more of those races weren't shown in the US at that time.
Box gang 😳
those sophisticated extras is what eats away at drivers skill and bravery
Notification Gang
nobody cares
I care
@@jacobthefiend I care
@@jacobthefiend why
If you want to go fast thru the corners or under 5000 rpm then you have to keep your foot on the brake to keep the turbo flowing well thats what i heard from driver 61 i think
6:39
jimmy: "its about how much bravery do you have"
codriver: "ouch"
8:25 "It always feels like you're going to have an accident" Yup, that's group b in a nut shell. Death on wheels with 2 pairs of balls of steel.
Hey Jimmy! I have a tip for driving those group B cars, if you do ninety percent of your braking for the corner and then halfway press the gas, you can get the turbo spooled for when you’ve gotten pointed in the right direction. I’d love for you to try it again with this advice!
Not only 550bhp but using an H shifter and a clutch with only 5 gears to control it which means you're only controlling the car with one hand half the time. Hero's.
"Co-driver becoming rap god". One of the best single comments I've ever heard out of Jimmy, and that's saying something!
Having worked on both kinds of car the Audi was almost like a parts bin car, very brutal setup whereas the more modern form of car has a sort of package setup, everything works with everything else it’s super hard to get your head around but the engineering is just unreal.
Funny you should mention this. Last week I hammered my best R5 time by 12 seconds, in a Group B
Watching this made me think of Kimi in rally "double right keep centre, TRIPPLE CAUSTION, TRIPPLE CAUTION!"
you are amazing jimmer I can't even fully focus when I'm racing and here you are talking to the camera at the same time trying to achieve quick laps
For those who don't know, Group B Rally cars were basically a genre of the rally where car manufacturers and designers had free reign over the car with little to no restrictions. This meant that the cars being raced in Group B were extremely fast and very unsafe, causing Group B to be shut down due to lots of injuries and a few deaths.
WRC finally came to my country last year and I was a marshall again for my home race as I've been doing for a few years. I got to go watch on Friday and do a TC IN for a stage on Saturday. The 21 WRCs were just insanely fast. Especially in the corners but off the line as well.
And of course group B cars got beaten not all that long into group A either. Improvements in tires and suspension etc. At least here in Ypres the first gen Impreza was already faster than the Group Bs.
Group B will never get boring.
Everytime I come back to this channel I think "Jesus man. Jimmy broadbent is literally the perfect racing driver name"
Imagine if WRC makes the return of group B regulations (nearly no holds barred, evo clause) for a special class, like how Le Mans have the Hypercar Class but still having at least a good safety rules to prevent disasters.
I'd like to see how fast next year's Rally1 cars will bw
Rally is 👑 I ❤️ rally so please keep these short videos coming 💪🔥 we all appreciate it
Great example, but looking at the leader boards it also painted a whole different picture. Group B leader was over 25sec faster in the same car which means that it was also 17sec faster time than the modern car. Of course with new technology it becomes easier to drive fast, but to drive to the full potential of the car is a whole different thing. The fasters time for the same modern car was around 15sec quicker than the fastest time for the Group B car so not that huge difference, which sums up well the skill of the driver and capability of the car.
Started off very confused as you said you were playing WRC10, but in the description it says you're playing Dirt Rally 2.0, but whatever game it is, I love the video you've created.
Yes, as you said Jimmy, exactly the result we all expected.
And yet, also as you pointed out, amazing to see the difference in philosophy between the two generations.
I can remember being in Sutton Park, Sutton Coldfield, Birmingham watching the WRC come through in the late 70's (so a bit before the time of the Group B monsters) and being in awe of the speed & noise of the cars.
So trying to multiply that in my mind to what it must have been like when the Group B cars were in full flight boggles the mind.
Unfortunately we moved out of Sutton Coldfield at the end of '82 / start of '83 so even if they were still running through Sutton Park after that I wasn't around to be able to watch it anyway.
So, although we all expected the result you got (though I was surprised that it was 8 seconds, but I wonder how much of that was the fact that you "knew" the route a little better with the WRC than you did when you ran the T16 ??) but even allowing for that "better knowledge" the WRC would still have been WAY faster than the Group B.
One question I have though :- "Is the T16 the fastest (on that particular stage) of the Group B cars ?"
Would you be willing to do a run with EACH of the Group B's to see if any of them are faster & if so by how much & then redo the "test" ????
Yeah, there's nothing like the screaming i5 of the quattro, it's insane. Raw and brutal.
I also think that being comfortable in car matters a lot too. But I’ve always wondered about this, you’ve got my sub
I understand that modern WRC cars are more advanced and easier to control. But groupB drivers were real drivers to control those monsters on 4 wheels. Much respect.
Wrc is brilliant, I got me a subscription the past few years to watch. I miss Subaru, Mitsubishi, and Peugeot days though, we need more manufacturers in the sport.
with the first group b car, the drivers were told to left foot brake to counteract the turbo lag and it wasn't a H pattern gearbox, they used a semi automatic.
The real challenge in the Peugeot 205 is to keep the engine rotation high enough to keep the power flowing.
Damn, had this on the background and took a look at 9:25 and was very very confused about the engine graph on the screen before i realized what it acctually was :D
This is why i love racing lower powered cars more than higher powered cars. You can just throw them into a corner and they're just like "meh" and take it
The main pleasure of WRC 10 is a tyre lottery in the "Career Long" mode and wet gravel.
These kill features tear up the rest of the racing games.
This was a lot of fun to watch. The WRC car was so much faster through the corners it looked like you'd switched to an arcade game.
Juha Kankkunen actually kept the turbo spooled up on low rpms by leaving the foot on the accelerator when braking