@@JackClockerinos II think it was more that people comparing his books to WW1 often undervalued how he took far more inspiration from old sagas and his family (basically what the Tolkien film did).
Pretty sure this is the original: "Fairy tales do not tell children the dragons exist. Children already know that dragons exist. Fairy tales tell children the dragons can be killed." - G.K. Chesterton
Tolkein actually has an interesting defense of Grimdark in his essay about Beowulf "The Monsters and the Critics". In it, he describes the pagan Norse worldview as a functional way to cope with a miserable, doomed existence without the eternal hope/salvation offered by a Christian faith they have yet embrace. To paraphrase: "they gave the darkness victory, but no glory. By putting all of their faith in the value of doomed resistance they created a worldview that was impregnable to the tragedies of reality."
This is actually very good take. No matter how bad the world is around you, as long as you try to leave a mark and live with your head held high it doesn't matter if you fail in the end. You gave your best, even if it wasn't enough.
And this is pretty much what the Silmarillion is about. The Dark Lord Morgoth had corrupted the world beyond repair. While he was defeated physically, he still had won. Sauron created the Ring so he couldn't be killed, his boss Morgoth tainted the world and thus could never be utterly removed, without said world being destroyed. Therefore I wholeheartedly disagree with Red pitting GRRM "grimdark" ASOIAF (it really isn't that grimdark) against Tolkien's "not grimdark" work. Tolkien's legendarium is pretty grim and pretty dark. Doomed to go downhill before the world's creation was even completed, because Morgoth was a spiteful bastard and wanted to rebell against Daddy.
It ties into the Norse ideal of a hero, it wasn’t someone who could kill and beat everyone easily, there was that aspect though. Rather a hero was someone who in the face of certain defeat still fought, a person who mentally overcame the tragedy of this world to still continue onwards. It is very similar to Logotherapy or Mans Search for Meaning by Victor Frankel.
I would argue that the optimist would build a parachute because, well they think it can be of use in that moment, a true pessimist would think that once a plain starts crashing there is no surviving.
4:32 Regarding this, imagine how awesome it would be to see the opposite. Take a character that feels straight out of 40K and plop them in an extremely hopeful, heroic setting and see the cheerful atmosphere erode the shell of grimdark around them and put light back in their life.
I mean... out of everything in 40K, I would go with the imperium of man because that’s the one we’re I get to live and not get murdered by Aliens and demons XD
@@mojolotz I wouldn't call this a grimdark moment at all, actually. Firstly, this moment does have clearly defined heroes firmly on the side of good, so already two of the grimdark qualities are missing: lack of heroes and lack of morality. Secondly, I wouldn't even call the situation devoid of hope. The entirety of Lord of the Rings is driven forward by the hope of a better world (which is definitely achievable), just like in real life. "Ride out with me" wouldn't be an act of desperation in the face of a dark and uncaring world; it would be an act of courage and fellowship, one of goodness and, yes, hope that it can make some difference. Lotr is very powerful and true to life like that.
I was called naive and was 'protected' for being kind and polite. And as I got older, I almost fell for it, in that I almost gave up on being kind. Then, my dad passed away. In my memory, he loved my kindness, and he always supported me and though he didn't have favourite children, mom always says that I was his favourite. I really miss him, but kindness in the face of negativity shows my strength and kindness shows the influence of my dad and my Father in my life.
"The Orks are the pinnacle of creation. For them, the great struggle is won. They have evolved a society which knows no stress or angst. Who are we to judge them? We Eldar who have failed, or the Humans, on the road to ruin in their turn? And why? Because we sought answers to questions that an Ork wouldn't even bother to ask! We see a culture that is strong and despise it as crude." - Eldar Philosopher, Uthan the Perverse's thoughts on Orks
@@lv100Alice No, but that's partially the point; jokes aside of course. Those guardsmen retired to a planet, which is a victory in and of itself. However, what happens afterwards? Entirely regardless of whether or not the audience sees it, that "victory" is temporary at best on the galactic scale. They will still die: whether from old wounds, old age, or the myriad of galactic threats. They may have achieved victory in the short term, but the Grimdark always gets you. That's one of the things that makes it awesome. Whether or not you WILL lose tomorrow, you won today. Cherish that.
A knife STC? Can the Mechanicus not mass produces knives or are STC's so ridiculously valuable that even if one is found to be useless, its existance as Imperium property is good enough
@@armintor2826 Your latter question hits the nail on the head directly and firmly. Regardless to whether or not it is an STC fragment that is already possessed, the Imperium does not have the resource to replace them. By having a spare, should the worst ever come to pass and the first is destroyed somehow: well we have another, thank the Emperor.
That doesnt change the Overall outlook of the setting. 40k is a grimdark setting, and as mentioned, some of the stories are not grimdark stories, they are just in the grimdark setting of 40k
Not really if mankind can survive a nuclear missle crisis, countless more devestating plauges and natural disasters than mankind can survive this plauge.
"Orkses is never defeated in battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fighting so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!"
Christian Dauz idk what effect Orks have on Chaos though. The thing about Chaos is that it needs things to feed it. If it comes down to Orks, who can’t really be corrupted by Chaos, Tyranids, who Chaos can’t comprehend, and Chaos; my bet is on the Tyranids personally. The thing about Orks, as so eloquently explained above, is that they don’t lose. Sometimes they don’t win, but that doesn’t count.
Tolkien: writes one of the darkest settings one could think of, filled with ancient evils, eldritch horrors, and a lingering sense of dread as you are slowly corrupted by the One Ring. And that's not even getting into the Silmarillion. Also Tolkien: writes Tom Bombadil.
_We'll be swingin' when we're winnin'. We'll be swingin'._ _I get murdered, but I get up again! You're not ever gonna keep me down!_ (repeat ×4) _Fighting the night away; fighting the night away._ _He drinks an Estus flask, he eats a mossy clump,_ _He eats humanity, he drinks an Estus flask._ _He swings swords that remind him of the good times,_ _He swings swords that remind him of the better times._ _Oh, Patchy Boy, Patchy Boy, Patchy Boy..._ [Refrain]
Thou she has a misconseption that all Grimdark protagonists always die they don't take Wilard from Apocalypse Now he manages to complete his mission and leave Vietnam the problem is Vietnam never left him.
@@forickgrimaldus8301 Yup. Grimdark isn't about death of protagonists, what is common occurrence even in lighter series. General idea is that world is really crappy place and people usually fight only for survival instead any epic adventures. Usually without real hope for the future. Still contrary to popular believe people can be happy locally, even if for short time. Good example of this theme is Warhammer, bad edgy 90's BS.
@@TheRezro yes absolutely the 40k universe is known for dark humor and over the top ironic humor. This also help spark the gem that is "if the emperor has a text to speech device".
When Red mentioned the Eldar partying so hard they created a Chaos God, my mind instantly went "I believe the term you are searching for is, Murder-fucking"
" So you murder-fucked the most horrific of the chaos gods into reality, gave it total ownership of your souls and now you cling to existence as your essence is being constantly siphoned into a void of eternal torture of your own making... and we are the savage primatives?" "Correct you filthy mon-keigh"
@@barrylyndon5552 I mean do keep in mind they spent the last 60 million years ruling the galaxy after the Necrons went into statis and their Godlike Toad creators are likely all dead. This is likely something they just can't grasp.
Obligatory C.S. Lewis quote: "Since it is so likely that [children] will meet cruel enemies, let them at least have heard of brave knights and heroic courage. Otherwise you are making their destiny not brighter but darker."
Any idea on the sauce of that quote? I appreciate his philosophizing...mostly...and I want a bit of ammo to stave off my own descent into grimdark about the actual world I'm living in right now.
I have to disagree to an extent, I think that we should have heroes (too an extent) but they do need to be believable, and we should of course encourage moral complexity. Heroes should never be pure or perfect, they should fail at times, and sometimes they should even be immoral (so they can learn from it). Heck it's also important for nuanced villains, because ultimately kids should also know that those 'cruel enemies' are still human beings who probably have understandable motives. Maybe by encouraging nuanced villains we encouraged people to deal with each other via understanding instead of crushing their opponents mercilessly
@@AeneasGemini I mean yeah. I don't think anything in the quote really goes against that. I see it as being more about having heroes at all, instead of the grimdark idea of everyone being a terrible person. A flawed person overcoming their flaws is still, in my mind, a heroic action.
Wish more people would realize that a good person is actually realistic and that even dark stories benefit from such because it makes the whole thing more believable and adds weight. You want to know what one of 40Ks best stories is? It's the story where some Space Marines make a hard decision while traversing ork-infested territory and run into a mother and her young child also trying to escape. And the hard choice they make? *Bringing her along with them because it's the right thing to do* rather than leaving two insignificant civilians to their fate. They do the right thing not because it's easy but because it is the right thing, even though it makes their mission harder. Yet so many "realistic" stories that are really just grimdark would have the mother and child left behind while extolling the virtue of making "hard decisions" that are actually taking the easy way out for the guy making the choice.
As a thing to add, I personally find SOME grimdark refreshing. As someone with clinic depression and severe anxiety, watching someone in a undeniably worse situation and truly hopeless one at that, never giving up and continuing to claw forward can be serve as a bit of a recharge. Sure this person is fictional and the world cartoonishly dark and grim, but they still have hope no matter how much the setting wants to crush it. Also woo to learn Red plays 40k! or at least did.
I completely agree; that whole "indomitable human spirit vs the cruel, indifferent universe" concept is one that's stayed in my mind for a long while now, driving me forward. Easily one of the best ways to write a story in my opinion.
This is honestly why I love dark and horrific stories in general. It kinda gives me the feeling of "if they can make it through something this terrible, maybe I can as well."
I don't mind _some_ darkness (ie: The World of Darkness/Shadowrun/Cyberpunk role-playing games), I'd just rather not be surrounded by it 24/7, thankyouverymuch!
I would argue that the first rule should be reworded. It's not that there are no heroes in grimdark, it's that they *don't matter.* One person with ideals will never be enough. They can win victory after victory but, at the end of the day, it's all pointless for one reason or another. The Ciaphas Cain novels are a good example. Cain saves lives, cities, worlds, hell entire sectors, but for every one of those he saves the nightmares of the 40k galaxy take ten times that amount.
If one expects total victory in an unbeatable enemy than one is a fool if one achives small victories in the face of overwhelming odds than one is a hero and the act of heroisim alone should be praised.
@NotYourGreatestPlan grimdark contrary to popular belief has good moral characters even if their in a flawed world take niteowl for example and people that don't see that should probably read something else.
Good grimdark doesn't say "you're stupid if you believe you can win." Good grimdark says "even if you can't win, fighting on for a valorous cause and doing the right thing is its own reward."
One part of "The Lord of the Rings" that has really stuck with me over the years is the part where Frodo & Sam come across a statue the orcs vandalized, knocking off the head and replacing it with a boulder they painted with a leering ugly face. But Frodo points out the head of the statue lying nearby wearing a new crown of flowers. "They can't win forever." Frodo tells Sam.
Beautiful. I really need to get the Lord of the Rings books and read them. Thanks for this. Also, it just shows that what any story should do above all else is juxtaposition i.e. balance out the themes and tones.
I know something interesting is that the person who made Watchmen was absolutely horrified by the trend he started so he decided to try and make a much more hopeful comic and it was actually a brief nice story the only problem was the grimdark was in full swing so it was pretty much ignored.
I can rant all day about DC Comics loads of times when they went grim dark. Imma just put "Batman Who Laughs" along with Metal/Death Metal. Scott Snyder used to be good, I swear!
An interesting take on Grimdark is actually Berserk. It's extremely grimdark after Griffith totally did something wrong, but over time, some light begins to shine through. Once Guts is given a focus besides revenge, he slowly starts getting what TVTropes calls "Messiah Creep." His determination, guts (ha!), defiance, the struggle against hopeless odds that Red mentions, and habit of flipping fate off begins to have an effect. His bad assery and standing up for the little guy begins to inspire others. Most stories end with someone (Jill, the Priest at the end of the troll arc) awed, filled with hope and wanting to take fate into their own hands. Compare this to the seeming messianic utopia that Griffith has created that is actually an impending feast for the Apostles.
To add to Berserk as an example: the Dark Souls games. They're pretty much a tribute to Berserk and are games that embody the futility and grittiness of Grimdark. A central theme is literally the cyclical nature of the world: whatever choice you make at the end will still lead to another cycle of Linking the Fire (or not Linking).
Berserk fall mostly under the category of noble dark, look it is real edit: I didn't say that berserk wasn't grimdark at the beginning but I believe that the author maybe changed the tone because of the points expressed in the video about grimdark being too bleak to care, in which case why bother if everything is going down and nothing change.
@@rexturbo10 I would argue that arcs past the one with Mozgus are nobledark, but before that is grimdark. Let's be real, before the reincarnation ceremony there was no hope in sight and Guts was struggling just to struggle and his only goal was to kill Griffith. It wasn't until he decided to protect Casca and try to help her recover her mind that he had purpose beyond revenge, hope for the future, and began to open himself up to others and make friends ago. Now, I'm curious as to how Kentaro Miura would have continued it, because you know damn well that the behelit that they were carrying around was meant for Serpico.
I haven't read berserk but this actually reminds me a lot of vinland saga! the first section of the story is incredibly grimdark from the perspective of the main character thorfinn. He is willingly being strung along as an effective killing machine by the man who killed his father and ruined his life, so that he can enact revenge and kill him in combat. without spoiling too much, of the story, as it truly is one of the rare stories that i think everyone (that is of a given maturity because of it's gore and grimmnes), should read it. Thorfinn does find a direction after hopelessness. also, a there is a character that disillusioned and the parallel to thorfinn, who starts very different to him, yet goes on a mirror journey to throfinn, and though he recognizes and respects thorfinn as does he, both of them decide to live by the ideals they've landed on and prove through action what they think to be right. i am not nearly as good with words as many others but i hope i've convinced at least one of you to try and stick with it. in terms of other of my favourite media, i'd put this up their with Avatar: the last air bender, full metal alchemist brother hood, to your eternity, and a novel callled 'year of wonders'.
@@gohanr1271 Vinland isn't really that dark. I mean there are plenty of jokes and humorous elements in the first arc, yes it's darker then the other arcs but I wouldn't really put it into grimdark myself.
"Or you could play as the Tau" And get bullied both in lore, on the table top, and by everyone else who plays.. oh who am I kidding, you'll get bullied no matter who you play as.
To me, the appeal of grimdark is that it depicts trying as a good thing, whereas most media depicts succeeding as a good thing. Like, most media will have a darkest hour moment where they’re like “oh nooo, our protagonists might not succeed, all their trying might turn out to be pointless!” Grimdark more often says “our protagonists tried, and failed, but it still matters that they tried.” It’s like that one tumblr post about tragedies that said something along the lines of “the love didn’t save anyone, but it was there and it mattered.” Since stories are meant, in part, to inspire people by relating them to the protagonists, if all people have are stories of successful heroes to be inspired by, when they fail they might lose that relatability and stop being inspired. If someone is inspired by grimdark heroes (such as Lamenters from 40k), they either succeed or continue to find the heroes relatable. On a much simpler note, almost every non-grimdark story ends with “good guys win and bad guys lose,” so grimdark is really the only genre where I actually wonder what the ending will be like. Protagonists overcoming hopeless odds means the odds weren’t hopeless, so grimdark is mostly alone in having characters actually face hopeless odds. Obviously there’s also just shitty nihilistic grimdark, and that’s bad, but it’s not inherent to grimdark
You 100% nailed it. I was going to write a very similar comment: At 15:40 this video says that persistence in the face of hopelessness being encouraging is an appeal of grimdark, but assumes that it can only be encouraging if it is rewarded. I think the fact that it is not rewarded is the beauty of the theme - persistence in the face of hopelessness is not a good thing *because* it gives you rewards: if it did, it would not be hopelessness, as you wrote. Grimdark reminds me that persistence is an inherent good, it's not only good when it is rewarded. An Imperial Guardsman in WH40k is, most likely, completely doomed, and everything they do is for naught. The hope that drives that character is, from a factual perspective, foolish and incorrect, but it is NOT wrong of them to have it. Their life will go poorly and there is nothing they, or anyone else, can do about it, but their experiences still have value. They are incorrect to hope or the relationships they build are ultimately pointless, but their hope and relationships still have value. For most of us, we will die and be forgotten, making no lasting impact on the world. Having hope that we, personally, could make the world significantly better is wrong more often than not, as it is in Grimdark, but we are right to believe so anyway.
Does the story insist that the trying matters when the trying accomplishes nothing? It seems to me that consistently depicting trying as futile is admonishing those who try.
Isn't the entire point of trying to achieve some goal? What's the point in fighting a battle that will definitively never be won? The ultimate fantasy of grimdark is hopelessness exists, and that's not a fantasy I find very appealing.
@@brookejon3695 You are entirely right, that is the question. Those it matter? Some people will say no and some yes. Now, I am not saying that everyone who says no is an inherent nihilist, but that is the root question as far as I see it. If we all knew, for a *certainty*, that the world is ending in 10 days, does it matter what you do? what is moral? do you curl up in a ball and just roll over? do you go out and smell the flowers one last time? or do you go out and commit unspeakable acts? again, at that point, does it matter? I feel that this is the question a Grimdark setting ask, should we be nihilistic in the face of utter hopelessness? @alexjewett7455 and yes, that would go for your point as well "What's the point in fighting a battle that will definitively never be won?" The way I see it, is that you did not succumb to nihilism. I get why you would not find a fantasy that has truly real hopelessness in it appealing. I get why some would see it as too dark and ask where the good is, if there is no hope for a happy ending. I do not know if *True* hopelessness exists, in real life. For some it might, or at least it might seem so, atleast on a personal level. But on a larger scale, I would hope not. I do think that the world can get better and better. But what I find fascinating and even beautiful, in the question that I feel that the Grimdark setting ask. Is that even if all hope is lost, even if this is the last stand, even if the world ends in 10 days no matter what, then there is still some part of the human spirit that will stand up, and spit in the face of death. Or at least I like to hope that there is.
Interesting note about the comparison between Tolkien and Martin: Tolkien was a soldier on the front lines in World War I and wrote an optimistic and hopeful story about overcoming the forces of evil rooted in fantasy. Martin was never in any armed forces or any other comparable conflict and wrote a largely pessimistic and much more graphic story rooted in history.
@@samhunt3666 pulling hope out of your ass when all evidence points to there being no hope at all is trite and delusional, at least edgy nihilism is truthful.
@@siyacer No he didn't, he only fought in the first one. His only direct involvement in the second war was being approached by the government to potentially be a code breaker, and getting some basic training in how to do that role, but was never called into active service to do so. Two of his sons did serve in the military during the second war though.
Tolkien always denied writing any part of lotr and the hobbit as a metaphor or symbolism for ww1. That being said I definitely think he did it subconsciously
@@dominikdeciga4307 No, he still didn't. Was he influenced by those events? Certainly. Are some of those influences clear in the work? Also again, very much so. And there are parts that he was very open about basing on things he saw while in the war. But no, none of it was metaphor or allegory. It simply was what it was in text. Tolkien really, really disliked the entire idea of allegory. Instead simply presenting the text of the story as it is, not being more then what it is, and letting any other meaning or message come solely from how the reader relates to the text.
When I was in middle school, one of my teachers described an emotion he called "happysad". I was confused by what he meant, and he used the ending of a sad movie I watched as an example. I felt like I understood; I said "Oh, you mean it's sad when the character dies, but there's also happiness in it because his death inspires other characters to work towards a better future?" He said "No, I mean that you're sad because he dies, but then happy because it wasn't real!" I've spent my whole life since then baffled by that conversation. But now, watching this, it seems like my middle-school teacher wasn't alone. Perhaps, for some people, the fact that a piece of fiction isn't real is _consciously_ tied to their emotional response to its events.
I think one way that people cope with their problems is to be engrossed in a fictional story, and when something sad happens in the story, you can allow yourself to feel the emotions in a contained and controlled environment. It's almost like an experiment. You can have those feelings you're already feeling, but not necessarily have to think about why you feel those feelings.
@@soapthesoap you're describing catharsis, which is a little different than what VampPhoenix99 was talking about. they're expressing confusion at the concept that some people think "ah well, it wasn't real" or "at least that didn't happen to me" in response to bad things happening in a story. I tend to agree with Vamp. As a person who enjoys tragedies and some grimdark stories, my enjoyment personally comes from the catharsis of safely experiencing those negative emotions from a distance, and I don't really get how or why someone would willingly detach themselves from an immersive story in order to cheer themselves up that it "wasn't real".
Yeah but whenever you say World War you just wanna say 2. It's like the Terminator, everyone knows there's a first but you just thing of Jusgement Day.
Madoka Magica is actually a really good example of how grimdark can have a hero, and ultimately a happy ending, even if not everything is fixed (just talking about the series, not rebellion) and is a perfect example of why I read grimdark stuff, because where the world is dark, the small glimmers of hope and specks of happiness shine all the brighter, and in that we learn to appreciate stuff like that all the more.
@@fluxuous6907 it scared me for life and if it has a happyish ending, thats highly subjective. Akemi hasone goal and even in the happyend she fails whilerememberingall the trauma she went through trying to get it right . . . Realy love the show though
@@fluxuous6907 Well I think by definition grimdark can not have a hero madoka is grim and dark but it is not grimdark. Madoka is one of my favorite animes ever and so is banana fish if ya know that. I love if heroes are morally ambiguous but if the main protagonist is truly a completely unlikeable character and there's no satisfying ending I don't usually like it. For example,I love musicals and I love the first act of Chicago so much but the ending feels so unsatisfying to me. I love gritty and dark stories but I love having heroes and a satisfying ending. There's a difference between the dark and gritty and grimdark.
This video actually reminded me a lot of Explanation Point's video on Magical Girl Site, and why it and other "Madoka clones" tend to fall flat. Because they forget that at its core, underneath the sadness and brutality, Madoka Magica is about hope.
Stories in grimdark settings are uniquely positioned to teach us how to cope with, or find meaning in, failure. Other stories tend to teach that success is the inevitable result of persistence, that hope is always justified. But sometimes it isn’t. There’s merit in challenging the belief that hope is the only salvation for the hopeless.
As someone who was depressed for 6 years straight, the struggle against hopeless odds in grimdark stories is incredibly motivating. Real life kept kicking me while i was down, and i was never rewarded for my persistence. I kept fighting, but i could help but wonder why. Seeing someone go through an exaggerated metaphor for what i was going through AND never quiting, even though he isnt rewarded for it is incredibly cathartic and motivating.
This is exactly why I think so many people (myself included) got so much out of Dark Souls. Yeah, I'm a small, insignificant player in a game where everyone else has already done everything important. Yeah, I'm not as strong, smart, or capable as any of the enemies that I run into. But after spending three hours trying to beat the Taurus Demon, that wasn't the Chosen Undead conquering some random demon on a wall. That was me, breaking through an obstacle that was holding me back. I can do this. I can keep moving forward.
@@VernulaUtUmbra Exactly!! I love darksouls. Ive put a hundred hours into the game and havent even made much progress. Still love the fuck out of the game
Funny, when I was depressed, grimdark was something I hit myself over the head with and was one of my most self destructive behaviors. I kept reading and watching things about angry, depressed, violent characters that reinforced how I saw myself and the world. Consuming more hopeful stories, especially ones where well-written characters got over some of the same issues I had and become better people, helped me a lot.
I think that's what the appeal of grimdark boils down to: people who are completely miserable want to see someone going through something more difficult without surrendering to it. As someone who also lives with depression, that is what inspiration looks like to me.
5:02 I love the 40K Cain books as they give a face to the people who have to be boots on the ground. The main character has no special powers. He cares about the people he works with and has to solve almost impossible situations while trying to keep who cares about alive. Basically Blackadder in space :D
"The main character has no special powers." I'm pretty sure Tzeentch-induced bullshit powers of not dying, even in the most deadly, lethal, fatal and inescapable situations, not to mention having everybody believe your bullshit, counts as a special power.
So with the struggle against hopeless odds thing theres one bit you missed. You said if people want to watch persistance in the face of hopelessness BE REWARDED. In Grimdark not only the character, but the observer both know the situation is hopeless, which makes the fact that they stand that much more powerful (to me anyway). To quote one of the best lines in all 40k fiction: "I have seen the power of Chaos Torgaddon, you cannot fight it" "Yet here I stand"
Yeah, the notion of still flipping the bird at whoever or whatever is in the process of killing you can be satisfying. Hope is the ultimate motivator, but folks forget that spite is another form of hope.
Let me just drop my obligatory quote of Jaghatai Khan being faced with a vision of the grim future "‘I do not doubt your visions,’ the Khan said, quietly. ‘But what do they change? Shall we stare up at the shadows and let our blades fall from our hands?' 'Know this, son of Magnus. There is more under the arch of heaven than victory and defeat. We may fall back, but not forever. We may feint and we may weave, but not forever. We may yet be doomed to lose all we cherish, but we shall do so in the knowledge that we could have turned away, and did not.’ ‘We remained true,’ the Khan said. ‘They can never have this, not if they burn all we ever built and scorn us through the dancing flames. You hear me? We remained true.’" Edit: Quote is from Chris Wraight's Path of Heaven, for anyone interested. I highly recommend reading Scars beforehand, though.
15:48 I think the people on Twitter meant that it is good to see the spirit of humanity carrying on even in an utterly hopeless situation where both the characters and the audience know that they're going to lose even before they try, but they still do the right thing anyway.
Yeah it kind of misses the point. Persistence in the face of hopelessness isn't hopeless if they actually succeed. They are saying persisting in the face of actual hopelessness, not shonen/ movie hero hopelessness which usually means kind of difficult or really difficult Those other shows don't "do it better" because people aren't talking about watching people succeed and being inspired by it. They're talking about watching people fail and try none the less
“There are no good choices” False. The orcs are dumb enough that they can staple together cement and cardboard boxes, think it works, and will it into becoming a hovercraft. They are the best option and you cannot tell me otherwise.
Remember the Orks are a Bioweapon designed for a war with aganist a force that could casually destroy stars from halfway across the galaxy and rip apart time and space like it was tissue paper and just straight up treat the Laws of Physics as guidelines. Oh, and their modern abilities are in a primitive state compared to when they are the Kork.
I mean, if people were hopeful enough that that aspect of Tzeentch became dominant, would he even be the enemy any longer? That’s not to say it’s possible, he is and always will be a scheming asshole, the personification of scheming assholery, and the patron of scheming assholes everywhere, but academically, it’s an interesting question.
@@CelticPheonix101 It'd certainly mellow him out *a bit*, but the gods are fueled the strongest by the most powerful, basic bad emotions - and for Tzeentch, that's trickery and deception, the feeling you get when your hope is betrayed. The gods have become defined by these most powerful aspects, so if everyone got hopeful, Tzeentch would probably use the newfound power to orchestrate some massive plot that betrays everyone's hope simultaneously - which, coincidentally, would make him even more powerful in the process.
The actual exception in Warhammer 40k are the Salamanders, who I can considered as the "good guys" in the Imperium of Man, they deadass care for the people and to see 1 civilian death is a failiure.
@@ranger5839 the difference is the lamenters are the embodiment of grim dark kicking the ass of anyone who's good or hopeful as described in the video. Still hope they get a redemption arc and kill huran or luscious Tbh I just want anyone to permanently kill that horrible excuse of a character.
"good guys in 40k" Guiliman:a flawed man who despite this trys to remain a good person despite his demigod nature Jaghatai khan:a outcast who despite having a semi fractured legion,united them physically and spiritualy becoming badasses Sanguinus:a noble man with darkness in his soul who saved his legion from dammnation by being a good person Corvus corax:a liberator of the opressed who desired to see people prosper Vulkan:a man among gods,a humble blacksmith who became a god of war whos fury would put angron to shame Farsight:a hotheaded tau who found wisdom in dark places,who contemplated his kinds very nature and strove to save who he can from the growing darkness Eldrad:though he did bad shit eldrad was a true aeldari who sought to see his people prosper and learn from there mistakes although still a eldar Yvraine:the champion of the god of death,who sought to revive the old aeldari,kill she who thirsts so that they become better The silent king:the necron who lead his people to dammnation and lost everything for it,to go beyond the galaxy and return hellbent to kill the great devourer despite everything hes doing Pre heresy magnus:a man who ruled justly and even though he was on the road to dammnation,attempted to persuade lorgar from his dark path,leading to where he was Pre heresy horus:a kind man who tried to allways be diplomatic,and even on the edge of dammnation denied he was good for warmaster and even after erebus turned he and his brothers to dammnation,the emporor would give mercy to horus by erasing him completely Dante: despite craving the finaly release, still carries the nobility of the angel leading the chapter Leman russ:a hypocrite and horrible man,when prospero,its people and the thousand sons burned,it would set him on a path of redemption,only for the sins of the father,to follow the sons
On point 3, the appeal of Grimdark as a tale of defiance with specifically no hope of winning, I'd argue it's a cultural split between you and those who commented it. You see, 40k is suprisingly popular in the former Eastern Europe. Even though GW's miniatures are well outside our pricerange. The reason? The novels paint a picture of a bleak, horrible world (ala 1984), but one with people continuing to resist it. The Eastern European experience is specifically that of struggling against horrible reality with no hope of winning. And for many of us, and also those in depression, who genuinely do not see a clearly possible victory, the idea of continuing to struggle out of sheer "fuck you", our of sheer "we shall not go quietly into the night" is genuinely inspiring. The idea of a situation that can not get better, but which you fight regardless, out of sheer defiance is a very common cultural cliche in Lithuania, driven by historical experience. The idea that defiance on its own is a worthy cause even when it achieves nought. The principle of standing back up after countless beatings, the principle of dying with your eyes open. These are undenyably grim themes with grim outcomes. And yet they are a mainstain of our history, something which in some ways is in fact inspiring. There are three ways to approach insurmountable odds. 1) Determine that the fight is unwinnable and give up 2) Find a way to make the fight winnable, find "the happy ending" 3) Fight regardless of if a happy ending is possible. Option 3 is the "inspiring" part of Grimdark. The concentration camp rebel, destined to die. The person cought in the crossfire of WW2, continuing to write poetry regardless. These themes are arguibly culturally unfamiliar to Americans such as you, but they are increadibly familiar to Eastern Europeans. The case where "dying with sword in hand" is the "good ending".
More familiar to some Americans than you might think. That's exactly why I like 40k, and appreciate the Imperium of Man, most of all the Imperial Guard. Because the average guardsman is just a mortal. A normal guy or girl. Handed cardboard armor and a weapon that would let you conquer the planet today in early M3, but in M40 and M41 is called a flashlight because that's about how effective it is when the power armor clad demi gods, giant space roaches, undead murder zombie robots or literal fucking daemons are out for your blood. But you show up and fight like hell anyway, because fuck those assholes, better to die fighting than surrender.
As someone who loves in the USA, I can tell you that those in the lower wage brackets here are quite familiar with the 'just keep fighting, even without a possible victory because fuck surrender' mentality. I don't get up in the morning because I have hope for my future. I gave that up years ago. I do it because the other option is giving up, and fuck. that.
Reading this makes me realize exactly why it's so infuriating to see sheltered white middle-class liberals making vastly inappropriate comparisons between contemporary politics and stories where the good guys win: Harry Potter, Star Wars (except the prequels, obviously), Lord of the Rings, etc. These are the comfortable people who often overlook the fact that the experience of living in America for almost anyone besides their demographic for the majority of its history is an experience more closely mapping to a grimdark story, a history where the breakthroughs and the victories are the (rightly celebrated) exceptions, not the rule. It's an often overlooked or deliberately hidden facet of our history, one in which millions have lived their entire lives under the thumb of capitalist oppression, with many facing state-sanctioned genocide, incarceration, or chattel slavery. In the absence of a unified working-class resistance and the prospect of a century that will leave Earth a much worse place than when it came, option 1 (a.k.a. suicide) is initially the most attractive if you're alone, but finding comrades willing to help you fight or live to fight another day makes options 2 and 3 much more palatable.
It'd be a shame if all that grimdark actually shut progressive fandoms in their bubbles, and the facist aligning no-lgbt zoners run amok in mainstream media.
Warhammer is so grim dark that at times it loops back to becoming a comedy A race of sentient mushrooms are fighting against a BDSM slavery, pirate cult? Hilarious! A dead corpse needing a thousand the sacrifice of thousands of latent pyschics? What a riot! Space Vikings and Space Mongols fighting against enemies that orgasm when they hear a specific sound? The material writes itself!
Ironically, I think that Warhammer 40k is a fun setting because it's "grimdark" in a childish way. 40k is the sci-fi universe equivalent of a 6-year-old saying, "Oh yeah? Well my character can do everything that yours can +1!" Most things in 40k exist as the result of ongoing dick-measuring contest of power scaling. The result is characters and units doing ludicrous things via ludicrous methods that are so dark that they circle back around to being goofy. At the same time, the setting is big enough that you can isolate stories and events within it to sort of fit it to the level of seriousness or grimdarkness that you want. Example of 40k silliness: Orks in 40k all have minor psychic abilities but are too stupid to know about it. Orks also all think relatively alike. So, when the Orks all believe something, their collective psychic power forces it to become true. Orks all think that their red vehicles move faster, so they do. Orks all perceive a machine gun as a box with a magazine/belt, trigger, and barrel sticking out, and so their guns are just pieces of scrap metal welded together into a gun shapes. Orks are, admittedly, 40k's comic relief. But, equally silly things are spread throughout the universe.
Yeah,all the space travel is powered by a dead psychic god and we keep him alive by sacrificing a thousand virgins to him a day. Mhm. - Oh yeah? Well, the universe is surrounded by an endless horde of murder-bugs, and everyone is doomed! YEAH? Well, the fucking GODS are damned! EVERYTHING IS FUCKED! - *YEAH?!* THE MURDER BUGS EAT HELL WHEN THEY EAT STUFF! God, it just keeps fucking going.
I think the reason people call grimdark "more realistic" even though that's not really true, is because often media will avoid prolonged and overt depictions of human suffering, so stories that lean into that can shed perspective on a real aspect of the human experience that is often neglected in media. There is also a macabre beauty to be found in the faint wisps of hope in perilous scenarios, even if they are ultimately quashed, as they often have been in reality. I'm not a fan of the overly edgy (and cringey) aspects of some grimdark narratives, but I can appreciate the unique and complex stories that can only be told through the lens of suffering and misery. Because while it's true that the world can become a better place through the effort of good people, it too can become a worse place through the effort of not so good people, and I think exploring that is valuable.
these people in the comments need to reject the direction brained false paradigms of "X vs Y" if they are to truly find solutions in a fundamentally three dimensional world. sadly not many people are taught basic critical reasoning early on intead opting for the kneejerk "us or them" black and white Hegelian dialectic.the idea that humans are fundamentally biologically flawed is a patently false and is frankly a cruel social Darwinist concept. this situation were in is LEARNED and that gives me all the more reason to think we can unlearn the lies we are taught by those that want us to fight over petty minutiae.
@@isectoid9454 I'm pretty sure the Inquisition absolutely will kill you for making a joke about the Emperor... or the Space Marines... or a flavor of pizza the Inquisitor happens to like...
40K: the most grimdark game out there that has super intelligent orangutans, giant robot skyscrapers, and essentially mushroom people able to throw a car battery into a shopping cart and use it as a tank
@@TheRedMooncorp For all the Horrible things in the 40k there is Hope, for the better, granted there is god Feeding off it but still. Also Rambo IS SPAZZZZE!
The general situation is fucked however since Chaos has multiple 'I Win' buttons which they never press Kharn would slaughter ALL of the Black Templars, Sisters of Silence, Sisters of Battle, Tempestus Scions, Catachans and Death Korps of Krieg! The Siege of Terra Novel, Saturnine, has some big implications for the lore
@@christiandauz3742 I mean, every major faction in 40k has several instant I win buttons, that never get pushed. Chaos doesn't want to push that button, because if Chaso wins, Humanity dies and so does Chaos. Thats been stated since Rouge Trader, and reiterated in every edition since. The great game has to be eternal, and you can't play the game without pawns. The Imperium has Arc Mechanicus ships, which are each actually fully functioning STCs with Weapons that outstrip everything ever seen in 40k ( the reason its not pushed is just about every AI in the galaxy isn't exactly happy with Humanity (mostly because a lot of them fucked off and didn't see how the Age of Strife went down, or were rebels in the War vs the Men of Iron), so it erased the knowledge of the STC being there from the Magos's mind, but it still helped them out when thwy were attacked by Eldar, so its entirety possible that an STC AI backed into a corner may choose differently one day to let humans know), Cawl's projects (some of which according to him eclipse the Primarius), Roboute's return was straight up stated to shift the favor of the long war into the Imperium's side (the Long War is the war fought by the Black Legion, not Chaos entirety) and other Loyalist Primarchs are still around (at least the Lion is in the Rock and Corvus in the Warp). The Aeldari have Ynnead, and technically also the Imperium, as they, despite how much they hate each other, the Eldar know if Humanity falls so do they (hence why they got involved a little bit in the Horus Heresy to ensure The Imperium's win by delivering Vulkan to Terra, and getting heavily involved to the point of more or less the closest thing 40k has to an alliance in the 13th black crusade and after they revived Roboute Guilliman) Orks have their own biology, and the possibility of GMT becoming the next Beast Nids have sheer numbers Necrons have super weapons that rival DAOT Humanity, including: Their own enslaved broken Gods A Supernova Generator with Galactic range Æonic orbs, which are literally enslaved Stars The Silent King's return, and thr possibility of him being able to awaken all of the Necrons (which are awakening naturally, since they programed their alarm clock to the Fall of the Elder, but were a few thousand years off ( more excusable since they predicted the time damn near exactly over dozens of millions of years ago)
See, I’ve been getting invested in some different grimdark stories recently, and I’ve finally understood that “struggle in the face of hopelessness” thing. Sure, sometimes the author is saying that hope is dumb and you should feel bad, which just sucks. But in the best cases, the author is making the case that it is alright right to be kind, be selfless, and help others, even where you receive no reward. Weirdly enough, Doctor Who of all places is what got this to click for me, specifically “the Doctor Falls” and its “without witness, without reward” speech.
That's the thing with (good) Grimdark most people don't get. The whole point is hope and to struggle. Fight even if you think you can't win, have hope even if there is no reason to. THOSE are the points of grimdark. To look at seemingly hopeless situations and deciding to continue on, if for nothing but yourself. Which is why the grimdark stories where they specifically say having hope is dumb ticks me off, they missed the whole point.
@@thenightwatchman1598 In what world does that make sense? Pure narcissism would be believing that nothing and no one can kill you on the battlefield. Having hope in that you might survive doesn't even compare.
@@Logamer-tn6db oh buddy. masochists can be a hella narcassitic. why do you think the south park mel gibson joke about him enjoying being tortured all the time is so funny?
40K has managed to make Grimdark work in a way almost no other setting has, because it uses scope properly. The 40K universe is a dumpsterfire and anything CAN and will kill you at the drop of a hat(possibly even your own side), but there's also room for small victories. You can banish that deamon for 101 yrs and keep him from eating you planet. Sure there's plenty else out there to kill you but there's also lots of things for that stuff to kill(even each other) you might slip by unnoticed for a lifetime or two. So much Grimdark focuses on how EVERYTHING is ending, and how it's all so important RIGHT NOW. 40K flips the script, almost nothing is important and while something's always ending somewhere, there's a lot of everything out there and even if it is ending it'll take a Very Long Time(tm)
I think you hit the nail on the head. 40k's insanely huge setting means that the world can be ending all the time and totally doomed... but the people and little part we care about can still be saved. (if only for now.)
Yeah, also people seems to forget that in 40k the Imperium of Man literally has MILLIONS of planets under them. The fall of one planet it's only important if it has some strategic value (like Cadia), and we only really care because the lens of the story brought us to the people that live there. Supposedly, the Imperium both loses and wins planets every single day, but you don't hear about them.
As much as I love 40k, I have to (since I've been warching more Isaac Arthur videos lately) correct you a little when it comes to scale. In terms of numbers engaged in combat and such, the numbers given in 40k lore are ridiculously low comapred to how insanely wast the resources the Imperium of Man would have access to are. We're talking troop numbers alone where billions of deaths a day are completely sustainable and barely put a dent in the total manpower of the Guard. They really, really, really lowball their numbers. Cadia may be lost, but more people almost just are born each day than lived and died on Cadia since the heresy. The Empire can literally drown its enemies in bodies, hency why a single life is worth next to nothing. :)
And 40k does have heroes, and characters who are shining paragons, within the parameters of their faction. Plus, while there's no endgame, no way to "save the world", there is hope, the hope to live another day, to save one planet, one city, to stave off the tide for a single day. There's no absolute victory, you win by delaying the apocalypse just a bit more.
Recently I've discovered what a series of authors have called "noblebright", a mirror to grimdark. They describe it as a counter to grimdark in the way that, where grimdark has a world in a slow, painful decline, noblebright takes place in a world emerging from darkness. Where grimdark makes clear that all efforts to better the world merely slow down the inevitable, noblebright tells you that every bit of effort and care, no matter how small, matters. Grimdark shows life as disposable and meaningless, noblebright emphasizes that even in the face of mass tragedy, any life you can save is precious. In grimdark, the innocent exist to be victims of the strong, and in noblebright, the innocent deserve to be protected by the strong. And noblebright still maintains that heroes are naive fools... but they can still make a difference.
today I learned that the type of stories I've been writing are noblebright and that it's a direct response to my distaste of grimdark growing up. whoah, thank you for the introspection
People have come out with more "alignments": *Noble-Grim* refers to the characters. Can they change anything? Are they "good" people? *Bright-Dark* refers to the setting: Is it nice or it's all destroyed? But both are extremely vague measures: Warhammer 40k, Paranoia and NieR: Automata are all Grimdark (the world is destroyed and the characters can't change anything), but apart from that, they have next to nothing in common... Using some sci-fi examples: *Noble Bright:* Star Trek... *Noble Neutral:* Mass Effect... *Noble Dark:* Halo Reach... *Neutral Bright:* Star Wars... *True Neutral:* Cosmos by Carl Sagan... *Neutral Dark:* Deus Ex... *Grim Bright:* Mirror's edge... *Grim Neutral:* Fallout new Vegas... *Grim Dark:* I have no mouth and I must scream...
I think I might be able to shed some light on the appeal of "Struggle Against Hopeless Odds", and why it might be found to be inspiring. Essentially, it boils down to a character whose moral principles are so strong that they would rather be moral and suffer for it than be immoral and escape suffering. It's a display of defiance, courage and stoicism. An uncompromising commitment to virtue. The world may be terrible, cruel and evil, but nothing can take away that character's virtue. They will die, or suffer a fate worse than death before they will compromise their morals. It's not that their persistence in the face of hopelessness will be rewarded, it's that their persistence in the face of hopelessness is the ultimate middle finger to a cruel and evil universe.
I don't know that it's really about virtue per se. Plenty of protagonists in Grimdark are truly awful people or serving truly awful regimes (like most of the Imperium in 40K). But I think you're spot on about it being a matter of persistence, and also taking the small victories where they can be had. When things are truly awful, taking what victories you can and just managing to hang on for another day can be enough.
Agreed. But that’s the opposite of stoicism. A stoic believes that if something is in-changeable, it is not worth worrying about or trying to change. Of course, the common usage of the term usually just means someone who doesn’t freak out during emergencies. It’s actually the philosophy of a Roman slave who’s brain couldn’t cope with the physical pain his master put him through on “the rack,” a stretching torture device. What you’re talking about sounds more like ancient Norse philosophy: fate cannot be changed but trying to do so, regardless, makes one a hero.
@@Deris87 well I would disagree. Most people in 40k are "good" people as far as such a thing exists. They are not worse than humans today and even today I personally would argue we as a species are mostly good by nature. In 40k the real distinction is between the ones that have hope and whom do not. Some are just able to do worse thing in the name of humanity than others. The worst inquisitor may kill millions to root out a cult but just because they do think it's their only option (I disregard sadist and other clearly bad people here because I would argue they are in the minority).
I fully agree. For me it is inspiring to read about how people can stand up straight and go though hell knowing they will change nothing just because it's the right thing to do. Shows how dangerous and also defiant humanity can be and that even the worst things won't keep us down. Nuclear war? Climate change? Both terrible disasters best avoided but anyone thinking that something like that will end our species is lying to themselves.
Back on this video a year on, and one section gave me some thoughts. The standing up in the face of hopelessness, even when it fails, I think does have an important element. Because in the real world, the MAJORITY of pushes for the world to get better fail the first dozen times its tried. I think that kind of grimdark story embraces an element of the integrity of doing the right thing even when it fails. Even when you suffer for it. There's been recent talk online about some people falling into "protagonist syndrome", and I think these kinds of stories are (one of many) pushes against that. If you're too steeped in the "the heroes always triumph" narrative to the point of internalizing it, the early set backs or failures can be crushing.
Yup, pretty much. As an "optimistic nihilist" that's more or less my outlook. If nothing matters...We make our own meaning and happiness. And it's up to us to fulfill it.
Me: "See title" I wonder if they're going to mention Warhammer 40k OSP: "Talks for several minutes then expected about Warhammer" Me and every 40k fan that sees this video: ALL HAIL TO THE GOD EMPEROR!!!
To be fair, the """grimdark""" of Ciaphus Cain is that the character has unending imposter syndrome and thus the genuinely heroic things he does are not acknowledged by him as heroic
I can tell you that your assertion that people who deal with real darkness don't do grimdark is far from universal. I worked grim jobs (first career was in lockdown mental health facilities), and many of us read and still read grimdark. That catharsis by proxy can lead to real-life catharsis as well. I dealt with helping people who were considered hopeless cases, my own PTSD, personal tragedy, etc, in part because grimdark gives a safe, emotionally distanced milieu in which to start processing some of the hopelessness, to get beyond the abject hopelessness of the job and find real hope again. In the end, those jobs are not truly hopeless (or no one would bother), but they definitely feel that way when you are in the mire. It's important to process out that hopelessness before you can find hope again. If that means long sessions of Vampire: the Masquerade, or reading Joe Abercrombie, or watching M*A*S*H ("laugh to keep from crying"), then do it.
Same for me man. I find dark stories to be comforting because it gives me characters in situations that I can personally relate to because I've lived through similar times and mental states.
I'm a teacher so a big part of my life is selling the happy, sunshine, positive, "its gonna be okay" brand. After a long day of shining joy out my bung hole I like to come home to some soul crushing misery so that I can be like. "Oh yeah, that, that's what I feel inside." I took this same approach when working with inmates in drug rehab and reform school kids. I have to be happy and positive in recovery and rehabilitation while I listen to the worlds most horrific trauma. The last thing I want to do is go home and keep pretending its all gonna be okay. I guess to torture your metaphor, if everyone around you is in ice water and its your job to save them by working the furnace all day, a dip at the end feels pretty good.
I think Seinfeld is a grimdark setting. None of the characters are good, and in the end the bad guys always win or get away (the main cast). There is no victory, and no progress.
Kind of, if you take away the laugh track and framing they are some twisted individuals. Then again they do go to jail at the end, but only for a year.
@@TheRogueCommand It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia is basically a 21st century version of Seinfeld, with all the characters taken to their logical twisted conclusions. If you have not seen it before, it can get as dark as that sounds.
something i think grimdark has the potential to do really well is demonstrating small moments of humanity in the face of overwhelming horror and devastation. Despite death and despair looming all around, the people in the periphery still persist and live. Seeing people who are minuscule and insignificant to the wider conflicts finding time and energy to act in human ways like finding company in loved ones or finding satisfaction in the routines they have adopted for survival, it is a genuinely hopeful thing to see.
The difference between struggle in grimdark and struggle in other genres is that grimdark shows how admirable struggle is even in the face of ACTUALLY impossible odds. Yea we say “impossible odds” in ever genre, but in many that impossibility is just lip service. We know the hero will win and get a happily ever after. The dragon will go down, the nuke won’t detonate, and the hero will find the courage within himself to make it last in the second. On the other hand watching someone not go down quietly, even knowing they will lose is a different kind of inspiring. Grimdark glorifies the struggle even when it’s pointless whereas in other genres the struggle sometimes seems validated only after victory.
To add to this, I think part of what was missed in the video is that it's not hopless if it works. In Dragon Ball Z I never assume evil is going to win so the hero's giving it their all isn't that inspiring because that's worked literally every time they've tried it. When the Nights Watch holds on the fist of the first men knowing that even if some survive the night many of them will die in the frozen hike back to The Wall and even then they will have to defend the wall against the largest force in centuries with less than half of the strength The Watch had on it's peak. That gesture is inspiring even if they all die, it's not about the results so much as the raw humanity in the attempt.
@@MySerpentine but... that's just... not true? there's no reason that your grimdark heroes can't be well... heroic, they tend pessimistic, but often because the odds against them are likely impossible, that's not a rule though, and the "smiles anyway" type of hero is a trope used from time to time, (that being the type of person who knows that things are bad, and that they can't solve the problems facing them, but, despite the fact that that should have broken them, their defiance is to smile, because if you don't it means they've won.) those types tend to be (at least outwardly) pretty jolly
As someone who both writes a lot of angst and is dealing with trauma, the catharsis isn't the bad stuff, it's what comes after. I write my characters going through hell and then GIVE THEM A GOSH DARN HUG. I focus on supportive friends, working through trauma together, or even just individuals coming to terms with it on their own. For me, the problem with grimdark isn't the bad things that happen, but the lack of catharsis afterwards
I disagree, the best Grimdark stories have that Catharsis it just comes from a different source. I've referred to Berserk a few times in the comments but it's because I believe it's the best Grimdark story ever Guts life sucks, the love of his life is a potato all his friends are dead and his best friend is an uncaring god obsessed with having his own kingdom. In the grand scheme of things he doesn't matter, but there's a cathartic hell yeah everytime he escapes a fight limp draging the dragonslayer behind him and when he does find a new group of allied he trusts you feel all the pain and exhaustion he felt just wash away like he did. It's weird and hard to describe, read Berserk lol
I imagine you would enjoy Brandon Sanderson's Stormlight Archive, if you have not already read it. It's all about broken and abused people finding inner strength and standing strong. I imagine you would enjoy Brandon Sanderson's Stormlight Archive, if you have not already read it. It's all about broken and abused people finding inner strength and standing strong.
@@yordlejay6820 Berserk wouldn't be anywhere near as good as it is if it weren't for Miura being so ready and careful to remind the reader that there was, in fact, good and happiness to be found in Midland, and showing Guts having his ails eased by also being reminded of those things
@@rotciv557 I can agree with this notion, it doesn't make the setting any lighter however imo. The only happiness in Midland is from a kingdom built by an ego maniacle sociopath on the bodies of all his closest compatriots that's run by a demonic army. Other than that the closest thing to happiness is "hey, life may suck ass but at least it sucks ass with people I care about!"
This makes a lot of sense. Despite being enamoured by the sheer scope of some of the 4k character lore, the closest genuine exposer to grimdark was probably the Sins Revenant comic and when I still read that, the characters and situation were enthralling to me at the time, but the biggest drive that kept me up at night reading was to dig through to some glimmer of light, some small victory and a moment of relief, so I could walk away. And then I'd glance at the next chapter and be trapped again.
The tau weren't always mind-controlling genocidal pricks. They used to be the underdog good guys. But nope, in the war-torn future of the 41st century, there can only be grimdark.
Exactly. My problem with the "no hope, everything sucks" people is that their only goal in life seems to be to jerk themselves off over how big-brain they are for knowing that the world has problems. It's a deeply immature and pretentious worldview and I have no respect for it.
@@resm-oe9ji for me its more of a "if you go back far enough in the 'why's, and you dont find an answer other than 'because it is' there is no reason to being"
@@ZeRandomizor why do you need an objective reason to exist in the first place? just say "fuck it we ball" and do what you personally want or think is right
Ok, strange reference, but in third grade we read a book called Anastasia Krupnik, about a little girl who has very realistic little girl problems, like her parents are having a baby brother she didn’t want, and her grandma is a rambling old lady who she finds frustrating. But there’s a scene where she goes to the college class her father is teaching and he encourages her to listen in and participate if she wants to. The topic of the day is a “I wandered lonely as a cloud” and one of the students just says it reminds him of the futility of life. Her father tells her afterwards that this student says that about every poem, and that even though her grandma has very little going on in her life, she’s not a nihilistic loser like that guy, because her memories are happy and loving and it gives her life meaning. Red’s line makes me think of that bit- you can choose to be sad about it and be hopeless, or you can choose to believe that things will be better and have been better.
Reilly Maresca don’t forget the Ahriman, Night lord, Chiapas Cain, Imperial guard, Eldar, Esionhorn, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Ultramarine, and Gaunt Ghost’s omnibuses and those are just the top of my head.
Grimdark, or at least good Grimdark, doesn't tell you you're stupid for having hope - it simply just doesn't provide you with that hope. And a lot of stories will then explore how the simple effort, progress, etc. are valuable in and of themselves; but it never punishes a character for hoping. And Grimdark isn't the only genre to explore this (e.g. horror), with many of them punishing fairly indiscriminately. Personally, I think the Soulsborne series are good examples of what would constitute good Grimdark. The don't tend to provide much hope for the characters or the worlds their in, but they don't punish them for having that hope in the first place. Also, I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream.
Yeah, I was wondering on why I can't agree with her I'm a Soulsborn fan ^^" They are really depressing, they show you that the end is always the same : Death Death of mind, death of body, death of soul, death of era, etc There is change, not for the best but not for the good But always with the death of something Grimdark is not a genre in itself who bring something, it is a setting for ephemeral thoughts It is not punish hope but show that hope didn't change something in itself, acts can Thank you for your comment, it really awaken something :D
@@gwendaljambu4310 In that case, it's a dark and gritty setting, not necessarily grim dark. In grim dark, those acts wouldn't have accomplished anything.
@@TheRealOtakuEdits Only Red include a non-meaning ending as a really essential point of the genre Even in 40K, if humankind stop fighting they just dead, so it is not meaningless either
@@gwendaljambu4310 if human kind fights they die, they keep themselves alive by sending soldiers out dying which is not much better than bieng dead period considering they lose entire planets worth of populations and barely make a dent into the forces of chaos or the tyranids, it's delaying the inevitable and even in the video games there are only 1 or 2 endings where humanity just barely survives.
@@lurkingllama8364 It's an eldar talking to another eldar who is in the midst of despair. Also he's a Phoenix Lord, one of the great heroes of their people. Asurmen in general is a pretty nice dude tbh, he even laments in an internal monologue about how the eldar's failure helped lead to the downfall of the Imperium, and pines for the days when the eldar and humans shared the universe in relative peace.
@Rick K yeah because the flesh tearers and the marine malevolents are really stand up guys who respect and not eat the citicens of the imperoum (FYI i love the flesh tearers lore being grimdark jesus's angry borderline psickotick children of their brood)
@Rick K Wut? Marines are a bunch of mentally stunted children turned into killing machines who have a deep emotional disconnect from their regular humans counterparts, which is part of the reason many turn to chaos. That's pretty grim dark IMHO.
Red: "and someone who fought in WWII-" Me: "Wait, I thought he fought in WWI." *does some research* So yeah, he fought in WWI but also he was recruited to be a codebreaker in WWII. Was inactive, but he went through the training for it. I just... thought that was a really cool fun fact about our boy Jrrt.
I hadn't known that about Tolkien, but IMHO it's perfectly in character. He would have agreed with Churchill that Hitler needed to be fought and beaten. He even said as much in The Lord of the Rings: "Always, after a despite and a respite, the Shadow takes a new shape and grows again." "I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo. "So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But it is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us." BTW, this is one big thing that people like me don't like about grimdark. There are no places like the Shire, or people like the Hobbits -- in short, nothing and no one worth fighting FOR.
@Sean Bigay Same. I run a DnD homebrew game, and while it has its dark moments, my players would probably be sapped of all motivation to help if I didn't have locations and NPCs they'd be willing to protect. I'm glad that they love it when I describe how their actions affect the world around them. Even if it's something small like "you've motivated Boblin the Goblin to run for mayor. "
That depends on your definition of “winning”. To the Orks this is the best possible time to be alive. Nothing but war and chaos? What a time to be an Ork! It’s paradise.
i mean i rekon in warhammer fanstey its the only setting where you can a war of rat methheads nuking,using flamerthowers and miniguns to fight shoomed up goblins ,while drawfs use bombers its so over the top that i gotta love it
Alright, so here are the other 5 memes this community likes to use: -Sly Marbo -For the Emperor -Heresy -everything emperor tts -not really one, but trying to interpret the lore so that characters look really cute and/or relatable.
Choronzon: "I am Anti-Life, the Beast of Judgment. I am the dark at the end of everything. The end of universes, gods, worlds... of everything. Sss. And what will you be then, Dreamlord? " Morpheus: "I am hope.” - Neil Gaiman's "The Sandman"
Honestly, I still don't get how Dream won with that. In the Sandman Universe, even Death will die once she locks the Universe, with not even the afterlife left behind. Hope really isn't worth that much when there is no one left to hope.
SORA The thing about hope, that everyone forgets, is that it persists. Even past the individual. The only way to defeat hope is to end everything, and in that end there is no one left to win. And this "What power would hell have if those imprisoned here would not be able to dream of heaven?"
SORA and yet the end mean nothing when in come to hope If religion tell us that even if judgement day happen we’ll be save If the science tell us that heat death of the universe will not be end of life And in a superhero world where a this series is taking place and deal with such threat multiple time than the End isn’t forever but hope is
Thanks for the Terry Pratchett quote. I hope more Americans become familiar with his Discworld series. I feel like only British and Canadians actually know of the guy. Also, thanks for confirming that Batman isn't Grimdark
Nah, as someone from the American South, I love Pratchett. One of my all time favorite characters of anything is Rincewind! Love that cowardly, selfish, yet courageous, selfless wizard.
I grew up in the 90's and was so bored to tears of grimdark I could've wasted away from its withering gaze, but I've come to appreciate it despite myself. You're absolutely right that hope and kindness are as realistic as misfortune and ill intent. However, I think there's also an... energizing irony to the absurdity within grimdark media that doesn't get enough credit. I'm just saying, sometimes a desperate, brooding space marine blasting chthonic eldritch horrors in a dead zone is hype as fuuuuck.
That is more the mishandling the grimdark style or over relaying on it even the namesakes fandom joke about it in the form of "in the grimdark future of grimdark grimdarkness."
As someone born in the early 2000's, I felt like I got an equally-large blast of grimdark. It didn't help that I was severely depressed and self-loathing as a child. Now that I'm an adult I am so much more optimistic and loving about the world as a whole and about concepts like hope, so the idea of people saying that you become pessimistic growing up always made me laugh
Just a note, RE: the point made at around 9:20, JRR Tolkein fought in world war _one_, not two. That fact actually serves the point better; he contracted trench fever after having taken part in offensives in the battle of the Somme, one of the darkest chapters in all of modern human warfare
@@jacquelinej4819 Absolutely; the aesthetic of evil taking over the world (best seen in Mordor and the industrialisation of Isengard) and removing trees and greenery, leaving only blasted, poisonous wasteland also seems to me to take heavy inspiration from the wartorn battlefields of WW1, too
i think what warhammer taps into isn't happiness or joy, but the motivation of a lost cause, a last stand. i don't know about everybody, but to some people that hopefull feeling of "we're not lost so long as people are still fighting" is what makes warhammer feel so awesome.
The third reason mentioned for why people like grimdark stories, that seeing people persevere in the face of hopelessness is inspiring, actually does make sense. Shonen characters struggling against overpowered villains is not the same thing. In the end, they’ll win through nakama power or talk no jutsu or a superpowered ass-pull. Or they’ll die and go through an afterlife training arc before getting wished back into existence stronger than ever. A grimdark struggle is inherently sisyphean. There’s a certain contradiction. The rational thing to do is give up and quietly let entropy win, and yet these characters have the personal sense of meaning and the strength of will to struggle on. They know they’ll lose. We know they’ll lose. There is no hope. But they spit in the face of that hopelessness. The grimdark setting will grind them into dust, but up until that happens, they continue on. The grit they demonstrate to try to live a life - any life - in defiance of a hollow existence is very aspirational. It’s equal parts stoicism and existentialism. The Stranger by Camus and No Exit by Sartre are two excellent stories to read to really understand that mindset.
That’s one reason I liked the female protagonist of Persona 3. Lost her parents to supernatural events, thrown into a fight against demons in an unknowable tower that takes a year to ascend, and the world at large grows pessimistic, even nihilistic under a curse... and she never stops being AGGRESSIVELY HAPPY. Like, she will one-woman carry this pity party to the other side on smiles and sacrifice with zero complaints. It’s not healthy, but neither is giving in, so she *chooses* happiness in an increasingly hopless world. Two of her possible boyfriends will die or disappear. You would hope that in the end, her strength is rewarded, but inevitably, she’ll die. Never gets to let her guard down, never gets to see tomorrow. Unlike pure grimdark, the world lives on, but on a personal scale... she doesn’t. (And on a meta-scale, the makers of the game have deemed her non-cannon, and ignore her in related media). It’s sad, but powerful. She’s not happy because she’s in a good place, but she’s doing everything in her power to *make* it a good place.
The Stranger is a strange example to give considering that it is more of a commentary on early "grimdark", considering that the setting is not grim or dark at all. It is the protagonist that is so. He sees himself as a reflection of the uncaring world when that uncaring world is a reflection of his own apathy, not an inherent quality.
I think I can articulate Grimdark appeal #3: showing a even an extremely flawed hero in a dark and cruel world helps highlight their heroism. Heroes in other stories can expect to be at least somewhat rewarded for their efforts, but heroes in Grimdark scenarios can't. This is an example of heroism for it's own sake, doing what is right because it is right without any expectation of reciprocity, and the existence of such a character can give the reader hope that humanity as a whole can become better.
Well said. Triumph needn't be the reason to do what is right. Even if good is the weed and evil is the garden, good will keep sprouting no matter how many times it is ripped up by its roots. That something many people from 'optimisitic' parts of the world don't understand.
Yeah, that's my reason to like Grimdark. It showcases that being good it's his own reward, and that's why there is none. Also, Grimdark does something rather fun in my opinion: every little ray of light and hope becomes way more interesting due to the fact that it can be snuffed out at any given moment, which you know it's not gonna happen in other genres. I don't care for "misery porn" where there is zero hope and no really human characterization, but when you have a little speck, a little humanity, it really "shines" on the "Grimdarkness" of the entire story, even if it gets destroyed at the end.
15:45 I mean, that's kind of the point. It's not about being rewarded for persistence, it's that persistence exists at all. About how the effort still had value even if all you achieved was something worse.
It's not bad to value persistence as a virtue but when you read a grimdark story where the theme is unambiguously all bad with no hope, virtue has to be projected into it. And you can read anything into anything, which doesn't give grimdark a pass.
@@HistoryTwistedInc A candle is brightest when it's in the pitch-black darkness. You don't get to dismiss pretty damned clear messages as "projections." Mileage might vary by story, and the point stands. Maybe you don't get it, but it's pretty clear that a lot of people in the comments do.
@@zedek_ I don't mean for it to be a dismissal. If someone's life is improved by reading a story a certain way, they should. But that is a reader's prerogative, not something that makes grimdark for everyone.
@@HistoryTwistedInc He didn't say it's for everyone though, he explained why a hopeless struggle can be encouraging. As @Zedek said, in the deepest darkness a single spark can seem like an inferno. That's setting aside that not every story has to actively improve a life, unless spending an enjoyable time reading it counts. Many struggles in life might be hopeless, or seem hopeless to us, grimdark could be say to show that, even if you can't win, some things are simply worth fighting for regardless of the result.
@@TheArnaug Its more than just not enjoying it, which is why i think it's important to stress that it really isnt for everyone and even when people consume it, its best in moderation. She's a bit biased but I have to agree with Red that grimdark can be actively harmful. It can depress people who need hope and fester apathetic nihilism in people who dont want it. And in case this is a semantics case that we diverge on, I'll say that dark stories that have hope within them are good if executed right but I dont know how that differs it from a normal story with dark themes rather than a grimdark story. Maybe I have the wrong understanding of the word.
As others have pointed out: grimdark's "hope against all odds" takes on a different meaning than when it's in other settings. When you know the protagonist will win and save the day, hope is nothing more than an expectation of conventional story telling. When you know the protagonist will lose everything at the end of it all, hope is the desire for a happy ending despite all evidence to the contrary. Hope IRL feels a lot more like the second. We can't /expect/ a personal happy ending. But no matter how grim things look, we have to keep fighting. It's noble to do so. A soldier still deserves to be honored, even if he was on the losing side. As someone with the Big Sad, the message of "it's worth putting up a fight whether or not you win" is a hopeful thing to hear. (But I agree that grimdark is best in moderation)
This. This is exactly. Grimdark hope is completely unique from other genre variants. When you start reading the Punisher or Berserk you expect the main character go out in a blaze of metal and death and drag as many awful people to hell with him as they can. Four or five books later you're beginning to truly hope that maybe someday they might actually succeed, and that's why struggling against impossible seeming odds has value all it's own. A struggle without hope can still create or inspire hope.
Tolken served in WW1, his son in the second one. Add the scouring of the shire was loosly based on his "idealic hometown" being destroyed by industrialism
But the Harrowing of the Shire still happens. Basically the grim ending of LOTOR is completely undone, and the Shire is set back on a path to being de-industrialized.
“Yeah, uhm, we were usin’ the hot bits on our communications equipment, right, to heat up our rations. And, uhm, today, someone, I don’t know who, someone spilled the nutrient broth, erm, inside, th- uhm, th-the- the electric bits, and now it’s like, uhm, sparkin’ and not workin’.”
[translated from binary] Uhhhhhhh...... pray to it for 3 hours and light incense candles to appease it every day for one week.....that should do it....I think.....
Brandon Sanderson has defined grimdark like the genre where if you do a morally good choise, the outcome is negative and the fact that some character do it anyway shows how much is important for them doing the right decision at a high cost, so I think that can be heros in grimdark and can be heroic but their heroism cost to them instead of being acclaimed for it
The most grimdark aspect of the imperium isn't how everything sucks, but rather how indifferent it is to loss of lives. If you're an imperial guard officer reporting the deaths of 1 million troopers, the administratum will tell you why you're wasting their time with such minor issues; meanwhile if you used deathstrike missiles (which is exactly the same as missiles we have today) on the enemy without doing weeks of paperwork justifying it, instead of sacrificing a few thousand men, you'll be in trouble with the Adeptus Mechanicus.
More a consiquence of the size of the Imperium combined with the number of its enemies than its no suprise that the Imperium is so calus in its approch to life take the Vikings as the brutality they show is due to the harsh evironment that they came from as the population exploded during their time take for example the terror tactics used by Ragnar Lothbrok.
@@drascin it is but to 40ks credit its more in the setting than it being the main focus of its stories they usually mention it as the cause of its problem in more ways than one like say the siege of vrax where the calusness of the imperials cost them more than they gain like letting an incompitent general lead an army of death seeking soldires, the Dark Angels leaving the battle (infamous for their calus disregard for their allies to hide their shameful history) ect.
@@drascin as strange as this may sound there is one character that basically commited a series of mass murders on a system wide scale to devert a hive fleet of Tyranids (think Zerg on steroids) and was excommunicated and made a non person by the Imperium because of the shear scale of blood shead and deam his deeds heretical yes even though the Imperium has low respect to its people they still at least see some value in its citizenry.
OSP: makes grimdark video 40k fans: “Hippity hoppity this comments section is now PROPERTY OF THE IMPERIAL INQUISITION, REPORT ANY CRITICISM TO THE NEAREST COMMISSARIAT”
[Commissar Cain defers such criticism to his aide, Jurgen, who knows how to filter out the actually important bits so the Commissar himself can focus on more important things (like drinks and women)]
“Hope is what makes us strong! It is why we are here! It is what we fight with, when all else is lost...” -Pandora, God of War Came to mind when she started talking about Hope at the end.
A common misconception about Grimdark is that the bad guys win, the good guys lose in the most horrendously nightmarish ways. Its about pushing through to the bitter end. Note 'Bitter End'. Not Good End. But it isn't Bad End either. Where other tropes focus on the end of the story, Grimdark concerns itself with the struggle as it happens and uses that as the focus. I had a comment on my Rylanor video that I think perfectly encapsulates Grimdark. Pardon for anyone reading this and is unaware of what I'm going to talk about next: Rylanor dies. The reformed Thousand Sons dies. They failed in killing Fulgrim but wounded his pride. Fulgrim didn't get what he wanted. No one will remember Rylanor's final defiance against Fulgrim. But Fulgrim, the one that NEEDS to remember will. And that wounding of his pride will forever gnaw at him. No one leaves truly victorious. That being said, I think a fourth staple of grimdark should be that both the protagonist and antagonist need to come out of the conflict broken. You can tell that Last Stands in grimdark settings are my absolute favorite. But still, I can understand how it isn't for everyone. I mean, the first time I dipped into 40k, it shook me to the core. But then I dug deeper and found something I really REALLY love about it. "Grimdark sucks and nothing will make it better". And that's the beauty of it. Despite everything being terrible, you do not give up, you do not kneel, you do not surrender. No matter how broken or or overburdened you are, or no matter how terrible the outcome despite your struggles, you will carry on. You must. "Do not go gentle into that good night. Rage, rage against the dying of the light."
@Mikhail G incompetent writers make Grimdark just dark like painting an entire room black because black is his favorite color (looking at you Neil Drunkman) good writers use it as a statment against a dark oppresive world.
“The Imperium is like a man hanging from a cliff with one arm and without the strength to pull himself back up. He could use his other hand to hold on just a little longer, but he’s busy using it to give the finger to all the bastards watching him dangle.”
The key point of grimdark - which gets skipped over in poor writing - is that oftentimes _nobody_ really "wins" in the end. It's all shit. The thing about persevering despite this is that the catharsis that comes from a story about stubborn perserverance lies in the payoff; the "victory" at the end, no matter how small or pyrrhic. The point of grimdark as a genre, however, is to undermine and downplay that victory, thereby ruining the inspiration and imposing the nihilistic idea that preserverence is ultimately pointless.
Small note about Tolkien: he actually fought in World War One. In WWII he was a codebreaker.
Thank you; I was going to point that out. Mordor draws a lot of inspiration for the bleakness of trench warfare.
@@stephenskinner7207 Although Tolkien himself hated it when people called LotR a WW1 allegory.
Being inspired by his experiences doesn’t mean the work became an allegory for them
@@MrSamulai Man's not a fan of allegory. Can't say I disagree with that
@@JackClockerinos II think it was more that people comparing his books to WW1 often undervalued how he took far more inspiration from old sagas and his family (basically what the Tolkien film did).
"Hope is a myth used to motivate men to do what they cannot"
"Y'know pal... You almost say that like it's a bad thing" - Superman
Zac Snyder: Who are you? Where’s my Stoic Glaring God?
Superman: Which god Darkside cause I ain't a god just a person that wants to do good
baller quote by superman
Then it really isn't myth anymore, is it?
"Super or not still a man and i am a God" -Darkside
"Children already know monsters exist. We tell them these stories so that they know monsters can be killed."
Or alternatively placated with gifts and odd habits/behaviors/rituals.
And let's not forget monster fetish people...
@@laurenkirby97 you're not adding anything to the quote, you don't appear to understand what it means.
@@moredetonation3755 Nope, not in the slightest...
Pretty sure this is the original:
"Fairy tales do not tell children the dragons exist. Children already know that dragons exist. Fairy tales tell children the dragons can be killed." - G.K. Chesterton
You grow up when you realize that while monsters can be killed, no one can be bothered to kill them.
"There is no happy ending."
Except the orks in 40k, all they care about and want is war, and the world of Warhammer has plenty of it.
The only sad ending for an ork would have to be, like, the flu or something.
WAAAAAGGFFHHHHH!!!! - A Happy Ork
@@PanthereaLeonis I’m not sure they believe in disease, so they can’t catch it.
yeah they're just living Valhalla
The Orks Grimdark is that they can never have fights that their ancestors (Krorks) had.
"Grimda-"
The 40k community, bursting through the wall: *Hello*
Nobody expects the Imperial Inquisition! Our weapon is surprise! Surprise and Exterminatus!
The Imperial Fists are rebuilding that wall you destroyed
You should have added a "there"
Euan Smith And our fanatical devotion to the God Emperor!
*Teleports from orbit into the newly rebuilt wall*
Tolkein actually has an interesting defense of Grimdark in his essay about Beowulf "The Monsters and the Critics". In it, he describes the pagan Norse worldview as a functional way to cope with a miserable, doomed existence without the eternal hope/salvation offered by a Christian faith they have yet embrace. To paraphrase: "they gave the darkness victory, but no glory. By putting all of their faith in the value of doomed resistance they created a worldview that was impregnable to the tragedies of reality."
This is actually very good take. No matter how bad the world is around you, as long as you try to leave a mark and live with your head held high it doesn't matter if you fail in the end. You gave your best, even if it wasn't enough.
Makes sense Grimdark has been super popular the past 2 decades then...
And this is pretty much what the Silmarillion is about. The Dark Lord Morgoth had corrupted the world beyond repair. While he was defeated physically, he still had won.
Sauron created the Ring so he couldn't be killed, his boss Morgoth tainted the world and thus could never be utterly removed, without said world being destroyed.
Therefore I wholeheartedly disagree with Red pitting GRRM "grimdark" ASOIAF (it really isn't that grimdark) against Tolkien's "not grimdark" work. Tolkien's legendarium is pretty grim and pretty dark. Doomed to go downhill before the world's creation was even completed, because Morgoth was a spiteful bastard and wanted to rebell against Daddy.
It fits. They had literally planned out the death of their gods in exacting detail.
It ties into the Norse ideal of a hero, it wasn’t someone who could kill and beat everyone easily, there was that aspect though. Rather a hero was someone who in the face of certain defeat still fought, a person who mentally overcame the tragedy of this world to still continue onwards. It is very similar to Logotherapy or Mans Search for Meaning by Victor Frankel.
"Both optimists and pessimists contribute to our society. The optimist invents the airplane and the pessimist the parachute.”
- G.B. Stern
That’s actually a clever thought.
Dang, that is a really interesting perspective to seeing it
I would argue that the optimist would build a parachute because, well they think it can be of use in that moment, a true pessimist would think that once a plain starts crashing there is no surviving.
That sounds inaccurate and really stupid
@@vintheguy my thoughts exactly.
4:32 Regarding this, imagine how awesome it would be to see the opposite. Take a character that feels straight out of 40K and plop them in an extremely hopeful, heroic setting and see the cheerful atmosphere erode the shell of grimdark around them and put light back in their life.
That doesnt work Always. How would a Krieg deal with that? He would kill himself. Because thats what they do
Take a lamenter and put it in any other fictional universe, seriously just do it
@@Your_Average_Warlord_Titan Every 40k fan ever: Please, let the Lamenters get something good happen to them
I think centaur world did something like that with horse and the centaurs
I swear someone made a comic about like a guardsman being put on some kinda like happy rural world
The core question of Grimdark: Everything sucks. Which flavour of suck are you okay with?
I'll have the monochrome rainbow flavor please
Exactly, it’s which lesser evil are you willing to stomach, or in some cases greater evil if you are rooting for like Chaos, the Tyranids, necrons....
Thank you for your answer. We will now give you every other kind of suck, but that specific kind of suck. Why? Because Grimdark, even the suck sucks.
I mean... out of everything in 40K, I would go with the imperium of man because that’s the one we’re I get to live and not get murdered by Aliens and demons XD
@@CrimsonBlasphemy Jokes on you that's what I wanted all along
“And just because a story is depressing that doesn’t mean it’s deep or complex” Ben Yahtzee Croshaw
I only wrote this because a, comment with out replys looks naked to me.
@@felipeortiz8832
And just because the good guys win that doesn't mean the story is hopeful or inspiring.
@@Wesker10000 Glorious Bastards comes to mind
I personally dont really like Yahtzee but every so often the man makes a really good point
"So much death. What can man do against such reckless hate?" "Ride out with me. Ride out and meet them." - J.R.R Tolkien
Guess that's how the last charge at Helms Deep was made
Good example of a Grimdark Moment used well.
@@mojolotz I wouldn't call this a grimdark moment at all, actually. Firstly, this moment does have clearly defined heroes firmly on the side of good, so already two of the grimdark qualities are missing: lack of heroes and lack of morality. Secondly, I wouldn't even call the situation devoid of hope. The entirety of Lord of the Rings is driven forward by the hope of a better world (which is definitely achievable), just like in real life. "Ride out with me" wouldn't be an act of desperation in the face of a dark and uncaring world; it would be an act of courage and fellowship, one of goodness and, yes, hope that it can make some difference. Lotr is very powerful and true to life like that.
I freaking love this line.
“If this is to be their end, I would have them make such an end as to be worthy of remembrance.”
I was called naive and was 'protected' for being kind and polite. And as I got older, I almost fell for it, in that I almost gave up on being kind. Then, my dad passed away. In my memory, he loved my kindness, and he always supported me and though he didn't have favourite children, mom always says that I was his favourite. I really miss him, but kindness in the face of negativity shows my strength and kindness shows the influence of my dad and my Father in my life.
I'm sorry for your loss, but I'm glad to know you didn't give up.
@@lego007guym8 Thank you ^-^ I decide every day to keep going
Cheers to that, Zen. To all the people who choose to be good above all else. 🍺
give it some time. that'll get beaten out of you.
@@thisgoddamusernamestoodamnlong They haven't succeeded in 23 years, I have good hopes for the future.
"There are no happy endings"
Well there is Tuska the Daemon-Killa, happiest creature in 40k, fighting for eternity
Ah, the ork that found Orky Valhalla.
And then you have Trazyn the infinite, happily collecting artefacts to keep parts of the universe alive.
ORKZ IZ DA HAPPIEST GITS OV DEM ALL!!
"The Doom Slayer"
"The Orks are the pinnacle of creation. For them, the great struggle is won. They have evolved a society which knows no stress or angst. Who are we to judge them? We Eldar who have failed, or the Humans, on the road to ruin in their turn? And why? Because we sought answers to questions that an Ork wouldn't even bother to ask! We see a culture that is strong and despise it as crude." - Eldar Philosopher, Uthan the Perverse's thoughts on Orks
Re: 40k
There’s a tank shaped like a pipe organ. The moral debate between cynicism and idealism is not what draws people to this game.
Who gets the pipe organ? I want to be on that side
@@witherblaze The Sisters of Battle are for you then.
@@johnbones3455 thank you. I will now frantically find funny songs to be played while the tank kills all
So basically, it's a terrible universe to live in, but a very fun one to visit.
@@legoworld246 That’s about the size of it, yeah.
Re: 40k...That's why I like the Orks, they're the only faction that's having FUN.
Only when they have enough dakka.
The question is... How much dakka is enough dakka?
@@sarahgraves6759 Not enough
@@sarahgraves6759 how dare you imply there is EVER an upper limit on how much dakka is good
@@sarahgraves6759 There is never enough Dakka
This is Bug erasure
“There are no happy endings”
Those two guardsmen who discovered a knife stl and both got planets to retire on:
but that isn't very grimdark now is it
@@lv100Alice No, but that's partially the point; jokes aside of course.
Those guardsmen retired to a planet, which is a victory in and of itself. However, what happens afterwards? Entirely regardless of whether or not the audience sees it, that "victory" is temporary at best on the galactic scale. They will still die: whether from old wounds, old age, or the myriad of galactic threats. They may have achieved victory in the short term, but the Grimdark always gets you.
That's one of the things that makes it awesome. Whether or not you WILL lose tomorrow, you won today. Cherish that.
A knife STC? Can the Mechanicus not mass produces knives or are STC's so ridiculously valuable that even if one is found to be useless, its existance as Imperium property is good enough
@@armintor2826 Your latter question hits the nail on the head directly and firmly. Regardless to whether or not it is an STC fragment that is already possessed, the Imperium does not have the resource to replace them. By having a spare, should the worst ever come to pass and the first is destroyed somehow: well we have another, thank the Emperor.
That doesnt change the Overall outlook of the setting. 40k is a grimdark setting, and as mentioned, some of the stories are not grimdark stories, they are just in the grimdark setting of 40k
_Mentions Grimdark_
*BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE!*
Imagine being a farmer in Warhammer 40K
I get to be the first reply to Justin Y. !?!?!
ABANDON REASON KNOW ONLY WAR
*pulls out dagger* HELL YEAH!
@@destructionray2917 abandon all hope! you are the second reply
"In any other year, I'd have called that unrealistic." red hits that snark HARD sometimes.
Good lord what is it with internet writers and snark *looks towards jp beauan*
it's just a little too overly sarcastic
Ohhhh yes. I loved that
Me: "true....*sighs* true...."
Not really if mankind can survive a nuclear missle crisis, countless more devestating plauges and natural disasters than mankind can survive this plauge.
Red: In 40k, there are no winners
Orkz: laughs in eternal war, something that they thrive on.
"Orkses is never defeated in battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fighting so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!"
*imagines the galaxy full of orks* Well shit.
THATS CUS ORKS DA BEST AROND
Chaos is the main winner. They can't lose and they are the most powerful faction even when divided
Saturnine has big implications for Chaos
Christian Dauz idk what effect Orks have on Chaos though. The thing about Chaos is that it needs things to feed it. If it comes down to Orks, who can’t really be corrupted by Chaos, Tyranids, who Chaos can’t comprehend, and Chaos; my bet is on the Tyranids personally. The thing about Orks, as so eloquently explained above, is that they don’t lose. Sometimes they don’t win, but that doesn’t count.
Tolkien: writes one of the darkest settings one could think of, filled with ancient evils, eldritch horrors, and a lingering sense of dread as you are slowly corrupted by the One Ring. And that's not even getting into the Silmarillion.
Also Tolkien: writes Tom Bombadil.
Warhammer is darker
@@jadynbaxter5692
Not relevant.
@@jadynbaxter5692 Tolkien was earlier whats your point
@@blasphemer_amon ok? Did I say that warhammer was earlier? I said it’s darker and the lore is much vaster
@@enderthedark5843 it kinda is…. The topic was dark universes so I stated one, dunno what your getting at 💀💀💀
“Dying after successfully doing their one thing is the only satisfying conclusion” -Red, on every single character from Dark Souls
Grimdark settings
Oh my god the protagonist dies.
Anyway
_We'll be swingin' when we're winnin'. We'll be swingin'._
_I get murdered, but I get up again! You're not ever gonna keep me down!_ (repeat ×4)
_Fighting the night away; fighting the night away._
_He drinks an Estus flask, he eats a mossy clump,_
_He eats humanity, he drinks an Estus flask._
_He swings swords that remind him of the good times,_
_He swings swords that remind him of the better times._
_Oh, Patchy Boy, Patchy Boy, Patchy Boy..._
[Refrain]
Thou she has a misconseption that all Grimdark protagonists always die they don't take Wilard from Apocalypse Now he manages to complete his mission and leave Vietnam the problem is Vietnam never left him.
@@forickgrimaldus8301 Yup. Grimdark isn't about death of protagonists, what is common occurrence even in lighter series. General idea is that world is really crappy place and people usually fight only for survival instead any epic adventures. Usually without real hope for the future. Still contrary to popular believe people can be happy locally, even if for short time. Good example of this theme is Warhammer, bad edgy 90's BS.
@@TheRezro yes absolutely the 40k universe is known for dark humor and over the top ironic humor. This also help spark the gem that is "if the emperor has a text to speech device".
When Red mentioned the Eldar partying so hard they created a Chaos God, my mind instantly went "I believe the term you are searching for is, Murder-fucking"
Chaos god murder-fucked into existence
Indeed, that IS the technical term.
yep
" So you murder-fucked the most horrific of the chaos gods into reality, gave it total ownership of your souls and now you cling to existence as your essence is being constantly siphoned into a void of eternal torture of your own making... and we are the savage primatives?"
"Correct you filthy mon-keigh"
@@barrylyndon5552 I mean do keep in mind they spent the last 60 million years ruling the galaxy after the Necrons went into statis and their Godlike Toad creators are likely all dead.
This is likely something they just can't grasp.
Obligatory C.S. Lewis quote: "Since it is so likely that [children] will meet cruel enemies, let them at least have heard of brave knights and heroic courage. Otherwise you are making their destiny not brighter but darker."
Any idea on the sauce of that quote? I appreciate his philosophizing...mostly...and I want a bit of ammo to stave off my own descent into grimdark about the actual world I'm living in right now.
I have to disagree to an extent, I think that we should have heroes (too an extent) but they do need to be believable, and we should of course encourage moral complexity. Heroes should never be pure or perfect, they should fail at times, and sometimes they should even be immoral (so they can learn from it).
Heck it's also important for nuanced villains, because ultimately kids should also know that those 'cruel enemies' are still human beings who probably have understandable motives. Maybe by encouraging nuanced villains we encouraged people to deal with each other via understanding instead of crushing their opponents mercilessly
@@AeneasGemini I mean yeah. I don't think anything in the quote really goes against that. I see it as being more about having heroes at all, instead of the grimdark idea of everyone being a terrible person. A flawed person overcoming their flaws is still, in my mind, a heroic action.
Wish more people would realize that a good person is actually realistic and that even dark stories benefit from such because it makes the whole thing more believable and adds weight. You want to know what one of 40Ks best stories is?
It's the story where some Space Marines make a hard decision while traversing ork-infested territory and run into a mother and her young child also trying to escape. And the hard choice they make? *Bringing her along with them because it's the right thing to do* rather than leaving two insignificant civilians to their fate. They do the right thing not because it's easy but because it is the right thing, even though it makes their mission harder. Yet so many "realistic" stories that are really just grimdark would have the mother and child left behind while extolling the virtue of making "hard decisions" that are actually taking the easy way out for the guy making the choice.
@@Luke_Danger I mean the example you gave doesn't make the Space Marines good people though, it just shows they can do a selfish good deed.
As a thing to add, I personally find SOME grimdark refreshing. As someone with clinic depression and severe anxiety, watching someone in a undeniably worse situation and truly hopeless one at that, never giving up and continuing to claw forward can be serve as a bit of a recharge. Sure this person is fictional and the world cartoonishly dark and grim, but they still have hope no matter how much the setting wants to crush it.
Also woo to learn Red plays 40k! or at least did.
I completely agree; that whole "indomitable human spirit vs the cruel, indifferent universe" concept is one that's stayed in my mind for a long while now, driving me forward. Easily one of the best ways to write a story in my opinion.
This is honestly why I love dark and horrific stories in general. It kinda gives me the feeling of "if they can make it through something this terrible, maybe I can as well."
Yea, I get that
I don't mind _some_ darkness (ie: The World of Darkness/Shadowrun/Cyberpunk role-playing games), I'd just rather not be surrounded by it 24/7, thankyouverymuch!
@@lego007guym8 Play Fate Grand Order... same substance, better massage, brighter world and more waifu...
Better for your health too.
I would argue that the first rule should be reworded. It's not that there are no heroes in grimdark, it's that they *don't matter.* One person with ideals will never be enough. They can win victory after victory but, at the end of the day, it's all pointless for one reason or another. The Ciaphas Cain novels are a good example. Cain saves lives, cities, worlds, hell entire sectors, but for every one of those he saves the nightmares of the 40k galaxy take ten times that amount.
Not pointless, those people and cities and worlds saved is better than no one saved
@Annalise Did Ciaphas Cain stopping a battle with the Tau before it started do jack shit for Cadia before the planet broke?
If one expects total victory in an unbeatable enemy than one is a fool if one achives small victories in the face of overwhelming odds than one is a hero and the act of heroisim alone should be praised.
Its like this person only values heroes that win and not those that are beaten but no broken by their enemies.
@NotYourGreatestPlan grimdark contrary to popular belief has good moral characters even if their in a flawed world take niteowl for example and people that don't see that should probably read something else.
Good grimdark doesn't say "you're stupid if you believe you can win." Good grimdark says "even if you can't win, fighting on for a valorous cause and doing the right thing is its own reward."
@Trobbins1992 though the Lion was always a tantrum prone stuck up piece of shit.
I feel like there is hope, but it's somewhere else than the main conflict
Stab Death in the eye with a chainsaw and scream "I'M READY, HOW 'BOUT YOU!?"
That's precisely what makes stories like Berserk so interesting and thrilling to read
*Cries in Cadia*
One part of "The Lord of the Rings" that has really stuck with me over the years is the part where Frodo & Sam come across a statue the orcs vandalized, knocking off the head and replacing it with a boulder they painted with a leering ugly face.
But Frodo points out the head of the statue lying nearby wearing a new crown of flowers.
"They can't win forever." Frodo tells Sam.
He was a catholic, after all 😛
That scene was the cover image on the version of The Two Towers I got in junior high.
Beautiful. I really need to get the Lord of the Rings books and read them. Thanks for this. Also, it just shows that what any story should do above all else is juxtaposition i.e. balance out the themes and tones.
@@AHGrayLensman Do you know wich edition? I would love to see that cover art.
The orcs were mostly peaceful. Don't let the hobbit propaganda tell you any differently.
"The setting can be grimdark, but the stories don't have to be."
Ehhhhhhh, I guess? I mean a non-grimdark story in a grimdark setting would fit in about as well as a death scene in Thomas the tank engine
@@GremlinEnby horrifyingly in place?
@@seal8900 bad example, a better one would be a r-rating on a Disney movie
@@GremlinEnby Deadpool?
Hey hey people
someone: why are your comics so sad? this is completely ignoring canon
guy about to invent grimdark: oh you haven't heard?
This is GRIMMDARK!
I know something interesting is that the person who made Watchmen was absolutely horrified by the trend he started so he decided to try and make a much more hopeful comic and it was actually a brief nice story the only problem was the grimdark was in full swing so it was pretty much ignored.
“Oh yeah it’s this new thing where you just kill EVERYONE”
I can rant all day about DC Comics loads of times when they went grim dark.
Imma just put "Batman Who Laughs" along with Metal/Death Metal. Scott Snyder used to be good, I swear!
Moral of the story: the world should be more Red
An interesting take on Grimdark is actually Berserk. It's extremely grimdark after Griffith totally did something wrong, but over time, some light begins to shine through. Once Guts is given a focus besides revenge, he slowly starts getting what TVTropes calls "Messiah Creep." His determination, guts (ha!), defiance, the struggle against hopeless odds that Red mentions, and habit of flipping fate off begins to have an effect. His bad assery and standing up for the little guy begins to inspire others. Most stories end with someone (Jill, the Priest at the end of the troll arc) awed, filled with hope and wanting to take fate into their own hands. Compare this to the seeming messianic utopia that Griffith has created that is actually an impending feast for the Apostles.
To add to Berserk as an example: the Dark Souls games. They're pretty much a tribute to Berserk and are games that embody the futility and grittiness of Grimdark. A central theme is literally the cyclical nature of the world: whatever choice you make at the end will still lead to another cycle of Linking the Fire (or not Linking).
Berserk fall mostly under the category of noble dark, look it is real
edit: I didn't say that berserk wasn't grimdark at the beginning but I believe that the author maybe changed the tone because of the points expressed in the video about grimdark being too bleak to care, in which case why bother if everything is going down and nothing change.
@@rexturbo10 I would argue that arcs past the one with Mozgus are nobledark, but before that is grimdark. Let's be real, before the reincarnation ceremony there was no hope in sight and Guts was struggling just to struggle and his only goal was to kill Griffith. It wasn't until he decided to protect Casca and try to help her recover her mind that he had purpose beyond revenge, hope for the future, and began to open himself up to others and make friends ago. Now, I'm curious as to how Kentaro Miura would have continued it, because you know damn well that the behelit that they were carrying around was meant for Serpico.
I haven't read berserk but this actually reminds me a lot of vinland saga! the first section of the story is incredibly grimdark from the perspective of the main character thorfinn. He is willingly being strung along as an effective killing machine by the man who killed his father and ruined his life, so that he can enact revenge and kill him in combat. without spoiling too much, of the story, as it truly is one of the rare stories that i think everyone (that is of a given maturity because of it's gore and grimmnes), should read it. Thorfinn does find a direction after hopelessness.
also, a there is a character that disillusioned and the parallel to thorfinn, who starts very different to him, yet goes on a mirror journey to throfinn, and though he recognizes and respects thorfinn as does he, both of them decide to live by the ideals they've landed on and prove through action what they think to be right.
i am not nearly as good with words as many others but i hope i've convinced at least one of you to try and stick with it.
in terms of other of my favourite media, i'd put this up their with Avatar: the last air bender, full metal alchemist brother hood, to your eternity, and a novel callled 'year of wonders'.
@@gohanr1271 Vinland isn't really that dark. I mean there are plenty of jokes and humorous elements in the first arc, yes it's darker then the other arcs but I wouldn't really put it into grimdark myself.
"Or you could play as the Tau"
And get bullied both in lore, on the table top, and by everyone else who plays.. oh who am I kidding, you'll get bullied no matter who you play as.
Yeah, but bullying Tau is a time honored tradition. They can’t even fight in melee. It makes things so much easier.
Except orkz they are universaly respected
@@trrebi981 Only made time honored by the fact there were several editions where they kicked everyone's ass on the tabletop
No matter who you picked, you're always going to complain about russian bias... No wait, wrong comment section.
*Laughs in Necrontyr*
To me, the appeal of grimdark is that it depicts trying as a good thing, whereas most media depicts succeeding as a good thing. Like, most media will have a darkest hour moment where they’re like “oh nooo, our protagonists might not succeed, all their trying might turn out to be pointless!” Grimdark more often says “our protagonists tried, and failed, but it still matters that they tried.” It’s like that one tumblr post about tragedies that said something along the lines of “the love didn’t save anyone, but it was there and it mattered.” Since stories are meant, in part, to inspire people by relating them to the protagonists, if all people have are stories of successful heroes to be inspired by, when they fail they might lose that relatability and stop being inspired. If someone is inspired by grimdark heroes (such as Lamenters from 40k), they either succeed or continue to find the heroes relatable.
On a much simpler note, almost every non-grimdark story ends with “good guys win and bad guys lose,” so grimdark is really the only genre where I actually wonder what the ending will be like. Protagonists overcoming hopeless odds means the odds weren’t hopeless, so grimdark is mostly alone in having characters actually face hopeless odds.
Obviously there’s also just shitty nihilistic grimdark, and that’s bad, but it’s not inherent to grimdark
You 100% nailed it. I was going to write a very similar comment: At 15:40 this video says that persistence in the face of hopelessness being encouraging is an appeal of grimdark, but assumes that it can only be encouraging if it is rewarded. I think the fact that it is not rewarded is the beauty of the theme - persistence in the face of hopelessness is not a good thing *because* it gives you rewards: if it did, it would not be hopelessness, as you wrote. Grimdark reminds me that persistence is an inherent good, it's not only good when it is rewarded.
An Imperial Guardsman in WH40k is, most likely, completely doomed, and everything they do is for naught. The hope that drives that character is, from a factual perspective, foolish and incorrect, but it is NOT wrong of them to have it. Their life will go poorly and there is nothing they, or anyone else, can do about it, but their experiences still have value. They are incorrect to hope or the relationships they build are ultimately pointless, but their hope and relationships still have value.
For most of us, we will die and be forgotten, making no lasting impact on the world. Having hope that we, personally, could make the world significantly better is wrong more often than not, as it is in Grimdark, but we are right to believe so anyway.
Does the story insist that the trying matters when the trying accomplishes nothing? It seems to me that consistently depicting trying as futile is admonishing those who try.
Isn't the entire point of trying to achieve some goal? What's the point in fighting a battle that will definitively never be won? The ultimate fantasy of grimdark is hopelessness exists, and that's not a fantasy I find very appealing.
@@brookejon3695 You are entirely right, that is the question. Those it matter? Some people will say no and some yes. Now, I am not saying that everyone who says no is an inherent nihilist, but that is the root question as far as I see it.
If we all knew, for a *certainty*, that the world is ending in 10 days, does it matter what you do? what is moral? do you curl up in a ball and just roll over? do you go out and smell the flowers one last time? or do you go out and commit unspeakable acts? again, at that point, does it matter?
I feel that this is the question a Grimdark setting ask, should we be nihilistic in the face of utter hopelessness?
@alexjewett7455 and yes, that would go for your point as well "What's the point in fighting a battle that will definitively never be won?" The way I see it, is that you did not succumb to nihilism. I get why you would not find a fantasy that has truly real hopelessness in it appealing. I get why some would see it as too dark and ask where the good is, if there is no hope for a happy ending.
I do not know if *True* hopelessness exists, in real life. For some it might, or at least it might seem so, atleast on a personal level. But on a larger scale, I would hope not. I do think that the world can get better and better. But what I find fascinating and even beautiful, in the question that I feel that the Grimdark setting ask. Is that even if all hope is lost, even if this is the last stand, even if the world ends in 10 days no matter what, then there is still some part of the human spirit that will stand up, and spit in the face of death. Or at least I like to hope that there is.
“Ernest Hemingway once wrote, ‘The world is a fine place and worth fighting for.’ I agree with the second part.”
Se7en was a fantastic movie
Excellent film.
You know Hemingway committed suicide, right?
Damn it you beat me to it!
Goddammit someone posted this before me!
Interesting note about the comparison between Tolkien and Martin:
Tolkien was a soldier on the front lines in World War I and wrote an optimistic and hopeful story about overcoming the forces of evil rooted in fantasy.
Martin was never in any armed forces or any other comparable conflict and wrote a largely pessimistic and much more graphic story rooted in history.
Martin seems like the superior mind, then.
@@cockjohnson7692 Why, because he's edgy? Maybe they should start putting questions on IQ tests to determine how edgy you are.
@@zoro115-s6b I'm down for that.
Cock Johnson pulling hope from despair takes talent, pulling despair from hope is just obnoxious
@@samhunt3666 pulling hope out of your ass when all evidence points to there being no hope at all is trite and delusional, at least edgy nihilism is truthful.
One mistake... it was World War One, not two, that Tolkin fought in.
The Marshes of the dream were inspired by the quagmire of parts of the trenches.
He fought in both
@@siyacer No he didn't, he only fought in the first one. His only direct involvement in the second war was being approached by the government to potentially be a code breaker, and getting some basic training in how to do that role, but was never called into active service to do so.
Two of his sons did serve in the military during the second war though.
Tolkien always denied writing any part of lotr and the hobbit as a metaphor or symbolism for ww1. That being said I definitely think he did it subconsciously
@@dominikdeciga4307
I would not call it "symbolism", but rather a man writing what he knew.
@@dominikdeciga4307 No, he still didn't. Was he influenced by those events? Certainly. Are some of those influences clear in the work? Also again, very much so. And there are parts that he was very open about basing on things he saw while in the war.
But no, none of it was metaphor or allegory. It simply was what it was in text. Tolkien really, really disliked the entire idea of allegory. Instead simply presenting the text of the story as it is, not being more then what it is, and letting any other meaning or message come solely from how the reader relates to the text.
When I was in middle school, one of my teachers described an emotion he called "happysad". I was confused by what he meant, and he used the ending of a sad movie I watched as an example. I felt like I understood; I said "Oh, you mean it's sad when the character dies, but there's also happiness in it because his death inspires other characters to work towards a better future?" He said "No, I mean that you're sad because he dies, but then happy because it wasn't real!"
I've spent my whole life since then baffled by that conversation. But now, watching this, it seems like my middle-school teacher wasn't alone. Perhaps, for some people, the fact that a piece of fiction isn't real is _consciously_ tied to their emotional response to its events.
I think one way that people cope with their problems is to be engrossed in a fictional story, and when something sad happens in the story, you can allow yourself to feel the emotions in a contained and controlled environment. It's almost like an experiment. You can have those feelings you're already feeling, but not necessarily have to think about why you feel those feelings.
@@soapthesoap you're describing catharsis, which is a little different than what VampPhoenix99 was talking about. they're expressing confusion at the concept that some people think "ah well, it wasn't real" or "at least that didn't happen to me" in response to bad things happening in a story. I tend to agree with Vamp. As a person who enjoys tragedies and some grimdark stories, my enjoyment personally comes from the catharsis of safely experiencing those negative emotions from a distance, and I don't really get how or why someone would willingly detach themselves from an immersive story in order to cheer themselves up that it "wasn't real".
Quick correction: Tolkein fought in WWI, not WWII.
Yeah but whenever you say World War you just wanna say 2. It's like the Terminator, everyone knows there's a first but you just thing of Jusgement Day.
@@kylesodyssey8591 *kikoha to the face*
Love dbza btw, and yeah that quote is pretty fitting
@@kylesodyssey8591 I wanna say that's a dbza reference but I'm not entirely sure
@@knightofsteel2783 it's dbza kai abridged 2.9
@@kappagon thank you
“Inside every single cynical person is a disappointed idealist” -George Carlin
Isn't it inside every cynic?
DemonGuysaysHi oops, you didn’t saw that.
@@gabrieldeoliveira8304
My eyes, ears and lips are sealed.
DemonGuysaysHi good, make it stay that way.
Inside every idealist is a cynic, infinite recursion.
“There're awful, horrible things in this world, I know that now. But there're a lot of things worth protecting too.” - Madoka Kaname
Madoka Magica is actually a really good example of how grimdark can have a hero, and ultimately a happy ending, even if not everything is fixed (just talking about the series, not rebellion) and is a perfect example of why I read grimdark stuff, because where the world is dark, the small glimmers of hope and specks of happiness shine all the brighter, and in that we learn to appreciate stuff like that all the more.
@@fluxuous6907 this!
@@fluxuous6907 it scared me for life and if it has a happyish ending, thats highly subjective. Akemi hasone goal and even in the happyend she fails whilerememberingall the trauma she went through trying to get it right . . .
Realy love the show though
@@fluxuous6907 Well I think by definition grimdark can not have a hero madoka is grim and dark but it is not grimdark. Madoka is one of my favorite animes ever and so is banana fish if ya know that. I love if heroes are morally ambiguous but if the main protagonist is truly a completely unlikeable character and there's no satisfying ending I don't usually like it. For example,I love musicals and I love the first act of Chicago so much but the ending feels so unsatisfying to me. I love gritty and dark stories but I love having heroes and a satisfying ending. There's a difference between the dark and gritty and grimdark.
This video actually reminded me a lot of Explanation Point's video on Magical Girl Site, and why it and other "Madoka clones" tend to fall flat. Because they forget that at its core, underneath the sadness and brutality, Madoka Magica is about hope.
Stories in grimdark settings are uniquely positioned to teach us how to cope with, or find meaning in, failure. Other stories tend to teach that success is the inevitable result of persistence, that hope is always justified. But sometimes it isn’t. There’s merit in challenging the belief that hope is the only salvation for the hopeless.
As someone who was depressed for 6 years straight, the struggle against hopeless odds in grimdark stories is incredibly motivating. Real life kept kicking me while i was down, and i was never rewarded for my persistence. I kept fighting, but i could help but wonder why. Seeing someone go through an exaggerated metaphor for what i was going through AND never quiting, even though he isnt rewarded for it is incredibly cathartic and motivating.
@@JoshuaHammond-ei2zj As long as Slaanesh doesn't get involved, I suppose I can abide this heresy.
This is exactly why I think so many people (myself included) got so much out of Dark Souls. Yeah, I'm a small, insignificant player in a game where everyone else has already done everything important. Yeah, I'm not as strong, smart, or capable as any of the enemies that I run into.
But after spending three hours trying to beat the Taurus Demon, that wasn't the Chosen Undead conquering some random demon on a wall. That was me, breaking through an obstacle that was holding me back. I can do this. I can keep moving forward.
@@VernulaUtUmbra Exactly!! I love darksouls. Ive put a hundred hours into the game and havent even made much progress. Still love the fuck out of the game
Funny, when I was depressed, grimdark was something I hit myself over the head with and was one of my most self destructive behaviors. I kept reading and watching things about angry, depressed, violent characters that reinforced how I saw myself and the world. Consuming more hopeful stories, especially ones where well-written characters got over some of the same issues I had and become better people, helped me a lot.
I think that's what the appeal of grimdark boils down to:
people who are completely miserable want to see someone going through something more difficult without surrendering to it. As someone who also lives with depression, that is what inspiration looks like to me.
5:02 I love the 40K Cain books as they give a face to the people who have to be boots on the ground. The main character has no special powers. He cares about the people he works with and has to solve almost impossible situations while trying to keep who cares about alive. Basically Blackadder in space :D
Oh hi Armenian nice to see you here lol
The black legion series really delves into the perspective and motivations of the slew of renegade marines who have not chosen A sugar daddy chaos god
"The main character has no special powers."
I'm pretty sure Tzeentch-induced bullshit powers of not dying, even in the most deadly, lethal, fatal and inescapable situations, not to mention having everybody believe your bullshit, counts as a special power.
@@A.DEN0 except a less depressed batman. Also he has a friend that everyone hates and causes wizards heads to explode. B L A N K S
CI CI CAIAFUS CAIN
So with the struggle against hopeless odds thing theres one bit you missed. You said if people want to watch persistance in the face of hopelessness BE REWARDED. In Grimdark not only the character, but the observer both know the situation is hopeless, which makes the fact that they stand that much more powerful (to me anyway). To quote one of the best lines in all 40k fiction:
"I have seen the power of Chaos Torgaddon, you cannot fight it"
"Yet here I stand"
Yeah, the notion of still flipping the bird at whoever or whatever is in the process of killing you can be satisfying. Hope is the ultimate motivator, but folks forget that spite is another form of hope.
Let me just drop my obligatory quote of Jaghatai Khan being faced with a vision of the grim future
"‘I do not doubt your visions,’ the Khan said, quietly. ‘But what do they change? Shall we stare up at the shadows and let our blades fall from our hands?'
'Know this, son of Magnus. There is more under the arch of heaven than victory and defeat. We may fall back, but not forever. We may feint and we may weave, but not forever. We may yet be doomed to lose all we cherish, but we shall do so in the knowledge that we could have turned away, and did not.’
‘We remained true,’ the Khan said. ‘They can never have this, not if they burn all we ever built and scorn us through the dancing flames. You hear me? We remained true.’"
Edit: Quote is from Chris Wraight's Path of Heaven, for anyone interested. I highly recommend reading Scars beforehand, though.
"There is no shame in turning back."
"No point, either."
@@Syurtpiutha Darksiders 2?
Also why Rylanor is one of my favourite characters. He was never going to win, but he could hurt Fulgrim's pride.
15:48 I think the people on Twitter meant that it is good to see the spirit of humanity carrying on even in an utterly hopeless situation where both the characters and the audience know that they're going to lose even before they try, but they still do the right thing anyway.
Yeah it kind of misses the point. Persistence in the face of hopelessness isn't hopeless if they actually succeed. They are saying persisting in the face of actual hopelessness, not shonen/ movie hero hopelessness which usually means kind of difficult or really difficult
Those other shows don't "do it better" because people aren't talking about watching people succeed and being inspired by it. They're talking about watching people fail and try none the less
“There are no good choices”
False. The orcs are dumb enough that they can staple together cement and cardboard boxes, think it works, and will it into becoming a hovercraft. They are the best option and you cannot tell me otherwise.
Remember the Orks are a Bioweapon designed for a war with aganist a force that could casually destroy stars from halfway across the galaxy and rip apart time and space like it was tissue paper and just straight up treat the Laws of Physics as guidelines.
Oh, and their modern abilities are in a primitive state compared to when they are the Kork.
@@Xo-3130 makes them even better
Remember, you ever see a purple Ork
the eldar will see you soon
Egyptian robot skeleton terminators that use gods as batteries tho
7:42
"What are you gonna do, be sad at me about it?"
*Starts shooting tears like Isaac's Binding*
Underrated comment
EXTERMINATUS
Imperium Thought For The Day: "Blessed is the mind too small for doubt."
Red: Hope is the ultimate motivator
40K: Hope fuels one of your worst enemies
Not wrong
Just as planned
I mean, if people were hopeful enough that that aspect of Tzeentch became dominant, would he even be the enemy any longer?
That’s not to say it’s possible, he is and always will be a scheming asshole, the personification of scheming assholery, and the patron of scheming assholes everywhere, but academically, it’s an interesting question.
To quote at least one edition of the 40k rulebook, "Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment".
@@CelticPheonix101 It'd certainly mellow him out *a bit*, but the gods are fueled the strongest by the most powerful, basic bad emotions - and for Tzeentch, that's trickery and deception, the feeling you get when your hope is betrayed.
The gods have become defined by these most powerful aspects, so if everyone got hopeful, Tzeentch would probably use the newfound power to orchestrate some massive plot that betrays everyone's hope simultaneously - which, coincidentally, would make him even more powerful in the process.
The actual exception in Warhammer 40k are the Salamanders, who I can considered as the "good guys" in the Imperium of Man, they deadass care for the people and to see 1 civilian death is a failiure.
There's also the Lamenters
@@ranger5839 And the Space Wolves
@@ranger5839 the difference is the lamenters are the embodiment of grim dark kicking the ass of anyone who's good or hopeful as described in the video. Still hope they get a redemption arc and kill huran or luscious Tbh I just want anyone to permanently kill that horrible excuse of a character.
"good guys in 40k"
Guiliman:a flawed man who despite this trys to remain a good person despite his demigod nature
Jaghatai khan:a outcast who despite having a semi fractured legion,united them physically and spiritualy becoming badasses
Sanguinus:a noble man with darkness in his soul who saved his legion from dammnation by being a good person
Corvus corax:a liberator of the opressed who desired to see people prosper
Vulkan:a man among gods,a humble blacksmith who became a god of war whos fury would put angron to shame
Farsight:a hotheaded tau who found wisdom in dark places,who contemplated his kinds very nature and strove to save who he can from the growing darkness
Eldrad:though he did bad shit eldrad was a true aeldari who sought to see his people prosper and learn from there mistakes although still a eldar
Yvraine:the champion of the god of death,who sought to revive the old aeldari,kill she who thirsts so that they become better
The silent king:the necron who lead his people to dammnation and lost everything for it,to go beyond the galaxy and return hellbent to kill the great devourer despite everything hes doing
Pre heresy magnus:a man who ruled justly and even though he was on the road to dammnation,attempted to persuade lorgar from his dark path,leading to where he was
Pre heresy horus:a kind man who tried to allways be diplomatic,and even on the edge of dammnation denied he was good for warmaster and even after erebus turned he and his brothers to dammnation,the emporor would give mercy to horus by erasing him completely
Dante: despite craving the finaly release, still carries the nobility of the angel leading the chapter
Leman russ:a hypocrite and horrible man,when prospero,its people and the thousand sons burned,it would set him on a path of redemption,only for the sins of the father,to follow the sons
I raise you Farsight Enclaves
On point 3, the appeal of Grimdark as a tale of defiance with specifically no hope of winning, I'd argue it's a cultural split between you and those who commented it.
You see, 40k is suprisingly popular in the former Eastern Europe. Even though GW's miniatures are well outside our pricerange. The reason? The novels paint a picture of a bleak, horrible world (ala 1984), but one with people continuing to resist it. The Eastern European experience is specifically that of struggling against horrible reality with no hope of winning. And for many of us, and also those in depression, who genuinely do not see a clearly possible victory, the idea of continuing to struggle out of sheer "fuck you", our of sheer "we shall not go quietly into the night" is genuinely inspiring.
The idea of a situation that can not get better, but which you fight regardless, out of sheer defiance is a very common cultural cliche in Lithuania, driven by historical experience. The idea that defiance on its own is a worthy cause even when it achieves nought. The principle of standing back up after countless beatings, the principle of dying with your eyes open. These are undenyably grim themes with grim outcomes. And yet they are a mainstain of our history, something which in some ways is in fact inspiring.
There are three ways to approach insurmountable odds.
1) Determine that the fight is unwinnable and give up
2) Find a way to make the fight winnable, find "the happy ending"
3) Fight regardless of if a happy ending is possible.
Option 3 is the "inspiring" part of Grimdark. The concentration camp rebel, destined to die. The person cought in the crossfire of WW2, continuing to write poetry regardless. These themes are arguibly culturally unfamiliar to Americans such as you, but they are increadibly familiar to Eastern Europeans. The case where "dying with sword in hand" is the "good ending".
More familiar to some Americans than you might think. That's exactly why I like 40k, and appreciate the Imperium of Man, most of all the Imperial Guard. Because the average guardsman is just a mortal. A normal guy or girl. Handed cardboard armor and a weapon that would let you conquer the planet today in early M3, but in M40 and M41 is called a flashlight because that's about how effective it is when the power armor clad demi gods, giant space roaches, undead murder zombie robots or literal fucking daemons are out for your blood. But you show up and fight like hell anyway, because fuck those assholes, better to die fighting than surrender.
As someone who loves in the USA, I can tell you that those in the lower wage brackets here are quite familiar with the 'just keep fighting, even without a possible victory because fuck surrender' mentality.
I don't get up in the morning because I have hope for my future. I gave that up years ago. I do it because the other option is giving up, and fuck. that.
Reading this makes me realize exactly why it's so infuriating to see sheltered white middle-class liberals making vastly inappropriate comparisons between contemporary politics and stories where the good guys win: Harry Potter, Star Wars (except the prequels, obviously), Lord of the Rings, etc. These are the comfortable people who often overlook the fact that the experience of living in America for almost anyone besides their demographic for the majority of its history is an experience more closely mapping to a grimdark story, a history where the breakthroughs and the victories are the (rightly celebrated) exceptions, not the rule. It's an often overlooked or deliberately hidden facet of our history, one in which millions have lived their entire lives under the thumb of capitalist oppression, with many facing state-sanctioned genocide, incarceration, or chattel slavery. In the absence of a unified working-class resistance and the prospect of a century that will leave Earth a much worse place than when it came, option 1 (a.k.a. suicide) is initially the most attractive if you're alone, but finding comrades willing to help you fight or live to fight another day makes options 2 and 3 much more palatable.
It'd be a shame if all that grimdark actually shut progressive fandoms in their bubbles, and the facist aligning no-lgbt zoners run amok in mainstream media.
The Four Chaos Gods:
1. Corn
2. *ULTIMATE JEVIL*
3. Angel-Dust from Hazbin Hotel
4. Great Ol' Grand pappy *DEATH*
OSP: Puts grimdark in their title
Every Warhammer fan in the world: *hiss of a can opening* oh you want to hear about grimdark?
This is accurate.
Si this tent to happend
Grimdark couldn't even be discussed without bringing up Warhammer!
Warhammer is so grim dark that at times it loops back to becoming a comedy
A race of sentient mushrooms are fighting against a BDSM slavery, pirate cult? Hilarious!
A dead corpse needing a thousand the sacrifice of thousands of latent pyschics? What a riot!
Space Vikings and Space Mongols fighting against enemies that orgasm when they hear a specific sound? The material writes itself!
She says there are no heroes here, but she forgot about someone
Ciaphus Cain, Hero Of The Imperum!
Ironically, I think that Warhammer 40k is a fun setting because it's "grimdark" in a childish way. 40k is the sci-fi universe equivalent of a 6-year-old saying, "Oh yeah? Well my character can do everything that yours can +1!" Most things in 40k exist as the result of ongoing dick-measuring contest of power scaling. The result is characters and units doing ludicrous things via ludicrous methods that are so dark that they circle back around to being goofy. At the same time, the setting is big enough that you can isolate stories and events within it to sort of fit it to the level of seriousness or grimdarkness that you want.
Example of 40k silliness: Orks in 40k all have minor psychic abilities but are too stupid to know about it. Orks also all think relatively alike. So, when the Orks all believe something, their collective psychic power forces it to become true. Orks all think that their red vehicles move faster, so they do. Orks all perceive a machine gun as a box with a magazine/belt, trigger, and barrel sticking out, and so their guns are just pieces of scrap metal welded together into a gun shapes. Orks are, admittedly, 40k's comic relief. But, equally silly things are spread throughout the universe.
Also another thing, if the orks all stayed under one banner for long enough, they would conquer the galaxy.
Yeah, 40k is silly as hell, the Orks are just honest about it
@@memes_the_dna_of_the_soul5487
Literally what The War of the Beast was about.
Warhammer Fantasy
Yeah,all the space travel is powered by a dead psychic god and we keep him alive by sacrificing a thousand virgins to him a day. Mhm.
- Oh yeah? Well, the universe is surrounded by an endless horde of murder-bugs, and everyone is doomed!
YEAH? Well, the fucking GODS are damned! EVERYTHING IS FUCKED!
- *YEAH?!* THE MURDER BUGS EAT HELL WHEN THEY EAT STUFF!
God, it just keeps fucking going.
I think the reason people call grimdark "more realistic" even though that's not really true, is because often media will avoid prolonged and overt depictions of human suffering, so stories that lean into that can shed perspective on a real aspect of the human experience that is often neglected in media. There is also a macabre beauty to be found in the faint wisps of hope in perilous scenarios, even if they are ultimately quashed, as they often have been in reality. I'm not a fan of the overly edgy (and cringey) aspects of some grimdark narratives, but I can appreciate the unique and complex stories that can only be told through the lens of suffering and misery. Because while it's true that the world can become a better place through the effort of good people, it too can become a worse place through the effort of not so good people, and I think exploring that is valuable.
these people in the comments need to reject the direction brained false paradigms of "X vs Y" if they are to truly find solutions in a fundamentally three dimensional world. sadly not many people are taught basic critical reasoning early on intead opting for the kneejerk "us or them" black and white Hegelian dialectic.the idea that humans are fundamentally biologically flawed is a patently false and is frankly a cruel social Darwinist concept. this situation were in is LEARNED and that gives me all the more reason to think we can unlearn the lies we are taught by those that want us to fight over petty minutiae.
"In the grim darkness of 90's comics, there is only edginess."
Accurate.
Anderrated comment
There will be no happiness across the comics, only an eternity of edge and terrible jokes to the laughter of thirsting writers.
... and pouches... so many tiny, pointless pouches."
Wild bow and Parahumans WordPress site:*Cracks open a can of monster loudly* "have you heard of our 2011 grimdark parody web serial Worm?"
Why do grimdark stories look so good?
Cause they have 40k graphics.
The inquisition isn't normally concerned with mere jokes. But for this, they might make an exception.
🥁
guess you can say that have...
CUTTING *EDGE* GRAPHICS
(ba-dum-tss)
@@isectoid9454 I'm pretty sure the Inquisition absolutely will kill you for making a joke about the Emperor... or the Space Marines... or a flavor of pizza the Inquisitor happens to like...
Huehuehue. Made my night!
40K: the most grimdark game out there that has super intelligent orangutans, giant robot skyscrapers, and essentially mushroom people able to throw a car battery into a shopping cart and use it as a tank
Yeah orks are awesome. They, the Tau and of course the Necrons are my hope for this world^^
@@TheRedMooncorp For all the Horrible things in the 40k there is Hope, for the better, granted there is god Feeding off it but still.
Also Rambo IS SPAZZZZE!
A dash of hope is always required or else how can u truely feel the grimdark.
The general situation is fucked however since Chaos has multiple 'I Win' buttons which they never press
Kharn would slaughter ALL of the Black Templars, Sisters of Silence, Sisters of Battle, Tempestus Scions, Catachans and Death Korps of Krieg!
The Siege of Terra Novel, Saturnine, has some big implications for the lore
@@christiandauz3742 I mean, every major faction in 40k has several instant I win buttons, that never get pushed.
Chaos doesn't want to push that button, because if Chaso wins, Humanity dies and so does Chaos. Thats been stated since Rouge Trader, and reiterated in every edition since. The great game has to be eternal, and you can't play the game without pawns.
The Imperium has Arc Mechanicus ships, which are each actually fully functioning STCs with Weapons that outstrip everything ever seen in 40k ( the reason its not pushed is just about every AI in the galaxy isn't exactly happy with Humanity (mostly because a lot of them fucked off and didn't see how the Age of Strife went down, or were rebels in the War vs the Men of Iron), so it erased the knowledge of the STC being there from the Magos's mind, but it still helped them out when thwy were attacked by Eldar, so its entirety possible that an STC AI backed into a corner may choose differently one day to let humans know), Cawl's projects (some of which according to him eclipse the Primarius), Roboute's return was straight up stated to shift the favor of the long war into the Imperium's side (the Long War is the war fought by the Black Legion, not Chaos entirety) and other Loyalist Primarchs are still around (at least the Lion is in the Rock and Corvus in the Warp).
The Aeldari have Ynnead, and technically also the Imperium, as they, despite how much they hate each other, the Eldar know if Humanity falls so do they (hence why they got involved a little bit in the Horus Heresy to ensure The Imperium's win by delivering Vulkan to Terra, and getting heavily involved to the point of more or less the closest thing 40k has to an alliance in the 13th black crusade and after they revived Roboute Guilliman)
Orks have their own biology, and the possibility of GMT becoming the next Beast
Nids have sheer numbers
Necrons have super weapons that rival DAOT Humanity, including:
Their own enslaved broken Gods
A Supernova Generator with Galactic range
Æonic orbs, which are literally enslaved Stars
The Silent King's return, and thr possibility of him being able to awaken all of the Necrons (which are awakening naturally, since they programed their alarm clock to the Fall of the Elder, but were a few thousand years off ( more excusable since they predicted the time damn near exactly over dozens of millions of years ago)
See, I’ve been getting invested in some different grimdark stories recently, and I’ve finally understood that “struggle in the face of hopelessness” thing. Sure, sometimes the author is saying that hope is dumb and you should feel bad, which just sucks. But in the best cases, the author is making the case that it is alright right to be kind, be selfless, and help others, even where you receive no reward.
Weirdly enough, Doctor Who of all places is what got this to click for me, specifically “the Doctor Falls” and its “without witness, without reward” speech.
That's the thing with (good) Grimdark most people don't get. The whole point is hope and to struggle. Fight even if you think you can't win, have hope even if there is no reason to. THOSE are the points of grimdark. To look at seemingly hopeless situations and deciding to continue on, if for nothing but yourself. Which is why the grimdark stories where they specifically say having hope is dumb ticks me off, they missed the whole point.
@@Logamer-tn6db hope for nothing other than yourself is nothing but pure narcissism.
@@thenightwatchman1598 In what world does that make sense? Pure narcissism would be believing that nothing and no one can kill you on the battlefield. Having hope in that you might survive doesn't even compare.
@@Logamer-tn6db oh buddy. masochists can be a hella narcassitic. why do you think the south park mel gibson joke about him enjoying being tortured all the time is so funny?
40K has managed to make Grimdark work in a way almost no other setting has, because it uses scope properly. The 40K universe is a dumpsterfire and anything CAN and will kill you at the drop of a hat(possibly even your own side), but there's also room for small victories. You can banish that deamon for 101 yrs and keep him from eating you planet. Sure there's plenty else out there to kill you but there's also lots of things for that stuff to kill(even each other) you might slip by unnoticed for a lifetime or two. So much Grimdark focuses on how EVERYTHING is ending, and how it's all so important RIGHT NOW. 40K flips the script, almost nothing is important and while something's always ending somewhere, there's a lot of everything out there and even if it is ending it'll take a Very Long Time(tm)
Do you have a moment to talk about the greater good?
I think you hit the nail on the head. 40k's insanely huge setting means that the world can be ending all the time and totally doomed... but the people and little part we care about can still be saved. (if only for now.)
Yeah, also people seems to forget that in 40k the Imperium of Man literally has MILLIONS of planets under them. The fall of one planet it's only important if it has some strategic value (like Cadia), and we only really care because the lens of the story brought us to the people that live there. Supposedly, the Imperium both loses and wins planets every single day, but you don't hear about them.
As much as I love 40k, I have to (since I've been warching more Isaac Arthur videos lately) correct you a little when it comes to scale.
In terms of numbers engaged in combat and such, the numbers given in 40k lore are ridiculously low comapred to how insanely wast the resources the Imperium of Man would have access to are. We're talking troop numbers alone where billions of deaths a day are completely sustainable and barely put a dent in the total manpower of the Guard. They really, really, really lowball their numbers. Cadia may be lost, but more people almost just are born each day than lived and died on Cadia since the heresy. The Empire can literally drown its enemies in bodies, hency why a single life is worth next to nothing. :)
And 40k does have heroes, and characters who are shining paragons, within the parameters of their faction. Plus, while there's no endgame, no way to "save the world", there is hope, the hope to live another day, to save one planet, one city, to stave off the tide for a single day. There's no absolute victory, you win by delaying the apocalypse just a bit more.
Recently I've discovered what a series of authors have called "noblebright", a mirror to grimdark. They describe it as a counter to grimdark in the way that, where grimdark has a world in a slow, painful decline, noblebright takes place in a world emerging from darkness. Where grimdark makes clear that all efforts to better the world merely slow down the inevitable, noblebright tells you that every bit of effort and care, no matter how small, matters. Grimdark shows life as disposable and meaningless, noblebright emphasizes that even in the face of mass tragedy, any life you can save is precious. In grimdark, the innocent exist to be victims of the strong, and in noblebright, the innocent deserve to be protected by the strong. And noblebright still maintains that heroes are naive fools... but they can still make a difference.
today I learned that the type of stories I've been writing are noblebright and that it's a direct response to my distaste of grimdark growing up. whoah, thank you for the introspection
@@amzilla BRO SAME
Lord of the Rings.
*It has a name*
People have come out with more "alignments":
*Noble-Grim* refers to the characters. Can they change anything? Are they "good" people?
*Bright-Dark* refers to the setting: Is it nice or it's all destroyed?
But both are extremely vague measures: Warhammer 40k, Paranoia and NieR: Automata are all Grimdark (the world is destroyed and the characters can't change anything), but apart from that, they have next to nothing in common...
Using some sci-fi examples:
*Noble Bright:* Star Trek...
*Noble Neutral:* Mass Effect...
*Noble Dark:* Halo Reach...
*Neutral Bright:* Star Wars...
*True Neutral:* Cosmos by Carl Sagan...
*Neutral Dark:* Deus Ex...
*Grim Bright:* Mirror's edge...
*Grim Neutral:* Fallout new Vegas...
*Grim Dark:* I have no mouth and I must scream...
I think I might be able to shed some light on the appeal of "Struggle Against Hopeless Odds", and why it might be found to be inspiring.
Essentially, it boils down to a character whose moral principles are so strong that they would rather be moral and suffer for it than be immoral and escape suffering. It's a display of defiance, courage and stoicism. An uncompromising commitment to virtue. The world may be terrible, cruel and evil, but nothing can take away that character's virtue. They will die, or suffer a fate worse than death before they will compromise their morals.
It's not that their persistence in the face of hopelessness will be rewarded, it's that their persistence in the face of hopelessness is the ultimate middle finger to a cruel and evil universe.
I don't know that it's really about virtue per se. Plenty of protagonists in Grimdark are truly awful people or serving truly awful regimes (like most of the Imperium in 40K). But I think you're spot on about it being a matter of persistence, and also taking the small victories where they can be had. When things are truly awful, taking what victories you can and just managing to hang on for another day can be enough.
"I am Rylanor and I am the Ancient of Rites! So I reject you for now and for always!"
Agreed. But that’s the opposite of stoicism. A stoic believes that if something is in-changeable, it is not worth worrying about or trying to change. Of course, the common usage of the term usually just means someone who doesn’t freak out during emergencies. It’s actually the philosophy of a Roman slave who’s brain couldn’t cope with the physical pain his master put him through on “the rack,” a stretching torture device.
What you’re talking about sounds more like ancient Norse philosophy: fate cannot be changed but trying to do so, regardless, makes one a hero.
@@Deris87 well I would disagree. Most people in 40k are "good" people as far as such a thing exists. They are not worse than humans today and even today I personally would argue we as a species are mostly good by nature.
In 40k the real distinction is between the ones that have hope and whom do not. Some are just able to do worse thing in the name of humanity than others. The worst inquisitor may kill millions to root out a cult but just because they do think it's their only option (I disregard sadist and other clearly bad people here because I would argue they are in the minority).
I fully agree. For me it is inspiring to read about how people can stand up straight and go though hell knowing they will change nothing just because it's the right thing to do. Shows how dangerous and also defiant humanity can be and that even the worst things won't keep us down.
Nuclear war? Climate change? Both terrible disasters best avoided but anyone thinking that something like that will end our species is lying to themselves.
Back on this video a year on, and one section gave me some thoughts.
The standing up in the face of hopelessness, even when it fails, I think does have an important element. Because in the real world, the MAJORITY of pushes for the world to get better fail the first dozen times its tried.
I think that kind of grimdark story embraces an element of the integrity of doing the right thing even when it fails. Even when you suffer for it.
There's been recent talk online about some people falling into "protagonist syndrome", and I think these kinds of stories are (one of many) pushes against that. If you're too steeped in the "the heroes always triumph" narrative to the point of internalizing it, the early set backs or failures can be crushing.
In regards to "Appeal number 3"
Theirs a quote i love that goes "if nothing we do matters, the only thing that matters is what we do"
Yup, pretty much.
As an "optimistic nihilist" that's more or less my outlook. If nothing matters...We make our own meaning and happiness. And it's up to us to fulfill it.
Sounds like Nietzsche.
@@liamodahl1205 Nietzsche in the end wasn't really a nihilist.
@@liamodahl1205 It's from Angel, the spin-off of Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
What does that mean?
Me: "See title" I wonder if they're going to mention Warhammer 40k
OSP: "Talks for several minutes then expected about Warhammer"
Me and every 40k fan that sees this video: ALL HAIL TO THE GOD EMPEROR!!!
*loads Bolter* Alright let’s see, *unloads Bolter* good.
*Man Emperor* Lumping him in with the other so-called "gods" is an insult to His majesty.
ALL HAIL THE MAN-EMPEROR OF MANKIND!
@@primal114 HAIL THE MAN EMPEROR OF MANKIND!
He's not a God stop calling Him that. You insult His very memory by doing so.
To be fair, the """grimdark""" of Ciaphus Cain is that the character has unending imposter syndrome and thus the genuinely heroic things he does are not acknowledged by him as heroic
"I SHOULD BE *DEAD!* "
@@kabob0077 THAT WAS SO CLOSE, THAT WAS *TOO* CLOSE.
@@christopherbruderle684 I THOUGHT THAT WAS IT!
It also illustrates the dogmatism and hero-worship that plagues the Imperium.
@@ianbailey4213 well i mean the imperium also has a TACTICAL GENIUS
I can tell you that your assertion that people who deal with real darkness don't do grimdark is far from universal. I worked grim jobs (first career was in lockdown mental health facilities), and many of us read and still read grimdark. That catharsis by proxy can lead to real-life catharsis as well. I dealt with helping people who were considered hopeless cases, my own PTSD, personal tragedy, etc, in part because grimdark gives a safe, emotionally distanced milieu in which to start processing some of the hopelessness, to get beyond the abject hopelessness of the job and find real hope again. In the end, those jobs are not truly hopeless (or no one would bother), but they definitely feel that way when you are in the mire. It's important to process out that hopelessness before you can find hope again. If that means long sessions of Vampire: the Masquerade, or reading Joe Abercrombie, or watching M*A*S*H ("laugh to keep from crying"), then do it.
Same for me man. I find dark stories to be comforting because it gives me characters in situations that I can personally relate to because I've lived through similar times and mental states.
in terms of red's analogy, a cold shower is still better than an ice bath and can help people adjust to warmer temperatures
I'm a teacher so a big part of my life is selling the happy, sunshine, positive, "its gonna be okay" brand. After a long day of shining joy out my bung hole I like to come home to some soul crushing misery so that I can be like. "Oh yeah, that, that's what I feel inside." I took this same approach when working with inmates in drug rehab and reform school kids. I have to be happy and positive in recovery and rehabilitation while I listen to the worlds most horrific trauma. The last thing I want to do is go home and keep pretending its all gonna be okay. I guess to torture your metaphor, if everyone around you is in ice water and its your job to save them by working the furnace all day, a dip at the end feels pretty good.
“What’re you gonna do be sad about it?”
I mean yeah, but you don’t have to call me out for it.
I think Seinfeld is a grimdark setting. None of the characters are good, and in the end the bad guys always win or get away (the main cast). There is no victory, and no progress.
based
Kind of, if you take away the laugh track and framing they are some twisted individuals. Then again they do go to jail at the end, but only for a year.
@@TheRogueCommand It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia is basically a 21st century version of Seinfeld, with all the characters taken to their logical twisted conclusions. If you have not seen it before, it can get as dark as that sounds.
Doesn't the cast of Seinfeld go to prison in the last episode though?
@@discountchocolate4577 Exactly! That was a definite happy ending from where I'm standing.
FYI, I hated Seinfield.
something i think grimdark has the potential to do really well is demonstrating small moments of humanity in the face of overwhelming horror and devastation. Despite death and despair looming all around, the people in the periphery still persist and live. Seeing people who are minuscule and insignificant to the wider conflicts finding time and energy to act in human ways like finding company in loved ones or finding satisfaction in the routines they have adopted for survival, it is a genuinely hopeful thing to see.
The difference between struggle in grimdark and struggle in other genres is that grimdark shows how admirable struggle is even in the face of ACTUALLY impossible odds. Yea we say “impossible odds” in ever genre, but in many that impossibility is just lip service. We know the hero will win and get a happily ever after. The dragon will go down, the nuke won’t detonate, and the hero will find the courage within himself to make it last in the second. On the other hand watching someone not go down quietly, even knowing they will lose is a different kind of inspiring.
Grimdark glorifies the struggle even when it’s pointless whereas in other genres the struggle sometimes seems validated only after victory.
But those people are completely unlikeable.
To add to this, I think part of what was missed in the video is that it's not hopless if it works. In Dragon Ball Z I never assume evil is going to win so the hero's giving it their all isn't that inspiring because that's worked literally every time they've tried it.
When the Nights Watch holds on the fist of the first men knowing that even if some survive the night many of them will die in the frozen hike back to The Wall and even then they will have to defend the wall against the largest force in centuries with less than half of the strength The Watch had on it's peak. That gesture is inspiring even if they all die, it's not about the results so much as the raw humanity in the attempt.
@Raunch Hall People in 'grimdark' settings. If they were likable people it probably wouldn't be that grim or dark.
@@MySerpentine but... that's just... not true? there's no reason that your grimdark heroes can't be well... heroic, they tend pessimistic, but often because the odds against them are likely impossible, that's not a rule though, and the "smiles anyway" type of hero is a trope used from time to time, (that being the type of person who knows that things are bad, and that they can't solve the problems facing them, but, despite the fact that that should have broken them, their defiance is to smile, because if you don't it means they've won.) those types tend to be (at least outwardly) pretty jolly
Well I'll be damned, someone here actually gets it.
As someone who both writes a lot of angst and is dealing with trauma, the catharsis isn't the bad stuff, it's what comes after. I write my characters going through hell and then GIVE THEM A GOSH DARN HUG. I focus on supportive friends, working through trauma together, or even just individuals coming to terms with it on their own. For me, the problem with grimdark isn't the bad things that happen, but the lack of catharsis afterwards
I disagree, the best Grimdark stories have that Catharsis it just comes from a different source. I've referred to Berserk a few times in the comments but it's because I believe it's the best Grimdark story ever
Guts life sucks, the love of his life is a potato all his friends are dead and his best friend is an uncaring god obsessed with having his own kingdom. In the grand scheme of things he doesn't matter, but there's a cathartic hell yeah everytime he escapes a fight limp draging the dragonslayer behind him and when he does find a new group of allied he trusts you feel all the pain and exhaustion he felt just wash away like he did.
It's weird and hard to describe, read Berserk lol
I imagine you would enjoy Brandon Sanderson's Stormlight Archive, if you have not already read it. It's all about broken and abused people finding inner strength and standing strong. I imagine you would enjoy Brandon Sanderson's Stormlight Archive, if you have not already read it. It's all about broken and abused people finding inner strength and standing strong.
@@yordlejay6820 Berserk wouldn't be anywhere near as good as it is if it weren't for Miura being so ready and careful to remind the reader that there was, in fact, good and happiness to be found in Midland, and showing Guts having his ails eased by also being reminded of those things
@@rotciv557 I can agree with this notion, it doesn't make the setting any lighter however imo.
The only happiness in Midland is from a kingdom built by an ego maniacle sociopath on the bodies of all his closest compatriots that's run by a demonic army.
Other than that the closest thing to happiness is "hey, life may suck ass but at least it sucks ass with people I care about!"
This makes a lot of sense. Despite being enamoured by the sheer scope of some of the 4k character lore, the closest genuine exposer to grimdark was probably the Sins Revenant comic and when I still read that, the characters and situation were enthralling to me at the time, but the biggest drive that kept me up at night reading was to dig through to some glimmer of light, some small victory and a moment of relief, so I could walk away. And then I'd glance at the next chapter and be trapped again.
"There is no winning."
- Red, admitting this basically became property of the Warhammer Fandom.
The only one who wins is GW with your wallet
The tau weren't always mind-controlling genocidal pricks. They used to be the underdog good guys. But nope, in the war-torn future of the 41st century, there can only be grimdark.
And the Homestucks crawling from the abyss.
Yes
@Hans Hanzo it's hard to laugh witha bolter round in your skull
I think the phrase “what’re you gonna do, be sad at me about it” is one that absolutely needs to become a common saying
Exactly. My problem with the "no hope, everything sucks" people is that their only goal in life seems to be to jerk themselves off over how big-brain they are for knowing that the world has problems. It's a deeply immature and pretentious worldview and I have no respect for it.
@@resm-oe9ji for me its more of a "if you go back far enough in the 'why's, and you dont find an answer other than 'because it is' there is no reason to being"
@@ZeRandomizor why do you need an objective reason to exist in the first place? just say "fuck it we ball" and do what you personally want or think is right
Ok, strange reference, but in third grade we read a book called Anastasia Krupnik, about a little girl who has very realistic little girl problems, like her parents are having a baby brother she didn’t want, and her grandma is a rambling old lady who she finds frustrating.
But there’s a scene where she goes to the college class her father is teaching and he encourages her to listen in and participate if she wants to. The topic of the day is a “I wandered lonely as a cloud” and one of the students just says it reminds him of the futility of life.
Her father tells her afterwards that this student says that about every poem, and that even though her grandma has very little going on in her life, she’s not a nihilistic loser like that guy, because her memories are happy and loving and it gives her life meaning.
Red’s line makes me think of that bit- you can choose to be sad about it and be hopeless, or you can choose to believe that things will be better and have been better.
“There are some tie-in novels”
*Looks at 52 Horus Heresy novels*
Yeah... some.
Reilly Maresca don’t forget the Ahriman, Night lord, Chiapas Cain, Imperial guard, Eldar, Esionhorn, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Ultramarine, and Gaunt Ghost’s omnibuses and those are just the top of my head.
***brings 300 other 40k novels***
Yeah, just a few 😂
and that's *just* the horus heresy novels
And then there's the Inquisition War trilogy chronicling the escapades of Jaq Draco. We don't talk about that. With good reason.
@@Jon_the_Wizard please no
Grimdark, or at least good Grimdark, doesn't tell you you're stupid for having hope - it simply just doesn't provide you with that hope. And a lot of stories will then explore how the simple effort, progress, etc. are valuable in and of themselves; but it never punishes a character for hoping. And Grimdark isn't the only genre to explore this (e.g. horror), with many of them punishing fairly indiscriminately.
Personally, I think the Soulsborne series are good examples of what would constitute good Grimdark. The don't tend to provide much hope for the characters or the worlds their in, but they don't punish them for having that hope in the first place. Also, I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream.
Yeah, I was wondering on why I can't agree with her
I'm a Soulsborn fan ^^"
They are really depressing, they show you that the end is always the same : Death
Death of mind, death of body, death of soul, death of era, etc
There is change, not for the best but not for the good
But always with the death of something
Grimdark is not a genre in itself who bring something, it is a setting for ephemeral thoughts
It is not punish hope but show that hope didn't change something in itself, acts can
Thank you for your comment, it really awaken something :D
@@gwendaljambu4310 In that case, it's a dark and gritty setting, not necessarily grim dark. In grim dark, those acts wouldn't have accomplished anything.
@@TheRealOtakuEdits In all honesty I always viewed the Soulsbourne series as Nobledark and not Grimdark, but, that's just my own interpretation.
@@TheRealOtakuEdits Only Red include a non-meaning ending as a really essential point of the genre
Even in 40K, if humankind stop fighting they just dead, so it is not meaningless either
@@gwendaljambu4310 if human kind fights they die, they keep themselves alive by sending soldiers out dying which is not much better than bieng dead period considering they lose entire planets worth of populations and barely make a dent into the forces of chaos or the tyranids, it's delaying the inevitable and even in the video games there are only 1 or 2 endings where humanity just barely survives.
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
Actual quote from a character in the 40K universe.
It is objectively correct. If you always expect the worst instead hoping for better you will either be right or be pleasantly surprised.
"Hope is a beacon. Be a torch, not a shadow."
Also an actual quote from a character in the 40k universe. Specifically, Asurmen of the Eldar.
@@Zakon673 If it is from an Eldar it is probably a manipulative lie. I wouldn't trust it.
@@lurkingllama8364 It's an eldar talking to another eldar who is in the midst of despair. Also he's a Phoenix Lord, one of the great heroes of their people. Asurmen in general is a pretty nice dude tbh, he even laments in an internal monologue about how the eldar's failure helped lead to the downfall of the Imperium, and pines for the days when the eldar and humans shared the universe in relative peace.
@@Zakon673 So lied. Go it! XD
Red: I like heroes and happy endings
Also Red: some of the first stories I covered were Shakespearean tragedies.
context: for school
GrimDark: mentioned
Space Marines: Allow us to introduce ourselves...
All other space marines: _look around in confusion_
Red did nothing wrong!
@Rick K yeah because the flesh tearers and the marine malevolents are really stand up guys who respect and not eat the citicens of the imperoum (FYI i love the flesh tearers lore being grimdark jesus's angry borderline psickotick children of their brood)
@Rick K Wut? Marines are a bunch of mentally stunted children turned into killing machines who have a deep emotional disconnect from their regular humans counterparts, which is part of the reason many turn to chaos. That's pretty grim dark IMHO.
@Rick K "The Guard is the Grimdark part of the universe" Ah yes, the Imperial Guard is the only thing making 40k a grimdark setting.
Red: "and someone who fought in WWII-"
Me: "Wait, I thought he fought in WWI." *does some research*
So yeah, he fought in WWI but also he was recruited to be a codebreaker in WWII. Was inactive, but he went through the training for it. I just... thought that was a really cool fun fact about our boy Jrrt.
I hadn't known that about Tolkien, but IMHO it's perfectly in character. He would have agreed with Churchill that Hitler needed to be fought and beaten. He even said as much in The Lord of the Rings:
"Always, after a despite and a respite, the Shadow takes a new shape and grows again."
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.
"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But it is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
BTW, this is one big thing that people like me don't like about grimdark. There are no places like the Shire, or people like the Hobbits -- in short, nothing and no one worth fighting FOR.
@Sean Bigay Same. I run a DnD homebrew game, and while it has its dark moments, my players would probably be sapped of all motivation to help if I didn't have locations and NPCs they'd be willing to protect. I'm glad that they love it when I describe how their actions affect the world around them. Even if it's something small like "you've motivated Boblin the Goblin to run for mayor. "
"In any other year, I would have called that unrealistic". Yup, this is definetly a video that came out in 2020.
You say that like you aren’t from 2020. Does that mean there’s still hope for humanity in the future?
No, they are the owners of the secret Nazi Time machine who is gradually screaming at the grimdark nightmare that is our future.
Kerney Williams or, they’re actually part of an alien race that will rule over the remnants of the earth
Me coming into the comment section at 2023
That depends on your definition of “winning”. To the Orks this is the best possible time to be alive.
Nothing but war and chaos? What a time to be an Ork! It’s paradise.
“Most people play as the Imperium of Man”
(cries in chaos)
For as grimdark and self-serious as the game’s lore is, the memes are hilarious.
WAAAGGGHHHH
@@the.nerd.knight2078 WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGHHHHH!
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH
i mean i rekon in warhammer fanstey its the only setting where you can a war of rat methheads nuking,using flamerthowers and miniguns to fight shoomed up goblins ,while drawfs use bombers its so over the top that i gotta love it
Alright, so here are the other 5 memes this community likes to use:
-Sly Marbo
-For the Emperor
-Heresy
-everything emperor tts
-not really one, but trying to interpret the lore so that characters look really cute and/or relatable.
Choronzon: "I am Anti-Life, the Beast of Judgment. I am the dark at the end of everything. The end of universes, gods, worlds... of everything. Sss. And what will you be then, Dreamlord?
"
Morpheus: "I am hope.”
- Neil Gaiman's "The Sandman"
Ι read that line for the 4th time about five minutes ago. It's still one of the most moving things I've ever read
Honestly, I still don't get how Dream won with that. In the Sandman Universe, even Death will die once she locks the Universe, with not even the afterlife left behind. Hope really isn't worth that much when there is no one left to hope.
SORA The thing about hope, that everyone forgets, is that it persists. Even past the individual. The only way to defeat hope is to end everything, and in that end there is no one left to win.
And this
"What power would hell have if those imprisoned here would not be able to dream of heaven?"
@@mcpics4448 Yeah, and that guy played the End.
SORA and yet the end mean nothing when in come to hope
If religion tell us that even if judgement day happen we’ll be save
If the science tell us that heat death of the universe will not be end of life
And in a superhero world where a this series is taking place and deal with such threat multiple time than the End isn’t forever but hope is
Slight mistake: Tolkien served in WW1, not WW2.
Loved this video!
I can’t wait to watch blue cringe at red
If the US President doesn't need to know the difference neither does anyone else.
@@falconJB Not how it works.
@@falconJB Ah yes, the US President, the pinnacle of human existence.
I was looking for this comment
Thanks for the Terry Pratchett quote. I hope more Americans become familiar with his Discworld series. I feel like only British and Canadians actually know of the guy. Also, thanks for confirming that Batman isn't Grimdark
I’m ‘murican And love PTerry Pratchett, his books are great and thought provoking
Nah, as someone from the American South, I love Pratchett. One of my all time favorite characters of anything is Rincewind! Love that cowardly, selfish, yet courageous, selfless wizard.
The Orks might not be the good guy, but they sure are the fungi
Both as a pun and literally, they are just the happiest faction.
@@theimperiumofman102 The Emperor is currently talking to his caretaker through Text-To-Speech
I don't play 40k, and yet, I still wanna paint my car red to go fasta
@@theimperiumofman102 They also reproduce by spores, like fungus.
Orkz: if we're slapping we're clapping
I grew up in the 90's and was so bored to tears of grimdark I could've wasted away from its withering gaze, but I've come to appreciate it despite myself. You're absolutely right that hope and kindness are as realistic as misfortune and ill intent. However, I think there's also an... energizing irony to the absurdity within grimdark media that doesn't get enough credit. I'm just saying, sometimes a desperate, brooding space marine blasting chthonic eldritch horrors in a dead zone is hype as fuuuuck.
Hell just the imperial guard can be hype, holding the line can be cool.
check out joe abercrombie... i think you will apreciate :)
That is more the mishandling the grimdark style or over relaying on it even the namesakes fandom joke about it in the form of "in the grimdark future of grimdark grimdarkness."
As someone born in the early 2000's, I felt like I got an equally-large blast of grimdark. It didn't help that I was severely depressed and self-loathing as a child. Now that I'm an adult I am so much more optimistic and loving about the world as a whole and about concepts like hope, so the idea of people saying that you become pessimistic growing up always made me laugh
Just a note, RE: the point made at around 9:20, JRR Tolkein fought in world war _one_, not two. That fact actually serves the point better; he contracted trench fever after having taken part in offensives in the battle of the Somme, one of the darkest chapters in all of modern human warfare
The Dead Swamps, that hold the bodies of those that died there forever, has it’s roots in the mud of the Somme.
@@jacquelinej4819 Absolutely; the aesthetic of evil taking over the world (best seen in Mordor and the industrialisation of Isengard) and removing trees and greenery, leaving only blasted, poisonous wasteland also seems to me to take heavy inspiration from the wartorn battlefields of WW1, too
She probably meant WWI but misspoke
Also, ww2 gave the antihitler front something to fight for. Fteedom, the lives of millilons of innlcent people
@@theunreadyone I presume so, but still it's good to get a correction down, for those who might not know
i think what warhammer taps into isn't happiness or joy, but the motivation of a lost cause, a last stand. i don't know about everybody, but to some people that hopefull feeling of "we're not lost so long as people are still fighting" is what makes warhammer feel so awesome.
The third reason mentioned for why people like grimdark stories, that seeing people persevere in the face of hopelessness is inspiring, actually does make sense.
Shonen characters struggling against overpowered villains is not the same thing. In the end, they’ll win through nakama power or talk no jutsu or a superpowered ass-pull. Or they’ll die and go through an afterlife training arc before getting wished back into existence stronger than ever.
A grimdark struggle is inherently sisyphean. There’s a certain contradiction. The rational thing to do is give up and quietly let entropy win, and yet these characters have the personal sense of meaning and the strength of will to struggle on. They know they’ll lose. We know they’ll lose. There is no hope. But they spit in the face of that hopelessness. The grimdark setting will grind them into dust, but up until that happens, they continue on. The grit they demonstrate to try to live a life - any life - in defiance of a hollow existence is very aspirational. It’s equal parts stoicism and existentialism.
The Stranger by Camus and No Exit by Sartre are two excellent stories to read to really understand that mindset.
That’s one reason I liked the female protagonist of Persona 3. Lost her parents to supernatural events, thrown into a fight against demons in an unknowable tower that takes a year to ascend, and the world at large grows pessimistic, even nihilistic under a curse... and she never stops being AGGRESSIVELY HAPPY. Like, she will one-woman carry this pity party to the other side on smiles and sacrifice with zero complaints. It’s not healthy, but neither is giving in, so she *chooses* happiness in an increasingly hopless world. Two of her possible boyfriends will die or disappear. You would hope that in the end, her strength is rewarded, but inevitably, she’ll die. Never gets to let her guard down, never gets to see tomorrow. Unlike pure grimdark, the world lives on, but on a personal scale... she doesn’t. (And on a meta-scale, the makers of the game have deemed her non-cannon, and ignore her in related media). It’s sad, but powerful. She’s not happy because she’s in a good place, but she’s doing everything in her power to *make* it a good place.
One should also read Camus’ essay “The Myth of Sisyphus” to understand the triumph of continuing on in the face of an un-winnable situation
It’s satisfying in the same way as most good tragedies.
The Stranger is a strange example to give considering that it is more of a commentary on early "grimdark", considering that the setting is not grim or dark at all. It is the protagonist that is so. He sees himself as a reflection of the uncaring world when that uncaring world is a reflection of his own apathy, not an inherent quality.
That fits Guts from Berserk perfectly
I think I can articulate Grimdark appeal #3: showing a even an extremely flawed hero in a dark and cruel world helps highlight their heroism. Heroes in other stories can expect to be at least somewhat rewarded for their efforts, but heroes in Grimdark scenarios can't. This is an example of heroism for it's own sake, doing what is right because it is right without any expectation of reciprocity, and the existence of such a character can give the reader hope that humanity as a whole can become better.
Well said. Triumph needn't be the reason to do what is right. Even if good is the weed and evil is the garden, good will keep sprouting no matter how many times it is ripped up by its roots. That something many people from 'optimisitic' parts of the world don't understand.
Yeah, that's my reason to like Grimdark. It showcases that being good it's his own reward, and that's why there is none. Also, Grimdark does something rather fun in my opinion: every little ray of light and hope becomes way more interesting due to the fact that it can be snuffed out at any given moment, which you know it's not gonna happen in other genres. I don't care for "misery porn" where there is zero hope and no really human characterization, but when you have a little speck, a little humanity, it really "shines" on the "Grimdarkness" of the entire story, even if it gets destroyed at the end.
15:45 I mean, that's kind of the point. It's not about being rewarded for persistence, it's that persistence exists at all. About how the effort still had value even if all you achieved was something worse.
It's not bad to value persistence as a virtue but when you read a grimdark story where the theme is unambiguously all bad with no hope, virtue has to be projected into it. And you can read anything into anything, which doesn't give grimdark a pass.
@@HistoryTwistedInc
A candle is brightest when it's in the pitch-black darkness. You don't get to dismiss pretty damned clear messages as "projections."
Mileage might vary by story, and the point stands.
Maybe you don't get it, but it's pretty clear that a lot of people in the comments do.
@@zedek_ I don't mean for it to be a dismissal. If someone's life is improved by reading a story a certain way, they should. But that is a reader's prerogative, not something that makes grimdark for everyone.
@@HistoryTwistedInc He didn't say it's for everyone though, he explained why a hopeless struggle can be encouraging. As @Zedek said, in the deepest darkness a single spark can seem like an inferno. That's setting aside that not every story has to actively improve a life, unless spending an enjoyable time reading it counts. Many struggles in life might be hopeless, or seem hopeless to us, grimdark could be say to show that, even if you can't win, some things are simply worth fighting for regardless of the result.
@@TheArnaug Its more than just not enjoying it, which is why i think it's important to stress that it really isnt for everyone and even when people consume it, its best in moderation. She's a bit biased but I have to agree with Red that grimdark can be actively harmful. It can depress people who need hope and fester apathetic nihilism in people who dont want it.
And in case this is a semantics case that we diverge on, I'll say that dark stories that have hope within them are good if executed right but I dont know how that differs it from a normal story with dark themes rather than a grimdark story. Maybe I have the wrong understanding of the word.
As others have pointed out: grimdark's "hope against all odds" takes on a different meaning than when it's in other settings. When you know the protagonist will win and save the day, hope is nothing more than an expectation of conventional story telling. When you know the protagonist will lose everything at the end of it all, hope is the desire for a happy ending despite all evidence to the contrary.
Hope IRL feels a lot more like the second. We can't /expect/ a personal happy ending. But no matter how grim things look, we have to keep fighting. It's noble to do so. A soldier still deserves to be honored, even if he was on the losing side.
As someone with the Big Sad, the message of "it's worth putting up a fight whether or not you win" is a hopeful thing to hear.
(But I agree that grimdark is best in moderation)
Wish I'd scrolled this far down before commenting
@@frankyhorn2475 Same
This. This is exactly. Grimdark hope is completely unique from other genre variants. When you start reading the Punisher or Berserk you expect the main character go out in a blaze of metal and death and drag as many awful people to hell with him as they can. Four or five books later you're beginning to truly hope that maybe someday they might actually succeed, and that's why struggling against impossible seeming odds has value all it's own. A struggle without hope can still create or inspire hope.
Here's the thing I don't understand: Hope for hope's sake seems like just rooting for circular logic.
@@michaelsinger7063 And yet it's the stuff humanity runs on. We're an emotional species, not a logical one.
Tolken served in WW1, his son in the second one. Add the scouring of the shire was loosly based on his "idealic hometown" being destroyed by industrialism
But the Harrowing of the Shire still happens. Basically the grim ending of LOTOR is completely undone, and the Shire is set back on a path to being de-industrialized.
Not just industrialism. It seems that the last bit was very much an allusion to Communism
@@actualperson1971 Authoritarian, definitely; but nothing as specific as either Stalinist Communism or the up-and-coming Fascism...
“Yeah, uhm, we were usin’ the hot bits on our communications equipment, right, to heat up our rations. And, uhm, today, someone, I don’t know who, someone spilled the nutrient broth, erm, inside, th- uhm, th-the- the electric bits, and now it’s like, uhm, sparkin’ and not workin’.”
*Mechanicus Adept proceeds to screech at guardsman in Binary*
GAGAGAGAGAGA!!! I want to cut my toe nails... NEVER! I am the feet RUclipsr. Thanks for being a fan, dear b
[translated from binary]
Uhhhhhhh...... pray to it for 3 hours and light incense candles to appease it every day for one week.....that should do it....I think.....
Brandon Sanderson has defined grimdark like the genre where if you do a morally good choise, the outcome is negative and the fact that some character do it anyway shows how much is important for them doing the right decision at a high cost, so I think that can be heros in grimdark and can be heroic but their heroism cost to them instead of being acclaimed for it
Red: in warhammer 40k, their are no winners.
*laughs in imperial Kriegsman who just got a shovel*
This one gets me.
*Laughs in Sly Marbo*
Laughs in 36 shield drones, 480 shots and 30 inch range
Just to clarify its a Tau gunline
*laughs in Ork*
*LAUGHS IN TYRINID*
The most grimdark aspect of the imperium isn't how everything sucks, but rather how indifferent it is to loss of lives. If you're an imperial guard officer reporting the deaths of 1 million troopers, the administratum will tell you why you're wasting their time with such minor issues; meanwhile if you used deathstrike missiles (which is exactly the same as missiles we have today) on the enemy without doing weeks of paperwork justifying it, instead of sacrificing a few thousand men, you'll be in trouble with the Adeptus Mechanicus.
More a consiquence of the size of the Imperium combined with the number of its enemies than its no suprise that the Imperium is so calus in its approch to life take the Vikings as the brutality they show is due to the harsh evironment that they came from as the population exploded during their time take for example the terror tactics used by Ragnar Lothbrok.
@Ivan Vozyakov Which is, in fact, grimdark, as welll as kind of dumb!
@@drascin it's not dumb it's overly logical, like Ultron idea of world peace
@@drascin it is but to 40ks credit its more in the setting than it being the main focus of its stories they usually mention it as the cause of its problem in more ways than one like say the siege of vrax where the calusness of the imperials cost them more than they gain like letting an incompitent general lead an army of death seeking soldires, the Dark Angels leaving the battle (infamous for their calus disregard for their allies to hide their shameful history) ect.
@@drascin as strange as this may sound there is one character that basically commited a series of mass murders on a system wide scale to devert a hive fleet of Tyranids (think Zerg on steroids) and was excommunicated and made a non person by the Imperium because of the shear scale of blood shead and deam his deeds heretical yes even though the Imperium has low respect to its people they still at least see some value in its citizenry.
OSP: makes grimdark video
40k fans: “Hippity hoppity this comments section is now PROPERTY OF THE IMPERIAL INQUISITION, REPORT ANY CRITICISM TO THE NEAREST COMMISSARIAT”
And you guys lost it after a few hours
[Commissar Cain defers such criticism to his aide, Jurgen, who knows how to filter out the actually important bits so the Commissar himself can focus on more important things (like drinks and women)]
@@uria3679
We Warhams are a sad breed of nerd, sorry you had to find out like this :P
FOR THE EMPEROR
@@theguystealingyourinternet3712
AVE IMPERATOR DOMINUS, PATER OMNES, SALVATOR ULTIMA!
“Hope is what makes us strong! It is why we are here! It is what we fight with, when all else is lost...”
-Pandora, God of War
Came to mind when she started talking about Hope at the end.
A common misconception about Grimdark is that the bad guys win, the good guys lose in the most horrendously nightmarish ways.
Its about pushing through to the bitter end. Note 'Bitter End'. Not Good End. But it isn't Bad End either. Where other tropes focus on the end of the story, Grimdark concerns itself with the struggle as it happens and uses that as the focus.
I had a comment on my Rylanor video that I think perfectly encapsulates Grimdark. Pardon for anyone reading this and is unaware of what I'm going to talk about next: Rylanor dies. The reformed Thousand Sons dies. They failed in killing Fulgrim but wounded his pride. Fulgrim didn't get what he wanted. No one will remember Rylanor's final defiance against Fulgrim. But Fulgrim, the one that NEEDS to remember will. And that wounding of his pride will forever gnaw at him. No one leaves truly victorious.
That being said, I think a fourth staple of grimdark should be that both the protagonist and antagonist need to come out of the conflict broken.
You can tell that Last Stands in grimdark settings are my absolute favorite. But still, I can understand how it isn't for everyone. I mean, the first time I dipped into 40k, it shook me to the core. But then I dug deeper and found something I really REALLY love about it.
"Grimdark sucks and nothing will make it better". And that's the beauty of it. Despite everything being terrible, you do not give up, you do not kneel, you do not surrender. No matter how broken or or overburdened you are, or no matter how terrible the outcome despite your struggles, you will carry on. You must. "Do not go gentle into that good night. Rage, rage against the dying of the light."
Do you have a moment to talk about the greater good?
Sometimes the greatest insult to oppresion is a smile from a beaten mans face.
@Mikhail G incompetent writers make Grimdark just dark like painting an entire room black because black is his favorite color (looking at you Neil Drunkman) good writers use it as a statment against a dark oppresive world.
“The Imperium is like a man hanging from a cliff with one arm and without the strength to pull himself back up. He could use his other hand to hold on just a little longer, but he’s busy using it to give the finger to all the bastards watching him dangle.”
The key point of grimdark - which gets skipped over in poor writing - is that oftentimes _nobody_ really "wins" in the end. It's all shit.
The thing about persevering despite this is that the catharsis that comes from a story about stubborn perserverance lies in the payoff; the "victory" at the end, no matter how small or pyrrhic. The point of grimdark as a genre, however, is to undermine and downplay that victory, thereby ruining the inspiration and imposing the nihilistic idea that preserverence is ultimately pointless.