@@dukeofkings8942 A movie that everyone either forgot existed or never heard of: *Ernest Scared Stupid* A good watch with friends or family during October tho...
and then she meets the target of her vengeance and decides the cruelest thing she could do to him is let him live with the guilt of what he had done, with someone who's an absolute crone of a woman.
Zuko: I've already got our stuff packed. *A week Later* Katara: We're back from our vengeance quest, Aang: So how did it go? Katara: Zuko tricked me into letting go and living well. Zuko: Gets em every time.
Yeah, I felt it was a good arc but yuyuhakusho did it better with Hiei. He was toss off a cliff as a child for being a bastard son and survived but never tried to take revenge on his own, then years later his sister found him and let him know she wanted her village dead for doing that to her brother and he went there fully intending to honor her request, but after hearing his mother killed herself out of guilt and seeing how the entire village was already apathetic and dead inside, he decided to leave them be.
I mean in that specific case it was more that the character was talking to someone who hadn't yet had the chance to inflict pain, rather than someone who was actually innocent. Not only was Thanos about as far from innocent as you can get, past Thanos would have done exactly the same thing as future Thanos had done if given the chance. Though there is some relevance to the trope in the fact that a lot of Wanda's grief was self-inflicted from having tried and failed to stop Thanos from killing her lover by killing him herself, and actually getting a chance to believe that she'd succeeded for a few seconds before Thanos walked up and said, yeah I'm gonna resurrect your lover just so I can kill him myself, utterly undoing all of the reasons for the suffering you just went through in the process. Wanda had less reason to be mad at Thanos than she had to be mad at herself for not only killing her lover, but for failing to make that death meaningful.
I heard a story about a boy who cried when his village was burned down. He spent his entire life training, and building an army to get revenge on the people who did it. When he went to their village and burned it down, however, he saw a boy crying.
There's an interesting instance of this in Kill Bill when The Bride kills the black lady in front of her daughter and says to the little girl "If you're still angry about this when you grow up, I'll be waiting for you". It's like she says "I'm executing my own vengeance, so I can't very well deny you yours against me"
I *love* when a vengeance motivated character anticipates and encourages vengeance against themselves, by the people they hurt in their own pursuit of vengeance.
Inigo is a good example of only taking out his anger on the one who wronged him. Anyone he hurts outside of his singular desire for vengeance on Count Rugan is because he's a sword for hire and NOT because of his justifiable quest for vengeance. His motives in that regard fall heavily on the heroic side, even if he doesn't exactly act like a hero his whole life. GDI, I love that movie.
@@jmercedesd Inigo's story is probably the single best revenge story ever written. He completes his mission, hurts nobody else, and then immediately moves on to something else (piracy).
It's also interesting to note that Inigo doesn't necessarily feel satisfied after killing Count Rugen (Mandy Patinkin, Inigo's actor, says as much in an interview about Inigo's motivations). Inigo makes the Count promise him anything he wants and then says "I want my father back, you son of a bitch." It kind of illustrates Red's point of "how can this be fixed" vs "what will make me feel good." The tragedy comes from the fact that killing the Count doesn't actually give Inigo what he wants nor does it fix the situation that the Count created, but killing the Count doesn't necessarily make Inigo feel GOOD either, it just gives him a way to direct his grief towards a proactive goal. At the end, Inigo realizes that he still hasn't come to terms with his father's death, and while the Count's death will provide some closure, Inigo's father is gone.
@@gamingforever9121 It's mostly an example of how being completely unable to learn from your mistakes and think before you act leads to being unable to achieve your goals.
One of my favourite lines from the DiscWorld series is Death telling his granddaughter that Justice doesn't exist until humans make it so. "Grind the universe into the finest powder and sieve it through the finest sieve and find me one atom of justice one molecule of mercy." It's a dope line.
Justice is one of those things that people love to talk about "finding" as if it grows out of the ground or is hidden in some cave on a mountain. Justice has always been something that you need to make. Same for identity. I don't think anyone can find who they are written in an ancient scroll or hidden deep in the jungle. It's a choice you make.
@@zoro115-s6b Identity is easier to choose if you research before you make a decision though. That's mainly why intelectuals like to promote education, I think.
@@VashdaCrash That doesn't deliver answers about what you should do with your life though, it just informs you of options. IDK, I just feel as though far too many people, including me for a while, try to get a star or destiny or a personality test to tell them who they are and how they should act, or to find some amazing natural gift they have that they can base their identity around, rather than taking charge of their own life and deciding for themselves what kind of person they want to be and how they can get there.
@@zoro115-s6b It happens to most of us, realizing that you have to take matters on your own hands when it comes to yourself looks like a given but it's not so much, right? :)
It's always nice to remember that MLK Jr. was a pastor and could also cite theological explanations *specifically* to fuck with the people who were trying to pull "God said it's okay" on him.
True, that's what I really like about his old speeches, some random pastor would come from across to country to debate with him and MLK would absolutely destroy them with the calmest tone possible
How come when i do this on modern topics it doesn't work:( (i know why, it's really complicated but the idea is generally summarized in a video i can link if anyone wants to know)
@@Rowlesisgay My best guess in as short a time as possible: People are not always arguing what they are saying. Some people are arguing because they believe _going through the motions of this argument_ makes them a better person; some are arguing because their concept of your argument is entirely _different_ from what you are trying to explain; and some are arguing because _the only thing they know how to do_ is say their half of the argument, and they feel scared by the future but don't know what to do about it other than yell about this issue. People are not inherently rational creatures. It takes time and practice to argue perfectly rationally, and most people do not do that. The calm, measured response MLK used works mostly on _bystanders;_ it is most effective when there is a large audience, who are not already predisposed to hate you. If you're trying to persuade an individual, you're gonna have to understand that individual. _Why_ are they arguing this? What are they implying? They're implying _something,_ because people suck at explaining themselves, so what is the unstated belief in their argument? Do they even _have_ an unstated belief, or are they arguing this because they believe it is core to their identity to argue this? If it's about their identity, you're kinda fucked, I haven't figured out how to fix that.
@@imperatordrakon6488 no it's not. Justice means proportionate retribution to the person deserving it. Revenge means the person who wants it wants to hurt anyone they could possibly blame in a manner that will satisfy them without necessarily bring proportionate. It's like condemning a robber's daughter to prison because she arguably benefitted from it, yeah, sure she probably did, but it wasn't her decision to commit a crime, even if the robbed person will feel satisfied. It's why vigilantes can make really shitty decisions based on how they feel about the accused, because of unconscious bias for instance that's gonna lead them to enforce a disproportionate punishment
@@willmako5009 Justice often is vengeange, it just is proprotional (as decided by whoever is making the distinction) and aimed at the actual culprit (again, as determined by the person making the distinction). While i don't disagree with much of the things said in the video, it does not really go in depth to the subject that is lot more complicated than just selfish/not selfish or justified/not justified.
@@nyysjan That's not really correct. Restorative justice has no personal culprit (since they are already dead most of the time), but it has plenty of victim(s). Vengeance is simply one branch of justice, the retributive branch. But justice can be about rehabilitation, defending the innocent from wrong accusations and so on, most of the time all at once. Revenge plots usually only use two aspects: retribution and preventative (it must not happen again), which misses the healing aspect of justice entirely.
@@Elkator955 I'm not sure anything you say actually disagrees with me. Justice can be many things depending on context and situation. But my point is that trying to make a clean cut between revenge and justice does not work, because one can also be the other in many cases. Revenge plots tend to be more clear cut, because it is easy for writer to just make people making revenge clearly go too far and so neatly avoid any difficult discussions about morality if they do not want to delve into it. Except in cases where the author is fully onboard with the revenge, whilestill going way too far, but protagonist centered morality is a different trope entirely.
This is on the same grid as the "You Killed My Father Prepare to Die" trope. This is in the "Your Father Killed My Father, prepare to die" corner. Now we gotta fill out the other two corners.
The other two corners are "I killed your father, I'll kill myself" and below that, "My father killed your father, I'll kill myself" - the latter of which is also featured in this video.
"The day I visited your village and raised it to the ground was the most important day of your life and started you on a revenge quest. But for me, it was a Tuesday."
@@emblemblade9245 yep and them sounding the same is why speech to text messed it up. Le sigh. And I need to read them before I hit post and stop trusting it to just be right.
@@randallcraft4071 I think that's one of the good things that we, non native speakers have, we never trust what we writte and pass it to google translator first just to be sure
Red, you talked about a vengeance plot harming an innocent child by killing their parent, perpetuating the cycle of harm and vengeance, without referencing the best example of this: Kill Bill! The Bride- a former assassin who was betrayed by her fellow assassins on her wedding night, losing her groom, her child, and several years of her life- goes on a revenge streak against the rest of the Deadly Viper Assassination Squad. The first of the other assassins we see on screen has, in the intervening years, also married and had a daughter, and is content to live quietly in the suburbs. This does little to stop the Bride from killing the mother, ultimately right in front of the four-year-old little girl. Rather than make excuses, or try to apologize or set things right, the Bride simply tells the little girl that, when she's grown up and if she wants to get even, the Bride will be waiting for her. The cycle continues.
And that's what I like about the Kill Bill movies. It's likely that upon seeing her second target having settled down and having a kid of her own, the very thing that Beatrix Kiddo wanted to have but was violently ripped away from her, that sent her spiraling into hatred. Another example of Sins of the Father is from Red Dead Redemption. After getting the last member of John Marston's old gang in custody, things start returning to normal for him. But that corrupt U.S. Marshal stab him in the back, by laying siege to his family farm and kills him while his wife and son escape. Years pass and his son tracks his Father's killer by gathering info on him from his own family, which the game does give you the option to perform collateral here. The kicker is the line that his sister gives to you, "He just wants to live a quiet life now." Which is exactly what John Marston was promised after doing the dirt government official's job for him.
@@voidpickle5684 Well, just off the top of my head: pretty much anything involving Oedipus, his parents, or his children with his mom (eww); anything about the Trojan War; pretty much anything involving Agamemnon, his wife, and their children. And that's before you get into the gods being petty at people they don't like for various reasons (Heracles and so many others being punished for no other reason than being sons of Zeus as an example), and they're not above starting wars and feuds just to see whose side is better. The Trojan war, for example, was the Greeks blaming all Trojans for Paris absconding with Helen, but that only happened at all because some goddesses got in a bitching match over a golden apple, which only happened because Eris was butthurt about not being invited to a wedding. Escalating cycle of revenge has its footprints all over most of Greek literature and mythology, and therefore Greek theater as well.
I'm still mad that they retconned the "the Forerunners were actually humans" twist :c I thought it was really cool -- and it made a lot of sense in that universe, too!
@@user-vs3gc4cn3t I'm not 100% sure what you're asking, to be honest, but the line is the Gravemind from Halo. He's all but confirming that the Forerunners (his ancient enemies) were humans, and announcing his intention to carry that grudge over to Master Chief (and probably humanity in general). Hope that answers your question! :D
Can we talk about how this also happened in atla? Both Jet and Hama had reasons to hate the fire nation, like the gang, but they chose to harm innocent fire nation civilians. And the gang knows that this is bad despite their own personal grudges and those two characters become the villains of their episodes. Man this show is great.
Now THIS is the "vengence is bad" trope I actually like. No weird "killing only that one specific person makes you exactly as bad as that same specific person who committed genocide" funky morals
To quote the IDW Transformers comics on that concept: "Ratchet: No. If we kill him, we're no better than him. If we kill him, he wins. First Aid: Yeah, except we are better than him and he doesn't win. He doesn't anything. He's dead. That's the point."
@@Hulkzilla0 I mean, not exactly, the point of Batman's no killing rule isn't that the Joker shouldn't be killed, it's that, as a Vigilante, Batman doesn't have the right to make that decision.
@@zoro115-s6b And the counter argument is that every time he lets the Joker live, countless people are slaughtered in Joker's following crimes. I'm not saying that Batman should kill, or that he should cross that very specific line, but should a rule never be broken? Even if breaking that rule, just that once, will save hundreds down the road?
I think this trope is actually the reason for "eye for an eye." What most people forget about it, is that it is a set of laws. Hamurabi was setting the *upper limits* of acceptable vengeance, not the lower ones as people seem to use it as today. It's purpose is to *prevent* blood feuds. If damage has been done, you can do this much in retaliation and no more. The fact that it's misrepresented probably tells about how hard that was to enforce, but it is good to remember.
Yes, and speaking of which wasn't initial statement of god about bloodline responsibility applicable to primal sin? (though I could misremember things ere) This case is special, because primal sin isn't wrongdoing in regular way, but a natural state of the humanity. Yes, we suffer because of that. But without it we wouldn't even know that, as it is literally mater of possessing or not of the soul. Which is a sin, so in this sense we inherit the sin... our humanity from our parents.
@@TheRezro original sin was invented by Saint Augustine, who hated himself and made up original sin as a way of excusing his past transgressions as part of his nature as a human being.
@@scotcheggable He popularized the idea, but it is also present in the bible. So no, he did not invented it. Though the open debate is if it is transgression or the responsibility given to us with right to be here. That apparently is core debate between Satan and the God, with most prominent example in story of the Job.
@@TheRezro I was brought up in a family where the concept of “generational curses” came up a lot. The way that my mother and grandmother described them to us was one part biblical curse/original sin, one part how someone is raised, and one part genetics. So for example, addictions would be seen as a generational curse as they are passed down through a family by way of both socialization (addict parents raising kids who become addicts themselves) and the way addiction changed genetics and makes children of addicts more susceptible to addiction themselves.
You know Kratos might actually be the only example of this that I can think of whose pulled just about every angle on this. He got angry and took revenge on pretty much everyone in range even after he ran out of people to target directly then eventually learned to break the cycle and let go of his anger.
@@Captianmex1C0 No, in that world the different regions have different pantheons from the start, but he did basically destroy Greece. As for what's happening in the upcoming game, Ragnarök was caused by Atreyu(Loki) killing Balder.
There's another angle to the biblical 'sins of the father' deal; that it's not an instruction to punish children for their parents crimes, but a prediction of how your failings affect your children. For example, Jacob's mother favors him over his brother Esau and helps Jacob to Esau's detriment, so when Jacob has kids, he also picks a favorite, Joseph, treats him differently than his brothers, who are so upset that they sell him into slavery. The first parent does something bad, and their children copy them, and eventually it turns to evil. So, less vengeful god and more cycle of abuse.
@@chuggedchugga6844 Adam and Eve ate from the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. They were told by God not to eat the fruit. They didn't *know* why they shouldn't, only that God said "No". One can't make a good decision without knowing *why* it's a negative decision.
My favorite example(s) of this is for sure Teen Titans as Raven often has to deal with this and it shows that having to deal with the sins of her literal demon lord dad has caused her to feel that sometimes she is no better than him. It really shows the emotional toll on the person receiving the basically underserved punishments.
My main character deals with undeserved punishment and hatred too as well as his own faults. On top of having autism, his mental health is extremely weak...
It is only a great example of moving past it. Even though she is literally the daughter of the devil and was used as a weapon to destroy her old world...no one blames her. Despite everything the people that loved her in her old world still loved her despite how she was used against them. They didn't want vengence against her nor did they blame her and the same happened for the teen titans. They saw what happened "thanks" to her but rather than regretting being her friend or feeling vengence they simply wanted to help her fight her own curse.
@@bibbobella Raven is unique in that she is both the embodiment of "born unlucky" (she was specifically made as a tool for Trigon) and "I know this is bad, but I must do it." The latter could be portrayed as villainous, but then the former comes in: She is the product of rape, she does evil and despises herself for it, she desires freedom but knows she is connected to her literal demon of a father.
@@colt9836 Well in the comics she pretty frequently loses herself to rage, and becomes a monster without any sort of cause. Thankfully her friends tend to do the old "I know you're in there somewhere fight", but it doesn't really change that she's done some bad stuff just because she wanted to. Trigon is responsible for some of that, but ultimately Raven isn't perfect.
Learning from your mistakes is good. Learning from other peoples' mistake is better because we can't have every single person fucking up just so they can have their cathartic lesson. Learning from fictional peoples' mistakes is even better than that because we shouldn't need the fuck up to actually happen in the first place to know that we shouldn't have done that.
And yet no one ever actually gets the message of the revenge stories. Which happens a lot, like with robot uprising stories. A lot of people will blame the robots for turning evil rather than blaming the humans for mistreating them
@@landoakechi9406 I always blame the humans for not having an "off" switch. Also, for creating machines with emotions and treating them like slaves, which is weird...
@@Jake007123 Or creating perfect machines that can self sustain, replicate, and have almost no weak spots, and then fail to disable them when they eventually go rogue.
@@Jake007123 true, why give a toaster a sense of pain, morality and ability to think, all I want it to do is burn bread, no need to create literal mechanical slaves...
As someone who’s been dealing with heavy trauma, the moment I stopped wishing for some kind of justice and started just actively working to heal is a transformative one.
@@Peecamarke seeking justice and seeking revenge and very different things that lead to very different outcomes, for a really REALLY good study of this see GoW Ragnarok
Snape: YOU'LL PAY FOR THE SINS OF YOUR FATHER! Harry: My father's dead and I've been abused by my relatives for the entirety of my life. In a place I thought was safe, I've been relentlessly hunted, bullied, and near death more than a couple times. No thanks to you. Snape: ...
One of the best revenge stories that actually briefly touches on the Sins of the Father is Kill Bill. After finishing off one of the people that tried to kill her, the titular character tells the child of the person that she just killed that if they want to, at some point in the future they could come after her and she wouldn't judge them for it.
I prefer when the revenge stories actually either recognizce their hypocresy or decide to commit to the whole cycle of revenge and not just go for the kinda cliche "I have already killed a lot of people already, so I will just stop myself from achieving my revenge just when i have already debatably done way worse" Either you commit fully to it, or never try to go through it in first place.
"You want vengeance? Go out and find the man who did it, but I won't stand here and watch you kill thousands of innocents." "There are no innocents! Not anymore. Anyone one of them could have stood up and said 'We won't behave like animals anymore!'" -Castlevania, an amazing Netflix show
I was wondering if anyone would bring up Castlevania. Because in a way, Dracula and Alucard both are connected to “sins of the fathers” arcs. Dracula punished all of humanity for killing his wife, while Alucard suffered solely because he was Dracula’s son and part vampire
15:22 this is the belief of Dracula and also why he's wrong. Obviously punishing the entire race for something a single person did is wrong, even if sometimes having the impulse to do so because of an event is relatable.
@@-Extra_Lives also the mass of people were mostly innocent and also victems. They didn't speak up because if they did they were next on the chopping block. Though that jealous bitch who ratted needded to be gutted. She was selling FOOT GUNK POWDER! EW! She probally killed more than one person with her crappy "treatments" EW! (A note to all bots I'm talking about a 100% fictional character)
Dracula makes a good poimt though where he is right, all those people just stood by and chanted or watched as the priest did his thing. Even after Dracula *personaly* comes to warn them, they don't speak up, get rid of the priest, etc.. At that point, they became the bad guys since they just stood by as evil happened and did nothing. I'm reminded handily of that quote "the only thing that will stop an bad guy with a gun, is a good guy with a gun".
@@anelbegic2780 Yeah like, honestly that's kinda the issue with trying to go "one person is responsible for the bad things they did and everyone around them is 100% blameless and innocent". The only reason to hold that worldview is because you can think of examples where you'd be held responsible and you don't want others to hold you responsible. Any time you could have done something to stop it, you hold guilt for enabling it if you don't. Just because that makes people feel bad about some times they failed to do the right thing doesn't make it less true.
I'm shocked that the Netflix Castlevania anime wasn't brought up here. Vengeance is the primary motivation of nearly every single character in that show, and each has a different model and circumstance. Notably, Dracula tries to wipe out the human race because a bishop killed his wife for witchcraft, which is a perfect example of villainous revenge.
@@chanceofbliss8175 i can't wait to watch season 4. During season 3 I was always like : "I dont care about belmont and family, what happens to isaac". I loved him becoming a character on his own
If you liked that terrible hot mess, you should really play the games, or at least watch walkthroughs on RUclips - much better exploration of vengeance vs justice since all of the different characters who have a motivation are usually pitted against a foil with a different revenge plot (Lament of Innocence and Curse of Darkness are especially explicit and the reason I’m still salty and will die mad about Netflix buying the rights and ruining any chance we might have to getting a better adaptation, but Portrait of Ruin, Symphony of the Night and the Sorrow Chronicles even dip into some of this subtext). Seriously - check the source material and join me in my love for the good stuff and hatred of the awful show.
I really like how Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood handles this with Scar, who both becomes the person seeking vengance for the sins of others, and becomes the target of vengeance for his own sins, and how this forces his arc to change, espcially after meeting Major Miles.
The 2003 version was even better. The Brotherhood version pretty much get's a free pass for his actions in the end while the 03 version takes them straight to the end.
@@matteste The Brotherhood version doesn't get a "free pass"; he learns to put aside his wrath to focus on rebuilding, helps the heroes save the world from the ones who orchestrated the Ishval massacre, and fights Wrath and is nearly killed in the process. After that, he is presumed dead and is able to focus on rebuilding. And if you think he needed at least a trial or something, then you can consider the scene in season 4 where he's captured by the Briggs troops to be his trial.
Inigo Montoya: "You know, It's very strange. I have been in the revenge business for so long, that now that it's over, I don't know what to do with the rest of my life."
I'm pretty sure that Spinel is unique among the individuals who follow the sins of the father trope on Steven Universe, since I'm pretty sure she's the only one who actually recognizes Steven as being a different person. Jasper, the Diamonds, they- like most gems- didn't understand that Steven was a different being entirely
Pink was a terrible person, she didn't even come back for Spinel even after the war was over. Abandoning Spinel was when her character wasn't developed yet was already bad, but not coming back for her is unforgivable and also makes Pink a giant hypocrite
Vengeance is like a grenade. When you throw it at somebody, you have to be okay with anyone and everyone near that person getting hurt. Also if you don't do it properly, It will blow up in your face.
Excellent analogy; I especially like it because you can infer that, just like a grenade, there exists a context in which it's the right option. You just need to make damn sure you correctly identify that context.
@@maximsavage In my opinion, there is never a context in which killing/throwing a grenade is the right option, because killing or hurting someone, is never a good or right option. Just because someone did something bad, doesn't mean it is right to do something bad to said person .
@@stianasmus3292 I think killing is only the right option, when it is directly done to stop the person from directly killing another person and only when there is no other option stopping them
@@stianasmus3292 Unfortunately, this is real life where there ARE people who WILL wish to do you and your loved ones harm. Hopefully you don't run into many, but if you do, protecting yourself and your loved ones is the priority and is justified. There's a reason self defense classes teach and use violence... because there comes a time in life where violence IS the justified and necessary answer. There are instances using whatever weapon is nearby to kill is 100% justified and necessary. Is it 100% of the time? Nope, which is why I loathe it when young kids who are mentally undeveloped enough to understand the nuance of war/ violence making light of extremely violent films and games. It is not okay nor should it be commonplace to be violent towards each other; glorifying violence is not okay. But when it comes to protecting people, you need to be able and willing to match and defeat your adversary. Out thinking can win time, but without force (sometimes including grenades) those smarts aren't enough. I sincerely hope you live a privileged enough life to not experience implementing violence, let alone the fear and healing needed for all parties involved. Even if you do it's better to be prepared. Even the kindest animals have teeth.
It's funny how she talks about 'Only the villains really do that kind of undirected revenge and hurting everyone even tangentially related to the baddie' and I immediately think of the protagonist of every Chinese revenge novel or comic ever.
Power fantasy is practically its own bubble of tropes. Things normally mostly reserved for villains become "heroic" motivations for the protagonist, even if they're often disgusting from an audience perspective. Redo of Healer is a pretty egregious example of this. It's weirdly popular for completely out-of-proportion, villainous revenge to be painted as a good thing. Pretty frequently associated with "suffering porn" stories where morality has completely flown out the window in favor of grimdark. Even if the protagonist's revenge is justified, their methods, no matter how dour, are painted as something the audience should be revelling in. This falls flat on its face when it's taken to a fetishistic degree where sympathizing with the protagonist becomes impossible.
Well, most Chinese media that's intended for the Chinese public is designed to legitimize the methods of the CCP so that no one tries to contradict them from a moral standpoint. At least, that's how it appears to be given how all Chinese media I've ever seen has the "good guys" committing horrific acts and shitting all over the concept of ethics.
@@CodeRed99911 There's a strong case to be made for a well-written antihero, or hell, a straight up villain protagonist. Just as such, an antagonist doesn't need to be a villain. That's why I create a boundary between "focal character" and "moral actions." If the focal character is committing immoral actions, but the author desperately wants you to see them as moral ie a "hero," or at the very least totally justified no matter how extreme and out-of-hand it gets, there's a noticeable disconnect. There's good power fantasy and bad power fantasy. Bad power fantasy has all of the edge of a middle schooler's worldview with less nuance than the average porno story.
@@maximsavage Chinese Web Novels don't count as "all" chinese media, Jesus Christ, you are delusional, dictatorship never endorses their atrocities, they deny them, web novel authors are just assholes (though not all of them, Release That Witch, for example), plain and simple.
I remember reading a story where a young man meets a knight who his father wronged, after a while of talking it turns out the knight didn't come for revenge but rather to make sure the young man wouldn't cause anyone pain like his father. In the end character A decided to simply make sure no suffering of others would be caused by character C because they were related to character B who is now dead.
The fact that this is a recurrent problem in real life is pretty telling of how easy it is to fall into this line of thought and escalate things to the point that they become all out wars
"Oi! A guy from YOUR country killed our arch-duke!" "Oi! You cant bully bosnia, we're friends!" "Oi! You cant bully austria, we're friends!" "Oi! You cant bully belgium, we're friends!"
"No they don't! One guy will have one eye left and can just hide behind a bush or something! Man, Ghandi was wrong!" - Billy Bickle, Seven Psychopaths Paraphrasing here, been a while since I saw that film. The detail about hiding behind a bush always gave me a chuckle.
Dio, this is basically Dio's grudge with the Joestar family. Literally almost everything that happens up until Part 6 was either directly or indirectly caused by him
Execs at Disney: "Ok, now go go do something undeniably evil because we can't think of a good reason for the heroes to oppose you. We can't just have the audience supporting you completely, that might threaten the status quo that we benefit from too much!" *cough* Karly deserved better *cough*
And what's funny is that's them TRYING to make justification for human characters. Live Action Bullseye for instance, while not a revenge plot, is made to feel way more sympathetic then his comic counter part is was a born phycopath who cares for no one. And I can guarantee you live action Taskmaster is prob not gonna have ANY of the same motivation as his comic counter part.
@@andreuva4782 comic Taskmaster is kind of tragic. He loses his memories whenever he learns new abilities, doesn't remember he was a S.H.I.E.L.D agent or that he is still married and has a child. All Tony Masters wants is to learn new things regardless of how he does it
@@troyjardine5850 Karli is actually a very interesting example here because Sam does wholeheartedly agree with her cause. Karli's malicious actions are framed as her personal failings, not the Flag Smashers', meaning they could come back in some new form.
@@OverlyPositiveFanboy That was my take on it. Karli was the problem, because she wasn't upholding any ideals or holding to any kind of ethics, she was just fighting to win. I was sympathetic to the cause, but not the character. She dismissed the lives of anyone getting in her way too easily.
With the "You look like someone who wronged me" trope, it seems like there's often an opposite trope as well, where the villian thinks one of the heroes (usually a woman) looks like a loved one so they don't exact vengance on them. The 90s Dracula, Soultaker (that terrible Joe Estevez MST3K movie), the list goes on
Black Clover did a clever subversion of the trope: there's a villain who is out to avenge their fallen tribe, and, when up against one of the heroes, they say that they couldn't bring themselves to hurt the hero, while the audience is shown an image of the person that the villain is thinking of, leading the audience to think that it's this trope. However, a strong hint at his actual reason comes when the villain says, "You'll understand, soon enough..." Spoilers ahead: The villain's plan is to revive their fallen tribe by putting their preserved souls in host bodies and having the souls take over the hosts, and said hero is one such host; that's the reason the villain couldn't hurt that hero.
Hera knew Zeus would cheat on her. She didn't even want to be with Zeus she was kind of made to because Greek myth be strange and Hera is the goddess of marriage.
@@paleopotato736 True. Don'r think it made her more kindly disposed toward Zeus - or his children. Should have made her feel more for the rape victims abd innocent children - but like red said, it's more about rage than justice.
You say the lookalike version is refreshingly fictional, but when I was in high school I got sucker punched by someone from a different school and broke my nose because they mistook me for someone else they actually had beef with. They were at least nice enough to go "sorry mate, I thought you were someone else" when they realised the person currently bleeding on the floor in front of them had no idea what was going on
My condolences. I've had stuff like that happen more than once, but the worst case was at work one time. I got called into the office about a customer complaint and had no idea what my boss was talking about but apparently I complained about a customer and he overheard it even if it wasn't directed at him. Nothing came of it, just a warning. Then a week or so later this guy came through my line and started yelling how I should be ashamed of myself and why he did the thing he did that was complained about and his wife was looking embarrassed and nudging him as she said "Honey, I don't think that's the same girl." And suddenly everything made sense to me he was angry at one of my coworkers who just happened to have similar skin and hair color as me. I'll admit I got mad every time I saw him after that because even if he wasn't angry in later trips (I can only assume his wife brought it to his attention after they left he made a mistake) but he never corrected my boss to my knowledge and all I could think when seeing him was how I didn't want to speak with him, he could have cost me my job.
They say “he who seeks revenge remember to dig two holes” for a reason. It’s a ultimately self-destructive objective, and will just leave you cold and empty on the inside. It’s why I love revenge stories, it’s not just about making someone pay, usually it’s about growing and learning a lesson, though usually too late.
I remember that line from “Jigoku Shoujo” it’s an anime about the “Victim of the Week” (sometimes innocent sometimes shady) going to “Hell Website” to enact their vengeance on their respective targets wether they deserve it or not, it gets greyer as the show goes on
2:17 a good example is professor Snape to Harry. Snape cannot unleash his anger upon James because he is dead, so the next best thing is Harry, who looks near identical to James.
Actually kinda funny that the major plot of FMA brotherhood is sins of the father in a very literal way just with a little less vengeance in the traditional form of this trope.
This actually reminds me of Snape's relationship with Harry in Harry Potter. The only reason Snape doesn't like harry is because he's James' son and looks exactly like him. And for this crime that Harry literally can't help, Snape treats him like garbage. While Snape is justified in not liking James and is under no obligation to forgive the person that made his life hell for like, 7 years, directing that anger at Harry is completely unjustified and uncalled for.
Let's not forget that Snape by no means restricts his torment to Harry. Consider that Neville, a kid who had both his parents tortured to the point of insanity, had Snape as his greatest fear. Snape managed to be THAT shitty to his students. The dude was an all-around scumbag to an utterly unjustifiable degree.
He was quite a complex character. He hated Harry's father but loved his mother. He tried his best to protect him while also despising his out of spite for his old enemy.
@@zoro115-s6b or, and I haven't read the books in a long time, Neville is just easily scared of authority figures with exceedingly high expectations? Snape if I remember correctly was shown to be excessively strict towards griffindors, so naturally Neville, who constantly makes mistakes, would be terrified of the strict, cold faced professor who doesn't sugar coat his words and who he sees almost every single day of the year
@@iiiivvvv9986 Snape literally tried to poison Trevor- Neville's toad. If Hermione hadn't cheated to help Neville fix his potion... well, I think there's plenty of direct torment in that one instance alone. There are plenty more, though. Neville is scared of people who hold power over him, but it's not of specific people usually. Snape, though? Yeesh.
I clicked on this video expecting fun rundowns and analyses of a couple shows and got deep reflections on the morality of vengeance, the cause of wars and crimes against humanity, responsibility and much more. Man, I love this channel
Katara overcoming the urge to kill the man who killed her mother is just... Amazing. All this talk of vengeance just made me think of that. It's really the best moment in Avatar.
I really love that she still didn't forgive him. She just let go of her desire to kill him, realizing it wouldn't bring her mother back. It wouldn't undo her pain, but it allowed her to forgive Zuko. Who was truly sorry and truly trying to be better.
I mean, that depends on what you define as vengeance. They are plenty of forms of vengeance where it's totally about seeking justice like the death penalty for murder.
@@emblemblade9245 To be fair all Elya did was get a bit of advice and take the runt of the litter which most likely wouldve died or been killed, he did all the work carrying it uo the mountain and even learned his lesson about Myra at the end, Madame Zeroni was kind of a jerk, it was just a runty pig, especially considering that she punished his innocent ancestors, (insert red's ethics of vicarious revenge speech here)
Hey, red! Trope talk suggestion for you; "The noodle incident" or "Noodle incidents" are a literary tool that gives more literary weight to an event or mcguffin than a description would, mostly by context and the reader's imagination. Named because of a short series of Calvin and Hobbes comics wherein everyone at school gives the eternally frustrated 6-year-old grief about something he did in the past that is now known only as "The noodle incident." It is hinted at vaguely many times, but the writer ultimately leaves it up to your imagination; which is a strength because whatever the audience dreams up will be way more literarily impactful (in this case funny) than anything he could write down. And that's not even the only time that comic uses a noodle incident, see, there's this kids book calvin always wants read called "Hampster Hewwy and the Gooey Kablooey" and Now I'm ranting. Another instance this trope is used is in an S.C.P. story wherein a certain slime MUST NEVER come into contact with a human corpse. Why? That's classified. A foundation researcher files the suggestion to test the slime on a human corpse because it's never listed what happens, only that it is a V E R Y bad idea, and the researcher is curious. He gets demoted and heavily scolded by an O-5, who states "Just don't." A "Noodle Incident" is a rare trope that involves telling the audience that something exists or happened, but not telling them what it was, in order to give the plot point more narrative weight than a description would give it, partly because of the imaginations of the audience. It is a great trope that I think you should cover.
@@justsomejerseydevilwithint4606 It's a cartoon series, not a book. But yes, for half of the first season, things would be explained by "because of the Llama incident," but without ever explaining the context.
The sins of the father is something that often ties into sports rivalries as well, especailly the non-geographic ones. The players that may have got that rivalry started may be long gone, but the hatred between the teams and their selective fanbases is almost baked into their collective identities. And it often only takes one slight against the other to kick it off
So like that war between Honduras and El Salvador. The war wasn’t exactly about the fútbol matches between the two, but it did increase the tensions between the two nations and ended up being a trigger/last straw.
Damn, I’m now imagining a reimagining of Romeo and Juliet set in the modern day, where the feud is just two families who support rival teams. (Also, no one dies in this version, they just go to the hospital for injuries from fights or stupid stunts. And the wedding scene is just one of the young lovers giving the other their dad’s old class ring.)
Hell, the OSU-Michigan rivalry started because the two states went to war over a city. The government ruled that Ohio got the city, and Michigan got the UP.
You know, I've come across an interesting sociological explanation for vengeance before. So at its most basic, simple level, vengeance can be interpreted as a message: "Don't mess with me or you'll pay for it." Someone kills your wife and kids? You kill them, and then maybe people will be less likely to mess with you for it. The problem is your wife and kids will still be dead, and while any future wife and children might be thus made marginally safer, you're probably getting on in years and anyways they're not quite the same thing. So vengeance has a pretty poor payoff for the individual, considering. But what about for the community? Say Bob of the Berserker tribe goes on a roaring rampage of revenge after his family is killed, wreaking untold havoc on his attackers before dying in battle. The Berserker tribe could then start telling his story, and identifying with him, and above all, passing on the story to OTHER tribes and making sure THEY know them too. "Yeah, you heard of the Berserker tribe? Someone killed Bob's family once and in return he nearly wiped out an entire tribe. Berserkers are crazy, man, don't mess with them, it's not worth it." Thus, even though Bob doesn't benefit, the Berserkers DO, and thus encourage and cultivate an attitude of "I must have vengeance," lionizing Bob as a cultural hero because this helps protect the community at large. Of course, by cultivating such an attitude, they encourage others of the community to go on similar revenge rampages if they're wronged, thus growing the legend of "Those Berserkers you really don't want to mess with." There's two problems with this, though - first, if you keep encouraging generation after generation to take vengeance for slights, eventually you're very likely to end up with a culture that's caught up squabbling with each other over the slightest fault, making it hard for them to cooperate with either outsiders or each other. That leads into the second problem - that eventually, society develops in such a way that cooperating with each other on a scale larger than tribes and making sure such squabbles don't get out of hand is more beneficial to a community than the less sophisticated defense mechanisms of the past. It's HARD to run a modern society when everyone has a deep, emotional, and culturally-encouraged need to take personal vengeance on anyone who wrongs them. I'm extrapolating here, but this feels like where a lot of the "Revenge only harms everyone involved" stories come from - attempts to culturally push back against older narratives of "Revenge is totally awesome and everyone should do it" as societies get to the point where the costs start outweighing the benefits. It's interesting to note, however, that honor-based revenge cultures tend to be more common in societies without strong central authority, i.e. without someone they can turn to for impartial justice. That comes with a corollary - if ever a society comes to either lose the central authority, or come to believe in its inability to deliver justice for any reason (such as, say, massive corruption), we might very well find stories praising revenge becoming increasingly popular...
For a real world example of that last paragraph just look at the story of the kill-dozer. Dude turned a bulldozer into a tank and destroyed a shit ton of property because some rich asshole(s) and the local government they paid off continually screwed him over.
My favorite version of this trope is Zuko’s relationship with his past and the legacy of the fire nation and Katara’s relationship with the fire nation, her mother’s killer, and therefore Zuko in Avatar: the Last Airbender. Especially how this plays out in The Southern Raiders. Because both of the are dealing with the ramifications of the different types of “sins of the father”, Katara taking on the role of the avenger.
Not just that, but Katara learns through her quests with Aang that the citizens of the fire nation aren’t some superpowered maniacal order, they’re just… people. People that are trying to live their lives and do their best. And people who also need her and Aang’s help (as we’ve seen in “The Painted Lady”) She never executes her revenge on people who are undeserving. When Zuko offers to help her get closure, she may be still willing to use any means necessary to get her revenge, but only on those who deserve it, namely, the man who took Kaya from her
my personal favorite would be Ace from One Piece. Since we know the sins he obtained weren’t justified because his father was on the wrong side of the law but not on the wrong side of things like humanity and morality.
@@joshuaatehortua7352 Oh, yeah! Ace dealt with that shit his whole life. To the point where he hated Roger, even though they probably would’ve gotten along pretty well. Probably hurt Whitebeard a lot with how much Ace resented Roger, considering how close the two of them were.
@@joshuaatehortua7352 , One Piece is the only form of media where the Sins of the Father Troop was done perfectly, and outside of that there’s never been a form of media that does the Sins of the Father Troop as perfectly as One Piece does.
@@Grim_Sister It's a shame that Katara had to act high and mighty to cover up the fact that she knew stealing Appa from Aang to go on that journey with Zuko was wrong. "Tch, I knew you wouldn't understand". Then again, characters with certain inherent attributes are apparently free from accountability because "systemic oppression".
The entire plot for first three seasons of “The Dragon Prince” is based on breaking the cycle of bearing the sins of the forefathers. It’s actually blatantly said by Callum in one of the first episodes that revenge creates an endless and pointless cycle that accomplishes nothing. It’s such a great show, 10/10.
I also like that the show doesn't have any of those "always forgive everyone for everything, no matter what" busted morals. It doesn't tell us we need to forgive Viren, because Viren is just an awful person. Instead it's about breaking the cycle by not punishing people for what their parents did, and standing up to the people trying to perpetuate it for their own gain.
Except its unrealistic(despite show trying to not be black and white). How am I supposed to believe that dragons and elves are suddenly not racist towards humanity because this one human boy returned this one dragon baby(even if its a prince).
@@DeathKitta I'm pretty sure that the later seasons would address that, after all we only saw a few types of elves and only two dragons (minus the flashback of the dragon king and the other dragons during the fight with the monster soldiers) who we can clearly see their perspective on humans (one of whom still hates humans). There will definitely be some who still hold deep grudges.
@@DeathKitta It is a fantasy cartoon, so idk if they’re banking that hard into realism, haha! If I was a writer for the show, I would probably write the next season to show there is still severe division between the magical races despite the dragon prince being returned, but I guess we’ll have to see how they handle the next season! We haven’t really gotten a chance to see the widespread effect of outcome of the dragon princes’s returns. But yeah! Excited all the same! 👌
11:15 Red: "Pretty much the atypical example of this is-" Me: "The Hatfield and the McCoy." Red: "Romeo and Juliet." Me: "Ooooohhhhh yeeeeeeaaaaaaah. I keep forgetting that whole thing was warring families and not _just_ two dumbs teens whose parents didn't want them to be together." Thanks for the video Red.
Because it was not mentioned in this episode jet: Avatar actually had an episode concerning the sins of the father: in Chapter Eleven: The Great Divide there are two tribes that hated each other for centruies. So, Spoiler i guess, Aang resolves the situation by making up a complety harmless version of the inciting incident. And then everyone is kinda: okay no more reason to hate each other i guess, lets get along instead. And they do. And it is hillarius to me. Also Avatar is soo good you guys.
People are upset that Aang told a lie. But I'm like "jeez, these tribes were fully willing to slaugher each other over nothing. This lie saved lifes and ended a stupid feud."
Imagine this: Person B being targeted for the "sins of their father" ends up becoming like their father in order to survive the wrath of Person A and potentially even stop them. After all their father usually has bested them before now they'll do it again as their son. Or daughter.
My brain every time someone talks about tropes/themes even though the entire point is that they’re recurring in media: woah this sure does apply to a lot of Things
Red missed out a good opportunity to mention Scar from FMAB. He didn't just go after the State alchemists, he also targeted Ed - a literal child - even though Ed played no role in the Ishval War. His journey ends in him fighting and defeating the literal manifestation of Wrath, and reprimanding Mustang who was after the same vengeance as Scar.
Scar is an especially good example when you look at the manga and brotherhood. His very first kills were the Rockbells, who had just saved his life and weren't even alchemists. The scene where he meets Winry and realizes that he'd done to her exactly what had been done to him and he couldn't even justify it was a really well done turning point for both of them, especially when Winry acknowledges she has no intention of forgiving him but chooses to do better than him anyway.
You know. I never even thought of that final fight between Scar and Wraith in that way before now. Huh... That does add quite a bit of extra weight to that whole encounter symbolically.
5:14 I have a favorite example of this: ...Don't hunt 'em 'cause you been wronged. Hunt 'em 'cause what they did was wrong. There's a world of difference there, kid. One makes you selfish. The other makes you a hero. And I see a hero in you. And with this last good lesson, a gift. I know it feels right in your hand-its weight easy, its trigger smooth. Use it as you will-I know you'll use it right. It's yours now, 'til the last flame dies and all words've been spoken. 'Til that time. Safe journeys. Straight aim. And good huntin'. J. -A letter to Shin Malphur from his third father, Jaren Ward, written before Ward's ill-fated showdown with the infamous Dredgen Yor in the wooded hollow beyond Beggars' Gulch
"There are no Innocents! Not anymore! Any one of them could have stood up and said 'No, we won't behave like ANIMALS anymore.'" Vlad Dracula Tepes, Castlevania; Season 1, Episode 1
"We can admit that we're killers, but we're not going to kill today. That's all it takes. Knowing that we're not going to kill, today." - Capt. James Kirk.
Not... really? Rose has a lot of baggage, sure, but all of these problems are because Spinel and the Diamonds are petty assholes and Rose thought after so long that they were never coming back. As far as Rose knew, Steven would never have had to deal with all of this. Even Steven himself admitted that Rose didn't want him to deal with her problems.
I don't think so. From her perspective it's been 5000 years since the war. They've been living on the peaceful planet with no threats (accept for the corrupted gems). So she didn't know that the moment she is gone all this things will happen
"No matter how bad character B is, associating with them is not the equivalent of doing whatever character B did" sadly too few people understand this.
@Mac mcskullface That's a different matter. Red was clearly talking about a situation where being somehow related to the villain is the only connection the target of the vengance has to the original crime.
@Mac mcskullface That still doesn't make it exactly the same; "not-so-innocent bystander" winds up being on a lower rung of the Spectrum of Badness. Depending on the exact context, of course they can still be held partially responsible, but they're still _not_ the people who actually _did_ the things, and that's important to remember.
I always loved the wink and nudge "Kill Bill" has to this. When the Bride kills Vernita and Vernita's daughter sees the Bride standing over her mother's body just afterward, the Bride acknowledges that, although she had hoped to leave the child out of this and minimize collateral damage, she has literally no defense if the daughter later chooses to seek revenge on her for the death of her mother. The resigned reaction of "I really can't blame you if you want to do the same to me one day," coupled with the fact that, at that point in the story, the Bride believes her own child paid the ultimate price for her "sins" always really stuck with me.
Concept: Character A is horribly wronged by Character B. A goes to seek vengeance on B who is with child character C who ends up abandoned by B and probably homeless after B flees the scene in typical villain fashion. What follows is a road-trip of teeth clenched teamwork and found family.
I think Red addressed that when she mentioned "healing". Personally, I think getting away from or even killing your abuser in self-defense is an act of healing, since you're basically taking a stand and not letting this person hurt you anymore. The "anger" part that Red is talking about seems to be if you're already in a situation where you are far away and safe from your abuser, but you decide that someone needs to be responsible for your suffering, and you take it out on someone tangentially related to the abuser, like a relative of theirs. I have a bit of firsthand experience from this because my dad emotionally and financially abused my mom, and throughout my childhood she would sometimes blow up at me and my siblings when we did something that reminded her of our father.
Ya know that’s actually arguably the point of anger from an evolutionary standpoint. It’s a feeling motivates a commonly rational mind into an aggressive or even violent state to protect itself or entities essential to it. But it’s kind of an inelegant mechanism that hasn’t aged well, which is kind of the root reason why so many people with past trauma and repressed frustration have anger issues.
Speaking as another person who was hurt and got away, I'll also defend the hell out of anger. Anger can't tell you what to do, but it can tell you that you don't deserve what you're being given ... and if you _can_ figure out what to do, it can give you energy to do it. Emotions aren't right or wrong, actions are. And if you know what your feelings are and aren't telling you, then you can use that to figure out what to do.
Agreed wholeheartedly. I was going to write a long comment about how my anger has literally kept me alive when I otherwise would’ve ended it, but I’m just going to leave it at that.
"Then, it will happen this way: You make the kill; but you find that your pain doesn't die with [the man who murdered your family]. So you go off into the night to find another face... and another... and another... until vengeance has become your whole life. And you won't know why." -- Batman Forever
@@matthewmuir8884I’d add one more bit to great things in that movie: “You see I’m both Bruce Wayne and Batman. Not because I have to be. But because I choose to be.” I love the idea of a Bruce who conquers his demons and reaches a point where he doesn’t need to be Batman, but chooses to remain as him because Batman is an important force for good.
@@magnusprime962 That was a good line and concept as well. _Batman Forever_ had all the ingredients for a great Batman film, and I would like to see a Batman film try again at some of those ideas: Batman reaching a point where he doesn't need to be Batman but keeps being Batman by choice as you said, and I'd like to see another attempt at Robin (The Dark Knight Rises doesn't count).
"Pain and suffering are a kind of currency passed from hand to hand until they reach someone who receives them but does not pass them on." ~ Simone Weil
Which is tragic, because all Kratos did was redirect the flow of revenge, making himself the object of Baldirs families revenge. Which is the rare example of C killing A, earning the wraith of B.
@@lordbiscuitthetossable5352 Baldr/Baldur. But, you are correct. Granted, Freya's desire for vengeance is misplaced, as Baldur was an adult capable of making his own choices, and he _was_ warned against what he did, but she's in mourning and not thinking straight. And probably not willing to compromise on her oaths of vengeance. And even if she were, that is cold comfort.
@@andyknightwarden9746 Thank you for the correction! I couldn't recall the spelling immediately during the short period of time I had my phone open. But that's the thing that more stories should take note of; the desire for revenge *can* be circumstantial righteous, but is much more unlikely to be irrational. I mean; even fundamentally as a people, we love to villainize people who inconvenience us. Freya is that ramped up to 20, overly protective to a fault and ultimately is a pretty unintentionally wicked person who is directly responsible for everything that happens within the story. She is the absolute last person who should be seeking revenge, yet will because she is entirely incapable of setting aside her helicopter mother complex for the greater good for even a moment. Probably arguably more terrifying than Baldur ever was. An incredibly dramatic note to end that chapter of the story on.
Think one of my favorite uses of this trope is the plot of Final Fantasy XIV: Heavensward, which combines several different variants wonderfully. You've got an immortal dragon holding an entire KINGDOM responsible for the crimes of its first king and his court, even after millennia, since to an ageless being, it might as well have been yesterday. Meanwhile only a small portion of the kingdom's nobility ever benefited from the actions of their forefathers; fewer still are even aware of it, perpetuating the war they wage in self-defense as a holy crusade rather than admit any wrongdoing in their nation's history.
Heavensward being "the award winning expansion pack" was most definitely deserved. Currently my second favorite story out of all of the game, shb being the first by a wide margin. (Try as it might endwalker just hasn't topped it so far for me)
*"Anger. Is like an amber. Blow on it, and it shall grow. It will eat away at everything within reach, and turn into flame. And flame, boy, cares nothing for what and who it harms. And it consumes EVERYTHING. Until nothing is left behind but ashes and cinders."* -An old soldier, teaching his descendent of the bane of humanity.
This video is basically just Sasuke. It is astounding how many different types of revenge-motivations he cycles through before coming back to team Kakashi.
Pretty much. And now, in Boruto, he's basically, "I need to atone for what I did and make sure none of these kids end up like I did." I had my criticisms of Sasuke as a character in Naruto and Naruto Shippuden, but I have no problem with how he's written in Boruto.
@@NymbusCumulo928 Yes, I watch Boruto. No, I am not "a masochist or something". The show definitely has a number of problems (its protagonist being one of the biggest problems), but it does have a surprising amount of good stuff in it. When I tried it, I found the first arc to be rather meh overall and I almost gave up on it, but then the second arc (which incidentally was all about Sarada and barely had Boruto in it) was a massive improvement and actually quite good, so I kept going. Arcs 3 and 4 went back to being meh, though they were an improvement over the first arc. Then the show adapted the film's storyline, and it was a massive improvement (both over the rest of the show and over the film), and it was the first time I found Boruto to be even remotely compelling as a protagonist. Ever since then, the show has had its weaker moments, and it still has a number of lingering issues (such as that Boruto has gone back to being a passive protagonist with nothing really driving him), but it has actually been rather enjoyable to watch overall. I just wish they'd give Boruto some form of internal motivation and that they'd stop using Konohamaru as a punching bag for each powerful arc villain and actually let him have some victories. I have other gripes with the show, but those are the two big ones right now.
Character A: "You will PAY for the way your father betrayed me all those years ago!" Character C: "Betrayed!?" Character A: "YES!" Character C: "What are you talking about!?" Character A: "Don't you already know!?" Character C: "No! I don't even know who my father is! He has been unavailable my whole life!" Character A: "Well, sucks to be you. I'm still getting revenge on you though."
Surprised you didn’t bring up the real world version of this trope-the Hatfields and the McCoys. I don’t think they remember what started that family feud either, but it killed their family members left and right. There was even a Romeo and Juliet kind of moment between two of true younger members.
@@chriss780 I think the moment you mentioned with the civil war matter i think both families were in the fight with the confederacy till things went wrong in there area of the war and got out of there.
Rings kind of hollow though. While the curse of Hamm was a real life example, I think we can all agree that the sins of the father is an inherently unjust troupe. There is nothing "spicy" about a completely non controversial statement.
This reminds me of that guy that got shunned out of his hometown by friends and the community during ww2 because his last name was the same as Hitler. He had zero relation with Hitler. People will make any excuse to spite another person.
@@TheYoungKing1215 less vengeance for losing, and more vengeance for the supreme assfucking the allies gave Germany afterwards, and the rampant degeneracy that took hold during the Weimar era.
Beau: sometimes justice (vengeance) brings closure Cadeucus: the only thing I find that brings closure is when everyone is finally in the ground -Critical Role- 2x98 This scene always gets me in terms of revenge tropes.
*“You will pay for the sins of your forefathers!”*
“I didn't have four fathers! I just had one father and I didn't know him that well!”
What’s this a quote from?
@@dukeofkings8942 Ernest Scared Stupid.
His ancestor sealed a troll in a tree and got let out by Ernest being an idiot. Shenanigans ensue.
@@dukeofkings8942
A movie that everyone either forgot existed or never heard of: *Ernest Scared Stupid*
A good watch with friends or family during October tho...
What do you call you mom, grandma, great grandma, and great great grandma? Your four bearers.
"I have 1 father and he left to get milk since I was 3 and he never came home."
the “my parent(s) has screw over a lot things and I’m basically the janitor” trope.
Greatest association
Portgas D. Ace in a nutshell.
@@S3rp3nte It's practically his entire character
percy jackson
Oof
Katara: how do i get vengence on those who wronged me?
Aang: the best vengence is letting go and living well
Katara: ...
Katara: Zuko
and then she meets the target of her vengeance and decides the cruelest thing she could do to him is let him live with the guilt of what he had done, with someone who's an absolute crone of a woman.
@@Shadethewolfy I mean, that dude had no guilt at all.
Zuko: I've already got our stuff packed.
*A week Later*
Katara: We're back from our vengeance quest,
Aang: So how did it go?
Katara: Zuko tricked me into letting go and living well.
Zuko: Gets em every time.
Yeah, I felt it was a good arc but yuyuhakusho did it better with Hiei. He was toss off a cliff as a child for being a bastard son and survived but never tried to take revenge on his own, then years later his sister found him and let him know she wanted her village dead for doing that to her brother and he went there fully intending to honor her request, but after hearing his mother killed herself out of guilt and seeing how the entire village was already apathetic and dead inside, he decided to leave them be.
@@Shadethewolfy I would’ve killed him anyway. Especially after he tried to sacrifice his own mother!
This trope is literally:
"You took everything from me.."
"I don't even know who you are!"
Not all the time, but so, so much.
But for me, it was Tuesday
"You are the worst person to curse this planet!"
"Sir i am attempting to babysit an orphan"
I mean in that specific case it was more that the character was talking to someone who hadn't yet had the chance to inflict pain, rather than someone who was actually innocent. Not only was Thanos about as far from innocent as you can get, past Thanos would have done exactly the same thing as future Thanos had done if given the chance. Though there is some relevance to the trope in the fact that a lot of Wanda's grief was self-inflicted from having tried and failed to stop Thanos from killing her lover by killing him herself, and actually getting a chance to believe that she'd succeeded for a few seconds before Thanos walked up and said, yeah I'm gonna resurrect your lover just so I can kill him myself, utterly undoing all of the reasons for the suffering you just went through in the process.
Wanda had less reason to be mad at Thanos than she had to be mad at herself for not only killing her lover, but for failing to make that death meaningful.
nnnno. No its not. Thanos killed Vision, not his grandma.
Red: Another option, blood feuds between families!
Blue: _Sweats in War of the Roses_
Oh hey, it's the Capulets...
Me an American: sweats in Hatfields, and MacCoys
Idk, I feel like that one was less about vengeance than about material gain.
@@kereminde do you bite your thumb at me, sir?
The Barcas and The Scipios in the Punic Wars
I heard a story about a boy who cried when his village was burned down. He spent his entire life training, and building an army to get revenge on the people who did it. When he went to their village and burned it down, however, he saw a boy crying.
LOVE THIS
Found this 9 Hours Ago
I AM THE NINTH LIKE...
HOLY SHIT
Is this a reference to something?
Skull. Face.
There's an interesting instance of this in Kill Bill when The Bride kills the black lady in front of her daughter and says to the little girl "If you're still angry about this when you grow up, I'll be waiting for you". It's like she says "I'm executing my own vengeance, so I can't very well deny you yours against me"
I *love* when a vengeance motivated character anticipates and encourages vengeance against themselves, by the people they hurt in their own pursuit of vengeance.
Wasn't the planned sequel based on that girl growing up???
I only saw that film in passing but i remember that scene so well! Its a right banger
Repeating cycles
@@benjaminmadrigalperez9010 Yes but it wasn't acepted (Don't remember the details) so the movie colombiana was born
So it’s another expansion on;
“Cool motive, Still murder.”
Great quote
HELLO FELLOW BROOKLYN 99 FAN, I HAVE RECOGNIZED THE QUOTE!!
BRO WHAT EPISODE WAS THAT FROM
@@jibrael5705 Season 1, Episode 21
Brooklyn 99,
Forgot what episode,
"My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father, prepare to die." I didn't see any Princess Bride references, so I had to add one.
well that was just a good old revenge story
Inigo is a good example of only taking out his anger on the one who wronged him. Anyone he hurts outside of his singular desire for vengeance on Count Rugan is because he's a sword for hire and NOT because of his justifiable quest for vengeance. His motives in that regard fall heavily on the heroic side, even if he doesn't exactly act like a hero his whole life.
GDI, I love that movie.
@@jmercedesd Inigo's story is probably the single best revenge story ever written. He completes his mission, hurts nobody else, and then immediately moves on to something else (piracy).
One time in fencing I started screaming that and the person I was fencing didn’t get it. Vengeance fueled that- I won.
It's also interesting to note that Inigo doesn't necessarily feel satisfied after killing Count Rugen (Mandy Patinkin, Inigo's actor, says as much in an interview about Inigo's motivations). Inigo makes the Count promise him anything he wants and then says "I want my father back, you son of a bitch." It kind of illustrates Red's point of "how can this be fixed" vs "what will make me feel good." The tragedy comes from the fact that killing the Count doesn't actually give Inigo what he wants nor does it fix the situation that the Count created, but killing the Count doesn't necessarily make Inigo feel GOOD either, it just gives him a way to direct his grief towards a proactive goal. At the end, Inigo realizes that he still hasn't come to terms with his father's death, and while the Count's death will provide some closure, Inigo's father is gone.
"You gotta end the bloodline and prevent any revenge killing; I mean that's just evil 101" Queen of Fables
Vinland saga is an excellent example of why a revenge plan never ends well and just creates a cycle of violence.
@@gamingforever9121 It's mostly an example of how being completely unable to learn from your mistakes and think before you act leads to being unable to achieve your goals.
@@maximsavage it’s also a really good read so is berserk shame the author died though
@@gamingforever9121 Indeed.
@@maximsavage no one has any enemies Thorfinn that was probably my favorite line from Vinland Saga
One of my favourite lines from the DiscWorld series is Death telling his granddaughter that Justice doesn't exist until humans make it so.
"Grind the universe into the finest powder and sieve it through the finest sieve and find me one atom of justice one molecule of mercy."
It's a dope line.
Death gets many wonderful lines. Plus he likes cats.
Justice is one of those things that people love to talk about "finding" as if it grows out of the ground or is hidden in some cave on a mountain. Justice has always been something that you need to make.
Same for identity. I don't think anyone can find who they are written in an ancient scroll or hidden deep in the jungle. It's a choice you make.
@@zoro115-s6b Identity is easier to choose if you research before you make a decision though. That's mainly why intelectuals like to promote education, I think.
@@VashdaCrash That doesn't deliver answers about what you should do with your life though, it just informs you of options.
IDK, I just feel as though far too many people, including me for a while, try to get a star or destiny or a personality test to tell them who they are and how they should act, or to find some amazing natural gift they have that they can base their identity around, rather than taking charge of their own life and deciding for themselves what kind of person they want to be and how they can get there.
@@zoro115-s6b It happens to most of us, realizing that you have to take matters on your own hands when it comes to yourself looks like a given but it's not so much, right? :)
It's always nice to remember that MLK Jr. was a pastor and could also cite theological explanations *specifically* to fuck with the people who were trying to pull "God said it's okay" on him.
True, that's what I really like about his old speeches, some random pastor would come from across to country to debate with him and MLK would absolutely destroy them with the calmest tone possible
How come when i do this on modern topics it doesn't work:( (i know why, it's really complicated but the idea is generally summarized in a video i can link if anyone wants to know)
@@Rowlesisgay My best guess in as short a time as possible: People are not always arguing what they are saying.
Some people are arguing because they believe _going through the motions of this argument_ makes them a better person;
some are arguing because their concept of your argument is entirely _different_ from what you are trying to explain;
and some are arguing because _the only thing they know how to do_ is say their half of the argument, and they feel scared by the future but don't know what to do about it other than yell about this issue.
People are not inherently rational creatures. It takes time and practice to argue perfectly rationally, and most people do not do that. The calm, measured response MLK used works mostly on _bystanders;_ it is most effective when there is a large audience, who are not already predisposed to hate you.
If you're trying to persuade an individual, you're gonna have to understand that individual. _Why_ are they arguing this? What are they implying? They're implying _something,_ because people suck at explaining themselves, so what is the unstated belief in their argument? Do they even _have_ an unstated belief, or are they arguing this because they believe it is core to their identity to argue this? If it's about their identity, you're kinda fucked, I haven't figured out how to fix that.
@@Rowlesisgay Ok, I'll bite. What's the link?
Still, the whole concept of original sin is a sins of the father setup. We're guilty by default, due to Adam and Eve's sin.
"vengeance frames itself as justice but will be satisfied with the illusion of justice" - YES
Except its pretty much the same thing.
@@imperatordrakon6488 no it's not. Justice means proportionate retribution to the person deserving it. Revenge means the person who wants it wants to hurt anyone they could possibly blame in a manner that will satisfy them without necessarily bring proportionate.
It's like condemning a robber's daughter to prison because she arguably benefitted from it, yeah, sure she probably did, but it wasn't her decision to commit a crime, even if the robbed person will feel satisfied. It's why vigilantes can make really shitty decisions based on how they feel about the accused, because of unconscious bias for instance that's gonna lead them to enforce a disproportionate punishment
@@willmako5009 Justice often is vengeange, it just is proprotional (as decided by whoever is making the distinction) and aimed at the actual culprit (again, as determined by the person making the distinction).
While i don't disagree with much of the things said in the video, it does not really go in depth to the subject that is lot more complicated than just selfish/not selfish or justified/not justified.
@@nyysjan That's not really correct. Restorative justice has no personal culprit (since they are already dead most of the time), but it has plenty of victim(s). Vengeance is simply one branch of justice, the retributive branch. But justice can be about rehabilitation, defending the innocent from wrong accusations and so on, most of the time all at once. Revenge plots usually only use two aspects: retribution and preventative (it must not happen again), which misses the healing aspect of justice entirely.
@@Elkator955 I'm not sure anything you say actually disagrees with me.
Justice can be many things depending on context and situation.
But my point is that trying to make a clean cut between revenge and justice does not work, because one can also be the other in many cases.
Revenge plots tend to be more clear cut, because it is easy for writer to just make people making revenge clearly go too far and so neatly avoid any difficult discussions about morality if they do not want to delve into it.
Except in cases where the author is fully onboard with the revenge, whilestill going way too far, but protagonist centered morality is a different trope entirely.
This is on the same grid as the "You Killed My Father Prepare to Die" trope. This is in the "Your Father Killed My Father, prepare to die" corner. Now we gotta fill out the other two corners.
"I killed your father, prepare to die"?
The other two corners are "I killed your father, I'll kill myself" and below that, "My father killed your father, I'll kill myself" - the latter of which is also featured in this video.
@@tparadox88 "had to end the bloodline. Sorry mate." Which is basically Dio, now that I think about it.
@@YataTheFifteenth Man it's always Dio.
@@trishapellis dont forget I killed mu father prepare to die and I killed my father so Ill kill myself
"The day I visited your village and raised it to the ground was the most important day of your life and started you on a revenge quest.
But for me, it was a Tuesday."
Razed, not raised. It’s funny how they sound the same when they kinda mean opposite things!
@@emblemblade9245 yep and them sounding the same is why speech to text messed it up. Le sigh. And I need to read them before I hit post and stop trusting it to just be right.
@@randallcraft4071 I think that's one of the good things that we, non native speakers have, we never trust what we writte and pass it to google translator first just to be sure
@@juliuscaesar6660 the misspelling was googles doing, I need to learn to not trust Google haha
@@randallcraft4071 That's something else we got to learn over time
Red, you talked about a vengeance plot harming an innocent child by killing their parent, perpetuating the cycle of harm and vengeance, without referencing the best example of this: Kill Bill!
The Bride- a former assassin who was betrayed by her fellow assassins on her wedding night, losing her groom, her child, and several years of her life- goes on a revenge streak against the rest of the Deadly Viper Assassination Squad. The first of the other assassins we see on screen has, in the intervening years, also married and had a daughter, and is content to live quietly in the suburbs.
This does little to stop the Bride from killing the mother, ultimately right in front of the four-year-old little girl.
Rather than make excuses, or try to apologize or set things right, the Bride simply tells the little girl that, when she's grown up and if she wants to get even, the Bride will be waiting for her.
The cycle continues.
And that's what I like about the Kill Bill movies.
It's likely that upon seeing her second target having settled down and having a kid of her own, the very thing that Beatrix Kiddo wanted to have but was violently ripped away from her, that sent her spiraling into hatred.
Another example of Sins of the Father is from Red Dead Redemption. After getting the last member of John Marston's old gang in custody, things start returning to normal for him. But that corrupt U.S. Marshal stab him in the back, by laying siege to his family farm and kills him while his wife and son escape.
Years pass and his son tracks his Father's killer by gathering info on him from his own family, which the game does give you the option to perform collateral here. The kicker is the line that his sister gives to you, "He just wants to live a quiet life now."
Which is exactly what John Marston was promised after doing the dirt government official's job for him.
Quentin should make kill bill 3 with that plot
it wouldve been smarter for her to kill the kid too
Kind of like what Caine said in John Wick 4.
And The Bride also ends the movies by getting a daughter.
Red: "This is the exact plot of six whole Greek tragedies."
Me: "Only six? Huh..."
That we know of...
@@elizabethshaw7472 lol, point...
Which Greek tradegies?
@@voidpickle5684 Well, just off the top of my head: pretty much anything involving Oedipus, his parents, or his children with his mom (eww); anything about the Trojan War; pretty much anything involving Agamemnon, his wife, and their children. And that's before you get into the gods being petty at people they don't like for various reasons (Heracles and so many others being punished for no other reason than being sons of Zeus as an example), and they're not above starting wars and feuds just to see whose side is better. The Trojan war, for example, was the Greeks blaming all Trojans for Paris absconding with Helen, but that only happened at all because some goddesses got in a bitching match over a golden apple, which only happened because Eris was butthurt about not being invited to a wedding.
Escalating cycle of revenge has its footprints all over most of Greek literature and mythology, and therefore Greek theater as well.
Literally every myth where Hera goes after Zeuss kids
“Child of my enemy, why have you come? I offer no forgiveness... a father's sins, passed to his son.” This is my favorite quote related to this trope.
Ah yes, the gravemind. The bag of flesh that says something cool and poetic literally everytime he speaks
"Why do you always speak in poem? Kinda pretentious."
"Cause it's fun."
I appreciate the Gravemind as the most honest being in fiction.
I'm still mad that they retconned the "the Forerunners were actually humans" twist :c I thought it was really cool -- and it made a lot of sense in that universe, too!
I don’t get the quotes. Did he passed the sins of the father to his son or is it that the son has no reason to come.
@@user-vs3gc4cn3t
I'm not 100% sure what you're asking, to be honest, but the line is the Gravemind from Halo. He's all but confirming that the Forerunners (his ancient enemies) were humans, and announcing his intention to carry that grudge over to Master Chief (and probably humanity in general).
Hope that answers your question! :D
Can we talk about how this also happened in atla? Both Jet and Hama had reasons to hate the fire nation, like the gang, but they chose to harm innocent fire nation civilians. And the gang knows that this is bad despite their own personal grudges and those two characters become the villains of their episodes. Man this show is great.
And then there was that one episode where two clans fought with each other over something so long ago neither of them know the full story.
"REDEMPTION!!!"
I watched a fantastic video about it!!!!
@@pinkajou656 link please
And both Aang and Katara break the cycle of revenge, with Aang losing his entire culture and people and Katara losing her mother.
"Ok everyone, what did we learn today?"
"Kill the bloodline..."
"Kill the F***king bloodline!"
And, 9 times out of 10, you'll miss or overlook someone who will be back after a few years sporting a massive revenge boner.
And the allies of that bloodline, and the allies of the allies, and so on until you are the only one left...
Basically: end earth while chilling on mars being only human alive
Heh, so basically the villains who do this sort of thing have a point.
In the words of Leela, "Can't leave orphans! Gotta kill entire families!"
Now THIS is the "vengence is bad" trope I actually like. No weird "killing only that one specific person makes you exactly as bad as that same specific person who committed genocide" funky morals
To quote the IDW Transformers comics on that concept:
"Ratchet: No. If we kill him, we're no better than him. If we kill him, he wins.
First Aid: Yeah, except we are better than him and he doesn't win. He doesn't anything. He's dead. That's the point."
Basically "Should Batman kill the Joker?"
@@Hulkzilla0 I mean, not exactly, the point of Batman's no killing rule isn't that the Joker shouldn't be killed, it's that, as a Vigilante, Batman doesn't have the right to make that decision.
Feels kinda petty
@@zoro115-s6b And the counter argument is that every time he lets the Joker live, countless people are slaughtered in Joker's following crimes.
I'm not saying that Batman should kill, or that he should cross that very specific line, but should a rule never be broken? Even if breaking that rule, just that once, will save hundreds down the road?
I think this trope is actually the reason for "eye for an eye." What most people forget about it, is that it is a set of laws. Hamurabi was setting the *upper limits* of acceptable vengeance, not the lower ones as people seem to use it as today. It's purpose is to *prevent* blood feuds. If damage has been done, you can do this much in retaliation and no more. The fact that it's misrepresented probably tells about how hard that was to enforce, but it is good to remember.
Yes, and speaking of which wasn't initial statement of god about bloodline responsibility applicable to primal sin? (though I could misremember things ere) This case is special, because primal sin isn't wrongdoing in regular way, but a natural state of the humanity. Yes, we suffer because of that. But without it we wouldn't even know that, as it is literally mater of possessing or not of the soul. Which is a sin, so in this sense we inherit the sin... our humanity from our parents.
@@TheRezro original sin was invented by Saint Augustine, who hated himself and made up original sin as a way of excusing his past transgressions as part of his nature as a human being.
@@scotcheggable He popularized the idea, but it is also present in the bible. So no, he did not invented it. Though the open debate is if it is transgression or the responsibility given to us with right to be here. That apparently is core debate between Satan and the God, with most prominent example in story of the Job.
@@TheRezro I was brought up in a family where the concept of “generational curses” came up a lot. The way that my mother and grandmother described them to us was one part biblical curse/original sin, one part how someone is raised, and one part genetics. So for example, addictions would be seen as a generational curse as they are passed down through a family by way of both socialization (addict parents raising kids who become addicts themselves) and the way addiction changed genetics and makes children of addicts more susceptible to addiction themselves.
@@thelittleredhairedgirlfrom6527 You bring interesting truth about this subject.
You know Kratos might actually be the only example of this that I can think of whose pulled just about every angle on this. He got angry and took revenge on pretty much everyone in range even after he ran out of people to target directly then eventually learned to break the cycle and let go of his anger.
Yeah.. cause he ran out of target's :D
@@ItsAweeb .. *not any more*
Yeah but didn't he literally kill every single being to the point the world was reborn with Norse mythology afterwards
@@Captianmex1C0 No, in that world the different regions have different pantheons from the start, but he did basically destroy Greece. As for what's happening in the upcoming game, Ragnarök was caused by Atreyu(Loki) killing Balder.
Kratos sometimes be a whole mood tho... 👉👈
There's another angle to the biblical 'sins of the father' deal; that it's not an instruction to punish children for their parents crimes, but a prediction of how your failings affect your children. For example, Jacob's mother favors him over his brother Esau and helps Jacob to Esau's detriment, so when Jacob has kids, he also picks a favorite, Joseph, treats him differently than his brothers, who are so upset that they sell him into slavery. The first parent does something bad, and their children copy them, and eventually it turns to evil. So, less vengeful god and more cycle of abuse.
Or how all Humanity is punished for what Adam did?
@@hunterv9983 Do you think you could do better?
@@chuggedchugga6844
As in "Better First Man" or "Better God"?
@@hunterv9983 the former, better first man
@@chuggedchugga6844
Adam and Eve ate from the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. They were told by God not to eat the fruit. They didn't *know* why they shouldn't, only that God said "No". One can't make a good decision without knowing *why* it's a negative decision.
Can't wait for Trope Talk: Words That Kill.
As in Power Word Kill or a pointed takedown of another person
And its sequel: “WOOO-HOAHHHHHHHH”
Won’t you speak them to me?
Same
With your breath so still
My favorite example(s) of this is for sure Teen Titans as Raven often has to deal with this and it shows that having to deal with the sins of her literal demon lord dad has caused her to feel that sometimes she is no better than him. It really shows the emotional toll on the person receiving the basically underserved punishments.
"You may have created me,
But you were *never* my father."
My main character deals with undeserved punishment and hatred too as well as his own faults. On top of having autism, his mental health is extremely weak...
It is only a great example of moving past it.
Even though she is literally the daughter of the devil and was used as a weapon to destroy her old world...no one blames her.
Despite everything the people that loved her in her old world still loved her despite how she was used against them. They didn't want vengence against her nor did they blame her and the same happened for the teen titans.
They saw what happened "thanks" to her but rather than regretting being her friend or feeling vengence they simply wanted to help her fight her own curse.
@@bibbobella Raven is unique in that she is both the embodiment of "born unlucky" (she was specifically made as a tool for Trigon) and "I know this is bad, but I must do it."
The latter could be portrayed as villainous, but then the former comes in:
She is the product of rape, she does evil and despises herself for it, she desires freedom but knows she is connected to her literal demon of a father.
@@colt9836 Well in the comics she pretty frequently loses herself to rage, and becomes a monster without any sort of cause. Thankfully her friends tend to do the old "I know you're in there somewhere fight", but it doesn't really change that she's done some bad stuff just because she wanted to. Trigon is responsible for some of that, but ultimately Raven isn't perfect.
I personally like hearing real-world examples of tropes, I like understanding WHY it’s important to tell stories like this.
Learning from your mistakes is good. Learning from other peoples' mistake is better because we can't have every single person fucking up just so they can have their cathartic lesson. Learning from fictional peoples' mistakes is even better than that because we shouldn't need the fuck up to actually happen in the first place to know that we shouldn't have done that.
And yet no one ever actually gets the message of the revenge stories. Which happens a lot, like with robot uprising stories. A lot of people will blame the robots for turning evil rather than blaming the humans for mistreating them
@@landoakechi9406 I always blame the humans for not having an "off" switch. Also, for creating machines with emotions and treating them like slaves, which is weird...
@@Jake007123 Or creating perfect machines that can self sustain, replicate, and have almost no weak spots, and then fail to disable them when they eventually go rogue.
@@Jake007123 true, why give a toaster a sense of pain, morality and ability to think, all I want it to do is burn bread, no need to create literal mechanical slaves...
As someone who’s been dealing with heavy trauma, the moment I stopped wishing for some kind of justice and started just actively working to heal is a transformative one.
Are not wishing for Justice and ignoring injustice the same thing? Legit question
It’s true. When we insist on our anger we only hurt ourselves. Letting go isn’t letting them get away with it, it’s letting ourselves move on.
@@Peecamarke not necessarily, if no injustice is being done and you don't wish for justice you aren't ignoring injustice
@@airplanes_aren.t_realIf injustice is being done and you're not wishing for justice aren't you just accepting injustice?
@@Peecamarke seeking justice and seeking revenge and very different things that lead to very different outcomes, for a really REALLY good study of this see GoW Ragnarok
The best revenge is to be unlike him who performed the injury.
- Marcus Aurelius, Emperor, Philospher, Chad
Ohhh that's a good one. I will remember this.
the most shocking part about this he was able to do this while being constantly sick and not sick like I have a flu sick like bedridden for days
on the other hand, crucifing them isn't bad either
-Julis Caesar, Empereor, Chadest, do I have to keep going?
Based and SOLUS-pilled
Man u better not beat me when i bitch slap u
Person A: YOU SHALL PAY THE SINS OF YOUR FATHER
Person B: My dad left me & hasn't paid child support for nearly 2 decades.
Person A: Oh...
Person A: You want to help me get revenge on him?
@@Sorain1 Person B: Sure
@@raylongoria3565 sins of the father, but it's exclusively focused on the avenger and the proxy seeking the guilty party
Snape: YOU'LL PAY FOR THE SINS OF YOUR FATHER!
Harry: My father's dead and I've been abused by my relatives for the entirety of my life. In a place I thought was safe, I've been relentlessly hunted, bullied, and near death more than a couple times.
No thanks to you.
Snape: ...
@@raylongoria3565 And then they kissed.
One of the best revenge stories that actually briefly touches on the Sins of the Father is Kill Bill. After finishing off one of the people that tried to kill her, the titular character tells the child of the person that she just killed that if they want to, at some point in the future they could come after her and she wouldn't judge them for it.
Copperhead's daughter
It's certainly interesting. "I acknowledge the cycle of violence and I have absolutely no intention of breaking it. Tough luck."
"If you still feel raw about it, I'll be waiting." Read some really good fanfiction about Nikkia getting her revenge and it spiraling out of control..
Now I'm thinking of "A Boy Named Sue"
I prefer when the revenge stories actually either recognizce their hypocresy or decide to commit to the whole cycle of revenge and not just go for the kinda cliche "I have already killed a lot of people already, so I will just stop myself from achieving my revenge just when i have already debatably done way worse"
Either you commit fully to it, or never try to go through it in first place.
"You want vengeance? Go out and find the man who did it, but I won't stand here and watch you kill thousands of innocents."
"There are no innocents! Not anymore. Anyone one of them could have stood up and said 'We won't behave like animals anymore!'"
-Castlevania, an amazing Netflix show
I was wondering if anyone would bring up Castlevania. Because in a way, Dracula and Alucard both are connected to “sins of the fathers” arcs. Dracula punished all of humanity for killing his wife, while Alucard suffered solely because he was Dracula’s son and part vampire
15:22 this is the belief of Dracula and also why he's wrong. Obviously punishing the entire race for something a single person did is wrong, even if sometimes having the impulse to do so because of an event is relatable.
@@-Extra_Lives also the mass of people were mostly innocent and also victems. They didn't speak up because if they did they were next on the chopping block.
Though that jealous bitch who ratted needded to be gutted.
She was selling FOOT GUNK POWDER!
EW!
She probally killed more than one person with her crappy "treatments"
EW!
(A note to all bots I'm talking about a 100% fictional character)
Dracula makes a good poimt though where he is right, all those people just stood by and chanted or watched as the priest did his thing. Even after Dracula *personaly* comes to warn them, they don't speak up, get rid of the priest, etc..
At that point, they became the bad guys since they just stood by as evil happened and did nothing. I'm reminded handily of that quote "the only thing that will stop an bad guy with a gun, is a good guy with a gun".
@@anelbegic2780 Yeah like, honestly that's kinda the issue with trying to go "one person is responsible for the bad things they did and everyone around them is 100% blameless and innocent". The only reason to hold that worldview is because you can think of examples where you'd be held responsible and you don't want others to hold you responsible. Any time you could have done something to stop it, you hold guilt for enabling it if you don't. Just because that makes people feel bad about some times they failed to do the right thing doesn't make it less true.
I'm shocked that the Netflix Castlevania anime wasn't brought up here. Vengeance is the primary motivation of nearly every single character in that show, and each has a different model and circumstance. Notably, Dracula tries to wipe out the human race because a bishop killed his wife for witchcraft, which is a perfect example of villainous revenge.
Isaac has the best arc in the show because of it imo
@@chanceofbliss8175 ikr! It was really cool to watch, probably my favorite part of the show.
@@peggedyourdad9560 agreed, top tier development
@@chanceofbliss8175 i can't wait to watch season 4. During season 3 I was always like : "I dont care about belmont and family, what happens to isaac". I loved him becoming a character on his own
If you liked that terrible hot mess, you should really play the games, or at least watch walkthroughs on RUclips - much better exploration of vengeance vs justice since all of the different characters who have a motivation are usually pitted against a foil with a different revenge plot (Lament of Innocence and Curse of Darkness are especially explicit and the reason I’m still salty and will die mad about Netflix buying the rights and ruining any chance we might have to getting a better adaptation, but Portrait of Ruin, Symphony of the Night and the Sorrow Chronicles even dip into some of this subtext). Seriously - check the source material and join me in my love for the good stuff and hatred of the awful show.
I really like how Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood handles this with Scar, who both becomes the person seeking vengance for the sins of others, and becomes the target of vengeance for his own sins, and how this forces his arc to change, espcially after meeting Major Miles.
I wanted to make a comment about Scar, but I chose to scroll and find one to like instead. You put it better than I could have. 😂
i was partly expecting fma mentions in this video
The 2003 version was even better.
The Brotherhood version pretty much get's a free pass for his actions in the end while the 03 version takes them straight to the end.
@@matteste Not sure what you mean by that. The 2003 version didn't handle it well at all. 😕
@@matteste The Brotherhood version doesn't get a "free pass"; he learns to put aside his wrath to focus on rebuilding, helps the heroes save the world from the ones who orchestrated the Ishval massacre, and fights Wrath and is nearly killed in the process. After that, he is presumed dead and is able to focus on rebuilding. And if you think he needed at least a trial or something, then you can consider the scene in season 4 where he's captured by the Briggs troops to be his trial.
Inigo Montoya: "You know, It's very strange. I have been in the revenge business for so long, that now that it's over, I don't know what to do with the rest of my life."
"...Have you ever considered piracy? I think you'd make a wonderful Dread Pirate Roberts!"
@@michaelbryant3640 do you mean...
A SEQUEL!!!!
@Anime/Rock&Metalfan I know
I'm pretty sure that Spinel is unique among the individuals who follow the sins of the father trope on Steven Universe, since I'm pretty sure she's the only one who actually recognizes Steven as being a different person. Jasper, the Diamonds, they- like most gems- didn't understand that Steven was a different being entirely
But then why did she try to destroy earth? Was it because she was jealous pink liked earth more than spinel?
@@airplanes_aren.t_real pretty much yeah. She just wanted to hurt someone the way she was hurt
@@airplanes_aren.t_real she said it herself in the movie she just wanted to hurt someone so they'll know the same pain she went though
Pink was a terrible person, she didn't even come back for Spinel even after the war was over. Abandoning Spinel was when her character wasn't developed yet was already bad, but not coming back for her is unforgivable and also makes Pink a giant hypocrite
@pancakesstudios6351 Not sure leaving earth after the war was an option
Vengeance is like a grenade. When you throw it at somebody, you have to be okay with anyone and everyone near that person getting hurt. Also if you don't do it properly, It will blow up in your face.
Excellent analogy; I especially like it because you can infer that, just like a grenade, there exists a context in which it's the right option. You just need to make damn sure you correctly identify that context.
@@maximsavage In my opinion, there is never a context in which killing/throwing a grenade is the right option, because killing or hurting someone, is never a good or right option. Just because someone did something bad, doesn't mean it is right to do something bad to said person .
@@stianasmus3292 I think killing is only the right option, when it is directly done to stop the person from directly killing another person and only when there is no other option stopping them
@@stianasmus3292 isn't this just the trolley problem ? like if you can justify throwing a grenade if not throwing leads to more people getting hurt
@@stianasmus3292 Unfortunately, this is real life where there ARE people who WILL wish to do you and your loved ones harm. Hopefully you don't run into many, but if you do, protecting yourself and your loved ones is the priority and is justified. There's a reason self defense classes teach and use violence... because there comes a time in life where violence IS the justified and necessary answer.
There are instances using whatever weapon is nearby to kill is 100% justified and necessary. Is it 100% of the time? Nope, which is why I loathe it when young kids who are mentally undeveloped enough to understand the nuance of war/ violence making light of extremely violent films and games. It is not okay nor should it be commonplace to be violent towards each other; glorifying violence is not okay. But when it comes to protecting people, you need to be able and willing to match and defeat your adversary. Out thinking can win time, but without force (sometimes including grenades) those smarts aren't enough.
I sincerely hope you live a privileged enough life to not experience implementing violence, let alone the fear and healing needed for all parties involved. Even if you do it's better to be prepared. Even the kindest animals have teeth.
It's funny how she talks about 'Only the villains really do that kind of undirected revenge and hurting everyone even tangentially related to the baddie' and I immediately think of the protagonist of every Chinese revenge novel or comic ever.
Power fantasy is practically its own bubble of tropes. Things normally mostly reserved for villains become "heroic" motivations for the protagonist, even if they're often disgusting from an audience perspective. Redo of Healer is a pretty egregious example of this.
It's weirdly popular for completely out-of-proportion, villainous revenge to be painted as a good thing. Pretty frequently associated with "suffering porn" stories where morality has completely flown out the window in favor of grimdark. Even if the protagonist's revenge is justified, their methods, no matter how dour, are painted as something the audience should be revelling in. This falls flat on its face when it's taken to a fetishistic degree where sympathizing with the protagonist becomes impossible.
The protagonist of a story isn't always a hero.
Well, most Chinese media that's intended for the Chinese public is designed to legitimize the methods of the CCP so that no one tries to contradict them from a moral standpoint. At least, that's how it appears to be given how all Chinese media I've ever seen has the "good guys" committing horrific acts and shitting all over the concept of ethics.
@@CodeRed99911 There's a strong case to be made for a well-written antihero, or hell, a straight up villain protagonist. Just as such, an antagonist doesn't need to be a villain.
That's why I create a boundary between "focal character" and "moral actions." If the focal character is committing immoral actions, but the author desperately wants you to see them as moral ie a "hero," or at the very least totally justified no matter how extreme and out-of-hand it gets, there's a noticeable disconnect.
There's good power fantasy and bad power fantasy. Bad power fantasy has all of the edge of a middle schooler's worldview with less nuance than the average porno story.
@@maximsavage Chinese Web Novels don't count as "all" chinese media, Jesus Christ, you are delusional, dictatorship never endorses their atrocities, they deny them, web novel authors are just assholes (though not all of them, Release That Witch, for example), plain and simple.
Absolutely love the imagery of "they might already have some complexes about that" with Steven Universe playing in the background.
That's like the plot of SU
I remember reading a story where a young man meets a knight who his father wronged, after a while of talking it turns out the knight didn't come for revenge but rather to make sure the young man wouldn't cause anyone pain like his father. In the end character A decided to simply make sure no suffering of others would be caused by character C because they were related to character B who is now dead.
Name pls?
The fact that this is a recurrent problem in real life is pretty telling of how easy it is to fall into this line of thought and escalate things to the point that they become all out wars
"Oi! A guy from YOUR country killed our arch-duke!"
"Oi! You cant bully bosnia, we're friends!"
"Oi! You cant bully austria, we're friends!"
"Oi! You cant bully belgium, we're friends!"
@@bloodyhell8201 Ah, good old WW1.
the pain
"Child of my enemy, why have you come? I offer no forgiveness, a father's sins, passed to his son."
Do not be afraid. I am peace; I am salvation.
Where that come from?
@@pedrorosa3300 Halo, it's something the Gravemind says.
@@oracle8535 Bungie really likes Salvation, don't they?
There is much talk... and I have listened. Through rock and metal and time.
"Granny Flash always said that the problem with 'an eye for an eye' is that in the end, everyone ends up blind."
Good show
"No they don't! One guy will have one eye left and can just hide behind a bush or something! Man, Ghandi was wrong!" - Billy Bickle, Seven Psychopaths
Paraphrasing here, been a while since I saw that film. The detail about hiding behind a bush always gave me a chuckle.
"Not Everyone. Just the bad guys." - Michael Garibaldi
Was gonna post this but you were too fast for me. Damn speedforce
Yeah, but only if some idiot starts it.
Dio, this is basically Dio's grudge with the Joestar family.
Literally almost everything that happens up until Part 6 was either directly or indirectly caused by him
You mean including part 6 because Dio's followers are perpetually butthurt that Dio was beaten by Jotaro and go after his daughter for it
@@Roygasm You're right, might have worded that wrong
@@DXUnlimitedGamer yea it's part 7 where Dio's influence finally goes away and that's only because its set in a universe where Dio is a dinosaur
@@no-lifenoah7861 and even then Dio was an antagonist
@@no-lifenoah7861 I’ve never watched JoJo and this sentence both hilarious and utterly stupid.
Red: *starts talking about morality of vengeance and anger*
Every human villain in a Marvel movie: And I took that as a personal attack
Execs at Disney: "Ok, now go go do something undeniably evil because we can't think of a good reason for the heroes to oppose you. We can't just have the audience supporting you completely, that might threaten the status quo that we benefit from too much!"
*cough* Karly deserved better *cough*
And what's funny is that's them TRYING to make justification for human characters. Live Action Bullseye for instance, while not a revenge plot, is made to feel way more sympathetic then his comic counter part is was a born phycopath who cares for no one.
And I can guarantee you live action Taskmaster is prob not gonna have ANY of the same motivation as his comic counter part.
@@andreuva4782 comic Taskmaster is kind of tragic. He loses his memories whenever he learns new abilities, doesn't remember he was a S.H.I.E.L.D agent or that he is still married and has a child. All Tony Masters wants is to learn new things regardless of how he does it
@@troyjardine5850 Karli is actually a very interesting example here because Sam does wholeheartedly agree with her cause. Karli's malicious actions are framed as her personal failings, not the Flag Smashers', meaning they could come back in some new form.
@@OverlyPositiveFanboy That was my take on it. Karli was the problem, because she wasn't upholding any ideals or holding to any kind of ethics, she was just fighting to win. I was sympathetic to the cause, but not the character. She dismissed the lives of anyone getting in her way too easily.
Steven, the literal walking example of: "my mother did bad things and I'm paying for it."
Sadly it works in regards to him because the very thing that makes up is mom is imbedded in his stomach.
Honestly poor guy
With the "You look like someone who wronged me" trope, it seems like there's often an opposite trope as well, where the villian thinks one of the heroes (usually a woman) looks like a loved one so they don't exact vengance on them. The 90s Dracula, Soultaker (that terrible Joe Estevez MST3K movie), the list goes on
Black Clover did a clever subversion of the trope: there's a villain who is out to avenge their fallen tribe, and, when up against one of the heroes, they say that they couldn't bring themselves to hurt the hero, while the audience is shown an image of the person that the villain is thinking of, leading the audience to think that it's this trope. However, a strong hint at his actual reason comes when the villain says, "You'll understand, soon enough..." Spoilers ahead:
The villain's plan is to revive their fallen tribe by putting their preserved souls in host bodies and having the souls take over the hosts, and said hero is one such host; that's the reason the villain couldn't hurt that hero.
Caster from Fate/Zero who doesn't fight saber because she looks like Jeanne d'Arc
I immediately thought of LEGO Ninjago Season 6 when she brought that up.... don't judge me!
Straight up the entire premise of the D&D campaign "Curse of Strahd"
....
....
*("WHY DID YOU SAY THAT NAME?!")*
Someone once said, "The best revenge is a life well spent". I absolutely agree
Reminds me of that post from the satan account on Twitter that said "don't kill your enemies, outlive them"
@@airplanes_aren.t_real apparently Satan can dispense good life advice
I think there is a Chinese Proverb that says "When you live by the river, someday you will see the corpse of your enemy float by."
Clearly written by someone who has never been hurt...
Yeah, built on the grave of your enemies.
Hera vs Children of Zeus
Can''t hurt Zeus, can hurt them... He's not absent - just too powerful/important.
Heracles intensifies
Zeus simply turned Hera into a Dirtbag entirely via the R word.
Hera knew Zeus would cheat on her. She didn't even want to be with Zeus she was kind of made to because Greek myth be strange and Hera is the goddess of marriage.
@@paleopotato736 True. Don'r think it made her more kindly disposed toward Zeus - or his children. Should have made her feel more for the rape victims abd innocent children - but like red said, it's more about rage than justice.
@@cracedkr5196 It doesn't justify her actions just explain them
You say the lookalike version is refreshingly fictional, but when I was in high school I got sucker punched by someone from a different school and broke my nose because they mistook me for someone else they actually had beef with. They were at least nice enough to go "sorry mate, I thought you were someone else" when they realised the person currently bleeding on the floor in front of them had no idea what was going on
My condolences. I've had stuff like that happen more than once, but the worst case was at work one time. I got called into the office about a customer complaint and had no idea what my boss was talking about but apparently I complained about a customer and he overheard it even if it wasn't directed at him. Nothing came of it, just a warning. Then a week or so later this guy came through my line and started yelling how I should be ashamed of myself and why he did the thing he did that was complained about and his wife was looking embarrassed and nudging him as she said "Honey, I don't think that's the same girl." And suddenly everything made sense to me he was angry at one of my coworkers who just happened to have similar skin and hair color as me.
I'll admit I got mad every time I saw him after that because even if he wasn't angry in later trips (I can only assume his wife brought it to his attention after they left he made a mistake) but he never corrected my boss to my knowledge and all I could think when seeing him was how I didn't want to speak with him, he could have cost me my job.
@Tin Watchman nothing much, once I'd recovered from the shock enough to walk I went to the nurse's office and she gave me an ice pack to put on it
wow
@@QuantumJump451 I hope your nose is fine.
@@Samm815 thank you! Yes, it healed fine :)
They say “he who seeks revenge remember to dig two holes” for a reason. It’s a ultimately self-destructive objective, and will just leave you cold and empty on the inside. It’s why I love revenge stories, it’s not just about making someone pay, usually it’s about growing and learning a lesson, though usually too late.
I remember that line from “Jigoku Shoujo” it’s an anime about the “Victim of the Week” (sometimes innocent sometimes shady) going to “Hell Website” to enact their vengeance on their respective targets wether they deserve it or not, it gets greyer as the show goes on
@@cibo889
Yup that’s true in the long term
Hard to disagree with quote in some contexts tho
I like the ones where they revel in the vengeance.
It's kind of funny, because taking revenge always gives me a sense of vindictive pleasure
2:17 a good example is professor Snape to Harry. Snape cannot unleash his anger upon James because he is dead, so the next best thing is Harry, who looks near identical to James.
Exactly,
Or we could let that series and its creator lose all cultural relevance?
As bad as it is that Snape transferred his feelings for James onto Harry, still better than him transferring his feelings for LILY onto Harry ;)
Whenever I hear the word “vengeance” I immediately think of full metal alchemist brotherhood. You know what I’m talking about
There's more than one character this can be applied to in that version, actually.
Personally, I'll like the one done by Travis.
Who's Travis?
@@alexgrim5165 roy mustang
Actually kinda funny that the major plot of FMA brotherhood is sins of the father in a very literal way just with a little less vengeance in the traditional form of this trope.
Honestly my favorite take on a vengeance story. That scene where Winry confronts Scar is one of my favorites in a series of fantastic moments
This actually reminds me of Snape's relationship with Harry in Harry Potter. The only reason Snape doesn't like harry is because he's James' son and looks exactly like him. And for this crime that Harry literally can't help, Snape treats him like garbage. While Snape is justified in not liking James and is under no obligation to forgive the person that made his life hell for like, 7 years, directing that anger at Harry is completely unjustified and uncalled for.
Let's not forget that Snape by no means restricts his torment to Harry. Consider that Neville, a kid who had both his parents tortured to the point of insanity, had Snape as his greatest fear. Snape managed to be THAT shitty to his students. The dude was an all-around scumbag to an utterly unjustifiable degree.
He was quite a complex character. He hated Harry's father but loved his mother. He tried his best to protect him while also despising his out of spite for his old enemy.
@@zoro115-s6b or, and I haven't read the books in a long time, Neville is just easily scared of authority figures with exceedingly high expectations? Snape if I remember correctly was shown to be excessively strict towards griffindors, so naturally Neville, who constantly makes mistakes, would be terrified of the strict, cold faced professor who doesn't sugar coat his words and who he sees almost every single day of the year
@@iiiivvvv9986 Snape literally tried to poison Trevor- Neville's toad. If Hermione hadn't cheated to help Neville fix his potion... well, I think there's plenty of direct torment in that one instance alone. There are plenty more, though.
Neville is scared of people who hold power over him, but it's not of specific people usually. Snape, though? Yeesh.
If Snape wanted to be good, he would’ve took an anti-bullying stance
I clicked on this video expecting fun rundowns and analyses of a couple shows and got deep reflections on the morality of vengeance, the cause of wars and crimes against humanity, responsibility and much more.
Man, I love this channel
Katara overcoming the urge to kill the man who killed her mother is just... Amazing. All this talk of vengeance just made me think of that. It's really the best moment in Avatar.
I really love that she still didn't forgive him. She just let go of her desire to kill him, realizing it wouldn't bring her mother back. It wouldn't undo her pain, but it allowed her to forgive Zuko. Who was truly sorry and truly trying to be better.
It probably helped that the guy already lived a pretty pathetic and joyless life.
Red: Which flavor of Sins of the Father do you want?
Steven Universe: Yes.
I actually feel bad for Steven. His life story is like Sari Sumdac but way worst that he need therapy....
@@syabilaazri7834, thankfully he now has a therapist.
404: Dislikes not found.
I love it how Red goes into the deep and dark subconscious of humanity and in the background you just have a casual, happy-go-lucky theme playing.
Missed opportunity to play MGS5's "Sins of the Father" instrumental
"Right here Luke, watch this video and make sure you take lots of notes!!!"
"But also, be sure to kill your dad who I'm not going to tell you is your dad until Yoda and I have properly manipulated you."
Username checks out
I feel like the desire for revenge is a desire for someone else (usually the one who wronged you) to understand the pain that you've gone through.
I mean, that depends on what you define as vengeance.
They are plenty of forms of vengeance where it's totally about seeking justice like the death penalty for murder.
"it doesn't actually matter if the person the anger's taken out on deserves it, anger just demands an outlet"
league of legends players be like
obligatory “we must carry Madame Zeroni up a mountain” reference.
No good dirty rotten pig stealing Great great grandfather
oh wow, didn't expect that reference here
Ah the memories
@@emblemblade9245
To be fair all Elya did was get a bit of advice and take the runt of the litter which most likely wouldve died or been killed, he did all the work carrying it uo the mountain and even learned his lesson about Myra at the end, Madame Zeroni was kind of a jerk, it was just a runty pig, especially considering that she punished his innocent ancestors, (insert red's ethics of vicarious revenge speech here)
having just re-read Holes, I can appreciate this so much
"The only thing I ever found that brought closure is when everyone's finally in the ground." -Caduceus Clay
Taliesin is a fucking genius
I feel like it's somewhat related to the phrase "Let the dead bury the dead" in a way
Funny that is said from a character in a world where ghosts, resurrection and necromancy is a thing...
Critters on an OSP video, now that's just perfect. And yeah, Taliesin is really flexing that high-wisdom Caduceus, and I love it.
don't know the guy but he sounds based
“For you, the day M Bison graced your village was the most important day of your life. For me, it was Tuesday”
Where is this from
@@vernacapsa8937 The Street Fighter movie
"Vengeance frames itself as justice but will be satisfied with the illusion of justice; an eye for an eye, no matter who it's from." - Red
Hey, red! Trope talk suggestion for you; "The noodle incident" or "Noodle incidents" are a literary tool that gives more literary weight to an event or mcguffin than a description would, mostly by context and the reader's imagination.
Named because of a short series of Calvin and Hobbes comics wherein everyone at school gives the eternally frustrated 6-year-old grief about something he did in the past that is now known only as "The noodle incident." It is hinted at vaguely many times, but the writer ultimately leaves it up to your imagination; which is a strength because whatever the audience dreams up will be way more literarily impactful (in this case funny) than anything he could write down. And that's not even the only time that comic uses a noodle incident, see, there's this kids book calvin always wants read called "Hampster Hewwy and the Gooey Kablooey" and Now I'm ranting.
Another instance this trope is used is in an S.C.P. story wherein a certain slime MUST NEVER come into contact with a human corpse. Why? That's classified. A foundation researcher files the suggestion to test the slime on a human corpse because it's never listed what happens, only that it is a V E R Y bad idea, and the researcher is curious. He gets demoted and heavily scolded by an O-5, who states "Just don't."
A "Noodle Incident" is a rare trope that involves telling the audience that something exists or happened, but not telling them what it was, in order to give the plot point more narrative weight than a description would give it, partly because of the imaginations of the audience. It is a great trope that I think you should cover.
Effectively the "mystery box".
It's the same concept, though the "noodles accident" seems like a more spesific type of such a thing
So it's like the Llama incident from Milo Murphy's Law. Well, until it was actually explained to us. :D
@@RasmusVJS never read it, but probably yes. Was it only hinted at and never explained for most of its relevancy?
@@justsomejerseydevilwithint4606 It's a cartoon series, not a book. But yes, for half of the first season, things would be explained by "because of the Llama incident," but without ever explaining the context.
@@RasmusVJS then yeah, that's a noodle incident.
The sins of the father is something that often ties into sports rivalries as well, especailly the non-geographic ones. The players that may have got that rivalry started may be long gone, but the hatred between the teams and their selective fanbases is almost baked into their collective identities.
And it often only takes one slight against the other to kick it off
So like that war between Honduras and El Salvador. The war wasn’t exactly about the fútbol matches between the two, but it did increase the tensions between the two nations and ended up being a trigger/last straw.
@@Crimson_Valor bananas
Damn, I’m now imagining a reimagining of Romeo and Juliet set in the modern day, where the feud is just two families who support rival teams. (Also, no one dies in this version, they just go to the hospital for injuries from fights or stupid stunts. And the wedding scene is just one of the young lovers giving the other their dad’s old class ring.)
@@Tustin2121 I mean the modern day one already exists. It's not very good, but it has Leonardo deCaprio at least
Hell, the OSU-Michigan rivalry started because the two states went to war over a city. The government ruled that Ohio got the city, and Michigan got the UP.
You know, I've come across an interesting sociological explanation for vengeance before.
So at its most basic, simple level, vengeance can be interpreted as a message: "Don't mess with me or you'll pay for it." Someone kills your wife and kids? You kill them, and then maybe people will be less likely to mess with you for it. The problem is your wife and kids will still be dead, and while any future wife and children might be thus made marginally safer, you're probably getting on in years and anyways they're not quite the same thing. So vengeance has a pretty poor payoff for the individual, considering.
But what about for the community? Say Bob of the Berserker tribe goes on a roaring rampage of revenge after his family is killed, wreaking untold havoc on his attackers before dying in battle. The Berserker tribe could then start telling his story, and identifying with him, and above all, passing on the story to OTHER tribes and making sure THEY know them too. "Yeah, you heard of the Berserker tribe? Someone killed Bob's family once and in return he nearly wiped out an entire tribe. Berserkers are crazy, man, don't mess with them, it's not worth it." Thus, even though Bob doesn't benefit, the Berserkers DO, and thus encourage and cultivate an attitude of "I must have vengeance," lionizing Bob as a cultural hero because this helps protect the community at large. Of course, by cultivating such an attitude, they encourage others of the community to go on similar revenge rampages if they're wronged, thus growing the legend of "Those Berserkers you really don't want to mess with."
There's two problems with this, though - first, if you keep encouraging generation after generation to take vengeance for slights, eventually you're very likely to end up with a culture that's caught up squabbling with each other over the slightest fault, making it hard for them to cooperate with either outsiders or each other. That leads into the second problem - that eventually, society develops in such a way that cooperating with each other on a scale larger than tribes and making sure such squabbles don't get out of hand is more beneficial to a community than the less sophisticated defense mechanisms of the past. It's HARD to run a modern society when everyone has a deep, emotional, and culturally-encouraged need to take personal vengeance on anyone who wrongs them.
I'm extrapolating here, but this feels like where a lot of the "Revenge only harms everyone involved" stories come from - attempts to culturally push back against older narratives of "Revenge is totally awesome and everyone should do it" as societies get to the point where the costs start outweighing the benefits.
It's interesting to note, however, that honor-based revenge cultures tend to be more common in societies without strong central authority, i.e. without someone they can turn to for impartial justice. That comes with a corollary - if ever a society comes to either lose the central authority, or come to believe in its inability to deliver justice for any reason (such as, say, massive corruption), we might very well find stories praising revenge becoming increasingly popular...
... looks at Batman and the Punisher....
For a real world example of that last paragraph just look at the story of the kill-dozer. Dude turned a bulldozer into a tank and destroyed a shit ton of property because some rich asshole(s) and the local government they paid off continually screwed him over.
My favorite version of this trope is Zuko’s relationship with his past and the legacy of the fire nation and Katara’s relationship with the fire nation, her mother’s killer, and therefore Zuko in Avatar: the Last Airbender. Especially how this plays out in The Southern Raiders. Because both of the are dealing with the ramifications of the different types of “sins of the father”, Katara taking on the role of the avenger.
Not just that, but Katara learns through her quests with Aang that the citizens of the fire nation aren’t some superpowered maniacal order, they’re just… people. People that are trying to live their lives and do their best. And people who also need her and Aang’s help (as we’ve seen in “The Painted Lady”)
She never executes her revenge on people who are undeserving. When Zuko offers to help her get closure, she may be still willing to use any means necessary to get her revenge, but only on those who deserve it, namely, the man who took Kaya from her
my personal favorite would be Ace from One Piece. Since we know the sins he obtained weren’t justified because his father was on the wrong side of the law but not on the wrong side of things like humanity and morality.
@@joshuaatehortua7352 Oh, yeah! Ace dealt with that shit his whole life. To the point where he hated Roger, even though they probably would’ve gotten along pretty well. Probably hurt Whitebeard a lot with how much Ace resented Roger, considering how close the two of them were.
@@joshuaatehortua7352 , One Piece is the only form of media where the Sins of the Father Troop was done perfectly, and outside of that there’s never been a form of media that does the Sins of the Father Troop as perfectly as One Piece does.
@@Grim_Sister It's a shame that Katara had to act high and mighty to cover up the fact that she knew stealing Appa from Aang to go on that journey with Zuko was wrong. "Tch, I knew you wouldn't understand". Then again, characters with certain inherent attributes are apparently free from accountability because "systemic oppression".
The entire plot for first three seasons of “The Dragon Prince” is based on breaking the cycle of bearing the sins of the forefathers. It’s actually blatantly said by Callum in one of the first episodes that revenge creates an endless and pointless cycle that accomplishes nothing. It’s such a great show, 10/10.
I also like that the show doesn't have any of those "always forgive everyone for everything, no matter what" busted morals. It doesn't tell us we need to forgive Viren, because Viren is just an awful person. Instead it's about breaking the cycle by not punishing people for what their parents did, and standing up to the people trying to perpetuate it for their own gain.
@@zoro115-s6b 100% agreed. That show is such amazing inspiration, I can’t wait for the new seasons!
Except its unrealistic(despite show trying to not be black and white). How am I supposed to believe that dragons and elves are suddenly not racist towards humanity because this one human boy returned this one dragon baby(even if its a prince).
@@DeathKitta I'm pretty sure that the later seasons would address that, after all we only saw a few types of elves and only two dragons (minus the flashback of the dragon king and the other dragons during the fight with the monster soldiers) who we can clearly see their perspective on humans (one of whom still hates humans). There will definitely be some who still hold deep grudges.
@@DeathKitta It is a fantasy cartoon, so idk if they’re banking that hard into realism, haha! If I was a writer for the show, I would probably write the next season to show there is still severe division between the magical races despite the dragon prince being returned, but I guess we’ll have to see how they handle the next season! We haven’t really gotten a chance to see the widespread effect of outcome of the dragon princes’s returns. But yeah! Excited all the same! 👌
11:15 Red: "Pretty much the atypical example of this is-"
Me: "The Hatfield and the McCoy."
Red: "Romeo and Juliet."
Me: "Ooooohhhhh yeeeeeeaaaaaaah. I keep forgetting that whole thing was warring families and not _just_ two dumbs teens whose parents didn't want them to be together."
Thanks for the video Red.
I thought of them too
That was exactly what I thought lol!
Me too!
That was my first thought as well.
“The Montague's stole our lunch money!”
“Yeah, but you broke our snow globe!”
“Guys, it’s been two hundred years, cut it out.”
NO!”
Because it was not mentioned in this episode jet: Avatar actually had an episode concerning the sins of the father: in Chapter Eleven: The Great Divide there are two tribes that hated each other for centruies. So, Spoiler i guess, Aang resolves the situation by making up a complety harmless version of the inciting incident. And then everyone is kinda: okay no more reason to hate each other i guess, lets get along instead. And they do. And it is hillarius to me.
Also Avatar is soo good you guys.
God, that episode was so boring!
People are upset that Aang told a lie. But I'm like "jeez, these tribes were fully willing to slaugher each other over nothing. This lie saved lifes and ended a stupid feud."
Imagine this: Person B being targeted for the "sins of their father" ends up becoming like their father in order to survive the wrath of Person A and potentially even stop them. After all their father usually has bested them before now they'll do it again as their son.
Or daughter.
So Harry "Grew Up To Be A Cop" Potter?
@@PosthumanHeresy no, nothing like that in the slightest. But please, explain why you think so, I'm very curious
My brain every time someone talks about tropes/themes even though the entire point is that they’re recurring in media: woah this sure does apply to a lot of Things
I mean, we have to take inspiration from somewhere.
Red missed out a good opportunity to mention Scar from FMAB. He didn't just go after the State alchemists, he also targeted Ed - a literal child - even though Ed played no role in the Ishval War. His journey ends in him fighting and defeating the literal manifestation of Wrath, and reprimanding Mustang who was after the same vengeance as Scar.
The way his arc finished with him defeating the manifestation of the main part of his main flaw? Iconic
Definitely a very good end for this character.
The best part is that he didn’t really want to fight Wrath because he had more important things to do at the time.
Scar is an especially good example when you look at the manga and brotherhood. His very first kills were the Rockbells, who had just saved his life and weren't even alchemists. The scene where he meets Winry and realizes that he'd done to her exactly what had been done to him and he couldn't even justify it was a really well done turning point for both of them, especially when Winry acknowledges she has no intention of forgiving him but chooses to do better than him anyway.
You know. I never even thought of that final fight between Scar and Wraith in that way before now. Huh... That does add quite a bit of extra weight to that whole encounter symbolically.
5:14 I have a favorite example of this:
...Don't hunt 'em 'cause you been wronged.
Hunt 'em 'cause what they did was wrong.
There's a world of difference there, kid.
One makes you selfish. The other makes you a hero.
And I see a hero in you.
And with this last good lesson, a gift. I know it feels right in your hand-its weight easy, its trigger smooth. Use it as you will-I know you'll use it right.
It's yours now, 'til the last flame dies and all words've been spoken.
'Til that time.
Safe journeys. Straight aim. And good huntin'.
J.
-A letter to Shin Malphur from his third father, Jaren Ward, written before Ward's ill-fated showdown with the infamous Dredgen Yor in the wooded hollow beyond Beggars' Gulch
"There are no Innocents! Not anymore! Any one of them could have stood up and said 'No, we won't behave like ANIMALS anymore.'"
Vlad Dracula Tepes, Castlevania; Season 1, Episode 1
Aaaand now the village babies are demon food. God damn it, religious zealots.
"We can admit that we're killers, but we're not going to kill today. That's all it takes. Knowing that we're not going to kill, today."
- Capt. James Kirk.
Vlad "If from Turkey you hail, you're gonna be impaled" III of Wallachia
Well so could he
I didn't see him stopping
@@jacquesnouvel6436 you have a point
Let's be real, Pink Diamond left _so much_ for Steven to deal with.
So much so that he has to go to therapy.
In this show, 99% of his problems are connected to Pink Diamond. The last 1% is Onion...
Not best mom but not the absolute worse.
Not... really? Rose has a lot of baggage, sure, but all of these problems are because Spinel and the Diamonds are petty assholes and Rose thought after so long that they were never coming back. As far as Rose knew, Steven would never have had to deal with all of this. Even Steven himself admitted that Rose didn't want him to deal with her problems.
I don't think so. From her perspective it's been 5000 years since the war. They've been living on the peaceful planet with no threats (accept for the corrupted gems). So she didn't know that the moment she is gone all this things will happen
"No matter how bad character B is, associating with them is not the equivalent of doing whatever character B did" sadly too few people understand this.
Please emphasize it..... I also don't get it
@Mac mcskullface That's a different matter.
Red was clearly talking about a situation where being somehow related to the villain is the only connection the target of the vengance has to the original crime.
@Mac mcskullface That still doesn't make it exactly the same; "not-so-innocent bystander" winds up being on a lower rung of the Spectrum of Badness. Depending on the exact context, of course they can still be held partially responsible, but they're still _not_ the people who actually _did_ the things, and that's important to remember.
@Mac mcskullface "share the blame" implies equality.
@Mac mcskullface the term is usually used to mean equal shares. It's implicit; you'll be misunderstood frequently if you use it otherwise.
I always loved the wink and nudge "Kill Bill" has to this. When the Bride kills Vernita and Vernita's daughter sees the Bride standing over her mother's body just afterward, the Bride acknowledges that, although she had hoped to leave the child out of this and minimize collateral damage, she has literally no defense if the daughter later chooses to seek revenge on her for the death of her mother. The resigned reaction of "I really can't blame you if you want to do the same to me one day," coupled with the fact that, at that point in the story, the Bride believes her own child paid the ultimate price for her "sins" always really stuck with me.
Concept: Character A is horribly wronged by Character B. A goes to seek vengeance on B who is with child character C who ends up abandoned by B and probably homeless after B flees the scene in typical villain fashion. What follows is a road-trip of teeth clenched teamwork and found family.
Tangled the Series
Netflix Castlevania
Do it mate. That sounds cool.
cannon busters
@@elytraman1809 Criminally underrated show. Doubt it will ever happen, but I hold out hope we might one day see a season 2.
"Just so you know I only hit you, cause of burning hatred for your father" ~ Vegeta Abridged
You forgot the deadpan "Take that." 😂
Anger- isn’t always bad though. Sometimes you have to be angry, until you’re far far away from the person hurting you, or they’ll never stop.
I think Red addressed that when she mentioned "healing". Personally, I think getting away from or even killing your abuser in self-defense is an act of healing, since you're basically taking a stand and not letting this person hurt you anymore. The "anger" part that Red is talking about seems to be if you're already in a situation where you are far away and safe from your abuser, but you decide that someone needs to be responsible for your suffering, and you take it out on someone tangentially related to the abuser, like a relative of theirs. I have a bit of firsthand experience from this because my dad emotionally and financially abused my mom, and throughout my childhood she would sometimes blow up at me and my siblings when we did something that reminded her of our father.
This is a really good point. Anger is not good or bad in and of itself, rather it is how we respond to that anger that matters.
Ya know that’s actually arguably the point of anger from an evolutionary standpoint. It’s a feeling motivates a commonly rational mind into an aggressive or even violent state to protect itself or entities essential to it.
But it’s kind of an inelegant mechanism that hasn’t aged well, which is kind of the root reason why so many people with past trauma and repressed frustration have anger issues.
Speaking as another person who was hurt and got away, I'll also defend the hell out of anger. Anger can't tell you what to do, but it can tell you that you don't deserve what you're being given ... and if you _can_ figure out what to do, it can give you energy to do it.
Emotions aren't right or wrong, actions are. And if you know what your feelings are and aren't telling you, then you can use that to figure out what to do.
Agreed wholeheartedly. I was going to write a long comment about how my anger has literally kept me alive when I otherwise would’ve ended it, but I’m just going to leave it at that.
"Then, it will happen this way: You make the kill; but you find that your pain doesn't die with [the man who murdered your family]. So you go off into the night to find another face... and another... and another... until vengeance has become your whole life. And you won't know why."
-- Batman Forever
That line, and Jim Carrey's Riddler, were easily the best parts of that movie.
then you dress up as a giant bat and haunt the night for the rest of your life
@@matthewmuir8884I’d add one more bit to great things in that movie: “You see I’m both Bruce Wayne and Batman. Not because I have to be. But because I choose to be.” I love the idea of a Bruce who conquers his demons and reaches a point where he doesn’t need to be Batman, but chooses to remain as him because Batman is an important force for good.
@@magnusprime962 That was a good line and concept as well. _Batman Forever_ had all the ingredients for a great Batman film, and I would like to see a Batman film try again at some of those ideas: Batman reaching a point where he doesn't need to be Batman but keeps being Batman by choice as you said, and I'd like to see another attempt at Robin (The Dark Knight Rises doesn't count).
@@matthewmuir8884 hope Brave and the Bold will do that.
"Pain and suffering are a kind of currency passed from hand to hand until they reach someone who receives them but does not pass them on." ~ Simone Weil
Villain: I couldn’t kill the hero so I killed his newborn son instead. MY CONSCIOUS IS CLEAR AND JUSTIFIED!
Hero: ... I beg to differ
To quote Kratos “The cycle ends here. We must be better than this.”
Which is tragic, because all Kratos did was redirect the flow of revenge, making himself the object of Baldirs families revenge. Which is the rare example of C killing A, earning the wraith of B.
@@lordbiscuitthetossable5352 Baldr/Baldur.
But, you are correct. Granted, Freya's desire for vengeance is misplaced, as Baldur was an adult capable of making his own choices, and he _was_ warned against what he did, but she's in mourning and not thinking straight. And probably not willing to compromise on her oaths of vengeance. And even if she were, that is cold comfort.
@@andyknightwarden9746 Thank you for the correction! I couldn't recall the spelling immediately during the short period of time I had my phone open.
But that's the thing that more stories should take note of; the desire for revenge *can* be circumstantial righteous, but is much more unlikely to be irrational. I mean; even fundamentally as a people, we love to villainize people who inconvenience us. Freya is that ramped up to 20, overly protective to a fault and ultimately is a pretty unintentionally wicked person who is directly responsible for everything that happens within the story. She is the absolute last person who should be seeking revenge, yet will because she is entirely incapable of setting aside her helicopter mother complex for the greater good for even a moment. Probably arguably more terrifying than Baldur ever was. An incredibly dramatic note to end that chapter of the story on.
Didn't Kratos end the Cycle by literally killing any possible person who'd feacibly seek vengance on him??
@@OtakuJuanma2 they’re talking about God of War 4
Think one of my favorite uses of this trope is the plot of Final Fantasy XIV: Heavensward, which combines several different variants wonderfully. You've got an immortal dragon holding an entire KINGDOM responsible for the crimes of its first king and his court, even after millennia, since to an ageless being, it might as well have been yesterday. Meanwhile only a small portion of the kingdom's nobility ever benefited from the actions of their forefathers; fewer still are even aware of it, perpetuating the war they wage in self-defense as a holy crusade rather than admit any wrongdoing in their nation's history.
Heavensward being "the award winning expansion pack" was most definitely deserved. Currently my second favorite story out of all of the game, shb being the first by a wide margin. (Try as it might endwalker just hasn't topped it so far for me)
*"Anger. Is like an amber. Blow on it, and it shall grow. It will eat away at everything within reach, and turn into flame. And flame, boy, cares nothing for what and who it harms. And it consumes EVERYTHING. Until nothing is left behind but ashes and cinders."*
-An old soldier, teaching his descendent of the bane of humanity.
I think you mean ember? Amber is a type of semiprecious stone.
@@aaronsirkman8375 Or, if you prefer, petrified tree blood.
@@boobah5643 That's a great way to describe Amber. Not the word he was going for though, clearly, but metal AF.
What's this from?
This sounds like something Uncle Iroh said o_o
Terry Bogard solved that problem beautifully: he first killed Geese and then adopted Geese's son
It helps that Geese was an exceptionally shitty father
killing your rival and adopting their child is the biggest power move
@@h4zrd-rs252 manfred von karma vibes
Terry: "I'm your dad now"
@@h4zrd-rs252*power wave
2:01 "An eye for an eye, no matter who that eye is from."
Holy SHIT
And don't forget the classic: Oh? Your parents are dead? Well they owed me and these other *fine* men a lot of money, get working.
Chainsaw man, who went on to become a wage slave
This is just how real life debt works too.
@@yoursonisold8743 Ah. Capitalism!
Hera: My husband cheated on me, so I am going to take it out on the kid and the woman who also was probably tricked or raped.
Greek gods were masters at victim blaming.
@@yoursonisold8743 Welcome to Athens
@@Ed-1749 Don't worry, Thebans and Spartans had similar myths.
@@yoursonisold8743 oh i know, greece is far from perfect. It just happens that athens is the funny morally questionable city.
"...and also all the other children, because my husband cheats on me a lot."
"That one got spicier than I expected"
How spicy were you expecting a trope deeply connected to morality to be?
This video is basically just Sasuke. It is astounding how many different types of revenge-motivations he cycles through before coming back to team Kakashi.
Pretty much. And now, in Boruto, he's basically, "I need to atone for what I did and make sure none of these kids end up like I did."
I had my criticisms of Sasuke as a character in Naruto and Naruto Shippuden, but I have no problem with how he's written in Boruto.
@@matthewmuir8884 you actually watch Boruto? are you a massochist or something?
@@NymbusCumulo928 Yes, I watch Boruto. No, I am not "a masochist or something". The show definitely has a number of problems (its protagonist being one of the biggest problems), but it does have a surprising amount of good stuff in it.
When I tried it, I found the first arc to be rather meh overall and I almost gave up on it, but then the second arc (which incidentally was all about Sarada and barely had Boruto in it) was a massive improvement and actually quite good, so I kept going. Arcs 3 and 4 went back to being meh, though they were an improvement over the first arc. Then the show adapted the film's storyline, and it was a massive improvement (both over the rest of the show and over the film), and it was the first time I found Boruto to be even remotely compelling as a protagonist.
Ever since then, the show has had its weaker moments, and it still has a number of lingering issues (such as that Boruto has gone back to being a passive protagonist with nothing really driving him), but it has actually been rather enjoyable to watch overall. I just wish they'd give Boruto some form of internal motivation and that they'd stop using Konohamaru as a punching bag for each powerful arc villain and actually let him have some victories. I have other gripes with the show, but those are the two big ones right now.
Character A: "You will PAY for the way your father betrayed me all those years ago!"
Character C: "Betrayed!?"
Character A: "YES!"
Character C: "What are you talking about!?"
Character A: "Don't you already know!?"
Character C: "No! I don't even know who my father is! He has been unavailable my whole life!"
Character A: "Well, sucks to be you. I'm still getting revenge on you though."
Surprised you didn’t bring up the real world version of this trope-the Hatfields and the McCoys. I don’t think they remember what started that family feud either, but it killed their family members left and right. There was even a Romeo and Juliet kind of moment between two of true younger members.
i believe it had to do with the civil war - with the ancestor of one group being killed in fight caused over him fighting for the union on his return
Wait i thought this was only a thing in mlp
@@illustrate5846 That episode was based on the real world (and VERY bloody) feud.
@@chriss780 I think the moment you mentioned with the civil war matter i think both families were in the fight with the confederacy till things went wrong in there area of the war and got out of there.
Grays and Braithwaites who?
"Your ancestors' sins mean you deserve any and all suffering you ever experience."
Well gee and this a hot button topic.
A little too real
Rings kind of hollow though. While the curse of Hamm was a real life example, I think we can all agree that the sins of the father is an inherently unjust troupe. There is nothing "spicy" about a completely non controversial statement.
This reminds me of that guy that got shunned out of his hometown by friends and the community during ww2 because his last name was the same as Hitler. He had zero relation with Hitler.
People will make any excuse to spite another person.
This also reminds me of why Hitler started WW2 in the first place, vengeance for losing WW1
@@TheYoungKing1215 less vengeance for losing, and more vengeance for the supreme assfucking the allies gave Germany afterwards, and the rampant degeneracy that took hold during the Weimar era.
@@scotcheggable you listen to nightcore.
@@scotcheggable treaty of Versailles go _great depression_
@@goldegreen maybe look through the titles of your own playlists before casting shade
Beau: sometimes justice (vengeance) brings closure
Cadeucus: the only thing I find that brings closure is when everyone is finally in the ground
-Critical Role- 2x98
This scene always gets me in terms of revenge tropes.