Ex Marine Fighter Pilot in Australia Wanted By The US
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- Опубликовано: 28 сен 2024
- Daniel Duggan, a traitor or not?
Every Monday at 8PM ET, Mover (F-16, F/A-18, T-38, 737, helicopter pilot, author, cop, and wanna be race car driver) and Gonky (F/A-18, T-38, A320, dirt bike racer, author, and awesome dad) discuss everything from aviation to racing to life and anything in between.
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everyone in DCS, that made a video on landing on the boat is going to jail...
Sheeeet, that's me fcuked 😂🤣
I'm skipping town... BTW, wasn't merc Gonky and few other aviators giving us advice?!
Does fireball on the deck count as a landing?
Bad story by 60 minutes and bad research by these clowns making this video. China first learned to take off and land on aircraft carriers back in end of 1980's when Australia sold them HMAS Melbourne a aircraft carrier as scrap. they studied the landing deck and took it off and practised landing and take offs back then. then bought 2 other aircraft carriers also and did same and rebuilt the Ukrainian one that is now their 1st ever useable aircraft carrier of China.
Is more to the story either true or made up US BS like US always does to get it's own way.
He taught them more and all our Western combat air tactics or all made up..
It's not just the "training Chinese pilots" that he's in troubles for. He faces charges of conspiracy, arms trafficking and money laundering. US authorities found correspondence with Duggan on electronic devices seized from Su Bin a convicted Chinese defense hacker. Su Bin, arrested in Canada in 2014, pleaded guilty in 2016 to theft of US military aircraft designs by hacking major US defense contractors. He is listed among seven co-conspirators with Duggan in the extradition request. The training of pilots is just the juicy headline.
Then it is more serious than even the video tells. Whether he in particular is guilty, I cannot understand how a military member can commit such acts.
That's even easier to explain, if Bin was that involved in a Chinese spy operation then yes he'd be looking to make contacts with people to exploit them. Plus the alphabet guys are really adept at charging people
Those are likely trumped up charges, à la racketeering charges. Money laundering charge for transferring dollars to rand to rmb when that's where he was living?
As a proud Aussie I for one was not offended by your "he got him a Margot Robbie"! You guys are the best humour in my week,
One point that may be worth weighing.....if he did actually give away classified information - or at least proprietary information that's considered sensitive - it may not be in the charging documents because those could be released publicly. So maybe the carrier stuff is the only thing that was talked about for news to latch on to.
That might be a reach, for sure, but it's not out of the realm of possibility.
The US Govt does go after DCS players. Heard of Cap from Grim Reapers? They went after him for their vids.
Later in the 60 minutes interview they did state that he and his wife lived in China for a period of time after the South Africa gig, so there’s that. He also had contracts to help evaluate Chinese military pilots as they progressed through phases of training and they he taught combat tactics beyond “landing on carriers”…allegedly. I’m not saying he’s guilty or innocent, but does he really expect anyone to believe that he had no idea that the military aged Chinese dudes he was training in South Africa weren’t part of the military? As Joe would say, “Come on man.”
At the time, China wasn't an adversary.
@@DollyRanchI don’t know where you’ve been living since 1946 but China has always been considered an adversary.
Add to that the fact that he renounced his US citizenship in the Beijing US embassy. Dude was shady af and did absolutely nothing to help his situation.
@@kmrtnsn lots of things have happened since 1946... the relationship has gone up and down. Chinese PLA used to train with USMC in Australia. Only a decade or so ago
@@DollyRanch Never, ever happened.
What is missing s the type of flit school in South Africa we are talking about. Is it a military school? Was South Africa contracting to instruct Chinese military pilots?
There's definitely more to it like was said. It can't just be teaching how to land.
There are at least a hundred videos, some even from the U.S Navy, showing how aircraft land on carriers. from the Pilots to the LSOs and even down to all the sailors and equipment that make it possible. You can find tactics and procedures on RUclips for every branch of the U.S military.
The guy must have actually been giving sensitive information directly to China or something like that. The U.S must be unable to say exactly what he did because that would compromise security.
Hard to say for us if he actually did anything. Like they said in the video it could be someone with a vendetta and he didn’t really do anything, or it could be entirely legitimate and he’s a traitorous animal.
I’m pretty sure the Chinese navy have had that figured out for a while. They don’t need an American teaching them
@@chadwells7562 I've seen other comments saying that he was in China at one point and was doing a lot more than just teaching carrier landings. This is the Internet though so who really knows besides the people directly involved. I'll do my own digging and see what I find. Easier than being wrong.
@@RedTail1-1 For sure the only way to even have any real idea is to do your own digging. I definitely don’t take the government and state media at their word that this guy is a POS when it could just be an axe to grind or using him to make a point. Common sense tells me that a dude who’s been out 10+ years and was a Harrier pilot can’t have known that much secret squirrel stuff so this is overblown. Would I train the Chinese enemy? No, but I don’t think a moral objection equates sending this dude to prison for 70 years.
Im just a normal non pilot viewer and it was relieving(and funny) to see you guys laugh when they mentioned carrier training, but also does that mean his charges are over the top?
@3:06 All Harrier guys went through the strike fighter pipeline, which means they carrier qualed on the T-45
Correct.. i knew a spanish ex Harrier driver and he told us he went throught the entire T-45 course with traps before moving to the Harrier.. aparently a requirement for naval aviators even if you are not suposed to trap later
Just the open source info in Wiki is pretty damning of Duggan. He can rot in prison.
Bigger story.. about all the Chinese nationals going to USA Colleges. Getting Aerospace engineering degrees.
It's far less of an issue because an engineering degree doesn't give one access to confidential or classified information. Also, you can get an engineering degree at a good European university.
@@helifanodobezanozi7689 It's not what you learn, it's who you meet...
@@AndyRRR0791 Soooo, you wouldn't meet people who are as equally important to the US (or our MANY allies) while attending an overseas university?
I researched hypersonics few years ago wondering why USA was behind, when they usually are ahead. found good info even Australia is one of most advanced in hypersonics that no one speaks of.
Anyway a Chinese guy is building a hypersonic aeroplane and he worked at NASA and returned to China and took a abandoned NASA project with him and how is building it.
China claim of world fastest hypersonic wind tunnel is a stolen Australian Ray Stalker free piston shock tunnel design they claim they improved to make it world fastest.
Australian's have world fastest scramjet at mach 12 and Ray Stalker Aussie is recorded as first to get essence of flight from scramjets.
All these Aussies teach space and aeronautics at Queensland university where Chinese are one of Australia biggest trades.
Yes we teach them it all in our universities. computer programming. cyber security, engineering.
Australia, USA and UK have the highest levels of University rating in the world and we teach them everything.
Ray Stalker tubes the hypersonic wind tunnel is at Universities in Australia students use to study technology lol.. Chinese students used these lol.
Thank you for giving us another look into this, gives me something to ponder about what really is going on, we may never know the truth,..... I always enjoy when the 3 of you are together, I find myself laughing out loud! Again, thank you for all you do!
Does NATOPS cover and apply to Harrier's?
Given that there's a NATOPS manual for the Harrier, I would think that's a yes.
I love it when you guys talk about stuff like this.
Did you guys watch the full story before you recorded this? Doesn’t sound like it.
Yeah, they skipped over a lot...
Didn’t Marine SNAs who tracked for Harriers go through T-45s and the CQ syllabus?
This guy is probably old enough to have gone through T-2s, and TA-4s, but yes, he would have have CQ in intermediate and advanced.
He did move to China for a number of years. Just saying.. he also renounced his US citizenship
He renounced at the US Embassy in Beijing. That in itself is telling.
@@kmrtnsn I know that they said they've discussed this guy before, but I wish for this video they didn't only selectively address a couple of short clips of the episode. Had they addressed the full episode, or atleast the key points, the fact that he was in China for several years would've been brought up, his renouncing of his citizenship, etc. They even said something about the fact that "had he been in China training pilots...." Well he literally was in China for several years, so one should definitely wonder what exactly he was doing there. There's also more to this than him "training" on carrier ops. What about engagement strategies, maneuvers, etc. There are a fair number of mil pilots that play DCS and they've mentioned how they have to be careful about how and what they do in the game so not to reveal combat strategies, etc.
@2:25 "unless you're in political office". Hahahahahaha. So sad but so true. And the "things my wife never said' also cracked me up. Wombat is en fuego today
Also, @4:40 If he actually sold/spilled secrets, lock him up. But ANY MSM is a clown $hit show. 100% on team Gonky.
And Gonky's 'I disinvite you" is 100% spot on. BEST. SHOW. EVER
Do former military have to report to the govt if they're contracting for other countries?
It's probably NOT a bad idea to check back with the services -- just in case.
When former military guys are writing their memoirs or fiction based on their past experiences, there are definitely some clearances they have to pass and things they can't talk about -- at least not directly. You can't be giving out specs and flight envelopes for things like air to air missiles, for instance.
Do you think Hollywood can produce films like TOP GUN without clearance from the federal government? You don't get to make the film WITH THEIR HELP unless you listen to them and make the script changes they "request"! That "request" may be THEIR demands that you give into unless you want to pay an extra $250,000 out of your pocket to CGI mock dogfights they may only charge you a $50,000 gas bill for! That's how this works...
Yes they are required to get the OK from the US
Basically yes, military skills you recieved while in service to the US govt are covered, you are required to get permission from the department of state to use these skills in the service of a foriegn govt or organisation
Also note this covers non military persons. I work with an american dual citizen, he spent a couple of years working at one of the big MIC on phased arrays. The knowledge he learned while working there is covered under itars. So if he does worked with phased arrays for any company he is required to get permission from the state department
He was using simulators like DCS in south Africa.
The company you keep says a lot about your intentions. Su Bin. None of us know all the details. If he was part of compromising US security than that speaks for itself. All for $$$. He loved the US so much that he renounced his citizenship when it was unnecessary to do so.
Emotional appeals won’t save the lives lost if he did betray the trust.
The video just seems to be too vague to draw any kind of conclusions. I need to know 1) Exactly what information this man conveyed. 2) Was it labeled by the DOD as classified information? 3) who exactly did he tell that to? 4) Were they either representatives of, or directly connected to, the Chinese government? 5) What was his intent and purpose in passing this information on?
If the United States government does intend to prosecute the man, they need to present this information to a grand jury per the terms of the fifth amendment in order to obtain an indictment against him. Again, by the terms of the fifth amendment, you cannot deprive a person of life, liberty or property without due process of law. We need to remember that and act accordingly.
If he flew Harriers, he had to have been stationed at one time at MCAS Cherry Point.
Thanks!
Thank you for the support!!!
Great discussion.
He would have been a T45 guy at some point? And did he pass any actual classified info?
And I think his school had a supersonic JL-9 (FTC 2000)
The spanish navy Harrier drivers definitily go throught the T-45 so im guessing the USMC (and Italians) does too
We may know everything 60 minutes Australia knows, what else does the US know though... I'm guessing we'll find out soon enough.
wtf is up with Movers mic this episode? plz tell me he didn't censor himself?
Now you you have to get a "Harrier guy" on the show.
Live in SA, tried to comment twice, both deleted within minutes. sad
Bunch of my buddies went and taught the Saudi's privately when they got out and made a fortune. It was well known career path after getting out of the RCAF. You could put on a decent training program with all the unclass stuff out there.
firstly Canada doesn't have any law preventing them doing so, same as the australian and UK pilots who did it. Note both AUS and UK bought in legislation to prevent their pilots doing this in the future. Also KSA is a an ally and its not difficult to get permission from the state department for american pilots to do training. Just like gronly when he was in Malaysia flying with them
does a harrier even have a arrestor hook? geez
This is the Australian equivalent of blowing up Nordstream. Two Aussies imprisoned indefinitely in the US Imperial Provinces pending a US extradition case...
Maybe he was giving them VTOL Info for a new Chinese VTOL Jet
Seems like this guy is being railroaded. Like the guys said, if he'd gone to China that would have been one thing, but working at a flight school in South Africa is another. He didn't even own the flight school as far as we know, he just worked there.
he also worked in mainland china, When he renounced his american citizenship he did it at the american embassy in bejing
@@richardthomson4693 Ok, that wasn't mentioned, thanks. Might be something too this then.
How many chicom pilots has L3Harris trained over the decades?
Hmmm.
So I am a professional with a non-transferable set of qualifications to the real world. Fighter Pilot.
I get an opportunity to teach the fun part to anyone at a flying school in another country.
Someone offers me a huge amount of money to do the same thing but that someone is not one of US - I am a traitor.
Even though the practical fun bit is something ANYONE can learn from various flight schools in the US and Britain;
John Boyd (Fighter Mafia) who DID write the book about modern fighter tactics - his report is unclassified and freely
downloadable from the internet.
NATOPS is unclassified and freely downloadable from the internet.
If I approach the pension department of the US Military and say someone offered me a huge amount of money to do
this so will you pay me the same amount to NOT do this? The cheque will be in the mail tomorrow?
Gonky - all I can say is that it is a good thing that Malaysia is one of US or you would be in huge trouble.
I am also sure that fighter tactics in aircraft from the 1950s and 1960s is very up to date and useful to today's modern
fighter operations.
BTW if you have the money ANYONE can sign up to the Empire Test Pilots School in Britain and they will teach you how
to be a Test Pilot, that includes everything you would practically need to know on how to take any aircraft to the edge of
the envelope - very useful when creating and modifying tactics.
"He's not exactly living in the land of freedom". The fact he lives in Australia has nothing to do with how the US decided to prosecute him. Plus Australia ranks higher on every freedom index than the US anyway and we have Margot Robbie so cope with that.
With six kids , just goes to show that their is nothing worth watching on Australian Televisdion
Duggan did live in China between 2005 to 2014. Important stuff happened during those years in view of China's carrier aviation history.
For instance, China had just acquired the Kiev from Russia in 2002. China had just started playing with carrier ops and was probably very interested to know anything about how the US operated it's aviation. The Kiev would become China's first operational aircraft carrier, refitted and renamed the Liaoning. China had acquired one WWII carrier, and two Soviet carriers which got renovated to become theme parks.
What if Duggan was quite incapable of properly training carrier landings, not having the applicable experience, but the money on offer was really sweet so he decided to fake it since there was no need to really "make it". He could have looked really credible because he was actually a trained fighter pilot. He'd have totally looked like hot shit to civilians amped up on Top Gun. He could have easily drawn the attention of the Chinese Air Force even if he was "only" a Harrier pilot.
Duggan could have chosen to be unethical on both fronts: to reveal military secrets to China, while actually being knowingly incompetent. It's kind of a hilarious way to be a jackass while making bank.
From America's standpoint he is sharing his training which is an offense. From China's standpoint, he could have been way more credible back in the day when DCS didn't yet exist. Way back in 2005, Duggan could have looked like a really good source given that China had only one operational carrier acquired from Russia named the Kiev in 2002. China could have been so ignorant in carrier operations that Duggan was a relative expert. From Duggan's perspective he didn't feel that he wasn't sharing anything sensitive because he knew he wasn't actually a carrier pilot.
Now in 2024 Duggan doesn't look like a credible carrier landing instructor. He looks like a goof, but to the Chinese, in 2010, he might have been the best that they could when they were more desperate to figure things out. They were pressured to start figuring things out because they were planning to lay the keel for their first indigenous carrier, Shandong, in 2013.
When one is desperate for information they will pay for many sources. Including sources which aren't ideal.
I sense that Duggan was probably a crap instructor for carrier landings, but he was the best that the Chinese could get at the time, right when they were looking to get into the carrier game. Duggan had probably talked to more actual US carrier pilots than China could find on Google so even as a 2nd hand source he was useful.
In this context, I can see the US government deciding to make a stern warning out of Duggan to the myriad of pilots that the US trains: don't even think of thinking about training THE ENEMY. It is political, but only because Duggan is incompetent. If Duggan was competent then it would be clear that he was in violation, but maybe competence isn't really the point.
The message is: Don't even think of sharing your training, of any kind, to non ITAR states. Even if you are incompetent.
Their first aircraft carrier wasn't the Kiev, it was the Varyag, the one they dragged around Africa.
@@ivantheteribul I got the names mixed up. The Varyag became the Liaoning, not the Kiev. The Kiev became a theme park.
I think I got the years right though.
China makes their first carrier landings on the Liaoning in late 2012, not long after Duggan started living in China in 2010. Just before in 2011, China starts practicing deck operations on a land emplaced built concrete carrier deck.
I think the timing of events does allow for the possibility that Duggan provided training assistance to China during his residency in China. The timing of events isn't proof though.
Maybe the contents of the communications from Su Bin provide the evidence that the US Gov is reasonably acting on.
The dates are just about exact.
I doubt very much that the US government would go after someone to the extent that they are if there was not something to it. I doubt this guy is innocent, he gave up his US citizenship, who does that? Especially a Marine. There is a reason he did, likely to avoid extradition of an Australian citizen rather than as an American citizen. I hope we find out the full extent of what he is accused of and why. If there is one thing I hate more than anything, it's a traitor.
Where’s the evidence?
I posted a link to his indictment, read it.
If he broke nda rules then charge him thusly. But if it is being conflated beyond that. Maybe not so cool at all. I think that is about it. If I speed and hit pulled over fora speed ing ticket. Give me the citation.But don’t use that stop to further investigate my self beyond that, etc.
The CCP may not have a VTOL aircraft now, but that doesn't mean they aren't in the process of developing one. Also, there IS a process in place for determining what happened. It's called a trial.....
maybe he was doing the Master Tang method of "We Purposely Trained (them) wrong.. as a joke" ?
Oh Hell! Wombat right on the money!!! 🤣
6 kids??? Geez this guy has been doing way too many live-fire exercises in conjunction with Australian forces clearly 😉
Hasn't DCS in Chinese servers already taught them how to land on aircraft carriers anyway?
nah they allready did with Battlefield 3
So this guy was flying a BAC Strikemaster in South Africa on the land allegedly teaching some Chinese pilots how to land on a carrier, lol...
it was a t-2 buckeye as well, also some of his charges might be from this aircraft as it was illegally exported from SA to china in breech of ITARS
I am with team Gonky, 60 min is a Clown Show.
Did you mean Australia is NOT EXACTLY the land of freedom.....really???
I thought I heard that too. Strange. Oh dear the US is selling Nuc subs to commie Aus the land of the unfree. 😂
Note to self; If I ever find myself teaching someone carrier landings, do so for the Midway class.. Watch the alphabet soup guys twitch...
didn't mean to offend anyone, but if you offended, its your problem
Only one side of the story allowed, not the truth
Once a marine always a marine!! Even if you rennounce your US Citizenship
Piss on him, he just played a Marine.
Didn’t this guy renounce his citizenship in Beijing?
In Australia.
@@edwhlamNo, at the embassy in Beijing.
@@edwhlam oh right. I read that he moved his family to China for 6 years
@@kmrtnsn Renunciation is a lengthly bureaucratic process. I think he started the process in Australia, and make have met at the US embassy in Beijing if he was working there at the time.
He tried in Australia but wasn't given Australian citizenship.
“When I was flying on the carrier we used to say ‘Any landing you walk away from is a good landing’”
OMG YOU GAVE THE CHINESE OUR SECRETS!!!!
One thing I found interesting is that Duggan didn't become a resident of Australia or even a dual citizen, he gave up his US citizenship.
This video skipped over a lot of details. I guess that's what the trial will be for.
I look at the list of DCS multiplayer servers with hundreds of them in Chinese, and have to laugh.
So a Harrier pilot taught Chinese pilots how to land on a carrier, without an actual carrier in South Africa, over 10 years ago? I know more about landing on a carrier by watching DCS videos on RUclips than he would have been able to teach Chinese pilots flying Cessna's in South Africa. I don't think we're getting the whole story here.
Maybe read the indictment…….
margo robbie is a russian 4 per cousin andy
Aviators objectivity females ????? surely not lol
Well… I don’t know if he got a Margot Robbie, just sayin.
Has to be more to it Maaaaaate .......
This reeks of upper deck BS.. REEKS..
First
🏆
So special.
“My wife will never say that about me.” 😆
In no way, shape, or form is a Scarier pilot a Fighter Pilot.
“No offense to Harrier pilots.” 😝
Have you seen the Harrier footage of the Falklands war? Those pilots were doing it all
@@RDEnduro They did, but you could also kick ass with a A-4 loaded with Sidewinder if you were trained as a fighter pilot. It is the training as much as the platform. (Also, I was just poking fun at Harrier pilots. 😆)
I've done carrier landings on Boeing's mobile F-18 simulator at airshows before, and the Boeing guys let anyone do it, even the asian kids.
Certain politicians have done worse and still walking free.
Didn't Gonky teach some things to the Malaysian air force? Come on Gonky, spill the beans 😁.
yes but betting he had permission of the state department. Its not hard permission to get when you going to allied countries
Yep, we ain't the land of freedum XD
And at 6:30 Wombat goes from being a well loved guest on the show to MY NEW HERO!!! 😂🤣
Let's be serious: We all owe Wombat a beer because he is just brilliant.
- Wombat... Thank you so much for your twisted acerbic humor. My day just got better!
CV NATOPS is unclassified and my squad uses it in DCS. I actually started teaching then CV NATOPS way back during the Microsoft Flight Sim II Pacific Theater days starting in 1999.
The only question should be does he want a blindfold or not
9:40 Finally! Gonky said it! No need to please everybody it's impossible anyways.
_60 Minutes Australia's_ post production must not understand that Harriers do not land on this [2:52] type of carrier. Was this Chinese *Su Bin* character (that was reportedly convicted for hacking) really Daniel Duggan's former business partner, _and_ did Duggan literally renounce his US citizenship while living in Beijing before returning to Australia?
This whole story makes my brain hurt
Follow the $$$$, he's got 8 mouths to feed
based Gonky
What could he possibly teach about landing a conventional navy aircraft aboard a super carrier without a conventional navy aircraft or a super carrier? I'd give the benefit of the doubt to the former U.S. Marine. Much of our own government are much bigger traitors. Also, true about DCS teaching more anyway.
As a former enlisted aircrew (Hunt for Red October) who 'knows things', retired in the 90s and I have no current intel in my head, there are still things I will NEVER do. One big one... I will never step foot in Russia or China. When Mr. Dugan stepped into China many years ago, you can bet he was surveilled and approached, even if he didn't realize it (and likewise when he came in close contact with a Chinese national in South Africa). Espionage 101. It never ends. Read KGB, The Inside Story, which was co-authored by a defector, about 800 pages. Our adversaries have bean counters of every stripe, including tracking people. He should have told his wife, NO, not doing it.
Up until recent years a lot of Cathay pilots were ex RAF, RAAF, RCAF etc living in Hong Kong. Difference between them and this Muppet was they weren't stupid and stayed in their lane and took the cash for flying A330s etc without exposing state secrets.
try carolina reaper
Nothing about the F-35 crash in New Mexico the other day?????????
The show airs every Monday night live. If it happened after that, it’ll have to wait until the next show.
i love this show! wombat is growing on me, his view is slightly different but always quality.
good show today. i seriously laughed, and thought.. cheers
I love Wombat; he brings great insight and beautiful rants to the channel. However, the shizat going on with China is not some political BS. The Chinese will tell you the tension between them and the US and our Pacific allies is because of bad behavior by the US, Australia, and the Philippines. Anyone with half a brain knows the source of the problems between the two sides is the result of frequent dangerous and provocative behavior by China over the years. Yet, maybe I don’t understand what Wombat was trying to say at the end of the discussion.
Will always err towards trust of law but this one is curious… On the eve of selling a property to fund his defence, he was stopped, why won’t they let this guy have due process?
All the Chinese, and everyone else, need to do is watch footage right here on youtube taken from in cockpit cameras.
I’m an Aussie and I love you guys, you’re so cool in your discussions.
Keep up the good work. 😆😆
It's a little bit of both, training the adversary AND hyperbole of what was trained
Why would they call it "secret intel" and then tell everyone what that intel was? 🙃
What about him and his whole family moving to China??!!! WTF
What, he hit someone in the head with a boomerang or something?😂
Oh boy
Team Gonky. 60 Minutes is nonsense propaganda.
Mover, did you make the title of this video "Ex Marine Fighter Pilot"? Shame on you!
Nope. Gonky runs the show here. He does all the thumbnails, titles, and uploads. I just comment every now and then. -Mover
Whole thing stinks of a stitch up.
12yrs later? WTF is that all about and as the panel stated, what could he have done to justify going after him 12yrs later, let alone being a harrier pilot, WTF! Our government is so out of control!
Yep, im a former marine too lol. Things my wife will never day about me lmao.
12 years ago is when he met his Chinese partner, since arrested in the U.S.