I have been playing board games for over 50 years. Yep got my first one in the 1960s. There were new and exciting things back then, and there are still new and exciting things today. I have seen all the major big things in gaming over the years, and I still get excited with some of the games that come out. I am selective, look for gems no matter how old, and know what makes a good game (for me). My extended family of kids and grandkids, all play boardgames, and the excitement has not diminished.
My Nan always had time for a game, we would play old maid, marbles, monopoly, chess you name it!! Now, for context she was born in 1919, so modern board games wasn't quite there when she was sharing her time with me. She is still with us, but your comment has highlighted just how much fun it was to play with her and has brought back some rather nice memories.
Board games are no different from any other entertainment medium, like movies, video games, music, etc. There's a handful of concepts/mechanics/situations/beats mixed up in different combinations to create the product. What carries this limited amount of options is theme and the way in which they are presented. Nothing is truly original anymore(or very rarely so). The trick is to not become jaded and enjoy the "thing" for what it is in a way that appeals to you. Board games aren't getting old, no more than film and music.
There is a lot about this post which I agree and disagree with at the same time. I think board games are still in a state where something genunuely new can be made, that it doesn't have to be influenced by past design or be a remixed or refinement. Innovation is difficult, though, because board games have some soft constraints about what works and what doesn't by its very nature, both in terms of what can be enjoyed as a game by a table and what is practical to manufacture. The trick is to not become jaded, you say, and it is so true. But also... being jaded is the very heart of the problem, for those that it applies to.
I just want to stop by and say this was the most professional comment and reply I’ve seen where someone agrees and disagrees. Words matter, and you both covered both sides well. 🙏🏼💯
Frankly, I could have worded it better (but such is life in the realm of youtube comments). Thank you for stopping by. Compliments on the internet are rare and much appreciated.
@@stenolebrretzen675 Perfectly valid counterpoint to my comment, and I don't disagree with you. My comment was more a blanket statement than anything. There's still plenty of new ground to cover, and I think that the integration of apps is making that more-so now than ever before. For me personally, I don't care if a game isn't innovative with its mechanics, provided it does those mechanics solidly. It's the theme for me that will carry it :)
I am a sucker for innovation and novelty. Primarily because I love the learning process. The weirder the game is, the more learning content there is. Admittedly, not all experimental designs are a success. And not all successes are experimental designs.
Brandon Sanderson in one of his lectures mentioned that creativity isn’t necessarily about coming up with something new. The thing is, everything has been done before. Even things that are “new” are built on ideas you found elsewhere. Even so, Sanderson says that the essence of creativity is about combining and spinning those ideas in new ways. That process can be transformative and can truly create something new. For example he came up with Mistborn because he likes heists and hard magic fantasy. Those had been done before but by combining them he managed to create something truly incredible and novel.
The only troubling trend I see are the number of KS "bells and whistles" games; huge boxes with huge piles of things. I don't the need to spend another $100+ for more minis, too many decks of cards and a huge play area. And it's less about what these games are doing with design and story and more about the compounding fatigue these massive up-front investments place on those in the hobby. In regards to repeating ideas in board games, I highly recommend you watch the Kirby Ferguson documentary Everything Is a Remix (available on his YT channel). It's not specifically about any one thing but about creativity in general, as applied to all manner of media. Relevant and worth the 30 min watch.
I so wish many of these bellwhistle (okay, let's be honest: plastic mini flood) games were standee based. So much shelf space could be saved, and they'd be way cheaper, both in general cost and in shipping. Primal looks great, sure, but the same game with standees would be so much easier to store, mail, and generally handle.
This is why I'm a narrative/theme gamer -- board games as a medium can't get old to me because I'm in search of board games that have something to *say*, and as long as human beings keep having ideas there will always be new things to say. This coming year, ISS Vanguard is new for all of us, and Pax Pamir 2e which I just bought is new to me. Both will make me think and feel new things I haven't experienced before, ideas about life and purpose and power and exploration and control and humanity, the same way a novel or a book would, not just the vague idea of "hmm, that was/wasn't a fun puzzle" -- or at least that's my hope. I just tried Inhuman Conditions for the first time -- my own personal Voight-Kampff test! Board games will get old to me only if and when I stop seeking out the people using the medium to produce new human experiences.
I tend to go there too. I'm from the batch of the pandemic new boardgamers and it becomes so repetitives from games to games. Now I'm like: Give me something to disturb me. A story, something deeper than place a worker here if you have that and when you have 3 workers there you have this. Thanks.
My students keep them new, never thought the constant influx of new students picking games, watching you and others talk and play the games and them actually wanting to get their homework completed to get a game in keeps them fresh and fun for me. Ark nova set up ready to go for tomorrow, big jump for some coming from cascadia to this.
As you say there is no difference to the other media - we're in the glut phase: board games are getting popular enough that a lot of people are getting on board. For the indies that means there is a good opportunity, but they are likely to get lost in the flood. Innovation is their key - they need to stand out in some way, but they do need some iteration so that customers understand what is being offered easier. The big guys are making money off iteration, so try to avoid much innovation and thus minimise the risk of a flop. And the ones in the middle try to float between both, but a single flop can spell disaster for them. Any company with shares is also less-likely to innovate: a flop can be a problem for any company, but if it hits the bottom line it can trigger a sell-off by shareholders, which hurts the bottom line even more. As such companies that have floated on the stock market are even less likely to innovate.
It's the experience from the game that makes a game great! The art, the story, the presentation, the challenge, the struggle, the puzzle, the people we play with, the mechanics, etc all contribute to the final experience :)
My last few game purchases: Torres (1999), Concordia (2013), Calimala (2017), The King is Dead (Originally 2007) and Lorenzo il Magnifico (2016) Old games are just better games. I haven't seen a game come out in the last 2-3 years that interests me at all
Great talk, Alex. You touched on a lot of points that I’m passionate about as a designer and a recent enthusiast in the board game space. We humans have an inherent desire to create and are innately novelty seeking - such a great basis for consumer culture, no? I love the variation in board games, especially the way that games are becoming both better designed (aesthetically) but also more varied in their look and feel. While mechanisms may not change as much, it is great to see the increasing sophistication and variety of themes and designs. The same game could easily be implemented in dozens of combinations of themes and aesthetics to appeal to a variety of people. There is an obscure concept in archaeology that I like, it’s called Pattern Exhaustion. It’s the idea that cultures die off when they are no longer creating new patterns in the objects they create and instead are just rehashing the same thing. So, cheers to new patterns and variations!
Point of the board games was simply social activity that didn’t care about your nationality, race, religion etc but just get together with people and enjoy the activity while actually socializing too. But because of few reasons, socialization took back seat so it lost its major thing 1- Covid, after covid it literally took out the best reason to play games. 2- people more worried about board then meeting each other. Rules that focuses more on playing games and stopping socializing is also hindering its growth 3- online board gaming becoming bigger thing. Covid s another hit I think because in last 2 years ppl play much less with direct human made the board gaming less interesting. There is no excitement meeting new ppl, teaching new games. Getting together for special events etc.
Maybe the next thing will be something like table sized tablets. Allowing the players to use... (Sorry stopped in mid edit.) Some components that interact or no components going completely digital. This will lower costs, eliminate a lot of setup, & the largest expense will be the tablet table. Some are already headed this way with BGA.
Great thought to link to “everything is a remix”. In particular the point made in part 2, which is “when we consume, we want more of the same but different, and when we create we create more of the same but different”. I think it is apt to our board game culture as well, both in the hobbyist world and the mass market world.
Being original is quite a tough challenge. Of all the millions of books, movies etc, there are 'reported' only 7 original type of stories. Overcoming the Monster Rags to Riches The Quest Voyage and Return Rebirth Comedy Tragedy It's just about being entertained. And board games do entertain us.
One thing Wingspan brought that I don’t really see in many ( if any) other games is the diminishing action cubes as they’re used for score markers between rounds.
Great perspective! I love these thought videos. It reminds me of my days as a Religion and Philosophy major in my undergrad days sitting around in the dorm talking about random things.
I’d say for me board games aren’t getting old because they offer something other things cannot a great social experience in person, i am also fairly new to board games though and most of my group is kinda of just enjoying going through all the old games and finding the ones we like and maybe better more streamlined versions. So unless I somehow manage to go through thousands of board games there will always be a level of novelty to them
There are more video games than just the triple A titles. Here's just a tiny list of examples of great games that are *not* doing the same thing again and again: Return of the Obra Dinn, Pathologic 2, The Witness, Outer Wilds, Zachtronics games, Baba Is You, Rain World, Invisible Inc. If you're a fan of a medium don't just look at the biggest titles with the biggest budgets and marketing. The way you described video games sounded depressing. I believe that there's a very long road ahead for video games to explore new things never explored before. It's a young medium. Video games are not really stories or at least plot is not the thing they're the best at. Interacting with complex systems is what makes video games special. They're miniature universes.
Theme, can make a big difference. Still waiting for you to play War of the ring: Long...yes, but gives you a overwhelmingly epic feeling like when the main character of a movie dies and the rising tension of I might just be able to pull it off. I would love to see you play this with Roy Cannaday. Maybe one day, fingers crossed.
Of all the videos you publish, this is my favorite the “Fireside Chat with Alex” is always interesting, and your perspective is almost always insightful - except when they don't line up with mine. 😉 Keep it up. I hope that videos like this do well enough to keep you making them.
Alex have you considered doing a podcast of your show? I find these discussion topics would be great listening while on the road. Keep up the good work!
Games are like dishes. Some dishes bring new ingredients to the table. But most amazing dishes are just perfected combinations of well known ingredients/processes. The most accomplished chefs are not necessarily trying to bring new ingredients, reinventing a classic is as daunting a task as creating novelty.
I once worked with a Hollywood producer on an educational economics video series (name withheld for privacy). He said there are only two stories in the world: (1) Boy/girl comes to town/arrives at destination/gets married/gets something/returns from a journey and what happens next, and boy/girl leaves town/loses something/goes on a journey, and what happens next. For example, you can call Exodus/Pesach a leaves Egypt twist, perhaps combined with a "goes on journey", and Har Sinai as a gets something/arrives at destination story.
I think that while there is rarely a new mechanic there are still new themes combined with those mechanics with new art. And new more refined gameplay and setup that still allows me to feel a sense of discovery but even if that aspect of the hobby was gone for me I would still enjoy it.
This is why we made Beyond Humanity: Colonies. We wanted to make our own dream game, something that no game designer could create. And that’s what the other side to the solution is. As you mentioned, one side to “originality” is remixing with new passion and interest/direction/theme. The other aspect of originality is outsiders; those that enter the arena with vastly different skill sets and abilities. The same has been seen in film/television for decades, with acclaimed directors coming from seemingly nowhere. Thankfully there is always something to be said for finding a rehash that sparks your interest due to art, theming, or some other feature that connects with a niche appreciation inside you. No person will play every game or read every book, or watch every film. But they were never supposed to. You just need to find what appeals to you. Brilliant video yet again! And great outside references; the two music exploration videos mentioned are excellent thought pieces we’ve seen many times.
As a longtime fan of video games, who only just got into board games last year, there were so many things I hadn't experienced before. While many of you have probably played Seven Wonders, Splendor, Azul, Everdell and Terraforming Mars and games similar to them several times, I'm just getting into these experiences and not only are the games fun to play, but there's an aspect of ownership with board games that I sadly find increasingly lacking in video games. On the video games side of things, I mostly agree as far as mainstream games go, but while I don't play those FPS games mentioned as an example, I keep going back to Fire Emblem for the cast of characters, how they interact and figuring out which of them I'll use in my party. And I still find old games I haven't played yet, as well as indie and niche games.
People burn out on hobbies and/or lose interest. You take a break and see if you get called back in after a while. This is true of all hobbies not just board games.
I would argue that games don't have to be completely new to be amazing. You can take concepts that already exist and present them in a new way that reaches a new audience. In other words, games are more than the individual mechanisms. So you truly can create an infinite number of worker placement games and have them continue to be relevant. Toss in the social experience that is specific to a given set of people and you're good to go. (FYI, Netflix has been around since 1997, so it has been around for decades ;) )
Also, I think you are presenting a very limited definition of "new". You've restricted yourself to only considering low-level mechanisms in your definition. By that way of thinking, you could probably claim that none of these games are new because they are all based on cardboard.
As long as games continue to sit a family or friends around a table for a brawl, laughter, or just genuine fun, board games will always have a special place. Changing up the game theme or genre to match the mood keeps most folks engaged.
I have been pretty tuned out the last few months. I feel like I've just been getting bombarded with all these games that are the same thing with a different spin. Half of them are unfinished. The last 4 months or so I've only been playing marvel champions and that's barely a board game. Mostly just feel guilty I'm not playing these kickstarters I've bought
There's something about games that bring familiar mechanics, they feel cozy, easier to play (and if you slap an IP on it then it somehow makes them even more desirable!). Innovative games are also only innovative for awhile anyways. So the key is to bring small innovations that make you feel at ease with your games, not overwhelmed. I am amazed at the subtle innovations on many new games I play. Even Gloomhaven JOTL, you mentioned the book with the maps, yes Stuffed Fables did it before, but JOTL added the 3rd page that you slide next to the book to grow the map, brilliant! Anno1800 has this fascinating trading aspect, for me it's really what makes the game stand out because it brings such an interesting dynamic to an otherwise straightforward card/tile building game. Entirely new mechanics are rare (Azul with its tile selection system comes to my mind because it's so elegant).
I tend to buy games like I do books and movies: art/production design and theme, followed closely by storyline and mechanics. There is not a lot that I've seen come out that is actually outstandingly innovative - most is really just derivative which can still be great and quite engaging. To me, it almost always comes down to the expression of the people that are involved in a production that adds uniqueness and interest.
To me they sound and look very repetitive, the bulk of them at least. Way too much horror, ugly creatures, dungeon crawls. Glad newer games art is refreshing older games or creating new ones with more brilliant palette, not your old 80's school book type of art, and also adding diversity to the characters. I do dislike that many games only cater to those with tons of cash though. Way too many $150 + $50 shipping (to Canada at least) games that won't make retail just because they are deluxe. Still, like you said, plenty coming out but finding a really good one takes time :)
Casting shadows will be a fun time. Love dice rolling fighters like King of Tokyo and Dice Throne. Love skirmish games like unmatched and summoner wars. And I LOVE the Exceed mechanic in... Well... Exceed. I'm stoked for one game with all these rolled together.
You lost me when you started going through the individual games. Being dismissive of iterations and developments as not being revolutionary is problematic. There are likely less successful games that introduce unique aspects. It's like criticizing Marvel movies for not providing an original concept. I understand the point you're trying to make, but you're just not going to see revolutionary changes often in the main stream titles this industry (or most entertainment industries). If you're interested in that, you'll likely need to dig deep into more obscure markets.
There's definitely stagnation in the hobby, I've noticed it for a while now; too many games feel like the same thing with a new coat of paint. I've been trying to focus on the games I already know I like and focus on keeping up with them (expansions, promos and such), and watching out for games that stand out to me for one reason or another. This has saved me a ton of money and KS anticipation headache, as I see a plethora of games that look at least somewhat interesting, but between storage space, price point, and waiting a year+ to get it, I've been backing less and less KS games and doing the same for games published the traditional way. Edit: The video game market is even worse. So many 'phone it in' games vs. the early days of passion for games, especially in the 'AAA" industry. The indie scene is giving us better and more fun games than the manufactured blandness that the big companies keep churning out, and they're cheaper to boot! Edit again: I plead the 5th on Steam sales and my library of games!
Some concepts are repeated in board games, but that doesn't mean that it's the same. Different twists, combinations, themes and so on make it different. Also, everybody can and should decide for themselves which games they choose. There is also some enjoyment in searching and filtering through the existing board games in search for the 'perfect' one or rather the few good ones for oneself. Will innovation in board games hit a ceiling some day? I don't know, probably. I would not call board games a medium. Fact is that the board game market is overflowing for years. That's not healthy. Not sure how publishers of bad games can hold it up. And it is a big problem that most big crowdfunding games are just overpriced cash-grabs to rip money off rich people.
That's why I only buy retail, and apply filters what theme i want. Example, I have the "Redwall" set, which is Root, Everdell, Mouse Guard Rpg, Here to slay. Boardgames I want because of theme : Mythic Battles (Ragnarok/ Pantheon/ Egypt), tainted grail kings of ruin, Nemesis, Scythe, Lords of the chords. But is the combination of theme and mechanics what makes want to have the game.
Board games are maturing as a medium. You have a point if you state that you will have the triple-A blockbusters and some indie stuff, where the anonymous middle gets forgotten pretty quickly. I can’t count the number of games that I’ve sold in recent years after a single play because it didn’t stand out enough compared to the rest of my collection. The trick is to identify that new game that will either be an added value to your collection or will replace something else. But for someone who’s new to the hobby, they just start with what is hot now and what I see as an average remake of a classic I own, can be regarded as exciting by a new gamer and become a classic for them.
Original stories for movies are rare these days. Just look at the top 100 movies over the past 5 years. How many of those are either: 1) Remake/reboot 2) Sequels 3) Adaptations from other media (novel, comic, game) and 4) Spin-offs. There's also a similar trend in board games.
Growing up we were way into buying/collecting music than we are now... since well now we have a subscription service and access to 20-30 million titles but that said I recall comparing my pop vs Jazz/Classical selection experience and I realized that classical music was all about various recordings and interpretations of the same music where as pop music was original but generally not covers of other's work due to royalties and so forth. Essentially the number of any particular classic work seemed nearly unlimited compared to a single album choice for a pop artist. Not sure how I can relate this to board games but I guess I would compare the choice of the standard card deck to Classical Music in that we can buy this "game system" aka 52 cards with different back art for next to nothing or we can buy these new game system titles. To some degree the same happened to Monopoly, Chess, (not so much checkers) in the various versions. Axis and Allies hit the version explosion after a relatively stable hot period. Squad Leader also hit the moon in terms of expansions. It is still relatively shocking just how many copies of Squad Leader were sold back in its day. We see a "hot" kickstarter/gamefound and 10-25k backers yet Avalon Hill games that were popular sold millions. Back then though there were VERY few board games to purchase so now we are absolutely overwhelmed with new choices. Also I think what we saw to computer games from the early 8 to 16 bit years to the modern multi-million productions on Xbox or PS systems that may well have run into 30+ million to produce. Perhaps vast improvements in the "Metaverse" will actually finally start carving more into the physical board game market. A picture is worth a thousand words, a movie is worth a thousand pictures and a board game is worth a thousand movies - due to the interactive/agency of participation?
I can’t say that there’s any indicator that boardgame production would or could slow down. I think more what we will see slowing down is massive game collections.
This applies to all of life, you can travel round the world, an amazing experience, but eventually, a mountain is a mountain, a lake a lake, its the same. I think that games that really try something new, dont always equal success. However there are still games that come out with twists to mechanics. Pesronally Mysthea seems quite different. Interesting topic though and a great video Alex.2👍
The short, board games are renewable resources. Add in that there will always be a new generation that has never played Checkers and Spades or Viticulture and Gloomhaven, then, factor in the human ingenuity...we haven't reached the pinnacle just yet :D And for your brother, Alex, perhaps he needs to focus more on the social experience and not just what the game is trying to conjure up.
I think the market is similar to those other media like you say but out of them, board games are the least passive. They take more time to learn, to set up, to clean up. So I think given an equal time investment most of us will go through fewer board games than books, movies, songs, etc. And that’s ok. I think it’s good to try out new ones on a regular basis. It’s a lot of fun. But even more than books, movies, songs, I think there’s a lot of value in going back to the games you already know and love. It’s all about finding the balance that keeps things fun without wearing you out.
I haven't played new games enough to explore all the possibilities, so I'm not at all to that burnt out point. I was watching a dice tower, and they we're comparing one game to another with similar mechanics and said it's not worth it because it's very similar, but someone like me wouldn't know or care if that was the case as long as the game was fun. I've gotten there with video games and movies and have been cutting back because I've just done it so much it gets repetitive, but with cutting back and picking quality video games and movies those hobbies are still amazing.
If you are in to a certain thing, you just want more of it, even if it is not truly different from what you already have,that’s the unfortunate reality of human kind. So although you are correct, it will never change. On a different note, I’d love to see a video for noobs, with your favorite games on different mechanics, taking into account price/performance. Those choices would probably favor older games and be great for people like me trying to build out their collection while trying to figure what they truly enjoy in the hobby.
I've been feeling this a lot lately. The cult of the new is turning into mental exhaustion. And after 10s to 100s of different games played, it is truly rare for one to wow me. I know the ones I already love and I really just want to play them more. I wish everyone else would do the same. For anyone entering the hobby that would like to avoid the burnout, I would say the following: Theme matters. Production matters. Pick a few games that are known to be rated well, produced well, and that cover themes that you and your friends are most interested in. And then stop buying games. Play those games to death. It's far better than the alternative, trust me.
To me it boils down to this. Am I having fun? I don't care if Ark Nova is old/new, I'm having a ton of fun. I don't spend time comparing to other card driven games. Same with Arnak. It's fun. We live in the golden age of board games, board games are not getting old, the mechanics and ides might get old but they don't make these new games less fun.
I think there are alot of different game types. When I buy a new car I really just want an upgraded version of what I already have. That sounds good to me. I get a car that I know I already like but now upgraded with improvements. Even slight improvements is still nice to have. More of what I already like is great.
The best way to combat the overconsumption is to "Out of sight, Out of mind" the subject. Its not good for the people trying to prosper in the business but its the only way to stop buying the "same" products.
Burncycle is pretty different/new... honestly everything Chip Theory does is pretty new/unique. But I don't get a bunch of new stuff in part because of this, actually. Once I have games that I love that scratch an itch, I have much less incentive to buy new ones. Story games being a bit of a different beast. That's more due to not having time to play all the story games I already have I will say that in many games small tweaks to mechanics do make a huge difference. Gaia Project vs Tera Mystica. 1830 vs 1882 vs 18Chesapeake vs 1889. But that's generally only the case for the super tight designs where small tweaks have huge ramifications.
I tend to buy different games with different mechanism and 4-5 games per year.I own around 20 board games til now.i dont want to buy things i wont play.
I have more fun with miniture agnostic skirmish games lately. After customizing my own minis, even after a new game comes out I can still use my home made models. And just download as new pdf or whatever.
Great topic! I think that there’s only so many ways that you can create a boardgame. There’s only so many different techniques you can use when designing that yes some games do use the same mechanics. But the thing about boardgames and the reason I love them is because you’re supposed to use your imagination. And a good game Will capture your imagination and make you feel like you are inside the game. A game I sleeping gods, Makes you feel like you’re in that land sailing around. Robinson Crusoe, makes you feel like you are truly surviving on an island on your own. But if you just look at the game in general they’re have mechanics that are used in other games. What from the mag point of view and a story telling point of view that’s where games differ. I always saw the board game as a book except every time you play it it has a different ending.
As my collection grows it gets harder for me games to enter the collection as the game needs to add something unique / new to me or it needs to be much better than one of the classics in order to replace another. Simple as that for me. :)
The games that are the most refined/optimized board games will end up being the best e.g. like bloodrage I am looking forward to a new area control game that dethrones bloodrage
Great video. Cool shirt. The importance of these review videos can be crucial. I just bought termite towers and halfway through play I put it away unsatisfied. Blinded by the illustrations and visuals wish there was a review on it Heard people got great huals from board game co used games. Got me interested
Like movies, books, tv shows or videogames...nothing is new when you shove it into a category (fiction, non-fiction, horror, action,, romance...). The thing that is new is not the destination or the category it fits in but the journey used to get there. Entertainment doesn't accomplish "new" things often, they just do them better.
Game experiences depend on the social group and how that particular play went. I’d like to see if you could make a game unique. You could say the same thing with music rehashing itself; every art does this. There are only so many mechanisms, music note combinations, art styles etc. enjoy what you have and so what if it’s just a difference in the use of mechanisms, it’s about the experience you have.
Not totally relevant to the whole video but something you mentioned. Games like Arnak/Dune aren't doing anything new, BUT the new trend seems to be to take multiple mechanisms people enjoy and slap them together instead of basing the entire game around 1 main mechanism.
I do think there has to be some limit. The people in the hobby are going to run out of shelf space, and have too many games filling the same niche. For me, I don’t really need any more heavy euros, miniature skirmish games, campaign narrative games. Hell even a mid weight euro needs to be something special.
I see the problem as follows: There is too much rush to get the money. Games tend to have some good aspects and then from few to many not so great aspects (mostly mechanics). I have been very weary to get new games from the store/crowd funding as they tend to be more on the mediocre "kinda fun but not quite there" offerings. Many games being published would actually benefit alot from just more time on designing. Other thing that bores me (and boring is a big no no) is the theming choises (generic fantasy should go away for few years). There does not seem to be interest in taking risks and as result most games tend to be flavourless, colourless and shapeless -> boring. What i mean is i want a game (sometimes) to be like "This war of mine". Something that has identity.
Interesting you mention Unsettled, I finally played it for the first time today (solo). It was a fun experience but at the same time it felt very mechanical to me. Now, that's not a bad thing since I enjoy the mechanics but at the same time I feel like it's an interesting example of a game where the theme is strong...but it doesn't come through much with the actual mechanics of the game. So yeah, I enjoyed it but at the same time wished there was a closer meshing of the themes and mechanics.
Interesting conversation, I will say on the subject of buying new games, as I have moved further along in my time in the hobby I find that I purchase fewer and fewer games each year. 10 years in the hobby and I have acquired around 300 board games. I have only sold or traded maybe 15-20 games in that time period I tend to keep a game once I buy it. Within that first year or two my collection quickly jumped to nearly 100 games but as time passes the number of new games each year dwindled. At this point I buy less then 10 new games a year, which for some might still be a lot but for me its a huge reduction and I have feeling that number may continue to decline. I have noticed that I am less impulsive with purchases now. I tend to research and play games before buying them and often will purchased a game 1-2 years after its release. You mentioned Ark Nova a game I have played a couple times now and will most likely add to my collection at some point but in the pass might have just purchased it based on the hype alone. Its also worth pointing out that I don't have a shelf of shame, I am pretty big on playing all the games i purchase as they come in. I currently only have a single unplayed game, but its a narrative campign and will be starting it the next couple weeks as soon as we wind down the current game we are playing.
I feel that about not just board games but a lot of entertainment in general (video games/tv shows..). Once in a while something will come out that will still take me by surprise and consume all my time (Elden Ring for video games recently) but I find that I mostly gravitate towards existing things that I know are good. For board games that would be TMB, Spirit Island or Marvel Champions for solo gaming for example. Just these three games could give me more gameplay than I have time for but I still get something new once in a while, just not as much as before.
Ok. So I've been feeling a little disenchanted with the hobby lately. Not with actually playing the games. Just with getting excited for new releases. That being said, new innovative ideas are being concocted all of the time. There are more designers bringing more ideas to the table than ever before. Is the market getting oversaturated? I think so. But obviously I'm wrong because there still seems to be enough dollars/interest to support all of these new projects. But for a jaded vet like me (apparently) it is harder for me to get excited than it used to be.
@@BoardGameCo I have three games releasing this year that I'm excited about. The rest are all expansions to things I already own and love. But that's good for my budget.
I'm more on a different side. I prefer my game to be a beige heavy euro. For me, I generally want to have a decent experience (component wise, theme so-so), but the beauty lies in the inner complexity and large amount of different strategies that can be more or less viable, depending on the situation. I don't need new as in the new mechanism, I need new as in the new ways I can play the same game in order to find some new aspects of it. That's why I want my heavy euro designers to experiment with subgenres more than themes, story, components or the genre. As far as I'm concerned, one designer can do worker placement all his/her life (like Lacerda), if they make the underlying mechanism with lots of variety, 20 different viable strategies I'm all in. That's why sometimes I have issue with Rosenberg, because he tends to reskin his games. When he innovates, he does some brilliant games. Innovation comes from inner complexity (not 30 pages rulebook), not minis or storybook.
Looks like you set off a firestorm of discussion. I've become way more selective of crowdfunding, because there are so many copy-cat games. I don't worry about a repeated mechanic, as much as theme, playability, art, etc. I have way too many miniature games, so unless something is unique or speaks to me, then forget it. There is simply too many games to play and collect, and I am running out of space for those games I thought I really wanted to keep.
Variety is the spice of life right? All that is new was old at some point and that's ok. Better art, better graphic design, better understanding of game mechanics, each year of games builds on years past and that's a good thing. I restrict my library to 45 games. My hope is to find my perfect 45 and then never buy another one. But I'll never complete it, because the new variations on my old favorites always get me, and that's so enjoyable to see designers take what I love and give me a new variation, a new way to love the same old mechanics that speak to me.
I think that Teburu system has the potential to completely revolutionize boardgames and provide huge supply of games with completely new mechanics, which were not possible previously - actual hidden movements, very complicated mechanics of enemies that you have to learn through playing, exploration of the board and finding hidden parts of the map, replacing rolling dice as a test for solving some puzzle with actual puzzles to solve on the map and which can change next time for unlimited playability, I honestly feel like possibilities are endless
But in doing so board games as a whole would become so much less accessible (and portable), basically creating just a worse videogame. I cannot imagine a whacky, overcrowded game night with something like that
@@Maspital I mean, aren't most of the crowd-funded games not suitable for whacky overcrowded evening? I can't imagine playing gloomhaven, or any more complex game in overcrowded setup. And I'm not saying anything would be replaced, just in the topic of innovation in board games, and the feeling that everything feels too similar to each other if it comes to newly developed games, then I think The Bad Karmas and Teburu in general significantly stand out, as it opens up completely unexplored area of digitalized boardgames, which offer much more flexibility in terms of mechanics, ergo: this will be something completely new and unexplored
There are only so many game mechanics that you can pull from. So of course you are just going to keep getting overlap. The difference is how those mechanics are used together and the theme of the game.
Interesting thought. Many of us end up becoming more picky about what games we get. I know I have cooled on kickstarters lately. Even with top notch publishers. Wayfarers of the South Tigris is my first Shem Game that I'm skipping in a long time.
I agree to an extent, the problem is the same can be said for party games, dungeon crawlers, area control... They all share certain notes that make most of them feel similar
Aeon's End. I recently discovered that game and it is so different yet amazing. Of course now that has been copied by Astro knights. Which, to credit, is made by the same creators.
I have had similar feelings about board games, same mechanic just repeated. This is due to what I consider a big collection, cost of new games, and less time to play. Considering getting rid of games also adds to this dilemma. I've had a lot of hobbies die just from friends moving on to other interests as well. I do think different themes, interesting art, and new cultural influences (three tale....thracian, victim....Thai) keep things interesting. I agree alot of movies and video games are the same way. But also most of the time it's not about the mechanics of the game, movie, or even book but the experience that we have...feeling like we are making the decisions that effect the outcome of a game, or even working towards an outcome that we know is coming but the experience getting there. I think that's what matters...games that keep that experience time and again get played so we can feel those moments...then we explore new games to enhance or add to that. Live like a cowboy in western legends, escape a doomed spaceship in nemesis, just survive in dead of winter....can u do it and the adventure getting there. Thanks for the video Alex.
I have been playing board games for over 50 years. Yep got my first one in the 1960s. There were new and exciting things back then, and there are still new and exciting things today. I have seen all the major big things in gaming over the years, and I still get excited with some of the games that come out. I am selective, look for gems no matter how old, and know what makes a good game (for me). My extended family of kids and grandkids, all play boardgames, and the excitement has not diminished.
My Nan always had time for a game, we would play old maid, marbles, monopoly, chess you name it!! Now, for context she was born in 1919, so modern board games wasn't quite there when she was sharing her time with me. She is still with us, but your comment has highlighted just how much fun it was to play with her and has brought back some rather nice memories.
Board games are no different from any other entertainment medium, like movies, video games, music, etc. There's a handful of concepts/mechanics/situations/beats mixed up in different combinations to create the product. What carries this limited amount of options is theme and the way in which they are presented. Nothing is truly original anymore(or very rarely so). The trick is to not become jaded and enjoy the "thing" for what it is in a way that appeals to you. Board games aren't getting old, no more than film and music.
There is a lot about this post which I agree and disagree with at the same time. I think board games are still in a state where something genunuely new can be made, that it doesn't have to be influenced by past design or be a remixed or refinement. Innovation is difficult, though, because board games have some soft constraints about what works and what doesn't by its very nature, both in terms of what can be enjoyed as a game by a table and what is practical to manufacture. The trick is to not become jaded, you say, and it is so true. But also... being jaded is the very heart of the problem, for those that it applies to.
I just want to stop by and say this was the most professional comment and reply I’ve seen where someone agrees and disagrees. Words matter, and you both covered both sides well. 🙏🏼💯
Frankly, I could have worded it better (but such is life in the realm of youtube comments). Thank you for stopping by. Compliments on the internet are rare and much appreciated.
@@stenolebrretzen675 Perfectly valid counterpoint to my comment, and I don't disagree with you. My comment was more a blanket statement than anything. There's still plenty of new ground to cover, and I think that the integration of apps is making that more-so now than ever before. For me personally, I don't care if a game isn't innovative with its mechanics, provided it does those mechanics solidly. It's the theme for me that will carry it :)
I am a sucker for innovation and novelty. Primarily because I love the learning process. The weirder the game is, the more learning content there is. Admittedly, not all experimental designs are a success. And not all successes are experimental designs.
I'm at a point where I am more interested in playing what I have than acquiring more games.
Brandon Sanderson in one of his lectures mentioned that creativity isn’t necessarily about coming up with something new. The thing is, everything has been done before. Even things that are “new” are built on ideas you found elsewhere.
Even so, Sanderson says that the essence of creativity is about combining and spinning those ideas in new ways. That process can be transformative and can truly create something new.
For example he came up with Mistborn because he likes heists and hard magic fantasy. Those had been done before but by combining them he managed to create something truly incredible and novel.
Excellent point. Agree completely and Sanderson has managed better than most to reimagine the cliched tropes of the fantasy genre.
wow, thats a good point of view
The only troubling trend I see are the number of KS "bells and whistles" games; huge boxes with huge piles of things. I don't the need to spend another $100+ for more minis, too many decks of cards and a huge play area. And it's less about what these games are doing with design and story and more about the compounding fatigue these massive up-front investments place on those in the hobby.
In regards to repeating ideas in board games, I highly recommend you watch the Kirby Ferguson documentary Everything Is a Remix (available on his YT channel). It's not specifically about any one thing but about creativity in general, as applied to all manner of media. Relevant and worth the 30 min watch.
I so wish many of these bellwhistle (okay, let's be honest: plastic mini flood) games were standee based. So much shelf space could be saved, and they'd be way cheaper, both in general cost and in shipping. Primal looks great, sure, but the same game with standees would be so much easier to store, mail, and generally handle.
This is why I'm a narrative/theme gamer -- board games as a medium can't get old to me because I'm in search of board games that have something to *say*, and as long as human beings keep having ideas there will always be new things to say. This coming year, ISS Vanguard is new for all of us, and Pax Pamir 2e which I just bought is new to me. Both will make me think and feel new things I haven't experienced before, ideas about life and purpose and power and exploration and control and humanity, the same way a novel or a book would, not just the vague idea of "hmm, that was/wasn't a fun puzzle" -- or at least that's my hope. I just tried Inhuman Conditions for the first time -- my own personal Voight-Kampff test! Board games will get old to me only if and when I stop seeking out the people using the medium to produce new human experiences.
I tend to go there too. I'm from the batch of the pandemic new boardgamers and it becomes so repetitives from games to games. Now I'm like: Give me something to disturb me. A story, something deeper than place a worker here if you have that and when you have 3 workers there you have this. Thanks.
My students keep them new, never thought the constant influx of new students picking games, watching you and others talk and play the games and them actually wanting to get their homework completed to get a game in keeps them fresh and fun for me.
Ark nova set up ready to go for tomorrow, big jump for some coming from cascadia to this.
As you say there is no difference to the other media - we're in the glut phase: board games are getting popular enough that a lot of people are getting on board. For the indies that means there is a good opportunity, but they are likely to get lost in the flood. Innovation is their key - they need to stand out in some way, but they do need some iteration so that customers understand what is being offered easier. The big guys are making money off iteration, so try to avoid much innovation and thus minimise the risk of a flop. And the ones in the middle try to float between both, but a single flop can spell disaster for them. Any company with shares is also less-likely to innovate: a flop can be a problem for any company, but if it hits the bottom line it can trigger a sell-off by shareholders, which hurts the bottom line even more. As such companies that have floated on the stock market are even less likely to innovate.
It's the experience from the game that makes a game great!
The art, the story, the presentation, the challenge, the struggle, the puzzle, the people we play with, the mechanics, etc all contribute to the final experience :)
My last few game purchases: Torres (1999), Concordia (2013), Calimala (2017), The King is Dead (Originally 2007) and Lorenzo il Magnifico (2016)
Old games are just better games. I haven't seen a game come out in the last 2-3 years that interests me at all
Great talk, Alex. You touched on a lot of points that I’m passionate about as a designer and a recent enthusiast in the board game space. We humans have an inherent desire to create and are innately novelty seeking - such a great basis for consumer culture, no? I love the variation in board games, especially the way that games are becoming both better designed (aesthetically) but also more varied in their look and feel. While mechanisms may not change as much, it is great to see the increasing sophistication and variety of themes and designs. The same game could easily be implemented in dozens of combinations of themes and aesthetics to appeal to a variety of people. There is an obscure concept in archaeology that I like, it’s called Pattern Exhaustion. It’s the idea that cultures die off when they are no longer creating new patterns in the objects they create and instead are just rehashing the same thing. So, cheers to new patterns and variations!
Point of the board games was simply social activity that didn’t care about your nationality, race, religion etc but just get together with people and enjoy the activity while actually socializing too.
But because of few reasons, socialization took back seat so it lost its major thing
1- Covid, after covid it literally took out the best reason to play games.
2- people more worried about board then meeting each other. Rules that focuses more on playing games and stopping socializing is also hindering its growth
3- online board gaming becoming bigger thing. Covid s another hit
I think because in last 2 years ppl play much less with direct human made the board gaming less interesting. There is no excitement meeting new ppl, teaching new games. Getting together for special events etc.
Maybe the next thing will be something like table sized tablets. Allowing the players to use... (Sorry stopped in mid edit.) Some components that interact or no components going completely digital. This will lower costs, eliminate a lot of setup, & the largest expense will be the tablet table. Some are already headed this way with BGA.
Really loved the apathetic rapid reviews of the top ranked games of the last 3 years!
Great thought to link to “everything is a remix”. In particular the point made in part 2, which is “when we consume, we want more of the same but different, and when we create we create more of the same but different”. I think it is apt to our board game culture as well, both in the hobbyist world and the mass market world.
Being original is quite a tough challenge. Of all the millions of books, movies etc, there are 'reported' only 7 original type of stories.
Overcoming the Monster
Rags to Riches
The Quest
Voyage and Return
Rebirth
Comedy
Tragedy
It's just about being entertained. And board games do entertain us.
As always, I appreciate these types of videos. Keep it up.
appreciate the talk 😄 been questioning a lot of my consuming habits and 'gullibility or value' lately
One thing Wingspan brought that I don’t really see in many ( if any) other games is the diminishing action cubes as they’re used for score markers between rounds.
Great perspective! I love these thought videos. It reminds me of my days as a Religion and Philosophy major in my undergrad days sitting around in the dorm talking about random things.
I’d say for me board games aren’t getting old because they offer something other things cannot a great social experience in person, i am also fairly new to board games though and most of my group is kinda of just enjoying going through all the old games and finding the ones we like and maybe better more streamlined versions. So unless I somehow manage to go through thousands of board games there will always be a level of novelty to them
Agree there are so many games. Unless you are a board game channel who play games daily the rest of us will play every week or so if we are lucky.
There are more video games than just the triple A titles. Here's just a tiny list of examples of great games that are *not* doing the same thing again and again: Return of the Obra Dinn, Pathologic 2, The Witness, Outer Wilds, Zachtronics games, Baba Is You, Rain World, Invisible Inc. If you're a fan of a medium don't just look at the biggest titles with the biggest budgets and marketing.
The way you described video games sounded depressing. I believe that there's a very long road ahead for video games to explore new things never explored before. It's a young medium. Video games are not really stories or at least plot is not the thing they're the best at. Interacting with complex systems is what makes video games special. They're miniature universes.
Theme, can make a big difference. Still waiting for you to play War of the ring: Long...yes, but gives you a overwhelmingly epic feeling like when the main character of a movie dies and the rising tension of I might just be able to pull it off. I would love to see you play this with Roy Cannaday. Maybe one day, fingers crossed.
plenty of garbage games have great themes. And many excellent games have thin, if any theme
Of all the videos you publish, this is my favorite the “Fireside Chat with Alex” is always interesting, and your perspective is almost always insightful - except when they don't line up with mine. 😉
Keep it up. I hope that videos like this do well enough to keep you making them.
Alex have you considered doing a podcast of your show? I find these discussion topics would be great listening while on the road. Keep up the good work!
Games are like dishes. Some dishes bring new ingredients to the table. But most amazing dishes are just perfected combinations of well known ingredients/processes. The most accomplished chefs are not necessarily trying to bring new ingredients, reinventing a classic is as daunting a task as creating novelty.
Completely agreed
I once worked with a Hollywood producer on an educational economics video series (name withheld for privacy). He said there are only two stories in the world: (1) Boy/girl comes to town/arrives at destination/gets married/gets something/returns from a journey and what happens next, and boy/girl leaves town/loses something/goes on a journey, and what happens next. For example, you can call Exodus/Pesach a leaves Egypt twist, perhaps combined with a "goes on journey", and Har Sinai as a gets something/arrives at destination story.
I think that while there is rarely a new mechanic there are still new themes combined with those mechanics with new art. And new more refined gameplay and setup that still allows me to feel a sense of discovery but even if that aspect of the hobby was gone for me I would still enjoy it.
100% agreed
This is why we made Beyond Humanity: Colonies. We wanted to make our own dream game, something that no game designer could create. And that’s what the other side to the solution is. As you mentioned, one side to “originality” is remixing with new passion and interest/direction/theme. The other aspect of originality is outsiders; those that enter the arena with vastly different skill sets and abilities. The same has been seen in film/television for decades, with acclaimed directors coming from seemingly nowhere.
Thankfully there is always something to be said for finding a rehash that sparks your interest due to art, theming, or some other feature that connects with a niche appreciation inside you. No person will play every game or read every book, or watch every film. But they were never supposed to. You just need to find what appeals to you.
Brilliant video yet again! And great outside references; the two music exploration videos mentioned are excellent thought pieces we’ve seen many times.
It's not doing bad compared to other mediums. Videogaming feels 10x as stagnant
If you ignore the usual Ubisoft, EA, etc. crap, video games are absolutely amazing
As a longtime fan of video games, who only just got into board games last year, there were so many things I hadn't experienced before. While many of you have probably played Seven Wonders, Splendor, Azul, Everdell and Terraforming Mars and games similar to them several times, I'm just getting into these experiences and not only are the games fun to play, but there's an aspect of ownership with board games that I sadly find increasingly lacking in video games.
On the video games side of things, I mostly agree as far as mainstream games go, but while I don't play those FPS games mentioned as an example, I keep going back to Fire Emblem for the cast of characters, how they interact and figuring out which of them I'll use in my party.
And I still find old games I haven't played yet, as well as indie and niche games.
People burn out on hobbies and/or lose interest. You take a break and see if you get called back in after a while. This is true of all hobbies not just board games.
Yep, I was more just interested in the conversation about the nature of rehashing the same thing again and again
Yep...there's 28 new, different, innovative, unique, never-before-seen fantasy dungeon narrative-driven hand-management dice placement miniature TTRPG games crowdfunding right now.
Lol exactly
I would argue that games don't have to be completely new to be amazing. You can take concepts that already exist and present them in a new way that reaches a new audience. In other words, games are more than the individual mechanisms. So you truly can create an infinite number of worker placement games and have them continue to be relevant. Toss in the social experience that is specific to a given set of people and you're good to go. (FYI, Netflix has been around since 1997, so it has been around for decades ;) )
Also, I think you are presenting a very limited definition of "new". You've restricted yourself to only considering low-level mechanisms in your definition. By that way of thinking, you could probably claim that none of these games are new because they are all based on cardboard.
As long as games continue to sit a family or friends around a table for a brawl, laughter, or just genuine fun, board games will always have a special place. Changing up the game theme or genre to match the mood keeps most folks engaged.
I have been pretty tuned out the last few months. I feel like I've just been getting bombarded with all these games that are the same thing with a different spin. Half of them are unfinished. The last 4 months or so I've only been playing marvel champions and that's barely a board game. Mostly just feel guilty I'm not playing these kickstarters I've bought
There's something about games that bring familiar mechanics, they feel cozy, easier to play (and if you slap an IP on it then it somehow makes them even more desirable!). Innovative games are also only innovative for awhile anyways. So the key is to bring small innovations that make you feel at ease with your games, not overwhelmed. I am amazed at the subtle innovations on many new games I play. Even Gloomhaven JOTL, you mentioned the book with the maps, yes Stuffed Fables did it before, but JOTL added the 3rd page that you slide next to the book to grow the map, brilliant! Anno1800 has this fascinating trading aspect, for me it's really what makes the game stand out because it brings such an interesting dynamic to an otherwise straightforward card/tile building game. Entirely new mechanics are rare (Azul with its tile selection system comes to my mind because it's so elegant).
I tend to buy games like I do books and movies: art/production design and theme, followed closely by storyline and mechanics. There is not a lot that I've seen come out that is actually outstandingly innovative - most is really just derivative which can still be great and quite engaging. To me, it almost always comes down to the expression of the people that are involved in a production that adds uniqueness and interest.
To me they sound and look very repetitive, the bulk of them at least. Way too much horror, ugly creatures, dungeon crawls. Glad newer games art is refreshing older games or creating new ones with more brilliant palette, not your old 80's school book type of art, and also adding diversity to the characters. I do dislike that many games only cater to those with tons of cash though. Way too many $150 + $50 shipping (to Canada at least) games that won't make retail just because they are deluxe. Still, like you said, plenty coming out but finding a really good one takes time :)
Kickstarter is more often an "I can do that too!" store as opposed to "I can do new!" for boardgames.
Casting shadows will be a fun time. Love dice rolling fighters like King of Tokyo and Dice Throne. Love skirmish games like unmatched and summoner wars. And I LOVE the Exceed mechanic in... Well... Exceed. I'm stoked for one game with all these rolled together.
3:55 You're making me want to play games right now! 🤣🤣🤣
You lost me when you started going through the individual games. Being dismissive of iterations and developments as not being revolutionary is problematic. There are likely less successful games that introduce unique aspects. It's like criticizing Marvel movies for not providing an original concept. I understand the point you're trying to make, but you're just not going to see revolutionary changes often in the main stream titles this industry (or most entertainment industries). If you're interested in that, you'll likely need to dig deep into more obscure markets.
There's definitely stagnation in the hobby, I've noticed it for a while now; too many games feel like the same thing with a new coat of paint. I've been trying to focus on the games I already know I like and focus on keeping up with them (expansions, promos and such), and watching out for games that stand out to me for one reason or another. This has saved me a ton of money and KS anticipation headache, as I see a plethora of games that look at least somewhat interesting, but between storage space, price point, and waiting a year+ to get it, I've been backing less and less KS games and doing the same for games published the traditional way.
Edit: The video game market is even worse. So many 'phone it in' games vs. the early days of passion for games, especially in the 'AAA" industry. The indie scene is giving us better and more fun games than the manufactured blandness that the big companies keep churning out, and they're cheaper to boot!
Edit again: I plead the 5th on Steam sales and my library of games!
Some concepts are repeated in board games, but that doesn't mean that it's the same. Different twists, combinations, themes and so on make it different.
Also, everybody can and should decide for themselves which games they choose. There is also some enjoyment in searching and filtering through the existing board games in search for the 'perfect' one or rather the few good ones for oneself.
Will innovation in board games hit a ceiling some day? I don't know, probably.
I would not call board games a medium.
Fact is that the board game market is overflowing for years. That's not healthy. Not sure how publishers of bad games can hold it up.
And it is a big problem that most big crowdfunding games are just overpriced cash-grabs to rip money off rich people.
Basicly, I understand those who just play the game/games they love. So many nice older games.
Wow! Alex, truly awesome food for thoughts. Thanks!
That's why I only buy retail, and apply filters what theme i want.
Example, I have the "Redwall" set, which is Root, Everdell, Mouse Guard Rpg, Here to slay.
Boardgames I want because of theme :
Mythic Battles (Ragnarok/ Pantheon/ Egypt), tainted grail kings of ruin, Nemesis, Scythe, Lords of the chords.
But is the combination of theme and mechanics what makes want to have the game.
Board games are maturing as a medium. You have a point if you state that you will have the triple-A blockbusters and some indie stuff, where the anonymous middle gets forgotten pretty quickly.
I can’t count the number of games that I’ve sold in recent years after a single play because it didn’t stand out enough compared to the rest of my collection.
The trick is to identify that new game that will either be an added value to your collection or will replace something else.
But for someone who’s new to the hobby, they just start with what is hot now and what I see as an average remake of a classic I own, can be regarded as exciting by a new gamer and become a classic for them.
Original stories for movies are rare these days. Just look at the top 100 movies over the past 5 years. How many of those are either: 1) Remake/reboot 2) Sequels 3) Adaptations from other media (novel, comic, game) and 4) Spin-offs. There's also a similar trend in board games.
Growing up we were way into buying/collecting music than we are now... since well now we have a subscription service and access to 20-30 million titles but that said I recall comparing my pop vs Jazz/Classical selection experience and I realized that classical music was all about various recordings and interpretations of the same music where as pop music was original but generally not covers of other's work due to royalties and so forth. Essentially the number of any particular classic work seemed nearly unlimited compared to a single album choice for a pop artist. Not sure how I can relate this to board games but I guess I would compare the choice of the standard card deck to Classical Music in that we can buy this "game system" aka 52 cards with different back art for next to nothing or we can buy these new game system titles. To some degree the same happened to Monopoly, Chess, (not so much checkers) in the various versions. Axis and Allies hit the version explosion after a relatively stable hot period. Squad Leader also hit the moon in terms of expansions. It is still relatively shocking just how many copies of Squad Leader were sold back in its day. We see a "hot" kickstarter/gamefound and 10-25k backers yet Avalon Hill games that were popular sold millions. Back then though there were VERY few board games to purchase so now we are absolutely overwhelmed with new choices. Also I think what we saw to computer games from the early 8 to 16 bit years to the modern multi-million productions on Xbox or PS systems that may well have run into 30+ million to produce. Perhaps vast improvements in the "Metaverse" will actually finally start carving more into the physical board game market. A picture is worth a thousand words, a movie is worth a thousand pictures and a board game is worth a thousand movies - due to the interactive/agency of participation?
I can’t say that there’s any indicator that boardgame production would or could slow down.
I think more what we will see slowing down is massive game collections.
This applies to all of life, you can travel round the world, an amazing experience, but eventually, a mountain is a mountain, a lake a lake, its the same. I think that games that really try something new, dont always equal success. However there are still games that come out with twists to mechanics. Pesronally Mysthea seems quite different.
Interesting topic though and a great video Alex.2👍
The short, board games are renewable resources. Add in that there will always be a new generation that has never played Checkers and Spades or Viticulture and Gloomhaven, then, factor in the human ingenuity...we haven't reached the pinnacle just yet :D
And for your brother, Alex, perhaps he needs to focus more on the social experience and not just what the game is trying to conjure up.
I think the market is similar to those other media like you say but out of them, board games are the least passive. They take more time to learn, to set up, to clean up. So I think given an equal time investment most of us will go through fewer board games than books, movies, songs, etc.
And that’s ok. I think it’s good to try out new ones on a regular basis. It’s a lot of fun. But even more than books, movies, songs, I think there’s a lot of value in going back to the games you already know and love. It’s all about finding the balance that keeps things fun without wearing you out.
I haven't played new games enough to explore all the possibilities, so I'm not at all to that burnt out point. I was watching a dice tower, and they we're comparing one game to another with similar mechanics and said it's not worth it because it's very similar, but someone like me wouldn't know or care if that was the case as long as the game was fun. I've gotten there with video games and movies and have been cutting back because I've just done it so much it gets repetitive, but with cutting back and picking quality video games and movies those hobbies are still amazing.
If you are in to a certain thing, you just want more of it, even if it is not truly different from what you already have,that’s the unfortunate reality of human kind. So although you are correct, it will never change.
On a different note, I’d love to see a video for noobs, with your favorite games on different mechanics, taking into account price/performance. Those choices would probably favor older games and be great for people like me trying to build out their collection while trying to figure what they truly enjoy in the hobby.
Guy Ritchie is the director you were thinking of for Gentlemen. 1 of my top 3 directors.
I've been feeling this a lot lately. The cult of the new is turning into mental exhaustion. And after 10s to 100s of different games played, it is truly rare for one to wow me. I know the ones I already love and I really just want to play them more. I wish everyone else would do the same. For anyone entering the hobby that would like to avoid the burnout, I would say the following: Theme matters. Production matters. Pick a few games that are known to be rated well, produced well, and that cover themes that you and your friends are most interested in. And then stop buying games. Play those games to death. It's far better than the alternative, trust me.
To me it boils down to this. Am I having fun? I don't care if Ark Nova is old/new, I'm having a ton of fun. I don't spend time comparing to other card driven games. Same with Arnak. It's fun. We live in the golden age of board games, board games are not getting old, the mechanics and ides might get old but they don't make these new games less fun.
Agreed very much :)
I have two easy rules. Only buy from designers I love or from the top 100. I buy like 20 games a year and don't have many duds
I think there are alot of different game types. When I buy a new car I really just want an upgraded version of what I already have. That sounds good to me. I get a car that I know I already like but now upgraded with improvements. Even slight improvements is still nice to have. More of what I already like is great.
The best way to combat the overconsumption is to "Out of sight, Out of mind" the subject. Its not good for the people trying to prosper in the business but its the only way to stop buying the "same" products.
Burncycle is pretty different/new... honestly everything Chip Theory does is pretty new/unique.
But I don't get a bunch of new stuff in part because of this, actually. Once I have games that I love that scratch an itch, I have much less incentive to buy new ones. Story games being a bit of a different beast. That's more due to not having time to play all the story games I already have
I will say that in many games small tweaks to mechanics do make a huge difference. Gaia Project vs Tera Mystica. 1830 vs 1882 vs 18Chesapeake vs 1889. But that's generally only the case for the super tight designs where small tweaks have huge ramifications.
I tend to buy different games with different mechanism and 4-5 games per year.I own around 20 board games til now.i dont want to buy things i wont play.
I have more fun with miniture agnostic skirmish games lately. After customizing my own minis, even after a new game comes out I can still use my home made models. And just download as new pdf or whatever.
Totally. Stargrave, Rangers, and now Silver Bayonet are being played more than my regular boardgames.
Great topic! I think that there’s only so many ways that you can create a boardgame. There’s only so many different techniques you can use when designing that yes some games do use the same mechanics. But the thing about boardgames and the reason I love them is because you’re supposed to use your imagination. And a good game Will capture your imagination and make you feel like you are inside the game. A game I sleeping gods, Makes you feel like you’re in that land sailing around. Robinson Crusoe, makes you feel like you are truly surviving on an island on your own. But if you just look at the game in general they’re have mechanics that are used in other games. What from the mag point of view and a story telling point of view that’s where games differ.
I always saw the board game as a book except every time you play it it has a different ending.
As my collection grows it gets harder for me games to enter the collection as the game needs to add something unique / new to me or it needs to be much better than one of the classics in order to replace another. Simple as that for me. :)
The games that are the most refined/optimized board games will end up being the best e.g. like bloodrage I am looking forward to a new area control game that dethrones bloodrage
100% :) And Inis ;)
The Band Status Quo released two song using the same music, just adding different lyrics
Great video. Cool shirt. The importance of these review videos can be crucial. I just bought termite towers and halfway through play I put it away unsatisfied. Blinded by the illustrations and visuals wish there was a review on it
Heard people got great huals from board game co used games. Got me interested
Like movies, books, tv shows or videogames...nothing is new when you shove it into a category (fiction, non-fiction, horror, action,, romance...). The thing that is new is not the destination or the category it fits in but the journey used to get there. Entertainment doesn't accomplish "new" things often, they just do them better.
Learning new things keeps you brain flexible and young. Learning new games helps maintain Neuroplasticity
Game experiences depend on the social group and how that particular play went. I’d like to see if you could make a game unique. You could say the same thing with music rehashing itself; every art does this. There are only so many mechanisms, music note combinations, art styles etc. enjoy what you have and so what if it’s just a difference in the use of mechanisms, it’s about the experience you have.
Passion. Not everyone has it, and I love all those that do.
Not totally relevant to the whole video but something you mentioned. Games like Arnak/Dune aren't doing anything new, BUT the new trend seems to be to take multiple mechanisms people enjoy and slap them together instead of basing the entire game around 1 main mechanism.
Love the Four Chords Song :D
I do think there has to be some limit. The people in the hobby are going to run out of shelf space, and have too many games filling the same niche. For me, I don’t really need any more heavy euros, miniature skirmish games, campaign narrative games. Hell even a mid weight euro needs to be something special.
I definitely take a break from board games every few years. I always get sucked back in due to innovation and creative themes.
I see the problem as follows: There is too much rush to get the money.
Games tend to have some good aspects and then from few to many not so great aspects (mostly mechanics). I have been very weary to get new games from the store/crowd funding as they tend to be more on the mediocre "kinda fun but not quite there" offerings. Many games being published would actually benefit alot from just more time on designing. Other thing that bores me (and boring is a big no no) is the theming choises (generic fantasy should go away for few years). There does not seem to be interest in taking risks and as result most games tend to be flavourless, colourless and shapeless -> boring. What i mean is i want a game (sometimes) to be like "This war of mine". Something that has identity.
Interesting you mention Unsettled, I finally played it for the first time today (solo). It was a fun experience but at the same time it felt very mechanical to me.
Now, that's not a bad thing since I enjoy the mechanics but at the same time I feel like it's an interesting example of a game where the theme is strong...but it doesn't come through much with the actual mechanics of the game.
So yeah, I enjoyed it but at the same time wished there was a closer meshing of the themes and mechanics.
Interesting conversation, I will say on the subject of buying new games, as I have moved further along in my time in the hobby I find that I purchase fewer and fewer games each year. 10 years in the hobby and I have acquired around 300 board games. I have only sold or traded maybe 15-20 games in that time period I tend to keep a game once I buy it. Within that first year or two my collection quickly jumped to nearly 100 games but as time passes the number of new games each year dwindled. At this point I buy less then 10 new games a year, which for some might still be a lot but for me its a huge reduction and I have feeling that number may continue to decline. I have noticed that I am less impulsive with purchases now. I tend to research and play games before buying them and often will purchased a game 1-2 years after its release. You mentioned Ark Nova a game I have played a couple times now and will most likely add to my collection at some point but in the pass might have just purchased it based on the hype alone. Its also worth pointing out that I don't have a shelf of shame, I am pretty big on playing all the games i purchase as they come in. I currently only have a single unplayed game, but its a narrative campign and will be starting it the next couple weeks as soon as we wind down the current game we are playing.
I feel that about not just board games but a lot of entertainment in general (video games/tv shows..).
Once in a while something will come out that will still take me by surprise and consume all my time (Elden Ring for video games recently) but I find that I mostly gravitate towards existing things that I know are good.
For board games that would be TMB, Spirit Island or Marvel Champions for solo gaming for example. Just these three games could give me more gameplay than I have time for but I still get something new once in a while, just not as much as before.
Ok. So I've been feeling a little disenchanted with the hobby lately. Not with actually playing the games. Just with getting excited for new releases.
That being said, new innovative ideas are being concocted all of the time. There are more designers bringing more ideas to the table than ever before.
Is the market getting oversaturated? I think so. But obviously I'm wrong because there still seems to be enough dollars/interest to support all of these new projects.
But for a jaded vet like me (apparently) it is harder for me to get excited than it used to be.
I find myself more excited than ever about certain titles... But then a large portion of titles I enjoy while not being overly excited about them
@@BoardGameCo I have three games releasing this year that I'm excited about. The rest are all expansions to things I already own and love. But that's good for my budget.
I'm more on a different side. I prefer my game to be a beige heavy euro. For me, I generally want to have a decent experience (component wise, theme so-so), but the beauty lies in the inner complexity and large amount of different strategies that can be more or less viable, depending on the situation. I don't need new as in the new mechanism, I need new as in the new ways I can play the same game in order to find some new aspects of it. That's why I want my heavy euro designers to experiment with subgenres more than themes, story, components or the genre. As far as I'm concerned, one designer can do worker placement all his/her life (like Lacerda), if they make the underlying mechanism with lots of variety, 20 different viable strategies I'm all in. That's why sometimes I have issue with Rosenberg, because he tends to reskin his games. When he innovates, he does some brilliant games. Innovation comes from inner complexity (not 30 pages rulebook), not minis or storybook.
Looks like you set off a firestorm of discussion. I've become way more selective of crowdfunding, because there are so many copy-cat games. I don't worry about a repeated mechanic, as much as theme, playability, art, etc. I have way too many miniature games, so unless something is unique or speaks to me, then forget it. There is simply too many games to play and collect, and I am running out of space for those games I thought I really wanted to keep.
This would make a good TED Talk (albeit for a more limited audience) but still, a divisive and thought-provoking symposium nonetheless.
Variety is the spice of life right? All that is new was old at some point and that's ok. Better art, better graphic design, better understanding of game mechanics, each year of games builds on years past and that's a good thing.
I restrict my library to 45 games. My hope is to find my perfect 45 and then never buy another one. But I'll never complete it, because the new variations on my old favorites always get me, and that's so enjoyable to see designers take what I love and give me a new variation, a new way to love the same old mechanics that speak to me.
Absolutely agree :)
And, thank you for filtering the good new ones for us to give them a try. 😎
I think that Teburu system has the potential to completely revolutionize boardgames and provide huge supply of games with completely new mechanics, which were not possible previously - actual hidden movements, very complicated mechanics of enemies that you have to learn through playing, exploration of the board and finding hidden parts of the map, replacing rolling dice as a test for solving some puzzle with actual puzzles to solve on the map and which can change next time for unlimited playability, I honestly feel like possibilities are endless
But in doing so board games as a whole would become so much less accessible (and portable), basically creating just a worse videogame. I cannot imagine a whacky, overcrowded game night with something like that
@@Maspital I mean, aren't most of the crowd-funded games not suitable for whacky overcrowded evening? I can't imagine playing gloomhaven, or any more complex game in overcrowded setup. And I'm not saying anything would be replaced, just in the topic of innovation in board games, and the feeling that everything feels too similar to each other if it comes to newly developed games, then I think The Bad Karmas and Teburu in general significantly stand out, as it opens up completely unexplored area of digitalized boardgames, which offer much more flexibility in terms of mechanics, ergo: this will be something completely new and unexplored
@@rafawojcik2453 You are probably right. It's just that - in my mind - board games are something that's thoroughly analogue
@@Maspital I get that, I'm on the other hand super hyped for the crazy opportunities it gives, but I get that some people can be reluctant to it
There are only so many game mechanics that you can pull from. So of course you are just going to keep getting overlap. The difference is how those mechanics are used together and the theme of the game.
Interesting thought. Many of us end up becoming more picky about what games we get. I know I have cooled on kickstarters lately.
Even with top notch publishers. Wayfarers of the South Tigris is my first Shem Game that I'm skipping in a long time.
This is why I left euro games and only play them when people ask. They all feel the same. I’m starting to get more into heavy campaign games.
I agree to an extent, the problem is the same can be said for party games, dungeon crawlers, area control... They all share certain notes that make most of them feel similar
Best topic for quite awhile.
Aeon's End. I recently discovered that game and it is so different yet amazing. Of course now that has been copied by Astro knights. Which, to credit, is made by the same creators.
When can we expect Planet Unknown Review?
Next week or two :)
I have had similar feelings about board games, same mechanic just repeated. This is due to what I consider a big collection, cost of new games, and less time to play. Considering getting rid of games also adds to this dilemma. I've had a lot of hobbies die just from friends moving on to other interests as well. I do think different themes, interesting art, and new cultural influences (three tale....thracian, victim....Thai) keep things interesting. I agree alot of movies and video games are the same way. But also most of the time it's not about the mechanics of the game, movie, or even book but the experience that we have...feeling like we are making the decisions that effect the outcome of a game, or even working towards an outcome that we know is coming but the experience getting there. I think that's what matters...games that keep that experience time and again get played so we can feel those moments...then we explore new games to enhance or add to that. Live like a cowboy in western legends, escape a doomed spaceship in nemesis, just survive in dead of winter....can u do it and the adventure getting there. Thanks for the video Alex.
Alex: dont buy new games
Also alex: Ooooooh shiiiny
XD
You had me worried until the 13th minute
Took your advice. Stopped watching your video to go watch The Four Chord Song... And it was fascinating and entertaining 😂
I try not to think of my games as a series of mechanics. I can understand games feeling "samey" if thats the way your brain works.