I frequently tell the families of my beginner students that at any price point, from $100 to $1000 and above, you will ALWAYS get a better deal on a used instrument than a new one. For example, you can buy a decent, playable used trumpet or trombone for $100, but a new one will be garbage. The same for a $200 clarinet or sax. And yet I still have parents wondering why their kid's shiny new $100 Amazon-special clarinet needs to go to the shop after a month...
I scored a refurbished King Double French Horn and case for my son on ebay for $450, and bought a good quality yamaha mouthpeice for it. The horn is probably 30 years old, and has a few dents and scratches, but it plays and sounds really good. Local music stores wanted $100/month to RENT a single french horn!!!!
I had seen and read this suggestion from several sources, A couple weeks ago, I bought a Conn Director straight tenor trombone made in 1965 off eBay for $125 plus shipping (for myself to learn to play). I knew Conn is a good brand, and it came with a Vincent Bach 7C mouthpiece, and the advertisement mentioned that it had been "professionally cleaned". I'll admit I wasn't particularly concerned about cosmetics although it looked fine in the photograph, but this turned out to be in excellent condition with very minimal wear. I am very happy with it, and having a lot of fun learning to play it. I'm 68 y/o, and have played other instruments, such as clarinet and double bass, but I've always wanted to take up a brass instrument. I've been brushing up on my clarinet, too--this instrument is actually harder to blow than the trombone, although the latter requires a greater volume of air.
@@bobjacobson858 Yeah man! The Conn Director is a great trombone, and that's a great deal for a starter instrument. Unless you run into something that really requires an F trigger, it won't hold up your progress.
I have a button accordion, a wooden flute, a concert flute, an Irish Piccolo, 2 saxophones (saving money for a third), 10 Irish whistles, 2 recorders, 2 harmonicas, 1 set of panpipes, two keyboards (used to have 2 other keyboards and a electric organ before selling them) a ceramic ocarina and a violin, so, I guess, yes? Only if you can afford it and put the time and effort into playing them though. Getting all of those took me about 23 years and besides the saxophone which I only got a year ago, I have spent years learning to play them all
I'd say yes. I have only cheap/student grade instruments, mostly bought second hand, so obviously I need some spares :) So far we're talking : 3 standard trumpets, 3 cornets, 1 pocket trumpet, 1 piccolo trumpet, 2 pTrumpets, a tenor horn, a baritone, zero talent and a partridge in a pear tree. Clearly not enough instruments yet.
He’s running out of wall space. Every wall in his house is nearly covered. He can no longer find members of his family through the layers of brass instruments
I have a Selmer Bundy Trumpet that was made in the 1960s that was given to me by my music teacher because I couldn't afford one at the time. It was the nicest instrument in the school. The finish was great and it was easy to hold for longer periods of time. Only thing was is that I didn't take good care of it over the years. The tuning slide kept getting stuck and the same music teacher told me back in 1997 when the slide was stuck to leave the trumpet in hot soapy water for about two hours. Big mistake. The slide never loosened up and the beautiful lacquer finish was ruined. My friend took it to his shop and had the slide fixed for me but the damage was done. I still have that horn for sentimental reasons. Last year, I bought a Couesnon (pronounced Kwee-Non) trumpet because I couldn't afford my dream trumpet, the Henri Selmer Balance Trumpet, the one that my idol Louis Armstrong played. The Couesnon trumpet is made in France. I bought it because I wanted a professional trumpet. I was tired of playing a student horn for so long and I foolishly thought that with a professional horn, my tone would sound better and brighter like Al Hirt in the 1960s. When I bought the horn from eBay, I didn't know that it wasn't a jazz trumpet even though the lister said it was. Couesnon made marching band instruments, not jazz. I got it in the mail. It was so heavy and within the case, it was even heavier. There were water spots galore by the bell because the maker of the horn thought it was a great idea to have the water key or spit valve facing the bell so all the condensation can be splattered on the bell. I always liked nice shiny horns and this wasn't it and to top it off, my tone and sound sounded the same as it did on the Selmer Bundy horn. $340 bucks in the crapper. I still play it from time to time but not much. I know that quite a few jazz musicians like playing older horns that aren't glamorous to look at and some even raw brass but me, I like my horn shiny and not so heavy either when holding it. Since I have depression, I haven't really wanted to play because my tone isn't as good as it was twenty years ago and playing all alone in my room with no one listening doesn't help either. I tried posting videos of myself playing online, mostly on Instagram but very few people give a crap. So all four of my horns just sit in their cases.
I teach children music for a living. I ALWAYS come down on the side of older, used instruments. Dollar for dollar you get much more out of an older nicer instrument than a newer student grade instrument. Often when I hear a student’s budget I instantly tell them to steer clear of anything brand new in that price range because typically all they could afford would be a toy. But, hunting around a bit for a second hand deal they can usually find something playable in that same price area. It’s no contest between a toy and a real, but worn, instrument. 
Wise words. I got my son a 30 year old King Double French Horn on ebay for $450, and a new Yamaha mouthpeice. The horn has a few dings and scratches, but it plays well. Local music stores wanted $100/month to RENT a single french horn!!!
I think the most important things with any instrument, especially when you are starting to learn on it is that it is built well (well well enough if its in the student price range as professional level instruments are usually going to have higher build quality), it must be reliable and not need repairs often, and it has to be easy to play as if your going to be fighting with the instrument, it might be discouraging, especially when you are a child learning. I play the saxophone and started on a cheap Chinese alto. It was the only saxophone I had ever held and played, so didn't have a comparison of how good a saxophone is supposed to feel to touch and play, but I was always feeling discouraged with it as the low notes never seemed to come out and the high notes didn't come out well either. In a few months of owning it, it had air leaks in the low notes. A couple of months later I got a Yamaha YAS-280 and it was miles better. Felt far better in my hands, not chunky or slightly grubby as the Chinese sax did, built well and I found the issues I was having were the Chinese sax and not myself as the notes just came out and it made me love saxophones and I play as much as I can now. Yes looks can be good, especially for a child learner, but not as important as the other factors. When looking at second hand instruments you have to consider how well it has been looked after and how good of condition the instrument is and if there are any potential issues with it, how easy it is to play and how well it will hold up over time and also maybe include the cost of getting it checked over by a professional repairer first, if you don't know how to repair any issues yourself, just to make sure it is in working playable condition. If I ever were to buy a second hand horn/saxophone, that is the first thing I'd do. I'd find a good reputable repairer and send it to them to check over and include the cost of doing so in the price.
Sound is much more important than appearance. There is nothing wrong with starting out on a "beater" horn, as long as the valves are in good working order. Think of your "Next Horn", and use that for motivation to practice and improve.
I learned on a trumpet about as beaten up as the one you showed because it was all my parents could afford at the time and the Internet didn't exist to search for deals so we only had the newspaper classified section to rely on. It was a piece of junk that literally fell apart by the time I retired it but I loved playing so my parents saved up for a nice new Getzen when I got to high school.
I've got a 60 year old besson 50 medals tenor horn. It had a bent bell which I straightened and a big dent that I knocked out. I don't think a child would want it but it plays beautifully with very little effort. Instruments in those days were expensive but made to last several life times.
I’m an intermediate Horn (French) player. Because I’m still in school and haven’t bought my own horn, I just gave up on the appearance. I currently play on a Holten 379. It was one of the best 379 I’ve ever played on, and my horn teacher, who has first chair All-State in two states, say it’s the second best horn she’s ever played on.
All your points are valid and has been the way I've been approaching parents the past couple of years asking the same questions. As for myself, I started with a beater of a cornet but that didn't stop me in the least. Despite being in a family able to provide the best, the cornet was what was available(returned to my father) and that's what I with with. I upgraded to a Bach Strad a few years later. The cornet is still in use(long story, not sharing) and so is the Bach Stradivarius. Some kids want something shiny, some won't care. The important thing is that the instrument is in proper operating condition. Fighting problems will also cause kids to quit such as sticking valves/slides, leaking water keys, tuning slides that don't move.
My daughter started learning trumpet in a local concert band beginners class at 7...they gave her an old one out of the storage room... She used that for a year until one day during a lesson it actually fell in half....I then bought her one for £50 online , new.... As I was not sure if she would last the distance.. But she did! After 2 years she was allowed into the band as third trumpet...so I did my homework and. Bought her a new Yamaha 4335gs ....after a few weeks the old guy 1st trumpet and 2nd trumpet girl aged 25..both left the band...my daughter ended up on her own for several year's ...she thrived on it...now she is 22..at university playing in an orchestra 1st trumpet.... She STILL has the same Yamaha I tell her she needs a pro horn now, she declines... Not yet Dad!
Thank you trent, I just recently purchased a Chinese trumpet and am learning to play it! It was one of the more expensive ones mind you. $160 but i git it on sale for 88. Anyway thanks for inspiring me to learn this new instrument.
My oldest daughter plays my nearly 30 year old King 601 trumpet (complete with a bunch of missing lacquer). She complains when she occasionally has to play my 601SP that is a few years newer because no one has a silver plated trumpet in middle school. Once she gets to high school, I have considered getting her an old professional trumpet depending on what her twin sisters do (who will be starting band the same year).
I just bought a '75 King 1159 double horn, it is way better from a playability standpoint than my previous horn, a much newer Holton 179. There are some lacquer issues, yes, but I would say go for the old instrument unless you can afford a new horn. You can't beat that old quality.
While I mostly agree with the argument at hand, especially when considering getting instruments for a beginner blindly, a lot of this depends on the student in question. I managed to find an old bach strad in near perfect playing condition but the cosmetic "inferiorities" (uneven lacquer, small scratches and dents) are much of what gave the instrument character to me and endeared me to practice more
I generally agree with Trent. A good second-hand instrument that has been well looked-after will always be a good choice balancing quality and budget. I lucked out with a long-term loan of an old Yamaha Trumpet with only a missing pinky hook. I get the same question from parents a lot, even though I don't have much of a background in brass, and I tell them that for all musical instruments a good new mid-student-level instrument and a second hand professional instrument in good condition are about the same price-point and the best sort of choice. Very cheap new instruments are usually such poor quality that they don't last more than a year and are difficult to play. I've found this true for everything from woodwinds, brass, pianos, keyboards, etc.
I have a pair of kings, my alto sax is from the early 20’s it’s nearly perfect. My tenor is from the early 60s , the lacquer is almost completely gone and is my main horn. I’ve Been playing it for over 25yrs. I love the sound and the patina. Show your students the pros playing well worn Selmer of Paris and maybe they won’t mind the instrument that is no longer shiny!
Your point about the two trumpets is interesting because I’m the exact opposite. When I got my first sax I picked the one that looked and felt old over the one that was shiny new.
5 years ago after not playing for 15 years i found i could play again so i found a conn director listed for parts or repair or a wall hanger. in the pictures it looked mint so i bid the min $15 plus shipping and won it. it was a 1967 conn director cornet the finish was 95% with only 1 dent but all the slides and valves were frozen.. the valves were frozen as i found dried chocolate milk in them. so i soaked the horn in warm water and sprayed the valves and slides with penetrating oil. in about 30 minutes i had it all apart and freed up. i cleaned it and lubed it and it plays like a dream. now this is a student horn but it was circus bore measuring 0.484 in the second valve tuning slide.. i learned on a 1964 olds special cornet and two years later i got an olds studio cornet in 1966. this conn plays better than either of them. it has great projection a warm tone and slots perfect. my director was shocked at how good it sounded. i sent it to the repair shop and had the dent removed and valves aligned with all new felts and corks.. so bottom line is if you know your older horns you can find them cheap or in reconditioned shape i would rather give a good student a rebuilt older horn than any of these cheap import knock off horns. the con director cornet sold for $100 more than the olds special and about the same as the studio model..i just lucked out in getting a horn only used a very short time maybe 1 year and sat in the closed for decades.. they are out there on ebay.. i normally only play top of the line pro horns but this cornet impressed me..
Playing a roundabout 70 old Tuba myself, I can only advise going for second hand Instruments. Even if new ones look better and may feel better, usually you only get very bad ones for the same price as used ones. In some cases, if you know exactly what you are looking for, the only possibility, in fact, is going for a second hand one. That was the case for me for example. Some manufacturers don't exist anymore but their instruments still do. They are the legacy that is worth hunting for.
As a fellow sufferer of the tuba fever, I'll have to confirm. Given the horrendous price point of a _good_ new tuba, a decent second hand will always be better bang for the buck. There's no way I'd been able to start playing if a new instrument had been a requirement, but starting out on (borrowed) banged out East German Eb-tubas and then getting my own second hand Amati F-tuba later made it happen. The Amati is interesting in its own right as well, being from before the fall of the Berlin wall when they apparently stamped Amati and Cerveny fairly willy-nilly, so it has an Amati stamp but is a Cerveny pattern rotary valve.
@@thomasfrederiksendk Funny coincidence: my Tuba was actually produced by the German Bohland & Fuchs company but only sold after the company got bought up by cerveny, so I have both stamps on the bell
My daughter was given an older (says "made in czechoslovakia") amati clarinet last summer. By all accounts, it's a nice instrument. It's in good shape, it's a higher end model clarinet. But it's not a good instrument to learn on. Though it's capable of being a better sounding clarinet, she has a far better time on the used student model Jupiter that I found for her. Economical, easily playable, durable enough to outlast the learning stage. That's a fine goal to shoot for
A recent acquisition of mine was an ex-rental cornet, just student-grade but it has obviously been looked after. The valves are smooth and crisp, all the slides are just right, no significant dents or peeling lacquer; there are no obvious intonation issues that I've found so far, and it only cost me 73GBP from eBay (maybe US$ 100 at a guess?). It may be fair to say that rental equipment is likely to be looked after fairly well because the rental company might be a music store or other specialist with a vested interest in keeping the goods fit for purpose. Another consideration might be that with cheaper instruments you can learn to disassemble them, learn how they work, teach yourself a few tricks about good and bad practice, how to lubricate and look after the moving parts. If you screw it all up and wreck the instrument then you're not too far out of pocket. In any case, all learning is good, even if the student loses interest further down the line.
If I had been able to buy "best, expensive" when starting on brass in teens, I would have been a better player, and would have actually SAVED money. But like many others I started on "used, mediocre, cheap" and had many of similar type over many years (65+), until in later years I managed to afford "best, expensive": Schilke trumpets, cornet; King trombones 2B & 3B etc. One pays for TONE and good construction/workmanship. I still kept most of the accumulated brass, and still practise on "old, used, cheap but good": FE Olds etc. But what is needed is room SPACE!
I have this old, probably around 60-ish years old trumpet..... a Henri Selmer Paris K-modified trumpet.... and I can’t explain what I see on the trumpet, I can describe it as marks... light marks..... never knew what it was.... thought you could help.
It's important to ask the prospective student what they think. Some do care about having a snazzy shiny horn, others don't. Some might think that the bright blue plastic one is where it's at. Look at music shops, many have refurbished instruments that look pretty good, are in working order and can be rented or purchased as rent-to-own. In my case I got a cheap Old's Alto sax for $30 at an auction because of a solder break. Repairs and repadding will cost $750. So for about $800 I've got a mid grade horn that would have cost about $2000 as a rent-to-own instrument from the music shop.
Tooting my own horn a bit, but I think I've done pretty well on the second hand market. Nothing top of the line, but all very serviceable and decent cosmetics: Bb trumpet - 1983 Bach 37 - $850 C trumpet - Buescher Aristocrat (modified Thomas by Kremser) - $550 + $200 for slide and valve adjustments Flugelhorn - ~1970 Getzen Eterna - $500 Trombone - ~1975 Olds Superstar with F Trigger - $575 Alto Sax - ~1980 Conn 20M - FREE + $600 overhaul Clarinet - ~1975 Buffet K series - $50 + $275 overhaul The Bb was my first and most expensive. Second hand is the way to go!
Back in 1990 I saw a Conn 88H tenor/bass trombone in excellent condition at a pawn shop for $300. I saved up all summer (I was in 7th grade) and finally bought it. It got me to Interlochen and then to Juilliard. Try finding one of those now a days for a few hundred dollars! My son took up trombone and as I didn't have the cash for a new or even used one we ordered a Mendini (Chinese brand) f attachment. It blew me away. It sounds great and is well made! It is an exact copy of a Yamaha. Some Chinese ones are good and some are not. Don't forget that Jupiter was and maybe still is made in Taiwan and people love those. Just do your research.
For a first instrument? Whatever $100 dollars makes a note imo. No student first starting out really gets notes or cares about intonation (I pretty much almost gave up). Have you gone to a 7th or 8th grade concert (those were when we started out in my school)? Just be ok with buying a newer one if they decide they like it (used is good, I still rock a used base-bone, love that sonofabitch).
I have recently been tuba shopping with my grand daughter as she heads to college. The used market is almost non existent. Since these are rather large instruments often used in school settings, most have a varying amount of dents and bruises. How severe must a dent be before it changes the tone of the instrument. Do some locations matter more than others? How about a video on this topic
Are there cases where a professional brass instrument is extremely well suited to a professional player, but where that same instrument would be more challenging for a student to try to learn with? As a ten year old I played Clarinet for a year before switching to percussion, and the reeds we used were certainly oriented towards students and experienced clarinet players used reeds that would have been very difficult for a student to use.
I can't speak for other brass instruments, but when it comes to trombones students are often given a small bore trombone as a beginner horn, as larger bore horns, while producing a warmer, more orchestral tone, require much more air.
I am a trombonist, and, while I would start a beginner on a small bore horn, I have band director friends who start all their students on large bore horns and they get good results. But, yeah, small is how I would go. They are cheaper, too! Make sure the slide is as smooth as you can get it. It's almost the only thing that matters.
I have a 41 year old Bach 50BL Bass Trombone (made in 77). Plays fine for the most part but the triggers are loud and cleanly from the owner beforehand not taking care of them and the lawyer is very worn. 9.5/10 would recommend horn, and it’s probabaly missing that .5 bc of its old ness. If I could buy a fairly newer one I would!
would you rather a chinese brass trumpet or a plastic trumpet. I play euphonium but want a trumpet for fun my budget is at max 200 euro's. and I wanna hear your advice
If I can get a (second hand) sax for around £250 (€280) then it seems easy enough for that budget. Trumpets are smaller and generally made more widely. As long as you arent looking for high class marching band stuff, you'll be fine
Maybe there's a place for both if your budget will stretch to it. A brass instrument may sound nicer and more authentic as well as feel more like the real deal; a plastic one can be left in the boot of your car or otherwise generally abused, without attracting all the scuffs and dents you'll get with metalwork. It would still be usable for learning the basic technique, fingering, harmonic series - just an allround knockabout bit of fun.
Bas Liebregts, I love my Yamaha YCR231S long cornet. I bought it used second hand on eBay and is likely from the 70’s. The build quality is so great that even 40 years later the valves and slides are perfect, and hardly require lubricant. I even bought another one for $30 with broken solder joints, and it still had wonderful smooth valves and slides. These instruments, are available for about $100, (don’t know about what it is in pounds,) and maybe a bit more for excellent condition. The lacquer version of this instrument, the YCR2310 is even more widely available. I would also advise a Japanese made one as the older ones made there have the best quality, (it will probably say Japan somewhere on the instrument or case, if you can’t tell ask the seller.) That would be my recommendation.
@@braeden90000 You can get second hand cheap ones for a lot less. Saxophones are worth more than trumpets plus if ita just a hobby thing then they dont need to get a peofessional one
In my case, the answer is an unequivocal no. I've been playing the same Bb trumpet since 1966 without repairs; and it still has all of its original parts. And it still plays as well as the day it was purchased for $190 (US). And it was purchased used, nevertheless. 😉 BTW: It's a Bundy designed by Vincent Bach and made in the USA. 😊 🎺 🎶
The other big question is what is their price point? Excellent instruments cost a pretty penny even used. You have to be prepared for the reality of the cost of a excellent instrument. So do your research and maybe contact your nearest professional orchestra to speak to one of the players (of the instrument you're interested in). Research and prepare is all I can suggest.
Given I haven't played at all because the Lark baritone I own aggressively sucks the life and joy out of every piece of music (including all funeral marches!), yes, I probably do need an upgrade.
A mint-condition secondhand student instrument will still be less expensive than a new instrument. It'll be easier to repair, be better built, and sound better. But if a new instrument (even a plastic one) motivates a student to practice, it's a fantastic bargain.
Very good videos Trent, but I must say, at least in the US most band directors want students to have begining horns instead of professional ones when they start. As you would know younger students might be a bit rougher on their instrument. As I am a trombone player and I started on a King superior Craftsman trombone with a 6.5 AL mouthpiece and after 4 years was moved to a King 3B f attachment trombone with the same mouthpiece. It all starts out with price, condition, who is going to play it, and their maturity level. Thanks for what you do, Parker
As a kid, I think I would've been fascinated by rusty, old instruments as long as they weren't uncomfortable to play and sounded decent. Pretty much all of my instruments were bought used with some dents and blemishes here and there... And all the ones I bought new are now used instruments with dents and blemishes here and there.
Some good points in the video, however something I would add is that the Chinese cornets and trumpets are not as bad as their reputation, although the bigger instruments really can be unplayable. It's also worth pointing out that the internet is awash with brass instruments made in India which are far inferior to the Chinese instruments. I have come across some cheap Chinese cornets which are perfectly suitable for playing in many British bands (some of the younger players in my own band have played them in competitions) however, once you get to anything bigger than a cornet, the quality really does start to deteriorate. I've seen tenor horns which simply cannot be played in tune. As for the Indian instruments (often branded Tristar or Three Star) these are unplayable. I own a TriStar four valve Flugelhorn which looks very nice, but the fourth valve slide was so short, it played an E rather than a D and was almost impossible to play a straight note with the mouthpiece it came with. Even with a longer fourth valve slide (which the seller provided free of charge after I commented about the original being too sharp) the tuning is criminal. It's ok for playing on your own at home, but as soon as you play with a band, the tuning really stands out.
Sound and playability are the most important things. If a little flaked off lacquer bothers you, maybe you are not that serious about learning your instrument and are just looking for an excuse not to practice.
Good video. I’d add that kids should be taught that an instrument can’t be completely judged by its looks. Ultimately a parent will likely purchase the instrument, and a used high grade instrument will resell more quickly and at a higher price than a new Chinese / India beginner instrument.
I like the idea of taking an old one and then sanding all the lacquer off... ya know, then showing all the vids with jazz professionals and their matte brass finish horns killing it on stage. Either that or getting an older silver plated one at an estate auction or something and having it restored! I have an over 100 year old cornet on the wall with silver plating and a few dings but the kids usually want to play that one first. Maybe I'm just persnickety meh
Somehow I just wasn't interested in playing the school supplied French horn after someone fell on the bell and flattened it like a pancake. Oh someone opened it back up so it could be played. But the bell looked just like a piece of aluminum foil that had been crumpled up into ball and then opened up again. I guess to an 8th grader looks do matter.
In a nut shell, good advice. I think I would add some comments. A. Price and quality are like a valley the high ground in one side are the better quality new instruments. The lowlands in the middle are cheap new instruments and older ones that weren't good when new. Damaged instruments lurk here. The opposite highlands are well made horns of the past which grade up to collector horns costing as much or more than new. B. Get advice from a teacher or good player as to what, where or from whom to buy. C. A good player can make a poor horn sound good because they can sort out their playing from the horn's sound. A beginner can't sort out their playing ability from the horn's capability and their learning curve is therefore torturous.
So I decided to upgrade to an F-Attachment trombone on a budget. I was able to acquire a Olds Ambassador with an F-Attachment. It is roughly 50 years old and I was a little concerned for my performance because of the age and it is worn. And let me say....I have never heard a instrument that plays better! The older instruments, if kept in semi-good condition and undergoes a little maintenance then it will play amazingly! It may not look the best but it is one of the best instruments I have ever played.
As student instrument player I personally care more about sound not appearance because you can have some garbage looking instrument and it sound great, and a good looking instrument and have it sound terrible
I've been playing trombone for just over 10 years now. I was finally able to get my own instrument at the start of my sophomore year of high school, so I didn't have to use a school instrument. I don't know much about it. I bought it second hand for a really good price and it is in great shape. Although, the lacker is not very good. However, that doesn't matter to me because I'm blind. It's not that the lacker is coming off, it's just very rough. I'm still using it in college. Although, I do hope to get a pro grade big bore tenner at some point, but that costs money that I don't have. Until then, my older one will do.
Brent- You may also want to tell that parent that they could use that older trumpet as a test to see how serious they take the responsibility of playing an instrument they haven't played before and when they've proved they can take care of the older trumpet, and do well at it, then the parent can look into buying them a NEW trumpet
So now I've got a sort of related question: I play tenor trombone (with f attachment), but I want to be able to play much easier in the low register (F down to contra F). Should I get a tenor trombone with Hagmann attachment, or should I straight up buy a bass trombone, because I actually like the high register on my tenor very much. I think it's a very tough decision and I can't really figure out the right way. Greetings from Germany - Uli
@@salicional As previously stated, just practice! It'll become easier as you do it more; if you have the option, play some 3rd trombone. That'll really help you get comfortable since you'll be regularly playing within the ranges you wish to improve. Side note: If you didn't know this already, extending your low range will also massively improve your high register!
The horn isn't really going to help you hit the notes, but mouthpiece might. You can play bass trombone notes pretty well on just about anything (even the 12C that came with your student trombone), but a larger mouthpiece will make the notes have a more stable sound and respond better. I use a Denis Wick 4BS on a Bach 36B trombone and, even though it's a medium bore tenor, the trigger notes are very full and responsive.
I play on a Denis Wick 6BL, tested a lot of mouthpieces, to find one I like. And practice does the thing to a certain point, but I've got an absolut standard f attachment and it really works against you in the low register, trust me, I've practiced a lot, it doesn't get easier, at least not easier anymore.
Trent: *specifically adresses a video to parents of young children* also Trent: 3:05 *gestures with both hands gripping something in front of him* "So these are the sides that you sort of need to balance up, like two large melons." Nice one Trent.
Depends on the kind of tuba, but my advice would be to buy second-hand. In the British Brass Band style, (3 top pistons, plus one side piston) good old instruments offer you >80% of what a new instrument would, particularly for Bb tubas and particularly if they're in good condition. Outside of the British style, I would imagine that European-style rotary valves, in particular, age even better than pistons, so second-hand might even be better, but I don't really know much about them or the American style. New instruments are often a false economy, particularly for tubas. You often get poorer performance than good old instruments and they depreciate like crazy. For good old instruments, a ~£2000 refurbishment will probably bring them up to 30-50% of the value of a new professional-grade instrument, making them easy to sell on (and to buy in good condition). If you're dead set on a new low-cost instrument, I hear good things about Wessex Tubas. They manufacture in China but do their own design and quality control. I've never played any of their instruments, though, so I can't comment beyond that. If you can avoid buying, though, I'd advise borrowing. If your band have an instrument, it might be a pain in the butt to play, but I'd advise sticking to it until you're ready to buy at least an intermediate-level instrument (again, consider second-hand professional-level instruments). Tubas are, to put it bluntly, bloody expensive. Expensive enough that it's better to do it once properly than to do it two or three times badly. I'd been a tuba player for 8 years before I bought - I bought a second-hand Besson Sovereign 982 Eb and we've been thick as thieves ever since. I want to buy a Bb (Bb tuba is my 'first instrument') but I know it's not worth spending any less than £8000, so I'm holding off until I'm sure I'm going to keep doing it for a decade or more.
Eric Rakes see I am actually really good at repairing instruments if they are not completely totaled... and I’ve bought most of my instruments from there as well. I was just wondering if there were any that weren’t obvious
I love me some ebay. Make sure your search settings are for "worldwide". If you're looking for something a bit obscure, the best deals are usually from guys in Europe that don't even care what they're selling. Just know what you want and do enough research to know what you're getting (if you care). Don't buy useless/obsolete horns unless you have space for them to reside. Don't buy anything without a mouthpiece unless you're seriously ready for that. Don't buy anything that doesn't look 100% playable if you're not prepared to repair it. Stuck valves and slides aren't scary. Small dents aren't too bad either. Anything else should scare you away immediately.
If it's a kid who's just learning to play, the better alternative might be to RENT an instrument rather than buy it. With a rental, you can afford a better instrument, and if it turns out the kid doesn't really like that kind of instrument you haven't mortgaged the house to buy it. Oh, and most rental programs take care of long-term maintenance for you.
I bought a Chinese silver-plated compensating euphonium for $1000 three years ago. The silver plating is in terrible shape. The valves stick. The horn looks worse than my 60-year-old silver Getzen trumpet, and that one was student-grade. Next time I’ll look for a good secondhand Yamaha or something.
Trent! This is totally off topic but how did you feel about the 2016 flag referendum? If you were opinionated throw out your favorite and least favorite.
Pity the unfortunate parents of future low brass players. There are no fewer than four distinct instruments lumped into the "baritone" category, and they're not entirely compatible with one another in ensemble. Good thing they're all widely available on both the new and used markets. If you want to hear something dreadful, get a Bb Tenorhorn and (British) Baritone Horn together. Not sure what causes it, but it sounds really bad.
If you consider the European and American continental Baritones distinctly different, then yes. That's 5 (at least). Never had the chance to play a rotary Baritone to see if there's really any meaningful difference. I've heard people say they don't like the sound of British and American Euphs mixed, but I don't think it's as bad as the other example.
I disagree. When I stared playing years ago my dad started me on his old King Zephyr that he purchased in 1960. Did it look new? No, it did not. Did I care? No, I did not. Nor did I know what instrument any other kid was playing, or if it was new, old, or stolen. I also have a beautiful over 100 year old silver trumpet with gold leaves on the bell. Best looking trumpet I ever saw. Biggest piece of crap any trumpet player ever tried to play. Always go with quality over beauty.
Online serial number lists can contain some inaccuracies. Other than a few early custom examples, nobody in the US was making double valve bass trombones in the 1940s. Some of the big makers started experimenting in the late 50s and the independent setup didn't really take off until the late 60s.
@@Nick50B In that case the serial number must be 200,000 out. The serial number is in the 249,000's. Unless the serial number is wrong. It's clearly stamped though.
@@TrentHamilton I believe they restarted the serial numbers at some point. If you look at the serial number list on the Conn-Selmer site (www.conn-selmer.com/en-us/resources/serial-numbers/king-instrument-serial-numbers), it looks like they restarted at 100,000 around 1985-1986 rather that go to seven digits. There's some notes on horn-u-copia.net (www.horn-u-copia.net/serial/Kinglist.html) regarding post-1986 serial numbers. Looks like it's kind of a mess. But for a 7B? Definitely late 1970's or newer.
I frequently tell the families of my beginner students that at any price point, from $100 to $1000 and above, you will ALWAYS get a better deal on a used instrument than a new one. For example, you can buy a decent, playable used trumpet or trombone for $100, but a new one will be garbage. The same for a $200 clarinet or sax. And yet I still have parents wondering why their kid's shiny new $100 Amazon-special clarinet needs to go to the shop after a month...
I scored a refurbished King Double French Horn and case for my son on ebay for $450, and bought a good quality yamaha mouthpeice for it. The horn is probably 30 years old, and has a few dents and scratches, but it plays and sounds really good. Local music stores wanted $100/month to RENT a single french horn!!!!
I had seen and read this suggestion from several sources, A couple weeks ago, I bought a Conn Director straight tenor trombone made in 1965 off eBay for $125 plus shipping (for myself to learn to play). I knew Conn is a good brand, and it came with a Vincent Bach 7C mouthpiece, and the advertisement mentioned that it had been "professionally cleaned". I'll admit I wasn't particularly concerned about cosmetics although it looked fine in the photograph, but this turned out to be in excellent condition with very minimal wear. I am very happy with it, and having a lot of fun learning to play it. I'm 68 y/o, and have played other instruments, such as clarinet and double bass, but I've always wanted to take up a brass instrument. I've been brushing up on my clarinet, too--this instrument is actually harder to blow than the trombone, although the latter requires a greater volume of air.
@@bobjacobson858 Yeah man! The Conn Director is a great trombone, and that's a great deal for a starter instrument. Unless you run into something that really requires an F trigger, it won't hold up your progress.
@@matthewsaxman1028 Thanks!
@@jessstuart7495 Music store rentals are such a racket.
Now to the important question.
Should you buy MORE instruments?
My answer would be YES
yes
I have a button accordion, a wooden flute, a concert flute, an Irish Piccolo, 2 saxophones (saving money for a third), 10 Irish whistles, 2 recorders, 2 harmonicas, 1 set of panpipes, two keyboards (used to have 2 other keyboards and a electric organ before selling them) a ceramic ocarina and a violin, so, I guess, yes? Only if you can afford it and put the time and effort into playing them though. Getting all of those took me about 23 years and besides the saxophone which I only got a year ago, I have spent years learning to play them all
I'd say yes. I have only cheap/student grade instruments, mostly bought second hand, so obviously I need some spares :) So far we're talking : 3 standard trumpets, 3 cornets, 1 pocket trumpet, 1 piccolo trumpet, 2 pTrumpets, a tenor horn, a baritone, zero talent and a partridge in a pear tree. Clearly not enough instruments yet.
He’s running out of wall space. Every wall in his house is nearly covered. He can no longer find members of his family through the layers of brass instruments
@@a_literal_brick that sounds like he's doing it right.
Trent tells us we need to balance the options like two large mellons....
I need a bra basically. Got it.
I haven't watched the video yet. But I'm still scared
As you probably should be.
You won't know why he talks about melons then.
Good to see you here up and posting! Hope you're doing well. Thanks for the advice!
I have a Selmer Bundy Trumpet that was made in the 1960s that was given to me by my music teacher because I couldn't afford one at the time. It was the nicest instrument in the school. The finish was great and it was easy to hold for longer periods of time. Only thing was is that I didn't take good care of it over the years. The tuning slide kept getting stuck and the same music teacher told me back in 1997 when the slide was stuck to leave the trumpet in hot soapy water for about two hours. Big mistake. The slide never loosened up and the beautiful lacquer finish was ruined. My friend took it to his shop and had the slide fixed for me but the damage was done. I still have that horn for sentimental reasons.
Last year, I bought a Couesnon (pronounced Kwee-Non) trumpet because I couldn't afford my dream trumpet, the Henri Selmer Balance Trumpet, the one that my idol Louis Armstrong played. The Couesnon trumpet is made in France. I bought it because I wanted a professional trumpet. I was tired of playing a student horn for so long and I foolishly thought that with a professional horn, my tone would sound better and brighter like Al Hirt in the 1960s. When I bought the horn from eBay, I didn't know that it wasn't a jazz trumpet even though the lister said it was. Couesnon made marching band instruments, not jazz. I got it in the mail. It was so heavy and within the case, it was even heavier. There were water spots galore by the bell because the maker of the horn thought it was a great idea to have the water key or spit valve facing the bell so all the condensation can be splattered on the bell. I always liked nice shiny horns and this wasn't it and to top it off, my tone and sound sounded the same as it did on the Selmer Bundy horn. $340 bucks in the crapper. I still play it from time to time but not much. I know that quite a few jazz musicians like playing older horns that aren't glamorous to look at and some even raw brass but me, I like my horn shiny and not so heavy either when holding it.
Since I have depression, I haven't really wanted to play because my tone isn't as good as it was twenty years ago and playing all alone in my room with no one listening doesn't help either. I tried posting videos of myself playing online, mostly on Instagram but very few people give a crap. So all four of my horns just sit in their cases.
I teach children music for a living. I ALWAYS come down on the side of older, used instruments. Dollar for dollar you get much more out of an older nicer instrument than a newer student grade instrument. Often when I hear a student’s budget I instantly tell them to steer clear of anything brand new in that price range because typically all they could afford would be a toy. But, hunting around a bit for a second hand deal they can usually find something playable in that same price area. It’s no contest between a toy and a real, but worn, instrument. 
Wise words. I got my son a 30 year old King Double French Horn on ebay for $450, and a new Yamaha mouthpeice. The horn has a few dings and scratches, but it plays well. Local music stores wanted $100/month to RENT a single french horn!!!
I think the most important things with any instrument, especially when you are starting to learn on it is that it is built well (well well enough if its in the student price range as professional level instruments are usually going to have higher build quality), it must be reliable and not need repairs often, and it has to be easy to play as if your going to be fighting with the instrument, it might be discouraging, especially when you are a child learning. I play the saxophone and started on a cheap Chinese alto. It was the only saxophone I had ever held and played, so didn't have a comparison of how good a saxophone is supposed to feel to touch and play, but I was always feeling discouraged with it as the low notes never seemed to come out and the high notes didn't come out well either. In a few months of owning it, it had air leaks in the low notes.
A couple of months later I got a Yamaha YAS-280 and it was miles better. Felt far better in my hands, not chunky or slightly grubby as the Chinese sax did, built well and I found the issues I was having were the Chinese sax and not myself as the notes just came out and it made me love saxophones and I play as much as I can now. Yes looks can be good, especially for a child learner, but not as important as the other factors.
When looking at second hand instruments you have to consider how well it has been looked after and how good of condition the instrument is and if there are any potential issues with it, how easy it is to play and how well it will hold up over time and also maybe include the cost of getting it checked over by a professional repairer first, if you don't know how to repair any issues yourself, just to make sure it is in working playable condition. If I ever were to buy a second hand horn/saxophone, that is the first thing I'd do. I'd find a good reputable repairer and send it to them to check over and include the cost of doing so in the price.
my french horn is very corroded and and dented and it drives me away from practicing because it doesnt feel good to hold or look good
Get a new one or a good used if you can. No point keeping to one that doesn't make you happy. It isnt a marriage.
Sound is much more important than appearance. There is nothing wrong with starting out on a "beater" horn, as long as the valves are in good working order. Think of your "Next Horn", and use that for motivation to practice and improve.
3:34 damn you could have said saxy
Dude your intros are actually the best on youtube
I still play on a Conn 38H Ballroom tenor and it plays like a dream.
I learned on a trumpet about as beaten up as the one you showed because it was all my parents could afford at the time and the Internet didn't exist to search for deals so we only had the newspaper classified section to rely on. It was a piece of junk that literally fell apart by the time I retired it but I loved playing so my parents saved up for a nice new Getzen when I got to high school.
I've got a 60 year old besson 50 medals tenor horn. It had a bent bell which I straightened and a big dent that I knocked out. I don't think a child would want it but it plays beautifully with very little effort. Instruments in those days were expensive but made to last several life times.
I have a mid 70's king 4b sonorous that I got an awesome deal on! It is awesome and past my high school ability and is great!
I’m an intermediate Horn (French) player. Because I’m still in school and haven’t bought my own horn, I just gave up on the appearance. I currently play on a Holten 379. It was one of the best 379 I’ve ever played on, and my horn teacher, who has first chair All-State in two states, say it’s the second best horn she’s ever played on.
All your points are valid and has been the way I've been approaching parents the past couple of years asking the same questions. As for myself, I started with a beater of a cornet but that didn't stop me in the least. Despite being in a family able to provide the best, the cornet was what was available(returned to my father) and that's what I with with. I upgraded to a Bach Strad a few years later. The cornet is still in use(long story, not sharing) and so is the Bach Stradivarius. Some kids want something shiny, some won't care. The important thing is that the instrument is in proper operating condition. Fighting problems will also cause kids to quit such as sticking valves/slides, leaking water keys, tuning slides that don't move.
My daughter started learning trumpet in a local concert band beginners class at 7...they gave her an old one out of the storage room... She used that for a year until one day during a lesson it actually fell in half....I then bought her one for £50 online , new.... As I was not sure if she would last the distance.. But she did! After 2 years she was allowed into the band as third trumpet...so I did my homework and. Bought her a new Yamaha 4335gs ....after a few weeks the old guy 1st trumpet and 2nd trumpet girl aged 25..both left the band...my daughter ended up on her own for several year's ...she thrived on it...now she is 22..at university playing in an orchestra 1st trumpet.... She STILL has the same Yamaha I tell her she needs a pro horn now, she declines... Not yet Dad!
I hope that your back is feeling better. glad to see videos again!
The other issue with used, non musicians can't tell if it just looks used, or if it's poorly maintained.
Thank you trent, I just recently purchased a Chinese trumpet and am learning to play it! It was one of the more expensive ones mind you. $160 but i git it on sale for 88. Anyway thanks for inspiring me to learn this new instrument.
My oldest daughter plays my nearly 30 year old King 601 trumpet (complete with a bunch of missing lacquer). She complains when she occasionally has to play my 601SP that is a few years newer because no one has a silver plated trumpet in middle school. Once she gets to high school, I have considered getting her an old professional trumpet depending on what her twin sisters do (who will be starting band the same year).
I just bought a '75 King 1159 double horn, it is way better from a playability standpoint than my previous horn, a much newer Holton 179. There are some lacquer issues, yes, but I would say go for the old instrument unless you can afford a new horn. You can't beat that old quality.
While I mostly agree with the argument at hand, especially when considering getting instruments for a beginner blindly, a lot of this depends on the student in question. I managed to find an old bach strad in near perfect playing condition but the cosmetic "inferiorities" (uneven lacquer, small scratches and dents) are much of what gave the instrument character to me and endeared me to practice more
I generally agree with Trent. A good second-hand instrument that has been well looked-after will always be a good choice balancing quality and budget. I lucked out with a long-term loan of an old Yamaha Trumpet with only a missing pinky hook. I get the same question from parents a lot, even though I don't have much of a background in brass, and I tell them that for all musical instruments a good new mid-student-level instrument and a second hand professional instrument in good condition are about the same price-point and the best sort of choice. Very cheap new instruments are usually such poor quality that they don't last more than a year and are difficult to play. I've found this true for everything from woodwinds, brass, pianos, keyboards, etc.
I have a pair of kings, my alto sax is from the early 20’s it’s nearly perfect. My tenor is from the early 60s , the lacquer is almost completely gone and is my main horn. I’ve Been playing it for over 25yrs. I love the sound and the patina. Show your students the pros playing well worn Selmer of Paris and maybe they won’t mind the instrument that is no longer shiny!
Your point about the two trumpets is interesting because I’m the exact opposite. When I got my first sax I picked the one that looked and felt old over the one that was shiny new.
5 years ago after not playing for 15 years i found i could play again so i found a conn director listed for parts or repair or a wall hanger. in the pictures it looked mint so i bid the min $15 plus shipping and won it. it was a 1967 conn director cornet the finish was 95% with only 1 dent but all the slides and valves were frozen.. the valves were frozen as i found dried chocolate milk in them. so i soaked the horn in warm water and sprayed the valves and slides with penetrating oil. in about 30 minutes i had it all apart and freed up. i cleaned it and lubed it and it plays like a dream. now this is a student horn but it was circus bore measuring 0.484 in the second valve tuning slide.. i learned on a 1964 olds special cornet and two years later i got an olds studio cornet in 1966. this conn plays better than either of them. it has great projection a warm tone and slots perfect. my director was shocked at how good it sounded. i sent it to the repair shop and had the dent removed and valves aligned with all new felts and corks.. so bottom line is if you know your older horns you can find them cheap or in reconditioned shape i would rather give a good student a rebuilt older horn than any of these cheap import knock off horns.
the con director cornet sold for $100 more than the olds special and about the same as the studio model..i just lucked out in getting a horn only used a very short time maybe 1 year and sat in the closed for decades.. they are out there on ebay.. i normally only play top of the line pro horns but this cornet impressed me..
Playing a roundabout 70 old Tuba myself, I can only advise going for second hand Instruments. Even if new ones look better and may feel better, usually you only get very bad ones for the same price as used ones. In some cases, if you know exactly what you are looking for, the only possibility, in fact, is going for a second hand one. That was the case for me for example. Some manufacturers don't exist anymore but their instruments still do. They are the legacy that is worth hunting for.
As a fellow sufferer of the tuba fever, I'll have to confirm. Given the horrendous price point of a _good_ new tuba, a decent second hand will always be better bang for the buck. There's no way I'd been able to start playing if a new instrument had been a requirement, but starting out on (borrowed) banged out East German Eb-tubas and then getting my own second hand Amati F-tuba later made it happen. The Amati is interesting in its own right as well, being from before the fall of the Berlin wall when they apparently stamped Amati and Cerveny fairly willy-nilly, so it has an Amati stamp but is a Cerveny pattern rotary valve.
@@thomasfrederiksendk Funny coincidence: my Tuba was actually produced by the German Bohland & Fuchs company but only sold after the company got bought up by cerveny, so I have both stamps on the bell
My daughter was given an older (says "made in czechoslovakia") amati clarinet last summer. By all accounts, it's a nice instrument. It's in good shape, it's a higher end model clarinet. But it's not a good instrument to learn on. Though it's capable of being a better sounding clarinet, she has a far better time on the used student model Jupiter that I found for her.
Economical, easily playable, durable enough to outlast the learning stage. That's a fine goal to shoot for
I play a 50 year old miraphone baritone (that was relacquered) and it's excellent
A recent acquisition of mine was an ex-rental cornet, just student-grade but it has obviously been looked after. The valves are smooth and crisp, all the slides are just right, no significant dents or peeling lacquer; there are no obvious intonation issues that I've found so far, and it only cost me 73GBP from eBay (maybe US$ 100 at a guess?). It may be fair to say that rental equipment is likely to be looked after fairly well because the rental company might be a music store or other specialist with a vested interest in keeping the goods fit for purpose.
Another consideration might be that with cheaper instruments you can learn to disassemble them, learn how they work, teach yourself a few tricks about good and bad practice, how to lubricate and look after the moving parts. If you screw it all up and wreck the instrument then you're not too far out of pocket. In any case, all learning is good, even if the student loses interest further down the line.
If I had been able to buy "best, expensive" when starting on brass in teens, I would have been a better player, and would have actually SAVED money. But like many others I started on "used, mediocre, cheap" and had many of similar type over many years (65+), until in later years I managed to afford "best, expensive": Schilke trumpets, cornet; King trombones 2B & 3B etc. One pays for TONE and good construction/workmanship. I still kept most of the accumulated brass, and still practise on "old, used, cheap but good": FE Olds etc. But what is needed is room SPACE!
I started on the same trumpet my dad did.
Family 'hand me down' horns are the best!!
It depends ,but in general YES !
Especially if you want to be a professional musician.
I found a new Getzen Eterna 2 700 S for $967. It’s a beautiful horn! It was a demo
I have this old, probably around 60-ish years old trumpet..... a Henri Selmer Paris K-modified trumpet.... and I can’t explain what I see on the trumpet, I can describe it as marks... light marks..... never knew what it was.... thought you could help.
Could you email me some photos? Trenthamiltonnz@gmail.com
That cornet you had in the beginning looked nice
It's important to ask the prospective student what they think. Some do care about having a snazzy shiny horn, others don't. Some might think that the bright blue plastic one is where it's at.
Look at music shops, many have refurbished instruments that look pretty good, are in working order and can be rented or purchased as rent-to-own.
In my case I got a cheap Old's Alto sax for $30 at an auction because of a solder break. Repairs and repadding will cost $750. So for about $800 I've got a mid grade horn that would have cost about $2000 as a rent-to-own instrument from the music shop.
Tooting my own horn a bit, but I think I've done pretty well on the second hand market. Nothing top of the line, but all very serviceable and decent cosmetics:
Bb trumpet - 1983 Bach 37 - $850
C trumpet - Buescher Aristocrat (modified Thomas by Kremser) - $550 + $200 for slide and valve adjustments
Flugelhorn - ~1970 Getzen Eterna - $500
Trombone - ~1975 Olds Superstar with F Trigger - $575
Alto Sax - ~1980 Conn 20M - FREE + $600 overhaul
Clarinet - ~1975 Buffet K series - $50 + $275 overhaul
The Bb was my first and most expensive. Second hand is the way to go!
Nice collection! Is your Getzen Eterna 4 valve?
Back in 1990 I saw a Conn 88H tenor/bass trombone in excellent condition at a pawn shop for $300. I saved up all summer (I was in 7th grade) and finally bought it. It got me to Interlochen and then to Juilliard. Try finding one of those now a days for a few hundred dollars! My son took up trombone and as I didn't have the cash for a new or even used one we ordered a Mendini (Chinese brand) f attachment. It blew me away. It sounds great and is well made! It is an exact copy of a Yamaha. Some Chinese ones are good and some are not. Don't forget that Jupiter was and maybe still is made in Taiwan and people love those. Just do your research.
Yamaha now is made in china. My daughter tried a Chinese Yamaha in a store. Nowhere near as good as her Japanese built. same model.
For a first instrument? Whatever $100 dollars makes a note imo. No student first starting out really gets notes or cares about intonation (I pretty much almost gave up). Have you gone to a 7th or 8th grade concert (those were when we started out in my school)? Just be ok with buying a newer one if they decide they like it (used is good, I still rock a used base-bone, love that sonofabitch).
I have recently been tuba shopping with my grand daughter as she heads to college. The used market is almost non existent. Since these are rather large instruments often used in school settings, most have a varying amount of dents and bruises. How severe must a dent be before it changes the tone of the instrument. Do some locations matter more than others? How about a video on this topic
Missed you, Trent. Hope you’re feeling better!
Are there cases where a professional brass instrument is extremely well suited to a professional player, but where that same instrument would be more challenging for a student to try to learn with?
As a ten year old I played Clarinet for a year before switching to percussion, and the reeds we used were certainly oriented towards students and experienced clarinet players used reeds that would have been very difficult for a student to use.
I can't speak for other brass instruments, but when it comes to trombones students are often given a small bore trombone as a beginner horn, as larger bore horns, while producing a warmer, more orchestral tone, require much more air.
I am a trombonist, and, while I would start a beginner on a small bore horn, I have band director friends who start all their students on large bore horns and they get good results. But, yeah, small is how I would go. They are cheaper, too! Make sure the slide is as smooth as you can get it. It's almost the only thing that matters.
@@staritone3883 Huh, never heard anyone say to start someone on a large bore!
I have a 41 year old Bach 50BL Bass Trombone (made in 77). Plays fine for the most part but the triggers are loud and cleanly from the owner beforehand not taking care of them and the lawyer is very worn. 9.5/10 would recommend horn, and it’s probabaly missing that .5 bc of its old ness. If I could buy a fairly newer one I would!
would you rather a chinese brass trumpet or a plastic trumpet. I play euphonium but want a trumpet for fun my budget is at max 200 euro's. and I wanna hear your advice
If I can get a (second hand) sax for around £250 (€280) then it seems easy enough for that budget. Trumpets are smaller and generally made more widely. As long as you arent looking for high class marching band stuff, you'll be fine
Maybe there's a place for both if your budget will stretch to it. A brass instrument may sound nicer and more authentic as well as feel more like the real deal; a plastic one can be left in the boot of your car or otherwise generally abused, without attracting all the scuffs and dents you'll get with metalwork. It would still be usable for learning the basic technique, fingering, harmonic series - just an allround knockabout bit of fun.
Bas Liebregts, I love my Yamaha YCR231S long cornet. I bought it used second hand on eBay and is likely from the 70’s. The build quality is so great that even 40 years later the valves and slides are perfect, and hardly require lubricant. I even bought another one for $30 with broken solder joints, and it still had wonderful smooth valves and slides. These instruments, are available for about $100, (don’t know about what it is in pounds,) and maybe a bit more for excellent condition. The lacquer version of this instrument, the YCR2310 is even more widely available. I would also advise a Japanese made one as the older ones made there have the best quality, (it will probably say Japan somewhere on the instrument or case, if you can’t tell ask the seller.) That would be my recommendation.
@@oliwitts lmao most trumpets are $1000-$5000
@@braeden90000 You can get second hand cheap ones for a lot less. Saxophones are worth more than trumpets plus if ita just a hobby thing then they dont need to get a peofessional one
In my case, the answer is an unequivocal no. I've been playing the same Bb trumpet since 1966 without repairs; and it still has all of its original parts. And it still plays as well as the day it was purchased for $190 (US). And it was purchased used, nevertheless. 😉
BTW: It's a Bundy designed by Vincent Bach and made in the USA. 😊 🎺 🎶
The other big question is what is their price point? Excellent instruments cost a pretty penny even used. You have to be prepared for the reality of the cost of a excellent instrument. So do your research and maybe contact your nearest professional orchestra to speak to one of the players (of the instrument you're interested in). Research and prepare is all I can suggest.
I started playing the trumpet in August(2018) and my mom got me a trumpet off of Amazon for a little bit over $100
Joshua Morehead, probably a Chinese no name brand. What have you thought of the instrument so far?
A Monette. Great student horn.
Given I haven't played at all because the Lark baritone I own aggressively sucks the life and joy out of every piece of music (including all funeral marches!), yes, I probably do need an upgrade.
A mint-condition secondhand student instrument will still be less expensive than a new instrument. It'll be easier to repair, be better built, and sound better. But if a new instrument (even a plastic one) motivates a student to practice, it's a fantastic bargain.
Very good videos Trent, but I must say, at least in the US most band directors want students to have begining horns instead of professional ones when they start. As you would know younger students might be a bit rougher on their instrument. As I am a trombone player and I started on a King superior Craftsman trombone with a 6.5 AL mouthpiece and after 4 years was moved to a King 3B f attachment trombone with the same mouthpiece. It all starts out with price, condition, who is going to play it, and their maturity level.
Thanks for what you do,
Parker
Teach them the wonderful world of euphonium
@Tabourba we're euphonium players. 😉
Catherine Willcox indeed
As a kid, I think I would've been fascinated by rusty, old instruments as long as they weren't uncomfortable to play and sounded decent. Pretty much all of my instruments were bought used with some dents and blemishes here and there... And all the ones I bought new are now used instruments with dents and blemishes here and there.
Some good points in the video, however something I would add is that the Chinese cornets and trumpets are not as bad as their reputation, although the bigger instruments really can be unplayable. It's also worth pointing out that the internet is awash with brass instruments made in India which are far inferior to the Chinese instruments. I have come across some cheap Chinese cornets which are perfectly suitable for playing in many British bands (some of the younger players in my own band have played them in competitions) however, once you get to anything bigger than a cornet, the quality really does start to deteriorate. I've seen tenor horns which simply cannot be played in tune. As for the Indian instruments (often branded Tristar or Three Star) these are unplayable. I own a TriStar four valve Flugelhorn which looks very nice, but the fourth valve slide was so short, it played an E rather than a D and was almost impossible to play a straight note with the mouthpiece it came with. Even with a longer fourth valve slide (which the seller provided free of charge after I commented about the original being too sharp) the tuning is criminal. It's ok for playing on your own at home, but as soon as you play with a band, the tuning really stands out.
Maybe not, but let's keep telling my family that I do.
Sound and playability are the most important things. If a little flaked off lacquer bothers you, maybe you are not that serious about learning your instrument and are just looking for an excuse not to practice.
I have an idea for a video: Beginning brass in an apartment setting with limited space and noise requirements.
all good points but which intrument woudl be easier to play, cheap Chinese or used better quality?
The 7b is 70 years old? I was thinking 40-50.
You can't go wrong with old quality. You can go very wrong with new junk.
How many instruments do you have?
Trent: Yes
Good video. I’d add that kids should be taught that an instrument can’t be completely judged by its looks. Ultimately a parent will likely purchase the instrument, and a used high grade instrument will resell more quickly and at a higher price than a new Chinese / India beginner instrument.
Whats wrong with old?
My French horn is a 47 year old h179 and my mellophone is 33 years old
Top tip: take your teacher with you when trying out an instrument you are planning to acquire
Is the jean paul trumpet actually good or was it just a commercial?????
1930s Martin Committee Trumpets.......its what I hoard and play.......
I like the idea of taking an old one and then sanding all the lacquer off... ya know, then showing all the vids with jazz professionals and their matte brass finish horns killing it on stage. Either that or getting an older silver plated one at an estate auction or something and having it restored! I have an over 100 year old cornet on the wall with silver plating and a few dings but the kids usually want to play that one first. Maybe I'm just persnickety meh
Somehow I just wasn't interested in playing the school supplied French horn after someone fell on the bell and flattened it like a pancake. Oh someone opened it back up so it could be played. But the bell looked just like a piece of aluminum foil that had been crumpled up into ball and then opened up again. I guess to an 8th grader looks do matter.
In a nut shell, good advice. I think I would add some comments. A. Price and quality are like a valley the high ground in one side are the better quality new instruments. The lowlands in the middle are cheap new instruments and older ones that weren't good when new. Damaged instruments lurk here. The opposite highlands are well made horns of the past which grade up to collector horns costing as much or more than new. B. Get advice from a teacher or good player as to what, where or from whom to buy. C. A good player can make a poor horn sound good because they can sort out their playing from the horn's sound. A beginner can't sort out their playing ability from the horn's capability and their learning curve is therefore torturous.
So I decided to upgrade to an F-Attachment trombone on a budget. I was able to acquire a Olds Ambassador with an F-Attachment. It is roughly 50 years old and I was a little concerned for my performance because of the age and it is worn. And let me say....I have never heard a instrument that plays better! The older instruments, if kept in semi-good condition and undergoes a little maintenance then it will play amazingly! It may not look the best but it is one of the best instruments I have ever played.
I'd take the older beaten up instruments over cheap and shiny ones, provided they were in working condition of course
Where can I buy that German Bach knockoff ?
As student instrument player I personally care more about sound not appearance because you can have some garbage looking instrument and it sound great, and a good looking instrument and have it sound terrible
Maybe a strange question but on which site did you buy your contrabass trombone? I’m seeking for one but i can’t really find something...
I've been playing trombone for just over 10 years now. I was finally able to get my own instrument at the start of my sophomore year of high school, so I didn't have to use a school instrument. I don't know much about it. I bought it second hand for a really good price and it is in great shape. Although, the lacker is not very good. However, that doesn't matter to me because I'm blind. It's not that the lacker is coming off, it's just very rough. I'm still using it in college. Although, I do hope to get a pro grade big bore tenner at some point, but that costs money that I don't have. Until then, my older one will do.
What is the piece at the end?
3:07
Some old horns are better than most new ones
Do you sell used baritone horns?
Hey Trent hope ur having a good day
Brent- You may also want to tell that parent that they could use that older trumpet as a test to see how serious they take the responsibility of playing an instrument they haven't played before and when they've proved they can take care of the older trumpet, and do well at it, then the parent can look into buying them a NEW trumpet
So now I've got a sort of related question: I play tenor trombone (with f attachment), but I want to be able to play much easier in the low register (F down to contra F). Should I get a tenor trombone with Hagmann attachment, or should I straight up buy a bass trombone, because I actually like the high register on my tenor very much.
I think it's a very tough decision and I can't really figure out the right way. Greetings from Germany - Uli
Just practice. You don't to buy things to extend your range when practicing does it for free.
@@salicional As previously stated, just practice! It'll become easier as you do it more; if you have the option, play some 3rd trombone. That'll really help you get comfortable since you'll be regularly playing within the ranges you wish to improve.
Side note: If you didn't know this already, extending your low range will also massively improve your high register!
The horn isn't really going to help you hit the notes, but mouthpiece might. You can play bass trombone notes pretty well on just about anything (even the 12C that came with your student trombone), but a larger mouthpiece will make the notes have a more stable sound and respond better. I use a Denis Wick 4BS on a Bach 36B trombone and, even though it's a medium bore tenor, the trigger notes are very full and responsive.
@@staritone3883 That's true, the mouthpiece could help a bit, but they can also be a bit pricey sometimes.
I play on a Denis Wick 6BL, tested a lot of mouthpieces, to find one I like. And practice does the thing to a certain point, but I've got an absolut standard f attachment and it really works against you in the low register, trust me, I've practiced a lot, it doesn't get easier, at least not easier anymore.
Trent: *specifically adresses a video to parents of young children*
also Trent: 3:05 *gestures with both hands gripping something in front of him* "So these are the sides that you sort of need to balance up, like two large melons."
Nice one Trent.
Do you have any suggestions for a student level, inexpensive tuba that I could purchase?
Depends on the kind of tuba, but my advice would be to buy second-hand. In the British Brass Band style, (3 top pistons, plus one side piston) good old instruments offer you >80% of what a new instrument would, particularly for Bb tubas and particularly if they're in good condition. Outside of the British style, I would imagine that European-style rotary valves, in particular, age even better than pistons, so second-hand might even be better, but I don't really know much about them or the American style.
New instruments are often a false economy, particularly for tubas. You often get poorer performance than good old instruments and they depreciate like crazy. For good old instruments, a ~£2000 refurbishment will probably bring them up to 30-50% of the value of a new professional-grade instrument, making them easy to sell on (and to buy in good condition). If you're dead set on a new low-cost instrument, I hear good things about Wessex Tubas. They manufacture in China but do their own design and quality control. I've never played any of their instruments, though, so I can't comment beyond that.
If you can avoid buying, though, I'd advise borrowing. If your band have an instrument, it might be a pain in the butt to play, but I'd advise sticking to it until you're ready to buy at least an intermediate-level instrument (again, consider second-hand professional-level instruments). Tubas are, to put it bluntly, bloody expensive. Expensive enough that it's better to do it once properly than to do it two or three times badly. I'd been a tuba player for 8 years before I bought - I bought a second-hand Besson Sovereign 982 Eb and we've been thick as thieves ever since. I want to buy a Bb (Bb tuba is my 'first instrument') but I know it's not worth spending any less than £8000, so I'm holding off until I'm sure I'm going to keep doing it for a decade or more.
Do you have a preferred website to buy used instruments on?
All I know is you roll the dice if you're thinking about eBay
generally speaking i feel you would be safer actually going into a music store
Eric Rakes see I am actually really good at repairing instruments if they are not completely totaled... and I’ve bought most of my instruments from there as well. I was just wondering if there were any that weren’t obvious
@@pharmdiddy5120 I know that's right
I love me some ebay. Make sure your search settings are for "worldwide". If you're looking for something a bit obscure, the best deals are usually from guys in Europe that don't even care what they're selling. Just know what you want and do enough research to know what you're getting (if you care).
Don't buy useless/obsolete horns unless you have space for them to reside. Don't buy anything without a mouthpiece unless you're seriously ready for that. Don't buy anything that doesn't look 100% playable if you're not prepared to repair it. Stuck valves and slides aren't scary. Small dents aren't too bad either. Anything else should scare you away immediately.
fastest thumb in the west
If it's a kid who's just learning to play, the better alternative might be to RENT an instrument rather than buy it. With a rental, you can afford a better instrument, and if it turns out the kid doesn't really like that kind of instrument you haven't mortgaged the house to buy it.
Oh, and most rental programs take care of long-term maintenance for you.
I’d say that if it plays well and is well-maintained, the older the better
I bought a Chinese silver-plated compensating euphonium for $1000 three years ago. The silver plating is in terrible shape. The valves stick. The horn looks worse than my 60-year-old silver Getzen trumpet, and that one was student-grade.
Next time I’ll look for a good secondhand Yamaha or something.
Cheap and expensive.
Or slap some sense into them and tell them to get a real job.
Trent! This is totally off topic but how did you feel about the 2016 flag referendum? If you were opinionated throw out your favorite and least favorite.
Pity the unfortunate parents of future low brass players. There are no fewer than four distinct instruments lumped into the "baritone" category, and they're not entirely compatible with one another in ensemble. Good thing they're all widely available on both the new and used markets. If you want to hear something dreadful, get a Bb Tenorhorn and (British) Baritone Horn together. Not sure what causes it, but it sounds really bad.
Don't forget Jupiter's bariphonium or an American baritone, both of which sound different from each other (Ameribari sounds clearer to my ears).
If you consider the European and American continental Baritones distinctly different, then yes. That's 5 (at least). Never had the chance to play a rotary Baritone to see if there's really any meaningful difference. I've heard people say they don't like the sound of British and American Euphs mixed, but I don't think it's as bad as the other example.
I disagree. When I stared playing years ago my dad started me on his old King Zephyr that he purchased in 1960. Did it look new? No, it did not. Did I care? No, I did not. Nor did I know what instrument any other kid was playing, or if it was new, old, or stolen. I also have a beautiful over 100 year old silver trumpet with gold leaves on the bell. Best looking trumpet I ever saw. Biggest piece of crap any trumpet player ever tried to play. Always go with quality over beauty.
I wonder if you watched the same video because it sounds like you agree with them
Brayden Kunkel who is them?
Just FYI, King didn't introduce the 7B until the 1970s, so that instrument can't possibly be 70 years old.
I’m just going by the serial number
Online serial number lists can contain some inaccuracies. Other than a few early custom examples, nobody in the US was making double valve bass trombones in the 1940s. Some of the big makers started experimenting in the late 50s and the independent setup didn't really take off until the late 60s.
@@Nick50B In that case the serial number must be 200,000 out. The serial number is in the 249,000's. Unless the serial number is wrong. It's clearly stamped though.
@@TrentHamilton I believe they restarted the serial numbers at some point. If you look at the serial number list on the Conn-Selmer site (www.conn-selmer.com/en-us/resources/serial-numbers/king-instrument-serial-numbers), it looks like they restarted at 100,000 around 1985-1986 rather that go to seven digits. There's some notes on horn-u-copia.net (www.horn-u-copia.net/serial/Kinglist.html) regarding post-1986 serial numbers. Looks like it's kind of a mess. But for a 7B? Definitely late 1970's or newer.
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