Today we're trying out one of the new JSA factions. Or more accurately, we're trying out the Old JSA Faction, with new hat and access to Yuan Yuans, because that's mostly what Ōban is. But what a hat! Between the Yuan Yuans and keisotsu actually being good now, Ōban's low-end troops are some of the best in the game, which leaves plenty of points free to strut around with the more elite stuff, which is why there's a TAG with a sword desperately pretending to be an O-Yoroi in this video's thumbnail.
Love getting to see such vids + hear your thoughts. I would also really like to see a Yu Jing (ISS, Vanilla) vs. Haqquislam as it's a matchup I need to learn real fast - one of my friends who got me into this game is a passionate Haqq player and I went with Yu Jing; thanks so much for all your hard work on these videos Robert and happy new year!
Seeing excitement about yuan yuans makes me happy. They have been my fav since n2 or thereabouts, when booty meant you could steal kit from dead minis (it was a hassle to handle, it's good that rule is gone).
I really like this battle report style! Much more insight and reflection over what happened each turn ❤. I also like the more immersive videos but I feel like I'm at infinity school here 🤓 Anyway I'm in for infinity content 😊
That was a fun battle report with a very tense, "everything's on the line" last order! Appreciate the work you put in! If you do a tunguska list, would you proxy a Tunguska Triggerman? I am having a hard time figuring out where to use them.
I've written a few tunguska lists, but they haven't been easy to feature. They aren't bad, but they aren't great either, and anything in N5 tunguska is fighting heavily for space against some very solid duo options. And they're S4? I'm still not convinced that isn't a mistake.
Very awesome batrep and a real nailbiter. Really curious how you feel about the Alpha strike potential in N5, since a lot of people appear all doom and gloom about it.
I still don't think I particularly like speedball, but I also haven't yet had a game decided by an alpha strike. If anything it feels like more games are going to T3. So that's promising, but it's very early in the edition.
Overall I like the battle reports. That being said I am a visual person and just trying to get into Infinity. Possible suggestion - perhaps have time-lapse photos and then follow suit with the explanation as to what is happening? I do understand this would require a lot more work though.
While I'd love to be able to do that, the unfortunate truth is that there's a strict limit to how much overhead I can manage to create these videos - both during the game and when recording. The format I use is optimised mostly for workflow and limiting the impact on my opponents during a game (an absolutely necessary politeness as these are my friends sitting down to play a game with me). There might be scope for other visuals in future and I have a few thoughts about what I might be able to manage, but they all have to operate under those fundamental restrictions. I do appreciate the feedback, though! But I thought it might be worth peering behind the curtain a bit. :)
Rob, I'd really love to see a bat rep with your take on a Vanilla YJ Su-Jian list. I've got an event coming up in March and am trying to work out how to make it fit. I have been looking at duoing the SuJian with the AP Hmg Shang Ji, so he can have a Tinbot firewall -6 alongside the Speedball bonus to run through hacking networks.
At 24:50 you mention that the vitapack saves the Sukeul from having to transmute. As far as I can tell that isn't the case. Wounds are dealt in 5.1 in the order expenditure sequence and then the vitapack and transmutation are triggered in 5.2 conclusion step. Transmutation just cares if a wound has been dealt, which it was in the 5.1 step. Is there another rule or paragraph that would clarify how this interaction occurs?
I outsourced this one to my local rules expert, who assured me that the timing in this case was favourable and prevented transmutation. I have happily not read the rules myself, but Inane_Imp is usually very reliable.
Because that speedball only triggers if you enter isolated/imm/stunned during an order - it has to be already on your trooper the turn you get hit. It's not good for repairs after the fact.
Addendum: there is the second sentence in switch on! I could and probably should feasibly have used that. I prioritised the wound on the O-Yoroi but Switch On may have been better.
@@R0bertShepherd With the possible exception of Protheion troopers, I've not been very impressed by stacking the extra wound on multi-wound models. It has a much larger proportional advantage for expensive, valuable, but single-wound active pieces - which I think are much more viable now because speedball exists. I much prefer Switch-On for multi-wound models because states can bypass those multiple wounds that they've paid for. Which I'd note is part of what happened to the O-Yoroi in this game.
@@corbeaubm switch-on is one I actively need to play with more and agree that it's probably the most impactful. I neglected it this game because I didn't realise I could it on the Shikami with another trooper, and because I assessed the O-Yoroi as immune to most of the isolation effects my opponent had - not thinking about the flash pulse, since it was a long way away at the time I called down the drop.
Seeing a Sukeul hmg decide to just tank a HFT (multiple times at that!) is wild - mine would put 0 wounds on the O-Yoroi and then proceed to burn to death lol Also, imo at least 1 Makaul is still needed - skipping on CC entirely is risky and leaves you exposed to being stuck in melee. Overall though interesting batrep to watch - some truly wild plays on Ed's side (putting so much faith in phero and actually getting some mileage out of it and the aforementioned HFT) sort of implies to me that Tohaa has to yolo a few things here and there to stay relevant
Ed is very good at risk calculation and triage. The Sukuel with both symbiomate and vitapack has a good chance of putting the O-Yoroi (out of cover, in breaker pistol range) down before dying. As it was, he came through with full health, but the odds were in his favour. Pheroware in the new edition is also *wildly* more reliable, thanks to benefiting from link bonuses. For myself I'm still running at least one Makaul, two if I can fit it - their utility is too high to entirely leave at home.
@@R0bertShepherd out of cover adds the missing element to the equation - in that case yeah, I think it makes sense. Definitely need to give our good 'ol Tohaa a spin, so far I have been enjoying the PanO privileges of using Draal tactics but with a good shooter
very nice and informative report! I find no information regarding pheroware tactics, apart from the chart in the N5 rules where I guess there is a mistake with the "technical weapon" mention, meaning BS attack (WIP). How are you using PT? Comms attack ignore cover, but BS attack (WIP) tells you to add all the modifiers, so you do add them all except cover? I am guessing mimetism would not apply either since PT has the NO LOF trait, correct?
I'm playing them basically as they were in N4, which is essentially identical to a jammer. Zone of control, BS attack using WIP, not affected by cover or mimetism but affected by firewalls.
I think I rate Keisotsu very slightly higher. I can get a really nice Keisotsu haris for 3 to 6pts cheaper than a Fennec haris doing the same kind of work, and the Keisotsu Thunderbolt can do better ARO work. It's very close though - it's just the cheaper total price that's tiebreaking it, as great as e.g. the discoballer Fenec profile is.
Hey, I haven't watched your Batrep yet.. I will.. but before I do I need to ask questions, regardless of the Army list's used. Why did CB give the Tānko Zensenbutai bot a Monofilament CCW and a Shock CCW.. they both have the same PS on the aforementioned model, and whatever a Shock CCW does, a Mono CCW does better.. I mean this made sense in N2 (where I was told you could roll dice for all CCW regardless of Burst(( 1 roll for each hand, essentially)).
In N4, having the second weapon made sense against units that the monofilament was superflous against or wasted against (single wound infantry for example) as it had higher damage. In N5 it doesn't seem to have much of a use case as they're the same damage these days. Maybe in case you don't want to kill some kind of multiwound model? For classifieds? Otherwise, it's just legacy equipment. I doubt it adds to their cost much at all.
Correct. Extra sources of burst consume extra sources of disposable - e.g. a Panzerfaust +1B or a weapon with doubleshot consume multiple disposable charges - but by default each weapon consumes one disposable per use of the weapon, not per burst fired. So a Taquel can Endgame twice before reloading.
At 24:45 ish you mention that the model took a wound but then heals from the Vita Pack before transmuting. Can you show me how you came to this conclusion? As I have been playing it the opposite which has been very nice for my fraacta. The ruling for Transmutation (x) is that the model must transform at the end of any order in which it received that number of wounds. The Vitapack only kicks in because you received a wound. But you did still receive a wound during that order. And the transformation trigger is not "has a wound on it" it is simply having received one during the order.
I asked someone I usually ask when it comes to rules, and he quoted the timing of resolution at the end of an order to me. My eyes glazed over but the gist was that the order of resolution is favourable to transmutation. I would note that this relies on interpreting "received wounds" as meaning having wound markers on them, rather than for example having taken that many wounds in that order. And I think that's the right interpretation as, by the other transmutation, some models might never transmute, since e.g. a Gorgos is almost never going to take 3W in a single order. So we need to read it as "at the end of any turn in which you have this many wound markers on you".
@@R0bertShepherd Thanks for the response. The rules as written, the Gorgos would transmute after it takes 3 wounds regardless of when those wounds happen. So in theory could take a wound, be repaired, take a wound, be repaired, take a third wound and transmute. Seems silly, but actually, Gorgos can't be repaired unless in an unconcious state due to it having VITA and not STR. However This issue would happen with something like the Maximus or the Iguana so I think your reasoning is sound. Bummer for Dog warriors but better for blackjacks I guess.
Today we're trying out one of the new JSA factions. Or more accurately, we're trying out the Old JSA Faction, with new hat and access to Yuan Yuans, because that's mostly what Ōban is. But what a hat! Between the Yuan Yuans and keisotsu actually being good now, Ōban's low-end troops are some of the best in the game, which leaves plenty of points free to strut around with the more elite stuff, which is why there's a TAG with a sword desperately pretending to be an O-Yoroi in this video's thumbnail.
Infinity is the only wargame I've found that leaves me physically exhausted after playing it, and I LOVE IT.
Great content Rob!
Excellent video as always! Oban really has had a glow up in n5.
Yuan yuans ate hilarious
Super hype for the shindenbutai video!
Love getting to see such vids + hear your thoughts. I would also really like to see a Yu Jing (ISS, Vanilla) vs. Haqquislam as it's a matchup I need to learn real fast - one of my friends who got me into this game is a passionate Haqq player and I went with Yu Jing; thanks so much for all your hard work on these videos Robert and happy new year!
Happy new year mate :)
Seeing excitement about yuan yuans makes me happy. They have been my fav since n2 or thereabouts, when booty meant you could steal kit from dead minis (it was a hassle to handle, it's good that rule is gone).
Great battle report and a nice game overall. Thank you!
Thanks! Great report and analysis.
I really like this battle report style! Much more insight and reflection over what happened each turn ❤. I also like the more immersive videos but I feel like I'm at infinity school here 🤓
Anyway I'm in for infinity content 😊
The more games I play (and watch) of N5, the more I like it.
Thanks Rob! 😘
That was a fun battle report with a very tense, "everything's on the line" last order! Appreciate the work you put in! If you do a tunguska list, would you proxy a Tunguska Triggerman? I am having a hard time figuring out where to use them.
I've written a few tunguska lists, but they haven't been easy to feature. They aren't bad, but they aren't great either, and anything in N5 tunguska is fighting heavily for space against some very solid duo options. And they're S4? I'm still not convinced that isn't a mistake.
@R0bertShepherd exactly. He kinda feels like the
Kids "can we get X?"
Mom, "no we have X at home" meme
Very awesome batrep and a real nailbiter. Really curious how you feel about the Alpha strike potential in N5, since a lot of people appear all doom and gloom about it.
I still don't think I particularly like speedball, but I also haven't yet had a game decided by an alpha strike. If anything it feels like more games are going to T3. So that's promising, but it's very early in the edition.
Overall I like the battle reports. That being said I am a visual person and just trying to get into Infinity. Possible suggestion - perhaps have time-lapse photos and then follow suit with the explanation as to what is happening? I do understand this would require a lot more work though.
While I'd love to be able to do that, the unfortunate truth is that there's a strict limit to how much overhead I can manage to create these videos - both during the game and when recording. The format I use is optimised mostly for workflow and limiting the impact on my opponents during a game (an absolutely necessary politeness as these are my friends sitting down to play a game with me).
There might be scope for other visuals in future and I have a few thoughts about what I might be able to manage, but they all have to operate under those fundamental restrictions.
I do appreciate the feedback, though! But I thought it might be worth peering behind the curtain a bit. :)
ROB VIDEO LETS GOOOO
Rob, I'd really love to see a bat rep with your take on a Vanilla YJ Su-Jian list. I've got an event coming up in March and am trying to work out how to make it fit. I have been looking at duoing the SuJian with the AP Hmg Shang Ji, so he can have a Tinbot firewall -6 alongside the Speedball bonus to run through hacking networks.
I'll have a tinker. :)
I think the Shikami is probably my favorite unit in n5. Literally thinking of buying into jsa just to play that model.
At 24:50 you mention that the vitapack saves the Sukeul from having to transmute. As far as I can tell that isn't the case. Wounds are dealt in 5.1 in the order expenditure sequence and then the vitapack and transmutation are triggered in 5.2 conclusion step. Transmutation just cares if a wound has been dealt, which it was in the 5.1 step.
Is there another rule or paragraph that would clarify how this interaction occurs?
I outsourced this one to my local rules expert, who assured me that the timing in this case was favourable and prevented transmutation. I have happily not read the rules myself, but Inane_Imp is usually very reliable.
Wanting to play Hassassin Bahram in a tournament come March. Was hoping if you had some time before then to play a match with them for some ideas
Yay Ed!
Great video! Thank you! One question: why did you not use the speedball to remove the isolated state from the Shikami?
Because that speedball only triggers if you enter isolated/imm/stunned during an order - it has to be already on your trooper the turn you get hit. It's not good for repairs after the fact.
Addendum: there is the second sentence in switch on! I could and probably should feasibly have used that. I prioritised the wound on the O-Yoroi but Switch On may have been better.
@@R0bertShepherd With the possible exception of Protheion troopers, I've not been very impressed by stacking the extra wound on multi-wound models. It has a much larger proportional advantage for expensive, valuable, but single-wound active pieces - which I think are much more viable now because speedball exists.
I much prefer Switch-On for multi-wound models because states can bypass those multiple wounds that they've paid for. Which I'd note is part of what happened to the O-Yoroi in this game.
@@corbeaubm switch-on is one I actively need to play with more and agree that it's probably the most impactful. I neglected it this game because I didn't realise I could it on the Shikami with another trooper, and because I assessed the O-Yoroi as immune to most of the isolation effects my opponent had - not thinking about the flash pulse, since it was a long way away at the time I called down the drop.
Seeing a Sukeul hmg decide to just tank a HFT (multiple times at that!) is wild - mine would put 0 wounds on the O-Yoroi and then proceed to burn to death lol
Also, imo at least 1 Makaul is still needed - skipping on CC entirely is risky and leaves you exposed to being stuck in melee. Overall though interesting batrep to watch - some truly wild plays on Ed's side (putting so much faith in phero and actually getting some mileage out of it and the aforementioned HFT) sort of implies to me that Tohaa has to yolo a few things here and there to stay relevant
Ed is very good at risk calculation and triage. The Sukuel with both symbiomate and vitapack has a good chance of putting the O-Yoroi (out of cover, in breaker pistol range) down before dying. As it was, he came through with full health, but the odds were in his favour. Pheroware in the new edition is also *wildly* more reliable, thanks to benefiting from link bonuses.
For myself I'm still running at least one Makaul, two if I can fit it - their utility is too high to entirely leave at home.
@@R0bertShepherd out of cover adds the missing element to the equation - in that case yeah, I think it makes sense. Definitely need to give our good 'ol Tohaa a spin, so far I have been enjoying the PanO privileges of using Draal tactics but with a good shooter
very nice and informative report! I find no information regarding pheroware tactics, apart from the chart in the N5 rules where I guess there is a mistake with the "technical weapon" mention, meaning BS attack (WIP). How are you using PT? Comms attack ignore cover, but BS attack (WIP) tells you to add all the modifiers, so you do add them all except cover? I am guessing mimetism would not apply either since PT has the NO LOF trait, correct?
I'm playing them basically as they were in N4, which is essentially identical to a jammer. Zone of control, BS attack using WIP, not affected by cover or mimetism but affected by firewalls.
@@R0bertShepherd that's so useful, thanks a lot!!
Also curious how you think the Keistosu stack up vs fennecs. Fennecs just have so many bells and whistles
I think I rate Keisotsu very slightly higher. I can get a really nice Keisotsu haris for 3 to 6pts cheaper than a Fennec haris doing the same kind of work, and the Keisotsu Thunderbolt can do better ARO work. It's very close though - it's just the cheaper total price that's tiebreaking it, as great as e.g. the discoballer Fenec profile is.
@R0bertShepherd I guess I just feel like the discoballer and the fastpanda offer way more than the hacker being really hard to kill.
@@zephyrrrr4813 points is points.
Hey, I haven't watched your Batrep yet.. I will.. but before I do I need to ask questions, regardless of the Army list's used.
Why did CB give the Tānko Zensenbutai bot a Monofilament CCW and a Shock CCW.. they both have the same PS on the aforementioned model, and whatever a Shock CCW does, a Mono CCW does better..
I mean this made sense in N2 (where I was told you could roll dice for all CCW regardless of Burst(( 1 roll for each hand, essentially)).
In N4, having the second weapon made sense against units that the monofilament was superflous against or wasted against (single wound infantry for example) as it had higher damage. In N5 it doesn't seem to have much of a use case as they're the same damage these days.
Maybe in case you don't want to kill some kind of multiwound model? For classifieds? Otherwise, it's just legacy equipment. I doubt it adds to their cost much at all.
@R0bertShepherd thanks.. that makes a bit of sense.
Did you play medkit vs Spotlight as a face to face roll?
We did - I whiffed the roll.
So tohaa gets 2 uses of endgame in active turn even though its burst 2? Ive been asking this question and getting mixed answers from people.
Correct. Extra sources of burst consume extra sources of disposable - e.g. a Panzerfaust +1B or a weapon with doubleshot consume multiple disposable charges - but by default each weapon consumes one disposable per use of the weapon, not per burst fired. So a Taquel can Endgame twice before reloading.
At 24:45 ish you mention that the model took a wound but then heals from the Vita Pack before transmuting. Can you show me how you came to this conclusion? As I have been playing it the opposite which has been very nice for my fraacta. The ruling for Transmutation (x) is that the model must transform at the end of any order in which it received that number of wounds.
The Vitapack only kicks in because you received a wound. But you did still receive a wound during that order. And the transformation trigger is not "has a wound on it" it is simply having received one during the order.
I asked someone I usually ask when it comes to rules, and he quoted the timing of resolution at the end of an order to me. My eyes glazed over but the gist was that the order of resolution is favourable to transmutation.
I would note that this relies on interpreting "received wounds" as meaning having wound markers on them, rather than for example having taken that many wounds in that order. And I think that's the right interpretation as, by the other transmutation, some models might never transmute, since e.g. a Gorgos is almost never going to take 3W in a single order. So we need to read it as "at the end of any turn in which you have this many wound markers on you".
@@R0bertShepherd Thanks for the response. The rules as written, the Gorgos would transmute after it takes 3 wounds regardless of when those wounds happen. So in theory could take a wound, be repaired, take a wound, be repaired, take a third wound and transmute. Seems silly, but actually, Gorgos can't be repaired unless in an unconcious state due to it having VITA and not STR.
However This issue would happen with something like the Maximus or the Iguana so I think your reasoning is sound. Bummer for Dog warriors but better for blackjacks I guess.