The Germans know who, why & what the Qur'an's all about!
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 7 сен 2024
- The Germans now know quite a bit about the Proto-Qur'an (that from which the Qur'an was derived), because they have looked at the Aramaic antecedents to the Qur'an and found from where it was primarily borrowed.
In this video Thomas explains who the Qur'an was originally primarily about when it was previously written in Syro-Aramaic, and it should come as no surprise that most of the numerous titles in that original Qur'an referred to Jesus.
He also pointed to the many outside influences, which came not only from Christian sources, but from Jewish, Persian, Buddhist, and especially Gnostic sources.
As to its purposes, it was written primarily as a commentary on the Old Testament Aramaic Peshitta, and the New Testament Aramaic Diattesseron (created by Tatian in 140 AD).
Even the word 'Islam' in Aramaic meant "in accordance with scripture", proving that was why the Qur'an was written.
Thomas also explains what the mysterious 'letters' at the beginning of the Suras mean, something Muslim scholars have never understood for the past 1400 years, primarily because none of them would have known Aramaic, nor even considered that may be the Qur'an's source. In Aramaic these letters were used as keys to refer to the different Psalms of David, so that the readers could know from which Psalm the liturgy of that text was being borrowed.
Even the word 'Qur'an' is derived from the Aramaic word 'Qeryan-a' which was the word for Lectionnary, a book used in the church for selected liturgical scriptures, as well as homilies about those scriptures, usually read during a Sunday church service.
Ironically Surah 12:1-2 in the Qur'an mentions that the Qur'an is really a lectionary, while Surah 3:7 delineates for the reader which were the canonical scriptures and that which was an apocryphal writing, which in the original Aramaic would have been a caution to those who were reading these lectionaries.
The contents of this video are pieced together from many different sources. Most of them only exist in the German language.
1) A lot comes from Karl-Heinz Ohlig‘s article called “Von Bagdad nach Merw” which was published in the book “Vom Koran zum Islam”
2) The Buddhist parallels come from Markus Groß’ article called “Buddhistische Einflüsse im frühen Islam“ published in “Schlaglichter: Die beiden ersten islamischen Jahrhunderte”
3) The Persian influences come from Ignaz Goldziher’s paper which was first published in French called “Islamisme et Parsisme” an English version of which is in the Book “Early Islam: A Critical Reconstruction Based on Contemporary Sources”
4) The Koran being a Christian lectionary is discussed in Christoph Luxenberg’s book which exists in English: “The Syro-Aramaic Reading of the Koran”
© Pfander Centre for Apologetics - US, 2021
(57,670) Music: "Travels" by Aleksound, from filmmusic-io
![[D] The QUR'AN, a failed BOOK WRITTEN by MEN, just like you & me!](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Bf5qCGZ1EcE/mqdefault.jpg)
![Megan Thee Stallion - Neva Play (feat. RM) [Official Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/TpYTyAaTRts/mqdefault.jpg)
I agree with this new hypothesis, it is backed-up by so many new proofs that previously unknown. And besides, the Germans do it. It is really mind blowing! If the Lord wills it, I'd really like to translate this series to Indonesian so that many Muslims will be saved from this cult.
Be carefull. Amen
This has been so interesting! Trust the Germans to do a thorough study on a difficult topic.
German made products; guaranteed quality
....until it breaks.
@@spiffinz chinese sub-components.
@@admin8784 wdym?
For who is unaware, Dr. Christopher Luxembourg is a Christian Syrian. Syriac Aramaic is still spoken in Syria in two towns mainly by Christians. The findings in his book are accurate and the early Quran or lectionaries were written in Syriac Aramaic and translated to Arabic, where you would find about 25% of the Quran still have Syriac Aramaic words in it. This is why the Central Asian Muslim so called scholars during the Abbasids misunderstood the meanings of the words in the Quran, they thought they were Arabic and until today by present scholars . Tragic example : 72 grapes vs. 72 virgins for those sexually deviant terrorists (isn’t mind blowing to learn God rewards sex to men, and heaven is nothing but a brothel with rivers of wine while God is watching all of this).
Another explosive finding is the first Surah #1, Surat Al-Fatiha in the Quran is word by word prayer translated into Arabic from the Syriac Aramaic Christians book of prayers. So Muslims today without knowing begin the prayers with surat Al-Fatiha with an old Syriac Christians prayer.
Please, can one get a link of that Christian book of prayers or the name of the book?
Can you provide the book or link to where it can be found..
I find it highly improbable that the promise of 72 raisins not 72 virgins would motivate a Muslim warrior to kill himself and many others in the course of a holy war.By the way the number 72 is not literal but signifies "a large number."
Well said.Dr Gabriel Sawma too has done a good job on the SyrioAramaic origins of the Quran.
@@terminateurextra-ordinaire3925 please watch this video. I am sure Brother Shant can help you get the sources.
ruclips.net/video/7RDT0DhipKo/видео.html
Jesus Christ bless Dr. Jay Smith and Mr. Thomas Alexander.
Love from Indonesian Christian...
Jay and Thomas- thank you for such an incredible insight into what seems to make perfect sense regarding the true origins of the Quran. The gnostic influence is so undeniable and so profoundly obvious that we just need to expose people to their original sources. Both of you need to rip this wide open- it would be amazing to see the pair of you team up down at speakers corner London and communicate it to the masses.
What a gift you’ve given us! Absolutely fascinating 👏👏
Thank you, I really appreciate it.
Manichaeism. He was born into a Gnostic Jewish-Christian sect called Elcesaites and then studied abroad and learned Buddhist and Zoroastrian teachings and traditions. He blended all of it together. When I see the Zoroastrian and Christian imagery used together I immediately think of Manichaeism.
He wrote in Syriac and his teachings were very widespread in the Aramaic speaking world.
Since the 90s, while in seminary, my readings of the Quran always ended in frustration...as a result I concluded that the book was written by a madman (possibly on drugs) with little education. I now see that the reason for my bewilderment is that all the antecedents to the books pronouns, and the meaning of the proper titles (of persons and things) had been lost when this Quran (Lectionary) was surreptitiously stripped of its sole reference: the OT and the harmonized Gospels.
Pre Nicene Christianity is not different from Nicene Christianity. The Church instituted by Christ started functioning at Pentecost. The teachings have not changed. The Arian Heresy was the reason that the Council had to be called .
exactly
Amen
I was hoping the clip would show some direct analysis of the pertaining scriptures (Arabic vs Aramaic).
The book "The Qur'an: Misinterpreted, Mistranslated, and Misread. The Aramaic Language of the Qur'an" by Gabriel Sawma PhD is also interesting.
I saw him being interviewed where he provided many examples of Arabic and Aramaic phrases. It would be great if he could be brought on board.
God bless Thomas, Dr. Jay and everyone involved in this quest for the truth.
Another fabulous presentation. How can a Muslim maintain the divine origins of the quran in the face of such evidence?
Kissing a black stone is Idolatry
@Constantine Mithras Refuted by a dawahist is worthless.
@Constantine Mithras No only "scholars" who depend on the Saudi pay check. They have zero credibility and zero integrity. I can't take you serious. You have made the dumbest collection of comments in the past few weeks that you are beyond a joke.
@Constantine Mithras argh Be gentle Mel this is just another RUclips novice cutting his teeth on behalf of the Dawah gang. He has a long way to go to catch up. We are concerned for Jason Bourne, little Jonny Wick and old John Wayne. Somebody said they had died. They certainly haven't been seen out to play for about three months. Regrettably there are different concepts of "Scholarship". Memorising Hadith and strings of verses from the 9th century Syrah cobbled together in the hope of creating a credible narrative does not cut it. The world is watching. At least Nero had a fiddle to play while Rome burned, the only credible evidence for Mecca are the remains of the old abandoned bingo halls. Meanwhile 23 million people on the edge of starvation in winter in Afghanistan. Tell us Constantine, Do you support the actions of your comrades in that country?
@@irishheritage893 "It's heavy man" but a little patience pays dividends.
I believe that the connection of city Merv in the early Islam formation in the late 7 century and on contributes the influence of Buddhism. Merv was once of Buddhist centre in Mid East.
I think a lot of the Islamic foundations are related to Manichaeism, which was pretty popular in the Aramaic speaking world in the seventh century.
This is much better.this is the best explanation I have heard
The biggest surprise to me was that the most violent anti-kafer verses of the Koran echo the Zoroastrian Avesta [26:30] where it wishes for the physical annihilation of the disbelievers whose very "substance" is impure and defiling! Guess, Salman the Persian gave the Arabs a few ideas other than how to win a battle by digging trenches.
Indeed. I’ve found this by reading Ignaz Goldziher, though I don’t think anybody has systematically analysed this connection yet, there may well be more.
Just by putting the Zoroastrian Fargard 5 from the Avesta next to the Muslim Surah 9 from the Quran, you immediately see some striking parallels.
@@TAlexander Thank you Dr. Alexander, I'm going to read up Ignaz Goldziher now.
@@olafshomkirtimukh9935 Please go ahead it may further help to unravel this dark mystery of the root of Islam. Waiting for your report. May the true God of heaven and earth guide you
I can't wait for Jay's book that summarizes all these findings.
Wow! True, Dr. Smith the information unpacked makes sense. Thank you Thomas.
Looks like Manicheism had a big influence on proto-Islam.
Manicheism was mostly influenced by Judaeo-Christian traditions with elements of Zoroastrianism, Buddhism & Sabeanism.
Buddhism had a significant influence in eastern parts of Persian empire ie. Afghanistan, central Asia, North-western India, up until 10th century.
Sabeanism had significant influence in southern Arabia, especially Yemen.
@Constantine Mithras You mean plotinos
@Constantine Mithras There is truth behind what you‘re saying. Augustine of course didn’t convert to Christianity because of Neo Platonist texts, but he did dabble in all of these things.
The take home message being that one of the smartest people of all time who was capable of understanding complex philosophical concepts eventually believed in the veracity of Christian teachings becoming one of the foremost theologians of all time, maybe only surpassed by Thomas Aquinas.
This ability to grasp complex thoughts while at the same time being open minded enough to not just stubbornly cling to the religion taught to him as a child is what distinguishes Augustine from the likes of yourself. But then I can’t really fault you for it. One can’t expect anyone to have the intellectual fortitude of a St Augustine.
@Constantine Mithras Christians in the time of Augustine of Hippo, also known as Saint Augustine came chiefly from all the various people around Mediterranean basin. They didn't have uniform origin and many of them and their bishops came from local populations. In North Africa this included Berbers. As I remember Berber origins of Augustine were never considered as something to be questioned.
Excellent presentation, great knowledge on Islam. Waiting in the upcoming videos, evolution from Christian heresy to Islam.
This seems a very reasonable hypothesis. Thomas is in accordance with Odon's work in the idea that the Quran is a lectionary, the main difference being whether it is authored by non-trinitarian Christians or the Quranic Nazarenes. Whoever the authors are, they were on the edge of the Christian world in Iraq, Persia and Syria. They were non-mainstream and had adopted influences from various sects around them. I guess the relations between the arabs and their teachers were severed, possibly around the time of the arab cobquests, and therefore the origin of the quran was either forgotten or purposefully obscured for political reasons. A mere lectionary rose to the status of a holy book probably partly because of a language barrier, and was later attributed to a mythical Muhammed.
Muhammed is also a title of Jesus.
You can wish this if you are a Trinitarian Christian. However, Quran clearly rejects this idea.
Surah Ibrahim - 4 - The Noble Quran
We did not send any messenger but (speaking) in the language of his people, so that he might clearly convey the message to them. So, Allah lets go astray whom He wills and lets find guidance whom He wills. And He is the Mighty, the Wise.
Also, you have the problem of Prophet Muhammad (SAW) being unlettered, his inability to read and write. And the challenge to Arab speakers to produce a verse or chapter like the Quran. Which was never met by Arab speakers of the time.
Another problem Trinitarians have is the inability to produce a Bible in Aramaic or Arabic carbon-dated to 700 AD- 780AD.
Also as a Trinitarian, you can visit the grave of Prophet Muhammad in Medina Saudi Arabia. He is the only major religious figure we know where his grave is! Jay is not a real scholar. Also as Muslims, we have the living descendants of Prophet Muhammad (SAW) alive today!! Who can trace their ancestry back to Prophet Muhammad (SAW).
Koran seems to be a mismatch of Jewish Apocrapha cultic Arian heresy and brought over from syranian aramic !
@@Ekim1740 could the Prophet and messenger been Jesus in Koran ?
@Constantine Mithras held by the Apostles Jesus claimed to be God on Earth and the Holy Spirit came at Pentacost !
This study just does a 180 in my thinking regarding Qur'an! And different perspectives is always a good thing.
@Hellium I take advantage of the word "Kafir" and teach non Muslims what it means, and what they actually CALL us non Muslims.
I very much look forward to the next video!
Credible hypothesis. It makes perfect sense as the origin of the Koran, Quran. yes, we are getting to rack the mystery. Thanks, T. Alexander and Jay Smith
What an insistence to show that who wrote a book.
Koran is caliphate written book hurriedly on the necessary basis to unite a very newly established empire substituting persian and Byzantine empires that were defeated by Arabs. They need a book that has not a writer but scattered preaching from all over Arabian land that have been kept in the memory of people who were old or being told right or wrong.
Nazirites also shave their heads and offer their hair as a sacrifice to God at the altar of the Temple of Jerusalem.
Also Nazirites abstain from wine and grapes
Odon, did you had the time to look into the sequel of the Nahrawan battle as i proposed? Does something very very essential and logic pops up ?.Simple logistics .Huge consequences. Very huge consequences. In fact THERE lays the basic for unwinding the all enchilada.
@@miguelsureda9762 The thing with this story is that we know very little apart from the Islamic tradition. As you know, Islamic tradition is very late, very biaised and cannot be taken from granted per se, especially concerning the very islamic-sensitive topic of the fitna. One has to compare it with other sources and historical studies, and to look into it with reason and a rigorous critique,
For example, that there were no muslims, no islam and no Quran at the time of this battle (should it have occurred). Only Arab factions that waged war against each other over their apocalyptic expectations and their claims to "divine" or "messianic" power. The actual historical Ali thought himself to be the Messiah, a kind of proxy for Jesus who did not come back in Jerusalem as he was supposed to. What does it make then of the Kharijites?
We also know from Sebeos' History of Heraclius that there actually were battles between "the sons of Ishmael" at this time. Here it is, taken from chapter 38, with mys commentaries between [ ] :
Then God sent discord into the army of the sons of Ishmael. Their unity dissolved, they clashed with each other and divided into four parts. One part was in the Indian area. Another was that army which held Asorestan [Mesopotamia] and the northern areas [might be the Umayyads]. Another was the one in Egypt and in the T'etal region. Another was in the Tachik area and at the place called Askarawn [the very name of Aisha's camel in the Islamic tradition]. They began fighting with each other and destroyed each other with endless killings. Now the troops who were in Egypt united with those in the Tachik area and they killed their king and took the multitude of treasures as loot. They enthroned another king [Uthman?] and returned to their places.
Now when their prince Mu'awiya, who was in Asorestan and was second to their king, saw what had happened, he united his troops and he too went to the desert. He killed the king whom they enthroned [Ali?], battling with and severely destroying the troops in the Tachik area. He then returned to Asorestan in triumph. Now the army which was in Egypt united with the Byzantine emperor, made peace and was incorporated [not in Islam's tradition]. The multitude of the troops, some 15,000 people, believed in Christ and were baptized.
But the bloodshed of countless multitudes increased and intensified among the Ishmaelite armies. They engaged in frantic battles and killed each other. Nor were they able to stop even somewhat from wielding swords, taking captives and intense battles on land and sea, until Mu'awiya grew strong and conquered all of them. He subdued them, ruled as king over the property of the sons of Ishmael and made peace with everyone.
What do you make of this? How does it interfere with Islamic tradition ?
@@OdonLafontaine ok Let me put it in the table.To go a bit faster. After the battle they wanted to discuss the murder of Ali and the 2 others. Where did they go to to discuss this ! MECCA ! But Odon, they are north of Ctesiphon !!! 2 months down ans 2 more months up again ????? Noway .So ,simple logic and simple logistic...Mecca is very very close THERE !!!!!!!! And NOW things become clearer and clearer and clearer. Follow that road and you will be surprised. Now force yourself to write down .,What are the next 10 logic questions that raise from that ?
@@miguelsureda9762 well, here is the very natural question that I have to ask you: would you please speak your mind instead of this game of cat and mouse?
@@OdonLafontaineSorry Odon. The reason why i contact you is because i have you in high esteem. i can only discuss it with pleasure privately. So if you would like to you can inform me through which way. I hope you understand why .
Thomas, you forgot the Mani Influences. That some sure in the Quran are mixes of Zaratustrian and Buddhism can be also go back to Mani.
Thank you. This is extraordinarily interesting and important research. I hope that a book on these matters will soon become available to all of us.
Thankyou great work
Waiting for more information
Excellent presentation and wonderful evidence. Thanks.
@Thomas: vielen lieben Dank, Thomas. Die Präsentationen sind sehr spannend und die Informationen sehr schlüssig. Es wäre schön, wenn man diese Informationen den Deutschen hierzulande zugänglich machen könnte.
So ziemlich alles was ich hier präsentiere ist in deutscher Sprache veröffentlicht. Das Problem ist nur, dass es auf viele teure Sammelbände verteilt ist.
@@TAlexander Vielen Dank für die schnelle Rückmeldung. Gibt es nicht vielleicht eine Möglichkeit, all diese Informationen zusammenzutragen, übersichtlich und chronologisch zu gestalten und dann zu veröffentlichen?
@@harrytomdick2401 Derzeit versuche ich alles niederzuschreiben, allerdings auf Englisch, denn die Publikation auf die ich mich stütze sind größtenteils deutsch und somit im anglo-amerikanischen Sprachraum noch unbekannt. Ich dachte, dass es ein leichtes sei nachdem ich all die Informationen zusammengetragen hatte. Aber das Projekt ist schnell eskaliert. Daran werde ich noch eine Weile sitzen. Wenn ich es verlegt bekomme kann ich evtl über eine deutsche Übersetzung nachdenken.
@Kilian Klaiber Stimmt, ich habe mir das Buch kürzlich bestellt, allerdings hatte ich noch keine Gelegenheit hineinzuschauen.
Wow, very informative. So Islam is a religion of mixture of every other religion. Obviously it’s fake and man made. Thank you for sharing 🙏
I always love the starting and end music of your videos❤️
this may sound like a random thought, but i know the orthodox churches still chant their liturgies in Byzantine tone. there is a cycle of 8 tones. i think of them like the modes of the major scale.
I wonder if alif lam min and other things like that at the start of suras are actually an old reference from the lectionary as to which tone was to be used with it.
Thank you Dr Jay for unleashing the Germans! Please bring out more such scholars and educators to enlighten us..
Thomas Alexander sir, The purification idea sounds more like the Brahminic Hindu untouchability/uncleanness rituals than Zorastrian ones?
Also the non-violence to insects is more vigorously kept by the religion of Jainism than Buddhism?
Thanks for the wonderful session
Thank you for the compliments. Regarding your questions, Zoroastrinism clearly has these purification rituals. But it’s always possible that there is additional cross-pollination at work.
And yes, Jainism is even more “extreme” than Buddhism when it comes to preserving insect lives. However, these traditions also exist in Buddhism and AFAIK, we have no evidence of Jain settlements west of India, something we do have for Buddhists. So the likelihood of Jains influencing the Quran is minimal.
Awesome research keep it going on and on into the rabbit hole
Thomas Alexander is still young BUT with so much knowledge ... What will he bring out more as he finds more facts! will be mind blowing! OR should we say Islam blowing?
Perhaps if a few examples of old lectionaries were made available for Muslims to compare with the Qur'an it would help them to grasp the argument in the video.
In the sources part, no mention of the Dhul Quarnain (Alexander the Great) verses in the quran, which came from the Alexander Romance literature.
Dhul Quarnain is Cyrus the Great.
He was mentioned in the bible too.
See his Two horned hemhem crown on Wikipedia
If the earliest Qurans were written in Aramaic, would that be a hint as to why they were destroyed and Uthman compiled a standard version in Arabic, I wonder.
This makes so much more sense than anything else. Now how did it get from that to destroy the Jews and Christians? That has to be a much later development.
Yes, where did the hate and violence get added?
We’ll get into the evolution from Christian heresy to Islam in the upcoming videos. It’s a long story. One thing to note is that these Syrian anti-Trinitarians were very anti-Jewish to begin with. In this Video I also did highlight some parallels with Zoroastrianism concerning some of the worst parts of the Quran.
But you also have to remember that the most hateful elements are actually not in the Quran but in the Sunnah.
@@TAlexander "the most hateful elements are actually not in the Quran but in the Sunnah" and the quran says to follow the sunnah!
@Constantine Mithras The Trinity was established theology before the 1st Century. It's recorded in the Aramaic Targums, which is where John the Apostle gets the phrase "the Word". Check out "Two Powers in Heaven" by Alan Segal.
@Constantine Mithras Here you are again and you will run away again when your feet are held to the fire. To date, you have never answered any real challenge and never provided any real reference for your bombastic assertions. But then how can we expect any different! We can see that cooking up a name based on a long-dead emperor and a pagan cultic god doesn't impart either knowledge or wisdom or courage.
Thank you Mr Smith and Thomas for your excellent work and great knowledge on Islam and for sharing it with us, may God bless you abundantly. Deus Vult. 🙏✝️
@Constantine Mithras and it's working very good.
@Constantine Mithras wow, what logic.
If it's online, then it's not working.
Sometines i think that you are Zakir Naik.....
@Constantine Mithras Islam have no korään from uthman after he burned the things that he didn't like, how come? This is a catastrophe!
@jazzymiles miles which korään should I read if I want to read the "real" korään? There's so many to choose from, I'd like to read uthmans korään but that one is nowhere to be found...
@jazzymiles miles you are so fragile and insecure about your korään that you need these ridiculous mass psychosis readings, you know that your books and scripts are being available and translated with every day that passes. The standard narrative just doesn't hold any longer.
Amen. How wonderful. I think any honest reading of the Quran by someone with a well based Christian background can instantly recognize it is book written by a prophet with a message for the christian and the Jews to return to the worship of the one true God, YeHoVaH! Thank you so much for this wonderful work!
We have a Syriac chant song itself called Baru Mariyam means Son of Maryam.
Bar Mariam
Bar Mariam Bar Mariam
Bar Aalaaha yeldas Mariam
Aavee saukke Bar Mariam
Ak niviyoosa Bar Mariam
Qandesh mayya Bar Mariam
B’mammodeesee Bar Mariam
Eekal pes’ha Bar Mariam
Am thalmeedavu Bar Mariam
Shandar Rooha Bar Mariam
Paareeq-letha Bar Mariam
Shuw-ha lashmak Bar Mariam
Min kol poomeen Bar Mariam
L’alam almeen Bar Mariam
Ammen wammen Bar Mariam
The truth is slowly being uncovered!
This lecture material from Thomas is both informative and insightful in view of Gunter Lulling's material
So if Mohammad made a religion from a reference book, we are left with Islam being Arab Tribalism not an Islamic religion.
I love it Jay, thanks a lot to both of you guys.
Thanks Jay for getting Thomas and valuable insight from the German scholars.. After listening I just felt there are more than one Gabriel n Allah as present day Quran is I influenced many teachings..God Bless you Both
On the end the Quran was in the beginning a lectionary for christian and might be used in make surmons and "sunday school" and included reference to sources the Roman church dismissed. I heard often the argument that Islam came from the Adrianic theology which was dismissed by Concile of Nicea. But those people didn't just vanished, right. And so the made there own lectionary which was handed by generations to generations and like the believers in Mani became one part of later base of believers in Islam maybe.
Regarding friday prayer, note whats written in chapter 62
1) call for prayer - Syrian Christians used to call before prayer from church or Monastry using a kind of wooden bell. See there is no mentioned that call of prayer is vocal.
2) Day of Friday - Whats specialityof day of Friday? Its the day Lord Jesus suffered.
3) Why after noon the prayer - Its the time Jesus was on Cross & died.
4) Rememeberance of God - In Eastern Churches friday afternoon is a time for prayer in Churchs.
5) Disperse after prayer and do job = Friday is a working day for a Christian because his off day is Sunday. So this friday prayer will be a short break and after the prayer the person should go after his business and his business will recive bounty.
Its a just plain and simple. The friday prayer is remembrance of God for his sacrifice of Son Jesus Christ.
Its the only remembrance. The word rememberance in this chapter can only justify by that.
This is much better. So far there have been lots of claims about influences on early Islam. This presentation lays out a good number of specific such influences. This doesn't differentiate it much from early Christianity or Judaism, both of which demonstrably have earlier, outside influences on them, but it begins to put the deconstruction of early Islam on the same basis as them. Thanks.
What a Thanksgiving present for our Muslim brothers and sisters! Another critical information is finding how these lectionaries fell into the hand of Abdul Malik bin Marwan, and turned it into Koran after placing Muhammad’s character on it. 😱
Greetings sir, from India
Can't wait to see this all unpacked! Please give us all the sources and show us where we can direct skeptics to look them up.
VERY, VERY INTERESTING !!! THANK YOU AND GOD BLESS YOU BOTH !!!
Nice meeting Thomas Jay.
All those who are bent on believing the lie, you can just imagine how angry they are, grinding their chops in anger that hundreds of thousands are viewing this material and will be influenced by it, *including a great many Muslims* who already know Islam is a pack of lies and don't want to spend their lives living a lie. This series is beneficial for many.
Thomas amazing presentation !!!!
Thank you. I really appreciate it.
7:37 The sole questions to pose are: What is the point of saying the contrary of the Christian faith in Arabic? Who is it for? And why in the 7th c.? Why not before?
I’m not sure I fully understand your question. But as you will see in future videos, the Quran didn’t materialise out of thin air. There is a long tradition that preceded it.
One suggestion I’ve heard is that the Arabic rulers were opposing the Eastern Orthodox Byzantines to separate their empire from the Byzantine secular influences.
Thank you very much Thomas and Dr Jay for all the sessions. Just a question please, if the Quran is made up of lectionaries, who was helping write the Quran or qiryana? Could it be the judeo-Nazarenes; who believed in Jesus as the Messiah; who helped translate some verses from the Aramaic to Arabic?
In the next video, I’ll tackle the question of who wrote the Proto-Quran. Little teaser: I don’t think that it was Jewish Christians. While their christology would certainly fit the bill, they were more or less a non-factor from at least the third century onwards, only existing in tiny, isolated communities and by 700 AD, they were completely extinct. But there’s a better fit, another group which had virtually the same christology, which hated the Jews however and which existed in numbers.
What is 9 and full of SIN?
A full grown woman on consumation night
@@TAlexander
CONGRATULATIONS
#SAVEMASJIDILAQSANOW
NO TO THIRD TEMPLE ON TEMPLE MOUNT
Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 105:
مَّا يَوَدُّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا مِنْ أَهْلِ الْكِتَابِ وَلَا الْمُشْرِكِينَ أَن يُنَزَّلَ عَلَيْكُم مِّنْ خَيْرٍ مِّن رَّبِّكُمْ وَاللَّهُ يَخْتَصُّ بِرَحْمَتِهِ مَن يَشَاءُ وَاللَّهُ ذُو الْفَضْلِ الْعَظِيمِ
Those who disbelieve from among the followers of the Book do not like, nor do the polytheists, that the good should be sent down to you from your Lord, and Allah chooses especially whom He pleases for His mercy, and Allah is the Lord of mighty grace.
Surah Al-Maeda, Verse 33:
إِنَّمَا جَزَاءُ الَّذِينَ يُحَارِبُونَ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ وَيَسْعَوْنَ فِي الْأَرْضِ فَسَادًا أَن يُقَتَّلُوا أَوْ يُصَلَّبُوا أَوْ تُقَطَّعَ أَيْدِيهِمْ وَأَرْجُلُهُم مِّنْ خِلَافٍ أَوْ يُنفَوْا مِنَ الْأَرْضِ ذَٰلِكَ لَهُمْ خِزْيٌ فِي الدُّنْيَا وَلَهُمْ فِي الْآخِرَةِ عَذَابٌ عَظِيمٌ
The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,
(English - Shakir)
via iQuran
ruclips.net/video/WRFS2NS_oOI/видео.html
@@TAlexander thank you. Looking forward to the next lecture.
@Constantine Mithras . Stop delving into what you do not know my friend. You don't know the Bible and you are falsely accusing the Bible of being anti-Semitic/ anti-jewish. You are a Muslim thinking that the Bible is like Hadiths and Qur'an where jews and christians are seen as the worst of creatures to be persecuted, subjugated and killed!
I trust Germans...they know what they're doing.
I can't imagine any bigger evil than pretending to care ultimately for humans, but then have someone else tortured to death in ones stead when things turn sour, leaving all thinking it was he who died because of our evil.
But of course, studying human consciousness from before Christ, makes it obvious that they at that time would struggle immensely more with the concept of loosing and being humiliated not being proof that one is neglected by the divine, which a prophet wouldn't be, much less God himself. So I can see the rational mind spinning wildly to solve the mystery, and coming up with the only answer that makes sense, that it was really someone else.
Thanks brother we need to go deeper is fascinating the truth shine bright
Thank you Thomas & Jay...God in Jesus Christ bless you 🙏🥰
Thank you Thomas, for exposing the "similarities" with beginnings of other faiths" and current practice of other religions. There are similaries with Hinduism like 7 times circumambulation and wearing of white garb for pilgimages. Can you study and expose all the things copied from Hinduism. There is also similarity of the black stone and lingam in Hinduism.
As far as I‘m aware, circumambulation used to be practiced in Buddhism as well.
In fact, we have an early 8th century description of the Buddhist pilgrimage site Nava Vihāra in Nowbahār (modern day Balkh in Afghanistan) which matches the the descriptions of the early Kaaba. It had a stone cube, draped with cloth in the centre and the pilgrims would circumambulate and make prostration. Bactrian temples typically had platforms with stupas on them.
As for Hinduism, while ideas can always spread along trade routes, we have no evidence of Hindu communities west of India, we do however have Buddhist communities there. That’s why I believe it to be more likely that any Indian influence on Islam came via Buddhism. But it’s very possible that Hindu practices did influence Buddhists who in return influenced the Quran, though I’m no expert on Indian religions to be honest, so I wouldn’t want to say for sure.
@@TAlexander You have made real sense to us here. Something serious and ground breaking and shaking is coming up. If Hinduism and Buddhism predate Islam , this seriously indicts and implicate Islam. We are following up with you from Nigeria. Am asking christian leaders here to listen to your presentations. God bless you Sir
It’s all here: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nava_Vihara
God bless you in your work, Thomas. In Jesus name, Amen.
Jay keep bringing these fact filled videos to us.
Interesting topic; the pieces of the story is coming together bit by bit.
I would like to ask a question on this forum if I may: Anyone who knows where I can have something translated from English to Aramaic? It is a prayer and it's the phonetic pronunciations I'm looking for. Any suggestions will be very much appreciated. 🙂
I believe Thomas did his research well,thanks Dr. J,EVEN THOUGH IM R.C.C. I STILL LEARN PLENTY!
Huge thanks !
Hello Thomas, you mentioned Tertullianus and Lactantius. What is the name of the book by Volker Popp, where I find that.
The Lactantius influence was established by Genevieve Gobillot in an article in the Book: "Schlaglichter: Die beiden ersten islamischen Jahrhunderte“
Popp‘s article on Tertullian is in the same book.
@@TAlexander Vergelt's Gott!
Wow makes so much sense…I want to learn these ancient languages…
This only confirms what Islam says about itself, as a continuation of the previous monotheistic religions coming from the same source, confirming the same teachings. Mr. Thomas has not discovered anything new.
But this doesn't mean Islam is a plagiarized religion. It means Islam and its predecessor religions all came from Allah the almighty, the same God of the universe.
I'm an atheist and my aim is not to defend Islam or any other religion. Okay, so the Quran is not original .
Islam appears 600 years after the birth of Christianity so off course it has borrowed from its predecessors. How original is Christianity? Is it not all mythology borrowed/plagiarized from ancient Babylonian and Egyptian mythologies among others? This is my first exposure to the two gentleman's work and therefore I don't know if they have done critical studies of Christianity and the Bible.
As an atheist I urge everyone to watch many videos available on RUclips from scholars such as Dr. Richard Carrier and Dr. Robert Price among many others.
Thank you.
Thomas is reporting on the Proto Koran and the "original purpose" of the Koran but at the same time we hear from Thomas and from Odon about interpolations, later insertions. Odon has posited that the Ur Koran was a Nazarene Jewish lectionary. Thomas is pointing out seeming Gnostic, Zoroastrian and Buddhist sources for some of the Koran. Clearly such contradictory material is hard to piece together.
Was there an Ur Koran with a simpler source, one coming from a single ideology? And over the course of the 7th Century these disparate sources mentioned by Thomas were added?
This is a different question from the one we might think of relating to the SIN: interpolations of the Abbasid period that would have been added to clean up unacceptable passages.
This seems to add up to an jigsaw of literary layers, in some ways similar to the Old Testament studies on the Torah sources. But while the Torah sources (Eloist, Jahwehist, Priestly, etc) are all Jewish, here we have to wonder at the seeming syncretization of varied religious traditions.
Last thought: in some ways, this mixing of so many different sources lends credence to a guru figure as the sole source of the main text. How else could such a blending be justified or even endeavored? And the figure of an Arab merchant whose business brings him into contact with diverse traditions might plausibly explain why such ill-fitting sources have come together. That charismatic traveler would impart his broad knowledge to a more ignorant band of followers, who would accept these surprising new teachings under the guise of divine revelation.
Reality is often a bit messy and there are no easy answers. However, the argument I’m developing over this video series does home in on a very specific group: an anti-Trinitarian, Arab/Aramaic Christian group.
Despite the influences pointed out in this video, I wouldn’t describe the (Proto-)Quran as a syncretist book. Most of these influences don’t have much bearing on the theology as such, though the Gnostic examples here are of course an exception. But as I said in the video, I think that this was mostly an accident, not deliberate. The importance of these examples is however twofold:
1) It once again shows that the Quran is a man made book with flaws and all.
2) It allows us to further home in on the actual origin of the Proto-Quran. It must have been written in a place, where all those influences were present. That will be the next video.
Impressive work, very nice.
Could Thomas clarify surah 9:5 etc. please, I get the impression it means from what he said that you can just kill unbelievers, even if it is not wartime?
PS wonderful power point, lots to take in
Well, I can’t speak to the meaning of 9:5. Meaning is something that is subjective to the reader.
What I can say is what is literally written there and that is that outside the sacred months, one should kill them, ambush them, and besiege them. No war necessary.
@@TAlexander Thank you Thomas, much appreciated
Maybe the stuff about it referring to Jesus is quite strong.. In another video with Jay, this guy mentioned about the white grapes..but what is a white grape?! I've seen green grapes and red grapes but never seen a white grape. Is a white grape something that didn't exist on earth but that men dreamt about? Maybe the quran was written by a woman then that didn't understand men?!
Thank you for your work. This finally makes sense of Islam for me.
The other way of looking at it is - those sources you named are also confirming the same concepts.
Can also say: if that’s the truth then it may exist in many sources
🤔
thank you Thomas for that overview..I just wished that your slides inlcluded more references to the sources and more content..like where can we find that reference of the gnostic example of Adams creation in barthalamew and of Luxenberg..rock on.
wow!
Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Galatians 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Thank you for the explanations, fantastic, however, there are some parts that I'm still struggling to understand, glad if you can help:
1. Muslims often said each prophet brings their own divine book from heaven, is this mode of thinking was borrowed one out of 5 religious sources you mentioned earlier or something else?
2. Do you have an explanation on how this Qeryan-a transformed from a liturgical book, highly elevated into something that is co-eternal with Allah?
3. Can you repeat on the "opening letters" explanation please? do you mean "Alif-Lam-Mim" is some sort of a tune-key that was sung before recitation, to get standardized vocalization? or it related to the grouping of liturgy? also, Jay mentioned that some sort of "ALM" also exists in psalms, can you give examples, Jay?
1. I have not come across such a connection.
2. I can only speculate here. First of all, we have a pretty good idea how the lectionary became scripture. That will be discussed in future videos. But the step from scripture to eternal word is speculation. I could see a connection to the Christian Logos. Maybe instead of applying it to Jesus, early Muslims then took it literally to be the word of God.
3. Yes, I was a bit brief on this issue. I was also missing some key details. I will need to address this in detail in a future video. Too complex for the comment section.
@@TAlexander Thank you for the enlightenment...
The Quran is a reminder of the Torah+the Gospel, written by a Rabbi-Priest. But islam as a religion, has become the global ONE. Islam, as a religion, is living, and continue to absorb the other religious informations while expanding it's territory.
A dying Man made religion.
Absolutely amazing - God bless
This is the sort of 'deep dive'
Yasir Qadhi ought to do.
Sadly, he has chosen to hide behind his imaginary 'red line'
to avoid the issue.
There are many who to go to great lengths to complicate and validate Islam when the truth lies in the simple investigation of its founder and his claims to fame. Why not find the answers to questions such as:
1. Who was the so-called prophet Muhammad? What was his real name? Why did he not use his real name in his ministry? What was his family background? Weren't they Qureshi who were a pagan community?
2. It is learned that he suddenly became a "prophet" at around age 40 claiming the angel Gabriel or Jibril appeared to him in a cave. Has anyone proven that this appearance indeed happened in a cave and it was indeed the angel Gabriel who appeared to him? No. In fact the Quran itself narrates he didn't even ask who appeared to him and why, and that it was wife who was at home who decided it was Gabriel he saw, how? By undressing herself! And why in heaven's name would our Most High God send his holy angel to appear to a man in a dark filthy cave where this pagan goes to relieve himself?
3. The Quran is full of verses that are filthy and abominable that their prophet either committed himself or condoned, how can he be a messenger of a holy God unless he was misrepresenting God and acting on Lucifer's behest instead? Even their story of creation is a joke and inconsistent too. The entire book is a bad joke this is why none of their scholars could credibly explain the verses and makes Islam apparently indefensible.
4. The fact of the matter is, anyone in his right mind who reads the Quran and their library full of hadiths, many they even claim are "weak", will not stay a Muslim - IF you are in your right mind because their anonymous founder clearly, obviously wasn't.
I challenge any Muslim scholar to call Christian Prince who can show you all the abominable Quranic and hadithic verses, all supposedly "sahih", to prove him wrong.
The flames on the baby jesus could easily represent the holy spirit and fire
Many thanks to Thomas and Jay for this presentation and all the work behind it. I think that, regarding circumambulation and head-shaving, Paul Ellis may have provided a more likely origin than Buddhism in his PfanderFilms video “Mecca copied Jerusalem, in Paul's 12 Parallels!” Paul observed that “the circumambulation 7 times around the Kaaba in Mecca is the same 7 times around the ‘Holy of Holies’ in Jerusalem, and in the same direction, counter clock-wise.” (As the Jerusalem Temple had been destroyed, there would be nothing in contemporary Jewish practice to associate with this, but circumambulating ( _ṭawāf_ ) around the Ka’ba is mentioned in Quran 2:125 without detail.) In Buddhism, head-shaving relates to ordination into a Buddhist monastic community, which seems an irrelevant practice for Muslim householders; Paul proposed that “head-shaving at the Hajj comes from the head-shaving in Jerusalem by those men taking the Nazarite Vow”, the word _Hajj_ being like the Hebrew word _C’Hag_ for the pilgrimage feasts at the Temple in Jerusalem. If these elements of Paul’s “Jerusalem Thesis” do point to the origins of these practices in Islam, it would be interesting to know how practice details were carried forward from more ancient times.
Thanks for all references. Slowly the puzzle ot the origin starts to come more clearer.
A while ago I caim across a reply of someone who interpreted the "day of rememberance" and the call for it as follows:
I his explanation whit in mind Islam did not exit yet the call for prayer was done wit the wooden bell used by Christians and that it, since it wasn't the Sabbath yet, the prayer held together was to remember the crucifiction of Jesus.
To me it sounds plausible too however I am not an historian
Many Abdools copy pasting here, they must be desperate
Also its very fascinating the meaning of Muhammed the praise one fits correctly as a title to Jesus. Yehshua.
💐✝️💐🙏👍
28:20 Purpose: commentary on scripture. Well I do not agree on this: it is not a commentary, it is a rewriting of famous episodes of the scriptures (Old and New Testament) to ground the Quranic theology with an heavy use of parabiblical and extra canonical writings (Apocrypha Gospels, Talmud, Midrash, etc.)
Watch in that case too, Walter Veith “ THE islam connection”.
Always remember the word
Became flush mainly to liberate the captive souls bound by evil , and salvation to the living who believes in him .
What is the name of the book and the writer, is it available on Amazon?
The contents of this video are pieced together from many different sources. Most of them only exist in German language.
A lot comes from Karl-Heinz Ohlig‘s article called “Von Bagdad nach Merw” which was published in the book “Vom Koran zum Islam”
The Buddhist parallels come from Markus Groß’ article called “Buddhistische Einflüsse im frühen Islam“ published in “Schlaglichter: Die beiden ersten islamischen Jahrhunderte”
The Persian influences come from Ignaz Goldziher’s paper which was first published in French called “Islamisme et Parsisme” an English version of which is in the Book “Early Islam: A Critical Reconstruction Based on Contemporary Sources”
The Koran being a Christian lectionary is discussed in Christoph Luxenberg’s book which exists in English: “The Syro-Aramaic Reading of the Koran”
I probably also had quite a few other sources which I can’t remember of the top of my head, but those are the important ones.
@@TAlexander we know that it may not be safe for book authors that write something to the detriment of Islam. But perhaps one day you can write a book in English that sums up the scholarly books in German language. I think it would be a great contribution to research of Islam's historical origin. I've listened to Luxenberg's only RUclips recording. It was fascinating to learn about his findings. Anyway, we'll look forward to watching your next videos with Jay! Thank you for sharing! Be blessed..
@@blusky7 As it happens, I’m currently writing down all my results in English including all the sources. The content will be similar to my presentations here, but I’m going into more detail, providing more examples and expanding upon the context. It is a massive undertaking and I haven’t yet looked for a publisher, but I’m definitely planning to publish it one way or another. I’ll self-publish it in case I don’t find a publisher willing to print it.
@@TAlexander God speed
@@TAlexander what an incredible calling you have been given and what a profound influence you will have in the lives of many. I hope you know how important your work is - it would be a privilege to read your book one day and be able to piece all of this information together in one narrative. We really are in the age of discovery for Islam, regardless of the struggle and pushback.
Alle sagten, das geht nicht. Dann kam Einer, der wusste das nicht, und hat’s einfach gemacht.
Appreciate you Jay and all those who seek truth against the hordes
Time for the Arabic/ Islamists/Muslims to make comments: …Do you know your own Qur’anic development and History?
In the first slide it had 5 pillars.
Buddhist influence may come from Abbasid trades with east Asia
The Seleucid. Parthian and Sassanid empires incorporated Buddhist peoples along their eastern frontiers and that allowed for the influence to arrive in Mesopotamia, the capital and heart of those Empires. Babylon was a center of Judiaism and many of the non-orthodox sects that were persecuted ended up having peoples migrating out of Roman Syria to Mesopotamia to avoid persecution. Monasteries and monasticism in Christianity probably evolved from this sort of thing in Buddhism and Hinduism where that kind of thing was common place to facilitate meditation in an effort to achieve nirvana or union with the godhead and escape from earthly suffering. This kind of suggest that Mesopotamia was a kind of melting pot or mixing bowl for ideas from the east and the west.
Thomas there are many things you say that are blatantly incorrect. Dr Jay this does not reflect well on your otherwise excellent channel.
1. Dr Jay, if Thomas says the Quran depicts pre-Nicene christianity, what then is the date of the Quran? I have asked this question before. Recall in Sura 19:29 Maryam is called sister of Aaron (the brother of Moses). This makes Moses the uncle of Jesus. Impossible? The Maryam of the Quran is not Mary. Maryam is the Hebrew Miriam - who was indeed the sister of Moses (in the Hebrew Bible)
2. Jesus is not the person most referred to in the Quran. That person is Moses, referred over 136 times by name. Second I believe is Abraham - his name is mentioned 69 times. Jesus is mentioned 25 times. If you wish to include 1st person and 3rd person mentions then Moses and Abraham are mentioned even more times as well.
3. There is no noun form muhammad in the Quran. What is mentioned are the adjectives muhammadun and muhammadin. 33:40 does not refer Muhammad. In 33:40 'Ma kaana muhammadun' means it is not praiseworthy..There is no noun form Muhammad. And the other three occurences 3:140, 47:2 and 48:29 do not refer Jesus either.
4. I hope you can give the verse references for the so called titles for Jesus in the Quran. I dont think they are all found in the Quran at all. Khalifah is certainly not a speaker for god. Khalifah is representative. Neither is vali-allah a god's representative.
5. hadi and mahdi are derivatives of huda (guide/guidance)
6. Sura 62:9 min yaumi al jumuuati is not Friday. yaumi al jumuuati means 'from the day you congregate'. Also please note the Arabic days of the week Ahad (Sun), Ithnin (Mon), Thalatha (Tues), Arbaa (Wed), Khamsa (Thurs) and Sabta (Sat) are the first SEVEN numbers in the Arabic numerals. The sixth day of the week ie Friday was called Sittah (Six). But they changed it to Jumaa (Friday) which is NOT an arabic numeral. Obviously they changed Sittah to Jumaa later.
There is more but I am tired.
And pictures don't lie, just like rocks don't lie!
Rocks don't talk neither.
@@umarmujaahid1136 but what is printed on them does! A clock doesn't tell you the time, but you read what it shows, the bible nor Koran doesn't cry out, you have to thoroughly read it, not be told by someone else!