I've been a bricky for 25 years, I predominantly do new build site work. The industry made us all self employed back in 2010, no holiday pay, no pension, no job security. We're picked up and dropped at their whim constantly. Ripped off at every opportunity by multiple middle men before we get paid. The industry is absolutely on its knees. Why would anyone want to come into it.
Yeah its a shit hole mate i been bricklaying for years its all going down hill! Too many nob heads in suits and subbys just rob the back out of workers
I’m in exactly the same position. 25yrs too. Every month the NHBC want more more more but the prices don’t even begin to reflect the amount of work going in to producing good quality houses.
I know your pain. Site joiner myself. Working on a site last summer. Looked at prices same house type from 2010 so 13 years later. First and second fix prices had gone up by £2!!! Not even worth turning up on site anymore
I’m finished in the building industry, worked from the age of 14, paid stupid amounts of tax, abused my body 5-7 days a week and my body has now said NO MORE, i will miss the industry but will not miss the tax bills, endless red tape and constant chasing of regulation changes. I am genuinely devastated and now facing long term sick and don’t really know how to cope with this situation. I am getting help but this has hit me like a steam train!
I met guy doing that in London and he always looks happy, what Is the best way in for someone with just diy experience ? I did a refit bathroom and kitchen and renovation of my own place
To all of us working in the construction industry (me for 42 years & still going because I can’t afford not to) this is pure gold. You just told the story of our lives! Brilliant 👍🏻
I mean, be honest, the only reason you are still working after 42 years is because you spent all your money in your 20s and 30s and didn't invest any of it in the stock market / pension funds. That's your decision, nobody else's.
When I left Uni and started my first job setting out on construction sites, I learned so much from tradesmen and gained huge respect for these people. It took a few years before I earned their respect in return, but now, 35 years on as an engineer, I never forget those tradesmen that helped me convert from theoretical and academic world into being experienced in practical delivery. I know how hard their job is and in most cases they are underpaid for what they do.
I’m a bricklayer. 26 years old. Tried working for myself full time this year after sub contracting for a long time. I hated every second of it, running around quoting jobs you’re probably not going to get because either there is someone cheaper or the customer just wants to “get an idea of how much it costs”. People don’t value good workmanship and the same goes for sub contracting, nobody values a loyal, good worker who is damn good at their job so you end up working for often less than some of the bad ones. I want to get out, but feel stuck. I know I’m not the only one to feel this way. The industry isn’t worth getting into and I wish I’d listened to people telling me when I was an apprentice. I, like many, love the work, the banter, the people you meet, but what I can’t stand is everything that comes with it and the politics.
I had itchy feet around your age and I left at 27 (carpenter). I took a loan and trained with the nfff to learn how to run a fish and chip shop. Never looked back
I was nearly in tears listening to you , I thought these last two years was just me … failing . I’m no cowboy I’m doing this since I was 19 and my dad was doing the same , we are old school trust based word of mouth builders and build as if it was our own homes . Where’s part 2 , I want answers suggestions , solutions . Thanks roger much appreciated video
OMG, OMG, OMG! You have just hit every single nail 100% smack on the head! Having spent almost 40 years in the trade (now retired) I have over the years experienced every situation you mentioned. Always went above and beyond for my clients, mostly never appreciated. Mostly ending up out of pocket. Felt a huge weight had been taken off me when I finally bowed out and called it a day. Many times asked to take on projects, even though I needed the money, my answer was ‘NO THANKS, NEVER AGAIN!
As a “customer” I found this extremely interesting. In 2019 I had an extension built (circa £150k) and having received several fixed price quotes (one of which was ludicrously low) I eventually shook hands with a builder who agreed for me to pay for all the building materials direct. He sourced it, ordered it and I paid for it. I paid his electrician, plasterer, brickie etc direct. The “fixed” payment was that which I paid to him split evenly over the course of the job. I was happy that there was no contingency fat built into the quote for materials and he was happy that his profit was protected. It worked out really well for us both - and we have remained good mates since. I realise it’s not a common business model but it removed a lot of potential points of conflict and was generally less stressful for both parties.
Quote: "He sourced it, ordered it and I paid for it". Thing is this model has allowed many builders to remain under the VAT registration threshold which ,if investigated the Builder can be prosecuted for vat fraud. It's saved you 20% VAT on all the Labour but may have also broken the law.
@@AdrianSams I can’t see how it can be breaking the law. There’s nothing unlawful about me buying materials and paying an expert to use them…..and at no point did I say I saved by not paying any VAT.
@@kevinturner8343 Hi Kevin, so if a Builder who is not subcontracting but taking on jobs of £150k and is showing throughout his tax year that he is working on large projects with lots of Labour invloved but next to no materials then HMRC can claim he is avoiding the requirement to register for VAT by keeping his turnover below the VAT Threshold of £85k turnover in a single year. They may claim he actively avoided the scheme by contriving to keep his turnover under £85k which may well be tax evasion. As a different example but gives you an idea of the rules : A builder sets up 1 business and his turnover exceeds the threshold to register for vat (£85k) in a rolling 12months then he is required to register for vat and charge 20% on all of his labour which makes him expensive compared to non vat businesses. If he set up a 2nd business doing the same work (Building) and put half his business through each company, say each business turnover is £50k then he has commited an offence by contriving to keep his turnover artifically low to avoid vat registration. I may be wrong but if your builder shows he is doing work for private clients but only on a labour basis whic will keep him below the vat threshold then he may well have contrived to remain out of the vat scheme. Bit long winded but I do know a couple of builders who are being looked into by HMRC. I run a vat registered Joinery and work for buidlers as well as private clients. They all charge labour and materials and have a profit margin on the materials they supply.
@@lksf9820 I agree but taking on contracts of that size for private clients will show up in accounts. If they go back say 3yrs and see the builders turnover was less but supplying lots of materials and then he takes on large builds which would take him over the vat threshold but remains under by supplying labour they will ask questions. With HMRC and vat the onus is on the buidler to show why he is not supplying materials. VAT is different to tax investigations. They may claim the builder has contrived to evade registering. The vat on the labour aspect of a £150k job will be a lot of money.The client would have paid the vat on the materials. It's an interesting debate and I will ask my accountants and see what they come back with.
Spot on description mate, the problem is also compounded on larger jobs by QS's who are happy to send small - medium sized business's to the wall to save 50 pence.
QS’s, book building illiterates. And egotistical power mad losers. I began the route into it soon finding that this bunch of egotists weren’t work the price of entry. One, after two years of college, stood in a field proudly stating he wasn’t paying for the lack of concrete along the sewer run, the contractor telling him that if it went along the run they’d be no expansion and the concrete pipes would fracture. It was enough to see me quit within the year. Idiots with egos. Sadly the same idiots that proliferate across all sectors nowadays.
You have to send every deviation, photos, description and cost. Wait for instruction. Do something else while waiting, NEVER do that work without an instruction.
At 63 ive nearly had enough. Started hod carrying 1977, started bricklaying 1980 and building extensions in 1988. Financially home and dry by 2006. I worked weekends, bank holidays, seldom ill enough to not go in. Enjoyed a lot of personal freedom and made a few bob, however, didnt get a pension, no bank holidays or paid sick. So i made every day count. Its still a good living and if people want out , then just go. Some of my close relatives are teachers, always complaining about their lot. Others are coppers, thats difficult too. Maybe as a nation were fragmenting, lack of resiliance. What else are people going to do? Graft always wins out.
@@Martin-hc6xc He and his company could have paid into a SIPP. They've been around since the late 80s. So many people neglect pensions when they start work only to complain when they retire and realise they do not have a pension...
@@kevinsyd2012 His point is no one contributed a penny towards a pension despite a life time of hard work, nor has he received sick pay, holiday pay or bank holidays. Literally nothing. Compare that to people employed by the state.
Heating guy here. I’ve had enough now, 20 years self employed, sick, stressed, working too much and too hard, not being truly valued, helping people out, but as soon as your not available immediately they drop you for someone else. Being betrayed by family has been the final nail in the coffin. I’m going to try and be a boring 9-5 smart meter fitter in 2024.
I hope the meter fitting course explains how the 13th amendment regs were updated to using non-combustible consumer units off the back of the increased number of fires that were actually down to smart meters fitted onto reused meter tails that were oxidised, making high resistance connections causing overheating! But they probably won't...
Word of mouth is the best way. It's lovely to have a customer who loves your work so much that they fight your corner and/or provide a continuous supply of work from themselves and/or their friends. Getting there is another story. Great video!
Word of mouth is how I get all of my work as I don't advertise, I used to sign write my van and did get some work that way but I haven't bothered with that when I purchased my present van.
@@ilijadjujic5911 if you can get away with not sign writing your van, your much less likley to get robbed, i dont have mine sign writted for this reason
As a plumber/gas engineer I always tried to judge the customer when going to quote. Turned down quite a few jobs, particularly those who wanted a fixed quote for a job with a lot of unknowns.
.... and you were right to do so. You are there to make money, not be a charity. Any customer that is not able to write a spec to include contingencies for unknowns should be avoided. The way I used to tackle this was to have a T&M clause in the contract to cover those unknowns that we both agreed upfront could not be quantified.
On the flip side, customers need a fixed price, to know how to budget effectively and ensure they can pay you in full and on time. If costs escalate, many families on a budget simply cannot afford to take that gamble.
If they are that close to the edge then they are living beyond their means and should not proceed. Someone needs to take the risk and it should not be all on the trady.@@splottcardiff3993
@@whitefields5595 Customers who write detailed specs, materials etc get 0 quotes because they are regarded as "smart-asses" that are hard to overcharge.
Why would you expect to spend 20, 50, 100+ grand without a contract. And why would a builder risk shelling out thousands of materials and labour without the protection of a contract. It might be okay for a quick interior job or a porch, but anything bigger needs some paperwork. We are talking about big sums of cash here. Both sides need to understand how it will be spent and what the end product is, otherwise one or both sides will end up disappointed.
Couldn’t agree more. Remember customers employing tradesmen also have had to work hard to earn money they will be paying. These MUST be a contract in place with clear responsibilities especially as for some of us, these are our life savings we spend to live in a decent place.
This game of the builder buying materials is just so they can whack a 10-15% profit on top. Builders forget that it isn’t the 1970s anymore where you really needed accounts at merchants like Travis. These days, I can pull my phone out and order 80% of the raw materials online, in about 5mins. And all of it deliverable within 48hrs max. If a builder can’t plan a job to within 2 days, he is incompetent.
@imconfused1237 this one makes my laugh sometimes as being a builder I get told this alot... for the customer to tell me how much they'd paid... for me to only laugh... a regular builder with the same merchant or shopping around should normally be able to save you money with making money on top too! That extra% covers expensive, warranty work ect... why would someone self employed work for let's say £30hr to you... when they can probably go get £30hr subbing to someone else with no stress?❤
@@matthewatkinson6207As I said buddy, it’s not the 70s anymore. Anyone can go into the big merchants, open an account and get trade prices on a big order. And as for ‘shopping around’, that’s what a search engine is for: it’ll compare prices quicker than any human ever could. There is no justification for applying some 10-15% surcharge on top of material. Thats the game. But the builder is adding ZERO value - it’s just a greedy mark-up. So I always remove the middleman and order my own material; funny how builders don’t seem to like that, and yet I’m dissolving their liability. No one rips me off.
Couldnt agree more........ im a 44 yrs old Bricklayer by trade / builder!! I am totally jaded by the building trade. Site work is terrible contractors paying peanuts and the standard of work on most sites is disgusting. Back in the day site work was great you could earn decent money and to do a good job was a given. The domestic sector is a more pleasurable work environment for me im not surrounded by a bunch of children measuring there manhoods like on site but some of the customers are out for nothing more than to rip you off. There is alot of good clients but plenty of bad ones. After a recent rogue client went after us for a job we did im now back to having as little hassle as possible subcontracting to a local builder. The building trade nowadays is pretty dire!
Well I've been on the trowel for 40+years now ( still going strong) but I totally agree with you about site work, the standard is shit, majority can't build a 20 course corner, "oh I only use profiles" is the normal response. And then of course you have CSCS enforcers who know fuck all about building but rigourously follow every health & safety rule in the book with the end result being no productivity. Great example being hard hats, fine if there's something above you but when your in a bloody field doing footings? I'll never set foot on one again, it was once well paid & good crack...now it's like being at school!
My son in law closed his electrician business in the summer. He was able to find alternative work for his two employees. Frankly the stress of running the business was not worth the return. Especially after two businesses went into liquidation (only to spring up again) owing him £35K - basically worked a year for nothing. Becoming an employee and getting paid holidays, private health insurance and employer pension contributions made giving up his own business a no brainer.
The businesses liquidating and then reappearing is an old trick called phoenixing: www.gov.uk/government/publications/phoenix-companies-and-the-role-of-the-insolvency-service/phoenix-companies-and-the-role-of-the-insolvency-service
The same in any business, life is very easy for employees. Especially in small businesses the last to get any money is the 'owner' everyone else has to be paid first. The business bit is the horrible bit for craftsmen oriented makers and doers. Needs to be a big business to have people that do the non working stuff, costing, 'selling', accounts etc. instead of the owner who probably is a natural craftsman not form filler.
In the end the jobbing builder goes replaced by big corporate entities. The result? The corporates push up prices to profit more. Then the jobbing builder returns to profit. Then the cycle begins again. In the end only the customer loses, which is the builder and corporate, materials rising to reflect the growing money pile that’s being raided. It’s the perpetuation of avarice.
Excellent well-written summary of the capitalist cycle. Analogous to the private rental sector where Gove's landlord-bashing is all the rage with this Consocialist government. All that has happened is the supply of rented properties has diminished and so rents have gone up. The Corporates smell the blood in the water and move it. Best of luck Renter when you find out your landlord is a New York hedge fund manager!@@brynleytalbot778
Too late for your Son in Law , poor guy try best and that happens 100p% not right. There is invoice insurance/factoring for others maybe. I think it's around 10% fee this would also be a tax deductable charge
Part of the problem for customers is they are getting fed up with poor workmanship. The last 3 jobs I’ve had done resulted in a not plum flue, a leaking toilet and a car that has the same noise on the part that it went into the shop with. I have been let down so many times I expect it and I’m getting fed up with with it. I don’t exist for the benefit of the builder/tradesman. I pay them to do work for me to a level that is acceptable and often don’t get it. So far I’ve ended up having to do the work that I’ve paid the tradesman to do. I would like to be able to pay someone and them do the job properly, but that seems to be a lottery nowadays.
There also the problem that you can't trust the "trusted" sites that recommend tradespeople, as there's a strong incentive for them to keep their tradespeople paying for their listings, even if they can't be trusted.
Agree mate I've tried both ways. The Wickes plumber or the direct tradie. I've spec'd what I want and said don't take short cuts. I don't care about needing to pay an extra few quid when you find a problem or like you said materials keep going up. Let me know and I'll work with you. But I keep finding they've cut corners or not done what I specified eg Copper pipes not plastic or electric cables not routes the way I asked.
@@purplemonkeydishwasher5269 Agreed, and the prices demanded are ridiculous, gas safe installer £750 a day for a tradesman and a lad. How much does a doctor get? Less than half that.
@@Choppit53 agree, I think also that people who have had a bad experience with a "Trusted Trader" simply can't be bothered to write a negative review. Word of mouth is the only way left.
So true Roger. I'm lucky enough to have traded on word of mouth for the last 30 years. However, when I go to see a prospective client, I go with the mindset that its me deciding if I want to work with them, not the other way around.
Yes I used to tell my customers at the end of the 2nd meeting whether they'd passed the interview or not 😏, sets the precedent early, it's also good to remind them frequently that they're lucky to have your skills there!!
I've been a site joiner and I'm quitting at the age of 54. I've had enough. People stacking shelves in aldi earn more than me. I looked at a price list from 12 years ago and for the same house type prices had gone up by £2!! At one point last year I was doing 5 days getting dragged all over site by a site manager and coming home with £300 for five days and fuel was costing me £100 I saw a lad begging outside Aldi when I called in on my way home and I said you probably have more than me mate. I nearly ended up not being able to pay my share of the mortgage. In the end I left site and have been odd jobbing and labouring for cash just to get straight. New year I'm looking for any job that's cards in and regular. Self employed in construction is a mugs game
@@jimdavis8391 you're possibly right but then everyone is a "RUclips registered " property developer these days. The Tories destroyed manufacturing and sent all the work to China. There's 0% growth in the real economy and the property growth is 20% per year. The only way to make money is either through property or getting high up in the public sector industries. To be honest I'd rather get out of building
@danielmorrison1384 he has freedom he has a choice he could get a job, he has benefits. I'm working for a pittance so I can one day say i own a house by the time I'm 70? I work an have nothing left. Every penny I earn goes to pay bills, van, Fuel, tools. Insurance My girlfriend and I have been together for 20 years. We have never been able to afford a holiday. We don't go out we can't afford to. We have to be very frugal. I only eat a meal at night. I can't afford lunch I'm basically in slavery by definition. Working for nothing. I rather think the other guy is better off than me. At least he has free choice. I'm in servitude Imagine working a five day week to come home with £300 and it's cost you £120 for fuel that week. Then living with the pressure of trying to find £1200 per month to pay bills when you struggle to earn anywhere near that.
Thats why I become a bloody good Do it yourself person, so long as you have a good aptitude towards the project your taking on, all the info is out there, yes it takes longer than the professional, but so satisfying, and money saving, it opens your eyes to the cost of materials too!!!
Just one problem with learning from info practical skills can’t be learned properly from anything other than being shown by a tradesman directly and honing skills over time 😊 just my opinion I was a self employed builder for fifty years 🖖
I don't like DIY, especially plumbing, but at least I'll plumb stuff properly with copper and pipe benders. The plumber who did the cloakroom here used pushfit crap and flexible hoses.
I quit this year due to domestic problems and a change in demographic client base. I'm not a racist but certain demographics are more problematic than others ,so screw it I've had enough of being treated like white trash.
The people makes the culture, the culture doesn’t make the people. I just got back from Poland. The trust there, the civil fabric is so beautifully intact, it really shows you how tattered and wrecked the Uk social fabric is. It’s heading in the same direction there though. Funny talking to them, they aspire to be even more “progressive”. I try and warn them what they’re progressing towards but they won’t see it. They think you put oranges with apples and the oranges become apples. Not all of them mind, but all it takes is a slow drip of people in charge eroding the social fabric with grifters who want to take more than give, and eventually you end up with the UK
@@maxtroyit's such a shame the young polish didn't see that. It devastated the polish demographic. They will also have to import a lot of immigrants in years to come to plug the gap.
I used to ask them which bits of the proposed job they wanted me to leave out. It was generally the rich ones who appeared to be slaves to their greed and unable to stop themselves from trying it on. Our present government appears to be mainly manned by such people coincidence or otherwise.
Absolutely spot on. When they start wanting a lower price they are really asking you to take a cut in your wages because they definitely don't want to be getting cheaper materials. I'm packing it in this year because I couldn't be bothered any more. I'm lucky I'm financially secure but I work with a bloke who's 67 and has to keep working as he hasn't got a pension other than the state pension. He does brilliant work, doesn't need to advertise but he still gets the look when he asks for money on Friday. Some people want work done for free. He often tells them next time they are in Tesco's, see if they will be offered any discount on the weekly shop or if they will allow payment next week instead. The price is the price - any less and he's the loser.
Interesting video Roger and Dylan. I think it’s so vital to only work for nice people, ideally people that are friends or acquaintances of existing customers. I try and stay within about a 2 mile radius, I also don’t entertain probably 50% of the random phone calls I get from tyre kickers looking to get a job done yesterday. It’s a lot of work even going out to see new jobs, then spending hours working on a good quality quotation. I discuss figures with the customers at a very early stage before doing too much work, to make sure we are at least in the same ball park.
I've been a builder for 42 years and agree completely with what you say. I now work on day rate and customer pays materials and sub contractors separately. I've been knocked in the past and would rather loose wages if I am to be knocked rather than a larger sum.
I work through agencies. I pay my tax etc.and make a decent living. I don't touch price work which means I'll never get the big bucks, but I'll never work for free/a loss either. I ran my own business for a while, but it was a hassle and I only made a living: nothing more. The worst customers for paying up and agreeing on a price were the wealthy ones. The less well -off ones were generally sound as a pound.
As architect, I am 100% agree with you about client paying materials and subcontractors separately. The reason I can see from here, is that main (rogue or mismanaged) contractors can't divert client's deposits onto contractor's own bussines problems or to send money away to other management portfolios. That is the reason in Australia, is looking for a system like that, so builders don't collapse
@@gudnergiovannilondono9396 in no way is this personal but the standard of architects drawings and details is going down as well I feel. Also often get drawings now with zero or minimal dimensions on it
Great video! As a landscape business co owner I must add the extra challenge for us, the British weather! Its costing us a lot of lost days of delays, of course the guys still get paid so we ended up making no money on most jobs... Its been very challenging and after 15 of this we are thinking of packing up as we say "make more money working at tescos"... Happy New Year and hopefully for the best...
As a semi-retired spark one of the biggest issues I constantly see in the building industry is rogue builders defending other rogue builders. I've seen it time and time again. They seem to want the cowboys to exist to make their own work look better. Its all a bit of a mess, glad I'm pretty much out of it.
Well this has always been the problem in this country. You learn a trade and get experience but find after a while that it doesn’t have any value to you. You work hard and get nowhere while others profit from your labour, ridiculous when you step back and look at it.
@@Paul-qk4oj Labour have tried and will carry on trying to get rid of SE everytime they’re in power. The SE is not good for the socialist/communist dream.
Hi Roger, I've decided to quit after 43 years as a decorator, The last 6 years doing my own work. I managed to get through the pandemic crisis but since then it has been a struggle to keep working consistently. I have some lovely customers that all pay me promptly, but I just don't quite have enough of them. The final nail in the coffin for me was back in October I caught covid which laid me up for 4 weeks. As a result I lost 2 jobs as I was unable to start them on time and 3 jobs got put back until after christmas. So I've decided to quit the industry altogether. I'm looking to get a job where I can get up go to work, do a mundane job without any worries then go home switch off, have my tea, watch a bit of telly or youtube, then go to bed. I'm looking forward to living a less stressed life. I will miss my customers but I won't miss the stress nor the 24/7 time consuming work.
I’m finding the same. Struggling to get enough work to keep me busy throughout the year. Fortunately I have a wife who earns enough to pay all the family and household bills but mentally I’m struggling with not being able to contribute enough financially. Last paid job was September so I’ve even taken jobs such as clearing gutters to earn some cash. At the moment I’ve 6 deco jobs in the diary for 2024 but that’s it and I’m not alone with that in fact a friend whose also a decorator at this point in time has zero jobs booked for 2024. It’s tough but at 58 I’m gonna just limp along as long as I can.
@@les9920sorry to hear that buddy. Have you looked into better marketing? Maybe upscaling image, new uniform, van wrapping, specialising in something in particular? I.e paper hanging or coving/cornice specialist? I came to the same crossroads as you around 4 or 5 years ago, had plenty of work but all of it was for landlords and cheapskates so I decided to completely remarket myself and my business. I now have many high end clients and I have excellent non stressful working relationships with them as they're usually too busy or stressed themselves to bother me with this, that and the other. Keep at it bud and I'm here to bounce ideas off if you need it. Us deccys should stick together 👍
@@les9920 - How come there are tradesman saying they are struggling to get work, and yet when I try and find a tradesman I can't get one for months? Just geographical perhaps?
Great video, the only thing, I'm aware of that you didn't mention was, the average age of the builder/tradesperswon, many are 50 plus now, and either winding down or retiring., and as you did say very few coming in at the other end. So it's a natural progression, the younger generations, coming out of school don't want to do manual work, everything is more computer based since the 1990's plus they can get more working in a supermarket, than they can as an apprentice, plus most small business's don't want apprentices, as they don't want to be dealing with the hard to deal with CITB(How about a video about them?) I've been self employed since 1986 initially as a sub-contractor but mainly running a small domestic business , and I'd say most Building firms don't last more than 10 years anyway, not just now, but over the years, I'm 58 now and winding down to a part time operation, like most of my piers around me, in my area NW England. Hello to all the hardworking trades people and builders, I love your show, thanks for the videos. Regards Tim
I can see why so many people get discouraged trying to run a trades business today. Trying to find skilled help is almost impossible. Training people is expensive. Customers who take months to make a decision and want it tomorrow even though you have to make it. to run a trade business you have to be a business man and a tradesman. Many of us are not good at the business part of it. Thanks for your video. It hit many of my weaknesses while in business.
"...a fantastic place to work, so long as you don't have to make money out of it." A brilliant statement. The business side of it is a complete nightmare!
Good video. My father was a carpenter before WWII. After a few years of working for others he decided to build houses on speculation. After 3 years overseas he had saved up enough to afford to do the first house from his savings. He designed and built the house and didn't put it up for sale until a month before completion. He hated real estate agents who were trying to give him bad advice. It was a great way to do everything on his schedule and his way. Dad and all of his employees were WWII vets. They enjoyed working with each other and nobody was stupid enough to mess with them for long. Good Luck, Rick
@@englishdecorator The principle is still the same. Whether you build houses/flip houses, rebuild cars or boats, its that you work for yourself and profit or lose by your efforts.
Not in trade but am a DIY, the few times I have decided to get a "expert" in, they have made a mess. This is from plastering, to boiler installs, to a solar system. Many people no longer have faith in builders, so just don't bother anymore
I have found trades I get in don’t seem to care. The last time I got a sparky in to add some sockets, he trapped the wires between the faceplate and back box. Luckily I don’t mind flicking power off and tidying it up but would have been a problem getting him back if I didn’t.
I think there’s more reasons than stated here tbh. I was a plasterer and re-trained in the legal profession (now do court cases for debt collection), so a big change. Part of the reason I changed was down to culture on the sites and bosses I worked for (weren’t very good), also many of the time served guys were advising me against staying in the industry due to problems with arthritis, hip, back and joint issues to look forward to in my 50’s. Add in the fact pension ages keep rising there was no way I could have seen out retirement as a plasterer. I work less hours, more money, work from home 3 days a week and have a warm, comfortable work environment and social hours. I wouldn’t go back now.
Oh, and strongly disagree on avoiding contracts. In any dispute they are crucial protection for you as a builder to show exactly what was quoted and agreed. Ensure your quotes state subject to change in material costs. Most people understand that material costs can fluctuate.
Any chance to let us know what way you retrained in a legal profession? I'm looking to an alternative for when I'll be in my 40's and my body will start crumbling... 😂
The solution seems obvious. Trades should work less hours but be paid good rates. The race into lifestyle acquisition is the demon not the trade itself. If you work yourself to death to make more to display more then you’ll eventually pay the price. Have tradesmen been their own worst enemy. And their incomes attracted partners who want the never ending social partying lifestyle on their terms without any genuine contribution. If you’re working as hard enjoying it as making it who is the real sucker.
@@brynleytalbot778 I didn’t get much choice as an apprentice over my hours. I was expected to work the same hours as my peers. I found time off was seen as “skiving” and somehow being lazy. This improved when I moved from doing site work to domestic properties, but there were still issues. I honestly think that manual occupations like trades should qualify for lower retirement ages.
Flipping houses with a load of debt in a falling market is a dangerous game and definitely not stress free. Living in a rural area where the local builders get known for their work and the word gets about if you are a bad customer means most people are trusted. I know people who have been doing bathrooms and kitchens for the last 15 years and not had any serious problems from customers - though costs are more easily estimated and they charge for their work by the day.
Here in Southern Ireland i got a fitted Kitchen for a local supplier i gave them the measurements they planned out the location of same and picked out the Units, they came out and remeasured to see that all was good, and inspected the Electrical Plumbing location, then i had to Pay in Full and was to pay the Kitchen Fitters and the Electrician/Plumber on the Day. It worked out great and the Kitchen was in our old home which has been Rented for Twenty Years and those Bullet Proof Shaker style Units are still holding Up after all that use, the Company grew from strength to strength and is now one of the biggest in the Country... The Kitchen Fitters told me that the Company had to go down this route as many folks bounced cheques for a pastime others offered part payment and others wouldn't pay at all...
The secret with flipping houses is to build up a cash reserve before you start, Cash is always KIng in property matters. That way, you're not exposed to sudden rises in interest rates, as has recently been the case. The other thing with flipping houses is once you've sold them, if you've done your sums correctly, you'll have made a decent profit. Renting them out and getting paid from the tenant becomes someone else's problem, not yours. However, many people (currently over 3 million in the UK) have a portfolio of at least one property, with ever rising rents (in real terms), it can be quite lucrative, unless you get the wrong sort of tenant.
I was a brickie and came off the tools back in 2020, the guy I worked with he did the same a year after me. Best thing I ever did. I was 48 years old when I changed career
I am an electrician and refrigeration and aircon engineer I worked in data centres etc did all sorts of M and E. I left last year and am retraining as a legal assistant at my wife firm doing conveyancing. 35 years of experience gone. the reason is the large company I worked for was bringing more tech trackers etc into the job and all it did was slow me up and stopped me doing the tasks needed. a simple bulb replacement would take 2 weeks on and of due to getting the quote ordering the part and fitting it. Drove me nuts for something we should have on the shelf. 14 years at that firm and every year no or a below inflation rise. I ended up over 8k down in real terms from when I started.
The biggest issue for me is material costs. My customer base that ive built up over the last 10 years are mainly working class people that are not poor by any means but not particularly wealthy. So jobs that they used to be able to afford are now unnafordable for them with me charging the same labour rates I charged when I started 10 years ago but double or there abouts for materials. Another issue I seem to encounter is customers not willing to compromise on things like bifolding doors and quartz worktops. When I started building it was lots of uPVC french doors and laminate worktops. I tell customers they could save 7 or 8k (depending on the size of kitchen and bifild doors) if they go for french doors and laminate worktops and instead they just don't go ahead at all. Added to that the ulez (I live in London) meaning second hand van costs have over doubled what they were 10 years ago and it's getting quite hard to make a living!
People's expectations have become ridiculous. Everyone wants a home like in the design magazines and a fancy new car and they're willing to work themselves to the bone for decades to get it.The kitchen benchtops, stainless appliances, thousand dollar phones... they're nice but i'm pretty sure none of it's worth it. You can have a marginally less beautiful version of the same thing for a 1/4 of the price. But whatever floats your boat i guess.
People are constantly sold upwards into ridiculous materials that actually offer no return over normal use or any extended lifetime because they change again at a whim. When you research the marketing it’s all been targeted at women whose brain chemistry and social hierarchy seeking make them easy pitches and retail addicts. Depressing reading. And terrifying when that research found that something around 80% of all major purchases are decided by the woman in the relationship even though it’s often funded by the man. Retailers depend on women’s psychology and manipulating it to push better products because women think it’ll increase their status. The L’Oréal hype, “Because you’re worth it” is actually interpreted by the female mind as “Because without it you’re worthless”. When you’re faced with that mindset pushing the expensive option is easy even though it’s actually pointless and ridiculous. The woman isn’t making a choice, she’s complying with the social status the product supplier promotes as the real gain. You can’t beat that. And they know it.
If you split your quotes into man-hours and materials would that help? If you listed the prices of the main materials and then flexed the final price by the increased prices surely most customers would work with you? We are not there to put you out of business for aspects beyond your control. This is common practice in many service industries. Those that won't, let them go whistle
@@whitefields5595 i think a lot of it comes down to the banks (I'm in Australia). Most people are financing larger projects and the banks don't like it when quotes aren't fixed price. But I'm working for wealthier people at the moment and everything is being done on cost plus contracts because they can make their own decisions. If you have the money and a builder you trust then it's the way to go. I estimate everything and then they usually end up changing everything anyway, making the estimate irrelevant but it's low stress and they get what they want and i'm not trying to get it done as fast as possible, there's no temptation to cut corners or employ people who don't work to a high standard. I document everything and keep the client in the loop with everything so they don't get nervous and it seems to work.
COVID and Brexit have had a big impact on materials. I could see that leaving would reduce foreign workers coming but most of my materials come from the EU. It needs to be addressed and soon. Jobs were easy to get before but now I'm winning less.
Most of my family are builders so I know exactly what you mean. They are all getting a little too old for this game and have well and truly stopped worrying about looking for work that does not really pay. £250 a day is not what it used to be, especially down south, building stuff is hard work and requires many skills and different types of equipment, which all need to be kept in working order, insured and transported to site. Both of my brothers-in-law long since decided only to work on their own projects and my own brother's wife recently died so he sold his large house and went into part-time retirement at only 58. He will do the odd job when he needs a bit of extra folding, but other than that prefers to do nothing, play video games, go fishing, or occasionally shag his new girlfriend when he can be bothered. To be honest he can't be bothered unless she starts beating him around the head for it. Who can be bothered at that age once you have been there more than a few dozen times? No one should feel obliged to work that hard either in bed or up a ladder once they get to that kind of age, never mind well into their 60s. Hard work is for the younguns, and I don't envy any of them.
I left the trade as an electrician 10 years ago. I loved the work and I had some pretty good clients. The local Spearmint Rhino being one of them 😅. But the stress of not knowing where my next pay check was coming from, clients accusing me of over pricing work when I was working for £75 a day on a weekend, the costs of NAPIT and the fear of the taxman breathing down my neck was just too much for me. Geppetto's Workshop would make a fitting background for Rodger I think 😂.
I don't work on site anymore because the HSE have destroyed the industry. Going to work used to be a man's sanctuary, a respite from personal problems, but the HSE have made construction sites more like a prison than a place of work and I find them depressing places to work in now!
Not just HSE it's also the claim culture forcing all the building companies to be OTT about safety as they know they'll get sued if any mishaps happen. e.g. my local council got sued by a street cleaner because he got sunburn and the council didnt provide him with any or madate that he wear it...
OMG, I went on a Tier 1 Kiers site 3 weeks ago, what an absolute joke. I walked after 7 days, told them I wasn't allowing them to invade my privacy and I'll happily leave if they weren't happy with that. I left anyway. I'm happy in a high pressure shopfitting scenario, not tossing off making sure my hi-viz and chin strap look good.
I’ve just quit the industry this year after forty five years, just had enough of all the stress of being a site manager and trying to make sure that everyone is doing what they’re supposed to be doing safely which is normally no. Mobile phones are a nightmare in the workplace for one example.
1 job at a time ,only me and the lad , stage payments upfront at agreed stages , extras paid for individually on completion and it’s worked for me for 25 years. Good luck to all my comrades
I just had to put my company into liquidation. Two employees that took us for a ride, and two customers that refused to pay despite no problems with the work done. Small building companies are extremely vulnerable. Sad
I totally agree with everything. Am in this same boat, ive been a plumber and heating engineer for about 15 years and the trade has been good to be , but ive just had enough witj customers, and i have some fantastic customer . But the bad outweigh everything. The stress isn't worth it. Ive got about another 4 years am leaving the building game in my 40s and ill just go house bashing ajmd flip a house a year
Dont go house bashing, thats also a no no. The customer base is shrinking due to over all cost of the economy. Or if you go up market, you need water tight contracts, all the way. Everything you do MUST be by contract (your terms!) Seek professional advice, its costly but the only way. Start with the premise of trust NO customer.
Flipping heck Roger, talk about hitting the nail on the head! Last financial year my accountant thought I was working a 2 day week, how about leaving the house at 4am, into the office, on site for 8, back in the office 5pm-9, and that 7 days a week for 20 weeks of the year. Who mentioned holidays! What are those. So, not surprisingly, I'm doing exactly what you've surmised, winding it down, not completely, but just sticking with a very restrictive set of repeat customer (who pay all the bills) and that's it. The occasional s/c gang to assist, but basically cutting right back. The life of a small, multi trade, builder. We are treated with such contempt that I won't touch domestic work anymore... so now about a third of my time is on health and safety, RAMS as we call it, but good job to - the customers appreciate it and nobody breaks a leg or gets killed! Strangely, this current year has been really enjoyable, I'm even helping my main customer out with a bit of unpaid additional work - working with a conscience - hahaa, just like the good old days! Great video, and apologies for my soap box comments!
Roger as always with his finger on the pulse. People trust nobody or nothing at the moment. It is pretty abysmal everywhere. Everybody is squeezed unless they got established before house prices went loopy in the mid 90's. Building trade was always to my mind unstable employment with booms, busts, having to travel to new sites or if you stay local you are waiting on the phone to ring and hoping its not a messy job in someone's house. People with big mortgages cannot afford to move, build extensions or update their houses either so even looking locally for work is difficult. I think the way money keeps getting printed and devalued we are making things worse as the generations go by. My father is 75, left school at 12 to start working. He could afford to buy a home for his family and have my mother stay home. Find me a tradesman today that can do the same. It is an awful lot harder now. There is allot of money out there but it is not in the average guys pocket, and most of it is on the never never.
The cyclical corporate building lunacy where quick profits have become the push over sane slower quality builds has led to ridiculous labour rates in the trades which collapse when supply exceeds demand. As the builders reign in production, material costs stripping out profit, trades will be released, supply increase, and labour rates collapse. Anyone who has tracked this phenomenon enough has seen every cycle. I saw it first at the end of the eighties as house prices suddenly burst the bubble. And how the pathway to ownership is eased with shared equity to prop up the markets imminent collapse, the clarion marketing call telling the young, “Buy now or you’ll never get on the ladder”. It always collapses after this. Greed dominates the building sector. Till that ends no one will benefit. Trades were promised the land of plenty but find a circle of despair. Unfortunately many ride the highs never saving for the lows. Until lifestyles end and life returns nothing will change. Regrettably women chase social status through displaying new this, new that, and they’re paying for it though him, new him if he fails. Men need to wake up and call a halt to this lunacy. Maybe normality and stability will emerge when they man up against the product marketing their women fall prey to.
@brynleytalbot778 That's one of the greatest series of comments I've read for a while. Barely a day goes by when I don't thank my father that he brought me up to see those errors you've described. I don't think I'd have made past 50 years old otherwise. Cabinetmaker 51 yrs old and still single...
Had enough, packed it in 4 weeks ago after about 40 years, far to many greedy customers wanting something for nothing, with ridiculous demands ,making all sorts of excuses not to pay or knock a large chunk off the bill. Materials are an absolute nightmare to source builders merchants promising to get materials just to get the order but then cant deliver on time, I have never been so stressed out and really used to enjoy going to work.
If there's one thing I've learned, its that's I'd rather pay more for a good tradeperson and get it done properly than pay less for shoddy workmanship. It's when you pay top rate for substandard work that riles me.
All the "good" tradespeople has been shafted so much over the years (by government, employers,management teams etc )that they have left. When was the last time your saw a apprentice trainee? Employers generally, use 'agencies' and bugger off to the golf course, so its no wonder you cant find good trades people. How do I know? I worked in the commercial world for 45years and saw it all. Imagine being the installer and supplier of seats for the Wembley Stadium and ending up bankrupt. Thats the reality
Good in theory , but in my experience with builders the very last thing you get is 'what you pay for' more often than not you get what you put up with.
The problem with DIY is refusing to permit yourself to accept a half ass job, being willing to pay for someone else to do a better job, but still ending up with the half ass result. The benefit of DIY is you end up with some nice tools afterwards.
absaloutly love this bloke and series so true to life and realistic, deals with all the nitty gritty. Worked my self into the ground this year with little profit. Trying to do small jobs to keep cash flow on big jobs going but end up rushing making a mess of both. Employees and labourers don't wanna turn up every day , no one wants to do it. tools been robbed. Vans on the way out and nice 5k tax bill. Can't wait for January. there's good money to be earnt but when it rains it pours.
30 years here a bricklayer and I'm out I'm now a London black cabbie, stick construction where the sun don't shine, what we take with us is a wealth of knowledge
been in trade nearly 50 years and with the money it costs to employ labour/ skilled trades men then plus high cost of materials it's just one big effort plus as a employer I find employees want top money and do as little as possible for it 🤷🏼♂️ this makes it hard for contractors to make it work Well said man
I am coming at this from the other point of View - as a new potential extension customer with plans in hand (who thinks he is within the 80% of good people that Roger identifies?) - trying to get quotes for an extension build. I really don't believe there are 20% of rogue builders around here... Its driving me nuts trying to find reliable, honest, hard working people. I just want honest people like Bricklaying with Steve and Alex to rock up and not try to rip my arm off and leave me and my family desolate and penniless after they leave a dumpsite. All I ever seem to find is cowboys of the likes that Gosforth handyman came across when he started his family home extension. So, what is a person to do - start a spreadsheet and start digging myself in spring and hope I encounter some good bricklayers around where we live in Cambridge. From my point of view, all I ever seem to find from building contractors are huge amounts of sub-contracting to who appear to be any random off the street and very little time on site putting the hours in themselves while they try to hook the next fish.
I wouldn't take to much notice of Gosforth Handyman, he clearly didn't take due diligence when engaging the builders he used, the signs he was engaging a rogue were all there from the beginning, he just went with the cheapest price!😂
One problem is the Afro of taking a customer to court. They have almost nothing to lose from holding onto the money and coming up with spurious reasons not to pay. The court system might take six months then the worst that can happen to the customer is pay the full invoice plus interest which is negligible, court costs which is a couple of hundred and loss of earnings to attend court which I believe is capped at £90 a day ! This really needs to change. Construction is one of the few areas in life where you generally pay after the service.
Sad times indeed! I personally try and advocate for young people to come into the trades but can’t help feel guilty knowing and having experienced a lot of what you say. Unfortunately both sides have slipped and both side share equal blame for the lack of trust. One of the best bits of advice I received was, when you go to price a job you are judging the customers at the same time. You don’t have to take ever job on, you can turn it down if you get a bad/off feeling from the customer.
I pulled out of the electrical business in the early 1990’s. I remember someone who ran his own business saying there’s never enough money in the business and he’d seen the decline 8n the 70’s, 80’s and @990’s when the firm eventually went bust. The motto was “when there a decline the building industry are always first hit and when there’s an improvement in the economy they are always the last to see the benefit. I’ve also seen real rogue traders and clients.
As a client ,I have been blessed to know some great builders ,plumbers ,sparkys etc,over the years . They looked after me and vice versa, I know they had to do other work because they had to deal with a cash flow and didn't want to go back on their word on costs and I appreciated that. Which is why I'd always give them first call and there workmanship was good ! And I would recommend them to friends and family. But most are retiring although some will do odd work for people like myself because of that respect we had for each other ! Good tradespeople are the salt of the Earth . Give him a respectful back drop !
This was brilliant. Put a pub in the background! We used to there for dinner break back in the day! Agencies are a contributing factor to the industry’s decline
My builder works for a day rate. He estimates the time to complete the project and he's usually pretty close. I pay all the materials costs as we go along with the project. He puts an invoice in every Friday for his hours... and I pay him that weekend. Everyone's happy. He can take time off for family stuff and other commitments etc... and I don't care really because I only pay him for the time that he works. This whole 'lump sum lottery' ... I'm not into it.
This is the way to do it. I never quote (Painter /Decorator) but estimate mostly so I can block out my diary. Client pays for all materials plus my day rate.
Almost the same system as Peru. Here it's a contract for the job, but excluding materials and consumables. Often they'll break down the job into smaller chunks, e.g. foundations, ground floor, first floor, etc, and quote and complete them one by one in turn. They "withdraw" part of the agreed money as an advance at the end of each week. Interesting that this possibility also exists in the UK.
I’m a design engineer for my day job, just finished a house build I started during lockdown periods so I’m familiar with building. Seems every ‘traditional’ manufacturing type is in decline. Even machine shops and fabrication shops are disappearing. Personally I think it’s the school curriculum that totally neglects hands skills and creative skills. Combine that with a youth that now have social media and gaming to keep themselves entertained rather than ‘creating’ its leading to a decline of making stuff.
I’m a plumber in blackpool can’t afford to work some days need more than 1-2 jobs or not worth going out … costs me .. glad you did this video was feeling pretty distressed , Christmas amplifies the problem ,luckily I’m on my own so no guilt from family going hungry
I'm a plumber and only do the small jobs which suits me, customers seem happy just to get someone to have a look. I charge an hourly rate. Personally when someone calls me I know straight away if I want to go round to do it, some blokes are telling me what I need to do on the phone, I normally tell them that they should do it themselves. I'm lucky where I've got in a position that I don't need to do it anymore.
Exactly the same with me. When people ring me and say they have an easy job that won't take me long they are actually saying I don't want to pay you very much to fix my problem. I do as you do - tell them if it's so simple and won't take long then do it yourself. They change their tune very quickly.
A carpenter of 20 years here, I’ve done a mix of site work and private over the years and absolutely hate the industry and the job in general!(I guess I’m at the resentment stage). The money just isn’t worth the stress. The people actually doing the work (tradesman) are paid less and less while the directors of the large housing companies are paid more and more.
Great video Roger. Nailed the whole scenario. The bit that gets me is a recession, materials go up and labour comes down. In 2008 recession I was struggling to get jobs charging £80/day. Undercut by others doing it cheaper. I have a good reputation now and dont advertise. CITB, CIS and HMRC are the pain of my life.
If working for private clients make sure it's payment in tranches. Not payment on completion. Too many rogues who know it takes years for County Courts to sort things and it's difficult to rip out £600 worth of electrical components.
3 factors.are important, a good work ethic, reputation, pride in workstandards because you are only as good as your last job. As for customers it's when they ask 'can you just' and interfering with their superior knowledge that starts causing problems and further expenses. When the contract finishes trying to get them to pay for the extra work charges is like getting blood out of a stone. Trust between both parties are lower now than they have ever been and one of the reasons why i left my trade after 25 years. The trades has lost much needed experience and knowledge and why so many projects now over run in costs and time. It's also going to get much worse in the years to come too when the last of us that learned from those old times retire from the building game. I loved doing my trade and was good at it and was never without work, but people spoiled it with the unreasonable demands which were always at my expense.
I’ve been a gas engineer / plumber for 38 years , working self employed for a significant part of that time doing 6 days a week trying to keep customers happy and the money flowing in Although you have your freedom to a certain extent being self employed it’s still bloody hard graft and it takes its toll eventually I’m still in the trade but my back is knackered so I took a desk role with a company a few years ago and haven’t looked back since I work from home mainly 8 till 4 , 37 hours , no weekends , good salary, good pension, paid holidays, paid sick leave , flexible working arrangements I don’t really miss being on the tools and definitely don’t miss running around like a loony trying to get to jobs on time Happy days
@@mattpym873 Hi, I have a job as a gas operational team leader , managing a team of gas engineers , all the usual supervisory and line management duties and tech support etc
I'm in the same boat. Being a builder is stressful and extremely high risk. I was literally just talking to my mate about starting a company just doing decks or something simple like that.
People nowadays demand instantaneous gratification. There is no delayed gratification nor willingness to wait. Similarly there is a rising tide of expectations. These expectations are wholly and mutually incompatible. Tag on, the seven dirty words that I loathe... "While you are here, can you just?" Sorta makes things... frustrating.
people expect far more than they did years ago, for instance i cant even remember the last time i did a laminate worktop, its all fancy quartz now for 4,5,6 10 times the price, no bog standard upvc french doors its all grey metal bifolds. the standards of what people expect for the money is just crazy im amazed how many people can afford to spend 50k on a kitchen
Im 41 and been in the game since i was 18. I have to admit lately ive got to a point ive had enough. Finding it a really struggle to motive myself. Too many youtube customers who know it all..
I work in an entirely different industry, and yet the 20% of bad customers are also there, and I know there are 20% of bad contractors too. It seems a pity that what we have become are humans without shame. A friend of mine runs an air b and b, with a 100% impeccable record, and yet one bad customer came with criminal intent and forced my friend to offer them their money back after only two days. They refused the offer and said they would “stick it out”….they complained of things that weren’t there….mosquitoes, bed bugs, mould dirty sheets etc…….just shocking …have they no shame?
James is a loss to the building trade I watched all these work on RUclips I liked everything he did I work for builders who cut their corners all the time it would have been a pleasure to work with him
Thats the best way, A very strong contract, stage payments, ALL subcontractors must come through you ((part of the contract) all set up with professional help. One word of warning, you cannot go back onto a customers site, to pick up your possessions without your customers permission-thats trespass. That why you need professional help
I had staged payments for my project but we got to a point where the builder has moved on to another project about 75% complete (or 75% of the money handed over at least). The staged payments loosly included the tasks that would be completed by whkn. We are in a situation where some of the works that we thing had been paid for are not complete but some elements that were part of future stage payments had been started. We have no idea if we can complete what we need to in the funds left or if we got fair value for the work that has been done. This is a big project for us north of £300k. The general work done by our builder was good but we had specified and expected high levels of insulation and finish. Having seen the quality of work by Roger and Robin Clevitt we knew what we hoped for but it felt a long way from what we had delivered. I do feel for the building trade and understand some of the challenges raised in this video but I think that the building industry needs to do a lot to improve the quality of what is delivered.
Interesting to hear this from the building side more. Our carpenter asked us to pay day rate and materials a while ago and as we knew he was a hard worker it was fine. Ditto for the painter, where it's worked out brilliantly because we've been able to add bits of work that were not planned without complexity. Not sure I'd do it for a big project though, not unless I knew them very well
My Brother was a QS for massive firm. He was told by his chairman to price a job less than cost to ensure they got it. He told him not to worry because they would just knock the subbies. It would never get to court because the subbies would be soon bankrupt. Had enough. 45 years as a bricky and I'm out.
I've seen it where contractors on commercial jobs price low to win the work then hit the client with variations for the most trivial things. Only works for the first few jobs though.
Many years ago, companies used to have a agreement whereby contracts would be given out by the "lowest" price. They arranged between themselves who would be the lowest price this time. It worked very well for everybody. The the government stepped in and broke it up-so now everybody is at every others throats. Thats the base of all we have now. GREED AND MONEY
A big building firm tried this on us once. Luckily I had the foresight to hire a contract arbitrator and not a solicitor to deal with it because I could see where it was going. He had a multimillion pound firm wrapped up in a bankruptcy petition within a couple of weeks with no option other than to pay us or be liquidated. You just need the right advice.
The construction industry is facing significant challenges & in my opinion is broken, with clients often assuming the role of makeshift project managers. This situation leads to confusion and complications, as clients direct subcontractors to carry out additional tasks behind the primary contractor's back. Consequently, unexpected work is completed without proper authorization or discussion about payment, resulting in disputes when the client refuses to cover the cost of these extra tasks. My last two clients have turned on us just as the projects coming to a close. Bloody nightmare and very costly.
I see a lot of builders misdescribing the ordering of material as “project management”. This then gets billed for as an added expense 😂 It is no more difficult or time consuming, than writing out your weekly shopping list. Is that managing the kitchen stock project? There are indeed significant challenges in the industry and none more so than the greed and sheer dishonesty within it.
Endured that with one customer about 10 yrs ago. I spent a lot of time with her and gave her a lot of good advice. She then ignored all of what I'd said, tried to manage a fairly large restoration job and made a pigs ear of it. I took payment in stages and didn't get stung too badly but the main contractor got hit hard. A lot of paranoia on both sides.
I am now retired but regularly use a small builder who quotes me for the labour only. Any materials used either I purchase directly or pay them on production of merchants receipts. This way I know I am not being ripped off on cost of materials and there is no risk to the builder in any rises of material costs.
Talking to electricians on sites I’m always shocked to hear that the reason they managed to get a trade is because their father or uncle etc was in the trade. It is difficult for others to break the barrier. An up and coming electrician needs to go to college. After collage he needs to find a firm that will further train him. It’s easy if your father is in the trade not, if he’s not. It’s a little like a union closed shop. You have to be in the family/union to get a job. No contacts no job, no training, no time to study.
Big companies taking the mickey out of subbies but paying them sub-par rates is my biggest problem. Too many cowboys and having to unfu@k their bodge before starting my job. The "DIY" customer who has watched a few videos, cocked it up, then complains when you charge your rate because "its only an hours work." This list goes on.
I must be a good guy. My extensions and other work I have always paid for the materials as and when they were needed. Secondly because I was "on site" and could see problems as they arose I was sympathetic to labour/time increses as well. I have, therefore, got a circle of good brickies, plasterers, plumbers and electricians.
I'm not a builder, i'm a wall/floor tiler and wished i jumped ship years ago. Always, always chasing money to the point i have to beg for it. And dealing with people has become ever harder, they always want cheaper, they question my knowledge and my pricing because they looked 'on the internet' the and where i live it seems tilers are two a penny. For years work was steady, i was happy with my income, it paid the bills but the past 3 or 4 years, like many have been difficult. Not jealous of what anyone else earns but have a mate who works in recruitment, works from home in his pyjamas, turns his laptop off at 4.30, no overheads and pulls in 65k a year. Sick of it.
Too much nonsense from all quarters is becoming prevalent in construction now. This video is 100% relatable to me, especially the customers trying to knock money off all the time. In the past year I’ve pulled off 2 jobs due to customer behaviour and turned down at least three because the customers tried to shift the goalposts after prices and schedules were agreed. Sometimes I despair in human nature. No wonder so many people are leaving to make an easier living elsewhere. People complain because they can’t get a plumber or electrician or builder, but quite often these same people are part of the reason nobody can get trades when they start playing silly buggers with the ones working for them. Most decent customers don’t harass you once work is agreed I find.
The worst customers are the ones who negotiate after the job is done. I end up giving them a moral lecture for 30 mins every time. If they don't pay then we have a meet and greet.
On larger projects they need to manage risk… of course prices will go up, schedules will slip… the trick is… to be forewarned is to be forearmed. Managing expectations with the client and being transparent is key to happy clients. The lesson perhaps for builders is to be upfront about risks, tell them this is the cost and schedule, but here are the risks as well… AND… what you can do to mitigate those risks. Regularly discuss those risks and progress and the delivery logic, and clients won’t feel like they are being fleeced in the face of bonafide price increases and delays. Perhaps go as far as including a risk budget on top of your estimate.
I agree with you 👍 I've been self employed since 1980 and sadly there are rogue builders out there that will use labourers to do tradesmans work. I've also had too many rouge customers that didn't intend to pay in the first place. I've also had a lot of bad experiences working for the "SS" (Snide Surveyor's) some surveyors are devious and underhand, surveyors will take the meat out of your sandwich while you are eating it. (These are the very people that should be setting a good example) They all seem to know the same dirty tricks.
A good customer is one who understands price & effort fluctuations, unfortunately they are uncommon. I got out a while back but before, I had started stripping the material costs away from the labour & get the customer to pay the list of materials ordered then I would pick up for them. A quick call with a credit card by the customer & presto. The customer keeps the receipts, I don't have to bother with declaring them as costs on my accounts. But best of all, not only does it provide transparency, the leftover materials are an issue for the customer so I would happily take them away for free & if there was a lot tgey could be returned to the merchant & the customer gets the refund...
Some of those problems can be solved by good communication and clear written agreements. For instance, if materials prices go up, just show the customer the invoice. Explain what goes into your quote and where the uncertainties are, and agree a strategy for dealing with unforeseens eg. agree a day rate to do extra work not foreseen in the quote. Most people are reasonable enought to accept some uncertainty IF you explain it clearly to them, and can demonstrate that you're not ripping them off.
Good builders. The really good ones are gold dust and should not be afraid to CHARGE. I was given a hefty quote for my roof but was happy to pay the high price because I knew the roofer had a good reputation. You get what you pay for so my advice to good quality hard working, salt of the earth builders out there is don't be afraid to give quotes that are on the generous side because honest customers will pay if they know the builder is a good and quality one. We should have good builders working for good people. If you are a builder and you put in a generous quote and the customer tries to drive down your quote - walk away and don't be afraid to do so. It's a sign that your customer is going to be a problem.
Sounds so much like my 40years in the building industry, these days it’s all materials paid for prior to delivery, any increase in costs is paid for by the customer, all wages paid every week on time or the job stops and I pull off, all extra work is paid and agreed in advance, i don’t give credit and I’m not a bank so don’t ask .
Trust A Trader needs Trust A Customer. Need a public registry of people who play fairly and those that don't. A quick lookup and we all know where we stand. We could put politicians on there too :-))
I am not in the trade, but I do most of my own DIY jobs because I struggle to find a builder I trust, also because of so many good RUclipsrs showing how things should be done then the builder you've hired doesn't do it the same way, sometime I wish I was more ignorant, as ignorant is bliss. Also the government backed certification is not worth the paper it written on, I had external wall insulation out on my old house and it was a nightmare from start to finish and was government backed. I started using checkatrade and rated people, which improves things somewhat, but I still feel the standards are not as great as they could be. Builders are always in a rush to finish the job even if I tell that at the start, I want the job done properly rather than speed. It is a dilemma and a sad state of affairs. I would love to know what the solution is.
There’s more than one way to do many things if you was in the trade you would understand, you tube short and TikTok builders are the worst you should be watching then trying to tell people how to do their job, I can see this being why you can’t find a builder. You need to get one recommended not from some company trying to profit , most of us that don’t need to advertise wouldn’t dream of being on those apps it’s like building equivalent of a just eat company
Indeed I'd rather do any job myself. Just I'm often left in the dilemma where I can't legally do a job because I have to be "certified and up to date". For instance installing an EV charge point. Not difficult, can know the rules and regs, but unless I'm a registered electrician I can't do it. Then you see cowboy registered electricians do a bodge job and "illegally" have to fix it to make it compliant.🤦♂️
@stephenfanthorpe2708 I always try to get recommendations, how ever a a deaf person that's uses sign language to communicate and living far away from family, it is not easy to get recommendations. As a hobbyist woodworker I know there are hundred of ways to do the same thing, however somethings I see people do are just something to be done quick enough so they can move on to the next job. I am careful who I follow on RUclips. I look for people who are usually in the trade.
Damn! Well done. Say it how it is Roger. As a sole practicing local architect for 30 years, I fully agree with you. So many issues to discuss here though.
There’s to many rouge traders out there too. Undercutting the real workers. And with prices going up customers are obv gonna go with cheaper prices. Problem is these rouge traders are making more money than us.
If your customer is more concerned about price over value - or can't understand the difference between the two - you've already got the wrong type of customer. So let them go with the cheapest. They will call you back when they want it redone correctly. sounds harsh, I promise you it nearly always pans out that way.
As a property developer who also works for clients, this video summed it up perfectly Property Development makes around £500-1000 PER DAY when you’re on the tools yourself, compared to £150-200/day doing far more stressful work for clients I hate working in other peoples houses, genuinely hate it. Trashing your knees and back for average wages, fuck that
In my case I went back into the electrical trade in my late 50s working for a local electrical contractor just to nudge myself nearer to the state pension and lasted 4 years before chucking it in. Luckily I had things in life sorted moneywise so the wage didn't need to be fantastic but as it turned out JIB gold card or not I would be running a small job, couple of sparks and apprentices for the grand totall of £90 per week more than the older 19 year old apprentice. It's not neccessarily the kids fault but most of them have no experience of pyro, metal conduit, SWA over 25mm2 or cell pack joints on over 6.00mm2 armoured, as an old duffer I was expected to teach this for free, test installations and complete the job on time for less money than an evening shift picker in a local Sainsburys warehouse. It was easy to jack but my kids will just have to inherit a bit less I guess?
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I've been a bricky for 25 years, I predominantly do new build site work.
The industry made us all self employed back in 2010, no holiday pay, no pension, no job security.
We're picked up and dropped at their whim constantly.
Ripped off at every opportunity by multiple middle men before we get paid.
The industry is absolutely on its knees.
Why would anyone want to come into it.
Yeah its a shit hole mate i been bricklaying for years its all going down hill! Too many nob heads in suits and subbys just rob the back out of workers
I’m in exactly the same position. 25yrs too. Every month the NHBC want more more more but the prices don’t even begin to reflect the amount of work going in to producing good quality houses.
I know your pain. Site joiner myself. Working on a site last summer. Looked at prices same house type from 2010 so 13 years later. First and second fix prices had gone up by £2!!! Not even worth turning up on site anymore
@@KuwaharaBMXRider bloody joke isn’t it. Especially when lazy ferkers carry on and our money keeps looking after them
Thank goodness you have had your cash jobs .although that is not enough compensation for a skill.
I’m finished in the building industry, worked from the age of 14, paid stupid amounts of tax, abused my body 5-7 days a week and my body has now said NO MORE, i will miss the industry but will not miss the tax bills, endless red tape and constant chasing of regulation changes. I am genuinely devastated and now facing long term sick and don’t really know how to cope with this situation. I am getting help but this has hit me like a steam train!
Why did you pay so much more tax than the rest of us?
Something to do with earning too much, perchance?
Come and work in the general maintenance sector. It's decent steady pay and easy going. A good job to retire on. And there's plenty around too.
Wishing you well my friend
I met guy doing that in London and he always looks happy, what Is the best way in for someone with just diy experience ? I did a refit bathroom and kitchen and renovation of my own place
To all of us working in the construction industry (me for 42 years & still going because I can’t afford not to) this is pure gold. You just told the story of our lives! Brilliant 👍🏻
I mean, be honest, the only reason you are still working after 42 years is because you spent all your money in your 20s and 30s and didn't invest any of it in the stock market / pension funds. That's your decision, nobody else's.
When I left Uni and started my first job setting out on construction sites, I learned so much from tradesmen and gained huge respect for these people. It took a few years before I earned their respect in return, but now, 35 years on as an engineer, I never forget those tradesmen that helped me convert from theoretical and academic world into being experienced in practical delivery. I know how hard their job is and in most cases they are underpaid for what they do.
Thank you
I’m a bricklayer. 26 years old. Tried working for myself full time this year after sub contracting for a long time. I hated every second of it, running around quoting jobs you’re probably not going to get because either there is someone cheaper or the customer just wants to “get an idea of how much it costs”. People don’t value good workmanship and the same goes for sub contracting, nobody values a loyal, good worker who is damn good at their job so you end up working for often less than some of the bad ones. I want to get out, but feel stuck. I know I’m not the only one to feel this way. The industry isn’t worth getting into and I wish I’d listened to people telling me when I was an apprentice. I, like many, love the work, the banter, the people you meet, but what I can’t stand is everything that comes with it and the politics.
Couldn't agree more 👏 count all them hours and see what you are working for
I had itchy feet around your age and I left at 27 (carpenter). I took a loan and trained with the nfff to learn how to run a fish and chip shop. Never looked back
@@ewwtv7553
😂😂😂 everyone loves fish & chips. Good move.
Don't regret, any skill in life is good to have, in years to come when you need to do some work on your own house you'll be glad you know bricklaying
You're 26 mate....26! (That's young!)
I was nearly in tears listening to you , I thought these last two years was just me … failing . I’m no cowboy I’m doing this since I was 19 and my dad was doing the same , we are old school trust based word of mouth builders and build as if it was our own homes .
Where’s part 2 , I want answers suggestions , solutions .
Thanks roger much appreciated video
Shocked to hear King James has left the industry. He was a terrific craftsman and a lovely guy. Unbelievable really.
His last job was probably working for the 🔔🔚who was first to leave a comment.
OMG, OMG, OMG!
You have just hit every single nail 100% smack on the head!
Having spent almost 40 years in the trade (now retired) I have over the years experienced every situation you mentioned.
Always went above and beyond for my clients, mostly never appreciated.
Mostly ending up out of pocket.
Felt a huge weight had been taken off me when I finally bowed out and called it a day.
Many times asked to take on projects, even though I needed the money, my answer was ‘NO THANKS, NEVER AGAIN!
As a “customer” I found this extremely interesting. In 2019 I had an extension built (circa £150k) and having received several fixed price quotes (one of which was ludicrously low) I eventually shook hands with a builder who agreed for me to pay for all the building materials direct. He sourced it, ordered it and I paid for it. I paid his electrician, plasterer, brickie etc direct. The “fixed” payment was that which I paid to him split evenly over the course of the job. I was happy that there was no contingency fat built into the quote for materials and he was happy that his profit was protected. It worked out really well for us both - and we have remained good mates since. I realise it’s not a common business model but it removed a lot of potential points of conflict and was generally less stressful for both parties.
Quote: "He sourced it, ordered it and I paid for it". Thing is this model has allowed many builders to remain under the VAT registration threshold which ,if investigated the Builder can be prosecuted for vat fraud. It's saved you 20% VAT on all the Labour but may have also broken the law.
@@AdrianSams I can’t see how it can be breaking the law. There’s nothing unlawful about me buying materials and paying an expert to use them…..and at no point did I say I saved by not paying any VAT.
@@AdrianSams It would be difficult for HMRC to prove that, 'Sourcing and ordering' doesn't leave a paper trail.
@@kevinturner8343 Hi Kevin, so if a Builder who is not subcontracting but taking on jobs of £150k and is showing throughout his tax year that he is working on large projects with lots of Labour invloved but next to no materials then HMRC can claim he is avoiding the requirement to register for VAT by keeping his turnover below the VAT Threshold of £85k turnover in a single year. They may claim he actively avoided the scheme by contriving to keep his turnover under £85k which may well be tax evasion. As a different example but gives you an idea of the rules : A builder sets up 1 business and his turnover exceeds the threshold to register for vat (£85k) in a rolling 12months then he is required to register for vat and charge 20% on all of his labour which makes him expensive compared to non vat businesses. If he set up a 2nd business doing the same work (Building) and put half his business through each company, say each business turnover is £50k then he has commited an offence by contriving to keep his turnover artifically low to avoid vat registration.
I may be wrong but if your builder shows he is doing work for private clients but only on a labour basis whic will keep him below the vat threshold then he may well have contrived to remain out of the vat scheme. Bit long winded but I do know a couple of builders who are being looked into by HMRC. I run a vat registered Joinery and work for buidlers as well as private clients. They all charge labour and materials and have a profit margin on the materials they supply.
@@lksf9820 I agree but taking on contracts of that size for private clients will show up in accounts. If they go back say 3yrs and see the builders turnover was less but supplying lots of materials and then he takes on large builds which would take him over the vat threshold but remains under by supplying labour they will ask questions. With HMRC and vat the onus is on the buidler to show why he is not supplying materials. VAT is different to tax investigations. They may claim the builder has contrived to evade registering. The vat on the labour aspect of a £150k job will be a lot of money.The client would have paid the vat on the materials. It's an interesting debate and I will ask my accountants and see what they come back with.
Spot on description mate, the problem is also compounded on larger jobs by QS's who are happy to send small - medium sized business's to the wall to save 50 pence.
well said qs are the pain in everyones life
QS’s, book building illiterates. And egotistical power mad losers. I began the route into it soon finding that this bunch of egotists weren’t work the price of entry. One, after two years of college, stood in a field proudly stating he wasn’t paying for the lack of concrete along the sewer run, the contractor telling him that if it went along the run they’d be no expansion and the concrete pipes would fracture. It was enough to see me quit within the year. Idiots with egos. Sadly the same idiots that proliferate across all sectors nowadays.
Qs's are the curse of the industry
You have to send every deviation, photos, description and cost. Wait for instruction. Do something else while waiting, NEVER do that work without an instruction.
At 63 ive nearly had enough. Started hod carrying 1977, started bricklaying 1980 and building extensions in 1988. Financially home and dry by 2006. I worked weekends, bank holidays, seldom ill enough to not go in. Enjoyed a lot of personal freedom and made a few bob, however, didnt get a pension, no bank holidays or paid sick. So i made every day count.
Its still a good living and if people want out , then just go. Some of my close relatives are teachers, always complaining about their lot. Others are coppers, thats difficult too. Maybe as a nation were fragmenting, lack of resiliance. What else are people going to do? Graft always wins out.
The Libtards took over the country and now we’re all suffering 🙄
Why didn't you get a pension? Presumably you paid national insurance at some point during those 49 years of work?
@@kevinsyd2012I think he means a work related pension.
@@Martin-hc6xc He and his company could have paid into a SIPP. They've been around since the late 80s. So many people neglect pensions when they start work only to complain when they retire and realise they do not have a pension...
@@kevinsyd2012 His point is no one contributed a penny towards a pension despite a life time of hard work, nor has he received sick pay, holiday pay or bank holidays. Literally
nothing. Compare that to people employed by the state.
Heating guy here. I’ve had enough now, 20 years self employed, sick, stressed, working too much and too hard, not being truly valued, helping people out, but as soon as your not available immediately they drop you for someone else. Being betrayed by family has been the final nail in the coffin.
I’m going to try and be a boring 9-5 smart meter fitter in 2024.
I hope the meter fitting course explains how the 13th amendment regs were updated to using non-combustible consumer units off the back of the increased number of fires that were actually down to smart meters fitted onto reused meter tails that were oxidised, making high resistance connections causing overheating! But they probably won't...
I'm coming with you m8
Right on there about family. @effing sicking
Absolutely right . No loyalty from customers (another heating guy).
Word of mouth is the best way. It's lovely to have a customer who loves your work so much that they fight your corner and/or provide a continuous supply of work from themselves and/or their friends. Getting there is another story. Great video!
Just turned 60 no intrest in working any more .after plannedemic.
Word of mouth is how I get all of my work as I don't advertise, I used to sign write my van and did get some work that way but I haven't bothered with that when I purchased my present van.
@@ilijadjujic5911 if you can get away with not sign writing your van, your much less likley to get robbed, i dont have mine sign writted for this reason
The best way. Happens more than people realise. Peace brother.
I fixed cars 4 years never advertised always had work. No garage so I was super cheep. N just fix it and you always get more to repair.
As a plumber/gas engineer I always tried to judge the customer when going to quote. Turned down quite a few jobs, particularly those who wanted a fixed quote for a job with a lot of unknowns.
.... and you were right to do so. You are there to make money, not be a charity. Any customer that is not able to write a spec to include contingencies for unknowns should be avoided. The way I used to tackle this was to have a T&M clause in the contract to cover those unknowns that we both agreed upfront could not be quantified.
On the flip side, customers need a fixed price, to know how to budget effectively and ensure they can pay you in full and on time. If costs escalate, many families on a budget simply cannot afford to take that gamble.
But that is not the builders problem. @@splottcardiff3993
If they are that close to the edge then they are living beyond their means and should not proceed. Someone needs to take the risk and it should not be all on the trady.@@splottcardiff3993
@@whitefields5595 Customers who write detailed specs, materials etc get 0 quotes because they are regarded as "smart-asses" that are hard to overcharge.
Why would you expect to spend 20, 50, 100+ grand without a contract. And why would a builder risk shelling out thousands of materials and labour without the protection of a contract. It might be okay for a quick interior job or a porch, but anything bigger needs some paperwork. We are talking about big sums of cash here. Both sides need to understand how it will be spent and what the end product is, otherwise one or both sides will end up disappointed.
Couldn’t agree more.
Remember customers employing tradesmen also have had to work hard to earn money they will be paying. These MUST be a contract in place with clear responsibilities especially as for some of us, these are our life savings we spend to live in a decent place.
ALL work, no matter what amount, should have a contract, especially if you are free=lance to a builder!!!
This game of the builder buying materials is just so they can whack a 10-15% profit on top. Builders forget that it isn’t the 1970s anymore where you really needed accounts at merchants like Travis.
These days, I can pull my phone out and order 80% of the raw materials online, in about 5mins. And all of it deliverable within 48hrs max. If a builder can’t plan a job to within 2 days, he is incompetent.
@imconfused1237 this one makes my laugh sometimes as being a builder I get told this alot... for the customer to tell me how much they'd paid... for me to only laugh... a regular builder with the same merchant or shopping around should normally be able to save you money with making money on top too! That extra% covers expensive, warranty work ect... why would someone self employed work for let's say £30hr to you... when they can probably go get £30hr subbing to someone else with no stress?❤
@@matthewatkinson6207As I said buddy, it’s not the 70s anymore. Anyone can go into the big merchants, open an account and get trade prices on a big order. And as for ‘shopping around’, that’s what a search engine is for: it’ll compare prices quicker than any human ever could.
There is no justification for applying some 10-15% surcharge on top of material. Thats the game. But the builder is adding ZERO value - it’s just a greedy mark-up. So I always remove the middleman and order my own material; funny how builders don’t seem to like that, and yet I’m dissolving their liability. No one rips me off.
Couldnt agree more........ im a 44 yrs old Bricklayer by trade / builder!! I am totally jaded by the building trade. Site work is terrible contractors paying peanuts and the standard of work on most sites is disgusting. Back in the day site work was great you could earn decent money and to do a good job was a given. The domestic sector is a more pleasurable work environment for me im not surrounded by a bunch of children measuring there manhoods like on site but some of the customers are out for nothing more than to rip you off. There is alot of good clients but plenty of bad ones. After a recent rogue client went after us for a job we did im now back to having as little hassle as possible subcontracting to a local builder. The building trade nowadays is pretty dire!
Well I've been on the trowel for 40+years now ( still going strong) but I totally agree with you about site work, the standard is shit, majority can't build a 20 course corner, "oh I only use profiles" is the normal response. And then of course you have CSCS enforcers who know fuck all about building but rigourously follow every health & safety rule in the book with the end result being no productivity. Great example being hard hats, fine if there's something above you but when your in a bloody field doing footings? I'll never set foot on one again, it was once well paid & good crack...now it's like being at school!
My son in law closed his electrician business in the summer. He was able to find alternative work for his two employees. Frankly the stress of running the business was not worth the return. Especially after two businesses went into liquidation (only to spring up again) owing him £35K - basically worked a year for nothing. Becoming an employee and getting paid holidays, private health insurance and employer pension contributions made giving up his own business a no brainer.
The businesses liquidating and then reappearing is an old trick called phoenixing: www.gov.uk/government/publications/phoenix-companies-and-the-role-of-the-insolvency-service/phoenix-companies-and-the-role-of-the-insolvency-service
The same in any business, life is very easy for employees. Especially in small businesses the last to get any money is the 'owner' everyone else has to be paid first. The business bit is the horrible bit for craftsmen oriented makers and doers. Needs to be a big business to have people that do the non working stuff, costing, 'selling', accounts etc. instead of the owner who probably is a natural craftsman not form filler.
In the end the jobbing builder goes replaced by big corporate entities. The result? The corporates push up prices to profit more. Then the jobbing builder returns to profit. Then the cycle begins again. In the end only the customer loses, which is the builder and corporate, materials rising to reflect the growing money pile that’s being raided. It’s the perpetuation of avarice.
Excellent well-written summary of the capitalist cycle. Analogous to the private rental sector where Gove's landlord-bashing is all the rage with this Consocialist government. All that has happened is the supply of rented properties has diminished and so rents have gone up. The Corporates smell the blood in the water and move it. Best of luck Renter when you find out your landlord is a New York hedge fund manager!@@brynleytalbot778
Too late for your Son in Law , poor guy try best and that happens 100p% not right.
There is invoice insurance/factoring for others maybe. I think it's around 10% fee this would also be a tax deductable charge
Part of the problem for customers is they are getting fed up with poor workmanship. The last 3 jobs I’ve had done resulted in a not plum flue, a leaking toilet and a car that has the same noise on the part that it went into the shop with.
I have been let down so many times I expect it and I’m getting fed up with with it. I don’t exist for the benefit of the builder/tradesman. I pay them to do work for me to a level that is acceptable and often don’t get it.
So far I’ve ended up having to do the work that I’ve paid the tradesman to do.
I would like to be able to pay someone and them do the job properly, but that seems to be a lottery nowadays.
There also the problem that you can't trust the "trusted" sites that recommend tradespeople, as there's a strong incentive for them to keep their tradespeople paying for their listings, even if they can't be trusted.
Agree mate I've tried both ways. The Wickes plumber or the direct tradie. I've spec'd what I want and said don't take short cuts. I don't care about needing to pay an extra few quid when you find a problem or like you said materials keep going up. Let me know and I'll work with you. But I keep finding they've cut corners or not done what I specified eg Copper pipes not plastic or electric cables not routes the way I asked.
@@purplemonkeydishwasher5269 Agreed, and the prices demanded are ridiculous, gas safe installer £750 a day for a tradesman and a lad. How much does a doctor get? Less than half that.
@@Choppit53 agree, I think also that people who have had a bad experience with a "Trusted Trader" simply can't be bothered to write a negative review. Word of mouth is the only way left.
I agree that's why I did a carpentry course was sick of paying overpriced carpenters and having to finish there work for them
So true Roger. I'm lucky enough to have traded on word of mouth for the last 30 years. However, when I go to see a prospective client, I go with the mindset that its me deciding if I want to work with them, not the other way around.
Yes.
Exactly how we do it. We also think do we need that job especially if it’s a ball ache. Let’s have the easy money
As above and so it should be
This is the key - you work with people, not for them.
Yes I used to tell my customers at the end of the 2nd meeting whether they'd passed the interview or not 😏, sets the precedent early, it's also good to remind them frequently that they're lucky to have your skills there!!
I've been a site joiner and I'm quitting at the age of 54. I've had enough. People stacking shelves in aldi earn more than me. I looked at a price list from 12 years ago and for the same house type prices had gone up by £2!!
At one point last year I was doing 5 days getting dragged all over site by a site manager and coming home with £300 for five days and fuel was costing me £100 I saw a lad begging outside Aldi when I called in on my way home and I said you probably have more than me mate. I nearly ended up not being able to pay my share of the mortgage. In the end I left site and have been odd jobbing and labouring for cash just to get straight. New year I'm looking for any job that's cards in and regular. Self employed in construction is a mugs game
@danielmorrison1384what 😕
You need to work direct for customers, no middle men.
@danielmorrison1384 I'm not sure what you mean ?
@@jimdavis8391 you're possibly right but then everyone is a "RUclips registered " property developer these days. The Tories destroyed manufacturing and sent all the work to China. There's 0% growth in the real economy and the property growth is 20% per year. The only way to make money is either through property or getting high up in the public sector industries.
To be honest I'd rather get out of building
@danielmorrison1384 he has freedom he has a choice he could get a job, he has benefits. I'm working for a pittance so I can one day say i own a house by the time I'm 70? I work an have nothing left. Every penny I earn goes to pay bills, van,
Fuel, tools. Insurance
My girlfriend and I have been together for 20 years. We have never been able to afford a holiday. We don't go out we can't afford to. We have to be very frugal. I only eat a meal at night. I can't afford lunch I'm basically in slavery by definition. Working for nothing. I rather think the other guy is better off than me. At least he has free choice. I'm in servitude
Imagine working a five day week to come home with £300 and it's cost you £120 for fuel that week. Then living with the pressure of trying to find £1200 per month to pay bills when you struggle to earn anywhere near that.
Thats why I become a bloody good Do it yourself person, so long as you have a good aptitude towards the project your taking on, all the info is out there, yes it takes longer than the professional, but so satisfying, and money saving, it opens your eyes to the cost of materials too!!!
And the reality is you’ll probably do a more competent job than some people calling themselves pro’s. 😉
Just one problem with learning from info practical skills can’t be learned properly from anything other than being shown by a tradesman directly and honing skills over time 😊 just my opinion I was a self employed builder for fifty years 🖖
You have to invest in a lot of tools.
I don't like DIY, especially plumbing, but at least I'll plumb stuff properly with copper and pipe benders. The plumber who did the cloakroom here used pushfit crap and flexible hoses.
I quit this year due to domestic problems and a change in demographic client base. I'm not a racist but certain demographics are more problematic than others ,so screw it I've had enough of being treated like white trash.
The people makes the culture, the culture doesn’t make the people. I just got back from Poland. The trust there, the civil fabric is so beautifully intact, it really shows you how tattered and wrecked the Uk social fabric is. It’s heading in the same direction there though. Funny talking to them, they aspire to be even more “progressive”. I try and warn them what they’re progressing towards but they won’t see it. They think you put oranges with apples and the oranges become apples. Not all of them mind, but all it takes is a slow drip of people in charge eroding the social fabric with grifters who want to take more than give, and eventually you end up with the UK
Let THEIR demographics do their work. F-ck um. Peace and goodwill
Ind ian?
@@maxtroyit's such a shame the young polish didn't see that.
It devastated the polish demographic.
They will also have to import a lot of immigrants in years to come to plug the gap.
Park-east-arnies. Aka park-ease
When a prospective customer starts trying to dictate a lower price for a job.....walk away. I speak from experience.
I used to ask them which bits of the proposed job they wanted me to leave out. It was generally the rich ones who appeared to be slaves to their greed and unable to stop themselves from trying it on. Our present government appears to be mainly manned by such people coincidence or otherwise.
Absolutely spot on. When they start wanting a lower price they are really asking you to take a cut in your wages because they definitely don't want to be getting cheaper materials. I'm packing it in this year because I couldn't be bothered any more. I'm lucky I'm financially secure but I work with a bloke who's 67 and has to keep working as he hasn't got a pension other than the state pension. He does brilliant work, doesn't need to advertise but he still gets the look when he asks for money on Friday. Some people want work done for free. He often tells them next time they are in Tesco's, see if they will be offered any discount on the weekly shop or if they will allow payment next week instead. The price is the price - any less and he's the loser.
Interesting video Roger and Dylan. I think it’s so vital to only work for nice people, ideally people that are friends or acquaintances of existing customers. I try and stay within about a 2 mile radius, I also don’t entertain probably 50% of the random phone calls I get from tyre kickers looking to get a job done yesterday. It’s a lot of work even going out to see new jobs, then spending hours working on a good quality quotation. I discuss figures with the customers at a very early stage before doing too much work, to make sure we are at least in the same ball park.
I've been a builder for 42 years and agree completely with what you say. I now work on day rate and customer pays materials and sub contractors separately. I've been knocked in the past and would rather loose wages if I am to be knocked rather than a larger sum.
I’m the same over forty years in the trade and I do exactly the same I don’t know why anyone stays in the trade so said
Is that an Army number?
I work through agencies. I pay my tax etc.and make a decent living. I don't touch price work which means I'll never get the big bucks, but I'll never work for free/a loss either. I ran my own business for a while, but it was a hassle and I only made a living: nothing more. The worst customers for paying up and agreeing on a price were the wealthy ones. The less well -off ones were generally sound as a pound.
As architect, I am 100% agree with you about client paying materials and subcontractors separately. The reason I can see from here, is that main (rogue or mismanaged) contractors can't divert client's deposits onto contractor's own bussines problems or to send money away to other management portfolios. That is the reason in Australia, is looking for a system like that, so builders don't collapse
@@gudnergiovannilondono9396 in no way is this personal but the standard of architects drawings and details is going down as well I feel. Also often get drawings now with zero or minimal dimensions on it
Great video!
As a landscape business co owner I must add the extra challenge for us, the British weather!
Its costing us a lot of lost days of delays, of course the guys still get paid so we ended up making no money on most jobs...
Its been very challenging and after 15 of this we are thinking of packing up as we say "make more money working at tescos"...
Happy New Year and hopefully for the best...
As a semi-retired spark one of the biggest issues I constantly see in the building industry is rogue builders defending other rogue builders. I've seen it time and time again. They seem to want the cowboys to exist to make their own work look better. Its all a bit of a mess, glad I'm pretty much out of it.
Well this has always been the problem in this country. You learn a trade and get experience but find after a while that it doesn’t have any value to you. You work hard and get nowhere while others profit from your labour, ridiculous when you step back and look at it.
Thats because there are no unions anymore and employers are allowed cheap labour without qualifications to rule the roost.
I'm self employed and it feels like current government hates the self employed
That is true
This is absolutely true. Their only interest is in the huge businesses. No one in government is on our side.
I’m self employed too. Be careful what you wish for. Let’s hope the gov forgets about us and let’s us quietly get on with making money….
They hate English working people full stop
@@Paul-qk4oj Labour have tried and will carry on trying to get rid of SE everytime they’re in power. The SE is not good for the socialist/communist dream.
Hi Roger, I've decided to quit after 43 years as a decorator, The last 6 years doing my own work. I managed to get through the pandemic crisis but since then it has been a struggle to keep working consistently. I have some lovely customers that all pay me promptly, but I just don't quite have enough of them. The final nail in the coffin for me was back in October I caught covid which laid me up for 4 weeks. As a result I lost 2 jobs as I was unable to start them on time and 3 jobs got put back until after christmas. So I've decided to quit the industry altogether. I'm looking to get a job where I can get up go to work, do a mundane job without any worries then go home switch off, have my tea, watch a bit of telly or youtube, then go to bed. I'm looking forward to living a less stressed life. I will miss my customers but I won't miss the stress nor the 24/7 time consuming work.
I’m finding the same. Struggling to get enough work to keep me busy throughout the year. Fortunately I have a wife who earns enough to pay all the family and household bills but mentally I’m struggling with not being able to contribute enough financially. Last paid job was September so I’ve even taken jobs such as clearing gutters to earn some cash. At the moment I’ve 6 deco jobs in the diary for 2024 but that’s it and I’m not alone with that in fact a friend whose also a decorator at this point in time has zero jobs booked for 2024. It’s tough but at 58 I’m gonna just limp along as long as I can.
@@les9920sorry to hear that buddy. Have you looked into better marketing? Maybe upscaling image, new uniform, van wrapping, specialising in something in particular? I.e paper hanging or coving/cornice specialist? I came to the same crossroads as you around 4 or 5 years ago, had plenty of work but all of it was for landlords and cheapskates so I decided to completely remarket myself and my business. I now have many high end clients and I have excellent non stressful working relationships with them as they're usually too busy or stressed themselves to bother me with this, that and the other. Keep at it bud and I'm here to bounce ideas off if you need it. Us deccys should stick together 👍
@@les9920 - How come there are tradesman saying they are struggling to get work, and yet when I try and find a tradesman I can't get one for months? Just geographical perhaps?
Great video, the only thing, I'm aware of that you didn't mention was, the average age of the builder/tradesperswon, many are 50 plus now, and either winding down or retiring., and as you did say very few coming in at the other end. So it's a natural progression, the younger generations, coming out of school don't want to do manual work, everything is more computer based since the 1990's plus they can get more working in a supermarket, than they can as an apprentice, plus most small business's don't want apprentices, as they don't want to be dealing with the hard to deal with CITB(How about a video about them?) I've been self employed since 1986 initially as a sub-contractor but mainly running a small domestic business , and I'd say most Building firms don't last more than 10 years anyway, not just now, but over the years, I'm 58 now and winding down to a part time operation, like most of my piers around me, in my area NW England. Hello to all the hardworking trades people and builders, I love your show, thanks for the videos. Regards Tim
That's a point on the amount of building firms that don't last ten years or more
When I think back there is a load of them that are now gone
@mickyates9154 Good luck to the young ones.
I can see why so many people get discouraged trying to run a trades business today. Trying to find skilled help is almost impossible. Training people is expensive. Customers who take months to make a decision and want it tomorrow even though you have to make it. to run a trade business you have to be a business man and a tradesman. Many of us are not good at the business part of it. Thanks for your video. It hit many of my weaknesses while in business.
"...a fantastic place to work, so long as you don't have to make money out of it."
A brilliant statement. The business side of it is a complete nightmare!
Good video. My father was a carpenter before WWII. After a few years of working for others he decided to build houses on speculation. After 3 years overseas he had saved up enough to afford to do the first house from his savings. He designed and built the house and didn't put it up for sale until a month before completion. He hated real estate agents who were trying to give him bad advice. It was a great way to do everything on his schedule and his way. Dad and all of his employees were WWII vets. They enjoyed working with each other and nobody was stupid enough to mess with them for long. Good Luck, Rick
That was 78 years ago...
@@englishdecorator The principle is still the same. Whether you build houses/flip houses, rebuild cars or boats, its that you work for yourself and profit or lose by your efforts.
Not in trade but am a DIY, the few times I have decided to get a "expert" in, they have made a mess. This is from plastering, to boiler installs, to a solar system. Many people no longer have faith in builders, so just don't bother anymore
You probably went for the cheapest option?
I have found trades I get in don’t seem to care. The last time I got a sparky in to add some sockets, he trapped the wires between the faceplate and back box. Luckily I don’t mind flicking power off and tidying it up but would have been a problem getting him back if I didn’t.
@@SeanRidley-g7z nope 15k for a solar install which I was left with a mess. 3k for a boiler install, took four weeks to get them back to finish.
Likewise
@@aronjgno he said he got an "expert" in. MCS maybe?
I think there’s more reasons than stated here tbh. I was a plasterer and re-trained in the legal profession (now do court cases for debt collection), so a big change. Part of the reason I changed was down to culture on the sites and bosses I worked for (weren’t very good), also many of the time served guys were advising me against staying in the industry due to problems with arthritis, hip, back and joint issues to look forward to in my 50’s. Add in the fact pension ages keep rising there was no way I could have seen out retirement as a plasterer. I work less hours, more money, work from home 3 days a week and have a warm, comfortable work environment and social hours. I wouldn’t go back now.
Oh, and strongly disagree on avoiding contracts. In any dispute they are crucial protection for you as a builder to show exactly what was quoted and agreed. Ensure your quotes state subject to change in material costs. Most people understand that material costs can fluctuate.
Any chance to let us know what way you retrained in a legal profession? I'm looking to an alternative for when I'll be in my 40's and my body will start crumbling... 😂
The solution seems obvious. Trades should work less hours but be paid good rates. The race into lifestyle acquisition is the demon not the trade itself. If you work yourself to death to make more to display more then you’ll eventually pay the price. Have tradesmen been their own worst enemy. And their incomes attracted partners who want the never ending social partying lifestyle on their terms without any genuine contribution. If you’re working as hard enjoying it as making it who is the real sucker.
@@marceaumouchene6264 I’m a contracts and civil litigation advanced paralegal now. Breach of contract cases (primarily collection of debts).
@@brynleytalbot778 I didn’t get much choice as an apprentice over my hours. I was expected to work the same hours as my peers. I found time off was seen as “skiving” and somehow being lazy. This improved when I moved from doing site work to domestic properties, but there were still issues. I honestly think that manual occupations like trades should qualify for lower retirement ages.
Flipping houses with a load of debt in a falling market is a dangerous game and definitely not stress free. Living in a rural area where the local builders get known for their work and the word gets about if you are a bad customer means most people are trusted. I know people who have been doing bathrooms and kitchens for the last 15 years and not had any serious problems from customers - though costs are more easily estimated and they charge for their work by the day.
Here in Southern Ireland i got a fitted Kitchen for a local supplier i gave them the measurements they planned out the location of same and picked out the Units, they came out and remeasured to see that all was good, and inspected the Electrical Plumbing location, then i had to Pay in Full and was to pay the Kitchen Fitters and the Electrician/Plumber on the Day. It worked out great and the Kitchen was in our old home which has been Rented for Twenty Years and those Bullet Proof Shaker style Units are still holding Up after all that use, the Company grew from strength to strength and is now one of the biggest in the Country... The Kitchen Fitters told me that the Company had to go down this route as many folks bounced cheques for a pastime others offered part payment and others wouldn't pay at all...
The secret with flipping houses is to build up a cash reserve before you start, Cash is always KIng in property matters. That way, you're not exposed to sudden rises in interest rates, as has recently been the case. The other thing with flipping houses is once you've sold them, if you've done your sums correctly, you'll have made a decent profit. Renting them out and getting paid from the tenant becomes someone else's problem, not yours. However, many people (currently over 3 million in the UK) have a portfolio of at least one property, with ever rising rents (in real terms), it can be quite lucrative, unless you get the wrong sort of tenant.
Yep, that's all over now. Next few years are gonna be 'interesting'.
I was a brickie and came off the tools back in 2020, the guy I worked with he did the same a year after me. Best thing I ever did. I was 48 years old when I changed career
Well done mate.....what did you choose as an alternative career out of interest. Being a bricklayer myself i would love to get out the trade.
Brickies make the best clerk of works and inspectors, it is worth employing one on a big project.
@davidboyle5761 they really do its a shame most clerk of works now are carpenters......yrs ago most clerk of works was ex bricklayers
career change, what did you switch into?
I would love to know what you changed to? It's hard to find anything decent out there.
I am an electrician and refrigeration and aircon engineer I worked in data centres etc did all sorts of M and E. I left last year and am retraining as a legal assistant at my wife firm doing conveyancing. 35 years of experience gone. the reason is the large company I worked for was bringing more tech trackers etc into the job and all it did was slow me up and stopped me doing the tasks needed. a simple bulb replacement would take 2 weeks on and of due to getting the quote ordering the part and fitting it. Drove me nuts for something we should have on the shelf. 14 years at that firm and every year no or a below inflation rise. I ended up over 8k down in real terms from when I started.
The biggest issue for me is material costs. My customer base that ive built up over the last 10 years are mainly working class people that are not poor by any means but not particularly wealthy. So jobs that they used to be able to afford are now unnafordable for them with me charging the same labour rates I charged when I started 10 years ago but double or there abouts for materials.
Another issue I seem to encounter is customers not willing to compromise on things like bifolding doors and quartz worktops. When I started building it was lots of uPVC french doors and laminate worktops. I tell customers they could save 7 or 8k (depending on the size of kitchen and bifild doors) if they go for french doors and laminate worktops and instead they just don't go ahead at all.
Added to that the ulez (I live in London) meaning second hand van costs have over doubled what they were 10 years ago and it's getting quite hard to make a living!
People's expectations have become ridiculous. Everyone wants a home like in the design magazines and a fancy new car and they're willing to work themselves to the bone for decades to get it.The kitchen benchtops, stainless appliances, thousand dollar phones... they're nice but i'm pretty sure none of it's worth it. You can have a marginally less beautiful version of the same thing for a 1/4 of the price. But whatever floats your boat i guess.
People are constantly sold upwards into ridiculous materials that actually offer no return over normal use or any extended lifetime because they change again at a whim. When you research the marketing it’s all been targeted at women whose brain chemistry and social hierarchy seeking make them easy pitches and retail addicts. Depressing reading. And terrifying when that research found that something around 80% of all major purchases are decided by the woman in the relationship even though it’s often funded by the man.
Retailers depend on women’s psychology and manipulating it to push better products because women think it’ll increase their status. The L’Oréal hype, “Because you’re worth it” is actually interpreted by the female mind as “Because without it you’re worthless”. When you’re faced with that mindset pushing the expensive option is easy even though it’s actually pointless and ridiculous. The woman isn’t making a choice, she’s complying with the social status the product supplier promotes as the real gain. You can’t beat that. And they know it.
If you split your quotes into man-hours and materials would that help? If you listed the prices of the main materials and then flexed the final price by the increased prices surely most customers would work with you? We are not there to put you out of business for aspects beyond your control. This is common practice in many service industries. Those that won't, let them go whistle
@@whitefields5595 i think a lot of it comes down to the banks (I'm in Australia). Most people are financing larger projects and the banks don't like it when quotes aren't fixed price.
But I'm working for wealthier people at the moment and everything is being done on cost plus contracts because they can make their own decisions.
If you have the money and a builder you trust then it's the way to go. I estimate everything and then they usually end up changing everything anyway, making the estimate irrelevant but it's low stress and they get what they want and i'm not trying to get it done as fast as possible, there's no temptation to cut corners or employ people who don't work to a high standard.
I document everything and keep the client in the loop with everything so they don't get nervous and it seems to work.
COVID and Brexit have had a big impact on materials. I could see that leaving would reduce foreign workers coming but most of my materials come from the EU. It needs to be addressed and soon. Jobs were easy to get before but now I'm winning less.
Most of my family are builders so I know exactly what you mean. They are all getting a little too old for this game and have well and truly stopped worrying about looking for work that does not really pay. £250 a day is not what it used to be, especially down south, building stuff is hard work and requires many skills and different types of equipment, which all need to be kept in working order, insured and transported to site. Both of my brothers-in-law long since decided only to work on their own projects and my own brother's wife recently died so he sold his large house and went into part-time retirement at only 58. He will do the odd job when he needs a bit of extra folding, but other than that prefers to do nothing, play video games, go fishing, or occasionally shag his new girlfriend when he can be bothered. To be honest he can't be bothered unless she starts beating him around the head for it. Who can be bothered at that age once you have been there more than a few dozen times? No one should feel obliged to work that hard either in bed or up a ladder once they get to that kind of age, never mind well into their 60s. Hard work is for the younguns, and I don't envy any of them.
"shag his new girlfriend when he can be bothered ' lol ffs top man, shake his hand for me.
Bit to much info to be telling a brother in law no? Sorry for your loss 😔
Fucking classic comment I'm in hysterics 😂😂
LOL... I know that feeling well!
250 a day NOT enough poor thing
I left the trade as an electrician 10 years ago. I loved the work and I had some pretty good clients. The local Spearmint Rhino being one of them 😅. But the stress of not knowing where my next pay check was coming from, clients accusing me of over pricing work when I was working for £75 a day on a weekend, the costs of NAPIT and the fear of the taxman breathing down my neck was just too much for me.
Geppetto's Workshop would make a fitting background for Rodger I think 😂.
I don't work on site anymore because the HSE have destroyed the industry. Going to work used to be a man's sanctuary, a respite from personal problems, but the HSE have made construction sites more like a prison than a place of work and I find them depressing places to work in now!
That's one of the reasons I quit site work. I found they were more interested in safety than quality tradesmen.
Same here ,I won't do any site work anymore , health and safety is ridiculous now!
Not just HSE it's also the claim culture forcing all the building companies to be OTT about safety as they know they'll get sued if any mishaps happen. e.g. my local council got sued by a street cleaner because he got sunburn and the council didnt provide him with any or madate that he wear it...
OMG, I went on a Tier 1 Kiers site 3 weeks ago, what an absolute joke. I walked after 7 days, told them I wasn't allowing them to invade my privacy and I'll happily leave if they weren't happy with that. I left anyway. I'm happy in a high pressure shopfitting scenario, not tossing off making sure my hi-viz and chin strap look good.
I’ve just quit the industry this year after forty five years, just had enough of all the stress of being a site manager and trying to make sure that everyone is doing what they’re supposed to be doing safely which is normally no. Mobile phones are a nightmare in the workplace for one example.
1 job at a time ,only me and the lad , stage payments upfront at agreed stages , extras paid for individually on completion and it’s worked for me for 25 years.
Good luck to all my comrades
Smart man.
I just had to put my company into liquidation. Two employees that took us for a ride, and two customers that refused to pay despite no problems with the work done. Small building companies are extremely vulnerable. Sad
I totally agree with everything. Am in this same boat, ive been a plumber and heating engineer for about 15 years and the trade has been good to be , but ive just had enough witj customers, and i have some fantastic customer . But the bad outweigh everything. The stress isn't worth it. Ive got about another 4 years am leaving the building game in my 40s and ill just go house bashing ajmd flip a house a year
I'm the same. It's just not worth it anymore.
Good luck to you featuring. No one appreciates us self employed people.
House flipping days are over.
@@bertibear1300Too right
Dont go house bashing, thats also a no no. The customer base is shrinking due to over all cost of the economy. Or if you go up market, you need water tight contracts, all the way.
Everything you do MUST be by contract (your terms!) Seek professional advice, its costly but the only way. Start with the premise of trust NO customer.
Flipping heck Roger, talk about hitting the nail on the head! Last financial year my accountant thought I was working a 2 day week, how about leaving the house at 4am, into the office, on site for 8, back in the office 5pm-9, and that 7 days a week for 20 weeks of the year. Who mentioned holidays! What are those. So, not surprisingly, I'm doing exactly what you've surmised, winding it down, not completely, but just sticking with a very restrictive set of repeat customer (who pay all the bills) and that's it. The occasional s/c gang to assist, but basically cutting right back. The life of a small, multi trade, builder. We are treated with such contempt that I won't touch domestic work anymore... so now about a third of my time is on health and safety, RAMS as we call it, but good job to - the customers appreciate it and nobody breaks a leg or gets killed! Strangely, this current year has been really enjoyable, I'm even helping my main customer out with a bit of unpaid additional work - working with a conscience - hahaa, just like the good old days! Great video, and apologies for my soap box comments!
Roger as always with his finger on the pulse. People trust nobody or nothing at the moment. It is pretty abysmal everywhere. Everybody is squeezed unless they got established before house prices went loopy in the mid 90's.
Building trade was always to my mind unstable employment with booms, busts, having to travel to new sites or if you stay local you are waiting on the phone to ring and hoping its not a messy job in someone's house.
People with big mortgages cannot afford to move, build extensions or update their houses either so even looking locally for work is difficult.
I think the way money keeps getting printed and devalued we are making things worse as the generations go by. My father is 75, left school at 12 to start working. He could afford to buy a home for his family and have my mother stay home. Find me a tradesman today that can do the same. It is an awful lot harder now.
There is allot of money out there but it is not in the average guys pocket, and most of it is on the never never.
The cyclical corporate building lunacy where quick profits have become the push over sane slower quality builds has led to ridiculous labour rates in the trades which collapse when supply exceeds demand. As the builders reign in production, material costs stripping out profit, trades will be released, supply increase, and labour rates collapse.
Anyone who has tracked this phenomenon enough has seen every cycle. I saw it first at the end of the eighties as house prices suddenly burst the bubble. And how the pathway to ownership is eased with shared equity to prop up the markets imminent collapse, the clarion marketing call telling the young, “Buy now or you’ll never get on the ladder”. It always collapses after this.
Greed dominates the building sector. Till that ends no one will benefit. Trades were promised the land of plenty but find a circle of despair. Unfortunately many ride the highs never saving for the lows. Until lifestyles end and life returns nothing will change. Regrettably women chase social status through displaying new this, new that, and they’re paying for it though him, new him if he fails. Men need to wake up and call a halt to this lunacy. Maybe normality and stability will emerge when they man up against the product marketing their women fall prey to.
@brynleytalbot778 That's one of the greatest series of comments I've read for a while. Barely a day goes by when I don't thank my father that he brought me up to see those errors you've described. I don't think I'd have made past 50 years old otherwise. Cabinetmaker 51 yrs old and still single...
Had enough, packed it in 4 weeks ago after about 40 years, far to many greedy customers wanting something for nothing, with ridiculous demands ,making all sorts of excuses not to pay or knock a large chunk off the bill. Materials are an absolute nightmare to source builders merchants promising to get materials just to get the order but then cant deliver on time, I have never been so stressed out and really used to enjoy going to work.
If there's one thing I've learned, its that's I'd rather pay more for a good tradeperson and get it done properly than pay less for shoddy workmanship. It's when you pay top rate for substandard work that riles me.
All the "good" tradespeople has been shafted so much over the years (by government, employers,management teams etc )that they have left. When was the last time your saw a apprentice trainee? Employers generally, use 'agencies' and bugger off to the golf course, so its no wonder you cant find good trades people. How do I know? I worked in the commercial world for 45years and saw it all. Imagine being the installer and supplier of seats for the Wembley Stadium and ending up bankrupt. Thats the reality
Good in theory , but in my experience with builders the very last thing you get is 'what you pay for' more often than not you get what you put up with.
The problem with DIY is refusing to permit yourself to accept a half ass job, being willing to pay for someone else to do a better job, but still ending up with the half ass result.
The benefit of DIY is you end up with some nice tools afterwards.
absaloutly love this bloke and series so true to life and realistic, deals with all the nitty gritty.
Worked my self into the ground this year with little profit. Trying to do small jobs to keep cash flow on big jobs going but end up rushing making a mess of both. Employees and labourers don't wanna turn up every day , no one wants to do it.
tools been robbed. Vans on the way out and nice 5k tax bill. Can't wait for January.
there's good money to be earnt but when it rains it pours.
30 years here a bricklayer and I'm out I'm now a London black cabbie, stick construction where the sun don't shine, what we take with us is a wealth of knowledge
been in trade nearly 50 years and with the money it costs to employ labour/ skilled trades men then plus high cost of materials it's just one big effort
plus as a employer I find employees want top money and do as little as possible for it 🤷🏼♂️ this makes it hard for contractors to make it work
Well said man
I am coming at this from the other point of View - as a new potential extension customer with plans in hand (who thinks he is within the 80% of good people that Roger identifies?) - trying to get quotes for an extension build. I really don't believe there are 20% of rogue builders around here... Its driving me nuts trying to find reliable, honest, hard working people. I just want honest people like Bricklaying with Steve and Alex to rock up and not try to rip my arm off and leave me and my family desolate and penniless after they leave a dumpsite. All I ever seem to find is cowboys of the likes that Gosforth handyman came across when he started his family home extension. So, what is a person to do - start a spreadsheet and start digging myself in spring and hope I encounter some good bricklayers around where we live in Cambridge. From my point of view, all I ever seem to find from building contractors are huge amounts of sub-contracting to who appear to be any random off the street and very little time on site putting the hours in themselves while they try to hook the next fish.
Have you tried the architect who did your plans for any contacts?
@@Speedy-mz4dn yeah, their builder put in a quote for single story at 200k for 45sqm single story which was a non starter.
I wouldn't take to much notice of Gosforth Handyman, he clearly didn't take due diligence when engaging the builders he used, the signs he was engaging a rogue were all there from the beginning, he just went with the cheapest price!😂
Whereabouts are you based?
Cambridge
One problem is the Afro of taking a customer to court. They have almost nothing to lose from holding onto the money and coming up with spurious reasons not to pay. The court system might take six months then the worst that can happen to the customer is pay the full invoice plus interest which is negligible, court costs which is a couple of hundred and loss of earnings to attend court which I believe is capped at £90 a day ! This really needs to change. Construction is one of the few areas in life where you generally pay after the service.
Sad times indeed! I personally try and advocate for young people to come into the trades but can’t help feel guilty knowing and having experienced a lot of what you say. Unfortunately both sides have slipped and both side share equal blame for the lack of trust. One of the best bits of advice I received was, when you go to price a job you are judging the customers at the same time. You don’t have to take ever job on, you can turn it down if you get a bad/off feeling from the customer.
I pulled out of the electrical business in the early 1990’s. I remember someone who ran his own business saying there’s never enough money in the business and he’d seen the decline 8n the 70’s, 80’s and @990’s when the firm eventually went bust.
The motto was “when there a decline the building industry are always first hit and when there’s an improvement in the economy they are always the last to see the benefit.
I’ve also seen real rogue traders and clients.
As a client ,I have been blessed to know some great builders ,plumbers ,sparkys etc,over the years . They looked after me and vice versa, I know they had to do other work because they had to deal with a cash flow and didn't want to go back on their word on costs and I appreciated that. Which is why I'd always give them first call and there workmanship was good ! And I would recommend them to friends and family. But most are retiring although some will do odd work for people like myself because of that respect we had for each other ! Good tradespeople are the salt of the Earth . Give him a respectful back drop !
" Good tradespeople are the salt of the Earth ". Never a truer word said but they're going the way of the dodo.
This was brilliant. Put a pub in the background! We used to there for dinner break back in the day! Agencies are a contributing factor to the industry’s decline
My builder works for a day rate. He estimates the time to complete the project and he's usually pretty close. I pay all the materials costs as we go along with the project. He puts an invoice in every Friday for his hours... and I pay him that weekend. Everyone's happy. He can take time off for family stuff and other commitments etc... and I don't care really because I only pay him for the time that he works. This whole 'lump sum lottery' ... I'm not into it.
This is a wonderful deal.
This is the way to do it. I never quote (Painter /Decorator) but estimate mostly so I can block out my diary. Client pays for all materials plus my day rate.
Almost the same system as Peru. Here it's a contract for the job, but excluding materials and consumables. Often they'll break down the job into smaller chunks, e.g. foundations, ground floor, first floor, etc, and quote and complete them one by one in turn. They "withdraw" part of the agreed money as an advance at the end of each week. Interesting that this possibility also exists in the UK.
I’m a design engineer for my day job, just finished a house build I started during lockdown periods so I’m familiar with building. Seems every ‘traditional’ manufacturing type is in decline. Even machine shops and fabrication shops are disappearing. Personally I think it’s the school curriculum that totally neglects hands skills and creative skills. Combine that with a youth that now have social media and gaming to keep themselves entertained rather than ‘creating’ its leading to a decline of making stuff.
I’m a plumber in blackpool can’t afford to work some days need more than 1-2 jobs or not worth going out … costs me .. glad you did this video was feeling pretty distressed , Christmas amplifies the problem ,luckily I’m on my own so no guilt from family going hungry
That call-out at the end gave me one hell of a shock 😂 Loving the channel. Keep up the great work!
It is honestly good to see the green screen used. You deserved a good call out.
I bet it did! Do you approve of the background?!
I'm a plumber and only do the small jobs which suits me, customers seem happy just to get someone to have a look. I charge an hourly rate. Personally when someone calls me I know straight away if I want to go round to do it, some blokes are telling me what I need to do on the phone, I normally tell them that they should do it themselves. I'm lucky where I've got in a position that I don't need to do it anymore.
Exactly the same with me. When people ring me and say they have an easy job that won't take me long they are actually saying I don't want to pay you very much to fix my problem. I do as you do - tell them if it's so simple and won't take long then do it yourself. They change their tune very quickly.
@@twobins2060 Spot on!
Exactly the same with me.
A carpenter of 20 years here, I’ve done a mix of site work and private over the years and absolutely hate the industry and the job in general!(I guess I’m at the resentment stage).
The money just isn’t worth the stress.
The people actually doing the work (tradesman) are paid less and less while the directors of the large housing companies are paid more and more.
This is bang on!! It's reassuring to know that it's not just me in this situation. How long to we push on for? I'm getting tired.
Great video Roger. Nailed the whole scenario. The bit that gets me is a recession, materials go up and labour comes down. In 2008 recession I was struggling to get jobs charging £80/day. Undercut by others doing it cheaper. I have a good reputation now and dont advertise. CITB, CIS and HMRC are the pain of my life.
If working for private clients make sure it's payment in tranches. Not payment on completion. Too many rogues who know it takes years for County Courts to sort things and it's difficult to rip out £600 worth of electrical components.
3 factors.are important, a good work ethic, reputation, pride in workstandards because you are only as good as your last job. As for customers it's when they ask 'can you just' and interfering with their superior knowledge that starts causing problems and further expenses. When the contract finishes trying to get them to pay for the extra work charges is like getting blood out of a stone.
Trust between both parties are lower now than they have ever been and one of the reasons why i left my trade after 25 years.
The trades has lost much needed experience and knowledge and why so many projects now over run in costs and time.
It's also going to get much worse in the years to come too when the last of us that learned from those old times retire from the building game.
I loved doing my trade and was good at it and was never without work, but people spoiled it with the unreasonable demands which were always at my expense.
I’ve been a gas engineer / plumber for 38 years , working self employed for a significant part of that time doing 6 days a week trying to keep customers happy and the money flowing in
Although you have your freedom to a certain extent being self employed it’s still bloody hard graft and it takes its toll eventually
I’m still in the trade but my back is knackered so I took a desk role with a company a few years ago and haven’t looked back since
I work from home mainly 8 till 4 , 37 hours , no weekends , good salary, good pension, paid holidays, paid sick leave , flexible working arrangements
I don’t really miss being on the tools and definitely don’t miss running around like a loony trying to get to jobs on time
Happy days
What sort of work did you manage to get in to? I’m in the same boat as you where at the moment as a self employed heating engineer
well done good choice
@@mattpym873 Hi, I have a job as a gas operational team leader , managing a team of gas engineers , all the usual supervisory and line management duties and tech support etc
I'm in the same boat. Being a builder is stressful and extremely high risk. I was literally just talking to my mate about starting a company just doing decks or something simple like that.
Yeah, a good way to go but remember always Money up front for all materals. If the customer dosent agree, walk away.
@@hughonabike it's a nice idea but it's literally illegal where I live. Max is 10% of contract price up front.
People nowadays demand instantaneous gratification. There is no delayed gratification nor willingness to wait. Similarly there is a rising tide of expectations. These expectations are wholly and mutually incompatible. Tag on, the seven dirty words that I loathe... "While you are here, can you just?" Sorta makes things... frustrating.
people expect far more than they did years ago, for instance i cant even remember the last time i did a laminate worktop, its all fancy quartz now for 4,5,6 10 times the price, no bog standard upvc french doors its all grey metal bifolds. the standards of what people expect for the money is just crazy im amazed how many people can afford to spend 50k on a kitchen
I've done 'while you are here' jobs that have been bigger than the main job!
Im 41 and been in the game since i was 18. I have to admit lately ive got to a point ive had enough. Finding it a really struggle to motive myself. Too many youtube customers who know it all..
I work in an entirely different industry, and yet the 20% of bad customers are also there, and I know there are 20% of bad contractors too. It seems a pity that what we have become are humans without shame. A friend of mine runs an air b and b, with a 100% impeccable record, and yet one bad customer came with criminal intent and forced my friend to offer them their money back after only two days. They refused the offer and said they would “stick it out”….they complained of things that weren’t there….mosquitoes, bed bugs, mould dirty sheets etc…….just shocking …have they no shame?
Most of the issue has been having to compete with cheap labour coming from abroad for many in my area.
James is a loss to the building trade I watched all these work on RUclips I liked everything he did I work for builders who cut their corners all the time it would have been a pleasure to work with him
James seems like a nice guy almost the guys Roger has on are good guys though. I've learnt a lot from Dan especially will have to thank him some day
Stage payments are such a valuable tool, no money up front, on work, it never failed for me.😎🇬🇧
Thats the best way, A very strong contract, stage payments, ALL subcontractors must come through you ((part of the contract) all set up with professional help. One word of warning, you cannot go back onto a customers site, to pick up your possessions without your customers permission-thats trespass. That why you need professional help
I had staged payments for my project but we got to a point where the builder has moved on to another project about 75% complete (or 75% of the money handed over at least). The staged payments loosly included the tasks that would be completed by whkn. We are in a situation where some of the works that we thing had been paid for are not complete but some elements that were part of future stage payments had been started. We have no idea if we can complete what we need to in the funds left or if we got fair value for the work that has been done. This is a big project for us north of £300k. The general work done by our builder was good but we had specified and expected high levels of insulation and finish. Having seen the quality of work by Roger and Robin Clevitt we knew what we hoped for but it felt a long way from what we had delivered. I do feel for the building trade and understand some of the challenges raised in this video but I think that the building industry needs to do a lot to improve the quality of what is delivered.
Interesting to hear this from the building side more. Our carpenter asked us to pay day rate and materials a while ago and as we knew he was a hard worker it was fine. Ditto for the painter, where it's worked out brilliantly because we've been able to add bits of work that were not planned without complexity.
Not sure I'd do it for a big project though, not unless I knew them very well
My Brother was a QS for massive firm. He was told by his chairman to price a job less than cost to ensure they got it. He told him not to worry because they would just knock the subbies. It would never get to court because the subbies would be soon bankrupt.
Had enough. 45 years as a bricky and I'm out.
I was going to mention the whole practice of knocking the subbies. One for the future
I've seen it where contractors on commercial jobs price low to win the work then hit the client with variations for the most trivial things. Only works for the first few jobs though.
This happened to a sparky friend of mine. Took so long to get to court he'd gone out of business.
Many years ago, companies used to have a agreement whereby contracts would be given out by the "lowest" price. They arranged between themselves who would be the lowest price this time. It worked very well for everybody. The the government stepped in and broke it up-so now everybody is at every others throats. Thats the base of all we have now. GREED AND MONEY
A big building firm tried this on us once. Luckily I had the foresight to hire a contract arbitrator and not a solicitor to deal with it because I could see where it was going. He had a multimillion pound firm wrapped up in a bankruptcy petition within a couple of weeks with no option other than to pay us or be liquidated. You just need the right advice.
The construction industry is facing significant challenges & in my opinion is broken, with clients often assuming the role of makeshift project managers. This situation leads to confusion and complications, as clients direct subcontractors to carry out additional tasks behind the primary contractor's back. Consequently, unexpected work is completed without proper authorization or discussion about payment, resulting in disputes when the client refuses to cover the cost of these extra tasks. My last two clients have turned on us just as the projects coming to a close. Bloody nightmare and very costly.
I see a lot of builders misdescribing the ordering of material as “project management”. This then gets billed for as an added expense 😂
It is no more difficult or time consuming, than writing out your weekly shopping list. Is that managing the kitchen stock project?
There are indeed significant challenges in the industry and none more so than the greed and sheer dishonesty within it.
Endured that with one customer about 10 yrs ago. I spent a lot of time with her and gave her a lot of good advice. She then ignored all of what I'd said, tried to manage a fairly large restoration job and made a pigs ear of it. I took payment in stages and didn't get stung too badly but the main contractor got hit hard. A lot of paranoia on both sides.
I am now retired but regularly use a small builder who quotes me for the labour only. Any materials used either I purchase directly or pay them on production of merchants receipts. This way I know I am not being ripped off on cost of materials and there is no risk to the builder in any rises of material costs.
Talking to electricians on sites I’m always shocked to hear that the reason they managed to get a trade is because their father or uncle etc was in the trade. It is difficult for others to break the barrier. An up and coming electrician needs to go to college. After collage he needs to find a firm that will further train him. It’s easy if your father is in the trade not, if he’s not. It’s a little like a union closed shop. You have to be in the family/union to get a job. No contacts no job, no training, no time to study.
Big companies taking the mickey out of subbies but paying them sub-par rates is my biggest problem. Too many cowboys and having to unfu@k their bodge before starting my job. The "DIY" customer who has watched a few videos, cocked it up, then complains when you charge your rate because "its only an hours work." This list goes on.
I must be a good guy. My extensions and other work I have always paid for the materials as and when they were needed. Secondly because I was "on site" and could see problems as they arose I was sympathetic to labour/time increses as well. I have, therefore, got a circle of good brickies, plasterers, plumbers and electricians.
I'm not a builder, i'm a wall/floor tiler and wished i jumped ship years ago. Always, always chasing money to the point i have to beg for it. And dealing with people has become ever harder, they always want cheaper, they question my knowledge and my pricing because they looked 'on the internet' the and where i live it seems tilers are two a penny. For years work was steady, i was happy with my income, it paid the bills but the past 3 or 4 years, like many have been difficult. Not jealous of what anyone else earns but have a mate who works in recruitment, works from home in his pyjamas, turns his laptop off at 4.30, no overheads and pulls in 65k a year. Sick of it.
Too much nonsense from all quarters is becoming prevalent in construction now. This video is 100% relatable to me, especially the customers trying to knock money off all the time. In the past year I’ve pulled off 2 jobs due to customer behaviour and turned down at least three because the customers tried to shift the goalposts after prices and schedules were agreed. Sometimes I despair in human nature. No wonder so many people are leaving to make an easier living elsewhere. People complain because they can’t get a plumber or electrician or builder, but quite often these same people are part of the reason nobody can get trades when they start playing silly buggers with the ones working for them. Most decent customers don’t harass you once work is agreed I find.
The worst customers are the ones who negotiate after the job is done. I end up giving them a moral lecture for 30 mins every time. If they don't pay then we have a meet and greet.
On larger projects they need to manage risk… of course prices will go up, schedules will slip… the trick is… to be forewarned is to be forearmed. Managing expectations with the client and being transparent is key to happy clients. The lesson perhaps for builders is to be upfront about risks, tell them this is the cost and schedule, but here are the risks as well… AND… what you can do to mitigate those risks. Regularly discuss those risks and progress and the delivery logic, and clients won’t feel like they are being fleeced in the face of bonafide price increases and delays. Perhaps go as far as including a risk budget on top of your estimate.
I agree with you 👍
I've been self employed since 1980 and sadly there are rogue builders out there that will use labourers to do tradesmans work. I've also had too many rouge customers that didn't intend to pay in the first place. I've also had a lot of bad experiences working for the "SS"
(Snide Surveyor's) some surveyors are devious and underhand, surveyors will take the meat out of your sandwich while you are eating it. (These are the very people that should be setting a good example) They all seem to know the same dirty tricks.
A good customer is one who understands price & effort fluctuations, unfortunately they are uncommon. I got out a while back but before, I had started stripping the material costs away from the labour & get the customer to pay the list of materials ordered then I would pick up for them. A quick call with a credit card by the customer & presto. The customer keeps the receipts, I don't have to bother with declaring them as costs on my accounts. But best of all, not only does it provide transparency, the leftover materials are an issue for the customer so I would happily take them away for free & if there was a lot tgey could be returned to the merchant & the customer gets the refund...
Some of those problems can be solved by good communication and clear written agreements. For instance, if materials prices go up, just show the customer the invoice. Explain what goes into your quote and where the uncertainties are, and agree a strategy for dealing with unforeseens eg. agree a day rate to do extra work not foreseen in the quote. Most people are reasonable enought to accept some uncertainty IF you explain it clearly to them, and can demonstrate that you're not ripping them off.
Good builders. The really good ones are gold dust and should not be afraid to CHARGE. I was given a hefty quote for my roof but was happy to pay the high price because I knew the roofer had a good reputation. You get what you pay for so my advice to good quality hard working, salt of the earth builders out there is don't be afraid to give quotes that are on the generous side because honest customers will pay if they know the builder is a good and quality one. We should have good builders working for good people. If you are a builder and you put in a generous quote and the customer tries to drive down your quote - walk away and don't be afraid to do so. It's a sign that your customer is going to be a problem.
Sounds so much like my 40years in the building industry, these days it’s all materials paid for prior to delivery, any increase in costs is paid for by the customer, all wages paid every week on time or the job stops and I pull off, all extra work is paid and agreed in advance, i don’t give credit and I’m not a bank so don’t ask .
Trust A Trader needs Trust A Customer. Need a public registry of people who play fairly and those that don't. A quick lookup and we all know where we stand.
We could put politicians on there too :-))
As to the politicians, waste of time, there wouldn't be any there!!
@@johnchristmas7522 Exactly.
I am not in the trade, but I do most of my own DIY jobs because I struggle to find a builder I trust, also because of so many good RUclipsrs showing how things should be done then the builder you've hired doesn't do it the same way, sometime I wish I was more ignorant, as ignorant is bliss.
Also the government backed certification is not worth the paper it written on, I had external wall insulation out on my old house and it was a nightmare from start to finish and was government backed.
I started using checkatrade and rated people, which improves things somewhat, but I still feel the standards are not as great as they could be. Builders are always in a rush to finish the job even if I tell that at the start, I want the job done properly rather than speed.
It is a dilemma and a sad state of affairs. I would love to know what the solution is.
There’s more than one way to do many things if you was in the trade you would understand, you tube short and TikTok builders are the worst you should be watching then trying to tell people how to do their job, I can see this being why you can’t find a builder. You need to get one recommended not from some company trying to profit , most of us that don’t need to advertise wouldn’t dream of being on those apps it’s like building equivalent of a just eat company
Indeed I'd rather do any job myself. Just I'm often left in the dilemma where I can't legally do a job because I have to be "certified and up to date".
For instance installing an EV charge point. Not difficult, can know the rules and regs, but unless I'm a registered electrician I can't do it. Then you see cowboy registered electricians do a bodge job and "illegally" have to fix it to make it compliant.🤦♂️
@stephenfanthorpe2708 I always try to get recommendations, how ever a a deaf person that's uses sign language to communicate and living far away from family, it is not easy to get recommendations.
As a hobbyist woodworker I know there are hundred of ways to do the same thing, however somethings I see people do are just something to be done quick enough so they can move on to the next job.
I am careful who I follow on RUclips. I look for people who are usually in the trade.
💯
Totally agree with you, we all have different ways of getting a job done , there's some good content on RUclips but also a lot of garbage
Damn! Well done. Say it how it is Roger. As a sole practicing local architect for 30 years, I fully agree with you.
So many issues to discuss here though.
There’s to many rouge traders out there too. Undercutting the real workers. And with prices going up customers are obv gonna go with cheaper prices. Problem is these rouge traders are making more money than us.
If your customer is more concerned about price over value - or can't understand the difference between the two - you've already got the wrong type of customer. So let them go with the cheapest. They will call you back when they want it redone correctly. sounds harsh, I promise you it nearly always pans out that way.
I packed it in for the same reasons. So nice when you start the job and as soon as you talk money after the job they change.
It's a funny old game, I really enjoy my work, but it would be so much easier without customers 👍
Exactly 😂. I need to find a way to make money without customers, employees and suppliers.
As a property developer who also works for clients, this video summed it up perfectly
Property Development makes around £500-1000 PER DAY when you’re on the tools yourself, compared to £150-200/day doing far more stressful work for clients
I hate working in other peoples houses, genuinely hate it. Trashing your knees and back for average wages, fuck that
In my case I went back into the electrical trade in my late 50s working for a local electrical contractor just to nudge myself nearer to the state pension and lasted 4 years before chucking it in.
Luckily I had things in life sorted moneywise so the wage didn't need to be fantastic but as it turned out JIB gold card or not I would be running a small job, couple of sparks and apprentices for the grand totall of £90 per week more than the older 19 year old apprentice.
It's not neccessarily the kids fault but most of them have no experience of pyro, metal conduit, SWA over 25mm2 or cell pack joints on over 6.00mm2 armoured, as an old duffer I was expected to teach this for free, test installations and complete the job on time for less money than an evening shift picker in a local Sainsburys warehouse.
It was easy to jack but my kids will just have to inherit a bit less I guess?