@@joannabaparileszczynskaand he had cheese in his pocket, so he came back home to something. Someone killed his sister, then waited for him and guaranteed, given he was burned while alive, it is a person who was after him.
I have been listening to a podcast on the wireless about this murder, the brother and sister were regular chapel goers, very God fearing (as people use to say), because of the results of the investigation, the brother and sister were denied a funeral service in the chapel, they were taken straight up to the burial plot, the chapel they had attended all their lives turned their back on them!, and these churches, chapels etc call themselves 'religious', they are the biggest hypocrites going these chapels and churches etc, have no love or compassion in their hearts at all, just self righteous, gossipy, so called do gooders, i hope the brothers name will be cleared, disgraceful, keep fighting for the truth.
Gruesome. Doesn’t sound like a murder-suicide. Admirable the police interviewed a large amount of people but they messed up by their determination of the cause of deaths. The cash box being empty points to a robbery and a double murder. The killer didn’t find the other money stashed. What was used to burn a man to death? The fire only affected where he was sitting and not the entire house. Thank you DC for your episodes. The narrator has the best speaking voice on RUclips. With respect from California. 💫
My analysis of this is that Patti had unexpectedly received a guest by herself while Griff was out, hence the cups of tea and the food. You wouldn't make cups of tea for people who weren't there. For whatever reason, that turns violent and she is murdered. Griff then comes home and is attacked in the kitchen, hence why he was still wearing his coat and had the cheese in his pocket. The reason the dog didn't freak out (and appears to have been led away) is because it knew the attacker - which means Patti and Griff did as well. I assume the police followed up with the shopkeeper to try and identify when Griff bought the cheese, which may narrow down the time of the attack. An alternative theory is that Griff went to buy the cheese because he knew that person was coming or was already there. They had laid out bread so cheese would make sense. John Cooper also gets the blame for every unsolved murder in Wales, just like Steve Wright and Christopher Halliwell in England. I think that's probably a blind alley and the truth is likely a lot closer to home.
To be fair, with the John Cooper angle we're not just talking about 'Wales', but a very specific corner of Wales (Pembrokeshire). And the murder took place in December, when there would be very few transient visitors to the area.
@@horrortackleharry Yes. No evidence, but strong resonances with his other crimes. His casual labouring/fencing work took him all over rural Pembrokeshire (and other parts of South Wales) so he would have known a lot of the farms and farmers, the lanes, fields and footpaths, and been able to identify vulnerable targets. He was himself something of a ‘transient’, but probably known enough/with work credentials, not to have been regarded as a suspicious stranger. I wonder if he was within the hundreds questioned, or whether his base at the time was further away and he hadn’t been in the immediate area for a while so was never on the police radar.
@@halfbakedproductions7887 I don’t think that sweeping statement has much validity. There are 2 unsolved farm murders in South Wales that have resonances with his other crimes, and he was criminally active over a long period, and in the general areas of those two. He’s not linked to ‘every unsolved murder in Wales’ as far as I’m aware. Regarding Griff and Patti we don’t know, but I strongly doubt it was a murder-suicide.
I don't believe it was a murder suicide. Someone who knew both Griff and Patti killed them. The killer also knew Griff and Patti's dog too because the dog let that person be on their property without chasing that person away. So that tells me the dog knew the killer.🤔
@sandypaw. The dog was a sheepdog, not a guard dog. It wouldn’t just attack a stranger on arrival. The dog might have been left/shut outside during the attack activity. A person, known or unknown, could have been visiting about work. Just one potential scenario: the Cooper mentioned did fencing work, and travelled widely for that work. Someone like that could have been enquiring about, or even already verbally contracted to do, a physical job that Griff with his rheumatoid arthritis couldn’t do. What more natural than that Patti would offer refreshment until Griff came in. All sorts of scenarios are then possible. Ultimately, while a loyal sheepdog is more likely to stick around after an incident resulting in the death of its owner, and while there’s a tiny chance it ran off to raise alarm, it’s most likely it ran off if spooked by the smell of fire. The perpetrator could have left on foot across fields. Interestingly that’s what Cooper did in the other farm murder; didn’t use a vehicle near the property.
The fact that she'd laid on some refreshments also suggests that she knew the killer, either they dropped round unexpectedly and were invited in, or their visit was planned. Griff probably went out to get the cheese to eat alongside the bread. The dog knew the killer and likely left with them, or was simply taken because it didn't put up any resistance.
Animals are often witnesses who obviously can't be questioned but know the smell of the killer, this wasn't a murder/suicide, needs to be re-evaluated.
It´s possible that the killer walked with one or both of them onto the property, and the dog assumed it was alright. He wouldn´t have had to have "known them", perhaps the killer asked if he could use the phone if he had met with Griff as the older manwas walking home from the shops, or seen Patti from the road in the garden. If he had convinced them to escort them onto the property, the dog most likely wouldn´t have protested too much, poor boy.
There is no evidence whatsoever that supports any kind of motive for him to even want to do so. He's found in the kitchen, wearing his coat and with some newly purchased cheese in the pocket. Clearly he was ambushed and attacked there by someone else.
Thank you to all who researched this case. With the information presented this doesn't track as a murder/suicide. Griff being older and having rheumatoid arthritis prevents being able to lift a chair and use it as a weapon, I've known people who suffered from it and it's difficult at best to do that kind of lifting. There is no motive here except for the lady wanting the land stated toward the end. That's a lot of fingerprints and the police didn't do a good job, especially on the footprints leading away in the snow. Sounds like Malloy just wanted to close the case as soon as possible but with forensics and genealogy now the whole case may be approached differently. thanks DC.
Indeed. The theory that he burned himself to death makes no sense. The fight or flight response would have kicked in, and given there was no mention of drugs in his system to suppress that response, the theory falls flat.
There's no way in all the universe that this wasn't a double homicide. Something is fishier than a seaside market. Who's hiding what, and who's helping them?
I do not think he killed his sister I doubt it will ever be solved either it's just tragic thank you DC another interesting video well done as usual 👏👏👏👏💕
Sheer incompetence by police with blinkered viewpoints. How, with bloody fingerprints and Footsteps at scene, was it a murder-suicide? Who, even, sets themselves on fire? Ridiculous!
Awww! How tragic and how unfair that this poor man was brutally murdered and then was blamed for murdering his own sister.😢 Who just goes and buys a block of cheese at the store and when they get home decides they are going to brutally murder their sibling?!😳Everything about this case points to someone else doing this not this poor arthritic elderly man who obviously wasn’t physically capable and was known to be close to his sister. Did the police investigate anything or do their jobs at all back in the 70’s cause this is one of many from the 70’s where you look at the case and think it had to be just plain laziness on these police departments part at that time cause it obviously doesn’t appear that it was investigated properly.🤦♀️ R.I.P. Griff & Patty 🙏🏻❤️🙏🏻❤️
Why would Griff kill his sister or how could he have possibly been physically able to? Patti and Griff lived together for 70 years which you can only conclude the tremendous devotion and love between the two. The shame and injustice of this preposterous conclusion for fifty one years 50 years of blatant incompetence and a grave travesty to both Patti and Griff.
My adopted Grandpa and "Mom" both had R.A. It got so bad for my "Grandpa" he could barely move, was in constant pain which made him a evil mean person. He ended up lighting the house on fire and eating a bullet. My "Mom" had to have her hands, fingers, wrist, feet, and neck fused. At one time she couldn't even lift a pop can to drink it, one because she didn't have the strength and two because her fingers were so crooked and went in all directions she was not capable of having a grip to even drink. No way in hell he killed his sister. He literally wouldn't have the strength to do so and probably didn't have the capability to grip anything.
thanks for sharing this -id not heard of it before! the case is really terrible and really deserved more investigation. i too think that its incredibly bad policing to conclude he killed his sister and himself. he was found bashed in the head, covered in partially burned cushions - obviously the killer wanted to burn the house down but unfortunately the fire didn't take. honestly shocking. they deserve justice.
Sounds like Malloy was prejudiced from the start and tried to match the evidence to fit his narrative, even though it completely contradicts the theory. Hopefully the Police will reopen this case and give a fresh and thorough new investigation.
If there was ever a case of police incompetence, prejudice and, perhaps, deliberate obfuscation, this is it. For one, a man of over 70 years of age, suffering from arthritis having the strength to bludgeon his sister to death with a heavy (presumably) wooden chair is ludicrous. And what of the blood on the sewing machine that was covered? The sheer ineptitude displayed by the police is appalling.
There was definitely a 3rd party involved I believe. First of all, like the video stated, these siblings were close during their entire lives and basically did everything together (they obviously loved one another very much, as siblings usually do). Unless I missed something, if it was a murder-suicide, why would the brother (after murdering his beloved sister) smash his head in with a sewing machine and then, after coming to or if he didn't fall unconscious from that, light himself on fire or light the house on fire for him to die in it? Just doesn't make any sense to me. No, there's obviously a big piece of this puzzle missing and I pray the police will reopen the case and find that missing piece soon! RIP to this beautiful brother and sister. ❤
This is strange - a more or less disabled man who can barely lift a hay bale picks up a chair, beats his sister to death with it and carries it into another room? There, having somehow injured his head badly enough to shed liberal amounts of blood, he carefully puts the cover on her sewing machine, before setting fire to himself. This is very ununsual. Then a few years later you have a serial killer working the area, with a liking for murdering mature couples. The walkers case I remember, the police getting an idee fix that the IRA were to blame, and ignoring the killer's using their credit card over 100 miles away. Added to that, the South Wales police around this time got a bad reputation for solving murders by framing innocents......
So Griff beat himself about the head, then placed cushions on the floor, set them on fire and then climbed into the middle of the fire? Easier ways to go.
Random crimes with no motive are rare, but do exist. In 1967 a guy named Victor Hoffman, who had just been released from a mental hospital, entered his neighbors' farm armed with a rifle and proceeded to shoot the whole family, including seven children. He had nothing against them, no real reason to kill them except the fact he had schizophrenia. Sometimes the explanation really is "some random guy entered the house and killed them".
Do the words “you have to be shitting me” come to mind when you heard this?? Anyone?? I had to listen to it twice unbelievable!! Set himself on fire?!?! I’m appalled.😮😡
Someone in that police force knows. I really don’t think people set themselves on fire as a first choice for suicide. He must have had a gun on that farm, no?
Sounds like a robbery by someone who knew them even though money was found elsewhere in the house. Their 'guest ' visited and Patti asked Griff to go to the shop to buy the cheese to go with the bread.. while he was gone, the guest murdered Patti then ambushed Griff on his return. I don't think Griff was physically capable of such a violent crime and how was it possible to inflict such injuries on himself, never mind set fire to himself with a circle of cushions surrounding him? The unidentified thumb prints could surely be a clue that another person was involved. What a terrible crime. So sad the conclusion was deemed a murder suicide, it just doesn't seem to be the case.
Very interesting case, strange an elderly man could lift a oak chair up to bash his sisters head in. Two siblings living together for so long without any fighting seems strange he would all of a sudden kill his sister. This story is so sad, Maybe someone killed them to rob them ,found some money &left.
It’s not about people’s opinion on their relationship, it’s the fact that Griff physically could not have replaced the cover of the sewing machine after bludgeoning himself with it. That makes no sense. Another person had to do that. The way it was described, it sounded like someone picked up the sewing machine to deliver a final blow to Griff, after Patti was already deceased in the chair and Griff was laying on the floor after being attacked. If the cover was on, sure some blood spatter might get onto the actual machine from the force of the blow, but not a significant amount of blood; that makes it obvious the cover wasn’t on when the perpetrator picked it up to use as a tool, and was put back on after they set the machine back down in its spot.
As a Care Manager in rural Powys I once had to talk to the Dyfed Powys Police Firearms Officer. (I had an issue with a client’s farming son not locking shotgun away, as required by law, after use shooting rabbits, PLUS a client with dementia threatening to shoot people). One fact I learned was that there were about 40,000 people with firearms licences across Dyfed Powys, the vast majority farmers, and every farmer would probably have one. I would want to know if Griff owned a gun. If he did, there’s no way he would have committed suicide in the manner reported here. (Even if he murdered Patty in a frenzied attack, which I doubt).
Why would he hold onto cheese, while killing himself? And where did the dog go? So very sad and tragic end for folks who harmed no one. I pray they rest in peace together.
It just seems when there are no easy or obvious answers, the man is always made out to be the perpetrator. I didn’t hear any evidence supporting the idea he did it. And those that knew him vouch for his character. Also, I can’t imagine anyone killing themselves by fire. There would have been far less horrific and painless ways to go.
I don't believe it was a murder suicide. Griff didn't kill his sister. The person who killed them knew them well, He knew that they kept substantial amount of money, he killed them and took the money. The dog didn't bark bcoz he knew the killer, he was a regular visitor to the farm. Griff is innocent they were both murdered. They deserve to get Justice. Rip Griff and Pattie.
This is a very complicated case as well as mind boggling, definitely doesn't sound like a murder suicide. Hoping they catch the killer. Thanks for sharing. 👍👍 DNA analysis will probably help the police.
I don't usually comment on the cases that I listen to, but this is an exception. Although it is certainly a double homicide and not a murder-suicide, and I do hope that the case is revisited- I am comforted by the community the Thomas siblings were a part of. They held a vigil not only for Patti, but for Griff as well. Which speaks volumes about their certainty in Griff's integrity and character. May they both rest in peace, may justice be done for both of them.
I have RA. There's no way he lifted a heavy chair over his head. RA causes your hands, elbows and shoulders to be extremely swollen and sore. It wouldn't have been possible. Especially with his left hand being so severely effected. You literally can't grasp due to pain and swelling. It would be like trying to swing a chair with a sprained wrist.
I heard on a recent podcast that the brother and sister were buried with a sheet of metal between each coffin, a resident remembers their father mentioning this after returning from the funeral, what was the reason for this? Does anyone know? those involved in investigating the murders and the minister who wouldn't allow the brother and sister's coffins into the chapel for a funeral service should be ashamed of themselves, why were the ladies in the village not allowed to attend the funeral, again does anyone know?
Well done to the narrator for concentrating on getting Llangolman pronounced quite well. But ... the first vowel in both "Dyfed" and "ffynon" is as in "up", not "him". Also, Clebran is not a place, but the name of a local monthly magazine, meaning "gossip" in the local dialect.
Unless there is definitive evidence to support someones guilt, no conclusion should be drawn and the case should be remain open and re-examed until solved properly.
It wasn't a murder suicide. If he was going to commit suicide he would have done it a different way. And he definitely didn't kill his sister. I don't like lazy police work.
It’s beyond hilarious suggesting this 70s man orchestrated such a bloody and impossible suicide pact, the logistics just don’t add up and how the police got away with suggesting such a thing just baffles the mind The money they had was certainly substantial for back then and the dog disappearing definitely a third party involved and very sad for these siblings that nothing was done
Whenever I hear of a case like this one, where the verdict is so ridiculously wrong, my first and only thought is that the police knew who did it, and are covering it up.
@03:47 that looks like a military fire engine, maybe RAF as it has the water canon on the top. I was wondering if this was during the fire service strike, but that wouldn't happen for another 12 months or so after this crime. In the 1970's when the fire service went on strike the military provided the fire service using cold ware era fire engines. The military fire engines were olive drab, and were affectionately know as the green goddesses.
How the hell was he supposed to have beaten himself to death with a sewing machine, set himself on fire, and replaced the cover of the machine? Do the cops think Griff was an octopus or something? It's physically impossible, especially considering his age and arthritis. The ruling is absurd.
I wonder …. Could an unprecedented rift have occurred between brother and sister because she wanted to sell up and move (likely to somewhere easier to manage) , and he didn’t? Something they hadn’t aired to others. That sort of threatened disturbance to an ingrained way of life might cause the sort of row in which someone unstable or unused to being crossed might snap. This would give a bit of contextual understanding for such an event. However, it neither seems likely that such a row would so escalate as Griff returned from shopping, still with his coat on, nor explain the bizarre manner of the alleged suicide. [You can tell by my many very varied comments that I’m intrigued by this case. All is speculation. That’s inevitable when questions remain.]
I just can't imagine a more horrific fate than being brutally beaten and then burned to death while still alive, and then being blamed for somehow doing this yourself....while also blamed for the brutally beating your sister to death. This was the conclusion that would make things easier for the investigators and I can't see any other reason why they came to it.
I’ve been scratching my head trying to think of a scenario in which Griff murders Patti, reacting to the comments about them being gentle people living a gentle life together. Sibling murders do happen. The only thing I can come up with is if Griff had advanced dementia or a severe mental health delusional disorder, hidden from others by their isolated life, and somehow he didn’t recognise Patti when he came in, mistaking her for an intruder. But, nah …. It doesn’t fit at all. There hasn’t been ANY suggestion or evidence about such a mental state and even if he was basically physically fit, his RA (even if mild) would have diminished his hand grip and strength so I doubt he’d be capable of the severe bashing that was delivered to Patti. Add to that the fact that his own head was injured and he was burned in the chair too …. The suicide-murder conclusion seems bizarre. The evidence for 3rd party involvement isn’t strong, but is circumstantially at least as strong as the murder-suicide conclusion. I do hope this case will be re-investigated for potential use of modern forensic techniques.
Meant to include: but Griff doesn’t seem to have been totally socially isolated from the community - still shopping, and I presume driving … Doesn’t seem to suggest cognitive disorder …..
Trying to say that someone wouldn't be capable of violence because they have deeply religious views is laughable. That said though i can't see a 73 year old with arthritis being able to swing a chair like that
Would you consider doing a case from my hone town of Worcester? David McGreavy. He brutally murdered 3 young children he was babysitting, then impaled their heads in the town. He's possibly recently been released. There was also another murder in the same house 100 years before that!
David Bowie didn't have different colored eyes, he had what is called a keyhole pupil because the pupil is shaped so much like the old door keyholes in older homes. Plus you can see it if you pay the least bit of attention.
Murder-suicide? So Griff bashed himself in the head, put the object back, arranged cushions on the kitchen floor, laid down, and set himself and the cushions on fire? That’s the most absurd story I’ve heard in a long time. More likely the attacker surprised Patti with the suddenness of the attack, the violence of which also overturned the tv, then Griff came home and caught the person in the process of searching for money to take. They attacked him too, then in a panic from unexpectedly having to kill a second person and maybe even concerned that more people might come, they threw him on some cushions and set both on fire with the intention of burning the whole house and hiding the evidence. The fire went out but they needn’t have worried anyway because apparently the authorities just decided to start making things up.
I don't think for a second that Griff killed his sister, and I imagine both of them would be gutted to find out that was the conclusion the police came to, after they'd spent 70+ peaceful years living together.
@TheVintageFoxyLady I live in a tiny part of a tiny country where hardly anything happens, I’m just surprised the case is on dark curiosities radar as this case isn’t well known that’s all
I think the police were up against it. All they had was fingerprints, which prove nothing except that at some time the person touched an object. just the sheer amount of time that it would have taken to track down and interview all of these people. I think it should be re examined though, they probably developed tunnel vision.
As far as the Police where concerned it was easier to say that the brother murdered the sister so the case could be said to be solved. It costs money to re open a case so I do think that very little effort will be applied to this case by the Police.
So, no evidence of them having arguments or his having a violent temper. Yet suddenly he snaps and kills his sister? Yeah, right. Did anyone look at Pat Malloy for this? He seemed to immediately say it was a suicide murder and then not done any more investigating
This is someone with experience that did this.the sister’s body being positioned sitting up and with the TV on is definitely staged.it’s something that didn’t need to be done.it’s like a signature that serial killers do.
I think we all agree, he didnt kill his sister or himself
Yes. Griff is innocent.
I don't
@@tammygarrett3495 evidence,?
No, at least I don't.
they only thing i agree with is that monk peen is the best
Didn't the brother have a terrible head injury too? How did he do that to himself? Questions
Yeah, there was blood on the sewing machine. Did he hit himself with it and then set himself on fire? Ridiculous
@@joannabaparileszczynskaand he had cheese in his pocket, so he came back home to something. Someone killed his sister, then waited for him and guaranteed, given he was burned while alive, it is a person who was after him.
I have been listening to a podcast on the wireless about this murder, the brother and sister were regular chapel goers, very God fearing (as people use to say), because of the results of the investigation, the brother and sister were denied a funeral service in the chapel, they were taken straight up to the burial plot, the chapel they had attended all their lives turned their back on them!, and these churches, chapels etc call themselves 'religious', they are the biggest hypocrites going these chapels and churches etc, have no love or compassion in their hearts at all, just self righteous, gossipy, so called do gooders, i hope the brothers name will be cleared, disgraceful, keep fighting for the truth.
So Griff supposedly bashed himself around the head with a sewing machine, replaced the cover over it, then set fire to himself?? NAHHHH!
All while suffering from rheumatoid arthritis...
Some people are so clever! 😂
You say that like you have never watched Warner Brothers cartoons. 😂
Gruesome. Doesn’t sound like a murder-suicide. Admirable the police interviewed a large amount of people but they messed up by their determination of the cause of deaths. The cash box being empty points to a robbery and a double murder. The killer didn’t find the other money stashed. What was used to burn a man to death? The fire only affected where he was sitting and not the entire house. Thank you DC for your episodes. The narrator has the best speaking voice on RUclips.
With respect from California. 💫
Do note that they only interviewed a lot of people when people scoffed at their murder suicide scenario.
This is so tragic. The ruling was just ridiculous in my opinion
It was, and the townspeople shouldn’t have settled for such negligence.
My analysis of this is that Patti had unexpectedly received a guest by herself while Griff was out, hence the cups of tea and the food. You wouldn't make cups of tea for people who weren't there.
For whatever reason, that turns violent and she is murdered. Griff then comes home and is attacked in the kitchen, hence why he was still wearing his coat and had the cheese in his pocket. The reason the dog didn't freak out (and appears to have been led away) is because it knew the attacker - which means Patti and Griff did as well. I assume the police followed up with the shopkeeper to try and identify when Griff bought the cheese, which may narrow down the time of the attack.
An alternative theory is that Griff went to buy the cheese because he knew that person was coming or was already there. They had laid out bread so cheese would make sense.
John Cooper also gets the blame for every unsolved murder in Wales, just like Steve Wright and Christopher Halliwell in England. I think that's probably a blind alley and the truth is likely a lot closer to home.
I must say that your hypothesis is sound and well considered.
To be fair, with the John Cooper angle we're not just talking about 'Wales', but a very specific corner of Wales (Pembrokeshire). And the murder took place in December, when there would be very few transient visitors to the area.
@@horrortackleharry I agree.
@@horrortackleharry Yes. No evidence, but strong resonances with his other crimes. His casual labouring/fencing work took him all over rural Pembrokeshire (and other parts of South Wales) so he would have known a lot of the farms and farmers, the lanes, fields and footpaths, and been able to identify vulnerable targets. He was himself something of a ‘transient’, but probably known enough/with work credentials, not to have been regarded as a suspicious stranger. I wonder if he was within the hundreds questioned, or whether his base at the time was further away and he hadn’t been in the immediate area for a while so was never on the police radar.
@@halfbakedproductions7887 I don’t think that sweeping statement has much validity. There are 2 unsolved farm murders in South Wales that have resonances with his other crimes, and he was criminally active over a long period, and in the general areas of those two. He’s not linked to ‘every unsolved murder in Wales’ as far as I’m aware. Regarding Griff and Patti we don’t know, but I strongly doubt it was a murder-suicide.
I'm not convinced he killed his sister.
I don't believe it was a murder suicide. Someone who knew both Griff and Patti killed them. The killer also knew Griff and Patti's dog too because the dog let that person be on their property without chasing that person away. So that tells me the dog knew the killer.🤔
Yes You right about that, the dog knew who killed them.
@sandypaw. The dog was a sheepdog, not a guard dog. It wouldn’t just attack a stranger on arrival. The dog might have been left/shut outside during the attack activity. A person, known or unknown, could have been visiting about work. Just one potential scenario: the Cooper mentioned did fencing work, and travelled widely for that work. Someone like that could have been enquiring about, or even already verbally contracted to do, a physical job that Griff with his rheumatoid arthritis couldn’t do. What more natural than that Patti would offer refreshment until Griff came in. All sorts of scenarios are then possible. Ultimately, while a loyal sheepdog is more likely to stick around after an incident resulting in the death of its owner, and while there’s a tiny chance it ran off to raise alarm, it’s most likely it ran off if spooked by the smell of fire. The perpetrator could have left on foot across fields. Interestingly that’s what Cooper did in the other farm murder; didn’t use a vehicle near the property.
The fact that she'd laid on some refreshments also suggests that she knew the killer, either they dropped round unexpectedly and were invited in, or their visit was planned. Griff probably went out to get the cheese to eat alongside the bread.
The dog knew the killer and likely left with them, or was simply taken because it didn't put up any resistance.
Animals are often witnesses who obviously can't be questioned but know the smell of the killer, this wasn't a murder/suicide, needs to be re-evaluated.
It´s possible that the killer walked with one or both of them onto the property, and the dog assumed it was alright. He wouldn´t have had to have "known them", perhaps the killer asked if he could use the phone if he had met with Griff as the older manwas walking home from the shops, or seen Patti from the road in the garden. If he had convinced them to escort them onto the property, the dog most likely wouldn´t have protested too much, poor boy.
I don’t believe he killed his sister.
I don’t think he did either.
There is no evidence whatsoever that supports any kind of motive for him to even want to do so. He's found in the kitchen, wearing his coat and with some newly purchased cheese in the pocket. Clearly he was ambushed and attacked there by someone else.
I agree!!
I do.
Good thing only facts and evidence matters and not your belief doesn't matter then hey?
Thank you to all who researched this case. With the information presented this doesn't track as a murder/suicide. Griff being older and having rheumatoid arthritis prevents being able to lift a chair and use it as a weapon, I've known people who suffered from it and it's difficult at best to do that kind of lifting. There is no motive here except for the lady wanting the land stated toward the end. That's a lot of fingerprints and the police didn't do a good job, especially on the footprints leading away in the snow. Sounds like Malloy just wanted to close the case as soon as possible but with forensics and genealogy now the whole case may be approached differently. thanks DC.
Clearly the police were protecting somebody. They know.
There has to be a third person involved, I can`t swallow the murder/suicide angle.
Omg he was supposed to surround himself with cushions and burn himself to death ???
Indeed. The theory that he burned himself to death makes no sense. The fight or flight response would have kicked in, and given there was no mention of drugs in his system to suppress that response, the theory falls flat.
@@brylcreemy100% agree
After he bashed himself in the head.
@@btcrazee1 exactly 🤦♀️
There's no way in all the universe that this wasn't a double homicide. Something is fishier than a seaside market. Who's hiding what, and who's helping them?
I do not think he killed his sister I doubt it will ever be solved either it's just tragic thank you DC another interesting video well done as usual 👏👏👏👏💕
I really don’t think he murdered his sister. Someone else murdered them both. I pray that they find out the truth. 🙏❤️✝️
Anyone but Griff could be a suspect. How embarrassing, that cop was a joke!
Sheer incompetence by police with blinkered viewpoints.
How, with bloody fingerprints and Footsteps at scene, was it a murder-suicide? Who, even, sets themselves on fire? Ridiculous!
Some people do - political suicides for example. But none of it adds up - tosh for the convenience of those at a blind end.
What about bloody finger/foot prints means it can't have been a murder/suicide?
My dad's colleague poured petrol on himself and set himself on fire.
Awww! How tragic and how unfair that this poor man was brutally murdered and then was blamed for murdering his own sister.😢
Who just goes and buys a block of cheese at the store and when they get home decides they are going to brutally murder their sibling?!😳Everything about this case points to someone else doing this not this poor arthritic elderly man who obviously wasn’t physically capable and was known to be close to his sister. Did the police investigate anything or do their jobs at all back in the 70’s cause this is one of many from the 70’s where you look at the case and think it had to be just plain laziness on these police departments part at that time cause it obviously doesn’t appear that it was investigated properly.🤦♀️
R.I.P. Griff & Patty 🙏🏻❤️🙏🏻❤️
RIP
Thank you for the content ❤
I love the DC presentation and narration -
Great coverageo of a case that really needs to be resolved!
I agree with every commenter so far.
A triple tragedy when you add the terrible investigation. Thanks DC for another banger.
Why would Griff kill his sister or how could he have possibly been physically able to? Patti and Griff lived together for 70 years which you can only conclude the tremendous devotion and love between the two. The shame and injustice of this preposterous conclusion for fifty one years 50 years of blatant incompetence and a grave travesty to both Patti and Griff.
I hope justice will be served in this new investigation. Great srory well told, DC. Thank you!
It would be interesting if anyone was interested in their property or will? Just a thought.
Maybe someone murdered or was attacking his sister when he walked in on him/her. He still had cheese in his pocket, most likely just walked in.
The police are protecting somebody.
No they are not qualified for the job
My adopted Grandpa and "Mom" both had R.A. It got so bad for my "Grandpa" he could barely move, was in constant pain which made him a evil mean person. He ended up lighting the house on fire and eating a bullet. My "Mom" had to have her hands, fingers, wrist, feet, and neck fused. At one time she couldn't even lift a pop can to drink it, one because she didn't have the strength and two because her fingers were so crooked and went in all directions she was not capable of having a grip to even drink.
No way in hell he killed his sister. He literally wouldn't have the strength to do so and probably didn't have the capability to grip anything.
So he went and bought cheese, put it his pocket and went home to commit murder & suicide?.
Exactly. The brother would not do murder if there was some lunch ready
Someone dropped the ball on this one. The facts presented do not line up with the conclusion. Sloppy work by some.
I appreciate your channel - thank you for the excellent videos and narration! Proud member!
I had a Granny Griff! My family were Griffiths's. Thank you for covering these Welsh cases. My husband is from Presteigne, Wales. ❤
So he hit himself over the head with a sewing machine?
Gimme a break.
..and put the cover back on it..really??
@@SerenDipity64711with his arthritic hands
With one hand apparently....
@@mariaquiet6211 how stupid that he was ever considered as the murderer🙄
Those old timey sewing machines were VERY heavy-often made of cast iron. Not likely Griff could have lifted it
He would have had her blood on him
thanks for sharing this -id not heard of it before! the case is really terrible and really deserved more investigation. i too think that its incredibly bad policing to conclude he killed his sister and himself. he was found bashed in the head, covered in partially burned cushions - obviously the killer wanted to burn the house down but unfortunately the fire didn't take. honestly shocking. they deserve justice.
Sounds like Malloy was prejudiced from the start and tried to match the evidence to fit his narrative, even though it completely contradicts the theory. Hopefully the Police will reopen this case and give a fresh and thorough new investigation.
If there was ever a case of police incompetence, prejudice and, perhaps, deliberate obfuscation, this is it. For one, a man of over 70 years of age, suffering from arthritis having the strength to bludgeon his sister to death with a heavy (presumably) wooden chair is ludicrous. And what of the blood on the sewing machine that was covered? The sheer ineptitude displayed by the police is appalling.
There was definitely a 3rd party involved I believe. First of all, like the video stated, these siblings were close during their entire lives and basically did everything together (they obviously loved one another very much, as siblings usually do). Unless I missed something, if it was a murder-suicide, why would the brother (after murdering his beloved sister) smash his head in with a sewing machine and then, after coming to or if he didn't fall unconscious from that, light himself on fire or light the house on fire for him to die in it? Just doesn't make any sense to me. No, there's obviously a big piece of this puzzle missing and I pray the police will reopen the case and find that missing piece soon! RIP to this beautiful brother and sister. ❤
Whoever it was, was comfortable in the home and known by the family. We'd have to know a lot more about the family to say what set it off.
Does not sound like murder suicide at all!!
This is strange - a more or less disabled man who can barely lift a hay bale picks up a chair, beats his sister to death with it and carries it into another room? There, having somehow injured his head badly enough to shed liberal amounts of blood, he carefully puts the cover on her sewing machine, before setting fire to himself. This is very ununsual.
Then a few years later you have a serial killer working the area, with a liking for murdering mature couples. The walkers case I remember, the police getting an idee fix that the IRA were to blame, and ignoring the killer's using their credit card over 100 miles away. Added to that, the South Wales police around this time got a bad reputation for solving murders by framing innocents......
Aren't hay bales extremely heavy?
So Griff beat himself about the head, then placed cushions on the floor, set them on fire and then climbed into the middle of the fire? Easier ways to go.
Random crimes with no motive are rare, but do exist. In 1967 a guy named Victor Hoffman, who had just been released from a mental hospital, entered his neighbors' farm armed with a rifle and proceeded to shoot the whole family, including seven children. He had nothing against them, no real reason to kill them except the fact he had schizophrenia. Sometimes the explanation really is "some random guy entered the house and killed them".
Do the words “you have to be shitting me” come to mind when you heard this?? Anyone?? I had to listen to it twice unbelievable!! Set himself on fire?!?! I’m appalled.😮😡
Someone in that police force knows. I really don’t think people set themselves on fire as a first choice for suicide. He must have had a gun on that farm, no?
No he didn’t kill,his sister.great story thank you ❤
Sounds like a robbery by someone who knew them even though money was found elsewhere in the house. Their 'guest ' visited and Patti asked Griff to go to the shop to buy the cheese to go with the bread.. while he was gone, the guest murdered Patti then ambushed Griff on his return. I don't think Griff was physically capable of such a violent crime and how was it possible to inflict such injuries on himself, never mind set fire to himself with a circle of cushions surrounding him? The unidentified thumb prints could surely be a clue that another person was involved. What a terrible crime. So sad the conclusion was deemed a murder suicide, it just doesn't seem to be the case.
Very interesting case, strange an elderly man could lift a oak chair up to bash his sisters head in. Two siblings living together for so long without any fighting seems strange he would all of a sudden kill his sister. This story is so sad, Maybe someone killed them to rob them ,found some money &left.
Plus, who in hell uses a CHAIR to kill someone? Does not make sense.
It’s not about people’s opinion on their relationship, it’s the fact that Griff physically could not have replaced the cover of the sewing machine after bludgeoning himself with it. That makes no sense. Another person had to do that. The way it was described, it sounded like someone picked up the sewing machine to deliver a final blow to Griff, after Patti was already deceased in the chair and Griff was laying on the floor after being attacked. If the cover was on, sure some blood spatter might get onto the actual machine from the force of the blow, but not a significant amount of blood; that makes it obvious the cover wasn’t on when the perpetrator picked it up to use as a tool, and was put back on after they set the machine back down in its spot.
Very tragic case .hopefully it will be solved soon
How scary!
As a Care Manager in rural Powys I once had to talk to the Dyfed Powys Police Firearms Officer. (I had an issue with a client’s farming son not locking shotgun away, as required by law, after use shooting rabbits, PLUS a client with dementia threatening to shoot people). One fact I learned was that there were about 40,000 people with firearms licences across Dyfed Powys, the vast majority farmers, and every farmer would probably have one. I would want to know if Griff owned a gun. If he did, there’s no way he would have committed suicide in the manner reported here. (Even if he murdered Patty in a frenzied attack, which I doubt).
That's a very good point. Also, even if Griff didn't own a gun it seems like a very unlikely way to commit suicide.
Thank you DC🙏🏼💔🕊️😓🦌
Why would he hold onto cheese, while killing himself? And where did the dog go? So very sad and tragic end for folks who harmed no one. I pray they rest in peace together.
I don't think this was murder/suicide. Thanks DC...💔😥
Fun fact: David Bowie did not have two differently colored eyes. He had a permanently dilated pupil.
It just seems when there are no easy or obvious answers, the man is always made out to be the perpetrator. I didn’t hear any evidence supporting the idea he did it.
And those that knew him vouch for his character.
Also, I can’t imagine anyone killing themselves by fire. There would have been far less horrific and painless ways to go.
Exactly!
I don't believe it was a murder suicide. Griff didn't kill his sister. The person who killed them knew them well, He knew that they kept substantial amount of money, he killed them and took the money. The dog didn't bark bcoz he knew the killer, he was a regular visitor to the farm. Griff is innocent they were both murdered. They deserve to get Justice. Rip Griff and Pattie.
Totally agree with you. Someone they were familiar with knew they had cash in the house. Unfortunately I think the police dropped the ball on this one
Totally agree with you. Someone they were familiar with knew they had cash in the house. Unfortunately I think the police dropped the ball on this one
@@Mmoose712 They sure did. I really wonder who killed them.
We'll unfortunately never know unless some of the evidence was saved and an investigator takes on the case and they use a family geneology DNA site
@@Mmoose712 Dropped the ball? Did they even pick it up?
This is a very complicated case as well as mind boggling, definitely doesn't sound like a murder suicide. Hoping they catch the killer.
Thanks for sharing. 👍👍
DNA analysis will probably help the police.
I don't usually comment on the cases that I listen to, but this is an exception. Although it is certainly a double homicide and not a murder-suicide, and I do hope that the case is revisited- I am comforted by the community the Thomas siblings were a part of. They held a vigil not only for Patti, but for Griff as well. Which speaks volumes about their certainty in Griff's integrity and character. May they both rest in peace, may justice be done for both of them.
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I have RA. There's no way he lifted a heavy chair over his head. RA causes your hands, elbows and shoulders to be extremely swollen and sore. It wouldn't have been possible. Especially with his left hand being so severely effected. You literally can't grasp due to pain and swelling. It would be like trying to swing a chair with a sprained wrist.
8:52 I suspect the dog did it, then left to start a new life elsewhere with a new identity!
maybe🤔🤣🤣👍
Glad I wasn't on that jury. The Scots have a third option, which always made sense to me: Guilty, Not Guilty and Not Proven. Thanks for sharing this!
I heard on a recent podcast that the brother and sister were buried with a sheet of metal between each coffin, a resident remembers their father mentioning this after returning from the funeral, what was the reason for this? Does anyone know? those involved in investigating the murders and the minister who wouldn't allow the brother and sister's coffins into the chapel for a funeral service should be ashamed of themselves, why were the ladies in the village not allowed to attend the funeral, again does anyone know?
Well done to the narrator for concentrating on getting Llangolman pronounced quite well. But ... the first vowel in both "Dyfed" and "ffynon" is as in "up", not "him". Also, Clebran is not a place, but the name of a local monthly magazine, meaning "gossip" in the local dialect.
Unless there is definitive evidence to support someones guilt, no conclusion should be drawn and the case should be remain open and re-examed until solved properly.
It wasn't a murder suicide. If he was going to commit suicide he would have done it a different way. And he definitely didn't kill his sister. I don't like lazy police work.
Sounds like the police were lazy
It’s beyond hilarious suggesting this 70s man orchestrated such a bloody and impossible suicide pact, the logistics just don’t add up and how the police got away with suggesting such a thing just baffles the mind
The money they had was certainly substantial for back then and the dog disappearing definitely a third party involved and very sad for these siblings that nothing was done
Whenever I hear of a case like this one, where the verdict is so ridiculously wrong, my first and only thought is that the police knew who did it, and are covering it up.
1976- Wales UK- The bodies of Griff and Patti Thomas were found inside the farm house- A haunted house and a young girls ghost roams the farm.
@03:47 that looks like a military fire engine, maybe RAF as it has the water canon on the top. I was wondering if this was during the fire service strike, but that wouldn't happen for another 12 months or so after this crime. In the 1970's when the fire service went on strike the military provided the fire service using cold ware era fire engines. The military fire engines were olive drab, and were affectionately know as the green goddesses.
How the hell was he supposed to have beaten himself to death with a sewing machine, set himself on fire, and replaced the cover of the machine? Do the cops think Griff was an octopus or something? It's physically impossible, especially considering his age and arthritis. The ruling is absurd.
Thanks to you I know how the names starting with "Ll" should be pronounced. Now I wonder if the name Floyd could possibly come from Lloyd?
I wonder …. Could an unprecedented rift have occurred between brother and sister because she wanted to sell up and move (likely to somewhere easier to manage) , and he didn’t? Something they hadn’t aired to others. That sort of threatened disturbance to an ingrained way of life might cause the sort of row in which someone unstable or unused to being crossed might snap. This would give a bit of contextual understanding for such an event. However, it neither seems likely that such a row would so escalate as Griff returned from shopping, still with his coat on, nor explain the bizarre manner of the alleged suicide. [You can tell by my many very varied comments that I’m intrigued by this case. All is speculation. That’s inevitable when questions remain.]
I like your voice ❤
I just can't imagine a more horrific fate than being brutally beaten and then burned to death while still alive, and then being blamed for somehow doing this yourself....while also blamed for the brutally beating your sister to death. This was the conclusion that would make things easier for the investigators and I can't see any other reason why they came to it.
Looking forward to updattes, as I'm sure you are too.
I’ve been scratching my head trying to think of a scenario in which Griff murders Patti, reacting to the comments about them being gentle people living a gentle life together. Sibling murders do happen. The only thing I can come up with is if Griff had advanced dementia or a severe mental health delusional disorder, hidden from others by their isolated life, and somehow he didn’t recognise Patti when he came in, mistaking her for an intruder. But, nah …. It doesn’t fit at all. There hasn’t been ANY suggestion or evidence about such a mental state and even if he was basically physically fit, his RA (even if mild) would have diminished his hand grip and strength so I doubt he’d be capable of the severe bashing that was delivered to Patti. Add to that the fact that his own head was injured and he was burned in the chair too …. The suicide-murder conclusion seems bizarre. The evidence for 3rd party involvement isn’t strong, but is circumstantially at least as strong as the murder-suicide conclusion. I do hope this case will be re-investigated for potential use of modern forensic techniques.
I meant to include: Plus he wasn’t isolated from the community: driving, shopping etc. Doesn’t fit with someone with a cognitive disorder …
Meant to include: but Griff doesn’t seem to have been totally socially isolated from the community - still shopping, and I presume driving … Doesn’t seem to suggest cognitive disorder …..
Trying to say that someone wouldn't be capable of violence because they have deeply religious views is laughable. That said though i can't see a 73 year old with arthritis being able to swing a chair like that
Would you consider doing a case from my hone town of Worcester? David McGreavy. He brutally murdered 3 young children he was babysitting, then impaled their heads in the town. He's possibly recently been released. There was also another murder in the same house 100 years before that!
David Bowie didn't have different colored eyes, he had what is called a keyhole pupil because the pupil is shaped so much like the old door keyholes in older homes. Plus you can see it if you pay the least bit of attention.
Fishy ruling. 😮
There isn't a motive to suggest the crime was murder-suicide. 500 pounds in Patti's purse????
This is so preposterous to think he killed his sister. Absolutely not. There is no way that this makes sense in any shape or form.
Murder-suicide? So Griff bashed himself in the head, put the object back, arranged cushions on the kitchen floor, laid down, and set himself and the cushions on fire? That’s the most absurd story I’ve heard in a long time. More likely the attacker surprised Patti with the suddenness of the attack, the violence of which also overturned the tv, then Griff came home and caught the person in the process of searching for money to take. They attacked him too, then in a panic from unexpectedly having to kill a second person and maybe even concerned that more people might come, they threw him on some cushions and set both on fire with the intention of burning the whole house and hiding the evidence. The fire went out but they needn’t have worried anyway because apparently the authorities just decided to start making things up.
The investigation sounds a bit lackluster to me. I can't see how the brother could have done it
I don't think for a second that Griff killed his sister, and I imagine both of them would be gutted to find out that was the conclusion the police came to, after they'd spent 70+ peaceful years living together.
Ooh a case from my county Pembrokeshire!
My grandfather's people were from Wales. It's very pretty
@TheVintageFoxyLady I live in a tiny part of a tiny country where hardly anything happens, I’m just surprised the case is on dark curiosities radar as this case isn’t well known that’s all
@@SnarkyLady it’s beautiful here, we have the longest coastal path in the uk I believe at 187 miles 🙂
@@sarahfrith1984 No wonder I love the beach!! I'm in Pennsylvania near Lake Erie. 🥂
me too! Haverfordwest, mentioned in this case.
Another balls up investigation 🔎 .
Got a thumb's up from the owners of the two missing thumb prints 😲😔
I think the police were up against it. All they had was fingerprints, which prove nothing except that at some time the person touched an object. just the sheer amount of time that it would have taken to track down and interview all of these people. I think it should be re examined though, they probably developed tunnel vision.
As far as the Police where concerned it was easier to say that the brother murdered the sister so the case could be said to be solved. It costs money to re open a case so I do think that very little effort will be applied to this case by the Police.
People are killed sometimes and money is not taken. I think the police bungled this one. I don't think he murdered his sister.
I can't imagine him doing that with cheese still in his pocket. he had no intention of ending his life that day, or the life of his sister.
Someone may have thought they had money, etc. Someone they knew and were expecting to come by. I don't think it was murder/suicide. Homicide yes.
So, no evidence of them having arguments or his having a violent temper. Yet suddenly he snaps and kills his sister? Yeah, right.
Did anyone look at Pat Malloy for this? He seemed to immediately say it was a suicide murder and then not done any more investigating
Either a coverup or lazy cops!
Don't believe he murded his sister and then himself.
He would never have hit himself over the head. And then burn himself.
Definitely a third. Person
This is someone with experience that did this.the sister’s body being positioned sitting up and with the TV on is definitely staged.it’s something that didn’t need to be done.it’s like a signature that serial killers do.