Thanks Tim. This way of looking at it helps me to understand why non physical entities would be trying to teach us to be more loving on this plane in order to improve life both here and after. I couldn't get others interpretation of coming "down" here initially from an all loving existence and then entities trying to teach us to be more loving here (when we already had it in the first place). Hope you understand what i'm saying. Hard to explain.😊
@@TimFreke1 No! I am making a point you new age peddlers try to cover up with flowery language also like chopra spira. Who trying to kid “Emerging Understanding” just another Belief system, yours in this case, to add to the thousands already out there.
@@BubbleGendut Please explain why anything I say is 'new age'? And then why i am 'peddling' anything and what I am 'covering up'? You are right, of course there are thousands of ways of understanding existence - we've had thousands of years of history and there are billions of us. It would be surprising if it were otherwise. And of course what I am suggesting is where I have come to so far in my exploration of existence. What is your belief system and why do you hold it?
@@TimFreke1 I have no belief system & I don’t claim to know anything beyond my subjective experience. I don’t need to label myself with a spiritual or Religious badge. Existence can’t be understood “Nobody Knows” Many individuals make claims & speculative hypothesis that they know. How? They can’t know! It’s just New age claims to peddle & sell woo woo for a handsome profit.
@ so I hear an accusation that I am selling some beliefs for a handsome profit. That is your belief, although you claim you have no beliefs. As it turns out, it’s a belief that’s wrong because overwhelmingly I give my work away as I’ve done in this video. A man who thinks he has no beliefs is unable to see his beliefs and that seems to be a description of your predicament right now my friend. And the price you pay for this unconsciousness is you believe things which are wrong such as your accusation against myself. If you’d been able to see that belief you’d been able to check it out and found that it was wrong. The points I’m making here are quite different to understanding Socrates claim that he knows nothing in any absolute sense which is something I assert myself in this conversation - I can’t remember if it is part one or part two. The claim to know things beyond our everyday experience is what has enable the physics that is connecting you and I right now on the Internet. The fact that you don’t understand it doesn’t mean that there isn’t someone else who does as that clearly shows.
Perhaps I'm missing something; but it still sounds quite monistic. That there is a thing called Oneness that organises things, or has relationships with itself. It still sounds like a puppeteer. I love the work you guys do, and these discussions are important to counter the unhealthy, non-dual freight train on the internet. ❤xx
@@DIBBY40 sorry to give you that impression because that’s not what I mean at all. The one is simply what we designate by the number one - it is the undifferentiated. It’s not organising anything. It’s certainly not a puppeteer. Simply a foundational unity that is differentiating into everything and all those systems are in relationship with each other - including you and me.
@TimFreke1 Thanks Tim. It still sounds like a something. If "it" is able to differentiate into everything , then what is the nature of this differentiating principle? It still sounds like a prime mover, an intentional intelligence (even an unconscious one seems to develop enough conscious intention to at least develop complex systems) at the beginning.
@@Clive-ooTim talks about "the One being in relationship with itself". It's that statement I find confusing. It sounds like (even if that is not the intention) monism. That the individuals are there for the purpose of the One to relate through, which would negate to a certain extent individuality.
@@TimFreke1That in itself is also very compatible with nondual Shaiva Tantra though. Shiva (consciousness but also form) and Shakti (energy/matter) is emerging and developing in the universal game of discovering and rediscovering itself in multiplicity, enjoying individuality in unity. :)
@@andreasrylander how does shaiva tantra relate to time? real? an illusion? and to what extent does it view the world of form as merely appearance vs. fully real? curious to understand better!
As a Taoist Christian I find your explanations to be very similar to my 47 years of experience even tho I am identified by you as being non scientific.
So where does Jesus come into this. Could he have come down from a heaven. (Possibly there are many different heavens / places in the afterlife. The Christian heaven being just one of them.🤔 Sorry I don't know very much about Christian Taoism.
@ Great. It has a lot to do with the paradoxical contemplations both traditions value and our human union with divine presence that is uniquely expressed in momentary growth not prescriptive structures or threats, like dancing the fluid line that joins not separates Yin and Yang
I think consciousness includes the ability to determine one thing/experience from another and comprehend it in some capacity and as such all living things are conscious on some level. To be conscious of the self is a different matter and is that which sets us apart from most living things but not all. It is the self that is focusing its attention and utilising consciousness (being conscious of self on some level). We have all experienced different levels of self regarding awareness (which is ironic when you consider non-duality and how they want to eradicate the self) - It is the self that is conscious otherwise we would just do what our instincts tell us to do in relationship to the environment and chemical reactions - Without the self we have no free will or consciousness. The cell is currently been deemed as been conscious because it had the ability to determine one thing from another, comprehend that and then act.
Question I have is in regard to all of the NDE evidence we continue to exist as an individual beyond death and apparently long beyond, so where does liberation from individuality occur? My assumption has been we can continue as an independent In-Divide_Dual or individual for as long as we wish. Although I can also imagine we might merge with others to become a greater whole, and they, in time with another group to become even more. Reaching complete unity would completely side step that kind of progression. Sometimes I think the Oneness we came out of uses us to learn from as we explore all of the possibilities which can happen. Edit: BTW, I'm in Reading, UK training for a new job :) Have been working in Qatar for the last seven years.
Great question. If we get enough questions we'll do a video addressing them and included this one. If not I'll try to remember to return to this and do my best to reply in text.
a question from me would be, why do we "liberation" from the individual? for me, I've shifted from seeking freedom from being an individual (which felt increasingly like a self-rejecting escapist endeavor) to revering and celebrating the bittersweetness of it, with a sense of self-compassion rather than self-abandonment. That's been my path at least! Being individuals (simultaneously interconnected with everyone, and all else) is a great source of suffering, but also so much breathtaking beauty, dont ya think?
@@JohnAtkinson-v5z with big love and real respect I think that’s completely wrong John. It’s a naive version of epistemology I once held myself. Knowledge always relies on ideas which are the categories with which we differentiate something from what it is not. Without such differentiation there is no knowing of anything. Even to know the one is to differentiate this knowing from the experience of separateness for example.
@TimFreke1 I'm saying The Eternal identifies who we are and can differentiate between what we have which is subject to time and what we are, which is timeless.
Radical non duality is Maya's most ingenious trap. It attracts the spiritually inclined and curious and sucks all of the love and life out of us. So many people awakening from it now - and (eventually) better for the experience in many ways. The first dissolution that I experienced was very empty. It was that experience that led me back out of the non duality trap - It took a long time to rebuild my life, sanity and empathy. In hindsight I wouldn't change it, but it is unnecessary, unhelpful for our spiritual evolution, and can be avoided. Sadly it's a money spinner - and it can be taught by anyone because it requires zero academic application and any questions can be rejected with a "who is asking" or "it's just this". Advaita Vedanta was my antidote. My real dissolution was peaceful and pure contentment, and it's accessible at any time (yet not permanent). And I love Life! Thank you for your message.
Thank you for sharing 🙏🏾. Would you mind explain the difference between "radical non duality" and "Advaita vedanta", while Advaita (to me; been dwelling in that perspective with Ramarna Maharshi for 8 months straight now) seems to be quite radical non duality. Is there any example of what radical non duality is for you? And what is the gain from Advaita, that lead you out of the "trap"? Very interesting to examine, maby I can learn something new? 👍🏾
@@healthexcellenceconsulting Radical Non Duality is simply an observation based on initial awakening. Oh look, there's nothing to do, there's nobody here, everything is one. That's great but it's only an initial awakening and they stop there (and worse, they all seem to start teaching). Advaita Vedanta sees the same awakening as important but it sees it as the very beginning of practice - not the end. It also discusses Bhakti (Devotion), Silence, Self-inquiry (jnana yoga) and Karma Yoga (service to others). It ensures the person is ready for the first awakening and for what comes after that. All those 'teachers' of Radical Nonduality are at very best Guides, and in most cases, charlatans who can damage the individual seeker. RUclips is infested by them. The upside is that after awakening even those Radical teachers start to shift to Advaita or other deeper paths. If you feel love and complete unity in your awakening you're on the right path - keep going. If it feels empty and like nothingness - stop whatever practice you have and ask 'where is the love?' that's the litmus test. What Ramana advocated is Atma Vichara - a single component or tool used in Advaita but one which many have jumped upon as the be all and end all of seeking - that's a slippery slope, again, unless you feel real love when doing it.
Another thing science hasn't solved is that the beginning of the universe may not have been at the big bang. The universe could be going through cycles. Perhaps its even eternal. This would still work with Tim's interpretation. Except the ground may just be physical. It would just give lots more time obviously for the evolution of spirit over each of the universe's cycles.
@@EndlessTeaz I don’t think I’m any of those things my friend - I’m interested in creating a spirituality which could only come into existence after the scientific revolution and all that involving universe.
@ Have you read, “adventures beyond the body” by William Buhlma and “The Golden Dawn or Light on the great picture” by J. H. Potts. If not you will have a good time reading them. I have broke my neck twice and the disassociation you referred to, is one of the few reliefs I get from this body of mine. However the beauty of the fibonacci sequence cannot be just a fluke, there is more to it and the projection, in my opinion, is one of the keys to the higher level of existence. As you said there are likely groups of psyche’s forming these levels correct? So that would mean you support the Simpsons portrayal of heaven. If you have not seen that episode the clip is on RUclips. Essentially each group had their own “level.”
In conclusion then now that I am understanding you further - There is no supernatural and god is a communion of souls/psyches existing in the imaginos (A conscious realm). The root is a simplistic non conscious ground of being. The model of your reality is naturalistic where the source of being is some other substance/essence that is not matter, energy, god or consciousness but it is spirit - Is that right - Not a supernatural spirit So naturalistically speaking the nature/essence of the one/ground of being is an unknown mystery which is fine as this is what differentiates naturalism from materialism although they are branches on the same tree So god, psyche, imaginos are all of the same substance - The one/ground of being which is scientifically speaking an unknown substance/essence but it is what we experience as a living conscious being and when we die - This sounds a lot like Taoism
I suggest forget the idea of 'substance' altogether when considering these issues. Try the idea of 'information differentiating the undifferentiated'. We tend to think information must be in a medium or substance but physics has found that is not the case. Light for example is a wave (information) but not in anything (in the way waves are in water or sound waves in air). Light is just information. Hence we can understand why mathematics has been so good at helping us understand the fundamental levels of reality ... which otherwise is frankly very puzzling. It is because the foundational levels are informational and we understand that with maths. This can sound very cold ... and it is because the human stuff we love will emerge much later. But we can say 'the undifferentiated in the process of differentiating' is 'the possibility to emerge as anything' and I like that. So the universe is the possibility for anything emerging as this ... and who know what else.
@@TimFreke1 Just one last thing, when you say "Theism at the leading edge" you mean the flowering from the root into a god? So from ground of being evolving into communion of psyches/souls which in turn results in a God that has evolved from simple beginnings?
Its possible in the distant future science will just explain the phyche as just more physics. Quantum fields or something or a new science not yet found, beyond quantum physics.
@TimFreke1 ah yes, I remember now you mentioned in the video, they are new and separate things in and of themselves. I guess I was just saying that science will eventually explain it. Like it won't be considered paranormal.
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Beautiful, Tim and Jessica. ❤🙏
so nice to see you here, Joan, and to know that you're finding beauty in some of what we're sharing!
Probably the best video you have made about this baffling topic. Appreciate it! Looking forward to part 2.
@@NarutoCurl thank you - thanks for letting me know
Thank you so much for your sane and humane approach to spirituality. Deep appreciation💜
Thanks Tim.
This way of looking at it helps me to understand why non physical entities would be trying to teach us to be more loving on this plane in order to improve life both here and after.
I couldn't get others interpretation of coming "down" here initially from an all loving existence and then entities trying to teach us to be more loving here (when we already had it in the first place). Hope you understand what i'm saying. Hard to explain.😊
It has been very baffling Tim but you are explaining it better.
Emerging Understanding = Another new Belief System
Of course. That seems to confront your own belief system. May be you think you haven't got one? One of the most self-contradictory of belief systems.
@@TimFreke1 No! I am making a point you new age peddlers try to cover up with flowery language also like chopra spira.
Who trying to kid “Emerging Understanding” just another Belief system, yours in this case, to add to the thousands already out there.
@@BubbleGendut Please explain why anything I say is 'new age'? And then why i am 'peddling' anything and what I am 'covering up'?
You are right, of course there are thousands of ways of understanding existence - we've had thousands of years of history and there are billions of us. It would be surprising if it were otherwise.
And of course what I am suggesting is where I have come to so far in my exploration of existence.
What is your belief system and why do you hold it?
@@TimFreke1 I have no belief system & I don’t claim to know anything beyond my subjective experience. I don’t need to label myself with a spiritual or Religious badge.
Existence can’t be understood “Nobody Knows” Many individuals make claims & speculative hypothesis that they know. How? They can’t know! It’s just New age claims to peddle & sell woo woo for a handsome profit.
@ so I hear an accusation that I am selling some beliefs for a handsome profit. That is your belief, although you claim you have no beliefs.
As it turns out, it’s a belief that’s wrong because overwhelmingly I give my work away as I’ve done in this video.
A man who thinks he has no beliefs is unable to see his beliefs and that seems to be a description of your predicament right now my friend. And the price you pay for this unconsciousness is you believe things which are wrong such as your accusation against myself. If you’d been able to see that belief you’d been able to check it out and found that it was wrong.
The points I’m making here are quite different to understanding Socrates claim that he knows nothing in any absolute sense which is something I assert myself in this conversation - I can’t remember if it is part one or part two.
The claim to know things beyond our everyday experience is what has enable the physics that is connecting you and I right now on the Internet. The fact that you don’t understand it doesn’t mean that there isn’t someone else who does as that clearly shows.
Perhaps I'm missing something; but it still sounds quite monistic. That there is a thing called Oneness that organises things, or has relationships with itself. It still sounds like a puppeteer. I love the work you guys do, and these discussions are important to counter the unhealthy, non-dual freight train on the internet. ❤xx
@@DIBBY40 sorry to give you that impression because that’s not what I mean at all. The one is simply what we designate by the number one - it is the undifferentiated. It’s not organising anything. It’s certainly not a puppeteer. Simply a foundational unity that is differentiating into everything and all those systems are in relationship with each other - including you and me.
@TimFreke1 Thanks Tim. It still sounds like a something. If "it" is able to differentiate into everything , then what is the nature of this differentiating principle? It still sounds like a prime mover, an intentional intelligence (even an unconscious one seems to develop enough conscious intention to at least develop complex systems) at the beginning.
@ nope. Not that at all. Think of what we refer to with 1. It’s not moving anything.
@@DIBBY40perhaps it's nature is just mathematical or fundamental forces etc.🤔 With no intelligence. Intelligence came later with plants and animals.
@@Clive-ooTim talks about "the One being in relationship with itself". It's that statement I find confusing. It sounds like (even if that is not the intention) monism. That the individuals are there for the purpose of the One to relate through, which would negate to a certain extent individuality.
Sounds a bit like nondual Shaiva Tantra! Love it ❤
@@andreasrylander yes with the added recognition of existence as a process of evolutionary emergence.
@@TimFreke1That in itself is also very compatible with nondual Shaiva Tantra though. Shiva (consciousness but also form) and Shakti (energy/matter) is emerging and developing in the universal game of discovering and rediscovering itself in multiplicity, enjoying individuality in unity. :)
@@andreasrylander how does shaiva tantra relate to time? real? an illusion? and to what extent does it view the world of form as merely appearance vs. fully real? curious to understand better!
As a Taoist Christian I find your explanations to be very similar to my 47 years of experience even tho I am identified by you as being non scientific.
So where does Jesus come into this. Could he have come down from a heaven. (Possibly there are many different heavens / places in the afterlife. The Christian heaven being just one of them.🤔 Sorry I don't know very much about Christian Taoism.
@ it’s the idea of being one with God and transforming self by serving others without the concept of vengeance
@@deadfdr nice 👍🙂
@@deadfdr thanks, I'll look into it...
@ Great. It has a lot to do with the paradoxical contemplations both traditions value and our human union with divine presence that is uniquely expressed in momentary growth not prescriptive structures or threats, like dancing the fluid line that joins not separates Yin and Yang
I think consciousness includes the ability to determine one thing/experience from another and comprehend it in some capacity and as such all living things are conscious on some level. To be conscious of the self is a different matter and is that which sets us apart from most living things but not all. It is the self that is focusing its attention and utilising consciousness (being conscious of self on some level). We have all experienced different levels of self regarding awareness (which is ironic when you consider non-duality and how they want to eradicate the self) - It is the self that is conscious otherwise we would just do what our instincts tell us to do in relationship to the environment and chemical reactions - Without the self we have no free will or consciousness.
The cell is currently been deemed as been conscious because it had the ability to determine one thing from another, comprehend that and then act.
Question I have is in regard to all of the NDE evidence we continue to exist as an individual beyond death and apparently long beyond, so where does liberation from individuality occur? My assumption has been we can continue as an independent In-Divide_Dual or individual for as long as we wish. Although I can also imagine we might merge with others to become a greater whole, and they, in time with another group to become even more. Reaching complete unity would completely side step that kind of progression. Sometimes I think the Oneness we came out of uses us to learn from as we explore all of the possibilities which can happen. Edit: BTW, I'm in Reading, UK training for a new job :) Have been working in Qatar for the last seven years.
Like the song says, you get what you need. Relax and be the best laser hobbyist in Reading, for now. Trust the process.
Great question. If we get enough questions we'll do a video addressing them and included this one. If not I'll try to remember to return to this and do my best to reply in text.
a question from me would be, why do we "liberation" from the individual? for me, I've shifted from seeking freedom from being an individual (which felt increasingly like a self-rejecting escapist endeavor) to revering and celebrating the bittersweetness of it, with a sense of self-compassion rather than self-abandonment. That's been my path at least! Being individuals (simultaneously interconnected with everyone, and all else) is a great source of suffering, but also so much breathtaking beauty, dont ya think?
When given the opportunity, your perishable existence will trade itself for your timeless existence.
When given the opportunity, your perishable existence will trade itself for your timeless existence.
Several billion things expressing interpretation.
Words only invite us to believe or disbelieve. Words cannot invite anyone to know anything.
@@JohnAtkinson-v5z with big love and real respect I think that’s completely wrong John. It’s a naive version of epistemology I once held myself.
Knowledge always relies on ideas which are the categories with which we differentiate something from what it is not. Without such differentiation there is no knowing of anything. Even to know the one is to differentiate this knowing from the experience of separateness for example.
@TimFreke1 I'm saying The Eternal identifies who we are and can differentiate between what we have which is subject to time and what we are, which is timeless.
@ yes. But suggest you are entirely wrong.
@@TimFreke1 maybe, but as you say, we will trade our knowledge of the perishable as we might perceive it at any point for knowledge of the timeless.
@ I actually don’t say that John
Radical non duality is Maya's most ingenious trap. It attracts the spiritually inclined and curious and sucks all of the love and life out of us. So many people awakening from it now - and (eventually) better for the experience in many ways.
The first dissolution that I experienced was very empty. It was that experience that led me back out of the non duality trap - It took a long time to rebuild my life, sanity and empathy. In hindsight I wouldn't change it, but it is unnecessary, unhelpful for our spiritual evolution, and can be avoided. Sadly it's a money spinner - and it can be taught by anyone because it requires zero academic application and any questions can be rejected with a "who is asking" or "it's just this".
Advaita Vedanta was my antidote. My real dissolution was peaceful and pure contentment, and it's accessible at any time (yet not permanent). And I love Life!
Thank you for your message.
Thank you for sharing 🙏🏾. Would you mind explain the difference between "radical non duality" and "Advaita vedanta", while Advaita (to me; been dwelling in that perspective with Ramarna Maharshi for 8 months straight now) seems to be quite radical non duality.
Is there any example of what radical non duality is for you? And what is the gain from Advaita, that lead you out of the "trap"? Very interesting to examine, maby I can learn something new? 👍🏾
@@healthexcellenceconsulting Radical Non Duality is simply an observation based on initial awakening. Oh look, there's nothing to do, there's nobody here, everything is one. That's great but it's only an initial awakening and they stop there (and worse, they all seem to start teaching).
Advaita Vedanta sees the same awakening as important but it sees it as the very beginning of practice - not the end. It also discusses Bhakti (Devotion), Silence, Self-inquiry (jnana yoga) and Karma Yoga (service to others). It ensures the person is ready for the first awakening and for what comes after that.
All those 'teachers' of Radical Nonduality are at very best Guides, and in most cases, charlatans who can damage the individual seeker. RUclips is infested by them. The upside is that after awakening even those Radical teachers start to shift to Advaita or other deeper paths.
If you feel love and complete unity in your awakening you're on the right path - keep going. If it feels empty and like nothingness - stop whatever practice you have and ask 'where is the love?' that's the litmus test.
What Ramana advocated is Atma Vichara - a single component or tool used in Advaita but one which many have jumped upon as the be all and end all of seeking - that's a slippery slope, again, unless you feel real love when doing it.
Another thing science hasn't solved is that the beginning of the universe may not have been at the big bang. The universe could be going through cycles. Perhaps its even eternal. This would still work with Tim's interpretation. Except the ground may just be physical. It would just give lots more time obviously for the evolution of spirit over each of the universe's cycles.
A genealogical series of universes giving birth to universes seems plausible to me.
Part 2 now available ruclips.net/video/_fAyy6jk9bE/видео.html
So he’s a spiritually Dao Atheist? Who believes in astral projection?
@@EndlessTeaz I don’t think I’m any of those things my friend - I’m interested in creating a spirituality which could only come into existence after the scientific revolution and all that involving universe.
@ Have you read, “adventures beyond the body” by William Buhlma and “The Golden Dawn or Light on the great picture” by J. H. Potts. If not you will have a good time reading them. I have broke my neck twice and the disassociation you referred to, is one of the few reliefs I get from this body of mine. However the beauty of the fibonacci sequence cannot be just a fluke, there is more to it and the projection, in my opinion, is one of the keys to the higher level of existence. As you said there are likely groups of psyche’s forming these levels correct? So that would mean you support the Simpsons portrayal of heaven. If you have not seen that episode the clip is on RUclips. Essentially each group had their own “level.”
❤
@@ccvttc I hope you’re good lovely one
In conclusion then now that I am understanding you further - There is no supernatural and god is a communion of souls/psyches existing in the imaginos (A conscious realm). The root is a simplistic non conscious ground of being.
The model of your reality is naturalistic where the source of being is some other substance/essence that is not matter, energy, god or consciousness but it is spirit - Is that right - Not a supernatural spirit
So naturalistically speaking the nature/essence of the one/ground of being is an unknown mystery which is fine as this is what differentiates naturalism from materialism although they are branches on the same tree
So god, psyche, imaginos are all of the same substance - The one/ground of being which is scientifically speaking an unknown substance/essence but it is what we experience as a living conscious being and when we die - This sounds a lot like Taoism
Taoism at the start - Theism at the leading edge 😃
I suggest forget the idea of 'substance' altogether when considering these issues. Try the idea of 'information differentiating the undifferentiated'. We tend to think information must be in a medium or substance but physics has found that is not the case. Light for example is a wave (information) but not in anything (in the way waves are in water or sound waves in air). Light is just information. Hence we can understand why mathematics has been so good at helping us understand the fundamental levels of reality ... which otherwise is frankly very puzzling. It is because the foundational levels are informational and we understand that with maths. This can sound very cold ... and it is because the human stuff we love will emerge much later. But we can say 'the undifferentiated in the process of differentiating' is 'the possibility to emerge as anything' and I like that. So the universe is the possibility for anything emerging as this ... and who know what else.
Thanks for sticking with this.
@@TimFreke1 Just one last thing, when you say "Theism at the leading edge" you mean the flowering from the root into a god? So from ground of being evolving into communion of psyches/souls which in turn results in a God that has evolved from simple beginnings?
@ 👍yes
Its possible in the distant future science will just explain the phyche as just more physics. Quantum fields or something or a new science not yet found, beyond quantum physics.
I don't think we can reduce biology to physics or psyche to biology. The more emergent is 'more than' previous levels.
@TimFreke1 ah yes, I remember now you mentioned in the video, they are new and separate things in and of themselves. I guess I was just saying that science will eventually explain it. Like it won't be considered paranormal.
@ yep