Great episode! Really nice insight from Dylan who didn't have to hide information since the split is over so a lot of behind the scene stuff that is usually not talked about and not just some fluff answers that other coaches/players give while they are still playing during the season.
I really really want you guys to get fredy122 (or even SeeEl) on the show to talk about the Rogue side of their inferior drafts this final and the choking narrative
I don’t even think Rogue choke now, they are just bad. I think rogue before just tried to play perfectly and there’s strengths and negatives with that so if you get caught out, there’s a huge mental disadvantage, to anyone who tries to be perfect at least, but now they can’t even do that, malrang got gapped with inspired-esque counter jungles and it was over.
hes absolutely right...FNC fans are really without words concerning their own team. YOu cant even compare that remotely with G2 fans. When G2 was failing last year...it was the FNC FANS that actually insulted caps and jankos and Rekkles. While the G2 fans were just trying to take pressure of their team. It feels like FNC fans are the exact opposite of this. Its like fans from a german football team...and Manchester united. (FNC obviously being Manchaster united....)
@@alexandernaydenov7539 "even if they win" so true haha after g2 beat them all 3-0 they came out to say that it wasn't meritorious because they don't "know what happened" to upset and hily, the same with Rogue xD
Glad to see Monte shout out Monster, I adore pretty much all of Naoki Urasawa's works, and while Monster is an absolute 10/10 anime for me, more modern anime viewers probably will be a bit bored on the pacing of the animation especially since it's older. If you don't watch Monster, you should definitely read it, it's the best way to enjoy his story and art. That and 20/21st Century Boys for sure, if not his entire catalogue.
For me Monster was more frustrating. Not only are there episodes where nothing happens except that the already established character traits are beaten over your head repeatedly. But the MC was just irritating to watch. SPOILERS BELOW His repeated inaction and inability of taking action. From the point onwards where he first had the ability to end it all he becomes pretty much directly responsible for everything that happens afterwards. Yet he cannot do it again and again. But he got to preserve is precious morals at the cost of everyone else. Not to mention the ending is plain stupid where they leave the guy completely unguarded in a regular hospital so he just leaves.
Monster was okay. I liked it well enough but I too found the ending a little unsatisfying and the pace a little slow. I guess the villain was too empty and enigmatic for my taste. It left too much to the imagination for me.
I wish worlds had like one big group where everyone plays each other once, then they use this ranking to seed everyone (or just top 8) into a double elimination bracket. I don't know if this would be significantly more expensive to run but I think it would be a lot more interesting to watch than the current format (you see every team play each other) and then the playoffs would be wild!
It's 120 games vs 48. I'd assume you'd be increasingly more likely to see 4 KR and 4 CN playoff brackets. Maybe 2 teams sneak in that aren't from those regions
There's also the issue of who wants to watch pain gaming vs damwon, followed by TOP vs peace eSports, even FNC vs DFM wouldn't be an amazing match to watch.
This would be fine if regions sent only 2 teams. And the minor regions got 1. A round robin would be fun, with a competition based win rate scoring method to seed them. Similar to MTG Swiss format.
2:52:50 slightly awkward reference point. Leeds chilling back in Premier league now after a long time in the wilderness. Sunderland a good example though. Bit closer to home maybe for Thorin!
Thorins comment about the whole "working smarter not harder" thing is fucking brilliant and so true. That clip should be played to every team at their house before they step into their team meetings and scrims.
2:14:55 Another thing that everyone severely underestimates is the availability of high-quality vods. I got into LEC by scanning game summaries for interesting picks. I used to be a TSM (more of a Bjerg) fanboy early on, but when I scanned places for off meta picks I found og UoL. They'd always be playing something fun or creative - all of a sudden I wasn't even scanning the vods, I was just watching the replays. I became a fan. Then that team became meta hogs and G2 appeared with Caps/Perkz and they were by far the funnest team I have ever watched play. Now I exclusively watch LEC, usually tuning in to entire games but mostly rewatching the stream after it's done (able to skip low points, pauses, commentary, or games I don't want to watch). That is super unique to e-sports. And I would absolutely LOVE a different worlds system. I would rewatch a series in a lower bracket if I missed it and it was epic. I even went back and watched the bo5 between G2 and SKT. Like... for me, I watch NHL and basketball (mostly NHL) and not a lot comes close to a NHL playoff game. But the swings and ups and downs of a 5 hour, bo5 that comes down to a team fight at 45 minutes - it' doesn't get much more edge of your seat.
LEC playoffs were so exciting and wild that watching LCS after feels like going to a little league game after watching the world series. If VIT or XL were in NA, they would probably be in the finals vs TL. As an NA player/fan it's sad to see how boring and shit the LCS has become, i mostly just watch LEC now cause it's a way more enjoyable experience. You got funnier content, casters and players on top of better production, less ads and sponsored in game moments (STATEFARM NEIgHBOURHOOD WATCH). I think the LCS needs some spring cleaning honestly at this point, even with all their efforts this split (it's better sure) the broadcast still feels so stale and boring. Also the broadcast team is like 30+ years on average, so maybe they could bring in some kind of new and young talent to breathe a breath of fresh air to the scene?
I wouldn't watch either LEC looks awful as well. LCK or LPL. LEC just figured out that ahri was an S tier mid pick this late into playoffs. They are giga doomed for MSI considering Rogue could throw a 3.5k gold lead in 10mins.
@@Gurpreet-sv5zg I mean sure obviously LCK and LPL are the best leagues but as a western fan, it's kinda hard waking up in the middle of the night for LCK/LPL. I'm also more interested in western teams and players in general so I'd rather watch LEC/LCS personally. The west knew Ahri was strong and tried it out, but it only really looks S tier when caps rookie and faker play it lol.
@@rowan2828 No you can see match history and picks by patch to see lcs and LEC ignored ahri. It wasn't until they dropped their mediocre orianna and yasuo pick that LEC drafted ahri.
Idk if players realize that this will affect them, the sooner fans loose faith in their teams and feel like the teams are not putting in the work , the sooner viewership dies and the less viable it becomes to support the region. Their salaries get hit , their careers cut short. If there's anything that can be considered "Straw that broke the camel's back" it's the "attitude", your region can be shit , your training environment can be shit , you can have ego and poor international performance. But if you don't bother to even show the ATTITUDE , even as a fake front. Then there's no anchor by which fans can justify your actions and defend you. I remember when double-lift said that regular split doesn't matter, it doesn't matter if he's right or wrong, his attitude stinked, same goes whenever all pro's wanted to stop playing games. Why would you help someone who doesn't show the determined attitude. If you don't even have the fighting attitude, what do you have?
At this point, it's an ego issue that most high elo players won't succumb to, even though the fans and critics are screaming this at the top of the mountain. It doesn't matter what Riot does at this point, NA players don't have anymore excuses
@@Randomvideowatcher-g7m As I said I don't expect players NOT to have an ego. If you're better than 99.9% you better have an ego. It's when you have an ego and nothing to show for it compared to other players and regions.
No LPL at MSI would be rough... Riot will do their absolute best to push the narrative that ''MSI still matters'', but it won't. Without LPL there's no point to have MSI.
@@maxedoutbeing3239 it's towards the later half of the episode. LPL might not attend MSI because Asia Games are more important and their entire schedule will shift
@@maxedoutbeing3239 MSI is in Korea. Chinese players that go to Korea have to quarantine for 4 weeks I think to go back to China. LPL season starts earlier and is condensed into like 4 weeks because Asia Games are (basically olympics of esports) happening. Which means the team that goes to MSI will miss the entirety of the summer split because they'll be in quarantine for almost the entire split, which doesn't help their odds to qualifying for Worlds a whole lot. So it's very likely that the #1 seed from LPL (or any LPL team) will choose not to go to MSI.
Ive always stated NA ping is an excuse not to have to adress the things they can actually affect themselves. That being said damnit Thorin giving some MF's 3rd degree burns here, harsh but all too damn true though. Edit: NA's finest mentality is imported and while Core truly tries its a sad state where one player is tryharding for a whole region.
Is champions queue not just the precursor to splitting NA into west and east coast servers? I feel like that’s where this is leading. The more people they allow into champions queue the more it will basically just become a west coast server. And then at that point there will be less people in regular solo queue and they might as well just dissolve champions queue in exchange for a west coast server that way they still have the low ping, and then let the “old” server just be the east coast server since it’s hosted in Chicago.
I'm so happy thorin brought up agatha christie at around 3:03:00 that's what i love about her books as well. If you're clever and follow along well you can predict who the killer is and with what reasons a few pages (say 30) before the detective of the book does the reveal. Sadly she doesn't do it in each of her books and other detective novels are ruined now for me. But still agatha christie is pretty great!
The thing that bothers me about Upset is that he seems to care alot about how he looks. You will very rarily see him take damage / die in order to get the maximum damage out, which is a very important skill to have in order to be a S+ Tier ADC. With that in mind, it is no surprise that he had the least deaths of any LEC player ever in the regular season. In their wins, he is very good to be played through, but in their losses you will very often see him go 2/0/4 or something like that. If you want the quintessence of that, watch his playoffs games on poke Xayah. He did alot of damage, but most often it was insignificant poke. Which is ironic, because that's exactly what the fans (and himself) always portrayed Rekkles to be (which I didn't agree with).
for me monty had a point started to watch ogn/lck in spring 2012 and i really liked monty and doa as casters i watch all the matches of lck to 2016-2017 rise and falls players and teams exacting bo5
Since Monte mentioned that the TL Logo has nothing to do with "Liquid", here's my take: The Horse represents Poseidon, Greek God of the Seas (commonly associated with Horses) which vaguely connects to "Liquid" I guess... But yeah not the most obvious connection (I personally like it but that's subjective)
2:22:00 I typically struggle to watch even most of the round robbin matches, and if I miss something it's not a big deal, but if I miss just one match in a tournament it feels liek the whole purpose of watching is anything in taht bracket is gone. Like for worlds this year, I only watched the DK side of the tournament, and the MAD lions and some rogue games in groups. No play-ins. Basically, low priority on round robbin even for teams I support, high priority on tournaments even for teams I don't care alot about, on top of taht, tournaments make me care about mroe teams because I feel like I have to watch them. I think more tournament style international comtetition in league would be great.
3:04:00 only agatha christie i ever read the killer was someone that "off-screen" convinced the doctor to say that he was dead and killed everyone. never tried anyother because was the stupidiest mistery book i ever read.
yho thorin Leeds United actually back in the prem. But yes i think the ammount of clubs that go down from the prem that go bankrupt is very high. But the teams that do go up come with fans and history too
Poor senna catching strays.. I’m pretty sure the reason senna tk stopped getting picked globally is that it was disabled because of a glitch that just got fixed (where senna w would make everyone totally invisible if she got eaten while casting it). So senna tk might be viable who really knows.
Idk why Thorin is trying to make FNATIC only being able to play through bot as a strength to Upset. Sounds like a weakness to me, if he can’t really play weak side because he’s a resource heavy laner, doesn’t that make counter play against him easier? Also you can’t say “I’m too good to have won the league” and then not even make it to the final. It sounds wild and egotistical and obviously gonna put a target on you
Tbh all LEC teams play through bot for the most part because they don't have good top laners in the league. It's pretty much sack top and play for bot.
@@Gurpreet-sv5zg But he didn't play a tank every series. And not for most of the regular season either. I think they were just looking to enable caps with the tank picks
Betting companies don't create their own odds. They just use odds provided by the betting exchange markets and give worse odds so that they siphon off a margin. So basically they let the 'market' decide the price because the prices on betting exchanges are created through balancing the supply and demand for a bet.
I mean it's just a mentality gap. I can bitch because I actually put in 11-14 hour workdays for my job. I get mad triggered when you are making hand over fist cash to be the best to just coast. Instead, the mentality of most NA players is "this is a 9-5 job" with INSANE time off. If you miss playoffs and worlds THAT IS A TON OF TIME OFF. So what's the issue playing 12-14 hours during the season? What's the issue with playing every day on Champion's queue if you are TSM or CLG or the other bottom teams knocked out of the playoffs? Kids in Korea/China can make challenger doing school and playing amateur. Meanwhile, our pros can barely play 3 solo queue games after scrims. The reason NA was good in the early seasons WAS BECAUSE the pros loved to play the game. Idk I'm tired of the same excuses year after year with zero change and when Riot gives the pros what they want they STILL don't take advantage of it. So just remove the import rule and just import all the talent; maybe then it would put a fire on most of these players' asses.
Russell Wilson used to always say “Go Hawks” instead of “Let’s ride” when he was on the Seahawks, it just wasn’t cringe on the Seahawks cuz it doesn’t sound terrible 😂😂
Ok I have to hate on thorin for this take, it’s not a fans job to give up everything to be the best, it’s our job to hold the people we are fans of accountable, I didn’t go pro because I made different choices kids and a family are more important to me than money and fame, I’ll agree that we have a terrible work ethic and are riddled with entitlement but that does not mean we are not allowed to bitch about our athletes that we are fans of not putting what is expected of them to be the best. There’s a reason Jordan, Gretzky, Tyson became so popular because they had the Asians work ethic and all we fans want is people in NA willing to put in that much hard work and sacrifice. I think thorin forgets that if we stop watching there is no LCS, if the players don’t entertain us and live up to what we except you lose the eyes that make you money. And if you keep attacking the fans you’ll also lose the eyeballs.
OK so I take your point, but I'm not sure it is truly an answer to Thorin's. He is essentially saying that fans who are embedded within a certain culture are standing within that same culture when they criticise the players who come from their country or the organisations that operate there too. For an NA fan to say 'they don't work like Koreans' is true, but for a fan to expect players to transcend their very own culture and the culture of the orgs is unrealistic, and after all, culture is generated both from the top down AND the ground up.
@@samueltunnicliffe7012 yeah, I think the biggest problem in this is actually youth, the 10-25 year olds whom were told by tv, parents, and teachers whom taught their kids that as long as you dream hard enough you can do anything but didn’t teach them they also needed to work harder than everyone else attempting the same goal. You can see it in most of the most talented people in the world, be music, sports, acting, these people were pushed until they broke or much more sadly they had people in their lives who broke them. Bjerg is a good example of this, he had a harder time than most and poured more of himself into league as a side effect
@@dragonplayz6606 that was a great msi I am a TL fan the feeling was epic, I feel like it’s forgotten and TL gets no credit for it, I don’t even think g2 gets talked about much for winning msi. They get credit for being the best ever western team
@@rockdalianninja1056 yeah it’s crazy, esports fans have so much mental illnesses, that they can’t even do a basic thing and give credit where it’s due. It just makes you a better human. Others might do bad things but it’s always good for you to give credit.
Im gonna say this right now: the idea that NA players are lazy because they are American is farcical. They are playing in Santa Monica about 20 minutes from the birthplace of the Mamba Mentality. NA players are M E N T A L Y W E A K because the *kinds* of people who play video games in NA is very different from EU, China, & especially Korea. Think for a second what are the differences between a NA pro, an elite member of a competitive endeavor, & a pro football player. Compare this to a pro Korean soccer player & a pro Korean LoL player. The shit is not equal, stop telling me the problem is NA, start talking about the inherent weakness of ‘gamer culture’ on this continent.
Men of culture! Monster is so good. Still remember the scene about taste of sugar, also Agatha Christie even thorin naming David Suchet as best Poirot. Man that's some good stuff. But my guilty pleasure is One Piece. I think it's for kids mostly, but there are some deep themes and it's not throwaway action like many animes. Although the artstyle is very goofy it's got some deep philosophical takes for sure.
3:12:00 i started watching league in late summer 2020 (shortly before worlds) and i have never played it before and never played it since. And sure i watched a lot, but at this point i have a better understanding than most of my friends who do play league. Imo when you start watching you have absolutely 0 clue whats going on, but a few months in you already understand a lot. While when i watch csgo i cant follow the action at all since i just dont know the maps. I somewhat can see what the guns do, but its basically impossible to know whats waiting for me behind the next corner. In league i see what most abilities do and if i really want to know i can just look it up. And sure idk what the stats of items are or every passive ability of items, but its just not relevant. I know shieldbow gives a shield and damage and is a mythic and thats enough to know. League is more complicated the more you know than cs, but atleast in my opinnion its not as hard to follow since you dont get confused by camera swapa and peeks etc
I don't know how much Attack on Titan you've watched Monty, but Attack on Titan is very good and not just some Childish anime. It subverts those Tropes as well as those others you mentioned
For the last three times, I have seen Thorin make predictions and evaluation of different situations. Soo far he has been always partially or completely wrong.
I don’t think a bracket recent is a good idea but I feel like you can do a Bo7 with giving the team coming from upper bracket an extra win. It’s a slight advantage and at most takes one extra game
Thorin rant on Americans was perfect and so true.. is it a perfect place? absolutely not.. its still a better place to live then the majority of other places on the planet
The whole Leeds United point is kind of invalidated by the fact that Leeds are back in the Premier League... Kind of shit, but they're back and that's a cool storyline.
While it is nice they are back, they are nowhere close to the levels they were back in the day. If there was a "Top 6" back in the day, they'd be in it in terms of club popularity & significance. Massive club through the 60-mid 70s and still very competitive in the 90s. Even into the early 2000s, they were Champions League worthy (even made a semi in 2001) yet relegated by 2004 and took 16 years just to make it back to the EPL mid table. It's never a guarantee that a team/org can build back up after crashing down through so much mismanagement. Far more failures than there are successes. So a TSM-Leeds comparison on how bad things can get through serial mismanagement isn't too farfetched.
2:40:18 I think that it would be really spineless of the LPL. I get maybe it's about the chinese gouvernmetn, but I think it's really cringe. And if the LPL aren't even going to care about their own competative integrity, then fuck them. Give GenG a spot, make the chinese government let korea have the glory of winning MSI if the LPL aren't even going to try.
i liked the relegation take because its more interesting to me ... its not nessesarly good for the elague or orgs i dotn give ahsit about the business and money side it s about competetive integrity
Modern tragedy that riot doesnt care about making the best product. It seems as though their company philosophy is just "good enough, as long as the fans eat it up like the little pigs they are who cares if it could be better"
@@htoras_ It's literally not for kids. It isn't a master piece by any means, but if you think it's for kids you clearly haven't read or watched it. Or if you have you're rather oblivious to what you see.
I disagree with the culture of American not wanting to put in the work the issue is usually the competition for places is so great be it in the nfl,nba or even getting into the best colleague's that you have to sweat your balls off. The reason the player don't put in the work is the competition for places is not they. Even sumday a Korean as soon he had other top laner to compete with suddenly playing at very high levels. If he slacked off, then a NA who pro who you need to have. If they was someone coming for they place, i think they would be more work put in
I think the stigma of "Americans are lazy" really just comes from NA LCS. Americans on average in the real world work longer hours and take less vacation days than their European counterparts (in large part because of the power the business lobbies have in the US and the propaganda against unions). But NA LCS has earned its reputation for a reason.
@@nuraby_9228 100% as a European who does not have half as good labour laws as my European counterparts. I can tell you workers in the states are being fucked but that the price of business 👀 they say
Dylan is such a good guest. Love getting insights like at 1:17:33. Jankos really is the GOAT
Great episode! Really nice insight from Dylan who didn't have to hide information since the split is over so a lot of behind the scene stuff that is usually not talked about and not just some fluff answers that other coaches/players give while they are still playing during the season.
Dylan Falco seems like a smart and very good person
The razor cake just made my day
I really really want you guys to get fredy122 (or even SeeEl) on the show to talk about the Rogue side of their inferior drafts this final and the choking narrative
Unfortunately he doesn't do interviews
@@W0Rd0n32sTre3T yes that's true bit i'd be happy with SeeEl aswell
@@W0Rd0n32sTre3T Any idea why?
I don’t even think Rogue choke now, they are just bad. I think rogue before just tried to play perfectly and there’s strengths and negatives with that so if you get caught out, there’s a huge mental disadvantage, to anyone who tries to be perfect at least, but now they can’t even do that, malrang got gapped with inspired-esque counter jungles and it was over.
@@dragonplayz6606 it’s hard cuz game 3 is for sure a choke because they should won easily and even g2 staff agree
Thanks for posting now as oppossed to a couple hours later, much better for Australia time zone
hes absolutely right...FNC fans are really without words concerning their own team. YOu cant even compare that remotely with G2 fans. When G2 was failing last year...it was the FNC FANS that actually insulted caps and jankos and Rekkles. While the G2 fans were just trying to take pressure of their team. It feels like FNC fans are the exact opposite of this. Its like fans from a german football team...and Manchester united. (FNC obviously being Manchaster united....)
I do agree FNC fans will do everything to make G2 look like bad team even if they win
@@alexandernaydenov7539 "even if they win" so true haha after g2 beat them all 3-0 they came out to say that it wasn't meritorious because they don't "know what happened" to upset and hily, the same with Rogue xD
Is Monte eating yet another cupcake with razers in it?
KT speciality
Glad to see Monte shout out Monster, I adore pretty much all of Naoki Urasawa's works, and while Monster is an absolute 10/10 anime for me, more modern anime viewers probably will be a bit bored on the pacing of the animation especially since it's older. If you don't watch Monster, you should definitely read it, it's the best way to enjoy his story and art. That and 20/21st Century Boys for sure, if not his entire catalogue.
For me Monster was more frustrating. Not only are there episodes where nothing happens except that the already established character traits are beaten over your head repeatedly. But the MC was just irritating to watch.
SPOILERS BELOW
His repeated inaction and inability of taking action. From the point onwards where he first had the ability to end it all he becomes pretty much directly responsible for everything that happens afterwards. Yet he cannot do it again and again. But he got to preserve is precious morals at the cost of everyone else. Not to mention the ending is plain stupid where they leave the guy completely unguarded in a regular hospital so he just leaves.
Monster was okay. I liked it well enough but I too found the ending a little unsatisfying and the pace a little slow. I guess the villain was too empty and enigmatic for my taste. It left too much to the imagination for me.
I said the same thing live in twitch chat lol. I loved monster, but nobody i know has seen it.
First 30min about LCS 😐 then the banger starts
Lol. G2 is gonna get gapped by even TL if they go so pipe it down bud.
@@tommy2364 in a world where G2 players have no hands, play on 200 ping and it might take TL 50min to beat them
It's good, ez money via esportsbet
Dylan Falco, NA’s best import to EU
Prolly, Dylan, Drakos. There's been a few
I wish worlds had like one big group where everyone plays each other once, then they use this ranking to seed everyone (or just top 8) into a double elimination bracket. I don't know if this would be significantly more expensive to run but I think it would be a lot more interesting to watch than the current format (you see every team play each other) and then the playoffs would be wild!
It's 120 games vs 48. I'd assume you'd be increasingly more likely to see 4 KR and 4 CN playoff brackets. Maybe 2 teams sneak in that aren't from those regions
There's also the issue of who wants to watch pain gaming vs damwon, followed by TOP vs peace eSports, even FNC vs DFM wouldn't be an amazing match to watch.
This would be fine if regions sent only 2 teams. And the minor regions got 1. A round robin would be fun, with a competition based win rate scoring method to seed them. Similar to MTG Swiss format.
Riot said shit last year aboutthe tournament being a lame duck... THEY BETTER MAKE FORMAT CHANGES THIS YEAR!
Double elimination in LoL sucks, make no mistake about it.
Being a first seed is worthless.
Absolute banger of an episode.
They definitely didn’t watched the podcast, Doublelift did talked about LS coaching situation.
I haven’t either what did he say about it. From what I got c9 basically said ls isn’t a normal coach so they just fired him
Thorin's rant about player privilege on the way to the professional scene was fire
The thumbnail for this video might be Monte's greatest picture.
It would be amazing if at Worlds this year we have KR and CN players with more Champions Queue games than most NA pros
What a banger thumbnail
2:52:50 slightly awkward reference point. Leeds chilling back in Premier league now after a long time in the wilderness.
Sunderland a good example though. Bit closer to home maybe for Thorin!
Yeah Sunderland are a current example where as Leeds are back.
Thorins comment about the whole "working smarter not harder" thing is fucking brilliant and so true. That clip should be played to every team at their house before they step into their team meetings and scrims.
i feel bad for people who still think monte & thorin have good takes ever.
@@sonnyankau9239 it's this weird cult following thing they have goin on - similar to C9 no matter how much shit that org does or is.
2:14:55 Another thing that everyone severely underestimates is the availability of high-quality vods. I got into LEC by scanning game summaries for interesting picks. I used to be a TSM (more of a Bjerg) fanboy early on, but when I scanned places for off meta picks I found og UoL. They'd always be playing something fun or creative - all of a sudden I wasn't even scanning the vods, I was just watching the replays. I became a fan. Then that team became meta hogs and G2 appeared with Caps/Perkz and they were by far the funnest team I have ever watched play. Now I exclusively watch LEC, usually tuning in to entire games but mostly rewatching the stream after it's done (able to skip low points, pauses, commentary, or games I don't want to watch). That is super unique to e-sports.
And I would absolutely LOVE a different worlds system. I would rewatch a series in a lower bracket if I missed it and it was epic. I even went back and watched the bo5 between G2 and SKT. Like... for me, I watch NHL and basketball (mostly NHL) and not a lot comes close to a NHL playoff game. But the swings and ups and downs of a 5 hour, bo5 that comes down to a team fight at 45 minutes - it' doesn't get much more edge of your seat.
3:02:17 Critique on anime tropes
Great episode, really enjoyed Dylan Falco.
LEC playoffs were so exciting and wild that watching LCS after feels like going to a little league game after watching the world series. If VIT or XL were in NA, they would probably be in the finals vs TL. As an NA player/fan it's sad to see how boring and shit the LCS has become, i mostly just watch LEC now cause it's a way more enjoyable experience. You got funnier content, casters and players on top of better production, less ads and sponsored in game moments (STATEFARM NEIgHBOURHOOD WATCH). I think the LCS needs some spring cleaning honestly at this point, even with all their efforts this split (it's better sure) the broadcast still feels so stale and boring. Also the broadcast team is like 30+ years on average, so maybe they could bring in some kind of new and young talent to breathe a breath of fresh air to the scene?
I wouldn't watch either LEC looks awful as well. LCK or LPL. LEC just figured out that ahri was an S tier mid pick this late into playoffs. They are giga doomed for MSI considering Rogue could throw a 3.5k gold lead in 10mins.
@@Gurpreet-sv5zg I mean sure obviously LCK and LPL are the best leagues but as a western fan, it's kinda hard waking up in the middle of the night for LCK/LPL. I'm also more interested in western teams and players in general so I'd rather watch LEC/LCS personally. The west knew Ahri was strong and tried it out, but it only really looks S tier when caps rookie and faker play it lol.
@@Gurpreet-sv5zg if you think LEC production is awful youre ill
@@rowan2828 No you can see match history and picks by patch to see lcs and LEC ignored ahri. It wasn't until they dropped their mediocre orianna and yasuo pick that LEC drafted ahri.
@@aspiwri664 I didnt talk about production you on something?
I'm impressed you talked about C9 vs GG for ten minutes. We learned nothing from this series because of how bad GG played.
That Mass effect explanation was so on point also another banger episode
Idk if players realize that this will affect them, the sooner fans loose faith in their teams and feel like the teams are not putting in the work , the sooner viewership dies and the less viable it becomes to support the region. Their salaries get hit , their careers cut short.
If there's anything that can be considered "Straw that broke the camel's back" it's the "attitude", your region can be shit , your training environment can be shit , you can have ego and poor international performance.
But if you don't bother to even show the ATTITUDE , even as a fake front. Then there's no anchor by which fans can justify your actions and defend you.
I remember when double-lift said that regular split doesn't matter, it doesn't matter if he's right or wrong, his attitude stinked, same goes whenever all pro's wanted to stop playing games.
Why would you help someone who doesn't show the determined attitude. If you don't even have the fighting attitude, what do you have?
At this point, it's an ego issue that most high elo players won't succumb to, even though the fans and critics are screaming this at the top of the mountain. It doesn't matter what Riot does at this point, NA players don't have anymore excuses
@@Randomvideowatcher-g7m As I said I don't expect players NOT to have an ego. If you're better than 99.9% you better have an ego.
It's when you have an ego and nothing to show for it compared to other players and regions.
Didnt play the game for years but still watches g2 games. No one else really. So I understand people who just tune in for their team.
Hearing that Monte liked Monster was nice :)
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3:09:53 Excuse me sir, Deathnote was over in 27 episodes, the rest after THAT was a very very drawn out epilogue.
Incredible transition out of an opening sponsorship damn
great episode
so much to unpack
No LPL at MSI would be rough... Riot will do their absolute best to push the narrative that ''MSI still matters'', but it won't. Without LPL there's no point to have MSI.
Am I missing something?
@@maxedoutbeing3239 it's towards the later half of the episode. LPL might not attend MSI because Asia Games are more important and their entire schedule will shift
@@qontroL that literally makes no sense. Can u explain it in shorter terms
@@maxedoutbeing3239 MSI is in Korea. Chinese players that go to Korea have to quarantine for 4 weeks I think to go back to China. LPL season starts earlier and is condensed into like 4 weeks because Asia Games are (basically olympics of esports) happening. Which means the team that goes to MSI will miss the entirety of the summer split because they'll be in quarantine for almost the entire split, which doesn't help their odds to qualifying for Worlds a whole lot. So it's very likely that the #1 seed from LPL (or any LPL team) will choose not to go to MSI.
@@qontroL thanks. I hope it won't turn out as you mentioned
Dylan is just a good bean. I want to get him a mug of home-made soup and a blanket and tell him to get some rest
Ive always stated NA ping is an excuse not to have to adress the things they can actually affect themselves. That being said damnit Thorin giving some MF's 3rd degree burns here, harsh but all too damn true though.
Edit: NA's finest mentality is imported and while Core truly tries its a sad state where one player is tryharding for a whole region.
Loved the Agatha Christie plug. She truly mastered her craft. I've been reading Hercule Poirot since I was in middle school.
I know Monte is joking at 51:10 but kr stream used to be 480p for years and many people didn't watch it for that reason.
Isnt team liquid's logo in reference to greek mythology? Horses were supposedly made out of water by Poseidon.
Is champions queue not just the precursor to splitting NA into west and east coast servers? I feel like that’s where this is leading.
The more people they allow into champions queue the more it will basically just become a west coast server. And then at that point there will be less people in regular solo queue and they might as well just dissolve champions queue in exchange for a west coast server that way they still have the low ping, and then let the “old” server just be the east coast server since it’s hosted in Chicago.
I have to admit, after the reverse sweep, I had plenty of this razorcake.
I really liked work of Dylan with Fnatic. Good decision by G2.
I'm so happy thorin brought up agatha christie at around 3:03:00 that's what i love about her books as well. If you're clever and follow along well you can predict who the killer is and with what reasons a few pages (say 30) before the detective of the book does the reveal. Sadly she doesn't do it in each of her books and other detective novels are ruined now for me. But still agatha christie is pretty great!
The thing that bothers me about Upset is that he seems to care alot about how he looks. You will very rarily see him take damage / die in order to get the maximum damage out, which is a very important skill to have in order to be a S+ Tier ADC. With that in mind, it is no surprise that he had the least deaths of any LEC player ever in the regular season. In their wins, he is very good to be played through, but in their losses you will very often see him go 2/0/4 or something like that. If you want the quintessence of that, watch his playoffs games on poke Xayah. He did alot of damage, but most often it was insignificant poke.
Which is ironic, because that's exactly what the fans (and himself) always portrayed Rekkles to be (which I didn't agree with).
for me monty had a point started to watch ogn/lck in spring 2012 and i really liked monty and doa as casters i watch all the matches of lck to 2016-2017 rise and falls players and teams exacting bo5
Since Monte mentioned that the TL Logo has nothing to do with "Liquid", here's my take:
The Horse represents Poseidon, Greek God of the Seas (commonly associated with Horses) which vaguely connects to "Liquid" I guess... But yeah not the most obvious connection (I personally like it but that's subjective)
2:22:00 I typically struggle to watch even most of the round robbin matches, and if I miss something it's not a big deal, but if I miss just one match in a tournament it feels liek the whole purpose of watching is anything in taht bracket is gone. Like for worlds this year, I only watched the DK side of the tournament, and the MAD lions and some rogue games in groups. No play-ins. Basically, low priority on round robbin even for teams I support, high priority on tournaments even for teams I don't care alot about, on top of taht, tournaments make me care about mroe teams because I feel like I have to watch them. I think more tournament style international comtetition in league would be great.
3:04:00 only agatha christie i ever read the killer was someone that "off-screen" convinced the doctor to say that he was dead and killed everyone. never tried anyother because was the stupidiest mistery book i ever read.
yho thorin Leeds United actually back in the prem. But yes i think the ammount of clubs that go down from the prem that go bankrupt is very high. But the teams that do go up come with fans and history too
Poor senna catching strays.. I’m pretty sure the reason senna tk stopped getting picked globally is that it was disabled because of a glitch that just got fixed (where senna w would make everyone totally invisible if she got eaten while casting it). So senna tk might be viable who really knows.
Shes definitely viable and versatile too
That Froskurinn joke was fucking fire xD
We have to go Vayne Dylan
Idk why Thorin is trying to make FNATIC only being able to play through bot as a strength to Upset. Sounds like a weakness to me, if he can’t really play weak side because he’s a resource heavy laner, doesn’t that make counter play against him easier?
Also you can’t say “I’m too good to have won the league” and then not even make it to the final. It sounds wild and egotistical and obviously gonna put a target on you
Tbh all LEC teams play through bot for the most part because they don't have good top laners in the league. It's pretty much sack top and play for bot.
@@Gurpreet-sv5zg G2 didn't though
@@oludipebolusere6085 Broken brain on a tank says a lot. They got all the drakes for a reason.
@@Gurpreet-sv5zg But he didn't play a tank every series. And not for most of the regular season either. I think they were just looking to enable caps with the tank picks
Betting companies don't create their own odds. They just use odds provided by the betting exchange markets and give worse odds so that they siphon off a margin. So basically they let the 'market' decide the price because the prices on betting exchanges are created through balancing the supply and demand for a bet.
Thorin calling out David Suchet just gives me good vibes
I mean it's just a mentality gap. I can bitch because I actually put in 11-14 hour workdays for my job. I get mad triggered when you are making hand over fist cash to be the best to just coast. Instead, the mentality of most NA players is "this is a 9-5 job" with INSANE time off. If you miss playoffs and worlds THAT IS A TON OF TIME OFF. So what's the issue playing 12-14 hours during the season? What's the issue with playing every day on Champion's queue if you are TSM or CLG or the other bottom teams knocked out of the playoffs? Kids in Korea/China can make challenger doing school and playing amateur. Meanwhile, our pros can barely play 3 solo queue games after scrims. The reason NA was good in the early seasons WAS BECAUSE the pros loved to play the game. Idk I'm tired of the same excuses year after year with zero change and when Riot gives the pros what they want they STILL don't take advantage of it. So just remove the import rule and just import all the talent; maybe then it would put a fire on most of these players' asses.
Something not being made for you or targeted towards a certain audience doesn’t make it bad. Something can be good and not your cup of tea.
Thorin is such an Upset fanboy
Re: Monte, I absolutely stopped watching Korean broadcasts when you left.
Russell Wilson used to always say “Go Hawks” instead of “Let’s ride” when he was on the Seahawks, it just wasn’t cringe on the Seahawks cuz it doesn’t sound terrible 😂😂
Ok I have to hate on thorin for this take, it’s not a fans job to give up everything to be the best, it’s our job to hold the people we are fans of accountable, I didn’t go pro because I made different choices kids and a family are more important to me than money and fame, I’ll agree that we have a terrible work ethic and are riddled with entitlement but that does not mean we are not allowed to bitch about our athletes that we are fans of not putting what is expected of them to be the best. There’s a reason Jordan, Gretzky, Tyson became so popular because they had the Asians work ethic and all we fans want is people in NA willing to put in that much hard work and sacrifice. I think thorin forgets that if we stop watching there is no LCS, if the players don’t entertain us and live up to what we except you lose the eyes that make you money. And if you keep attacking the fans you’ll also lose the eyeballs.
OK so I take your point, but I'm not sure it is truly an answer to Thorin's. He is essentially saying that fans who are embedded within a certain culture are standing within that same culture when they criticise the players who come from their country or the organisations that operate there too. For an NA fan to say 'they don't work like Koreans' is true, but for a fan to expect players to transcend their very own culture and the culture of the orgs is unrealistic, and after all, culture is generated both from the top down AND the ground up.
@@samueltunnicliffe7012 yeah, I think the biggest problem in this is actually youth, the 10-25 year olds whom were told by tv, parents, and teachers whom taught their kids that as long as you dream hard enough you can do anything but didn’t teach them they also needed to work harder than everyone else attempting the same goal. You can see it in most of the most talented people in the world, be music, sports, acting, these people were pushed until they broke or much more sadly they had people in their lives who broke them. Bjerg is a good example of this, he had a harder time than most and poured more of himself into league as a side effect
Imagine being asia and losing to NA and Eu who don’t even practice that much in 2019 🤣
@@dragonplayz6606 that was a great msi I am a TL fan the feeling was epic, I feel like it’s forgotten and TL gets no credit for it, I don’t even think g2 gets talked about much for winning msi. They get credit for being the best ever western team
@@rockdalianninja1056 yeah it’s crazy, esports fans have so much mental illnesses, that they can’t even do a basic thing and give credit where it’s due. It just makes you a better human. Others might do bad things but it’s always good for you to give credit.
one piece takes 1000 episodes to build a giant world with a lot of detail, it's fucking amazing mate (the manga I mean, fuck the anime)
Im gonna say this right now: the idea that NA players are lazy because they are American is farcical. They are playing in Santa Monica about 20 minutes from the birthplace of the Mamba Mentality. NA players are M E N T A L Y W E A K because the *kinds* of people who play video games in NA is very different from EU, China, & especially Korea. Think for a second what are the differences between a NA pro, an elite member of a competitive endeavor, & a pro football player. Compare this to a pro Korean soccer player & a pro Korean LoL player. The shit is not equal, stop telling me the problem is NA, start talking about the inherent weakness of ‘gamer culture’ on this continent.
Men of culture! Monster is so good. Still remember the scene about taste of sugar, also Agatha Christie even thorin naming David Suchet as best Poirot. Man that's some good stuff. But my guilty pleasure is One Piece. I think it's for kids mostly, but there are some deep themes and it's not throwaway action like many animes. Although the artstyle is very goofy it's got some deep philosophical takes for sure.
Badically the people saying they used to hate Thorin before but now they love him were TSM fans and then they grew up
3:12:00 i started watching league in late summer 2020 (shortly before worlds) and i have never played it before and never played it since. And sure i watched a lot, but at this point i have a better understanding than most of my friends who do play league. Imo when you start watching you have absolutely 0 clue whats going on, but a few months in you already understand a lot. While when i watch csgo i cant follow the action at all since i just dont know the maps. I somewhat can see what the guns do, but its basically impossible to know whats waiting for me behind the next corner. In league i see what most abilities do and if i really want to know i can just look it up. And sure idk what the stats of items are or every passive ability of items, but its just not relevant. I know shieldbow gives a shield and damage and is a mythic and thats enough to know. League is more complicated the more you know than cs, but atleast in my opinnion its not as hard to follow since you dont get confused by camera swapa and peeks etc
Monster is a fucking great anime
Not a word on targamas participation to the team :(
Its so funny to see dylan quietly in his chair while Thorin is screaming and ranting about fnc fans and stuff xDDD
Someone please have Monte read Vagabond
I’m just skipping the LCS segments at this point.
haha that razor cake bit
Senna with Kraken/Guinsoos as ADC or Locket as support is actually busted though
Calling Leeds "nobodies" after they just finished in the top half of the prem last season is a bit ignorant tbf and not even a leeds fan
David Suchet is mad mega
Thank God for Thorins rant America is doomed directly because of this mentality lol.
dont forget forget the dubble shen
I don't know how much Attack on Titan you've watched Monty, but Attack on Titan is very good and not just some Childish anime. It subverts those Tropes as well as those others you mentioned
I love these two fellas. I want deserve all the skrilla 🤑 but I really don't like betting
Someone singe maggi felix he is so good like litteraly the only reason he isn't in lec anymore is because he had to play on astralis.
So glad they called out Joe Marsh
For the last three times, I have seen Thorin make predictions and evaluation of different situations. Soo far he has been always partially or completely wrong.
I don’t think a bracket recent is a good idea but I feel like you can do a Bo7 with giving the team coming from upper bracket an extra win. It’s a slight advantage and at most takes one extra game
I go by Monte's old saying for NA. Just don't tell me your goal is winning worlds and expect me to believe it.
Thorin rant on Americans was perfect and so true.. is it a perfect place? absolutely not.. its still a better place to live then the majority of other places on the planet
lmfao how NA is only a prop for advertising crypto betting, it really is fitting
The whole Leeds United point is kind of invalidated by the fact that Leeds are back in the Premier League... Kind of shit, but they're back and that's a cool storyline.
While it is nice they are back, they are nowhere close to the levels they were back in the day. If there was a "Top 6" back in the day, they'd be in it in terms of club popularity & significance. Massive club through the 60-mid 70s and still very competitive in the 90s. Even into the early 2000s, they were Champions League worthy (even made a semi in 2001) yet relegated by 2004 and took 16 years just to make it back to the EPL mid table.
It's never a guarantee that a team/org can build back up after crashing down through so much mismanagement. Far more failures than there are successes. So a TSM-Leeds comparison on how bad things can get through serial mismanagement isn't too farfetched.
2:40:18 I think that it would be really spineless of the LPL. I get maybe it's about the chinese gouvernmetn, but I think it's really cringe. And if the LPL aren't even going to care about their own competative integrity, then fuck them. Give GenG a spot, make the chinese government let korea have the glory of winning MSI if the LPL aren't even going to try.
Peak razor cake joke
PLAY ANIVIA CAPS!! A love letter to great EU mids like froggen and take down T1.
Leeds is back!!
i liked the relegation take because its more interesting to me ... its not nessesarly good for the elague or orgs i dotn give ahsit about the business and money side it s about competetive integrity
Esports fandom is bullshit anyways nobody is fan of a team most ppl root for players
ontop of that the moment there is a good random e-sports team in the league instant fans
Modern tragedy that riot doesnt care about making the best product. It seems as though their company philosophy is just "good enough, as long as the fans eat it up like the little pigs they are who cares if it could be better"
One Piece has a lot of mature themes. It's actually a Master Piece. Read the manga, you won't regret it
@@htoras_ It's literally not for kids. It isn't a master piece by any means, but if you think it's for kids you clearly haven't read or watched it. Or if you have you're rather oblivious to what you see.
You don't casually tell somebody to watch a million episode show
Even reading it is gonna take forever
It's too bad they had to explain that it was a "razor cake" lmao.
Finally
After watching G2 coms from semi/finals I think he should be valued higher. What a Player.
It takes the same amount of TSM fans to realise something obvious as it takes potatoes to start a jet plane.
golden guardians were so terrible, it's like they were scripted to play the role of a losing team
I disagree with the culture of American not wanting to put in the work the issue is usually the competition for places is so great be it in the nfl,nba or even getting into the best colleague's that you have to sweat your balls off. The reason the player don't put in the work is the competition for places is not they. Even sumday a Korean as soon he had other top laner to compete with suddenly playing at very high levels. If he slacked off, then a NA who pro who you need to have. If they was someone coming for they place, i think they would be more work put in
I think the stigma of "Americans are lazy" really just comes from NA LCS. Americans on average in the real world work longer hours and take less vacation days than their European counterparts (in large part because of the power the business lobbies have in the US and the propaganda against unions). But NA LCS has earned its reputation for a reason.
@@nuraby_9228 100% as a European who does not have half as good labour laws as my European counterparts. I can tell you workers in the states are being fucked but that the price of business 👀 they say