In all fairness to Solaris, they never actually defeated it, they overwrote its formation. Solaris basically had to have its wifi severed to boot it out, and then have the timeline completely altered just to stop it from spawn camping again. Thanks to Shadow Generations we know it still can come back since half of itself still exists in the void space, still trying to exist. This is contrasted with The End, that actually was defeated through force instead of the metaphysical equivalent of unplugging the controller. From The End's perspective it probably believes it is stronger than Solaris, but that being due to not being as easily removed. This being a connection issue is a real weakness since it can't fight where it no longer exists, which The End doesn't have said flaw due to being more present in reality than Solaris is. The End was still defeatable through force where Solaris couldn't be, though, and I think that means by power Solaris is stronger than The End. Or at least, what feats of its avatar we have seen. In all likelyhood given the nature of the beings, a permanent draw seems the most reasonable take, since Solaris and The true End both in their true forms exist beyond the timeline and space-time. Whatever heirarchy of creatures those have we won't realistically get a power scale for, so it is what it is.
Mephiles was powerful enough to been sealed by Black Doom and the Time Eater in the most deep zone of the white space and even there is power was leaking, because he could get out of that separate zone he could easily take the Time Eater down and steal is power, and even after defeating him he wasn't destroy he is alive and conscious in the white space. and he is only an half of Solaris
Here’s the thing though… I don’t think this is the last we’ve seen from The End. Sonic only destroyed it’s avatar. Thus severing its connection to the physical world again. But I have a strong feeling that it could easily make a return.
@@TycitronI think words like those should be taken with a grain of salt... most people probably believed the same about Devil Doom, and even Mephiles to some extent, until Shadow Generations happened.
A few points I wanted to add to this 1. The End, like Solaris, can bypass Super Sonic's invulnerability. But The End apparently even managed to neutralize the power of the Emeralds in Final Horizon,being further amplified by the energy of cyber corruption. Which also makes me think that The End is an antithesis to the Chaos Emeralds (the Chaos Vs Order, Life Vs Death thing) 2. I believe that at least Supreme is almost equivalent to Super Sonic from Frontiers. He is the strongest of the 4, not for nothing was he used as a prison for The End, and furthermore, the fight is the only one where Super Sonic does not defeat him directly. The fight only ends because The End manages to escape the Titan due to the fight, as established by Sage "All we did was chase it out of its shell". The End would then have held off 2 opponents of Frontier's Super Sonic's level (Sonic and Supreme Sage) and almost won. 3. Solaris would not necessarily be at the level of 3 Super Forms, but rather it was necessary because he needed to be destroyed in the past, present and future at the same time, which would need 3 of them. It is even left to the possibility that he could be destroyed in one of the timelines, but it would not be enough. So technically, 1 Super Form would have the raw power to destroy Solaris
Super Sonic already had enough power to defeat Solaris on his own, but Solaris has two dangerous abilities, existing in three moments in time: past, present, future, and returning from death to become more powerful than before, the only reason, as you said, to defeat Solaris was to hit his consciousness three times at once.
I like this idea, but Ian Flynn confirmed that the end was egotistical and was over boasting its power and I don’t think the end neutralize the chaos emeralds. I think he just hit sonic hard enough to where he loses the emeralds like knuckles did in the original sonic three it is just that sonic had so much better control over them that he was able to gain back his super form.
@ no the end could take on two super level beings, infinite, and the death robot with the phantom Ruby only required three base form characters even if we included Phantom King it only took one supersonic to take him down. So no the end is strong heck, even when egg man upgraded it to the point that he gave him his own super form called light man supersonic was still stronger
@drewwilson9938 Sonic genueinly has not had to deal with Eggman since like... Sonic 3 and Knuckles lmao. All bosses after are these big, god-like creatures that Eggman loses control over and Sonic has to defeat. Perfect Chaos, Biolizard, Metal Overlord, Solaris, Dark Gaia, etc.
Just pointing something out here, The time eater brought BACK a timeline that was obliterated (even if it was in White Space). While facing Shadow in his New Generations game, Mephilus points out that he needs to RESTORE himself to the timeline after escaping Shadow.
Sega knows fans want Mephiles to return. Right now he’s stuck in his own personal hell but depending on how Sega receives things we could see Mephiles come back as a main villain in a big way but he would need a big power boost to compete with the heroes because Iblis no long exist and he can’t become Solaris ever again.
@@JuwanBuchananMephiles is a manipulator more than he is a brawler, even if he's powercrept his ability to travel unrestricted through time with destructive intent is more than enough to make him a force to be reckoned with... god forbid he gets a hold on the 7 Chaos Emeralds and actually draws out their power.
Tbf i think that it doesnt make too much sense because (yes i know it's the canon explenation) it makes the time eater seem stronger or at least on a comparable scale as Solaris because apparently the time eater can act outside of existence itself. I would just be happy that we got to see Mephiles/Iblis in generations again, and not think too much about it from a lore standpoint
@@justice8718 Exactly. Those 3 will find a way to bring Mephiles back into the main timeline somehow. With his return, memories from Sonic 06 will start back flooding. Also, how do they explain Silver's existence if 06 was rewritten or written out? I think this could lead into a Silver year who wholeheartedly needs a reboot much more than Shadow.
Another thing to point out too for The End is that the director of Sonic Frontiers, Morio Kishimoto, has stated on Twitter and on the launch party stream for Frontiers that The End is the personification of death itself. And its avatar that we see being the moon isn't its true avatar form. As Morio also stated that Sonic and Sage saw something completely different from us in-game. Meanwhile, Solaris' true form is that of a white flame that which Elise blew out in the end of Sonic 06 which caused the game's events to not happen. And while Solaris was sealed inside of a Soleanna lab, The End was sealed inside Cyberspace, which they said the ancients built an entire reality just to contain it bending space-time in the process using the powers of the Chaos Emeralds. And speaking of the emeralds, The End was able to force Super Sonic out of both of his Super Forms with one of his attacks. He's the only villain in the series to have done that from sheer power alone mid-fight.
Technically, base form Knuckles has punched Sonic out of his Super state in Sonic 3 but the point still stands. Though knowing how things usually are in long-running franchises, knocking Sonic out of his Super form might become a new trope to show how powerful a threat is. JL Season 1 Superman levels of the plot having villian pull plot magic on Super Sonic to show how strong they are since he's relevant again.
@@rayvenkman2087Knuckles is the keeper of the Master Emerald, so he can use its energy. Also, it was a surprise attack while Starfall Super Sonic was trying to stop The End's attack.
@@rayvenkman2087 he said "only villain that can do it" - not the only character yes it is possible to knock sonic out of his super form, but the end took him out of his ASCENDED super form, which is vastly more powerful than his 1st super form, even Knux cant do that
Wait if Sonic remembers the events of 06 then why doesn’t Shadow or anyone else? During Frontiers, Tails would compare the The Ends power to Dark Gaia, suggesting that was the most powerful adversary they remembered fighting. There was never any mention of Solaris.
Apparently there's both evidence of Sonic remembering as well as not. That being said, maybe Sonic remembers because he was the only one present when Solaris was erased. Well... Him and Elise, at least. And the end of 06 seems to imply that even if she DOESN'T remember, she still feels somewhat happy with the mere presence of Sonic and recognizes it when he passes by. So maybe it's a similar case for Sonic, he does somewhat remember, but at the same time doesn't.
Everyone in 06 subconsciously remembers the events, giving them deja vu when anything similar to that game happens. The memories are still there, but so foggy, it's as if they don't have them. Sonic and Elise probably have the clearest (but still foggy) memories of 06, since they were the ones who blew out the candle in the first place.
@@AtomicoMacacoWhat about Blaze, there's straight dialogue of her in Sonic Generation not expecting to see Crisis City again. Or does that also count as it being a foggy memory?
@@sacredpower7530 Colors DS literally shows her first interaction with Silver. She didn't know him but felt as if they had worked together before. So yeah, Blaze remembering Crisis City can either be a continuity error or just some instance of her both remembering and not remembering at the same time.
@AtomicoMacaco Then what about Team Sonic Racing (the game is canon) where Sonic asks Silver if he remembers that he tried to kill him when they first met each other? Not talking about Sonic Rivals 1 because they weren't that violent to one another in that game compared to 06.
To add to the point of characters getting much stronger as the games go on… Shadow needed super form to defeat Devil Doom in Shadow 05. However in Shadow Generations, he only needed ONE chaos emerald and mastery of the Doom Powers (which is literally just his own power that comes from his Black Arms DNA) to defeat not only Devil Doom… but an UPGRADED Devil Doom, in the form of Neo Devil Doom. And Generations Black Doom is LEAGUES beyond his 2005 counterpart.
Since Solaris wiped out the entire dimension upon its creation (with only a few minor exceptions for some iconic landmarks that would soon be destroyed anyway) technically speaking Solaris most likely destroyed the Starfall islands along with any remnants of the ancient’s technology. Meaning Solaris has technically already killed The End. It wasn’t really a fight, but it just goes to show that it’s very possible Solaris could eliminate the end simply by existing
This. The End is Multiversal+ but Solaris is Outerversal, it represents an entire concept and cannot be destroyed. Yeah, its not really a "fight" because we're hitting really deep ideas of existence here.
Your logic doesnt make any sense. How does destroying an isIand mean he desteoyes the end? Yeah he destroyed the starfaII isIands but why does that mean The End is destroyed too? Considering The End scales to a much stronger sonic than the one solaris foughy, id say he was doing just fine.
It's kinda debatable when it comes to Sonic remembering 06, as in Sonic Rivals when Silver was reintroduced to the franchises, Sonic had no clue on who he is. Not to mention Mephiles actually knowing about his fate yet Shadow has no recollection of him. I do feel like Mephiles in Shadow Generations basically confirms alternate timelines, and we have no solid evidence if Sonic even remembers 06 we just know at the end of the game he visits Soleanna again but it could've just been to see the festival
They don't remember altho sometimes they kinda gets nostalgia or glimpse in a form of deja vu whenever they interact. In the colours ds when silver and blaze meet they feel like they have worked together before and when blaze finds herself in generations there is a dialogue which says something like "I never thought I would find myself back in crysis city"
@TheBengaliG which shouldn't make sense Blaze remembers Crisis City as Iblis is the cause of it, and Mephiles basically confirms that Mephiles and Iblis are trapped in White Space
People still don't realize that 06 has been hyper powercrept to hell and back. It was fun and all to pretend that solaris and mephilies were still top dog during the boost era games but theres no argument anymore its time to stop the cope
The guy who writes the stories says Solaris is the most powerful still. And he literally wrote the End's dialogue. Writers are gonna have to make villains stop lying or overestimating themselves, powerscalers are going to think they're being honest and accurate.
@@Vivacy_Editzz That would sound valid if he wasn't literally the person who created the character of THE END. Not only did he say that THE END would lose, but he even claimed that they are on such different scales that it wouldn't even be considered a matchup.
@@carlosgarabatosferro883 yeah the videos logic is cooked. To me its like comparing Azathoth with Yog Sothoth, Azathoth can blink the universe to nothing upon waking, but Yog is literally the binding force between all realities, time and space, including the concept of Azathoth, it cannot be extinguished. The End is Universal, maybe multiversal+ if we're being generous and its not just talking itself up, while Solaris is outerversal entirely as its part of the fabric of everything in all realities and time. as a Cthulhu Mythos dude this discussion really is just the Sonic version of Yog vs Azathoth.
As many have pointed out, Ian Flynn has said Solaris is the stronger of the two. As well as the fact we never actually beat Solaris, we only sever its connection. As a Cthulhu Mythos guy, this video is basically the Sonic version of Yog Sothoth vs Azathoth. I'll explain. Yog Sothoth is a being that is literally part of the fabric of all time, space, and all realities, his form is literally the make up of all universes and time. Past, present, future, Yog Sothoth is the key _and_ the gate. He is simultaneously binded to all but also locked outside of it. Azathoth is a daemon sultan who rests eternally, if he were to wake up, it would blink the multiverse out of existence like a dream. However, what it can destroy is limited to the physical destruction of realities, what we know of as "real" but not the concept. Yog Sothoth is the concept, whom also exists outside of it. The traditional name of Lovecrafts verse is "Yog Sothothery" as it is all, literally Yog Sothoth, all under him and is him. Solaris is like Yog and The End is like Azathoth. One embodies a concept and all reality (including Azathoth) while the other can destroy what that concept stands for but not the concept itself. Thus, The End is not stronger than Solaris. The End/Azathoth is Multiversal+ while Solaris/Yog Sothoth is Outerversal. They embody two different levels of dimensionality. You could argue different points especially going off feats, but generally speaking in all these vs debates, the being that literally is the entire concept of something is by default stronger than a destroyer entity or embodiment of death.
If Ian has said that he is wrong and is contradicted by the primary source material(the games) and Ian actually said in his bumblekast that The End is perhaps and possibly the strongest foe sonic has encountered so far. Whatever else Ian said that is contradicts the true source material has been debunked.
Tbh this could be interpreted as in both entities being different "Yog Sotoths". In 06 the hedgehogs beat the main Solaris outside of space-time and across different timelines, and time travel before its creation to make it impossible for it to return. In Frontiers a much stronger Sonic beats one avatar of The End inside the universe but by virtue of it just being an Avatar it implies that main big one hasn't manifested itself inside what we know as existence. Tl;dr: They both are eldritch entities that could be very well equal in power, but they were represented in the games in 2 different ways.
Sonic doesn't remember the events of 06 since in Shadow's campaign Mephiles outright says he is no longer part of the timeline and shadow has no memory of him. The end could NOT be referring to Solaris. It was more likely referring to Chaos, Dark Gia, Jin, for the gods and N. Wisp Armor, Metal, Time Eater, for the machines. The whole argument that "sonic gets stronger with age" should also be taken with FAR more grains of salt. While it is true to a degree, it can't explain everything cus of bad writing. He didn't DO anything to get stronger when he fought Infinite. He was locked up for months, went on some jogging trips and was conveniently strong enough. Also keep in mind that Infinite beat sonic by using Shadow, Zavok, Chaos, and Metal to back him up. Clones that brought sonic to his knees the first time but by the end of the game could be defeated by "Jake the dog using a wispon" . An inconsistency that Infinite himself is a victim of when you fight him as the avatar. In the final battle it should also be noted that he only took on sonic by HIMSELF. Metal also causes this argument to fall apart because if Sonic really does get stronger by such a massive degree in a matter of days, Eggman should NEVER have been able to upgrade him enough to STILL stalemate him after cd and yet can in the SAME form. If he could that means that Eggy is intentionally limiting his most prized badnik because he wants to let sonic win. Takashi Izuka (I think) also said that the titians in frontiers are each AS POWERFUL as the previous final bosses that sonic has faced. That can't really be the case though since that contradicts the previous statement. Either the former or latter are true, it CAN'T be both. Also because the timeline was erased the 06 cast are fundementally different people than the modern ones. It's not that they don't remember the events of 06, but they never experienced them to begin with. They aren't an x-year younger version of them and for all practical purposes that cast "died" when the candle was blown out and the universe restarted. For all we know, the 06 cast were stronger version of the two. Maybe not? Who knows? Comparing Time Eater to Solaris is also complicated because it was clearly weak enough to be controlled by the Eggmans, and it's way of annihilating time and space is far different than Solaris for two notable reasons. 1: Solaris was described as a "super dimensional being" who could casually consume universes "for breakfeast", and caused reality to fall apart just by existing. Not through a conscious effort, but by being a thing that exists. 2: Upon it's defeat, reality itself didn't collapse and forcefully restructure, the damage it can do to reality isn't on the same level if time and space can return to normality. Another thing to keep in mind is that Mephiles wasn't brought back just for nostalgia. It is acknowlegded IN UNIVERSE that the 06 timeline is no more and Mephiles still passed over from the previous timeline. Even after everything the cast did, the super fight, the candle, the universal restructure, there was still enough of him left that the time eater could reach into the previous timeline and bring not only him but parts relevant to him. This isn't limited to just Mephiles either since crisis city is still around and had iblis spawn to boot. Solaris was a being unbound by the concept of time that destroys dimensions, timelines, and space. In other words, it existed above those concepts. It is able to exist at it's three different points simultaneously with reality dying there as well. Keep in mind Eggman said, they didn't defeat his form but destroyed it's consciousness Finally the Ends statements about being all powerful while impressive are case of telling without showing. It seems that Ian wanted The End to be the next Solaris, acting closer to a force of nature than a sentient being, but despite that we only see it destroy planets at best. If it's goal was to return the universe to a neutral state, then why couldn't it do so before the ancients sealed it by just willing it (presumably when at it's best)? One major thing that you gloss over is that The End said that the ancients built an entire reality to imprison it. Who here was stated to eat realties for breakfast? The End is definitely a threat to the greater universe but only seems to be one one planet, probably star system at a time and the only thing it has on it's side is that it can nuetrualize the Chaos Emeralds, something that as seen in unleashed can be done by simply having energy that is their antithesis.
Yeah, I’d probably put the end more on the level of something like devil doom than Solaris, definitely powerful, but would have to go 1 planet at a time to execute the big plan
I saw a video that explained the Sonic memory thing and it seems like Sonic is kind of remembering little by little since I think it was in Rivals or another game but when he meets Silver he talks about their last meeting being kind of explosive and Silver says he doesn't remember anything about it (and Silver himself in some game talks about how he finds it strange that he feels that Sonic and he fought together before). Well, even though it is very unconscious at many moments, there is a lot of basis since Sonic base defeated Perfect Chaos and was still comparable (ok with Shadow not using Doom Powers but Sonic was crashing and running along with him) to a Shadow who faced many powerful enemies, The oc character I don't know what to say honestly. Well Eggman is a genius so maybe he could give Metal Sonic a speed advantage temporarily against Sonic where Eggman analyzes the previous speed and tries to make metal Sonic have an even greater speed but Sonic usually beats Metal Sonic so I don't see inconsistency. Sort of to emphasize that they are on the level of beings that Super Sonic is needed for, however how can we say that if this Super Sonic is much stronger than the supers of the past, it wasn't a fight that was much to the advantage of the titans and even Tails himself said that if I remember correctly they could be stronger than Dark Gaia itself who could already damage a super form. I agree with the other parts so I'll skip it. The end is actually a bit solid with its lines, it's simply stronger than Super Sonic, which is much stronger than the previous supers, and this Sonic in one of the endings had help from the supreme and in the other Sonic used Cyber corruption to increase the power of Super Sonic and Sonic had to go even further beyond the limits of his Skyfall Super Sonic form and become Cyber Sonic who honestly has more feats than the 3 super hedgehogs (and if I remember in the 06 guide it was already said that Super Sonic was enough but Solaris existed in three time periods so it needed all three to go to different points in time)
Infinite was never stronger than Sonic, the only reason he beat him in their first encounter was because he caught Sonic off guard with his speed and clones. Sonic after sitting around like a jobber for 3 months came back and mid diffed Infinite so hard he just blipped out of existence and never came back.
I love the end, and I would count it as likely the second most powerful thing in the sonic universe, but how I look at it is the end is a planet destroyer, Solaris is a timeline destroyer. They are not on the same level The end had to go planet by planet and its quest to eradicate all chaos in the universe. The end nearly wiped out all possible dimensions and timelines just by being reborn. That’s before it even actively tries to destroy anything. Edit: it should be noted that the most powerful attack we see The End perform was destroying a planet with a single laser. That still sensed higher than super sonic since it shown in sonic unleashed that the chaos emeralds would need to use all their power to split the planet open. That is as far as The End’s power goes. Anything else the end states is only things it claims to be able to do. I see it if the character can’t back up the statement with evidence it shouldn’t be counted, especially the author of the game directly, stated that The End was bluffing
@@reggielacey2235 The end has never shown the capability to destroy the universe. The highest we’ve seen of its attack power is casually destroying a plant. It should also be noted that Ian Flynn, the writer for sonic frontiers has stated that The End was bluffing. It wanted to sound superior in its final moments. He also directly stated that Solaris is more powerful than The End. It really doesn’t get much more official than that
@@comicfan1324what if Ian was bluffing himself and he’s got other plans he doesn’t want to spoil, and what if when he said The End was bluffing, it was trying to terminate Super Sonic but failed at doing so, and is now retreating for a while to get stronger and stronger and eventually surpass all limits…
THIS! Broski says exactly what i am thinking. When the end says 'it'll destroy everything' it can only imply (based on the evidence we have) that it would go death star on everyone. Its threats were no where close to destroying time itself! No hate to the guy, but dude in the video should have used more evidence and logical thinking instead of relying on empty threats and blowing open ended implications outta proportion! (I shouldn't be so pissed about the contrasting power levels of fictional entities but the Solaris disrespect man, we cant have that XD )
Solaris is the stronger of the two, and the End's statement that it's stronger than any of Sonic's previous foes is either a lie or an incorrect assumption on its part. We know this because the man that wrote the End's dialogue, Ian Flynn (current main writer for the series), directly stated that Solaris is still the most powerful entity in the series, and the End is in second place. Like, there's not really any arguing when the dude who writes the End's dialogue says the End is wrong. I fact, this is fairly obvious from how they're presented in the game. The End is a threat, yes, but Solaris devours the entire dimension that the games take place in _instantly_ upon its birth. The End never gets as far as Solaris did- If it could, then Sonic and co. being present where it appeared wouldn't have mattered at all, they would've been destroyed before they could mount a defence. It's either lying to try and spook Sonic or it's underestimating some of his past foes.
Can I get a source for Ian saying Solaris is the strongest enemy Sonic had Faced? And when was this statement made? Before or after frontiers? Before or after the horizon dlc?
I wonder if the egg wizard got retconed to be weaker than solaris, because the same sonic that folded solaris told blaze with a straight face "we can't win this one" Also something I wanna say that the solaris events weren't 3 hedgehogs fighting the same solaris, they were fighting one solaris each, super sonic alone could defeat one solaris
To be fair, Solaris wasn't actually "killed" , it was literally *expelled* from the timeline. Past, Present and Future. Nothing less would have worked. Mephiles's continued existence in The Void and his knowledge that he technically doesn't exist, tells me that he, and by extension Solaris, is truly *immortal* Its why weakening him and then sealing him inside the Scepter of Darkness is the only way to stop him. Whereas, at the end of the day, The End is a mainly *physical being* that can actually be *traditionally killed*
4:54 you could've used sonic generations to drive home the point sonic gets stronger every second. sonic needed a super form in adventure to deal with perfect chaos. in generations, all it takes is his base form. good video btw
You can honestly use multiple examples, Adventure 1, Chaos 0 destroys the ME and the energy inside of it, that alone would scale above Super Sonic and Hyper Sonic from 3&K which both use a lesser amount of energy
My only issue is that Ian Flynn, the guy who wrote Frontiers's script, has said he believes Solaris is still more powerful than The End. At the very least though, I believe we can agree that these two are the most powerful threats Sonic has ever faced.
@Sonicdxunleashed Solaris is capable of reality warping, time travel and *_EATING ENTIRE TIMELINES/DIMENSIONS_* at a time. Dark Gaia is a planet level threat at best. I do not believe Infinite comes close to matching Solaris either.
My understanding is this, Solaris still exists in pieces as it's an super-dimensional lifeform. It may have been erased in 06's timeline, i.e. Dimension A, but that doesn't get rid of any of its fragments which potentially exist elsewhere. Overtime Solaris has been trying to restore itself through these fragments, whether it be through Time Eater and or Phantom Ruby, every time ending with a sun being utilized as a symbol of the fallen Sun God. Time Eater in final boss has a sun accompany and hurtles towards the two Sonic's during its final attack. Infinite was allured by the Phantom Ruby for whatever reason to bring the sun down onto the Earth. Until all of Solaris's fragments have been destroyed it'll keep coming back. That's how powerful Solaris truly is. That's why we don't get a specific known origin of the Time Eater nor Phantom Ruby. (Not only did Phantom Ruby cause Infinite to levitate exactly like Mephiles The Dark, in his theme song's official music video has his yellow eye turn a glowing green throughout. Much like again Mephiles's own glowing green eyes when in his crystal form. To make things more interesting Sonic Forces was also round about the time Mephiles started randomly getting official merch from SEGA.) In addition, Time Eater in despite of essentially being mindless still suspiciously managed to bring back Iblis and Mephiles in addition to finally with Kingdom Valley Solaris's iconography itself. All we know is that Time Eater is a primordial essence according to the rewrite, primordial being something that exists beyond or before time and both Solaris and Time Eater seem to consume time in the exact same manner, so if it's primordial essence of anything it'd be Solaris hence why Time Eater angrily chucks a sun.
Also have to take into account the temporal omnipresence of Solaris, a Super Form was enough to defeat him, but Solaris existed in the past, present and future, so it didn't matter if they defeated him in one era, if they didn't do it in all of them, Solaris would continue to exist, so Sonic, Shadow and Silver had to divide themselves into three eras in order to each defeat their own Solaris.
This is a nice video. Now I'm wondering if you would be willing to do a power ranking of every Sonic final boss from weakest to strongest as a follow up to this at some point.
Winning the Solaris boss seems to have only sent them to the origin of Solaris. The flame. The point in which it was at its weakest. If they hadn’t made it there and blew out the flame, Solaris couldn’t be stopped. All they did was knock it out and get sent thru time. Defeating The End did mean its destruction. In the base game and the Final Horizons endings. It required sheer force to destroy it. They didn’t need to travel thru time to its origin. I think it’s most likely that the End and Solaris would battle to a standstill. Neither able to destroy the other. Tho Solaris being able to exist at every point in time may mean it could outlast The End and put power it over time.
Didn't Ian Flynn state that The End is the second most powerful Solaris at some point? With that, I feel like The End was just being cocky by claiming to be infinite compared to an omnipotent/omnipresent opponent like Solaris. But that's just my opinion. His biggest feat we've seen was planetary annihilation, and we can't confirm if that was his full power. Plus, we dont know how far the cyber energy enhanced the chaos emeralds power in SS2 or CS compared to the combined power of 3 super hedgehogs. I honestly wish the end would return as a threat again. Hearing the dialogue first time made me feel dreadful, like i eas fighting for nothing
@@FirestoneAnimation realistically I think it’s a “death of the author fallacy” Since the overwhelming evidence contradicting Ian Flynns comments makes it redundant to me Unless you believe the 06 super forms can beat all 4 titans in a 3v4….. the same guys that could give Frontiers Super Sonic a good fight
Ian is not great at power scaling he seems to think just cause a character is universal means he can destroy universes nope that means a character is on the same level as a being that can destroy them it’s like saying super sonic is weaker than the final bosses cause it isn’t as destructive despite the fact SUPER SONIC BEATS THEM now I don’t think the end can kill Solaris but that’s due to hax not attack potency I think the End is like super sonic not as widely destructive as Solaris but much more concentrated power I mean it is the only opponent sonic needed to go beyond super sonic for and the 06 trio were fully confident in beating Solaris solo they just needed to deal with his hax
@@Replies.Delete.Sometimes.IDKy. And then Ian said that most of those dialogues were merely a distorted and heightened view that THE END has of itself.
This fight actually happened canonically. In '06, Solaris wiped out reality through the simple act of existing. This includes (but is not limited to): The End. Case Closed, The End is an "inevitability", but Solaris is able to do its thing just by existing. Even if it was somehow in one of the small pockets of time that survived, Sonic and co. never beat Solaris, they just lobotomized and aborted it.
@Sonicdxunleashed except canonically where Solaris defeated The End. In a fight where it was "Solaris vs. The End plus just about every single thing in all of creation at every point in time, including The End at the height of its power from every point it was at the height of its power." So canonically an indefinite number of The End went up against Solaris simultaneously... and LOST.
@Sonicdxunleashed in 06, Solaris erases all realities and points in time. The End exists in at least one of those realities. Ergo, The End was destroyed by Solaris canonically. Maybe The End was putting up a fight off-screen, but it would've been an infinite number of The End failing to defeat a single Solaris. Ergo Solaris wins canonically.
I wonder about silver. I think that he deserves the title of "the ultimate lifeform" waaaayyy more than shadow. in the sonicverse the characters are categorized on three types:speed flight and power. silver's telekinesis makes him a flight type, but he is also capable of lifiting really heavy stuff and he is pretty fast, thus technically qualifying for all 3 types.
Ian said The End was hyping itself up and lying out of desperation. I trust him, which makes it even more fucking disappointing with how up-played the character was. Ian doesnt really know how to deliver on such grandeur, cosmic villains it seems
To be fair, I don’t know how you’re meant to sell an eldritch personification of entropy itself in the mediocre galaga clone you’re stuck with for a final boss level. Maybe in a game given more time it could’ve worked a bit better.
@gordonfreeman5735 it would've worked just fine cuz it felt like you didn't truly end it(lol), maybe destroy one of its avatars. But the way Ian talked about and ended it made it seem like it wasn't an eldritch abomination, but just a regular cosmic lifeform. Like, sure its visually unfathomable since everyone sees something different but it's fairly clear that it intentionally hid itself as a moon for camouflage given how Ian described it
@devanplays3509 podcast episode, no idea which one it was unfortunately. But again, sounded like he was annoyed having to explain it. Kinda felt like he just assumed that's how it would be taken or that it should've been obvious, so I take that like he didn't really get that he overhyped the character
@devanplays3509 forgot to mention that while I dont remember the exact time he said it, I _think_ he brought it up a few mo ths after the game dropped and once again after Superstars did due to the cameo it made
The End is my favorite villian ine history of Sonic. It's such a powerful being and the way it talks about destroying everything as if it were no big chore just makes me love this character more. I don't rlly know how to explain why I love this character so much, but I really do. I hope we get to see The Ends truest form in Sonic Frontiers: 2
2:58 sonic does remember the 06 events?? How is that possible I thought no one did, hell even MEPHILES states that shadow forgot about him, and shadow does not even remember him anyway
@@Dripichigo-m7j Crisis City being in Sonic Gens doesn’t mean he remembers the events. The Time Eater is able to “bring back” erased events from the timeline such as Crisis City and Mephiles, but that doesn’t mean Sonic or Shadow remember them.
Solaris was K.O'd, but not entirely defeated. Sonic had to get rid of that timeline to kinda "defeat" Solaris. Also Ian Flynn already confirmed on his twitter that The End was bluffing. All It was saying was just out of it's ass to intimidate Sonic, and that it will not appear again since It was destroyed. (Also, you know who else was all "never ending, undefeatable, so intimidating and all powerful"? Infinite. And we all know how that ended up) So yeah, Solaris wins by a loooong shot.
The End which we observe as a moon is simply a incarnation/avatar of its true form. Going through ingame dialogue it seems it heavily corrosponds to Platos theory of forms. It stated to look different based on the observer altering its visual presentation based on how the observer believes death looks like. This would inherently make it both formless and intelligble aswell as archetypal in nature since it would always be the perfect representation of death to any observer. Its also shown the ability to destroy other abstract entities/thoughts like the phantom lights, which are shapless/formless and abstract ideas of the ancients. It also describing itself as infinite showing its eternal and transcendental in nature. Such statements would make it a Type 1 Universal Concept. Meaning its true form is above all reality beyond dimensions of geometrical/Euclidean properties and omnipresent wherever death/the concept of death/order exists. Its true form would be inherently multiversal to generally outerversal scaling wise. You can imagine it similarly to a Universal Constant throughout all of existence and beyond anbound by ideas like space or time. Solaris atbest might be able to destroy its incarnations which are strong and fast by themselves, but its true form would be an inaccessible/transinfinte layers of existence above solaris and even Solaris is bound by the concept of death. So in a sense the End has already beaten Solaris. and its abilities/hax are overall comparable if not better to Solaris. Its harder/impossible to argue that solaris is a concept of similar magnitude to the End The End(incarnation) =< Solaris
I also want to mention that in Sonic x Shadow generations which is the remake of Sonic generations it's shown that frontiers happens before it which means Sonic got way more powerful form frontiers and also fought the Time eater
Actually during the game when talking to Gerald, Shadow says that he's visiting places he's never seen before. Gerald suggests that the stages in the game are not only ones from the past but also from the future, meaning stuff like Forces and Frontiers happens after. The real reason Chaos Island was added was because that engine already had assets ready from that game and it was less work than making new assets from a different level.
Here's another thing... if you takes the damage of Super Sonic 2 and compare it to the damage dealt before powering up, you have the power of 10.25x Super Sonics. It took 7.25 more Super Sonics to even match a FRACTION of The Ends power. As you said even if The End can't kill Solaris, Solaris couldn't even scratch the "avatar" of The End that we fight in-game. I'd say a draw is definetly the outcome.
Okay but Sonic was still nerfed in frontiers tho? At most starfall super sonic is like whatever actual regular super sonic levels of strength in frontiers since it’s definitely stronger than generations
Solaris wins only by virtue of needing 3 supersonic tier characters in 3 different timelines to be defeated (which the end is seemingly incapable of), but the end would beat any individual solaris in any given time. Thats my 2 cents at least
There IS no individual Solaris. Solaris is omnipresent in ALL time, that's why the super hedgehogs had to defeat it in multiple points in time simultaneously.
2:48 But Solaris was erased from Sonic's memory after the events of Sonic 06, you say it's confirmed in generations that he remember's but if that's the case why does Shadow also remember Mephilis? Great video!
Shadow doesn’t remember Mephilies. That’s why he’s all “Don’t you remember me, Shadow? You haven’t forgotten me again, have you?” And all that. Only Sonic was there to erase Solaris along with Elise and he even references Silver trying to kill him in (the JP version of) Team Sonic Racing but Silver doesn’t remember either.
I dunno bub. Solaris wasn’t necessarily beaten by them. Rather, the timelines it inhabited collapsed back to the singular point of when the king of Soleanna brought it into the physical world. Elise blew out the flame, creating a paradox. It took a time paradox to destroy Solaris, and simultaneous attacks in 3 separate timelines to get it to that point. The End isn’t capable of creating that paradox. I’d call that a permanent draw, effectively masking Solaris and The End the new gods of the next creative cycle with Solaris being order and The End being chaos.
Infinite was stated to be sonic strongest enemy yet. Infinite > Solaris and sonic beat infinite in base and was also capable of beating the death egg robot which was stated to transcend infinite once again in base. Base current sonic >>Solaris lol 😂
@@Vivacy_EditzzExcept nothing about Infinite in Forces really screams heavy hitters other than the fact he whooped Sonic's ass on their first go around but that's a very common trope in fiction where the villian floors the hero in the first encounter and nothing that really indicates he's got the power levels to keep Sonic on the backfoot. The fact Sonic beat him in base form doesn't really help it. If he used Super Sonic against him, maybe there would be weight behind it. But at the end of the day, Forces is Forces.
@@rayvenkman2087 Nah, it's supported by the other games that Sonic just, grows that fast. Take Unleashed to Black Knight for example, a post unleashed Sonic is stated by King Arthur to not be worth killing, and in 3 days Sonic becomes strong enough to literally cook him
FR DUDE THANK YOU!! I'M GOING NUTS WITH HOW MANY PEOPLE REALLY THINK A PURPLE FUCKING ROCK BEATS A EXISTENCE ERASING SUN GOD WHO EXISTS INFINITELY IN ALL POINTS OF TIME!!! THE END GLAZING IS RIDICULOUS!!!
Modern Sonic wouldn't still beat Solaris by his own, so I don't know what you talking about. Not in any form, Solaris needed 3 beings boosted by the power of the 7 "Miracle Gems" (Chais Emeralds) to be beat in every point in time, no way the power creep matters for this comparison. You will never see Sonic doing to Solaris what he did to Perfect Chaos in Generations. All you could argue for is that Solaris lacks the attack power to beat the end (which I agree). In retrospective, however, he could just consume the end's very existence in the timeline after the end completely fails to beat Solaris in every point in time... Yes, the end can not travel in time, if he could the story would be very, very different. Even the Time Earter could erase the end while being much weaker in terms of raw strength compared to Solaris and the end. The end's overconfidence in it's strength would be his demise against beings who actually got the power to erase you from existence...
Solaris cant kiII The End because its literally dea th IoI. So unless it scales to current sonic, its not beating the end. Not to mention the end will just tank all its atks because, well, its stronger.
Ok i got a question for you Does the end have any time manipulation immunity if lets say solaris decides to freeze all time? And not to mention? You didn't account for all Solaris abilities. Also Solaris is a multiverse level threat, the end is only universal.
The End was sealed in Cyberspace, which was created by the power of the Chaos Emeralds, so yes, he should be immune. In addition, before the battle in the FH, it says that shall perish and return to order, to oblivion, which is more or less similar to what Solaris did.
The End which we observe as a moon is simply a incarnation/avatar of its true form. Going through ingame dialogue it seems it heavily corrosponds to Platos theory of forms. It stated to look different based on the observer altering its visual presentation based on how the observer believes death looks like. This would inherently make it both formless and intelligble aswell as archetypal in nature since it would always be the perfect representation of death to any observer. Its also shown the ability to destroy other abstract entities/thoughts like the phantom lights, which are shapless/formless and abstract ideas of the ancients. It also describing itself as infinite showing its eternal and transcendental in nature. Such statements would make it a Type 1 Universal Concept. Meaning its true form is above all reality beyond dimensions of geometrical/Euclidean properties and omnipresent wherever death/the concept of death/order exists. Its true form would be inherently multiversal to generally outerversal scaling wise. You can imagine it similarly to a Universal Constant throughout all of existence and beyond anbound by ideas like space or time. Solaris atbest might be able to destroy its incarnations which are strong and fast by themselves, but its true form would be an inaccessible/transinfinte layers of existence above solaris and even Solaris is bound by the concept of death. So in a sense the End has already beaten Solaris. and its abilities/hax are overall comparable if not better to Solaris. Its harder/impossible to argue that solaris is a concept of similar magnitude to the End The End(incarnation) =< Solaris
How is The End more powerful or be able to ‘end’ existence or let alone be comparable to infinity, when it can’t even escape digital space by itself. Digital Space shouldn’t be that different to regular Space-Time. Everything going off of here seems to only be going off of statements.
@@deathwingthedestroyer3632 if you’re gonna try to tell me 06 super sonic is somehow equal to super sonic from frontiers then you’re gonna have to make the biggest reach imaginable to prove that😭
@ Not really, I was going to say that neither argument addresses that a perfectly convenient and easily exploitive weak spot had HAD to be present on Solaris for it to be defeated. Plus I personally think 3 Super Hedgehogs should be comparable to Frontiers Super Sonic at least to a degree, but that’s just me.
All imma say is that in Frontiers, there was a flashback where the End one shotted multiple planets...And the end seems to be very smart and cunning too
At the start of Forces Eggman heavily implies infinite is superior to anything he’s ever made. This would include the Egg Wizard can create realms stated to be beyond dimensions, making it potentially 5D.
@@starch_lad Eggman called the fucking Egg Dealer his greatest creation in _Shadow the Hedgehog._ A mech that literally has buttons that make it shoot itself if the person fighting it hits them before Eggman does, and can also super-charge Shadow, one of his enemies. Eggman says some absolute nonsense sometimes.
@@ToaArcanChrist Almighty this comment caught me off guard lmfao. That is true though, Eggman is a genius but he do be overhyping himself and his creations here and there 🤣
@@starch_lad Do you realize how many times Eggman has said that same thing? Knowing the character you should already know that such statements cannot be taken seriously.
@@ToaArcan Fair point, but I feel the context behind both statements is important deduce their validity. Infinite’s statement at the start of forces is to establish that the stakes are higher than ever. That’s why, I the same cutscene, Eggman goes a speal about hating Sonic, the reason he states all his losses will be payed a thousand fold and why Orbot says Eggman means business this time. All of it is to establish Infinite is a larger threat than anything Eggman has created prior. As for the Egg-Dealer statement, it is one of the final bosses of a Shodow 05 play through (final story not included), so it’s likely that the line was included to justify why your fighting it and not something else.
I was thinking about "Stellaris" and the shroud entity called "The Cycle" and was gonna say "there is literally nothing in all of Sonic Franchise that is gonna beat that.
Sonic do not remember sonic 06, neither shadow, time eater used his ability to consume time and space to put mephiles, Kingdom valley and crisis city in white space, but they dont remember the events of these games. Shadow says to mephiles that him do not know mephiles and sonic in sonic rival dont know who silver is. Mephiles says that he want to exist, to be in the main timeline, so he needs to defeat shadow for this to happen, but he fails Mephiles is confined out of the timeline and time eater creating the white space, consuming everything to there, was he's only chance to return The characters only get deja vu of places of the 06, like they have passed here, because they did, but they dont remember
Sonic Generations doesn't prove that Sonic remembers the events of 06. In fact, Shadow Generations disproves that entirely. The Time Eater isn't taking places from Sonic's memory. It's taking places from across space-time that just happen to coincide with Sonic's past. Neither Modern Sonic, Modern Tails, or Blaze have any memory of Crisis City, and Shadow has no memory of Kingdom Valley or Mephiles.
Ian Flynn stated that The End was just boasting when it was bragging about its self. Classic bad guy thing. The End has no way of fully destroying Solaris as it exists in multiple realities and The End has been shown to not fully be able to cross dimensions. This fight would be a stalemate. P.S. Super Sonic never defeated Solaris.
Yes super sonic defeated solaris. And besides super sonic wasnt taking the fight seriously as shown by the diaIogue. Even shadow said this MIGHT be an interesting fight after finding out solaris was a super dimensional being.
Before watching the video, I think that The End is overall stronger than Solaris, but there is actually no way that The End could even remotely win against an omnipresent being.
The End which we observe as a moon is simply a incarnation/avatar of its true form. Going through ingame dialogue it seems it heavily corrosponds to Platos theory of forms. It stated to look different based on the observer altering its visual presentation based on how the observer believes death looks like. This would inherently make it both formless and intelligble aswell as archetypal in nature since it would always be the perfect representation of death to any observer. Its also shown the ability to destroy other abstract entities/thoughts like the phantom lights, which are shapless/formless and abstract ideas of the ancients. It also describing itself as infinite showing its eternal and transcendental in nature. Such statements would make it a Type 1 Universal Concept. Meaning its true form is above all reality beyond dimensions of geometrical/Euclidean properties and omnipresent wherever death/the concept of death/order exists. Its true form would be inherently multiversal to generally outerversal scaling wise. You can imagine it similarly to a Universal Constant throughout all of existence and beyond anbound by ideas like space or time. Solaris atbest might be able to destroy its incarnations which are strong and fast by themselves, but its true form would be an inaccessible/transinfinte layers of existence above solaris and even Solaris is bound by the concept of death. So in a sense the End has already beaten Solaris. and its abilities/hax are overall comparable if not better to Solaris. Its harder/impossible to argue that solaris is a concept of similar magnitude to the End The End(incarnation) =< Solaris
That doesn’t hold any weight Given that Sonic and blaze in Team Sonic Racing remembers Crisis city and events that transpired in 06, and they seemingly are the only ones to do so. The whole “sage and end being unreliable” is dishonest given that Solaris fanboys take Eggmans narration as gospel…. Despite sage being created by Eggman? Seems kinda desperate to try claim that, that’s all
It’s also important to note that the final battle of 06 is supposed to be a 1v1 with Solaris in all 3 periods. If it’s really true that they needed to beat him in all 3 times periods then it means Solaris lost to the 3 super hedgehogs in a 1v1 meanwhile the end was able to easily overpower 4 super form threats from a later time. I’m not sure if the end can destroy Solaris but considering the raw power creep between the games I doubt Solaris could do any real damage to the end. Either the end somehow manages to annihilate all forms of Solaris or the two 1v1 for eternity with the different versions of Solaris tagging in and out against the end
The End is Unimaginable Times Stronger Than Solaris in Terms of Sheer Power,like this is like Comparing Kid Goku to Black Frieza The question here is not,can The End beat Solaris,The Question here is What does The End have,that can take care of Solaris's omnipresence/Inmortality
The end is also immortal, and it's implied that eventually the End would consume creation itself if Sonic didn't stop it. So eventually it would consume Solaris
I feel like Solaris would easily beat The End. It had taken 3 hedgehogs in order to "beat" it while the End was defeated by Super Sonic(2 in Final Horizon)and Supreme.
@@MeepinMehBut that super sonic Scales Abyssaly above the Three super forms tho? Like at Best the fight is a Draw. Solaris can have all the inmortality Hax he wants but he doesn't have nearly enough attack potency to put down what basically needed a power equivalent of FOUR super forms...multiplied a good couple times over to put down...
@MeepinMeh except,Base Sonic in Frontiers Shits on the Hedgehog Super Trío, because this Franchise has Enormous Powercrept,Frontiers Base Sonic has waaaaay Better feats, Showings,Statements,And Narrative Than everything Before Even Forces
I dont know if I agree with Sonic remembering the events of 06. To my knowledge, there's no cutscene in Sonic Generations where Sonic states that he remembers the events of Crisis City or 06 and Shadow Generations proves that the Time Eater can put places and characters from someone's timeline (even erased timelines) in the void as during Shadow's fight with Mephiles in Generations, Shadow does not remember Mephiles at all despite Mephiles remembering Shadow. That being said, you could argue that Sonic remembers 06 as it is somewhat hinted at in the ending of 06 itself and there is also the question of how Sonic knows Silver if he the events of 06 never happened.
@@Purple_23184 simple One exists in 3 time periods and you need to kill it in all 3 at the same time or it'll keep coming back and even then that doesn't truly beat it And the other is a moon who at best destroys worlds and got one shot by Super Sonic just flying into it once If you want more FACTUAL evidence unlike the video I got it
Simply put. Sonic remembers the events of 06, as shown in 06 and TSR, The End saw Sonic’s mind, saw Solaris among those Sonic faced and straight up called him finite. To back this up, Super Sonic couldn’t even beat The End without help, and there was lots of room for failure, while in 06, Super Sonic beat Solaris in the present without trouble. To make matters worse for Solaris, the End hadn’t even regained its full power yet, as Sage stated that if it did, Super Sonic wouldn’t be able to stop it. (This doesn’t even account for the absolute power creep that took place in Final Horizon, which was a result of The End’s absurd power.)
Solaris could already be defeated by 1 Super Form while The End faced the equivalent of 2 Super Sonic from Frontiers (Sonic and Supreme Sage) and almost won The biggest problem with Solaris is that it exists in the past, present and future. Which would need 3 people at the same time, so it was 3 Super Forms
i personally dont really agree. alot of it mainly comes down to taking what the end was saying about itself into a literal sense. another thing that needs to be considered is the way each one of these threats were defeated. solarous not only needed 3 of the strongest people in the sonic universe, but they also needed to be in a certain point in time to do the same thing. meaning if we did bring this version of sonic and faught solarous, he can most likely defeat him faster, but the thing is he also has to do that in another point in time and even that doesn't truly defeat him. legit the only way he could die was to be permanently erased from existence. meanwile, you can defeat the end ones and he is gone. would it be hard, yes, would there be as many steps as solarouces, absolutly not. it wasn't trully baced on power alone, its mostly baced on if the end can destroy it in all points of time and space.
I think you are relying too much on assumptions and a growth scale that does not exist in a serious way. I like the information you've collected but it almost feels like you've left out details and facts on purpose to define a result. Also, I think the words of the writer, who gave the victory to Solaris, have more weight than the words of Eggman, who, every time he invents something new and minimally competent, defines it as his greatest creation. And the same thing happens with THE END which, according to the person who wrote it, has a God complex and overestimates itself.
And I mean, not out of favoritism towards Solaris, but even if we assume the maximum interpretation of power of both we would still literally have a being that devours concepts and dimensions, which erases existence as well as space-time just by being born against a supposed personified concept that destroys planets one by one with the goal of eventually destroying everything and which takes considerable years to travel through the universe.
@@john_negs7720 ok so does shadow side of the thing but clearly states he don’t remember what happened in 06 plus this a celebration title of course it gone have things from previous games it so and the time eater clearly has the power pull things from erase timelines as well I.e memphiles and crisis city
For another comparison Let’s put both entities up against an entity who is the antithesis that exists in another franchise. Giratina from Pokémon, the embodiment of both Matter and Antimatter. For Solaris vs Giratina, Solaris is virtually indestructible and has the power to devour timelines and even alter history and even fate itself. Solaris can also endlessly revive himself as long as his core is intact. Meanwhile for Giratina, he exists in a dimension where physics and causality do not exist as the Distortion World exists outside the concepts of both Time and Space. Giratina can also detect changes in other dimensions and even sense disturbances throughout the multiverse. This power makes Solaris almost impossible to kill, but Giratina exists outside space and time, giving him some resistance/immunity to Solaris’ manipulation of time. And although both characters are incapable of dying, Solaris’ abilities will most likely wear Giratina down, unless the fight takes place in the Distortion World. But even then, Solaris’ ability to devour space-time could potentially affect the Distortion World. As for Giratina vs The End, while The End claims to be star-level, Giratina being a concept of both Matter and Antimatter, he would most definitely neutralize The End. Meaning that Giratina would win high-diff against The End, but Solaris would most likely win high-diff against Giratina So in the end, while The End has the Durability and Destructive Power, Solaris wins with medium difficulty.
I miss 2012 if i could go back in time I would have avoided taking Seroquel XR and just accepted being in a cyclical nature of gains but also losses into gains and looping upwards to eventually stop losing
hey so breakdown aside… i’m just asking but what was the figure on the right in the thumbnail supposed to be? kinda looks like if The End had physical form or something.
Okay but let's consider this about Solaris 1. He does exist in all points in time making him semi omnipresent but not fully 2. It's not unlikely that the laws of the space time continuum don't apply to Solaris because of his semi omnipresence. With that said if Solaris wanted to he could theoretically bring forth multiple versions or clones with equal power of himself to the fight and we know that this isn't something he can't do because we see mephiles do it twice and anything mephiles can do so can Solaris so now we have to consider can the end fight 2 3 4 or even 5 Solaris'? Let's not forget that Solaris' existence is invincible and that the only way to truly get rid of Solaris is blowing out the light completely erasing Solaris from the timeline whereas the end is in fact killable
I would still argue Solaris is a stronger threat than The End. His very being caused time and space to basically collapse and he had to to be defeated by three hedgehogs in three different time periods just to go down. Basically running on Master Emerald logic which is terrifying when you realised how screwed the universe would be if Sonic, Shadow and Silver didn’t exist. As powerful as the End is and having shown off impressive feats, his existence didn't cause reality to come apart and it only took Super Sonic to deal with him. Plus it didn’t take a cosmic reset just to be rid of him and I'm pretty sure no time travel was involved. They're both comparable yet the way their stories portray them gives us different assumptions. At the end of the day, they're as powerful as the writers wants them to be. We know nothing about Solaris as an entity beyond what we can infer from Mephiles and what we can guess who Solaris is from what info we do get of him. Solaris is a threat to the cast and the rest of existence. The End is a threat to Sonic, Sage and the rest of the known universe. One existed for an eternity. One was born as a lab accident.
Sonic and co never beat Solaris and the TimeEater has only been stated to destroy time and space while Solaris can do that infinite times over as he is specifically said to consume more then one timeline. And finally Sonic doesn't remember Solaris. Shadow doesn't remember Mephiles, Mephiles said himself he doesn't exist and all we know is that Sonic only remembers Elise and Silver's bad future. And even then they only came back due to the TimeEater's interference and afterwards time was restored the way it was so either they forgot it again or they only remember certain events. Mephiles is part of Solaris so if he doesn't exist then niether does Solaris. So no, the End doesn't know of Solaris and to top it all off Ian Flynn himself said Solaris is more powerful then The End. Take his word as you wish but he fricking wrote the End's whole character and plot of Frontiers
The End which we observe as a moon is simply a incarnation/avatar of its true form. Going through ingame dialogue it seems it heavily corrosponds to Platos theory of forms. It stated to look different based on the observer altering its visual presentation based on how the observer believes death looks like. This would inherently make it both formless and intelligble aswell as archetypal in nature since it would always be the perfect representation of death to any observer. Its also shown the ability to destroy other abstract entities/thoughts like the phantom lights, which are shapless/formless and abstract ideas of the ancients. It also describing itself as infinite showing its eternal and transcendental in nature. Such statements would make it a Type 1 Universal Concept. Meaning its true form is above all reality beyond dimensions of geometrical/Euclidean properties and omnipresent wherever death/the concept of death/order exists. Its true form would be inherently multiversal to generally outerversal scaling wise. You can imagine it similarly to a Universal Constant throughout all of existence and beyond anbound by ideas like space or time. Solaris atbest might be able to destroy its incarnations which are strong and fast by themselves, but its true form would be an inaccessible/transinfinte layers of existence above solaris and even Solaris is bound by the concept of death. So in a sense the End has already beaten Solaris. and its abilities/hax are overall comparable if not better to Solaris. Its harder/impossible to argue that solaris is a concept of similar magnitude to the End The End(incarnation) =< Solaris
@excal5529 yes but 1. We don't know the true extent of its power or even if its power is equates to much more then shown. 2. There's no proof that the incarnations only have a limited amount of the End's power. And 3. Ian Flynn never commented on a true form and concretely stated the End is less powerful then Solaris
Great video however since 06 was erased from sonics memories would the end still know about it? Besides that which I couldn’t give you straight answer 2 , great video
One thing you have to point out is that super sonic from frontiers could probably solo the super trio from 06. You have to take into account that sonic grows ALOT as time goes by
The End severely outmatches Solaris. Solaris was depicted as being not much stronger than the Super trio as each were able to withstand it's attacks, outspeed it, and even damage both its armor and its core. The reason why they needed three was simply because of Solaris' temporal omnipresence, but remove that and Super Sonic alone handle Solaris. Sonic canonically gets stronger each game, shown the most in Forces and Frontiers. So, the version of Sonic "The End" fought would scale above the version Solaris fought. This is without including Super Sonic 2. I know there was a statement on Twitter by the creator that implied Giganto was at the level of past Super Sonic foes, which makes sense. Not only is Giganto fighting a stronger Super Sonic, but both Sonic and Sage repeatedly imply that the gap between Super Sonic and Giganto is decently close, arguably Giganto has an advantage. You can easily argue Giganto scales above Solaris. Wyvern and Knight have evidence suggesting they scale above Giganto, with Supreme being the strongest amongst them. (To note: Solaris was surpassed decades ago. The Time Wizard scaled to Super Sonic and Burning Blaze and, unlike Solaris, actually fought them together while Solaris was rivaling a single Super Hedgehog). Lastly, The End... yeah, not only did Sonic need an enhanced Super Form to fight against The End tethered Supreme, but he needed even MORE power to actually deal a decisive blow against The End, which left him bruised and unconcious. Solaris could never. I don't think Solaris has anything to actually take down The End given how much weaker Solaris is, but I'm not sure if The End has anything to bypass Solaris' temporal omnipresence. For those who quote Ian, keep in mind that his word is not law. He has made false claiks in the past and very clearly expressed that you shouldn't take his word at face value. The guy is just sharing his thoughts and opinions.
Imo this implies the end is possessed by the one in the same being called solaris, dark gaia, time eater etc. whom also possessed metal sonic in heroes and chaos in adventure Not to mention sonic x shadows artwork calling devil doom “iblis” lol
While i dont necessarily disagree. I think a few things aren't true either. Saying that just because 06 was in Generations, means that Sonic remembers it. I think it was more so a timeline that Sonic was heavily involved and was brought in because of it. Shadow sure as hell didnt remember who Mephiles was, but is still part of his story because he was heavily involved with Mephiles and was pulled into white space. Also i think Solaris being basically omnipresent is more than enough to match the End in some fashion. Also saying the Titans scale to super sonic isn't necessarily true either. Multiple actions in the game show that super sonic is easily faster and stronger than them. Love the video still btw 🥹 Just stuff i wanted to bring up ^-^
I used to think the Sonic gets stronger over time thing was just an excuse for him beating infinite until I remembered that in generations Sonic beat perfect chaos in base with relative ease when in adventure he needed to go super
2:28 This is an exaggeration. When The End talked about tearing down the walls between dimensions, it was talking about the "wall" between Cyberspace and Sonic's world. As far as "consuming all" is concerned, it's talking about going around the universe and taking down individual planets. Ian Flynn said as much on Bumblekast. So no, The End is not omniversal like Solaris is. As for Super Sonic 2, what it gave Sonic was the ability to reflect The End's big orbs. There's that and how I feel people overplay the whole "more powerful every second" thing. Yes, he beat Perfect Chaos in base form. By learning how to boost. Like, that's it. And The End stroking it's own ego doesn't say much either.
I know I've seen comments talk about how Ian Flynn talk about how Solaris is stronger than The End, but at the same time, they're both strong in their own rights. I don't want to drag out information on both entities, so let's just leave it at that for the best.
Remember, Solaris was able to damage Sonic shadow and silver in their SUPER FORMS where they are supposed to be invincible! The End could only push Sonic back in REGULAR Super Form, Not counting the power up Sonic gained to defeat it ofc. So yeah if Solaris returns to the timeline, The End will meet it's End. Pun intended.
You are forgetting Sonic gets much more powerful as time goes on - with sonic needing 2 additional super forms to stand a chance against the end As sage states that Frontiers super sonic would be incapable of stopping even a weakened version of the end. I’m sorry but please research better
@@TheGamingRift11 while this is true, Solaris still managed to ACTUALLY DAMAGE Sonic in his super form. Whether that's true for his additional super form is a completely different story but in the end, I guess it didn't even matter :P Pun intended
@@dealerinfaith8039And The End also hurts Super Sonic. The Avatar's attacks alone were able to cause damage to Starfall Super Sonic, Super Sonic died when he didn't pick up enough speed to cross The End in the QTE and Cyber Super Sonic is completely injured just by going through The End
![Twenty One Pilots - The Line (from Arcane Season 2) [Official Audio]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/XCz7WUotXs8/mqdefault.jpg)
In all fairness to Solaris, they never actually defeated it, they overwrote its formation.
Solaris basically had to have its wifi severed to boot it out, and then have the timeline completely altered just to stop it from spawn camping again. Thanks to Shadow Generations we know it still can come back since half of itself still exists in the void space, still trying to exist.
This is contrasted with The End, that actually was defeated through force instead of the metaphysical equivalent of unplugging the controller.
From The End's perspective it probably believes it is stronger than Solaris, but that being due to not being as easily removed. This being a connection issue is a real weakness since it can't fight where it no longer exists, which The End doesn't have said flaw due to being more present in reality than Solaris is.
The End was still defeatable through force where Solaris couldn't be, though, and I think that means by power Solaris is stronger than The End. Or at least, what feats of its avatar we have seen.
In all likelyhood given the nature of the beings, a permanent draw seems the most reasonable take, since Solaris and The true End both in their true forms exist beyond the timeline and space-time. Whatever heirarchy of creatures those have we won't realistically get a power scale for, so it is what it is.
Great take
Mephiles was powerful enough to been sealed by Black Doom and the Time Eater in the most deep zone of the white space and even there is power was leaking, because he could get out of that separate zone he could easily take the Time Eater down and steal is power, and even after defeating him he wasn't destroy he is alive and conscious in the white space. and he is only an half of Solaris
Here’s the thing though… I don’t think this is the last we’ve seen from The End. Sonic only destroyed it’s avatar. Thus severing its connection to the physical world again. But I have a strong feeling that it could easily make a return.
@@TheLsp2011 Ian Flynn said The End was a one and done villain many times it's not coming back unless they do a generations 2.
@@TycitronI think words like those should be taken with a grain of salt... most people probably believed the same about Devil Doom, and even Mephiles to some extent, until Shadow Generations happened.
A few points I wanted to add to this
1. The End, like Solaris, can bypass Super Sonic's invulnerability. But The End apparently even managed to neutralize the power of the Emeralds in Final Horizon,being further amplified by the energy of cyber corruption. Which also makes me think that The End is an antithesis to the Chaos Emeralds (the Chaos Vs Order, Life Vs Death thing)
2. I believe that at least Supreme is almost equivalent to Super Sonic from Frontiers. He is the strongest of the 4, not for nothing was he used as a prison for The End, and furthermore, the fight is the only one where Super Sonic does not defeat him directly. The fight only ends because The End manages to escape the Titan due to the fight, as established by Sage "All we did was chase it out of its shell". The End would then have held off 2 opponents of Frontier's Super Sonic's level (Sonic and Supreme Sage) and almost won.
3. Solaris would not necessarily be at the level of 3 Super Forms, but rather it was necessary because he needed to be destroyed in the past, present and future at the same time, which would need 3 of them. It is even left to the possibility that he could be destroyed in one of the timelines, but it would not be enough. So technically, 1 Super Form would have the raw power to destroy Solaris
I love this idea
Super Sonic already had enough power to defeat Solaris on his own, but Solaris has two dangerous abilities, existing in three moments in time: past, present, future, and returning from death to become more powerful than before, the only reason, as you said, to defeat Solaris was to hit his consciousness three times at once.
I like this idea, but Ian Flynn confirmed that the end was egotistical and was over boasting its power and I don’t think the end neutralize the chaos emeralds. I think he just hit sonic hard enough to where he loses the emeralds like knuckles did in the original sonic three it is just that sonic had so much better control over them that he was able to gain back his super form.
@@jasondobbins9735 Infinite is honestly stronger than the End because his powers can wipe the strength of super sonic. He simply doesn’t know that.
@ no the end could take on two super level beings, infinite, and the death robot with the phantom Ruby only required three base form characters even if we included Phantom King it only took one supersonic to take him down. So no the end is strong heck, even when egg man upgraded it to the point that he gave him his own super form called light man supersonic was still stronger
So we have a Time God that can destroy all creation vs the an Abyssal God that can destroy all creation.
Seems fair.
Sonic be facing extinction events like it's just another tuesday in the Kirby universe nowdays, uh?
@@renookami4651the only difference is Kirby fights gods more often. Sonic just has to deal with eggman most of the time
These aren't your average spike balls on chains, fellas.
@drewwilson9938 Sonic genueinly has not had to deal with Eggman since like... Sonic 3 and Knuckles lmao.
All bosses after are these big, god-like creatures that Eggman loses control over and Sonic has to defeat.
Perfect Chaos, Biolizard, Metal Overlord, Solaris, Dark Gaia, etc.
@ccelite3782 sonic colors, sonic generations, sonic forces. Eggman was the big bad in all of those recent games. What are you on my guy?
Just pointing something out here, The time eater brought BACK a timeline that was obliterated (even if it was in White Space). While facing Shadow in his New Generations game, Mephilus points out that he needs to RESTORE himself to the timeline after escaping Shadow.
Sega knows fans want Mephiles to return. Right now he’s stuck in his own personal hell but depending on how Sega receives things we could see Mephiles come back as a main villain in a big way but he would need a big power boost to compete with the heroes because Iblis no long exist and he can’t become Solaris ever again.
@@JuwanBuchanan Infinite, the Ruby, and Eggman.
@@JuwanBuchananMephiles is a manipulator more than he is a brawler, even if he's powercrept his ability to travel unrestricted through time with destructive intent is more than enough to make him a force to be reckoned with... god forbid he gets a hold on the 7 Chaos Emeralds and actually draws out their power.
Tbf i think that it doesnt make too much sense because (yes i know it's the canon explenation) it makes the time eater seem stronger or at least on a comparable scale as Solaris because apparently the time eater can act outside of existence itself. I would just be happy that we got to see Mephiles/Iblis in generations again, and not think too much about it from a lore standpoint
@@justice8718 Exactly. Those 3 will find a way to bring Mephiles back into the main timeline somehow. With his return, memories from Sonic 06 will start back flooding. Also, how do they explain Silver's existence if 06 was rewritten or written out? I think this could lead into a Silver year who wholeheartedly needs a reboot much more than Shadow.
Another thing to point out too for The End is that the director of Sonic Frontiers, Morio Kishimoto, has stated on Twitter and on the launch party stream for Frontiers that The End is the personification of death itself. And its avatar that we see being the moon isn't its true avatar form. As Morio also stated that Sonic and Sage saw something completely different from us in-game. Meanwhile, Solaris' true form is that of a white flame that which Elise blew out in the end of Sonic 06 which caused the game's events to not happen.
And while Solaris was sealed inside of a Soleanna lab, The End was sealed inside Cyberspace, which they said the ancients built an entire reality just to contain it bending space-time in the process using the powers of the Chaos Emeralds. And speaking of the emeralds, The End was able to force Super Sonic out of both of his Super Forms with one of his attacks. He's the only villain in the series to have done that from sheer power alone mid-fight.
Technically, base form Knuckles has punched Sonic out of his Super state in Sonic 3 but the point still stands.
Though knowing how things usually are in long-running franchises, knocking Sonic out of his Super form might become a new trope to show how powerful a threat is. JL Season 1 Superman levels of the plot having villian pull plot magic on Super Sonic to show how strong they are since he's relevant again.
@@rayvenkman2087Knuckles is the keeper of the Master Emerald, so he can use its energy. Also, it was a surprise attack while Starfall Super Sonic was trying to stop The End's attack.
@@rayvenkman2087 he said "only villain that can do it" - not the only character
yes it is possible to knock sonic out of his super form, but the end took him out of his ASCENDED super form, which is vastly more powerful than his 1st super form, even Knux cant do that
"He's the only villain in the series to have done that from sheer power alone mid-fight" Big Arms would like a word
I'm pretty sure Dark Gaia and the Titans can do the same
Wait if Sonic remembers the events of 06 then why doesn’t Shadow or anyone else?
During Frontiers, Tails would compare the The Ends power to Dark Gaia, suggesting that was the most powerful adversary they remembered fighting. There was never any mention of Solaris.
Apparently there's both evidence of Sonic remembering as well as not. That being said, maybe Sonic remembers because he was the only one present when Solaris was erased. Well... Him and Elise, at least. And the end of 06 seems to imply that even if she DOESN'T remember, she still feels somewhat happy with the mere presence of Sonic and recognizes it when he passes by. So maybe it's a similar case for Sonic, he does somewhat remember, but at the same time doesn't.
Everyone in 06 subconsciously remembers the events, giving them deja vu when anything similar to that game happens. The memories are still there, but so foggy, it's as if they don't have them.
Sonic and Elise probably have the clearest (but still foggy) memories of 06, since they were the ones who blew out the candle in the first place.
@@AtomicoMacacoWhat about Blaze, there's straight dialogue of her in Sonic Generation not expecting to see Crisis City again. Or does that also count as it being a foggy memory?
@@sacredpower7530 Colors DS literally shows her first interaction with Silver. She didn't know him but felt as if they had worked together before. So yeah, Blaze remembering Crisis City can either be a continuity error or just some instance of her both remembering and not remembering at the same time.
@AtomicoMacaco Then what about Team Sonic Racing (the game is canon) where Sonic asks Silver if he remembers that he tried to kill him when they first met each other? Not talking about Sonic Rivals 1 because they weren't that violent to one another in that game compared to 06.
To add to the point of characters getting much stronger as the games go on… Shadow needed super form to defeat Devil Doom in Shadow 05. However in Shadow Generations, he only needed ONE chaos emerald and mastery of the Doom Powers (which is literally just his own power that comes from his Black Arms DNA) to defeat not only Devil Doom… but an UPGRADED Devil Doom, in the form of Neo Devil Doom. And Generations Black Doom is LEAGUES beyond his 2005 counterpart.
Not to mention Devil Doom grows much stronger as Shadow gets stronger as well.
Doom given Shadow the power of super shadow.
GREAT GAMING RIGHT SOLARIS VS THE END ISN'T CLOSE VIDEO.
Since Solaris wiped out the entire dimension upon its creation (with only a few minor exceptions for some iconic landmarks that would soon be destroyed anyway) technically speaking Solaris most likely destroyed the Starfall islands along with any remnants of the ancient’s technology. Meaning Solaris has technically already killed The End.
It wasn’t really a fight, but it just goes to show that it’s very possible Solaris could eliminate the end simply by existing
This. The End is Multiversal+ but Solaris is Outerversal, it represents an entire concept and cannot be destroyed. Yeah, its not really a "fight" because we're hitting really deep ideas of existence here.
Your logic doesnt make any sense. How does destroying an isIand mean he desteoyes the end? Yeah he destroyed the starfaII isIands but why does that mean The End is destroyed too? Considering The End scales to a much stronger sonic than the one solaris foughy, id say he was doing just fine.
@@ORLY911 leave the damn kitchen before the whole neighborhood goes up in flame
@@uboa8060😂
@@Replies.Delete.Sometimes.IDKy.cyberspace is on the starfall islands and the end was sealed in cyberspace
It's kinda debatable when it comes to Sonic remembering 06, as in Sonic Rivals when Silver was reintroduced to the franchises, Sonic had no clue on who he is. Not to mention Mephiles actually knowing about his fate yet Shadow has no recollection of him. I do feel like Mephiles in Shadow Generations basically confirms alternate timelines, and we have no solid evidence if Sonic even remembers 06 we just know at the end of the game he visits Soleanna again but it could've just been to see the festival
Considering how the last cutscene plays out, I'm pretty sure Sonic knows about the events of 06.
@martinaguiluz4063 well again we don't entirely know for sure I'm not denying that the End is stronger I'm just saying eith context
They don't remember altho sometimes they kinda gets nostalgia or glimpse in a form of deja vu whenever they interact. In the colours ds when silver and blaze meet they feel like they have worked together before and when blaze finds herself in generations there is a dialogue which says something like "I never thought I would find myself back in crysis city"
@TheBengaliG which shouldn't make sense Blaze remembers Crisis City as Iblis is the cause of it, and Mephiles basically confirms that Mephiles and Iblis are trapped in White Space
Generations confirms he still knows about the events of 06
People still don't realize that 06 has been hyper powercrept to hell and back. It was fun and all to pretend that solaris and mephilies were still top dog during the boost era games but theres no argument anymore its time to stop the cope
Ian the guy who writes the comics said Solaris is top dog
@@benisaac5615and he’s the writer for frontiers too, so
@@TheRiskyroar Pretty sure thats the same person.
The guy who writes the stories says Solaris is the most powerful still. And he literally wrote the End's dialogue.
Writers are gonna have to make villains stop lying or overestimating themselves, powerscalers are going to think they're being honest and accurate.
@@DeadEye364 yeah i meant he writes the comics and wrote frontiers
Ian Flynn has gone on record saying that the End is only the second strongest being Sonic has fought, with the strongest being Solaris
Ian Flynn also said that chaos control doesn’t warp time and space once. Ian Flynn makes mistakes
@@Vivacy_Editzz That would sound valid if he wasn't literally the person who created the character of THE END. Not only did he say that THE END would lose, but he even claimed that they are on such different scales that it wouldn't even be considered a matchup.
When did he say that? Literaly everything about the end says that it's the strongest foe that sonic has ever faced
@@carlosgarabatosferro883 yeah the videos logic is cooked. To me its like comparing Azathoth with Yog Sothoth, Azathoth can blink the universe to nothing upon waking, but Yog is literally the binding force between all realities, time and space, including the concept of Azathoth, it cannot be extinguished. The End is Universal, maybe multiversal+ if we're being generous and its not just talking itself up, while Solaris is outerversal entirely as its part of the fabric of everything in all realities and time.
as a Cthulhu Mythos dude this discussion really is just the Sonic version of Yog vs Azathoth.
About more complicated stuff@@Vivacy_Editzz
As many have pointed out, Ian Flynn has said Solaris is the stronger of the two. As well as the fact we never actually beat Solaris, we only sever its connection. As a Cthulhu Mythos guy, this video is basically the Sonic version of Yog Sothoth vs Azathoth. I'll explain.
Yog Sothoth is a being that is literally part of the fabric of all time, space, and all realities, his form is literally the make up of all universes and time. Past, present, future, Yog Sothoth is the key _and_ the gate. He is simultaneously binded to all but also locked outside of it. Azathoth is a daemon sultan who rests eternally, if he were to wake up, it would blink the multiverse out of existence like a dream. However, what it can destroy is limited to the physical destruction of realities, what we know of as "real" but not the concept. Yog Sothoth is the concept, whom also exists outside of it. The traditional name of Lovecrafts verse is "Yog Sothothery" as it is all, literally Yog Sothoth, all under him and is him.
Solaris is like Yog and The End is like Azathoth. One embodies a concept and all reality (including Azathoth) while the other can destroy what that concept stands for but not the concept itself. Thus, The End is not stronger than Solaris. The End/Azathoth is Multiversal+ while Solaris/Yog Sothoth is Outerversal. They embody two different levels of dimensionality.
You could argue different points especially going off feats, but generally speaking in all these vs debates, the being that literally is the entire concept of something is by default stronger than a destroyer entity or embodiment of death.
Its a good thing Ian didn't expand on cyberspace cause the end would have been stronger
@@Lonelysum you said that like it's a bad thing.
@@Unknown-jk7rs I mean Ian kinda contradicts what he writes sometimes so it was for the best
If Ian has said that he is wrong and is contradicted by the primary source material(the games) and Ian actually said in his bumblekast that The End is perhaps and possibly the strongest foe sonic has encountered so far. Whatever else Ian said that is contradicts the true source material has been debunked.
Tbh this could be interpreted as in both entities being different "Yog Sotoths". In 06 the hedgehogs beat the main Solaris outside of space-time and across different timelines, and time travel before its creation to make it impossible for it to return. In Frontiers a much stronger Sonic beats one avatar of The End inside the universe but by virtue of it just being an Avatar it implies that main big one hasn't manifested itself inside what we know as existence.
Tl;dr: They both are eldritch entities that could be very well equal in power, but they were represented in the games in 2 different ways.
Sonic doesn't remember the events of 06 since in Shadow's campaign Mephiles outright says he is no longer part of the timeline and shadow has no memory of him. The end could NOT be referring to Solaris. It was more likely referring to Chaos, Dark Gia, Jin, for the gods and N. Wisp Armor, Metal, Time Eater, for the machines.
The whole argument that "sonic gets stronger with age" should also be taken with FAR more grains of salt. While it is true to a degree, it can't explain everything cus of bad writing. He didn't DO anything to get stronger when he fought Infinite. He was locked up for months, went on some jogging trips and was conveniently strong enough. Also keep in mind that Infinite beat sonic by using Shadow, Zavok, Chaos, and Metal to back him up. Clones that brought sonic to his knees the first time but by the end of the game could be defeated by "Jake the dog using a wispon" . An inconsistency that Infinite himself is a victim of when you fight him as the avatar. In the final battle it should also be noted that he only took on sonic by HIMSELF.
Metal also causes this argument to fall apart because if Sonic really does get stronger by such a massive degree in a matter of days, Eggman should NEVER have been able to upgrade him enough to STILL stalemate him after cd and yet can in the SAME form. If he could that means that Eggy is intentionally limiting his most prized badnik because he wants to let sonic win.
Takashi Izuka (I think) also said that the titians in frontiers are each AS POWERFUL as the previous final bosses that sonic has faced. That can't really be the case though since that contradicts the previous statement. Either the former or latter are true, it CAN'T be both.
Also because the timeline was erased the 06 cast are fundementally different people than the modern ones. It's not that they don't remember the events of 06, but they never experienced them to begin with. They aren't an x-year younger version of them and for all practical purposes that cast "died" when the candle was blown out and the universe restarted. For all we know, the 06 cast were stronger version of the two. Maybe not? Who knows?
Comparing Time Eater to Solaris is also complicated because it was clearly weak enough to be controlled by the Eggmans, and it's way of annihilating time and space is far different than Solaris for two notable reasons.
1: Solaris was described as a "super dimensional being" who could casually consume universes "for breakfeast", and caused reality to fall apart just by existing. Not through a conscious effort, but by being a thing that exists.
2: Upon it's defeat, reality itself didn't collapse and forcefully restructure, the damage it can do to reality isn't on the same level if time and space can return to normality.
Another thing to keep in mind is that Mephiles wasn't brought back just for nostalgia. It is acknowlegded IN UNIVERSE that the 06 timeline is no more and Mephiles still passed over from the previous timeline. Even after everything the cast did, the super fight, the candle, the universal restructure, there was still enough of him left that the time eater could reach into the previous timeline and bring not only him but parts relevant to him. This isn't limited to just Mephiles either since crisis city is still around and had iblis spawn to boot.
Solaris was a being unbound by the concept of time that destroys dimensions, timelines, and space. In other words, it existed above those concepts. It is able to exist at it's three different points simultaneously with reality dying there as well. Keep in mind Eggman said, they didn't defeat his form but destroyed it's consciousness
Finally the Ends statements about being all powerful while impressive are case of telling without showing. It seems that Ian wanted The End to be the next Solaris, acting closer to a force of nature than a sentient being, but despite that we only see it destroy planets at best. If it's goal was to return the universe to a neutral state, then why couldn't it do so before the ancients sealed it by just willing it (presumably when at it's best)? One major thing that you gloss over is that The End said that the ancients built an entire reality to imprison it.
Who here was stated to eat realties for breakfast?
The End is definitely a threat to the greater universe but only seems to be one one planet, probably star system at a time and the only thing it has on it's side is that it can nuetrualize the Chaos Emeralds, something that as seen in unleashed can be done by simply having energy that is their antithesis.
Yeah, I’d probably put the end more on the level of something like devil doom than Solaris, definitely powerful, but would have to go 1 planet at a time to execute the big plan
I saw a video that explained the Sonic memory thing and it seems like Sonic is kind of remembering little by little since I think it was in Rivals or another game but when he meets Silver he talks about their last meeting being kind of explosive and Silver says he doesn't remember anything about it (and Silver himself in some game talks about how he finds it strange that he feels that Sonic and he fought together before).
Well, even though it is very unconscious at many moments, there is a lot of basis since Sonic base defeated Perfect Chaos and was still comparable (ok with Shadow not using Doom Powers but Sonic was crashing and running along with him) to a Shadow who faced many powerful enemies, The oc character I don't know what to say honestly.
Well Eggman is a genius so maybe he could give Metal Sonic a speed advantage temporarily against Sonic where Eggman analyzes the previous speed and tries to make metal Sonic have an even greater speed but Sonic usually beats Metal Sonic so I don't see inconsistency.
Sort of to emphasize that they are on the level of beings that Super Sonic is needed for, however how can we say that if this Super Sonic is much stronger than the supers of the past, it wasn't a fight that was much to the advantage of the titans and even Tails himself said that if I remember correctly they could be stronger than Dark Gaia itself who could already damage a super form.
I agree with the other parts so I'll skip it.
The end is actually a bit solid with its lines, it's simply stronger than Super Sonic, which is much stronger than the previous supers, and this Sonic in one of the endings had help from the supreme and in the other Sonic used Cyber corruption to increase the power of Super Sonic and Sonic had to go even further beyond the limits of his Skyfall Super Sonic form and become Cyber Sonic who honestly has more feats than the 3 super hedgehogs (and if I remember in the 06 guide it was already said that Super Sonic was enough but Solaris existed in three time periods so it needed all three to go to different points in time)
In sonic team racing, sonic calls back 06.
The End did it with raw power, not just with a ability like the other methods other characters did (also he did that to a super power up version)
Infinite was never stronger than Sonic, the only reason he beat him in their first encounter was because he caught Sonic off guard with his speed and clones. Sonic after sitting around like a jobber for 3 months came back and mid diffed Infinite so hard he just blipped out of existence and never came back.
I love the end, and I would count it as likely the second most powerful thing in the sonic universe, but how I look at it is the end is a planet destroyer, Solaris is a timeline destroyer. They are not on the same level
The end had to go planet by planet and its quest to eradicate all chaos in the universe. The end nearly wiped out all possible dimensions and timelines just by being reborn. That’s before it even actively tries to destroy anything.
Edit: it should be noted that the most powerful attack we see The End perform was destroying a planet with a single laser. That still sensed higher than super sonic since it shown in sonic unleashed that the chaos emeralds would need to use all their power to split the planet open.
That is as far as The End’s power goes. Anything else the end states is only things it claims to be able to do. I see it if the character can’t back up the statement with evidence it shouldn’t be counted, especially the author of the game directly, stated that The End was bluffing
The end wasn't trying to destroy universes. It could if it wanted tom the end has multiple statements of being the strongest amd multiple feats
@@reggielacey2235
The end has never shown the capability to destroy the universe. The highest we’ve seen of its attack power is casually destroying a plant.
It should also be noted that Ian Flynn, the writer for sonic frontiers has stated that The End was bluffing. It wanted to sound superior in its final moments. He also directly stated that Solaris is more powerful than The End.
It really doesn’t get much more official than that
@@comicfan1324what if Ian was bluffing himself and he’s got other plans he doesn’t want to spoil, and what if when he said The End was bluffing, it was trying to terminate Super Sonic but failed at doing so, and is now retreating for a while to get stronger and stronger and eventually surpass all limits…
THIS!
Broski says exactly what i am thinking. When the end says 'it'll destroy everything' it can only imply (based on the evidence we have) that it would go death star on everyone. Its threats were no where close to destroying time itself! No hate to the guy, but dude in the video should have used more evidence and logical thinking instead of relying on empty threats and blowing open ended implications outta proportion!
(I shouldn't be so pissed about the contrasting power levels of fictional entities but the Solaris disrespect man, we cant have that XD )
Solaris is the stronger of the two, and the End's statement that it's stronger than any of Sonic's previous foes is either a lie or an incorrect assumption on its part. We know this because the man that wrote the End's dialogue, Ian Flynn (current main writer for the series), directly stated that Solaris is still the most powerful entity in the series, and the End is in second place. Like, there's not really any arguing when the dude who writes the End's dialogue says the End is wrong.
I fact, this is fairly obvious from how they're presented in the game. The End is a threat, yes, but Solaris devours the entire dimension that the games take place in _instantly_ upon its birth. The End never gets as far as Solaris did- If it could, then Sonic and co. being present where it appeared wouldn't have mattered at all, they would've been destroyed before they could mount a defence.
It's either lying to try and spook Sonic or it's underestimating some of his past foes.
Why are you just denying the end being the strongest. The statement from the author should just be better
@@Purple_23184Even without the statement, The End is weaker. The moment Solaris existed almost everything in time and space was erased
@ the your proof is? The whole video debunks u if u watched it what ever helps u cope
@@MeepinMehthe end outscales in AP so I don’t think this feat means anything when the end fought a far stronger super sonic
Can I get a source for Ian saying Solaris is the strongest enemy Sonic had Faced? And when was this statement made? Before or after frontiers? Before or after the horizon dlc?
I wonder if the egg wizard got retconed to be weaker than solaris, because the same sonic that folded solaris told blaze with a straight face "we can't win this one"
Also something I wanna say that the solaris events weren't 3 hedgehogs fighting the same solaris, they were fighting one solaris each, super sonic alone could defeat one solaris
To be fair, Solaris wasn't actually "killed" , it was literally *expelled* from the timeline. Past, Present and Future. Nothing less would have worked.
Mephiles's continued existence in The Void and his knowledge that he technically doesn't exist, tells me that he, and by extension Solaris, is truly *immortal*
Its why weakening him and then sealing him inside the Scepter of Darkness is the only way to stop him.
Whereas, at the end of the day, The End is a mainly *physical being* that can actually be *traditionally killed*
4:54
you could've used sonic generations to drive home the point sonic gets stronger every second. sonic needed a super form in adventure to deal with perfect chaos. in generations, all it takes is his base form. good video btw
You can honestly use multiple examples, Adventure 1, Chaos 0 destroys the ME and the energy inside of it, that alone would scale above Super Sonic and Hyper Sonic from 3&K which both use a lesser amount of energy
My only issue is that Ian Flynn, the guy who wrote Frontiers's script, has said he believes Solaris is still more powerful than The End. At the very least though, I believe we can agree that these two are the most powerful threats Sonic has ever faced.
Nope dark Gia is stronger then solaris same for infinite
@Sonicdxunleashed Solaris is capable of reality warping, time travel and *_EATING ENTIRE TIMELINES/DIMENSIONS_* at a time. Dark Gaia is a planet level threat at best. I do not believe Infinite comes close to matching Solaris either.
My understanding is this, Solaris still exists in pieces as it's an super-dimensional lifeform. It may have been erased in 06's timeline, i.e. Dimension A, but that doesn't get rid of any of its fragments which potentially exist elsewhere. Overtime Solaris has been trying to restore itself through these fragments, whether it be through Time Eater and or Phantom Ruby, every time ending with a sun being utilized as a symbol of the fallen Sun God. Time Eater in final boss has a sun accompany and hurtles towards the two Sonic's during its final attack. Infinite was allured by the Phantom Ruby for whatever reason to bring the sun down onto the Earth. Until all of Solaris's fragments have been destroyed it'll keep coming back. That's how powerful Solaris truly is. That's why we don't get a specific known origin of the Time Eater nor Phantom Ruby. (Not only did Phantom Ruby cause Infinite to levitate exactly like Mephiles The Dark, in his theme song's official music video has his yellow eye turn a glowing green throughout. Much like again Mephiles's own glowing green eyes when in his crystal form. To make things more interesting Sonic Forces was also round about the time Mephiles started randomly getting official merch from SEGA.) In addition, Time Eater in despite of essentially being mindless still suspiciously managed to bring back Iblis and Mephiles in addition to finally with Kingdom Valley Solaris's iconography itself. All we know is that Time Eater is a primordial essence according to the rewrite, primordial being something that exists beyond or before time and both Solaris and Time Eater seem to consume time in the exact same manner, so if it's primordial essence of anything it'd be Solaris hence why Time Eater angrily chucks a sun.
Also have to take into account the temporal omnipresence of Solaris, a Super Form was enough to defeat him, but Solaris existed in the past, present and future, so it didn't matter if they defeated him in one era, if they didn't do it in all of them, Solaris would continue to exist, so Sonic, Shadow and Silver had to divide themselves into three eras in order to each defeat their own Solaris.
This is a nice video. Now I'm wondering if you would be willing to do a power ranking of every Sonic final boss from weakest to strongest as a follow up to this at some point.
Winning the Solaris boss seems to have only sent them to the origin of Solaris. The flame. The point in which it was at its weakest. If they hadn’t made it there and blew out the flame, Solaris couldn’t be stopped. All they did was knock it out and get sent thru time.
Defeating The End did mean its destruction. In the base game and the Final Horizons endings. It required sheer force to destroy it. They didn’t need to travel thru time to its origin.
I think it’s most likely that the End and Solaris would battle to a standstill. Neither able to destroy the other. Tho Solaris being able to exist at every point in time may mean it could outlast The End and put power it over time.
The end has defeated a stronger sonic which outscales super triple sss
Didn't Ian Flynn state that The End is the second most powerful Solaris at some point? With that, I feel like The End was just being cocky by claiming to be infinite compared to an omnipotent/omnipresent opponent like Solaris. But that's just my opinion. His biggest feat we've seen was planetary annihilation, and we can't confirm if that was his full power.
Plus, we dont know how far the cyber energy enhanced the chaos emeralds power in SS2 or CS compared to the combined power of 3 super hedgehogs.
I honestly wish the end would return as a threat again. Hearing the dialogue first time made me feel dreadful, like i eas fighting for nothing
@@FirestoneAnimation realistically I think it’s a “death of the author fallacy”
Since the overwhelming evidence contradicting Ian Flynns comments makes it redundant to me
Unless you believe the 06 super forms can beat all 4 titans in a 3v4….. the same guys that could give Frontiers Super Sonic a good fight
@TheGamingRift11 Thats true. That's true
ian also said archie sonic would lose to anime goku so i wouldnt take anything he says seriously
Ian is not great at power scaling he seems to think just cause a character is universal means he can destroy universes nope that means a character is on the same level as a being that can destroy them it’s like saying super sonic is weaker than the final bosses cause it isn’t as destructive despite the fact SUPER SONIC BEATS THEM now I don’t think the end can kill Solaris but that’s due to hax not attack potency I think the End is like super sonic not as widely destructive as Solaris but much more concentrated power I mean it is the only opponent sonic needed to go beyond super sonic for and the 06 trio were fully confident in beating Solaris solo they just needed to deal with his hax
@@Reset2150676Did Ian also say that around Sonic Lost World, Archie Sonic & Modern Sonic are equal?
Literally Ian Flyn, the game scriptwriter, gave the victory to Solaris when he was asked this question.
Literally ian flynn who wrote the diaIouge for The End made the end say solaris was finite compared to it.
@@Replies.Delete.Sometimes.IDKy. antagonists tell the truth about themselves and can be trusted always
This was BEFORE the Final Horizon.
@@Replies.Delete.Sometimes.IDKy. And then Ian said that most of those dialogues were merely a distorted and heightened view that THE END has of itself.
@@ИльфатГалимов-э6фThe expansion where THE END is oneshotted by an attack? That expansion does more damage than anything to the character
With these 2 dieties in the sonic universe, my question is can thr phantom Ruby make illusions of them?
This fight actually happened canonically. In '06, Solaris wiped out reality through the simple act of existing. This includes (but is not limited to): The End.
Case Closed, The End is an "inevitability", but Solaris is able to do its thing just by existing. Even if it was somehow in one of the small pockets of time that survived, Sonic and co. never beat Solaris, they just lobotomized and aborted it.
The end solos Solaris
@Sonicdxunleashed except canonically where Solaris defeated The End. In a fight where it was "Solaris vs. The End plus just about every single thing in all of creation at every point in time, including The End at the height of its power from every point it was at the height of its power." So canonically an indefinite number of The End went up against Solaris simultaneously... and LOST.
@murraymurphy85 what are you talking about the end never fought Solaris
@Sonicdxunleashed in 06, Solaris erases all realities and points in time. The End exists in at least one of those realities. Ergo, The End was destroyed by Solaris canonically. Maybe The End was putting up a fight off-screen, but it would've been an infinite number of The End failing to defeat a single Solaris. Ergo Solaris wins canonically.
@murraymurphy85 that's not how it works
I wonder about silver.
I think that he deserves the title of "the ultimate lifeform" waaaayyy more than shadow.
in the sonicverse the characters are categorized on three types:speed flight and power.
silver's telekinesis makes him a flight type, but he is also capable of lifiting really heavy stuff and he is pretty fast, thus technically qualifying for all 3 types.
Ian said The End was hyping itself up and lying out of desperation. I trust him, which makes it even more fucking disappointing with how up-played the character was. Ian doesnt really know how to deliver on such grandeur, cosmic villains it seems
To be fair, I don’t know how you’re meant to sell an eldritch personification of entropy itself in the mediocre galaga clone you’re stuck with for a final boss level. Maybe in a game given more time it could’ve worked a bit better.
@gordonfreeman5735 it would've worked just fine cuz it felt like you didn't truly end it(lol), maybe destroy one of its avatars. But the way Ian talked about and ended it made it seem like it wasn't an eldritch abomination, but just a regular cosmic lifeform. Like, sure its visually unfathomable since everyone sees something different but it's fairly clear that it intentionally hid itself as a moon for camouflage given how Ian described it
@@ashemabahumat4173 When did ian say this?
@devanplays3509 podcast episode, no idea which one it was unfortunately. But again, sounded like he was annoyed having to explain it. Kinda felt like he just assumed that's how it would be taken or that it should've been obvious, so I take that like he didn't really get that he overhyped the character
@devanplays3509 forgot to mention that while I dont remember the exact time he said it, I _think_ he brought it up a few mo ths after the game dropped and once again after Superstars did due to the cameo it made
The End is my favorite villian ine history of Sonic. It's such a powerful being and the way it talks about destroying everything as if it were no big chore just makes me love this character more. I don't rlly know how to explain why I love this character so much, but I really do. I hope we get to see The Ends truest form in Sonic Frontiers: 2
2:58 sonic does remember the 06 events?? How is that possible I thought no one did, hell even MEPHILES states that shadow forgot about him, and shadow does not even remember him anyway
Sonic is the only one who remembers
Crisis city dude
@@PauloH100Proof? Where and when was this confirmed?
@@Dripichigo-m7j Crisis City being in Sonic Gens doesn’t mean he remembers the events. The Time Eater is able to “bring back” erased events from the timeline such as Crisis City and Mephiles, but that doesn’t mean Sonic or Shadow remember them.
@@seabass_sslgenerations the collection room is a room that’s based on Sonic’s memories and 06 related stuff is in the collection room
I do like that one is the sun, the other is the moon. Kind of cool that it's the moon god winning out though.
Gens doesn't confirm Sonic remembers 06. Rivals shows that he forgets it.
And sonic team racing confirms he remembers it because he brings it up to silver.
@Replies.Delete.Sometimes.IDKy. Is Sonic a troll
One is the embodiment of the time itself
The other of both Death and Order.
Both things are Eternal 😅😅😅
Solaris in my opinion deserves to be the strongest because it is omnipotent and has better feats than The End.
Not really
@john_negs7720 Yes really but I respect your opinion just remember The End is arrogant
@@TabuuRulesTheSmashVerse2008 the ends statements don’t get contradicted so 😂
@@john_negs7720 The End's statements are nothing compared to Solaris feats
@ fighting a far stronger super sonic makes the statement consistent lol
Solaris was K.O'd, but not entirely defeated. Sonic had to get rid of that timeline to kinda "defeat" Solaris.
Also Ian Flynn already confirmed on his twitter that The End was bluffing. All It was saying was just out of it's ass to intimidate Sonic, and that it will not appear again since It was destroyed.
(Also, you know who else was all "never ending, undefeatable, so intimidating and all powerful"? Infinite. And we all know how that ended up)
So yeah, Solaris wins by a loooong shot.
It was not bluffing. Watch Bumble Kast November 13, 2023.
Except uh, even super sonic2 alone wasnt enpugh for it so he went full on fleetway mode
Play final horizon
The End which we observe as a moon is simply a incarnation/avatar of its true form.
Going through ingame dialogue it seems it heavily corrosponds to Platos theory of forms.
It stated to look different based on the observer altering its visual presentation based on how the observer believes death looks like.
This would inherently make it both formless and intelligble aswell as archetypal in nature since it would always be the perfect representation of death to any observer.
Its also shown the ability to destroy other abstract entities/thoughts like the phantom lights, which are shapless/formless and abstract ideas of the ancients.
It also describing itself as infinite showing its eternal and transcendental in nature.
Such statements would make it a Type 1 Universal Concept. Meaning its true form is above all reality beyond dimensions of geometrical/Euclidean properties and omnipresent wherever death/the concept of death/order exists. Its true form would be inherently multiversal to generally outerversal scaling wise.
You can imagine it similarly to a Universal Constant throughout all of existence and beyond anbound by ideas like space or time.
Solaris atbest might be able to destroy its incarnations which are strong and fast by themselves, but its true form would be an inaccessible/transinfinte layers of existence above solaris and even Solaris is bound by the concept of death. So in a sense the End has already beaten Solaris.
and its abilities/hax are overall comparable if not better to Solaris.
Its harder/impossible to argue that solaris is a concept of similar magnitude to the End
The End(incarnation) =< Solaris
I also want to mention that in Sonic x Shadow generations which is the remake of Sonic generations it's shown that frontiers happens before it which means Sonic got way more powerful form frontiers and also fought the Time eater
Actually during the game when talking to Gerald, Shadow says that he's visiting places he's never seen before. Gerald suggests that the stages in the game are not only ones from the past but also from the future, meaning stuff like Forces and Frontiers happens after.
The real reason Chaos Island was added was because that engine already had assets ready from that game and it was less work than making new assets from a different level.
Here's another thing... if you takes the damage of Super Sonic 2 and compare it to the damage dealt before powering up, you have the power of 10.25x Super Sonics. It took 7.25 more Super Sonics to even match a FRACTION of The Ends power. As you said even if The End can't kill Solaris, Solaris couldn't even scratch the "avatar" of The End that we fight in-game. I'd say a draw is definetly the outcome.
Okay but Sonic was still nerfed in frontiers tho? At most starfall super sonic is like whatever actual regular super sonic levels of strength in frontiers since it’s definitely stronger than generations
Solaris wins only by virtue of needing 3 supersonic tier characters in 3 different timelines to be defeated (which the end is seemingly incapable of), but the end would beat any individual solaris in any given time. Thats my 2 cents at least
There IS no individual Solaris. Solaris is omnipresent in ALL time, that's why the super hedgehogs had to defeat it in multiple points in time simultaneously.
@RudockAviar I know that, I meant hyppthetically speaking
@@undergalaxy775 the end solos
2:48 But Solaris was erased from Sonic's memory after the events of Sonic 06, you say it's confirmed in generations that he remember's but if that's the case why does Shadow also remember Mephilis? Great video!
Shadow doesn’t remember Mephilies. That’s why he’s all “Don’t you remember me, Shadow? You haven’t forgotten me again, have you?” And all that. Only Sonic was there to erase Solaris along with Elise and he even references Silver trying to kill him in (the JP version of) Team Sonic Racing but Silver doesn’t remember either.
I dunno bub. Solaris wasn’t necessarily beaten by them. Rather, the timelines it inhabited collapsed back to the singular point of when the king of Soleanna brought it into the physical world. Elise blew out the flame, creating a paradox. It took a time paradox to destroy Solaris, and simultaneous attacks in 3 separate timelines to get it to that point. The End isn’t capable of creating that paradox. I’d call that a permanent draw, effectively masking Solaris and The End the new gods of the next creative cycle with Solaris being order and The End being chaos.
Infinite was stated to be sonic strongest enemy yet. Infinite > Solaris and sonic beat infinite in base and was also capable of beating the death egg robot which was stated to transcend infinite once again in base. Base current sonic >>Solaris lol 😂
@@Vivacy_EditzzExcept nothing about Infinite in Forces really screams heavy hitters other than the fact he whooped Sonic's ass on their first go around but that's a very common trope in fiction where the villian floors the hero in the first encounter and nothing that really indicates he's got the power levels to keep Sonic on the backfoot.
The fact Sonic beat him in base form doesn't really help it. If he used Super Sonic against him, maybe there would be weight behind it.
But at the end of the day, Forces is Forces.
@@rayvenkman2087 Nah, it's supported by the other games that Sonic just, grows that fast. Take Unleashed to Black Knight for example, a post unleashed Sonic is stated by King Arthur to not be worth killing, and in 3 days Sonic becomes strong enough to literally cook him
In Dragon Ball terms, it's Zamasu (Solaris) vs Omega Shenron (THE END)
Dont waste 9 minutes listening to this guy yapping, Solaris wins, thats all
FR DUDE THANK YOU!! I'M GOING NUTS WITH HOW MANY PEOPLE REALLY THINK A PURPLE FUCKING ROCK BEATS A EXISTENCE ERASING SUN GOD WHO EXISTS INFINITELY IN ALL POINTS OF TIME!!! THE END GLAZING IS RIDICULOUS!!!
No. Hes old news. He Iost to a weaker sonic than the one the End fought.
Modern Sonic wouldn't still beat Solaris by his own, so I don't know what you talking about. Not in any form, Solaris needed 3 beings boosted by the power of the 7 "Miracle Gems" (Chais Emeralds) to be beat in every point in time, no way the power creep matters for this comparison. You will never see Sonic doing to Solaris what he did to Perfect Chaos in Generations. All you could argue for is that Solaris lacks the attack power to beat the end (which I agree). In retrospective, however, he could just consume the end's very existence in the timeline after the end completely fails to beat Solaris in every point in time... Yes, the end can not travel in time, if he could the story would be very, very different. Even the Time Earter could erase the end while being much weaker in terms of raw strength compared to Solaris and the end. The end's overconfidence in it's strength would be his demise against beings who actually got the power to erase you from existence...
True, the end can’t kill Solaris so in a realistic fight Solaris wins
Solaris cant kiII The End because its literally dea th IoI. So unless it scales to current sonic, its not beating the end. Not to mention the end will just tank all its atks because, well, its stronger.
Why does the sonic franchise come up with such creative and powerful monsters?
Ok i got a question for you
Does the end have any time manipulation immunity if lets say solaris decides to freeze all time?
And not to mention? You didn't account for all Solaris abilities.
Also Solaris is a multiverse level threat, the end is only universal.
The End was sealed in Cyberspace, which was created by the power of the Chaos Emeralds, so yes, he should be immune. In addition, before the battle in the FH, it says that shall perish and return to order, to oblivion, which is more or less similar to what Solaris did.
The End which we observe as a moon is simply a incarnation/avatar of its true form.
Going through ingame dialogue it seems it heavily corrosponds to Platos theory of forms.
It stated to look different based on the observer altering its visual presentation based on how the observer believes death looks like.
This would inherently make it both formless and intelligble aswell as archetypal in nature since it would always be the perfect representation of death to any observer.
Its also shown the ability to destroy other abstract entities/thoughts like the phantom lights, which are shapless/formless and abstract ideas of the ancients.
It also describing itself as infinite showing its eternal and transcendental in nature.
Such statements would make it a Type 1 Universal Concept. Meaning its true form is above all reality beyond dimensions of geometrical/Euclidean properties and omnipresent wherever death/the concept of death/order exists. Its true form would be inherently multiversal to generally outerversal scaling wise.
You can imagine it similarly to a Universal Constant throughout all of existence and beyond anbound by ideas like space or time.
Solaris atbest might be able to destroy its incarnations which are strong and fast by themselves, but its true form would be an inaccessible/transinfinte layers of existence above solaris and even Solaris is bound by the concept of death. So in a sense the End has already beaten Solaris.
and its abilities/hax are overall comparable if not better to Solaris.
Its harder/impossible to argue that solaris is a concept of similar magnitude to the End
The End(incarnation) =< Solaris
@@ИльфатГалимов-э6ф should but not for sure since it was imprisoned in another reality, not frozen in time in the other Reality.
Do you guys ever stop to realize how similar The End is to "Argus" (In Sonic Chronicles? Even though it is non-canon?)
I mean the end isn’t the most creative of villains so yeah he could very well be similar
How is The End more powerful or be able to ‘end’ existence or let alone be comparable to infinity, when it can’t even escape digital space by itself. Digital Space shouldn’t be that different to regular Space-Time. Everything going off of here seems to only be going off of statements.
He fought a far stronger super sonic that alone makes him more powerful 😭
That’s almost like saying everyone beats Cthulhu because he got beat by boat.
@@deathwingthedestroyer3632 this doesn’t debunk the argument lol
@@deathwingthedestroyer3632 if you’re gonna try to tell me 06 super sonic is somehow equal to super sonic from frontiers then you’re gonna have to make the biggest reach imaginable to prove that😭
@ Not really, I was going to say that neither argument addresses that a perfectly convenient and easily exploitive weak spot had HAD to be present on Solaris for it to be defeated. Plus I personally think 3 Super Hedgehogs should be comparable to Frontiers Super Sonic at least to a degree, but that’s just me.
All imma say is that in Frontiers, there was a flashback where the End one shotted multiple planets...And the end seems to be very smart and cunning too
Impressive. Infinite being the strongest is promotional material basically overhype nothing else supports him being that tough
Overall good
At the start of Forces Eggman heavily implies infinite is superior to anything he’s ever made. This would include the Egg Wizard can create realms stated to be beyond dimensions, making it potentially 5D.
@@starch_lad Eggman called the fucking Egg Dealer his greatest creation in _Shadow the Hedgehog._ A mech that literally has buttons that make it shoot itself if the person fighting it hits them before Eggman does, and can also super-charge Shadow, one of his enemies.
Eggman says some absolute nonsense sometimes.
@@ToaArcanChrist Almighty this comment caught me off guard lmfao. That is true though, Eggman is a genius but he do be overhyping himself and his creations here and there 🤣
@@starch_lad Do you realize how many times Eggman has said that same thing? Knowing the character you should already know that such statements cannot be taken seriously.
@@ToaArcan Fair point, but I feel the context behind both statements is important deduce their validity. Infinite’s statement at the start of forces is to establish that the stakes are higher than ever. That’s why, I the same cutscene, Eggman goes a speal about hating Sonic, the reason he states all his losses will be payed a thousand fold and why Orbot says Eggman means business this time. All of it is to establish Infinite is a larger threat than anything Eggman has created prior. As for the Egg-Dealer statement, it is one of the final bosses of a Shodow 05 play through (final story not included), so it’s likely that the line was included to justify why your fighting it and not something else.
We dont even know what the end really looks like, if i remember right they needed to take out solaris's consciousness.
The End was certainly a beast
True concept of death
@@OfficialPuffer Solaris is a bigger beast because it is omnipotent
To bad it's just a moon. Would perfer if it was designed to be a creepy god abomination thing like dark Gaia or solaris
I was thinking about "Stellaris" and the shroud entity called "The Cycle" and was gonna say "there is literally nothing in all of Sonic Franchise that is gonna beat that.
Sonic do not remember sonic 06, neither shadow, time eater used his ability to consume time and space to put mephiles, Kingdom valley and crisis city in white space, but they dont remember the events of these games.
Shadow says to mephiles that him do not know mephiles and sonic in sonic rival dont know who silver is.
Mephiles says that he want to exist, to be in the main timeline, so he needs to defeat shadow for this to happen, but he fails
Mephiles is confined out of the timeline and time eater creating the white space, consuming everything to there, was he's only chance to return
The characters only get deja vu of places of the 06, like they have passed here, because they did, but they dont remember
Yes he does. Team sonic racing says so
Since The End presents itself to individuals as that individual’s idea of death, would The End appear to Solaris as Sonic, Shadow, and Silver?
Sonic Generations doesn't prove that Sonic remembers the events of 06. In fact, Shadow Generations disproves that entirely. The Time Eater isn't taking places from Sonic's memory. It's taking places from across space-time that just happen to coincide with Sonic's past. Neither Modern Sonic, Modern Tails, or Blaze have any memory of Crisis City, and Shadow has no memory of Kingdom Valley or Mephiles.
Blaze LITERALLY MENTIONS CRISIS CITY
I thought Sega already confirmed that The End was the second strongest right behind Solaris, but they did put the two of them in a leauge of their own
Solaris is a fraud
Ian Flynn stated that The End was just boasting when it was bragging about its self. Classic bad guy thing.
The End has no way of fully destroying Solaris as it exists in multiple realities and The End has been shown to not fully be able to cross dimensions.
This fight would be a stalemate.
P.S.
Super Sonic never defeated Solaris.
The game contradicts that notion
Yes super sonic defeated solaris. And besides super sonic wasnt taking the fight seriously as shown by the diaIogue. Even shadow said this MIGHT be an interesting fight after finding out solaris was a super dimensional being.
He didn't say The End was lying. Watch Bumble Kast on November 13, 2023, he literally called The End the same as Solaris.
@@TheGamingRift11 He wrote the story.
@@ИльфатГалимов-э6ф He said The End was boasting in a Tweet Q&A last year.
Before watching the video, I think that The End is overall stronger than Solaris, but there is actually no way that The End could even remotely win against an omnipresent being.
The End which we observe as a moon is simply a incarnation/avatar of its true form.
Going through ingame dialogue it seems it heavily corrosponds to Platos theory of forms.
It stated to look different based on the observer altering its visual presentation based on how the observer believes death looks like.
This would inherently make it both formless and intelligble aswell as archetypal in nature since it would always be the perfect representation of death to any observer.
Its also shown the ability to destroy other abstract entities/thoughts like the phantom lights, which are shapless/formless and abstract ideas of the ancients.
It also describing itself as infinite showing its eternal and transcendental in nature.
Such statements would make it a Type 1 Universal Concept. Meaning its true form is above all reality beyond dimensions of geometrical/Euclidean properties and omnipresent wherever death/the concept of death/order exists. Its true form would be inherently multiversal to generally outerversal scaling wise.
You can imagine it similarly to a Universal Constant throughout all of existence and beyond anbound by ideas like space or time.
Solaris atbest might be able to destroy its incarnations which are strong and fast by themselves, but its true form would be an inaccessible/transinfinte layers of existence above solaris and even Solaris is bound by the concept of death. So in a sense the End has already beaten Solaris.
and its abilities/hax are overall comparable if not better to Solaris.
Its harder/impossible to argue that solaris is a concept of similar magnitude to the End
The End(incarnation) =< Solaris
Finally someone understands the end we see is just its avatar form and nothing compared to its true form
This entire argument falls apart when you consider
A) Nobody remembers the events of 06
B) Sage and The End can be unreliable narrators
That doesn’t hold any weight
Given that Sonic and blaze in Team Sonic Racing remembers Crisis city and events that transpired in 06, and they seemingly are the only ones to do so.
The whole “sage and end being unreliable” is dishonest given that Solaris fanboys take Eggmans narration as gospel…. Despite sage being created by Eggman?
Seems kinda desperate to try claim that, that’s all
Base sonic at this point would solo solaris. Hell infinite would beat him
Base sonic unironically could probably fair better than the 06 super forms yeah
horrible take
@@TheGamingRift11m8, Solaris isnt Perfect Chaos
It’s also important to note that the final battle of 06 is supposed to be a 1v1 with Solaris in all 3 periods. If it’s really true that they needed to beat him in all 3 times periods then it means Solaris lost to the 3 super hedgehogs in a 1v1 meanwhile the end was able to easily overpower 4 super form threats from a later time.
I’m not sure if the end can destroy Solaris but considering the raw power creep between the games I doubt Solaris could do any real damage to the end. Either the end somehow manages to annihilate all forms of Solaris or the two 1v1 for eternity with the different versions of Solaris tagging in and out against the end
The End is Unimaginable Times Stronger Than Solaris in Terms of Sheer Power,like this is like Comparing Kid Goku to Black Frieza
The question here is not,can The End beat Solaris,The Question here is
What does The End have,that can take care of Solaris's omnipresence/Inmortality
The end is also immortal, and it's implied that eventually the End would consume creation itself if Sonic didn't stop it. So eventually it would consume Solaris
@TheGamingRift11 which is a Very Valid answer
I feel like Solaris would easily beat The End. It had taken 3 hedgehogs in order to "beat" it while the End was defeated by Super Sonic(2 in Final Horizon)and Supreme.
@@MeepinMehBut that super sonic Scales Abyssaly above the Three super forms tho? Like at Best the fight is a Draw. Solaris can have all the inmortality Hax he wants but he doesn't have nearly enough attack potency to put down what basically needed a power equivalent of FOUR super forms...multiplied a good couple times over to put down...
@MeepinMeh except,Base Sonic in Frontiers Shits on the Hedgehog Super Trío, because this Franchise has Enormous Powercrept,Frontiers Base Sonic has waaaaay Better feats, Showings,Statements,And Narrative Than everything Before Even Forces
I hope they explore The End more in Sonic Frontiers 2.
I don't really think it is dead & there's so much they can still do with it
Who tf thought this is close THIS IS A SLAUGHTER💀
@@Bop-u6g a lot of people do run with the idea Solaris bodies
The guy who wrote the End's dialogue says it's a slaughter... in favour of Solaris lmao.
The purple moon is lying, guys. That's it.
@@ToaArcanThe End 's tough yes but Solaris Is More powerful
The End just overglazed himself
@@kermitcholletgarcia1390no he’s not
@@kermitcholletgarcia1390
Fr
I dont know if I agree with Sonic remembering the events of 06. To my knowledge, there's no cutscene in Sonic Generations where Sonic states that he remembers the events of Crisis City or 06 and Shadow Generations proves that the Time Eater can put places and characters from someone's timeline (even erased timelines) in the void as during Shadow's fight with Mephiles in Generations, Shadow does not remember Mephiles at all despite Mephiles remembering Shadow.
That being said, you could argue that Sonic remembers 06 as it is somewhat hinted at in the ending of 06 itself and there is also the question of how Sonic knows Silver if he the events of 06 never happened.
You can just tell who the new sonic fans are by just their evidence alone the end does NOT beat Solaris 😭🙏🙏
Because
Solaris is a dark Gaia victim
@@john_negs7720 as much as I would love for that to be true it just simply is not Solaris' mere presence would kill Gaia right there and then
@ no he wouldn’t dark Gaia scales above a post frontiers sonic
@@Purple_23184 simple
One exists in 3 time periods and you need to kill it in all 3 at the same time or it'll keep coming back and even then that doesn't truly beat it
And the other is a moon who at best destroys worlds and got one shot by Super Sonic just flying into it once
If you want more FACTUAL evidence unlike the video I got it
This debate is basically just Buuhan vs Kid Buu where Solaris is clearly stronger but people still think The End is stronger due to statements lol
Statements and feats :)
@TheGamingRift11 yeah those too
Simply put. Sonic remembers the events of 06, as shown in 06 and TSR, The End saw Sonic’s mind, saw Solaris among those Sonic faced and straight up called him finite.
To back this up, Super Sonic couldn’t even beat The End without help, and there was lots of room for failure, while in 06, Super Sonic beat Solaris in the present without trouble. To make matters worse for Solaris, the End hadn’t even regained its full power yet, as Sage stated that if it did, Super Sonic wouldn’t be able to stop it. (This doesn’t even account for the absolute power creep that took place in Final Horizon, which was a result of The End’s absurd power.)
Solaris could already be defeated by 1 Super Form while The End faced the equivalent of 2 Super Sonic from Frontiers (Sonic and Supreme Sage) and almost won
The biggest problem with Solaris is that it exists in the past, present and future. Which would need 3 people at the same time, so it was 3 Super Forms
@@PauloH100 Plus, The End faced the equivalent of 4 Super Forms in the past, and was deemed too powerful 💀 (The emerald-empowered Titans)
What do you guys think?? Let me know!’
i personally dont really agree. alot of it mainly comes down to taking what the end was saying about itself into a literal sense. another thing that needs to be considered is the way each one of these threats were defeated. solarous not only needed 3 of the strongest people in the sonic universe, but they also needed to be in a certain point in time to do the same thing. meaning if we did bring this version of sonic and faught solarous, he can most likely defeat him faster, but the thing is he also has to do that in another point in time and even that doesn't truly defeat him. legit the only way he could die was to be permanently erased from existence. meanwile, you can defeat the end ones and he is gone. would it be hard, yes, would there be as many steps as solarouces, absolutly not. it wasn't trully baced on power alone, its mostly baced on if the end can destroy it in all points of time and space.
I think relying on the fact that "sonic is stronger now" doesn't really work in this context
@@jacknite625Agreed
I think you are relying too much on assumptions and a growth scale that does not exist in a serious way. I like the information you've collected but it almost feels like you've left out details and facts on purpose to define a result. Also, I think the words of the writer, who gave the victory to Solaris, have more weight than the words of Eggman, who, every time he invents something new and minimally competent, defines it as his greatest creation. And the same thing happens with THE END which, according to the person who wrote it, has a God complex and overestimates itself.
And I mean, not out of favoritism towards Solaris, but even if we assume the maximum interpretation of power of both we would still literally have a being that devours concepts and dimensions, which erases existence as well as space-time just by being born against a supposed personified concept that destroys planets one by one with the goal of eventually destroying everything and which takes considerable years to travel through the universe.
The end hasn’t altered the world just by existing
Sonic doesn’t remember 06 because the events been erased from the time line
He remembers. Generations confirmed this. Shadow however does not.
@ where in generations because I don’t remember him saying anything about it
@@xavieriwundu9601the collection room which is stated to be based on Sonic’s memories and it has 06 related stuff in it so
@@john_negs7720 ok so does shadow side of the thing but clearly states he don’t remember what happened in 06 plus this a celebration title of course it gone have things from previous games it so and the time eater clearly has the power pull things from erase timelines as well I.e memphiles and crisis city
@ shadow isn’t Sonic and it being an anniversary title doesn’t really matter it’s still stated to be based on Sonic’s memories
I think oeople forget that sonic needed two transformations STRONGER then super sonic to even defeat the end.
For another comparison
Let’s put both entities up against an entity who is the antithesis that exists in another franchise. Giratina from Pokémon, the embodiment of both Matter and Antimatter.
For Solaris vs Giratina, Solaris is virtually indestructible and has the power to devour timelines and even alter history and even fate itself. Solaris can also endlessly revive himself as long as his core is intact. Meanwhile for Giratina, he exists in a dimension where physics and causality do not exist as the Distortion World exists outside the concepts of both Time and Space. Giratina can also detect changes in other dimensions and even sense disturbances throughout the multiverse.
This power makes Solaris almost impossible to kill, but Giratina exists outside space and time, giving him some resistance/immunity to Solaris’ manipulation of time. And although both characters are incapable of dying, Solaris’ abilities will most likely wear Giratina down, unless the fight takes place in the Distortion World. But even then, Solaris’ ability to devour space-time could potentially affect the Distortion World.
As for Giratina vs The End, while The End claims to be star-level, Giratina being a concept of both Matter and Antimatter, he would most definitely neutralize The End.
Meaning that Giratina would win high-diff against The End, but Solaris would most likely win high-diff against Giratina
So in the end, while The End has the Durability and Destructive Power, Solaris wins with medium difficulty.
I miss 2012 if i could go back in time I would have avoided taking Seroquel XR and just accepted being in a cyclical nature of gains but also losses into gains and looping upwards to eventually stop losing
I don't recall 06 ever being confirmed to be in sonics memories in generations
hey so breakdown aside… i’m just asking but what was the figure on the right in the thumbnail supposed to be? kinda looks like if The End had physical form or something.
Okay but let's consider this about Solaris 1. He does exist in all points in time making him semi omnipresent but not fully 2. It's not unlikely that the laws of the space time continuum don't apply to Solaris because of his semi omnipresence. With that said if Solaris wanted to he could theoretically bring forth multiple versions or clones with equal power of himself to the fight and we know that this isn't something he can't do because we see mephiles do it twice and anything mephiles can do so can Solaris so now we have to consider can the end fight 2 3 4 or even 5 Solaris'? Let's not forget that Solaris' existence is invincible and that the only way to truly get rid of Solaris is blowing out the light completely erasing Solaris from the timeline whereas the end is in fact killable
The end is order and death itself Solaris is getting cooked
Great video ps can I ask you a question
Thanks! and sure
@@TheGamingRift11have you heard of the house of the dead
@TheGamingRift11 exuse me did my comment came in
I would still argue Solaris is a stronger threat than The End. His very being caused time and space to basically collapse and he had to to be defeated by three hedgehogs in three different time periods just to go down. Basically running on Master Emerald logic which is terrifying when you realised how screwed the universe would be if Sonic, Shadow and Silver didn’t exist.
As powerful as the End is and having shown off impressive feats, his existence didn't cause reality to come apart and it only took Super Sonic to deal with him. Plus it didn’t take a cosmic reset just to be rid of him and I'm pretty sure no time travel was involved.
They're both comparable yet the way their stories portray them gives us different assumptions.
At the end of the day, they're as powerful as the writers wants them to be. We know nothing about Solaris as an entity beyond what we can infer from Mephiles and what we can guess who Solaris is from what info we do get of him.
Solaris is a threat to the cast and the rest of existence. The End is a threat to Sonic, Sage and the rest of the known universe. One existed for an eternity. One was born as a lab accident.
Solaris is basically a time eating Satan and The End is death.
Yeah no the end wipes him
Sonic 1v1ed Solaris in the present shadow 1v1ed in the past and silver in the future
Sonic and co never beat Solaris and the TimeEater has only been stated to destroy time and space while Solaris can do that infinite times over as he is specifically said to consume more then one timeline.
And finally Sonic doesn't remember Solaris. Shadow doesn't remember Mephiles, Mephiles said himself he doesn't exist and all we know is that Sonic only remembers Elise and Silver's bad future. And even then they only came back due to the TimeEater's interference and afterwards time was restored the way it was so either they forgot it again or they only remember certain events. Mephiles is part of Solaris so if he doesn't exist then niether does Solaris.
So no, the End doesn't know of Solaris and to top it all off Ian Flynn himself said Solaris is more powerful then The End. Take his word as you wish but he fricking wrote the End's whole character and plot of Frontiers
The End which we observe as a moon is simply a incarnation/avatar of its true form.
Going through ingame dialogue it seems it heavily corrosponds to Platos theory of forms.
It stated to look different based on the observer altering its visual presentation based on how the observer believes death looks like.
This would inherently make it both formless and intelligble aswell as archetypal in nature since it would always be the perfect representation of death to any observer.
Its also shown the ability to destroy other abstract entities/thoughts like the phantom lights, which are shapless/formless and abstract ideas of the ancients.
It also describing itself as infinite showing its eternal and transcendental in nature.
Such statements would make it a Type 1 Universal Concept. Meaning its true form is above all reality beyond dimensions of geometrical/Euclidean properties and omnipresent wherever death/the concept of death/order exists. Its true form would be inherently multiversal to generally outerversal scaling wise.
You can imagine it similarly to a Universal Constant throughout all of existence and beyond anbound by ideas like space or time.
Solaris atbest might be able to destroy its incarnations which are strong and fast by themselves, but its true form would be an inaccessible/transinfinte layers of existence above solaris and even Solaris is bound by the concept of death. So in a sense the End has already beaten Solaris.
and its abilities/hax are overall comparable if not better to Solaris.
Its harder/impossible to argue that solaris is a concept of similar magnitude to the End
The End(incarnation) =< Solaris
@excal5529 yes but 1. We don't know the true extent of its power or even if its power is equates to much more then shown.
2. There's no proof that the incarnations only have a limited amount of the End's power.
And 3. Ian Flynn never commented on a true form and concretely stated the End is less powerful then Solaris
Shadow gens confirms that they in fact do NOT remeber the events of 06.
5:00 that is a really good point
The end was just a big ball of rock!!!! What were they thinking
im still wondering if they trying to built a stronger foe beyond the end cuz final horizon did gave a hint about the Zap symbol.
Great video however since 06 was erased from sonics memories would the end still know about it? Besides that which I couldn’t give you straight answer 2 , great video
One thing you have to point out is that super sonic from frontiers could probably solo the super trio from 06. You have to take into account that sonic grows ALOT as time goes by
The End severely outmatches Solaris.
Solaris was depicted as being not much stronger than the Super trio as each were able to withstand it's attacks, outspeed it, and even damage both its armor and its core. The reason why they needed three was simply because of Solaris' temporal omnipresence, but remove that and Super Sonic alone handle Solaris.
Sonic canonically gets stronger each game, shown the most in Forces and Frontiers. So, the version of Sonic "The End" fought would scale above the version Solaris fought. This is without including Super Sonic 2.
I know there was a statement on Twitter by the creator that implied Giganto was at the level of past Super Sonic foes, which makes sense. Not only is Giganto fighting a stronger Super Sonic, but both Sonic and Sage repeatedly imply that the gap between Super Sonic and Giganto is decently close, arguably Giganto has an advantage. You can easily argue Giganto scales above Solaris. Wyvern and Knight have evidence suggesting they scale above Giganto, with Supreme being the strongest amongst them.
(To note: Solaris was surpassed decades ago. The Time Wizard scaled to Super Sonic and Burning Blaze and, unlike Solaris, actually fought them together while Solaris was rivaling a single Super Hedgehog).
Lastly, The End... yeah, not only did Sonic need an enhanced Super Form to fight against The End tethered Supreme, but he needed even MORE power to actually deal a decisive blow against The End, which left him bruised and unconcious. Solaris could never.
I don't think Solaris has anything to actually take down The End given how much weaker Solaris is, but I'm not sure if The End has anything to bypass Solaris' temporal omnipresence.
For those who quote Ian, keep in mind that his word is not law. He has made false claiks in the past and very clearly expressed that you shouldn't take his word at face value. The guy is just sharing his thoughts and opinions.
Basically God vs The Grim Reaper
5:01
It was a 6 months time jump actually
@@charismaentertainer1657 yep I double checked and it’s 6
Imo this implies the end is possessed by the one in the same being called solaris, dark gaia, time eater etc. whom also possessed metal sonic in heroes and chaos in adventure
Not to mention sonic x shadows artwork calling devil doom “iblis” lol
This kinda makes me question if super sonic 2 can go one on one with Solaris 🤔
While i dont necessarily disagree. I think a few things aren't true either. Saying that just because 06 was in Generations, means that Sonic remembers it. I think it was more so a timeline that Sonic was heavily involved and was brought in because of it.
Shadow sure as hell didnt remember who Mephiles was, but is still part of his story because he was heavily involved with Mephiles and was pulled into white space.
Also i think Solaris being basically omnipresent is more than enough to match the End in some fashion.
Also saying the Titans scale to super sonic isn't necessarily true either. Multiple actions in the game show that super sonic is easily faster and stronger than them.
Love the video still btw 🥹
Just stuff i wanted to bring up ^-^
Sonic is basically Goku with how quick he gets stronger, lmao.
You should do Solaris vs Dimentio
Even if Sonic doesn’t remember 06, being infinitely stronger than the time eater is good enough
Can't wait for the villain over the end -
I used to think the Sonic gets stronger over time thing was just an excuse for him beating infinite until I remembered that in generations Sonic beat perfect chaos in base with relative ease when in adventure he needed to go super
2:28 This is an exaggeration.
When The End talked about tearing down the walls between dimensions, it was talking about the "wall" between Cyberspace and Sonic's world. As far as "consuming all" is concerned, it's talking about going around the universe and taking down individual planets. Ian Flynn said as much on Bumblekast. So no, The End is not omniversal like Solaris is.
As for Super Sonic 2, what it gave Sonic was the ability to reflect The End's big orbs.
There's that and how I feel people overplay the whole "more powerful every second" thing. Yes, he beat Perfect Chaos in base form. By learning how to boost. Like, that's it.
And The End stroking it's own ego doesn't say much either.
Solaris still gets soloed
I know I've seen comments talk about how Ian Flynn talk about how Solaris is stronger than The End, but at the same time, they're both strong in their own rights. I don't want to drag out information on both entities, so let's just leave it at that for the best.
Remember, Solaris was able to damage Sonic shadow and silver in their SUPER FORMS where they are supposed to be invincible! The End could only push Sonic back in REGULAR Super Form, Not counting the power up Sonic gained to defeat it ofc. So yeah if Solaris returns to the timeline, The End will meet it's End. Pun intended.
You are forgetting Sonic gets much more powerful as time goes on - with sonic needing 2 additional super forms to stand a chance against the end
As sage states that Frontiers super sonic would be incapable of stopping even a weakened version of the end.
I’m sorry but please research better
@@TheGamingRift11 while this is true, Solaris still managed to ACTUALLY DAMAGE Sonic in his super form. Whether that's true for his additional super form is a completely different story but in the end, I guess it didn't even matter :P
Pun intended
@@dealerinfaith8039And The End also hurts Super Sonic. The Avatar's attacks alone were able to cause damage to Starfall Super Sonic, Super Sonic died when he didn't pick up enough speed to cross The End in the QTE and Cyber Super Sonic is completely injured just by going through The End