As a member of team "no seriously, there's a lot out there, can we shift the camera for a while" (among other things, and boy do I have essays on those subjects) it's remarkably affirming to see the sentiment echoed!
I played through all of FFXIVs story in 2022, careful not to spoil myself and i absolutely loved shadowbringers and endwalker, and felt like I got the intended emotional storytelling about loss and the inevitability of pain. Then i go online and see SO many people whining about how the ancients could have done this and that, and how Ishikawa was secretly stopped from writing the intended pro-ancient story or something. I hope ancients will at most be related to future stuff, and not a center of attention.
Yeah, there's no unuverse where we actually got a story about the Ancients 'winning', or being better than us on every level, because of the simple fact that they precede us. If the Ancients can win, there's no FFXIV, and that's not a plot you can do eight years into FFXIV!
I think the remaining Ascians could be addressed with a trial series during the post-DT patches. It could be a neat sidestory about these people who had their entire lives overwritten with memories that aren't theirs and that are now without a purpose.
As to the whole topic of moving on from the Ancient's/Ascian's storyline, that's why I'm glad they dealt with the last piece left of Zodiark right away. By doing that it removed the temptation to go back to that at a later time while were establishing the new plot threads for the next few years and as a side benefit we got some juicy lore dumps about how the Thirteenth works, so it strikes me as odd that a lot of people just dismissed the whole story arc as "filler" despite its frankly rather obvious utility it offers the story as a whole. Never mind the fact that if it was put off for later......those same people WOULD have just whined about them running out of ideas and "just doing Zodiark stuff again" -_-
yay, my favorite FFXIV theorist has a new video - and the hair's awesome. For bringing the ancients back - how about something in Eureka? We know what happened to the Ancient there, but we don't KNOW, you know? Let's go get another Isle of Val angle. Could get more people into the zone doing stuff.
The ancients give me Portal 2 vibes, specifically the bits when you’re learning about the history of Apeture Science. Elpis truly is a place where they’re “throwing science at a wall and seeing what sticks”, and the sidequests in the zone only double down on that.
Enjoyed listening to this essay a lot. I think you sort of justified in my mind about ,Venat, and why she did commit the terrible action of sundering her people. Because the ancients were flawed. A lot of people would discuss on the forums these last two years that the writers could’ve done this and that, but really they are kind of ignoring the fact that the ancients were flawed. I agree with what you said when they start, doing a lot of characterizing and fanfic in Elpis; and it makes it hard to make a story passable where people don’t start questioning everything
I think there was dialogue about the final days that implies there were other people aside from the amaurotines living in their world, but they didn't care too much about them. The final days started on them before it reached Amaurot
Yeah, this is what I mean about it being unclear if they're a one-world government, or a one-relevant-government world. We don't really get any confirmation on how politically close those 'other people' were to Amaurot; if Amaurot is Washignton D.C., we have no indication on if they just lost Chicago or Tokyo.
Good stuff! I am glad someone is covering the Ancients' place as a Creation Myth primarily angle. As well as voicing out that the Sundered can in many aspects transcend the Ancients and perhaps already have in some regard.
This approach to the ancients is so smart. It always kind of bugs me when people talk about the characters in isolation from their greater context or from the society that they exist in. Like Hermes is so much more interesting than people give him credit for. Also when Emet tells you that he doesn't see you as being "truly alive" and therefore he can't "murder" you back in ShB maybe it comes off as a flippant thing he's saying in the moment but the more you find out about the ancients the more you understand that he's just stating a basic principal of the world from his society's perspective. They're so much more interesting when taken as a whole so thanks so much for using that approach and teaching me a bunch too!
Yeah, a lot of the base facts about the Ancients just sorta read... really weirdly in isolation, as either simply saccharine and perfect or (more often, I think) just abjectly horrifying. They only make sense in the context we're given, of an alleged utopia that's refusing to be introspective. Hermes especially goes in wildly different directions if you don't take it story-first; depending on what you emphasize, either he comes off as the one guy complaining in paradise, or the Cassandra pointing out obvious flaws.
I always kinda see the fall of the Ancients as the story of people of capital-P Privilege (as a societal function) being confronted with social/demographic/economic/political changes that undermine or even destroy that privilege--and how they learn to cope with it. Like "killing gods" (see Moon Channel's essay here: ruclips.net/video/IEUqLL8J4gI/видео.html ), it is an extremely "Japanese" cultural issue, but it's also one that overlaps very heavily on the Venn diagram of modern western culture.
Okay, so, here me out... LOL. It's pretty clear that we are going to Meracydia eventually (Although we still haven't explored all of Garlemald proper, so I could be wrong!). The dragons came from another star. Given the space travel in Endwalker, there could be something there that they could expand on.. meaning all the other stars that are out there. This gives them so so so much they can create from. We are also going to other planets/stars with the crafting/gathering zone too. Concerning the Ancients, I think they could definitely introduce us to the other Ascians and their perspectives/stories/goals/contributions without making them the main focus. Maybe they would give us insight into other stars or races on Etheirys/history even further back than them? Not to mention the other shards too. There's so so so much they could do. I have faith that they aren't going to just give us something predictable.
The first one was an accident, and then I started realizing that Hic Svnt Leones might be about the sort of bad people the Ancients were, and just rolled with it.
While I definitely don't want them to be a focus of an expansion, I'd love a sidequest series that goes into the sundered ascians and what they do now that the entire original line-up is gone. I reckon that'd be a really interesting thing to explore, maybe alongside a bunch of the void quests. Still waiting for a sidequest about the ishgardian heretics though so
I like that idea, but the main reason I like it is because of Fandaniel (and to a lesser extent Mitron) showing us that the Ascians aren't necessarily all in on the whole 'bring back the world of the Ancients' thing.
They left the avenue open to explore them. I do hope we get to see mentions of them, especially gaia, however I would love that to be more sidequests/nonmsq related. I’m looking forward to how aetheric changes are going to alter the ecosystem. The fishing studium quests really made me wonder if this is going to me more immediate rather than a slow evolution. But it could realistically be a one off mention and we don’t reap the consequences of it
I feel like the fact people grasp at those strings kinda is a good thing in a way. I get the feeling that part of the elpis story was trying to show that the ancients were not a totalogy, that some had differing opinions or attitudes, but the tragedy is that despite all the actually likable people, in the end the voices of the majority, of their culture at its roots was too great. That the reality is that even if the average person is good or nice, it does little to stop a whole civilisation from being rotten or collapsing.
Yeah, defenders at least proves that they managed to sell these guys as people who deserved better, even if some people can't get to the part where even if they do deserve better, they can't GET better.
@@EinDose I think it also sets the tone of the tragedy well when people try suggesting other options cause that very much is the point, they could have done X, Y or Z, Venat could have done A, B, or C, but they didn't, and for Venat, well now you have a setup where she actually can't do anything because ironically, her asking asking us to tell the story, and thus her knowing the future hamstrung her as much as it helped, her own words arguing why it's fine to tell her but her in the end cause she couldn't know what events might set in a certain course, and she also knew that potentially she had to fail in one potential timeline to close the loop.
In terms of what's coming next, I certainly believe it's going to continue with at least the bare minimum 'aftermath' plot elements, as we're presently still looking at grappling with the state of the reflections of our star- and Yshtola's drive to see through the science of properly traveling between worlds. Ultimately, though, it feels like a stage of tying up loose ends and using the memory of the Ancients and the influences of the Ascians to prepare for the future... and the potential pitfalls our flawed beings put before us. I think we're going to be in a middle zone somewhere between 'perpetually in this narrative' and 'ignoring' it. I don't think being squarely in either camp is what the FFXIV team has in mind, cause like you said- they're more creative than that. They've openly stated they wanted to bring the Hyd/Zod plot to it's conclusion, but the scale and impact of those stories inevitably must continue to be referenced as we are left with the damage to the reflections/relationships made across the barriers of the astral sea/exploring new areas on the Source that have also been influenced by the Ascians actions (like Tuliyollal). I think it's going to feel like we're 'trickling out' of the storyline of the ancients; a deliberate distancing over time.
Personally, I experienced everything you describe and that's exactly the story I got out of it. I know people loved Hydaelyn, Emet, Venat, and others. I love them too, each in their own way. But what I think is that, we see a glimpse of their story. Yet no matter how involved we are in their stories, by the nature of things, we cannot change their stories without erasing ours. It's simple. They stumbled and fell, so we could walk. By living and accepting the flaws they were unable to, it created the opportunity for us to overcome the tragedy that befell them, for us to go beyond them, in our own way. I think what distracts people is besides their attachment to the characters, everyone we know was an ancient, in some form or another. We were Azem. Hence, they feel like they have stakes there. Yet I feel it's important to separate the WoL and Azem. Yes the WoL was Azem, and carries on much as they did, but they are two different characters. With my WoL, I have it so the time she spent walking among the ancients made her feel more pressure to save Etheirys. To follow Emet's last words. "Remember us. Remember that we once lived." At the end of it all, we are the inheritor and bearer of their legacy, and the sole witness to them who properly understands them. Once we pass, there will be no more memories of them. And that's okay. Time moves forward, things change. There's a line that sticks out to me from Heavensward regarding Aymeric. Him being called "An Azure Dragoon of a new era." Considering for my WoL, I started as a Dragoon. I view my WoL as a Dragoon of the old era. So is it too that the ancients are of an era that can't exist in the modern world. Yes our WoL is recorded in history, for all they've done. Serving as hope for many in the future, as the whole alternate future G'raha comes from in ShB shows us (especially with The Twinning). But there comes a point where eventually, we're just regarded as legend. All who knew us and were impacted by us fade away. And sometimes, legends fade away. It's a sad reality but beautiful in its own way. As for the ancients going forward, while there are remaining sundered ascians left, with no sundered to lead them and no Zodiark, there is no hope of them ever winning. With scions and others such as those on the first (Ryne, Gaia, everyone who believes in the Warrior of Darkness/Warriors of Light legacy), and I presume some type of people on the 13th (haven't done EW story patch content lol.), there are those who will oppose and stop them everywhere they go. While finishing them off would be nice, there isn't a need nor would it make for a satisfying story in an expansion. As they have said, Dawntrail is the vacation us WoLs need. Now there will be more to that of course, but it's a new beginning built off the finished old. An idea I've seen tossed around is with Emet, Hythlo, and the other ancients returning to the aetherial sea, that maybe one day their souls will choose to walk among us again. While that would be nice to get more content of them, I'm personally content with letting them rest. As Emet roughly said "yours is not the world we know and fought over, and we lost." We might see them again one day, but there needs to be a good reason for it, as well as it not coming too soon. Let us miss them, and get used to living with their memory, before potentially bringing them back.
I'm definitely on team "wow those guys sure left us a mess huh". I'd definitely prefer if they take a break on resolving the 2 or 3 remaining paragons, though. Also this is a great argumentative video even if the so called "zodiark trancers" will probably never shut up.
Yeah, something I left out of this video was that there's a lot of moments in various Elpis quests where I just went 'oh, so that was YOUR fault, huh'. They definitely really explore the notion that the Ancients made everything about the game world, both positive and negative.
I have like weird feeling towards the ancients -in general - and going forward especially from the narrative angle you highlighted here. I think the safest way we can touch upon the ancients in a way adjacent to the current story (i want it to be unrelated mind you) is through a custom delivery npc and that's it. There's flaws to this i recognise but i think it's a safe and minor way to go back to elpis which was underutilised (very understandable narrativley) outside of 6.0 and pandaemonium.
Custom delivery seems interesting at first, Anden worked pretty well, but then I hit a problem of... like, what context could there possibly be for an Ancient to want us to give them hand-crafted/gathered stuff?
I personally hope is there is anything Ascian related, that is kept as at most as dealing with the fall out of whatever plans they had in the works before the death of zodiark, or at maybe it takes up a bozja/eureka style zone as side content not major main story stuff. But I feel the story of the Ancients have a good close due to Endwalkers MSQ. Dawntrail has a lot to do right, and honestly I feel this could be just a make or break as ARR was back in the day. I know I at least trust the team given I have been along for the ride the whole time since the ps3 beta for ARR.
I think it's a different scale of make-or-break.If ARR didn't work there just wasn't goign to be any more FFXIV at all; I think if Dawntrail doesn't work, there will be more, but its reputation will become 'the show you stop watching after season four'. Part of that is that there is a level of assurance, though. While there's a lot riding on Dawntrail in story especially, it's a tone-setter for all of FFXIV after this point, there's only so wrong it can go; not only is the gameplay gonna be solid regardless, but the broad story choices we already know they've made were the right ones.
The only thing at the moment that seems remotely related to ancients we'll be getting in DT seems to be in Solution 9 and the Arkadion, if all the theories turn out correct at least. But outside of that I think we're in for some brand new things! Tural's going to be great to explore and learn about, including the Solution 9 stuff. After that I think we're going to continue exploring Meracydia and get more lore on the dragons and potentially the aftermath of Allag's actions on that continent. Hopefully we learn more about Ilsabard in the future too, it's still rather clouded there! One last thing I can imagine is inter-shard travel and we get to learn more about what's happening in the remaining ones. Maybe somewhere down the line we're going to see the First and Thirteenth's efforts to restore each other's balances! I mean they hired Gaia's voice actor for that one scene! TLDR - Still so much to be excited about after the ancients!
Yeah, I didn't want to say it, but I think it's ultimately kinda unimaginative to be ONLY thinking about what possible Ancient-related plot hooks are ahead of us. Tural alone is offering a whole bunch of impressive plot hooks.
I really hope you're right and we don't get more ancients in DT. Like maybe a little bit of post fall what the first people did just before and after the sundering maybe, but lot as the main driving force.
There is one more possilbe arc that could be takeing out of the ainchients, though the Asccians but actualy dealing with them. Copping and acceptance. They have well and truly lost at this point, but they still exist. so how will the Asccians and through them the Aincheints process this fact? Try and make new goals? Withdraw into themselves? Take a truly crazy route and try to deny their foe (WoL) victory even if they have lost? Heck, there is enough of them that you could have plots dealing with all three and other possible routes.
Yeah, there's the notion of doing stories about the lingering Ascians that aren't really 'Ascian' or 'Ancient' stories. That's something that I internally roll into the last category, but it's definitely not a given.
Thanks RUclips for recommending this! But yeah, I agree with the video entirely. Despite some quibbles I largely enjoyed EndWalker for what it is and then found the discourse around the whole Venat genocide/saving The Ancients afterwards and was left sort of scratching my head. It was one of those "Did they play the same game I did?" moments that still leaves me puzzled to a large extent. I can't help but agree that maybe it was the framing of the story with, to be frank, Emet Selch so front and centre that failed the narrative in that regard. Had we only had Hythlo around (and maybe not even really spent much time in Elpis at all) it would likely have worked better. Of course, there's also the factor of a certain subset of players who had decided years and years ago that Hydaelyn was "the villain" who were just never going to accept a story in which that wasn't the case (not saying she was the "good guy" either of course, which the game made very clear to me at least).
I think that for a lot of those people, there's no Elpis rewrite that would 'fix it' for them, because they made up their minds back in Shadowbringers.
This is only kind of tangential to stuff you touched on in this video, but I feel like Venat gets a lot of hate she doesn't deserve for what she did, too. It's like, she's not actually the god she represented herself as for all those years, she's just a woman. She had the *tiniest* bit of foreknowledge about one possible way that the future could play out acceptably, and in order to *keep* it that way she had to thread a needle from twelve thousand years away. Of *course* she didn't want to tell anyone what was going on! That could fuck everything up! PS: I love your hair!
Honestly, I feel like most of the people that give Venat shit were just looking for an excuse to; they already decided she was wrong and bad, so they were going to turn anything they could into proof of the stance they already had. And thanks! I got it dyed for a wedding, and the color's stuck in for a while.
Tbh, I always thought that whole discourse regarding if the Ancients could be saved was a bit strange. Not just because that whole discussion misses the point of an overall theme of the story, but any scenario where the Ancients are saved would always come at the cost of the world as we know it. Our WoL's journey, the places we've been to, the characters we've come to love, all of it would have never been a thing. Tragic as their fall is, is their existence more important than everything we have now? It was the crux of our conflict with Emet-Selch. He was nostalgic of a time that is no more, and found the present wanting because it did not live up to his lofty standards. The Scions opposed him because the believed that all those who live in the present have a right to life, imprecations and all. Endwalker pretty much stated outright that an imperfect existence grants us the strength to overcome life's sorrows, something the Ancients could never do, as they were drunk on bliss.
Agreed, although I'd point out that it's more 'knowingly imperfect' than anything. The Ancients had some PROBLEMS, they were just in too much denial to really grasp that.
I do have an idea on how the remaining 2 (or possibly 4, if Gaius couldn't finish the job properly) could show in Dawntrail and not feel like a bad idea. They are limited in numbers, and cannot pose a serious threat as you said. But what about a comedic threat? What if the remaining Ascians run afoul of a dapper gentleman in a damaged suit after his recent flight west? ruclips.net/video/AqTmMUdKlO4/видео.htmlsi=pT1QOfmla9IuCiKJ
Well said. Great video and great topic. We still don't like Hermes, nor do we fully like how the fall of the Ancients happened. But do agree they are a flaw group of people and there godlike beings was going to be there downfall someway shape or form base on their personal failings as people.
When you're the strongest thing in your world, then that just means that whenever you fall, it'll be your own fault somehow. The Ancients fell to that.
So im writing this before watching the video, but I personally want the Ancients to stay dead. There is so much of the world of Eitherys we dont know. frankly, the world is pretty much an open slate. There could be continents that exist that we havent heard of. However, there are two thing i would like to see touched upon in the future, the mask/sigil of Azem. I feel that is one thing we should have gotten. Granted i know they dont want to go to overboard given how rp heavy some people are with this game. But Azem is a Title, one that was held by another character that isnt us. The other thing im curious about, is how having a full ancient(ie our lovely Emet, possibly Hyth) being reborn will affect things. Like there is gonna be a singular person with a vast Aetheric ability. I feel like thats gonna have some sort of consequence. be it good or bad. BUt other than those two things, i want the Ancients to stay dead.
The developers have said that when an unsundered soul gets reborn, it'll be a regular baby with higher aetheric capacity. So don't imagine some kind of mega-baby, and more just imagine a black mage that never has to pivot into ice phase for MP regen. My own figuring says it'd take decades even in-universe, too; Gaia took eighty years to be reborn, and the Aitiascope showed us that even Livia and Rhitatyn are still in the early stages. I wouldn't expect that plot point to eventuate within the game's present day, you'd need a MAJOR time jump.
I kind of understand them. The woman I loved died very young and if I'm being totally honest - I would do some pretty crazy things to bring her back. It's a very selfish desperation that no amount of ethics or morals can impede. I would bring her back and nobody on this earth would stop me. Am I Emet Selch lol?
I like to hope you're not, just because I think at some point along the line you'd have an 'are we the baddies' reflection that he clearly didn't have.
I know this is probably a better comment for your video talking about him specifically, but just because Hermes was right, doesn't free him from the all the things that he is accusing others of. He is in charge of Elpis and mourns predators that have to be put down for killing other creations, rather than using his position to try and find away against such violence being breed for. The way he treats meteon is like a pageant mom, forcing his dreams onto a child with no concern with what they actually want. Meteon repeatedly talks about how she wants to eat, but he made her in such a way that she cannot, she loves to talk but struggles to speak in a depiction often associated with a lack of people wanting to listen, he even says himself, "Someone else will teach you to walk", because he knows how she was raised is not ok. For just one moment there was hope that he cared about helping Meteon, and feared the convocation would just put her down, but then he made it clear his intention was to keep her suffering so she could give him his answer.
He's not a man who's perfect about his solutions, but it should be noted he is better about them. Like, Kairos exists primarily as a kindness to prevent unnecessarily unmaking of creations. And sure, he's not scoring 100% on his parenting exam for Meteion (if 'parent' is even the right comparative relationship), but he's still doing better than anyone else in Elpis.
I get what you were going for with how Hermes treats Meteion, but it's worth remembering that the Meteia were created for a specific purpose. They were sapient because they HAD to be; he wasn't making an offspring with the purpose of raising her. That's why Hermes said what he said. Despite his compassion, Hermes *knows* he's not someone to raise Meteion as a father would. No matter how much he came to love her as one, WAY after the Meteia were sent on their way.
The story was never about the ancients. It has clear themes and the ancients were instrumental to the themes. Their purpose is over. Now, they're an ancient civilization. We know EVERYTHING about them. With Pandaemonium I would argue we know a little too much about them now. They have nothing to tell. The question is superfluous. What do we do with them? Nothing. What do YOU do with Ancient Rome in real life? Nothing. They're dead. They're the past. We learned what we had to learn from them and moved on. Hell, I live ON the land where the Roman Empire started and nobody cares. They're not important today. The same with the ancients. That story is over. Let's not make FF14 into Dragon Ball and make everything ridicously redundant just because we're afraid of things ending or changing. They're there. Their stuff and remnants will play a role every once in a while (I expect their stuff to be demoted to easy plot device every time the story needs it), but they're not a focus point anymore. And I hope they stay like this.
On a ruder day, this is definitely my line, but for this I felt like it was important to be a lot more open about it. As well as to discuss the notion that, with a game luke this, that isn't necessarily what's gonna happen.
I totally agree. The Ancients are gone, their story was told in full. Etheirys has so much going for it in the present day! I want to explore these new stories, revel in the richness that this world has to offer, and advance the world-state. Watching Eorzea moving past its mistakes and flaws has honestly been so rewarding. I remember when Merlwyb falsely claimed that it was us vs. them against the "beast" tribes. A zero-sum game of extinction. It hit so incredibly hard when she changed her tune, recognizing the mistakes of herself and her nation, and starting the first step of making them right.
The Twelve being retroactively staplegunned into the Ascian/Ancient lore hullaballoo is one of my pet peeves with FFXIV's worldbuilding. Same with Omega/Dragons/etc. They could have just been their own thing like the Ronka, Fairies, the Elementals, the Kami, etc. I feel like I have to go out of my way to find the glorious unknown these days. I want a much larger and more diverse lore for FFXIV again. I want mystery and a sense of magic and the unexplained. I don't want to go to the New World and have every damn mystery be solved by pointing to the f#$king Ancients again. Let the ancients lie dead and let them remain dead and gone.
The Twelve at least squared the circle in a way I felt satisfied by, albeit partially because it also closes off. And the Omicron and dragon stuff in Ultima Thule wasn't too bad by me, just because it felt sorta natural; if we're going interstellar for a finale, we need to pull in the interstellar figures. That said, I don't want to go back to their wells anytime soon, either.
![Randy Marsh Is THE WARRIOR OF LIGHT [FFXIV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/nK8dEEm78nM/mqdefault.jpg)
As a member of team "no seriously, there's a lot out there, can we shift the camera for a while" (among other things, and boy do I have essays on those subjects) it's remarkably affirming to see the sentiment echoed!
I played through all of FFXIVs story in 2022, careful not to spoil myself and i absolutely loved shadowbringers and endwalker, and felt like I got the intended emotional storytelling about loss and the inevitability of pain. Then i go online and see SO many people whining about how the ancients could have done this and that, and how Ishikawa was secretly stopped from writing the intended pro-ancient story or something. I hope ancients will at most be related to future stuff, and not a center of attention.
Yeah, there's no unuverse where we actually got a story about the Ancients 'winning', or being better than us on every level, because of the simple fact that they precede us. If the Ancients can win, there's no FFXIV, and that's not a plot you can do eight years into FFXIV!
I think the remaining Ascians could be addressed with a trial series during the post-DT patches. It could be a neat sidestory about these people who had their entire lives overwritten with memories that aren't theirs and that are now without a purpose.
A trial series would also be about the right length if you fiddle with Gaius' kill credits.
As to the whole topic of moving on from the Ancient's/Ascian's storyline, that's why I'm glad they dealt with the last piece left of Zodiark right away. By doing that it removed the temptation to go back to that at a later time while were establishing the new plot threads for the next few years and as a side benefit we got some juicy lore dumps about how the Thirteenth works, so it strikes me as odd that a lot of people just dismissed the whole story arc as "filler" despite its frankly rather obvious utility it offers the story as a whole.
Never mind the fact that if it was put off for later......those same people WOULD have just whined about them running out of ideas and "just doing Zodiark stuff again" -_-
It's also helpful thst 6.x wasn't actually ABOUT the last part of Zodiark, it just happened to incorporate the last part of Zodiark.
First video of yours that I've been recommended. Really enjoyed how you structured your argument & script. Subscribed, for the next 12.000 years.
yay, my favorite FFXIV theorist has a new video - and the hair's awesome.
For bringing the ancients back - how about something in Eureka? We know what happened to the Ancient there, but we don't KNOW, you know? Let's go get another Isle of Val angle. Could get more people into the zone doing stuff.
I got it done for a wedding, and the color's keeping in well!
The ancients give me Portal 2 vibes, specifically the bits when you’re learning about the history of Apeture Science. Elpis truly is a place where they’re “throwing science at a wall and seeing what sticks”, and the sidequests in the zone only double down on that.
Both this video AND the next one were born of an idea of doing a video on 'all the weird shit the Ancients canonically made'.
Enjoyed listening to this essay a lot. I think you sort of justified in my mind about ,Venat, and why she did commit the terrible action of sundering her people. Because the ancients were flawed. A lot of people would discuss on the forums these last two years that the writers could’ve done this and that, but really they are kind of ignoring the fact that the ancients were flawed. I agree with what you said when they start, doing a lot of characterizing and fanfic in Elpis; and it makes it hard to make a story passable where people don’t start questioning everything
I think there was dialogue about the final days that implies there were other people aside from the amaurotines living in their world, but they didn't care too much about them. The final days started on them before it reached Amaurot
Yeah, this is what I mean about it being unclear if they're a one-world government, or a one-relevant-government world. We don't really get any confirmation on how politically close those 'other people' were to Amaurot; if Amaurot is Washignton D.C., we have no indication on if they just lost Chicago or Tokyo.
@@EinDose yeah, should've let you cook a bit longer before I posted.
Good stuff! I am glad someone is covering the Ancients' place as a Creation Myth primarily angle. As well as voicing out that the Sundered can in many aspects transcend the Ancients and perhaps already have in some regard.
This approach to the ancients is so smart. It always kind of bugs me when people talk about the characters in isolation from their greater context or from the society that they exist in. Like Hermes is so much more interesting than people give him credit for. Also when Emet tells you that he doesn't see you as being "truly alive" and therefore he can't "murder" you back in ShB maybe it comes off as a flippant thing he's saying in the moment but the more you find out about the ancients the more you understand that he's just stating a basic principal of the world from his society's perspective.
They're so much more interesting when taken as a whole so thanks so much for using that approach and teaching me a bunch too!
Yeah, a lot of the base facts about the Ancients just sorta read... really weirdly in isolation, as either simply saccharine and perfect or (more often, I think) just abjectly horrifying. They only make sense in the context we're given, of an alleged utopia that's refusing to be introspective. Hermes especially goes in wildly different directions if you don't take it story-first; depending on what you emphasize, either he comes off as the one guy complaining in paradise, or the Cassandra pointing out obvious flaws.
Remember... Remember them...
Remember... that they once lived.
I always kinda see the fall of the Ancients as the story of people of capital-P Privilege (as a societal function) being confronted with social/demographic/economic/political changes that undermine or even destroy that privilege--and how they learn to cope with it. Like "killing gods" (see Moon Channel's essay here: ruclips.net/video/IEUqLL8J4gI/видео.html ), it is an extremely "Japanese" cultural issue, but it's also one that overlaps very heavily on the Venn diagram of modern western culture.
Okay, so, here me out... LOL. It's pretty clear that we are going to Meracydia eventually (Although we still haven't explored all of Garlemald proper, so I could be wrong!). The dragons came from another star. Given the space travel in Endwalker, there could be something there that they could expand on.. meaning all the other stars that are out there. This gives them so so so much they can create from. We are also going to other planets/stars with the crafting/gathering zone too. Concerning the Ancients, I think they could definitely introduce us to the other Ascians and their perspectives/stories/goals/contributions without making them the main focus. Maybe they would give us insight into other stars or races on Etheirys/history even further back than them? Not to mention the other shards too. There's so so so much they could do. I have faith that they aren't going to just give us something predictable.
Just wanna say I loved how you worked in the "Pandemonium" lyrics in the video's start 👍
The first one was an accident, and then I started realizing that Hic Svnt Leones might be about the sort of bad people the Ancients were, and just rolled with it.
This is probably one of my favorite videos of yours. One of the reasons is because you're analyzing the Ancients in a wholistic manner.
Doing otherwise just wouldn't have felt right.
While I definitely don't want them to be a focus of an expansion, I'd love a sidequest series that goes into the sundered ascians and what they do now that the entire original line-up is gone. I reckon that'd be a really interesting thing to explore, maybe alongside a bunch of the void quests. Still waiting for a sidequest about the ishgardian heretics though so
I like that idea, but the main reason I like it is because of Fandaniel (and to a lesser extent Mitron) showing us that the Ascians aren't necessarily all in on the whole 'bring back the world of the Ancients' thing.
They left the avenue open to explore them. I do hope we get to see mentions of them, especially gaia, however I would love that to be more sidequests/nonmsq related. I’m looking forward to how aetheric changes are going to alter the ecosystem. The fishing studium quests really made me wonder if this is going to me more immediate rather than a slow evolution. But it could realistically be a one off mention and we don’t reap the consequences of it
Yeah, side content is a better place for them, but even that should really wait.
I feel like the fact people grasp at those strings kinda is a good thing in a way. I get the feeling that part of the elpis story was trying to show that the ancients were not a totalogy, that some had differing opinions or attitudes, but the tragedy is that despite all the actually likable people, in the end the voices of the majority, of their culture at its roots was too great. That the reality is that even if the average person is good or nice, it does little to stop a whole civilisation from being rotten or collapsing.
Yeah, defenders at least proves that they managed to sell these guys as people who deserved better, even if some people can't get to the part where even if they do deserve better, they can't GET better.
@@EinDose I think it also sets the tone of the tragedy well when people try suggesting other options cause that very much is the point, they could have done X, Y or Z, Venat could have done A, B, or C, but they didn't, and for Venat, well now you have a setup where she actually can't do anything because ironically, her asking asking us to tell the story, and thus her knowing the future hamstrung her as much as it helped, her own words arguing why it's fine to tell her but her in the end cause she couldn't know what events might set in a certain course, and she also knew that potentially she had to fail in one potential timeline to close the loop.
In terms of what's coming next, I certainly believe it's going to continue with at least the bare minimum 'aftermath' plot elements, as we're presently still looking at grappling with the state of the reflections of our star- and Yshtola's drive to see through the science of properly traveling between worlds. Ultimately, though, it feels like a stage of tying up loose ends and using the memory of the Ancients and the influences of the Ascians to prepare for the future... and the potential pitfalls our flawed beings put before us. I think we're going to be in a middle zone somewhere between 'perpetually in this narrative' and 'ignoring' it. I don't think being squarely in either camp is what the FFXIV team has in mind, cause like you said- they're more creative than that. They've openly stated they wanted to bring the Hyd/Zod plot to it's conclusion, but the scale and impact of those stories inevitably must continue to be referenced as we are left with the damage to the reflections/relationships made across the barriers of the astral sea/exploring new areas on the Source that have also been influenced by the Ascians actions (like Tuliyollal). I think it's going to feel like we're 'trickling out' of the storyline of the ancients; a deliberate distancing over time.
Personally, I experienced everything you describe and that's exactly the story I got out of it. I know people loved Hydaelyn, Emet, Venat, and others. I love them too, each in their own way. But what I think is that, we see a glimpse of their story. Yet no matter how involved we are in their stories, by the nature of things, we cannot change their stories without erasing ours. It's simple. They stumbled and fell, so we could walk. By living and accepting the flaws they were unable to, it created the opportunity for us to overcome the tragedy that befell them, for us to go beyond them, in our own way.
I think what distracts people is besides their attachment to the characters, everyone we know was an ancient, in some form or another. We were Azem. Hence, they feel like they have stakes there. Yet I feel it's important to separate the WoL and Azem. Yes the WoL was Azem, and carries on much as they did, but they are two different characters. With my WoL, I have it so the time she spent walking among the ancients made her feel more pressure to save Etheirys. To follow Emet's last words. "Remember us. Remember that we once lived." At the end of it all, we are the inheritor and bearer of their legacy, and the sole witness to them who properly understands them. Once we pass, there will be no more memories of them. And that's okay. Time moves forward, things change. There's a line that sticks out to me from Heavensward regarding Aymeric. Him being called "An Azure Dragoon of a new era." Considering for my WoL, I started as a Dragoon. I view my WoL as a Dragoon of the old era. So is it too that the ancients are of an era that can't exist in the modern world. Yes our WoL is recorded in history, for all they've done. Serving as hope for many in the future, as the whole alternate future G'raha comes from in ShB shows us (especially with The Twinning). But there comes a point where eventually, we're just regarded as legend. All who knew us and were impacted by us fade away. And sometimes, legends fade away. It's a sad reality but beautiful in its own way.
As for the ancients going forward, while there are remaining sundered ascians left, with no sundered to lead them and no Zodiark, there is no hope of them ever winning. With scions and others such as those on the first (Ryne, Gaia, everyone who believes in the Warrior of Darkness/Warriors of Light legacy), and I presume some type of people on the 13th (haven't done EW story patch content lol.), there are those who will oppose and stop them everywhere they go. While finishing them off would be nice, there isn't a need nor would it make for a satisfying story in an expansion. As they have said, Dawntrail is the vacation us WoLs need. Now there will be more to that of course, but it's a new beginning built off the finished old. An idea I've seen tossed around is with Emet, Hythlo, and the other ancients returning to the aetherial sea, that maybe one day their souls will choose to walk among us again. While that would be nice to get more content of them, I'm personally content with letting them rest. As Emet roughly said "yours is not the world we know and fought over, and we lost." We might see them again one day, but there needs to be a good reason for it, as well as it not coming too soon. Let us miss them, and get used to living with their memory, before potentially bringing them back.
I LOVE that vest you're wearing
It's actually a dress, you just can't see most of it! It WOULD make for a pretty nice pattern for a vest, though.
awesome video, also love the hair.
The color's staying in well!
I'm definitely on team "wow those guys sure left us a mess huh". I'd definitely prefer if they take a break on resolving the 2 or 3 remaining paragons, though.
Also this is a great argumentative video even if the so called "zodiark trancers" will probably never shut up.
Yeah, something I left out of this video was that there's a lot of moments in various Elpis quests where I just went 'oh, so that was YOUR fault, huh'. They definitely really explore the notion that the Ancients made everything about the game world, both positive and negative.
@@EinDose the beaver incident of 12000 BCE...
I have like weird feeling towards the ancients -in general - and going forward especially from the narrative angle you highlighted here.
I think the safest way we can touch upon the ancients in a way adjacent to the current story (i want it to be unrelated mind you) is through a custom delivery npc and that's it.
There's flaws to this i recognise but i think it's a safe and minor way to go back to elpis which was underutilised (very understandable narrativley) outside of 6.0 and pandaemonium.
Custom delivery seems interesting at first, Anden worked pretty well, but then I hit a problem of... like, what context could there possibly be for an Ancient to want us to give them hand-crafted/gathered stuff?
I personally hope is there is anything Ascian related, that is kept as at most as dealing with the fall out of whatever plans they had in the works before the death of zodiark, or at maybe it takes up a bozja/eureka style zone as side content not major main story stuff. But I feel the story of the Ancients have a good close due to Endwalkers MSQ.
Dawntrail has a lot to do right, and honestly I feel this could be just a make or break as ARR was back in the day. I know I at least trust the team given I have been along for the ride the whole time since the ps3 beta for ARR.
I think it's a different scale of make-or-break.If ARR didn't work there just wasn't goign to be any more FFXIV at all; I think if Dawntrail doesn't work, there will be more, but its reputation will become 'the show you stop watching after season four'.
Part of that is that there is a level of assurance, though. While there's a lot riding on Dawntrail in story especially, it's a tone-setter for all of FFXIV after this point, there's only so wrong it can go; not only is the gameplay gonna be solid regardless, but the broad story choices we already know they've made were the right ones.
The only thing at the moment that seems remotely related to ancients we'll be getting in DT seems to be in Solution 9 and the Arkadion, if all the theories turn out correct at least. But outside of that I think we're in for some brand new things! Tural's going to be great to explore and learn about, including the Solution 9 stuff. After that I think we're going to continue exploring Meracydia and get more lore on the dragons and potentially the aftermath of Allag's actions on that continent. Hopefully we learn more about Ilsabard in the future too, it's still rather clouded there! One last thing I can imagine is inter-shard travel and we get to learn more about what's happening in the remaining ones. Maybe somewhere down the line we're going to see the First and Thirteenth's efforts to restore each other's balances! I mean they hired Gaia's voice actor for that one scene!
TLDR - Still so much to be excited about after the ancients!
Yeah, I didn't want to say it, but I think it's ultimately kinda unimaginative to be ONLY thinking about what possible Ancient-related plot hooks are ahead of us. Tural alone is offering a whole bunch of impressive plot hooks.
My hope is 'nothing. They had a good story let's focus on other things now. Enough allagans, enough Ancients for a good long while.'
I really hope you're right and we don't get more ancients in DT. Like maybe a little bit of post fall what the first people did just before and after the sundering maybe, but lot as the main driving force.
There is one more possilbe arc that could be takeing out of the ainchients, though the Asccians but actualy dealing with them. Copping and acceptance. They have well and truly lost at this point, but they still exist. so how will the Asccians and through them the Aincheints process this fact? Try and make new goals? Withdraw into themselves? Take a truly crazy route and try to deny their foe (WoL) victory even if they have lost? Heck, there is enough of them that you could have plots dealing with all three and other possible routes.
Yeah, there's the notion of doing stories about the lingering Ascians that aren't really 'Ascian' or 'Ancient' stories. That's something that I internally roll into the last category, but it's definitely not a given.
Thanks RUclips for recommending this! But yeah, I agree with the video entirely. Despite some quibbles I largely enjoyed EndWalker for what it is and then found the discourse around the whole Venat genocide/saving The Ancients afterwards and was left sort of scratching my head. It was one of those "Did they play the same game I did?" moments that still leaves me puzzled to a large extent. I can't help but agree that maybe it was the framing of the story with, to be frank, Emet Selch so front and centre that failed the narrative in that regard. Had we only had Hythlo around (and maybe not even really spent much time in Elpis at all) it would likely have worked better.
Of course, there's also the factor of a certain subset of players who had decided years and years ago that Hydaelyn was "the villain" who were just never going to accept a story in which that wasn't the case (not saying she was the "good guy" either of course, which the game made very clear to me at least).
I think that for a lot of those people, there's no Elpis rewrite that would 'fix it' for them, because they made up their minds back in Shadowbringers.
This is only kind of tangential to stuff you touched on in this video, but I feel like Venat gets a lot of hate she doesn't deserve for what she did, too. It's like, she's not actually the god she represented herself as for all those years, she's just a woman. She had the *tiniest* bit of foreknowledge about one possible way that the future could play out acceptably, and in order to *keep* it that way she had to thread a needle from twelve thousand years away. Of *course* she didn't want to tell anyone what was going on! That could fuck everything up!
PS: I love your hair!
Honestly, I feel like most of the people that give Venat shit were just looking for an excuse to; they already decided she was wrong and bad, so they were going to turn anything they could into proof of the stance they already had.
And thanks! I got it dyed for a wedding, and the color's stuck in for a while.
Tbh, I always thought that whole discourse regarding if the Ancients could be saved was a bit strange. Not just because that whole discussion misses the point of an overall theme of the story, but any scenario where the Ancients are saved would always come at the cost of the world as we know it. Our WoL's journey, the places we've been to, the characters we've come to love, all of it would have never been a thing. Tragic as their fall is, is their existence more important than everything we have now?
It was the crux of our conflict with Emet-Selch. He was nostalgic of a time that is no more, and found the present wanting because it did not live up to his lofty standards. The Scions opposed him because the believed that all those who live in the present have a right to life, imprecations and all. Endwalker pretty much stated outright that an imperfect existence grants us the strength to overcome life's sorrows, something the Ancients could never do, as they were drunk on bliss.
Agreed, although I'd point out that it's more 'knowingly imperfect' than anything. The Ancients had some PROBLEMS, they were just in too much denial to really grasp that.
I do have an idea on how the remaining 2 (or possibly 4, if Gaius couldn't finish the job properly) could show in Dawntrail and not feel like a bad idea.
They are limited in numbers, and cannot pose a serious threat as you said. But what about a comedic threat? What if the remaining Ascians run afoul of a dapper gentleman in a damaged suit after his recent flight west?
ruclips.net/video/AqTmMUdKlO4/видео.htmlsi=pT1QOfmla9IuCiKJ
This is the best idea as long as you don't ask an Ascian fan, they'd be SO mad.
Well said. Great video and great topic. We still don't like Hermes, nor do we fully like how the fall of the Ancients happened. But do agree they are a flaw group of people and there godlike beings was going to be there downfall someway shape or form base on their personal failings as people.
When you're the strongest thing in your world, then that just means that whenever you fall, it'll be your own fault somehow. The Ancients fell to that.
@@EinDose well said.
So im writing this before watching the video, but I personally want the Ancients to stay dead. There is so much of the world of Eitherys we dont know. frankly, the world is pretty much an open slate. There could be continents that exist that we havent heard of.
However, there are two thing i would like to see touched upon in the future, the mask/sigil of Azem. I feel that is one thing we should have gotten. Granted i know they dont want to go to overboard given how rp heavy some people are with this game. But Azem is a Title, one that was held by another character that isnt us.
The other thing im curious about, is how having a full ancient(ie our lovely Emet, possibly Hyth) being reborn will affect things. Like there is gonna be a singular person with a vast Aetheric ability. I feel like thats gonna have some sort of consequence. be it good or bad.
BUt other than those two things, i want the Ancients to stay dead.
The developers have said that when an unsundered soul gets reborn, it'll be a regular baby with higher aetheric capacity. So don't imagine some kind of mega-baby, and more just imagine a black mage that never has to pivot into ice phase for MP regen.
My own figuring says it'd take decades even in-universe, too; Gaia took eighty years to be reborn, and the Aitiascope showed us that even Livia and Rhitatyn are still in the early stages. I wouldn't expect that plot point to eventuate within the game's present day, you'd need a MAJOR time jump.
I kind of understand them. The woman I loved died very young and if I'm being totally honest - I would do some pretty crazy things to bring her back. It's a very selfish desperation that no amount of ethics or morals can impede. I would bring her back and nobody on this earth would stop me. Am I Emet Selch lol?
I like to hope you're not, just because I think at some point along the line you'd have an 'are we the baddies' reflection that he clearly didn't have.
I know this is probably a better comment for your video talking about him specifically, but just because Hermes was right, doesn't free him from the all the things that he is accusing others of. He is in charge of Elpis and mourns predators that have to be put down for killing other creations, rather than using his position to try and find away against such violence being breed for. The way he treats meteon is like a pageant mom, forcing his dreams onto a child with no concern with what they actually want. Meteon repeatedly talks about how she wants to eat, but he made her in such a way that she cannot, she loves to talk but struggles to speak in a depiction often associated with a lack of people wanting to listen, he even says himself, "Someone else will teach you to walk", because he knows how she was raised is not ok. For just one moment there was hope that he cared about helping Meteon, and feared the convocation would just put her down, but then he made it clear his intention was to keep her suffering so she could give him his answer.
He's not a man who's perfect about his solutions, but it should be noted he is better about them. Like, Kairos exists primarily as a kindness to prevent unnecessarily unmaking of creations. And sure, he's not scoring 100% on his parenting exam for Meteion (if 'parent' is even the right comparative relationship), but he's still doing better than anyone else in Elpis.
@@EinDose He is if nothing else certainly not the worst parent we see in EW. Poor Eric.
@@bendonatier He's not even in the bottom five, when you consider that if we call him a 'parent', a lot of Elpis NPCs also qualify.
@@EinDose given most of those creatures weren't sapient, just alive I consider them more pet owners honestly.
I get what you were going for with how Hermes treats Meteion, but it's worth remembering that the Meteia were created for a specific purpose. They were sapient because they HAD to be; he wasn't making an offspring with the purpose of raising her. That's why Hermes said what he said. Despite his compassion, Hermes *knows* he's not someone to raise Meteion as a father would. No matter how much he came to love her as one, WAY after the Meteia were sent on their way.
The story was never about the ancients.
It has clear themes and the ancients were instrumental to the themes.
Their purpose is over.
Now, they're an ancient civilization.
We know EVERYTHING about them. With Pandaemonium I would argue we know a little too much about them now. They have nothing to tell.
The question is superfluous.
What do we do with them?
Nothing.
What do YOU do with Ancient Rome in real life?
Nothing.
They're dead. They're the past.
We learned what we had to learn from them and moved on.
Hell, I live ON the land where the Roman Empire started and nobody cares.
They're not important today.
The same with the ancients.
That story is over.
Let's not make FF14 into Dragon Ball and make everything ridicously redundant just because we're afraid of things ending or changing.
They're there.
Their stuff and remnants will play a role every once in a while (I expect their stuff to be demoted to easy plot device every time the story needs it), but they're not a focus point anymore.
And I hope they stay like this.
On a ruder day, this is definitely my line, but for this I felt like it was important to be a lot more open about it. As well as to discuss the notion that, with a game luke this, that isn't necessarily what's gonna happen.
I totally agree. The Ancients are gone, their story was told in full. Etheirys has so much going for it in the present day! I want to explore these new stories, revel in the richness that this world has to offer, and advance the world-state. Watching Eorzea moving past its mistakes and flaws has honestly been so rewarding.
I remember when Merlwyb falsely claimed that it was us vs. them against the "beast" tribes. A zero-sum game of extinction.
It hit so incredibly hard when she changed her tune, recognizing the mistakes of herself and her nation, and starting the first step of making them right.
Yay a new video!!
The Twelve being retroactively staplegunned into the Ascian/Ancient lore hullaballoo is one of my pet peeves with FFXIV's worldbuilding. Same with Omega/Dragons/etc. They could have just been their own thing like the Ronka, Fairies, the Elementals, the Kami, etc. I feel like I have to go out of my way to find the glorious unknown these days. I want a much larger and more diverse lore for FFXIV again. I want mystery and a sense of magic and the unexplained.
I don't want to go to the New World and have every damn mystery be solved by pointing to the f#$king Ancients again.
Let the ancients lie dead and let them remain dead and gone.
The Twelve at least squared the circle in a way I felt satisfied by, albeit partially because it also closes off. And the Omicron and dragon stuff in Ultima Thule wasn't too bad by me, just because it felt sorta natural; if we're going interstellar for a finale, we need to pull in the interstellar figures. That said, I don't want to go back to their wells anytime soon, either.