I agree. I've never had a two stroke penalty for an OB putt, but I've had plenty of them from errant tee shots. This makes perfect sense. Over 50 years of golf I think the most important thing is to not take it too seriously. It's fun. It's a game. As soon as I realized the futility of it, I started to play much better and enjoy it for what it is....A silly game that is fun. I was about 35 when it hit me. It stopped being work and turned into the most fun I could imagine. Only 2 things can happen. You are either going to play well, or you aren't. Either way you get to spend an afternoon drinking beer with friends away from your wives on acres of grass that you don't have to mow.
100% Paul. Enjoyment is by far the top priority and as the great Jack N always says "The game is meant to be fun". Listening to a podcast also today where a PGA Tour coach was saying even the top pros don't absolutely know where the ball is going so us mere mortal amateurs definitely don't do we shouldn't worry too much. It would be nice to be a bit better at it now and again though 😂
After hacking it on weekends and beer tourneys for many years I have finally committed to playing regularly and practicing more often. My scores have improved dramatically as a result mainly because of what OP is saying- the long game. Being able to get on the green in 2 on a p4 or 3 on a p5 makes all the difference. I am gunning for sub 90 this season hope to do it soon!
@@PNW_Sportbike_Life I shot 88 at my local course about 6 weeks ago from the whites @5300yds. On Tues I shot 90 from the blues@5840 yds -5 pars, a birdie, 7 bogies and the rest doubles...playing 3x a week
At 66, I'm hitting my drives longer than ever.. Avg about 250 yds. But, the biggest improvement in my game these passed two years is in approach shots. Practicing my long clubs throughout the winter and becoming steadily more accurate with them. So that, this year, I've had more than half my rounds in the 70's. Realy enjoyed the information in this video.
as a 22.5 handicap, I totally agree!!! IF I play in a scramble - and everyone takes the best drive, I will shoot in the mid to low 80's! Using my drive, I break 100, but usually in the mid to low 90's!!
I've been enjoying the content made by "real" golfers. I've just taken up the game and have heard many of the platitudes you mention. I'm finding that putting is relatively easy to improve and can practice it a lot (watched your reviews of mats for example). However hitting one's irons and fairway clubs into the woods, bunkers and other kinds of trouble adds way more shots to one's score than even more than occasional three putting. Takes double bogies into snowman territory very quickly. Get it on the green asap like Jack said. It's particularly valuable to get a realistic and statistically verified view of scoring. Fun to watch the best but keeping it real is healthier psychologically. Realist expectations can keep the day fun and allow improvement to evolve. Thanks for the content.
Thanks R Estey and delighted you’ve taken up this great game. There’s a lot of fun and to be had playing it and hope you keep enjoying it. And by the sounds of things you’ve seen already everyone is a much better golfer off the course and on RUclips than they are in real life 😂 Ignore the pros, keep the expectations realistic and the big numbers off the scorecard as you say and all will be good! Good luck!
I’ve wondered about this for decades. Your proof of stats helps to solidify my intuition and is a rather relaxing vetting piece of information. Thanks for your valuable investigation. 🤓👍
Nice explanation of the handicap system. My granddaughter, who just turned 14, has a handicap around 3. She played in a variety of leagues and tournaments, with distances between 5400 and 6200 yards. Her last 4 18s were 75, 75, 76 and 80. Rounds before that were in the mid 80s. She is a single plane player and will hit fairways 12-14 per round. Her putting is coming on strong and has turned the corner on pitching. She will out drive most of the girls she plays, 250-275. But it has been the putting lately that has set her apart. She is not there yet as some of the girls she competes against shoot below par, but it has been fun to watch her improve. Thanks again for the explanation and yes, I am a proud grandpa.
That's great Tom and hope your granddaughter keeps getting better and most important enjoying the game. Hoping my daughter can follow her great example in the years to come!
I never thought about this because as I have aged and don’t play anymore my scores have ballooned to over 90. When I was younger and consistently shot between 75 to 83 I hit my drives long and straight- making my approach shots easier. Now I am older and out of shape I don’t hit the ball very long - I find myself struggling on my approach shots.
Maybe having the long game helps a little in your scoring, but if you dont have a decent short game, what good is it if you 3 putt every green or cant get out of bunkers, etc. Being 73 yo, I dont have the long ball distance i used when I was younger and I need that decent short game to make up for loss of distance with those clubs. So I work more on the short game. At my age now I shoot more in the mid 80's where when I was younger was in the mid to high 70's.
I completely agree with you! Case-in-point, I am 52 and have been playing golf for just over a year. I play with my Dad, who is 84, and has been playing since the late-1960s. While I can outdrive my Dad off the tee box (I hit from the senior tees with him when we play together), he is lights out from 100 yards in. He consistently hits 9 irons and wedges on or near the green, and then almost always 2-putts. My pitching and chipping are not nearly as consistent, and I often 3-putt. It makes a huge difference in our scores. If I play really well and he is a bit off, I might beat him by 1 stroke. If we play our normal game though, he beats me by 8-12 strokes every time.
Pro quotes can be a bit misleading for the 95% who average above 80. If you make 6 foot putts most of the time, and can chip to 6 feet most of the time, you should be in the hunt for a sub 80 score on any given day. If you can make those 6 foot putts, less pressure on the chips (and long putts). If you can chip to 6 feet, less pressure on the approach shots, and thus the tee shots. Blown holes are often the result of trying to get all the work done early, especially on the difficult holes. Blown holes mess up the card much more than missed birdies. It takes modest practice to chip and putt well, but everyone loves pounding them at the range...
This is exactly what I was thinking. The short game is the best way to lower scores for the average golfer in addition to keeping the ball in play. I am young and can hit it far which certainly help my scores. However, I have hovered between a 3-6 handicap and I average about 30-35% FIR and GIR. I get up and down about 60-70% of the time. If you want to be the world's greatest golfer then yeah absolutely its all the long game, how far can you hit it do give yourself the highest probability of hitting shots within 10ft on 90%GIR. For us amateurs being able to relax on recovery shots and approach shots is huge, the lack of pressure really helps me swing my best.
Over the past 20 years, I've lost 30 yards off the tee (and was never that long to begin with). At 58, the white tees look mighty inviting. Still the same 8 handicap though. Practicing what I preach...
I pull out a sub 90% club only if the 10% is not fatal. When I do and it doesn't end well, I made a bad decision. Those really bug me. Very few holes will begrudge you a bogey, with decent chipping and putting. It allows you to look forward to one half of the game, and will often mean that you walk to the next tee in good spirits. It always gets under the skin of your playing partners...
Agreed that pro stats aren't always applicable to the us mere mortals but think great thing about Mark Broadie's analysis was that it showed the same thing across all standards of amateur and pro golfer. And that is if you want to make a step change in your scoring the long game is the better thing to focus on. All aspects of the game are important of course and improvements in your short game can definitely happen faster to lose strokes quicker but there is a limit to how low you will go with that approach. Pros miss 1/3 of putts from 6 feet also so an amateur relying on holing alot of 6 footers across a round may be a risky strategy?
That was interesting to learn. Although I suspected this when I spent considerable time and money on the 3wood and 2 hybrids and I hit a much greater numbers of greens. I haven't scored this well in 30yrs.
I've recently been using top tracer at the range and after using there top tracer 30 app I've found I'm upto 5 shots above my handicap sometimes more. I showed my local pro and he said 'you must have one hell of a short game to get your handicap down to that level'(18). And he's right I regularly putt under 30 putts per round and I had a chipping contest with him and beat him 3 zip 🤫. My weaknesses is long approaches. I'm good inside 80 meters but poor outside that. Driving is ok about 200 m on average and hitting 55 to 60 percent of fairway.
@@zazhou 100 yards would be a pw or gw depending on the day, I have a dodgy back so I've found my distances can depend on that but a club or so. 56 deg would be about 80-85 yards on average.
I definitely agree that the long game is probably more important than the short game. If you can hit your drive in the fairway, then land your approach shot on the green, all you need is a two putt for par. And par won’t kill you, doubles and triples will
Working on my handicap of 16.8. Amazing how many people I play golf with will mark a 4 after the tee shot went OB and they had to hit another or drop at the out spot and don’t give themselves a penalty stroke. When you count every stroke it’s hard to break 90 let alone 80
Long game may explain 2/3's of the difference in scores between those shooting 80 and 100 but that is only because higher handicaps often play the wrong tee's. If higher handicaps move up significantly not just from 6700yards to 6300yds but to 5600-6000 then the short game will start to materialize as the difference maker. I play to a 5 handicap and all too often people I get paired up with are playing the wrong tees.
Think you're absolutely right Stephen in terms of people playing off wrong tees too often but don't agree if they do it then makes the short game the difference maker. The analysis on the importance of the long game over the short game has been proven to be true statistically across all levels irrespective of what tees people play off. Saying that though I hope you manage to persuade your playing partners to move up a tee box or two. At the very least they will definitely enjoy it more!
If most recreational players shoot these scores, the benchmark of "par" becomes very moot. Golf is truly a two-tiered game. Having fun is my measurement of par. My par is also 1 over the conventional par. Once I started with that as my benchmark, I started to enjoy playing much more I had a great time yesterday, shot 5 over par, my par and enjoyed the round.. As an older golfer the value of my short game as well as the value of staying out of trouble has led to more consistency. I play with a few guys who are boomers off the tee, but consistency beat them in score.
Think your tactic of using your own par is much underused by amateurs Phillip and it definitely works in my view. Had a friend of mine in his 50s recently who was trying to break 80 for the first time after years and years of trying change to this approach and within a couple of months he's now broken 80 3-times!
Personally, handicap numbers have been strange. I'm currently a 7, yet I break 80 like 1/3 of the time, or less. But the times I do, that score seems to really count or something. Even when I've been a 5, it seems I only break 80 1/2 the time at best. For about 6 months back in the 90s I was a 4; I think I went 10 rounds in a row below 80, sometimes at par. Getting under a 5 is extremely hard, and I can't really imagine what it's like to be a real 2 or a real scratch. Lots of players claim to be such (those two numbers are the most common 'bragging' ones IMO), but once I play with them, their weaknesses begin to show someone that doesn't post every round. Hence, the reverse sand bagger IMO.
Quotes and stats can be misleading and misinterpreted. Mark broadie also says that strokes gained quantifies each shot compared to an average. He says that to get markedly better at golf you need to improve at every aspect and treat the game as a whole rather than just a set of individual skills. The other thing to remember is that averages are the middle of the good and the bad. If I hit my 7 iron 10 times. 5 go 150 yards and 5 go 50 yards my average would be 100 yards. If I hit my 7 iron from 100 yards out on the course I would never hit the green. It's very interesting, from my own experience, if you asked me to break 100 I would hit 7 wood almost everywhere over 160 yards, I'd chip or pitch to the middle of the Green and I'd concentrate solely on lag putting. If I do that I can shoot low to mid 90's easily and consistently. If you asked me to break 90 I would have to hit it further off the tee to stand any chance but I'd still have to keep the ball in play and chip and putt better too.
No doubt Mark Broadie acknowledges the need to improve all aspects of the game but his analysis is absolutely clear on the importance of the long game over the short game across all levels of the game. He'd also absolutely disagree with your strategy to hit 100 vs 90. He did 1000s of simulations comparing playing for accuracy vs distance and going for distance always won out!
I feel like most commenters here are acting like what's being said is "ignore your short game". This isn't the case. He's saying that there is an incorrect stigma for golfers to put all there focus on the short game instead of making sure you aren't hitting your second shot out of the woods. From the perspective of someone who shoots around 100, consistency is what matters in all aspects of the game. We all know that golf is nuanced and that every hole plays different, but I have seen many players that don't have good access to driving ranges that could putt me under the table, but couldn't set the ball on the fairway from 150 yards and and up shooting in the 110s and 120s.
Couldn't agree more. 👍No part of the game can be ignored but as you say the stats are now clear that the historical focus on the short game over the long game through various sayings and myths has been now proven wrong. Long game makes up the majority of the difference between all standards of golfers but for sure that doesn't then mean you can get round without your short game functioning as well.
The longer I drive it, the worse my 2nd shot is. It's purely psychological. It's like I'm delighted to drive it 280 and then I don't mind too much if i fluff the 2nd. True story.
Playing from the regular tees I can regularly break 100 without using a driver. Five iron off the tee. Eliminates OBs. Three on, 2 putt, 4 on, 2 putt. Par 3s, well, there’s the chance for pars. Make just one par and guess what happens? The approach and short game are key. Your percentage total leaves on approach shots bc as your overall score drops the percentage of your putting strokes goes up. If you shoot a 90 how many putts are in that score? At least 30, add in approach shots and your percentage is way off.
Added comment on video talking about handicaps: I have also seen through the years golfers with handicaps and use it to their advantage in tournaments by shooting lower than their handicap depicts. They keep their handicaps up somewhat and then when they shoot below their handicap and say, I guess I had a lucky day. I also see this in league play. I played against one guy that had a handicap, I shot pretty good, but with the other guys handicap, I lost the match in 5 holes by him paring holes and giving him birdies with handicap. I know some tournaments disqualify the player if he doesnt shoot near his handicaps.
Sadly Dathyr, people not being entirely honest with their handicaps does happen although thankfully not very often in my experience. I remember playing in a pro-am event in Portugal once and the winning team won by over 20 shots! They were allowed to keep their winnings but asked never to come back. On the whole however as I say I think its only a very small proportion of golfers who do this and hopefully that will always remain the case.
Thank you for this insight! Although yr figures are from US, probaly there is some resemblance with Europe too. Probably in Asia hcp scene can be diffetent? No idea on that.
Thanks Kari and delighted you found the video useful. With the introduction of the world handicap system this will help everyone have a realistic comparison across the world which is a great thing!
This is interesting, but does it apply so much to higher handicappers? We’re not going to hit greens nearly as often, so we’re using the short game every hole. 1 chip per hole vs 1.5 chips per hole makes a big difference. I might be an exception, but according to the V1 game app I’ve been using this year, I’m losing my strokes gained on short game and putting.
According to Mark Broadie's analysis it applies to all levels of golf Marcel, including the high handicappers. The better handicappers stats for short game aren't always as good as you think they are so the gains they make their are not as much as 1 vs 1.5. That's not to say the short game is not important its just that the long game is more important.
@@GolfingFocus I think I might be an outlier. I've been using the V1 app this year, and compared to a 25 hdcp, my driving is usually +1 strokes gained, my approach is sometimes -5 and sometimes +5, but my short and putting each average -3 SG compared to a 25 hdcp. I guess if I straighten out my approach game, the short game becomes less important, but reducing the number of 3 and 4 chip holes might help a lot too. ;)
I’m a 5.2 index did not break 80 till I was 40 why? Course mgt. and equipment. With new drivers I could keep ball in fairways and therefore score better. When I shoot a low round I’m worn out. Reason is I’m analyzing every single shot and putt before I hit it. Wind elevation flag location. If I have a skinny flag near a bunker I’ll take the wide side and try to make a putt. In fairways and tee shots I try to figure for my misses and where I want to miss it. If higher handicaps try that it will chop strokes off your game immediately. Also get to course early work on your short game too many ppl just drive the ball short game save scores. #1 rule if your in trouble just get it on the green period.
Absolute agree Mike that course is a massive area amateurs can easily improve. The great Ray Floyd said it best I think when he said the following - “Don’t take this the wrong way …. the reason people don’t shoot lower scores, to be blunt, is that most people don’t know HOW to play. Not how to swing or how to hit the ball farther; how to play the game”
I drive for dough and putt for show. Seriously though, keeping your ball in play off the tee with decent distance is the most important thing. I dang near broke 80 for the first time last week; almost a single digit index for my home course. (I'm a 15 HCP)
@@PNW_Sportbike_Life 15 huh...well done. My playing partners are 11 and 14. Im a 22 and my issue is when Im on the course with I can tend to fall into the trap of wanting to match their performance which leads to Barnie...Barney Rubble...TROUBLE!
Interesting and encouraging information. Started playing 5 years ago at age 58 but missed two whole years because of pandemic and health problems. Made the best gains this year breaking 100 and regularly playing in the low 90s. I think it confirms what you are saying because I put 90% of my focus on improving my driver and irons. I’ve started getting more pars and even a few birdies on par fives. Pitch shots are pretty good but was struggling with my chipping, witch kept me from playing below 90. But keeping the ball in play with drives and long irons has made a big difference. For me, staying with clubs that I am comfortable with also makes a big difference. I can hit my 5i between 180 to 200yds with role out, but can’t hit my 3w or even hybrids off the deck to save my life. At my age, I think my best strategy is to keep working on my strengths and improve my chipping. I’ll leave the 3w and hybrid for when needed off the tee. Why introduce mores challenges to an already difficult game. ☀️🏌️♂️⛳️
Fantastic John and superb progress given you’ve only been playing such a short time taking Covid into account. Think your strategy of ‘playing comfortable’ has a lot to be said for it. Jack Nicklaus followed it his whole career and it certainly didn’t do him any harm! Hope you start getting regularly into the 80s very soon!
Not gonna say I knew it lol but my scores have been better since I’ve learned how to hit my woods and hybrids better. Was irons only for about a year, was hitting a wall when I decided to try something new
Good question John and difficult to answer. One thing for sure though is that amateurs are overwhelming playing golf courses which are too long rather than too short for them so anyone breaking the scoring milestones would probably score even better if they played off the correct tees. Video on this topic coming soon!
I have been golfing for over 30 years and I have played some of the best and some of the worst courses with many different players. My view is that with the casual amateur golfer everyone is cheating and the score on the card is a work of fiction. Golf by the rules is hard. Most golfers are out to have some fun and socialize and the score is secondary. I know players much better than me that cheat on their score. They just believe that they deserve a lower score. Golf teaches you a lot about people.
I have observed this same thing, otherwise honest people can't seem to remember how to count to 3,4,or 5 and strangely they always underestimate. The more I play (and have worked very hard to lower my own scores) this really bothers me.
@@rickthom46 Hopefully it doesn't happen that often and the vast majority are just trying to do their best. Have only experience 3 people / groups in my years of playing so far whom I would say were posting questionable scores but that's a very small minority.
This isn't about hitting greens folks, its about keeping balls playable. The real devil in the details here are people who put 5 balls OB every round, and don't count the reload or the next shot. We are talking about 8-15 stroke scoring differences here.
OB is 100% a scorecard killer Nicholas and you are absolutely spot on that avoiding them and other big mistakes like hazards, 3-putts etc are key to keeping the big numbers off the card. Important to remember also though to be wary when substituting distance for accuracy and stats are clear that longer approach shots always lead to higher scores!
You can play 18 holes just using irons and still play to your handicap and better. Give it a go , try playing with only 4 clubs in your bag and see how you play . My best is 40 for 9 hole with 4 clubs of your choice and I did not choice a putter in them 4 clubs . Lol
I've done this a number of times, and have shot as well as I do when I use long clubs. Its great practice for these clubs, and most always keeps you in the fairway.
Finnaly, someone says it. I sometimes go out with just one club and shoot within 6 strokes of my normal round. I was told by the author of this channel I should turn that score in. What do any of you think I should do? My favorite is just taking my 3 iron out and shooting an 85 in 18. Really helps with all my clubs. As soon as I clean up my putting, I should be in the 70s regularly.
@@RickRairdon I have a USGA GHIN handicap of 14.6 and I played at my home course’s Super Senior Championship last week. The course has black, blue, white, gold, & red tees and we played from the gold. Due to the slope & tee location, I was given only 8 strokes. For the 2 days, I shot 83 & 81 gross for net scores of 75 & 73. ⛳️
I'd bet most players with Ghin don't play by the rules of golf. Those without hdcp never play by the rules. Most play under rules agreed to by their group. It's an opinion of mine, but I'm confident in my claim
I totally disagree with Rory. Saying is drive for show, putt for dough. Look where many of those 350 drives end up. Short game saves the great ones. Many of the great tournaments have been played on the same courses for decades, and although players hit the ball much farther, the winning scores have not changed that greatly. It is the ones that are deadly with approaches, wedges, and putters that usually win.
I know this video is 3 years old, but that is still after 2019 so what does you mean by "most golfers does not have an official handicap"? After 2019, everyone has an official handicap. Had this video been from before 2019 I would have got it.
Under 70 is 0.0001 of golfers. Most of those are professional. Most of the professionals make no money on the PGA tour. So why would they complain about a competing LIV tour? It gives a couple more professionals a chance to make money. Tiger Woods is my favorite golfer. But for him to complain about the LIV tour is being a hypocrite. He should give some of his billions to the starving professionals, then he would earn a little more respect.
He has plenty of respect, and he would lose respect if he supported a tour funded by theocrat dictators trying to whitewash their grimy, bloodstained image.
When I wanted to try and improve my game, I played the ball down, no mulligans or give me putts and stroke and distance on OB. Unless you play honest, you’ll never know what you actually shoot to try improve upon it. There are a lot of players fooling themselves on their game.
Jack, I agree with you entirely. There is an Australian golf pro called "The Golf Doctor". In one of his videos in youtube, he plays a par 5 with an 8 iron, using a 3/4 swing & a putter. He made a par! Or perhaps you could take a look at this video from Dave Pelz ruclips.net/video/vcCjALGVlmg/видео.html
I agree. I've never had a two stroke penalty for an OB putt, but I've had plenty of them from errant tee shots. This makes perfect sense.
Over 50 years of golf I think the most important thing is to not take it too seriously. It's fun. It's a game. As soon as I realized the futility of it, I started to play much better and enjoy it for what it is....A silly game that is fun. I was about 35 when it hit me. It stopped being work and turned into the most fun I could imagine. Only 2 things can happen. You are either going to play well, or you aren't. Either way you get to spend an afternoon drinking beer with friends away from your wives on acres of grass that you don't have to mow.
100% Paul. Enjoyment is by far the top priority and as the great Jack N always says "The game is meant to be fun". Listening to a podcast also today where a PGA Tour coach was saying even the top pros don't absolutely know where the ball is going so us mere mortal amateurs definitely don't do we shouldn't worry too much. It would be nice to be a bit better at it now and again though 😂
After hacking it on weekends and beer tourneys for many years I have finally committed to playing regularly and practicing more often. My scores have improved dramatically as a result mainly because of what OP is saying- the long game. Being able to get on the green in 2 on a p4 or 3 on a p5 makes all the difference. I am gunning for sub 90 this season hope to do it soon!
did you?
@@PNW_Sportbike_Life I shot 88 at my local course about 6 weeks ago from the whites @5300yds. On Tues I shot 90 from the blues@5840 yds -5 pars, a birdie, 7 bogies and the rest doubles...playing 3x a week
At 66, I'm hitting my drives longer than ever.. Avg about 250 yds. But, the biggest improvement in my game these passed two years is in approach shots. Practicing my long clubs throughout the winter and becoming steadily more accurate with them. So that, this year, I've had more than half my rounds in the 70's. Realy enjoyed the information in this video.
Great stuff and hope the approach shots improvements continue to lower those scores even further! Delighted you found the video enjoyable also.
That's great. 250yds I wish. 70s I wish.
as a 22.5 handicap, I totally agree!!! IF I play in a scramble - and everyone takes the best drive, I will shoot in the mid to low 80's! Using my drive, I break 100, but usually in the mid to low 90's!!
I've been enjoying the content made by "real" golfers. I've just taken up the game and have heard many of the platitudes you mention. I'm finding that putting is relatively easy to improve and can practice it a lot (watched your reviews of mats for example). However hitting one's irons and fairway clubs into the woods, bunkers and other kinds of trouble adds way more shots to one's score than even more than occasional three putting. Takes double bogies into snowman territory very quickly. Get it on the green asap like Jack said.
It's particularly valuable to get a realistic and statistically verified view of scoring. Fun to watch the best but keeping it real is healthier psychologically. Realist expectations can keep the day fun and allow improvement to evolve.
Thanks for the content.
Thanks R Estey and delighted you’ve taken up this great game. There’s a lot of fun and to be had playing it and hope you keep enjoying it. And by the sounds of things you’ve seen already everyone is a much better golfer off the course and on RUclips than they are in real life 😂 Ignore the pros, keep the expectations realistic and the big numbers off the scorecard as you say and all will be good! Good luck!
I’ve wondered about this for decades. Your proof of stats helps to solidify my intuition and is a rather relaxing vetting piece of information. Thanks for your valuable investigation. 🤓👍
Thanks for the feedback and delighted you found the video helpful!
Nice explanation of the handicap system. My granddaughter, who just turned 14, has a handicap around 3. She played in a variety of leagues and tournaments, with distances between 5400 and 6200 yards. Her last 4 18s were 75, 75, 76 and 80. Rounds before that were in the mid 80s. She is a single plane player and will hit fairways 12-14 per round. Her putting is coming on strong and has turned the corner on pitching. She will out drive most of the girls she plays, 250-275. But it has been the putting lately that has set her apart. She is not there yet as some of the girls she competes against shoot below par, but it has been fun to watch her improve. Thanks again for the explanation and yes, I am a proud grandpa.
That's great Tom and hope your granddaughter keeps getting better and most important enjoying the game. Hoping my daughter can follow her great example in the years to come!
that's LPGA driving distance.
I never thought about this because as I have aged and don’t play anymore my scores have ballooned to over 90. When I was younger and consistently shot between 75 to 83 I hit my drives long and straight- making my approach shots easier. Now I am older and out of shape I don’t hit the ball very long - I find myself struggling on my approach shots.
It's an incredibly tough game Michael no doubt. Hope you keep enjoying it though and get to play a bit more.
et closer to to green ...move to short distance tee like whit or light blue or yellow
Maybe having the long game helps a little in your scoring, but if you dont have a decent short game, what good is it if you 3 putt every green or cant get out of bunkers, etc.
Being 73 yo, I dont have the long ball distance i used when I was younger and I need that decent short game to make up for loss of distance with those clubs.
So I work more on the short game. At my age now I shoot more in the mid 80's where when I was younger was in the mid to high 70's.
I completely agree with you! Case-in-point, I am 52 and have been playing golf for just over a year. I play with my Dad, who is 84, and has been playing since the late-1960s. While I can outdrive my Dad off the tee box (I hit from the senior tees with him when we play together), he is lights out from 100 yards in. He consistently hits 9 irons and wedges on or near the green, and then almost always 2-putts. My pitching and chipping are not nearly as consistent, and I often 3-putt. It makes a huge difference in our scores. If I play really well and he is a bit off, I might beat him by 1 stroke. If we play our normal game though, he beats me by 8-12 strokes every time.
Pro quotes can be a bit misleading for the 95% who average above 80.
If you make 6 foot putts most of the time, and can chip to 6 feet most of the time, you should be in the hunt for a sub 80 score on any given day. If you can make those 6 foot putts, less pressure on the chips (and long putts). If you can chip to 6 feet, less pressure on the approach shots, and thus the tee shots. Blown holes are often the result of trying to get all the work done early, especially on the difficult holes. Blown holes mess up the card much more than missed birdies.
It takes modest practice to chip and putt well, but everyone loves pounding them at the range...
This is exactly what I was thinking. The short game is the best way to lower scores for the average golfer in addition to keeping the ball in play. I am young and can hit it far which certainly help my scores. However, I have hovered between a 3-6 handicap and I average about 30-35% FIR and GIR. I get up and down about 60-70% of the time. If you want to be the world's greatest golfer then yeah absolutely its all the long game, how far can you hit it do give yourself the highest probability of hitting shots within 10ft on 90%GIR. For us amateurs being able to relax on recovery shots and approach shots is huge, the lack of pressure really helps me swing my best.
Over the past 20 years, I've lost 30 yards off the tee (and was never that long to begin with). At 58, the white tees look mighty inviting. Still the same 8 handicap though. Practicing what I preach...
I totally lose my strokes gained on blown holes. I often play at a
I pull out a sub 90% club only if the 10% is not fatal. When I do and it doesn't end well, I made a bad decision. Those really bug me. Very few holes will begrudge you a bogey, with decent chipping and putting.
It allows you to look forward to one half of the game, and will often mean that you walk to the next tee in good spirits.
It always gets under the skin of your playing partners...
Agreed that pro stats aren't always applicable to the us mere mortals but think great thing about Mark Broadie's analysis was that it showed the same thing across all standards of amateur and pro golfer. And that is if you want to make a step change in your scoring the long game is the better thing to focus on. All aspects of the game are important of course and improvements in your short game can definitely happen faster to lose strokes quicker but there is a limit to how low you will go with that approach. Pros miss 1/3 of putts from 6 feet also so an amateur relying on holing alot of 6 footers across a round may be a risky strategy?
That was interesting to learn. Although I suspected this when I spent considerable time and money on the 3wood and 2 hybrids and I hit a much greater numbers of greens. I haven't scored this well in 30yrs.
I've recently been using top tracer at the range and after using there top tracer 30 app I've found I'm upto 5 shots above my handicap sometimes more. I showed my local pro and he said 'you must have one hell of a short game to get your handicap down to that level'(18). And he's right I regularly putt under 30 putts per round and I had a chipping contest with him and beat him 3 zip 🤫. My weaknesses is long approaches. I'm good inside 80 meters but poor outside that. Driving is ok about 200 m on average and hitting 55 to 60 percent of fairway.
Hope you can make some improvements on the long game Peter with that great short game!
Impressive short game! What iron do you use for 100 yards and how far (or short) do you hit 56° wedge? Rgds
@@zazhou 100 yards would be a pw or gw depending on the day, I have a dodgy back so I've found my distances can depend on that but a club or so. 56 deg would be about 80-85 yards on average.
I definitely agree that the long game is probably more important than the short game. If you can hit your drive in the fairway, then land your approach shot on the green, all you need is a two putt for par. And par won’t kill you, doubles and triples will
110%. Getting those high numbers off your card is one of the single biggest important things when it comes to scoring well.
Working on my handicap of 16.8. Amazing how many people I play golf with will mark a 4 after the tee shot went OB and they had to hit another or drop at the out spot and don’t give themselves a penalty stroke. When you count every stroke it’s hard to break 90 let alone 80
Sad it happens but unfortunately more than any of us would like!
Long game may explain 2/3's of the difference in scores between those shooting 80 and 100 but that is only because higher handicaps often play the wrong tee's. If higher handicaps move up significantly not just from 6700yards to 6300yds but to 5600-6000 then the short game will start to materialize as the difference maker. I play to a 5 handicap and all too often people I get paired up with are playing the wrong tees.
Think you're absolutely right Stephen in terms of people playing off wrong tees too often but don't agree if they do it then makes the short game the difference maker. The analysis on the importance of the long game over the short game has been proven to be true statistically across all levels irrespective of what tees people play off. Saying that though I hope you manage to persuade your playing partners to move up a tee box or two. At the very least they will definitely enjoy it more!
If most recreational players shoot these scores, the benchmark of "par" becomes very moot. Golf is truly a two-tiered game. Having fun is my measurement of par. My par is also 1 over the conventional par. Once I started with that as my benchmark, I started to enjoy playing much more I had a great time yesterday, shot 5 over par, my par and enjoyed the round.. As an older golfer the value of my short game as well as the value of staying out of trouble has led to more consistency. I play with a few guys who are boomers off the tee, but consistency beat them in score.
Think your tactic of using your own par is much underused by amateurs Phillip and it definitely works in my view. Had a friend of mine in his 50s recently who was trying to break 80 for the first time after years and years of trying change to this approach and within a couple of months he's now broken 80 3-times!
Personally, handicap numbers have been strange. I'm currently a 7, yet I break 80 like 1/3 of the time, or less. But the times I do, that score seems to really count or something. Even when I've been a 5, it seems I only break 80 1/2 the time at best. For about 6 months back in the 90s I was a 4; I think I went 10 rounds in a row below 80, sometimes at par. Getting under a 5 is extremely hard, and I can't really imagine what it's like to be a real 2 or a real scratch. Lots of players claim to be such (those two numbers are the most common 'bragging' ones IMO), but once I play with them, their weaknesses begin to show someone that doesn't post every round. Hence, the reverse sand bagger IMO.
Quotes and stats can be misleading and misinterpreted.
Mark broadie also says that strokes gained quantifies each shot compared to an average. He says that to get markedly better at golf you need to improve at every aspect and treat the game as a whole rather than just a set of individual skills. The other thing to remember is that averages are the middle of the good and the bad. If I hit my 7 iron 10 times. 5 go 150 yards and 5 go 50 yards my average would be 100 yards. If I hit my 7 iron from 100 yards out on the course I would never hit the green.
It's very interesting, from my own experience, if you asked me to break 100 I would hit 7 wood almost everywhere over 160 yards, I'd chip or pitch to the middle of the Green and I'd concentrate solely on lag putting. If I do that I can shoot low to mid 90's easily and consistently. If you asked me to break 90 I would have to hit it further off the tee to stand any chance but I'd still have to keep the ball in play and chip and putt better too.
No doubt Mark Broadie acknowledges the need to improve all aspects of the game but his analysis is absolutely clear on the importance of the long game over the short game across all levels of the game. He'd also absolutely disagree with your strategy to hit 100 vs 90. He did 1000s of simulations comparing playing for accuracy vs distance and going for distance always won out!
Thanks for very good suggestion
I feel like most commenters here are acting like what's being said is "ignore your short game". This isn't the case. He's saying that there is an incorrect stigma for golfers to put all there focus on the short game instead of making sure you aren't hitting your second shot out of the woods. From the perspective of someone who shoots around 100, consistency is what matters in all aspects of the game. We all know that golf is nuanced and that every hole plays different, but I have seen many players that don't have good access to driving ranges that could putt me under the table, but couldn't set the ball on the fairway from 150 yards and and up shooting in the 110s and 120s.
Couldn't agree more. 👍No part of the game can be ignored but as you say the stats are now clear that the historical focus on the short game over the long game through various sayings and myths has been now proven wrong. Long game makes up the majority of the difference between all standards of golfers but for sure that doesn't then mean you can get round without your short game functioning as well.
great info. thx!
No problem, delighted you found the video helpful
The longer I drive it, the worse my 2nd shot is. It's purely psychological. It's like I'm delighted to drive it 280 and then I don't mind too much if i fluff the 2nd. True story.
Playing from the regular tees I can regularly break 100 without using a driver. Five iron off the tee. Eliminates OBs. Three on, 2 putt, 4 on, 2 putt. Par 3s, well, there’s the chance for pars. Make just one par and guess what happens?
The approach and short game are key. Your percentage total leaves on approach shots bc as your overall score drops the percentage of your putting strokes goes up. If you shoot a 90 how many putts are in that score? At least 30, add in approach shots and your percentage is way off.
Added comment on video talking about handicaps: I have also seen through the years golfers with handicaps and use it to their advantage in tournaments by shooting lower than their handicap depicts. They keep their handicaps up somewhat and then when they shoot below their handicap and say, I guess I had a lucky day. I also see this in league play. I played against one guy that had a handicap, I shot pretty good, but with the other guys handicap, I lost the match in 5 holes by him paring holes and giving him birdies with handicap. I know some tournaments disqualify the player if he doesnt shoot near his handicaps.
Sadly Dathyr, people not being entirely honest with their handicaps does happen although thankfully not very often in my experience. I remember playing in a pro-am event in Portugal once and the winning team won by over 20 shots! They were allowed to keep their winnings but asked never to come back. On the whole however as I say I think its only a very small proportion of golfers who do this and hopefully that will always remain the case.
Dont really care for sandbagging either
I'm a 22.4 handicap. My best is 87. Par for me is bogey golf.
I play for bogey 1.5, if that's a thing. Basically 99 would be my par on a course with 117 slope.
@@marcelguldemond2523 anytime I break 100 I'm ok with that.
Thank you for this insight! Although yr figures are from US, probaly there is some resemblance with Europe too. Probably in Asia hcp scene can be diffetent? No idea on that.
Thanks Kari and delighted you found the video useful. With the introduction of the world handicap system this will help everyone have a realistic comparison across the world which is a great thing!
This is interesting, but does it apply so much to higher handicappers? We’re not going to hit greens nearly as often, so we’re using the short game every hole. 1 chip per hole vs 1.5 chips per hole makes a big difference.
I might be an exception, but according to the V1 game app I’ve been using this year, I’m losing my strokes gained on short game and putting.
According to Mark Broadie's analysis it applies to all levels of golf Marcel, including the high handicappers. The better handicappers stats for short game aren't always as good as you think they are so the gains they make their are not as much as 1 vs 1.5. That's not to say the short game is not important its just that the long game is more important.
@@GolfingFocus I think I might be an outlier. I've been using the V1 app this year, and compared to a 25 hdcp, my driving is usually +1 strokes gained, my approach is sometimes -5 and sometimes +5, but my short and putting each average -3 SG compared to a 25 hdcp. I guess if I straighten out my approach game, the short game becomes less important, but reducing the number of 3 and 4 chip holes might help a lot too. ;)
I’m a 5.2 index did not break 80 till I was 40 why? Course mgt. and equipment. With new drivers I could keep ball in fairways and therefore score better. When I shoot a low round I’m worn out. Reason is I’m analyzing every single shot and putt before I hit it. Wind elevation flag location. If I have a skinny flag near a bunker I’ll take the wide side and try to make a putt. In fairways and tee shots I try to figure for my misses and where I want to miss it. If higher handicaps try that it will chop strokes off your game immediately. Also get to course early work on your short game too many ppl just drive the ball short game save scores. #1 rule if your in trouble just get it on the green period.
Absolute agree Mike that course is a massive area amateurs can easily improve. The great Ray Floyd said it best I think when he said the following - “Don’t take this the wrong way …. the reason people don’t shoot lower scores, to be blunt, is that most people don’t know HOW to play. Not how to swing or how to hit the ball farther; how to play the game”
I drive for dough and putt for show. Seriously though, keeping your ball in play off the tee with decent distance is the most important thing. I dang near broke 80 for the first time last week; almost a single digit index for my home course. (I'm a 15 HCP)
@@PNW_Sportbike_Life 15 huh...well done. My playing partners are 11 and 14. Im a 22 and my issue is when Im on the course with I can tend to fall into the trap of wanting to match their performance which leads to Barnie...Barney Rubble...TROUBLE!
That's awesome. Hope you break the 80 barrier soon. Doesn't sound like the single digit goal is far away either. Good luck 👍
A good short game that keeps the pressure off your putter.
Interesting and encouraging information. Started playing 5 years ago at age 58 but missed two whole years because of pandemic and health problems. Made the best gains this year breaking 100 and regularly playing in the low 90s. I think it confirms what you are saying because I put 90% of my focus on improving my driver and irons. I’ve started getting more pars and even a few birdies on par fives. Pitch shots are pretty good but was struggling with my chipping, witch kept me from playing below 90. But keeping the ball in play with drives and long irons has made a big difference. For me, staying with clubs that I am comfortable with also makes a big difference. I can hit my 5i between 180 to 200yds with role out, but can’t hit my 3w or even hybrids off the deck to save my life. At my age, I think my best strategy is to keep working on my strengths and improve my chipping. I’ll leave the 3w and hybrid for when needed off the tee. Why introduce mores challenges to an already difficult game. ☀️🏌️♂️⛳️
Fantastic John and superb progress given you’ve only been playing such a short time taking Covid into account. Think your strategy of ‘playing comfortable’ has a lot to be said for it. Jack Nicklaus followed it his whole career and it certainly didn’t do him any harm! Hope you start getting regularly into the 80s very soon!
We should all be able to shoot closer to par if we play the correct tees. Many golfers don't - maybe it's an ego thing...
Big believer in this too Bob and think we are all guilty of playing the wrong tees 90% of the time. Another topic we will cover very soon!
Nuts even if you’re a short hitter there’s so much more that goes into the game.
Not gonna say I knew it lol but my scores have been better since I’ve learned how to hit my woods and hybrids better. Was irons only for about a year, was hitting a wall when I decided to try something new
That's great news and delighted your scores have started coming down. Hope the trend keeps going 👍
How do the different tees play into this
Good question John and difficult to answer. One thing for sure though is that amateurs are overwhelming playing golf courses which are too long rather than too short for them so anyone breaking the scoring milestones would probably score even better if they played off the correct tees. Video on this topic coming soon!
Excellent work thanks !
Many thanks Fergus. Delighted you enjoyed it!
We just play 9 holes and like to be under 40 stroke's! But not always! Cheer's
I am 77 and shoot my age or better about half the rounds. So I got that going for me.
Awesome Roy. That's great scoring!
I have been golfing for over 30 years and I have played some of the best and some of the worst courses with many different players. My view is that with the casual amateur golfer everyone is cheating and the score on the card is a work of fiction. Golf by the rules is hard. Most golfers are out to have some fun and socialize and the score is secondary. I know players much better than me that cheat on their score. They just believe that they deserve a lower score. Golf teaches you a lot about people.
Golf is very very hard Joe. That is for sure.
I have observed this same thing, otherwise honest people can't seem to remember how to count to 3,4,or 5 and strangely they always underestimate. The more I play (and have worked very hard to lower my own scores) this really bothers me.
@@rickthom46 Hopefully it doesn't happen that often and the vast majority are just trying to do their best. Have only experience 3 people / groups in my years of playing so far whom I would say were posting questionable scores but that's a very small minority.
This isn't about hitting greens folks, its about keeping balls playable. The real devil in the details here are people who put 5 balls OB every round, and don't count the reload or the next shot. We are talking about 8-15 stroke scoring differences here.
OB is 100% a scorecard killer Nicholas and you are absolutely spot on that avoiding them and other big mistakes like hazards, 3-putts etc are key to keeping the big numbers off the card. Important to remember also though to be wary when substituting distance for accuracy and stats are clear that longer approach shots always lead to higher scores!
You can play 18 holes just using irons and still play to your handicap and better. Give it a go , try playing with only 4 clubs in your bag and see how you play . My best is 40 for 9 hole with 4 clubs of your choice and I did not choice a putter in them 4 clubs . Lol
I've done this a number of times, and have shot as well as I do when I use long clubs. Its great practice for these clubs, and most always keeps you in the fairway.
Finnaly, someone says it. I sometimes go out with just one club and shoot within 6 strokes of my normal round. I was told by the author of this channel I should turn that score in. What do any of you think I should do? My favorite is just taking my 3 iron out and shooting an 85 in 18. Really helps with all my clubs. As soon as I clean up my putting, I should be in the 70s regularly.
Very few strokes separate the best golfers with that 0.0001% group at any time.
My handicap is 29.6 and I just shot 92 on a par 72 does that mean that I subtract 29.6 from 92? If so then I would net around 10 under right?
It would depend on the difficulty (slope) of the course and tees you are playing to determine your gross score (92) to net score.
@@thomasesparza9175 63.7 and 107 gold tees.
not black, blue or white.
@@RickRairdon I have a USGA GHIN handicap of 14.6 and I played at my home course’s Super Senior Championship last week. The course has black, blue, white, gold, & red tees and we played from the gold. Due to the slope & tee location, I was given only 8 strokes. For the 2 days, I shot 83 & 81 gross for net scores of 75 & 73. ⛳️
Johnny Miller said Tiger's best advantage was his length off the tee.
DAM !!!! I FEEL GREAT CAUSE I SHOOT IN THE 70'S
I'm 75 and shoot 89 to 92.
I'd bet most players with Ghin don't play by the rules of golf. Those without hdcp never play by the rules. Most play under rules agreed to by their group. It's an opinion of mine, but I'm confident in my claim
I totally disagree with Rory. Saying is drive for show, putt for dough. Look where many of those 350 drives end up. Short game saves the great ones. Many of the great tournaments have been played on the same courses for decades, and although players hit the ball much farther, the winning scores have not changed that greatly. It is the ones that are deadly with approaches, wedges, and putters that usually win.
Surely a 4-time major winner and regular world No.1 can’t be totally wrong?
Moral of the story: Golf is very hard so don't take it so seriously and don't put so much expectation on yourself.
Couldn’t agree more! 👍
interesting.
And I don't manage bogey golf all that often.
I know this video is 3 years old, but that is still after 2019 so what does you mean by "most golfers does not have an official handicap"?
After 2019, everyone has an official handicap.
Had this video been from before 2019 I would have got it.
100
You are not far off there!
meanwhile me as a 14 year old breaking 90 consistently
That's great Kyle. Keep it up and hope breaking the 80 barrier comes soon!
Under 70 is 0.0001 of golfers. Most of those are professional. Most of the professionals make no money on the PGA tour. So why would they complain about a competing LIV tour? It gives a couple more professionals a chance to make money. Tiger Woods is my favorite golfer. But for him to complain about the LIV tour is being a hypocrite. He should give some of his billions to the starving professionals, then he would earn a little more respect.
He has plenty of respect, and he would lose respect if he supported a tour funded by theocrat dictators trying to whitewash their grimy, bloodstained image.
How many are they gimme. You will find it more I would say 105 for men when no gimme are not in play you up set men when you say no gimme
When I wanted to try and improve my game, I played the ball down, no mulligans or give me putts and stroke and distance on OB. Unless you play honest, you’ll never know what you actually shoot to try improve upon it. There are a lot of players fooling themselves on their game.
your percentage for scores under 80, 90, 100, 110, 120 is confusing.
Thanks for the feedback Chuck. Will take another look and see if we can improve it for future content 👍
It took you almost 11 minutes to say that the long game is more important than the short game. A waste of time if you ask me.
Unless he backed it up with actual stats, along with quotes from the best players in history, most wouldn't give any credence to what he's saying.
Jack, I agree with you entirely. There is an Australian golf pro called "The Golf Doctor". In one of his videos in youtube, he plays a par 5 with an 8 iron, using a 3/4 swing & a putter. He made a par! Or perhaps you could take a look at this video from Dave Pelz ruclips.net/video/vcCjALGVlmg/видео.html