The reverse trigger is so that you can play A♭ on the 7th partial without it being ridiculously flat, since there is no 2&3 combination. Source: marched (until injured) with Velvet Knights, 1988.
being now accustomed to BBb tubas, I again had the rare chance to play a G Contra for a legacy alumni corps performance and forgot the bore of these monsters is somethnig like .085" larger and required at least a third more air it seemed. I was so much younger then and had no trouble filling the big horn. Playing it now I was winded quickly haha. Even with 2 valves or valve/rotor they were heavier than today's Bb band instruments. you are so right, a line of 55 or 60 horns back then would out power the usual 72 they field these days by far
+Trent Hamilton It would be really neat if you could get your hands on a three valve bugle! A trumpet in G basically. Drum corps used those for a very short period before finally switching to the normal Bb and F horns they use today.
Well...he DOES have a marching bari on the shelf behind him....but it's probably a Bb model. He should do an ergonomic comparison between 80s bari models. The Kings we used in BD had the valve cluster a comfortable distance from the face....some of the ones Garfield Cadets used had them WAY too far out (watch the 83 vid....some good shots of those things)
I don't have a marching baritone on the bench behind me; there's a Frumpet in F, a mellophone in F, a solo horn in Eb (the big instrument), a bugle or two, a trumpet, and a flugelhorn.
Nice job explaining the bugle. I played on a 2 valve bugle (flugle horn) in the Blue Devils D&B Corps. I loved playing that horn and being in that Blue Devils hornline.
We had quite a few of these stashed away in the attic of our High School Auditorium 40 years ago. They were ROTC Drum and Bugle Corps instruments no longer in use. had some tenor and bass bugles as well. Wish I had "rescued" one.
1.) From the factory they played in tune at room temperature (say, 68º F) with the slide out less than an inch. The slide is made long because these were most often played when the temperature was above 100º F most of the day when rehearsals were ongoing. At night, when most competitions are held, the temps can be more than 20º F cooler. These ensembles would tour upwards of 30,000 miles in three months and travel from Canada and the New England area into places like South Texas or New Mexico or Arizona. The temps in the southwestern part of the US in August at about 4:00 p.m. can be close to 110º F (pull waaaay out) and the evenings in Canada in June can be in the high 50º range (push waaaaay in). This is why the slide is so long. That yours is so far out at room temperature is more a factor of yours probably having something wrong with it. (This can be worn piston plating, a leak in the bugle, the leadpipe being tapered incorrectly when manufactured - these were inexpensive horns.) I have *never* seen such an extreme slide position out in the heat, much less in a nice, cool interior space. 2.) These horns have no 3rd valve, as you have adroitly pointed out. In treble clef an Ab normally is played 23. Ab above the staff on one of these horns is played 1st with the slide pulled in to raise the very flat harmonic. Very simple. The slide is the correct length for a G instrument (much longer than one in Bb) when it is out. Pull in for that nasty high Ab played 1st and you are good. This slide also allows the player to fix the flat 1st valve D on fourth line. Just pull in enough to get it where you need it. I believe the slide is cut so that it is far enough out to correct sharp 12 combinations that would normally receive a slide lengthening on a trumpet. 12 all the way in on a trumpet would require the player to pull in on the slide about a half inch or so. So the reverse springing of the first slide on a two piston soprano allows the player to fix the normal 12 pitch discrepancies as well as the slightly flat 4th line D and then gives you one of the only upper notes that *needs* a 3rd valve. Until you get down to the second space Ab the horn is fully chromatic. The limitations on the bugles required some extremely talented arrangers for the top corps, whose music book was generally supremely difficult to play. Hiding the missing notes took some tremendous arranging skills. 3.) The bore and bell throat on these are very large. They were meant to be played very loudly outdoors without getting too edgy. The very best of the G two-piston bugles were made by King. The Dynasty II horns were very common but not well regarded by most. The King soprano was the K-20 if you would ever like to find one for yourself. It is a very nice instrument. I have two K-90 contrabasses, a K-80 euphonium (which is huge), a K-70 baritone and a K-60 French horn, all very nice players with warm tone and good intonation. I have three Dynasty II horns (sold by the DEG company) and all have *issues* so yours playing grossly sharp is not really a surprise. 4.) Eventually the super long main slides were dropped. The King K series 2-piston bugles used normal length main slides, more or less. When the DCI Rules Congress allowed fully chromatic, three-valved horns in G what the manufacturers produced pretty much all had normal length tuning slides. The horns then became sharp just about all the time outdoors, again, this being their main place to be played. The eventual solution for many corps was to switch all tuned percussion instruments (on the front sideline and known as "the pit") that are made to the A=442 standard. These instruments go flat as they get hot and the brass (already very sharp for A=440) would meet them in the middle for a very pleasing intonation in the ensemble. Here is a short video of a corps playing these exact horns in 1985. It is some material from the Bernstein "Jeremiah" Symphony. It is about half the show. Interesting material, avoiding all those missing notes. ;-) Well played on these odd, inexpensive horns, too, I think. ruclips.net/video/huQWtCAFFlM/видео.html Nice video. I just thought I would clarify what to you were minor mysteries. Cheers!
Above 100 degrees? Most corps were in NY/NJ/Penn/New England and the MidWest. Not often 100 degrees, even on a bad day. You are right that intonation is an issue when playing outdoors. Not that anyone cared back in the 1960s when I marched - the intonation was terrible, and there was no place on the judges' sheet for intonation scoring, so why worry?
I'm a drummer, forgive me. Wow, you are smart & knowledgeable. Thank You for this Great Post ! Today is Valentine's Day, 2022. Why would the US Marine DBC JUST NOW SWITCH from 2 to 3 Valves, yet REMAIN Playing G Bugles ? A. I understand 1970-80s 2-Valve intonation problems. B. I've heard? that the Maynard-Ferguson-esque Sopranos at Disney's *Future Corps really enjoyed Screaming in G as opposed to Bb ? BUT WHY ? Bore resistance ? (Me Drummer !?? ) Upper Overtone-Partials-Thingy Reasons ? I will now A. Gladly Revisit Garfield Cadets playing '85 Bernstein (Legendary Show!) right after I research the word "Adroitly" ? :)
@@tjinc-bus4672 i was told they remained on 2 valves because USMC rules were if they switched to 3 valve they would no longer be considered a drum & bugle corps, just a band, and USMC already has one (or two?). just what i was told. obviously someone got that changed. as far as staying in "G"? because b flat basically is weak outdoors in my opinion (and 10's of thousands others). Key of "g" projects sound much better. thats why DCI has 75-80 horns and still don't project sound as good as the old 55-65 person horn lines did. and bflat bugles have never given me goosebumps and make the hair on the back of my neck stand up like the "g"'s could 😀
You explained the instruments very well sir. I was a lead soprano for The Star of Indiana their first year. 1985. I then was a lead/soloist soprano for the United States Marine Drum & Bugle Corps in Albany Georgia. I got to where I hated playing. I thought it would be fun. Nope. I took 27 years off and now it's fun again to just play along with my music minus one recordings. Anyway, I love your videos and look forward to seeing more.
I knew you guys would make finals when I saw you at Drums Along the Mohawk. I was stationed at Griffiss AFB in town at the time. Only 1 year removed from BD and my fingers were itching to play again.
I did Star of Indiana after they left DCI, 94-97. Great group, awesome staff. We still had the two valve bugles in 94 but also had the Canadian Brass line of concert brass and switched back and forth.
The spring loaded slide on the 1st valve slide allows the higher A flat note to be played in tune. While this note is played 23 on a 3 valve instrument. the harmonic of seven half have lengths played with the 1st valve is quite close to A flat above the staff. However this is very flat. The spring loaded slide corrects that when pushed in. This allows a full chromatic scale above the middle E concert. (A on that bugle)
The reason why that instrument's upper register is easier: It is because older generation trumpets were designed to work with the mouthpieces made for them. The conventional mouthpieces we see today were meant to work best with the older trumpets, example, trumpets in the key of A. With the invention of the B flat trumpet, they used the same mouthpiece as a the A trumpets thus giving us a difficult and out-of-tune upper register. David Monette, owner of Monette trumpets, describes this very well in one of his videos on his channel. That is why you experienced a easier upper register on that bugle.
A little late to the game, but, since I didn't see the answer in the comments.... Traditional drum corps music is written in treble clef with the same transposition as a regular trumpet: the tuning pitch is called C and is written in the third space of the treble clef. (G baritone bugles and G contrabass bugles also are written in treble clef, and all G bugles call the tuning note "C", even though it's really a concert G.) As you noted there are a few notes that can be played on a trumpet that cannot be played on a 2-valve soprano bugle in G. Those notes are (keeping in mind that "C" is really G): • The Ab/G#, G, and F#/Gb below "middle C" (the octave below the tuning C),• The Eb/D#, D, and Db/C# above "middle C",• The Ab between "middle C" and "tuning C", and, most problematically,• The "high Ab" above tuning C. (Sort of. More on this below.) As you rightly pointed out, it's easier to play "high" on these horns because you're buzzing your lips a minor third less fast to produce a particular note than you'd have to buzz on a concert pitch instrument. So, due to the missing low notes and the relative ease of playing high, most (traditional) drum corps arrangers choose keys that result in most players (especially leads) playing consistently higher notes than they probably would in a marching band. Furthermore, note that, starting with the low E, the entire chromatic scale is available all the way up, with the exception of the low Ab and the high Ab. There wasn't much that the arranger could do about the low Ab...but, as any trombonist can tell you, you can ALMOST play a high Ab in tune in that weird partial below high C. The high A can be played with second valve and the high Ab with first valve, but they're unacceptably flat. And THAT is why the G bugle has the odd first valve tuning slide with the spring that pushes it out. It can be used to fine tune other notes, but its REAL purpose is so the lead soprano players can play the high Ab in tune without having to lip it sharp.
I started with a single valve bugle, moved on to the two valve version and then onto the three valver; all "G' horns. The Drum Corps International "bugle" bands play B flat instruments. They have added everything one can purchase at a well-stocked musical instrument shop. We call old-timers call these ersatz organizations, brass bands. What an exceptional series about bugles. Thank you and well done, Trent Hamilton
These sorts of instruments were used from the late 70s to the early 90s. Before then, DCI (Drum Corps International, the biggest competition circuit for drum corps) allowed only instruments with one rotary valve and one horizontal piston. After that, they allowed three-valve instruments, though they still had to be in G. In 2000, they legalized brass instruments in any key with any number of valves so long as they were bell-front instruments and not trombones or sousaphones. In 2014, they legalized all brass instruments, though so far no corps has had a section spend the whole show on anything other than trumpets, flugelhorns, mellophones, baritones, euphoniums, and tubas. As of 2016, most corps use Bb instruments (except for mellophones, which are in F), and of the ones that still use G (only one of which is active in DCI- all the others are in smaller circuits), all of them use 3-valve instruments except the US Marines drum corps, which has its 2-valve instruments custom-made for them. ruclips.net/video/s4b3q0l6Hk8/видео.html is a segment from Phantom Regiment's 1989 show, using 2-valve G instruments, and ruclips.net/video/NvHfn6NlO7M/видео.html is a video taken by a trumpet player in the 2016 DCI champion corps, the Bluecoats, using a Bb trumpet for most of the show and a Bb flugelhorn for a solo. The footage comes from the encore performance the corps gave after they won and from their rehearsal earlier that day.
Bone-Tone Lord Fun fact: the Oregon Crusaders I believe are fielding a full line of sousaphones for the 2017 season instead of the regular contra bass bugles.
Trent....you should review other G brass....mellophone, flugelhorn, French horn, baritone, euphonium, and contrabass (if doing a contra, find a King K-90....best 2 valved contra ever made)
Of all the 2 piston bugles on Earth, he had to pick the Dynasty. Of the 2v's Benge made a nice one called "American Heritage" and as Sam points out King (with Zig Kanstul doing the design) made the best of everything on the field, and yeah, the "contrabass" is/was a fine horn, made even better with the 3rd valve that gave corps some serious bass sounds. Absolute worst part - mid 70s, you could only replace one voice at a time, which caused '78 Bayonne to buy a whole set of horns including 1 valve mellos and contras. What a mess. Could've had the entire set for about the same price, except for the wisdom of DCI. You thought they only started making bad decisions in the 21st Century? Nah....
They always made bad decisions. But as time went on they got badder. It is hard to put one's finger on that exact spot in time where DCI stopped being drum corps and became marching band. But it is there somewhere between now and then.
Trent deserves to have so many more subscribers. He puts so much work and money into his videos. But now that I'm finished, great work. Keep up the wonderful content.
In the Drum Corps world the move away from simple valveless bugles began after one corps monkeyed with the tuning slide to use it as a trombone slide, to add up to one step, and went into a contest playing diatonic melodies that no one else could play.
I played the soprano bugle in High School and it was equipped with one valve and a rotor. We were the only public school drum and bugle corps marching band at the time which placed us in a category of our own which gave us the advantage of always winning in competitions.:). The truth is that we needed All the help we could get. It was a very small school and the only way to get enough people to form a band, we had to recruit 5th & 6th graders from the nearby elementary school. So you can imagine all the situations that arises when you have a group of 11 year olds traveling with 19 year olds. It was a great experience and our band director took the entire band to London England in 1976 to play for the Queen in the Celebration of America's 200th birthday. I was already in the US Army by then and missed the trip but alot of my friends went. I'm trying to find a bugle like the one I played back then, and that is how I came upon your site. Thanks for sharing.
The reason for the design of the 1st valve slide was because 1st valve notes -- particularly the D at the top of the staff -- were inherently flat. Play that note and push the slide in to tune it up. There were only 4 notes a 2 valve horn could not play...C#, D, Eb, and Ab below/in the staff. Above the staff Ab was 1st valve and the 1st slid all the way in. It wasn't really much of an issue for the upper and middle brass, but it WAS for the lowers. You just picked a key to write in that minimized those note and/or gave them to the tympani in the pit if they REALLY needed to be there. I played in that era (1984 Blue Devils), and the hardest thing about playing a sop was remembering it was the same fingerings as my Bb trumpet, but a minor 3rd lower. As for significant music...look up Star of Indiana....particularly 1990 and 1991....Walton, and Respighi...or 1993, Barber and Bartok....all on 2 valves (they never went three valves even after they were legalIzed in 1990). Look up ANY drum corps from the 1980s and you'll see that the lack of the 3rd valve was not much of an issue to musical selection.
Nice job, Trent! I've been affiliated with America-land Drum & Bugle Corps since 1958, plaing Soprano, French Horn, Mellophone, Flugel-bugle, and others. We started out with just a single valve. We played halftones by using an emory cloth on the tuning dlide and oiling it up (halftones were always sharp, but you learned to "lip it up"!). Later a ring on the tuning slide, then a rotor: two handed play was challenging but fun. I started arranging in 1966, and being a horn instructor about the same time. Wanted to add Bb instruments and revive the "C" basses back in the late '60's, but rules prevented it. Now, all Drum Corps use Bb instrumentation. Have you ever heard or watched them lately? Carolina Crown! Did you know that bugles were originally made in the key of G because that key carried the furthest on the battlefield! I really enjoy your sense of humor, Trent ... thank you!
The 1st valve slide is spring loaded out on a 2 piston bugle for one note only: the written G#/Ab above the staff, which would be concert D#/Eb. This note is the 7th harmonic on the 1st valve (F harmonic series) of the bugle. The 7th harmonic is usually a quarter step flat on all instruments, which is why it is fingered differently. On any standard treble clef transposition, your written G#/Ab above the staff is fingered 2+3, with 1 as an "alternate" that is to be avoided. In order to allow the bugle to be fully chromatic from C in the staff to C above the staff, the 1st valve alternate fingering for G# must be employed. Dynasty, Olds, and King all standardized on having a purposely short 1st valve slide that is spring loaded, and therefore tuned, in the "out" position. You then push it in for the 7th harmonic to assist in bringing the note closer in tune. Getzen made a small run of 2 piston bugles in the mid 1980s, about 1,800 horns total, and employed an even stranger design on their sopranos. The getzen 1st valve slide was built at the correct mathematical length in the standard flow design (one inner slide and one outer slide on the horn and the same on the valve crook), however, the Getzen inner slides were built excessively long, allowing the 1st slide to be pulled out nearly a half step before coming off. This allowed Getzen horns to approximate a 2+3 valve combination using 1+2, and giving Getzen horns a competitive advantage since they could not only play the written top G#, but also the G# in the staff, the Eb at the bottom of the staff, and the low G# below the staff.
The two valve bugles are played all around the Philippines. All voices: soprano, tenor, baritone and basses are played. All players play by ear which is common in the Philippines. Are the bugles cheaper than their three valve instrumental counterparts?
You are a much better trumpet player than I ever was, but my junior high trumpet playing band leader told us not to put our little finger in the hook, and to play the valves with our fingertips. He said by leaving our little finger out of the hook we had more dexterity. We also stuck our right thumb in between the first and second valves to steady the instrument.
For six weeks in 1969, I played the one valve soprano bugle at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio Texas. We , the drum and bugle Corps , for the 3700 basic training group , played for the parades that the basic trainees marched in . Once we flew down to Harlingen Texas in a c-119 flying boxcar , and played for them . Also we played for Armed Forces Day in the parade in downtown San Antonio . I played the trumpet in high school... A 1965 Bach Stradivarius as a matter of fact... So the transition to the bugle was simple, although I do not remember the fingering, or better described, the thumbing.
Ive been in drum corps since 1970. And i can tell you the old g horns regardless of the valve structure is much better for outdoor playing. The b flat horns just dont have the brightness and sonority in outdoor playing as the g horns.
As long as he's not in a uniform required setting it really doesn't make a difference, as long as it sounds fine. Some of the best trumpeters ever, looked horrible while playing. Puffing cheeks, clambering valves.
The purpose of the horizontal valve on that single-valve bugle was to remain hidden. When you’re several feet (or meters) away in the press box, it’s hard to see that singular valve when it’s horizontal.
The first valve slide is sharped so you adjust it to be in tune with the spring. For 1 and 2 combinations you pull it out. The reason you can push it in is to play an e flat concert on the seventh partial, normally an unusable and unnecessary partial on a valve instrument. This makes the horn chromatic from the lower e concert.
When I was in marching band in high school our band director showed us a film showcasing the Bridgemen drum & bugle corps who had a talented soprano bugle player. The trumpet players in my band tried in vain to imitate him.
The spring loaded first valve trigger was to sharpen your (assuming you are a trumpet player) G#. Worked rather well. So, from E on the staff on up the horn was chromatic. Some of the older piston rotor horns even had a way to sharpen the G# to make them play in tune. Back when I played, the older piston rotor horns were being phased out and the two valve horns were standard. You are showing the Getzen horns. The Olds horns were very good as well if not better. King made a very very good line of the two valve horns as well. The sharpened first valve was standard on horns until the three valve horn took over. (1990?)The soprano played like a very bore, very very loud cornet. As far as I know, all of the music was transposed. Some corps had the baritones and contras reading treble, like trumpets, and some had them reading (transposed) bass. The all G pitched lines had a particular sound. A sound that a lot of us miss.........
I played a one piston one rotor contra... if you think the pitch slide on the soprano is wild, you should try using the one on the old contras... slide distance is about 6 inches (15cm) and since it was on your rotor hand, using it made the horn VERY unstable. I've still got the old beast, it's a wallhanger now.
The reasoning behind the early horizontal valves (played with the thumb), and the rotary valve, was to keep the instrument 'looking like' a bugle - at least from a distance.
The sharp tuning and long tuning slide is by design... being an outdoor competition they have to handle cold temperatures in the fall and scotching hot temperatures in the summer. Tuning varies wildly under those conditions.
My first brass instrument was a drum corps bugle. My folks could not afford a trumpet/cornet at first so this was a transitional instrument. I learned a lot at first. When I got a real cornet and joined high school band I discovered these bugles had intonation problems. I don’t know if that was the quality of construction or what but you could never transpose with a key of G bugle to play any band or orchestral music. They were always horribly off pitch. I don’t know if the engineering is any better today. I’m still grateful for having started music in a drum and bugle corps. And I always liked the “esprit de corps” much more than marching band.
My daughter marched with a modern DCI corps this summer, the blue stars. Modern trumpets. She is also helping out an "all age" DCA corps to finish off their season. This corps (Cincinnati Tradition) is still marching bugles. In their case, 3 Valve, G Bugles.
You'll find a good number of DCA corps still using the 3 value bugles and most alumni corps will use them to keep tradition and history as they present how they play and perform in the early days of drum corps since it was DCA started the modern style of marching and competition of drum corps in the states we see today in 1964 coming from VFW. DCI started to use trumpets and some of the top competitive DCA corps soon followed for the same reasons. But I missed that dark, organic sound of G bugles from those corps as I sure do miss mine.
My bach 42b strad (the inside loop version) has a longer tuning slide for the f attachment, if you look at one the whole stretch from the trigger to the tuning slide is a tuning slide. Sorry if O just confuzled you
I was in the Anaheim Kingsmen drum & bugle corps in 1977-78. 1977 was the first year DCI rules congress allowed for 2 piston soprano bugles. We played on the Kanstul made "American Heritage" sopranos which were originally attached to Benge.(Kanstul was making Benge horns at the time) Then in 1978 DCI allowed for the baritones to go 2 piston and we had a couple guys in the hornline playing those. The whole idea was to remain in G for being the official Boy Scout and US Military bugle key, starting with no valves, then the 1 piston then adding a rotary on the opposite side to be the "2nd valve" then again switching to the 2 piston in 1977. Into the 80's DCI finally allowed for THREE piston bugles but they had to all still be in G pitch. The sopranos are not quite the same bore as trumpets as they're usually BIGGER in size. Average trumpets are around a .460 bore size whereas the 2 piston G sopranos we played were a whopping .468. Add to that being pitched in G it took a lot of air out of you. Some people think this bigger bore made them louder but really it's the heavier brass material they're made from, the larger bell throat(can't hold a harmon mute or cup without adding cork) and the finishes being heavy chrome/nickel. I play tested a couple of 3 valve DEG G sopranos, one being silver finish the other in chrome/nickel. Exactly the same horns but the chrome/nickel one was louder.
I don't get it. at what point do they just swap out the drum and bugle corps' bugles with trumpets. I thought the point of bugle music was to sound like a bugle.
Up until 2000, the rules specified ALL brass was to be bell front (like a trumpet), 0 to 3 valves (2 valve uprights like the sop in this vid starting in 77 or 78....3 valves starting in 90), and in the key of G. Trumpets are in a multitude of keys....but nothing in G until 3 valves were legalized for 1990. DCI went any-key brass in 2000. Modern DCI corps are all on Bb horns for all brass except mellophones (which are in F....easier to tune).
No, and no. The note the harmonic series is based upon for both euphoniums and contras in a marching band (and now in most corps as well) is B♭. Due to an archaic naming system, contrabass instruments traditionally get the letter doubled, so you have F and E♭ tubas, which are considered "bass tubas". Contrabass tubas are those in CC and BB♭. The doubled letter means "an octave down", not "double flat". Euphoniums are at the same pitch as tenor trombones, and (confusingly) so are baritones which in theory should be somewhere between tenors and basses. -- but they're not, baritones are tenor-pitched instruments, and E♭ tenor horns are alto-pitched instruments (and they are appropriately called alto horns in North America). The names of the pitch classes have changed over time. It used to be that "bass" meant "one octave down from the normal size", like bass clarinet, bass oboe, bass flute. However, in modern parlance, the word "tenor" now describes this role. Tenor saxophone and bass clarinet play at the same pitch, and bass saxophone is _two_ octaves below the soprano! Normally bass instruments are only HALF an octave below the tenor instruments, "baritone" is not a specific pitch class, and the octave below tenor is called contrabass. Saxophones violate all three of these naming conventions: Sopranino is in E♭ above concert pitch, soprano is B♭ and occasionally C, alto is E♭ below that, tenor is B♭ or occasionally C, baritone is E♭ below that or in rare historical cases in F, and bass saxophones are in B♭ and again very rarely in C -- the first saxophone ever exhibited to the public was a bass in C. Also there are very rare "mezzo-soprano" saxophones in between the alto and the soprano, pitched in either F (Conn) or G (Jessen). Flutes, on the other hand, have the normal concert flute in C. Going upward from there you have the soprano flute in E♭, treble flute in G , then the piccolo in C an octave above. Going downward you have the tenor flute in B♭, a mere whole tone below the concert flute (a totally inappropriate use of the word "tenor"), alto flute in G (in flute-world, alto is lower than tenor), then bass in C an octave below. Oboes have their own nomenclature as well. The instrument smaller than the standard oboe is called a musette and is pitched in F. The instrument larger (and also pitched in F) is the English horn. Note that while they are the sopranino and alto members of the family, those words do not appear in their names. An octave below the standard oboe is bass oboe, pitched in C. This is the same pitch as a _tenor_ saxophone in C. When discussing these old drum corps bugles which were required to be in a single key (in practice, always G), it gets even worse. Soprano and alto are _the same pitch_, but altos are constructed with a darker tone. Baritone and euphonium are the same pitch, and again the euphonium has the darker tone. No instrument is called a tenor. Contras are two octaves below the sopranos (and altos). tl;dr: The names of instrument sizes are inconsistent across instrument families, and you just have to memorize them.
drum and bugle core in america with the exception of military drum and bugle cores all use normal trumpets contras trombone and all of normal brass instruments but military drum and bugle cores all use the the old bugles
Prior to 2000, every American drum and bugle corps used the g bugle instruments. Kanstul still sells the three valve models of each bugle that were common in the 1990s
OOoooooo...to see Sky in competition again in ANY form.....nice! They had a pretty good three show run in 86-88 (88...my all time fave 12th place show)
yess they have a darker, more full tonal quality not just that they are a minor 3rd lower pitched than Bb horns, but have slightly larger bore and bell diams than their Bb contemporaries.
I had the joy of playing several 2 valve bugles in Drum & Bugle core competition back in the 80's. eventually, they just went to Bb and F band instruments because of poor resale value of the G bugles. before 2 valve, they had used valve and rotor, very odd
Just for the record. G/D G/F bugles could out dynamic a Bb line any day . Just listen to the proof on any recording. Just be aware that The brass lines size are also to be taken into consideration . Some one said " you feel the bugles you hear the trumpets " Well said . That also goes for the players feedback of the instrument in the same manner. They dont call it Drum and Bugle Corps for a reason anymore . It isnt . It was once unique, different ,special, now its just another band and dance troupe on a grass field instead of a stage . Progress? HO HUM
So, the scale on the one valve bugle is your upper octave G scale (natural pitch; would be written C if transposed). By playing: 0 1 0 1 0 1 1 0 (1=valve depressed). If you're a trumpet player you can try it using 1 and 3
Actually the main tuning slide on the bugle probably (not 100%) is not the longest, the Cimbasso especially in F comes with a very very long main tuning slide allowing for the instrument to be put in E/ sharp Eb
The valve is out naturally because G bugles are ridiculous to tune to begin with, and adding the first valve slide ability to sharpen a note is helpful in the higher range. Having marched with a drum corps that uses G bugles, I learned that the sops become significantly flat on certain notes in the upper range
He forgot to mention that the single valves on both the G-D soprano and the G-D tenor-baritone are operated by the player's right thumb. The piston-rotor bugles had the horizontal thumb valve plus a rotary valve in the tuning slide operated by the player's left forefinger, so it took both hands to operate the valves. The pitches were first G-D-F. Later on they were changed to be G-F-F#, same interval as the first two valves of a three-valve brass instrument, even though they were still piston-rotor.
A Bit, not sure why or how, but much like the increased range. there is a bit of increased volume. When I marched one of our Techs claimed it was the thrill of playing with the better range and in front of thousands that simply caused you to play louder. But, I've heard a couple of guys who repair them say there is something in their construction that projects sound better. Also, the increased range is no joke, I gained just over half an octave in range on a G Bugle from a Bb Trumpet.
G bugles had a bigger, conic, bore so they tended to project better. While you would "hear" a trumpet, you would "feel" a bugle. Also because they are pitched a minor third lower than Bb horns, they have a different overtones.
@@gentrywalker Speaking for a Bugle / Trumpet dynamic difference. G/F Keyed Bugles can blow the doors off Bb Trumpets .Any Day ! Intonation is another issue though . The bore difference is probably one of the main construction factors and more resistance by the valve block and additional brass. Their also may be a difference in the gauge of the brass . The weight difference may have a bearing on projection and brilliance . Some one said you "feel the bugle you hear the trumpet " Well put. The bugle has more of a ring in your hands,vibration, the trumpet less so. A decibel test/ tone test would be fun
but at this point, besides the name, why not just get a trumpet? Does the bugle perform any differently in tone or pitch, given it shares most of the same characteristics?
g bugles are generally louder. The corps originated from the military and were very concerned about keeping tradition. However in 2000 DCI voted to use any keyed marching brass instrument, and in 2014 voted to include all brass instruments. :)
The bugle is mostly tradition... however it does have have a few differences from a trumpet. I'm in a drum corps that plays 3 valve G bugles, and the big difference is tone. bugles have a very bright tone and can be shrill at times, so corps that use them spend their time learning to produce a more favorable darker tone. the baritone and contrabass and mellophone bugles have very few differences from their Bb/F counterparts, pitch being one of them, but the soprano and trumpet have a few more. the soprano bugle has a bell flare that has a very open throat, (compared to a trumpet which is very narrow and then flares quickly at the end) and gives it a bright sound that can carry further than a trumpet. which is why 15 bugles (with the sacrifice of tone) could probably out play 24 Bb trumpets (a standard DCI trumpet section) It also went down to logistics, early DCI corps could teach kids to play a two valved horn faster, and two valved horns were less expensive. Nowadays corps can easily resell their Bb horns to anyone with ease, so they can afford to start the season with factory fresh instruments every year! before corps would have to save all their money and wait about 5-7 years before replacing their bugles, since the only people interested in buying bugle were other drum corps (usually schools don't want it unless its Bb) I hope this shows some differences between the two types of horns, and why Corps play Bb horns now!
The baritones played those notes that you cannot play on a trumpet as well as it isn't easier to play high notes they are just named higher because of the key of the instrument
2-valve bugles are designed sharp because you are playing these instruments outdoors during the summer months. As everyone knows, brass instruments go flat in heat, so you can slide the main tuning slide in as the day goes by. As you get more tired; you are gripping the instrument tighter and the first valve slide compresses pulling it in tune. Drum corp brass players keep charts of temperature and humidity and can usually move the slides to compensate really fast. Heck, the Concord Blue Devils worked with a manufacturer that now inscribes markers on the main tuning slide to help. When I participated back in the day, we all felt sorry for those playing Dynasty instruments, but even the best Kanstul bugles were built sharp.
Actually, brass instruments go sharper the warmer they get (I presume because the airflow is faster). I'm always pulling my slide out in summer and pushing it in in winter. String instruments are the opposite - they go flat as the metal strings expand.
I played BBb tuba, Contrabass in G, String bass, and piano. The King contras were excellent to play, easy to keep in tune, and did not sound like a brontosaurus farting. That was so much the case back in the 1960's-1970's with drum corps contras. However, if you are serious about tuba, you play a Mirafone. The finest tuba I ever played.
@@jamess8566 Saw a guy at a marching band competition two yrs back that had one from Star, but wouldn't sell it to me. I told him that could have been my horn.
@@stumpmtsr Porgy and Bess....not a bad show. Saw you guys in SoCal...ran into Bill Cook inteh bathroom (kinda hard to miss him with that top hat!). I was a sop in BD in 84 (full beard and glasses with the long camera pass about the 1 min mark in the vid).
When another valve is added, and it's changed to the key of C or Bb. There's also some changes to the overall shape of the horn, specifically the bell.
Did drum and bugle corps ever make it to Australia or NZ? Or is it mainly brass bands down there? The modern "drum corps" activity has fallen on hard times in the US - it has pretty much become an indoor theater/dance activity now where brass playing takes a back seat to interp. dance - there are some nice moments of brass ensemble playing - but for the most part, the activity now relies on electronics and visual elements. With the c19 crisis, the 2020 season has been canceled and many of the organizations will probably not survive. If anyone is interested in what a horn like this would have sounded like back in the olden days, search out a video from any of the drum corps from the 80s (ie, 1988 Madison Scouts or 1986 Blue Devils or 1989 Santa Clara Vanguard) - the activity transitioned into a 3 valve g bugle in the early 90s and then to regular Bb trumpets in the late 90s -
Unless it has a note that requires a 3rd valve, yes....but those notes are C# and D below the staff, and Eb and Ab in the staff. Above the staff there are alternate fingerings....high Ab is 1st valve and push that 1st valve tuning slide all the way in. It was rarely a problem for the upper and mid brass....more of an issue for the lowers.
Just start with something, that is what I do on like minecraft or even building with Legos and then I add on and make it better. Trust me.. I don't have the skills either but I would try and learn......
Yes I do. It starts out as flat sheets of metal that get shaped, bent, welded, and much more to result in the piping and tubing of the instrument. All you really need are the right molds to hammer the the shape of the bell and tubes. Brass sheets, welding skills, and pretty much you can create your own horns.
I miss the sound of G bugles. I’m not here to argue about which is better or worse, obviously the instruments used in drum corps today are far better quality and easier to control, but the sound is undoubtedly different. I don’t know how to put it into words. When a corp would hit you in the face with a big impact moment in the G bugle days the sound seemed to have “sizzle”. Totally unique to drum corps. It’s what made it different.
The reverse trigger is so that you can play A♭ on the 7th partial without it being ridiculously flat, since there is no 2&3 combination.
Source: marched (until injured) with Velvet Knights, 1988.
OOoooooo....that was a good show.
I miss the sheer volume these bugles were capable of compared to the Bb horns used today in DCI
What I don't miss is them being horribly out of tune, good riddens!
Ageed
being now accustomed to BBb tubas, I again had the rare chance to play a G Contra for a legacy alumni corps performance and forgot the bore of these monsters is somethnig like .085" larger and required at least a third more air it seemed. I was so much younger then and had no trouble filling the big horn. Playing it now I was winded quickly haha. Even with 2 valves or valve/rotor they were heavier than today's Bb band instruments.
you are so right, a line of 55 or 60 horns back then would out power the usual 72 they field these days by far
@@ChiptuneDCI 75 Madison was louder!!
Commandants own still uses them!
+Trent Hamilton It would be really neat if you could get your hands on a three valve bugle! A trumpet in G basically. Drum corps used those for a very short period before finally switching to the normal Bb and F horns they use today.
Well...he DOES have a marching bari on the shelf behind him....but it's probably a Bb model.
He should do an ergonomic comparison between 80s bari models. The Kings we used in BD had the valve cluster a comfortable distance from the face....some of the ones Garfield Cadets used had them WAY too far out (watch the 83 vid....some good shots of those things)
I don't have a marching baritone on the bench behind me; there's a Frumpet in F, a mellophone in F, a solo horn in Eb (the big instrument), a bugle or two, a trumpet, and a flugelhorn.
Must be my old eyes, then....because the big silver one sure looks like a marching bari.
sam signorelli No, it's definitely a solo horn in Eb :)
Trent Hamilton how do you afford all these instruments
Nice job explaining the bugle. I played on a 2 valve bugle (flugle horn) in the Blue Devils D&B Corps. I loved playing that horn and being in that Blue Devils hornline.
I was thinking it would be neat if Trent could get his hands on one of the old Meehanphones --
@@tedrickenator Or a trombonium to REALLY screw with him!
What years?
@@LauraAnn210 Rob was 81-85 (I think...81 may have been a B corps year for him). I was 84, in the soprano line.
@@LauraAnn210 I marched in the Blue Devils A hornline 81-85 and marched in the B Corps in 1980.
How can he pull out the carnival of Venice out of nowhere and I'm still trying to learn it slowly jeez but I applaud
And he's a trombone player and Ive been trumpet player my entire life
He's actually a Solo Cornet player primarily.
I'm neither. I'm currently a conductor.
+Trent Hamilton how long have u been collecting instruments and testing them and all
I don't know, sorry :(
We had quite a few of these stashed away in the attic of our High School Auditorium 40 years ago. They were ROTC Drum and Bugle Corps instruments no longer in use. had some tenor and bass bugles as well. Wish I had "rescued" one.
the 2 valve competition bugle. the perfect outdoor instrument.
1.) From the factory they played in tune at room temperature (say, 68º F) with the slide out less than an inch. The slide is made long because these were most often played when the temperature was above 100º F most of the day when rehearsals were ongoing. At night, when most competitions are held, the temps can be more than 20º F cooler. These ensembles would tour upwards of 30,000 miles in three months and travel from Canada and the New England area into places like South Texas or New Mexico or Arizona. The temps in the southwestern part of the US in August at about 4:00 p.m. can be close to 110º F (pull waaaay out) and the evenings in Canada in June can be in the high 50º range (push waaaaay in). This is why the slide is so long. That yours is so far out at room temperature is more a factor of yours probably having something wrong with it. (This can be worn piston plating, a leak in the bugle, the leadpipe being tapered incorrectly when manufactured - these were inexpensive horns.) I have *never* seen such an extreme slide position out in the heat, much less in a nice, cool interior space.
2.) These horns have no 3rd valve, as you have adroitly pointed out. In treble clef an Ab normally is played 23. Ab above the staff on one of these horns is played 1st with the slide pulled in to raise the very flat harmonic. Very simple. The slide is the correct length for a G instrument (much longer than one in Bb) when it is out. Pull in for that nasty high Ab played 1st and you are good. This slide also allows the player to fix the flat 1st valve D on fourth line. Just pull in enough to get it where you need it. I believe the slide is cut so that it is far enough out to correct sharp 12 combinations that would normally receive a slide lengthening on a trumpet. 12 all the way in on a trumpet would require the player to pull in on the slide about a half inch or so. So the reverse springing of the first slide on a two piston soprano allows the player to fix the normal 12 pitch discrepancies as well as the slightly flat 4th line D and then gives you one of the only upper notes that *needs* a 3rd valve. Until you get down to the second space Ab the horn is fully chromatic. The limitations on the bugles required some extremely talented arrangers for the top corps, whose music book was generally supremely difficult to play. Hiding the missing notes took some tremendous arranging skills.
3.) The bore and bell throat on these are very large. They were meant to be played very loudly outdoors without getting too edgy. The very best of the G two-piston bugles were made by King. The Dynasty II horns were very common but not well regarded by most. The King soprano was the K-20 if you would ever like to find one for yourself. It is a very nice instrument. I have two K-90 contrabasses, a K-80 euphonium (which is huge), a K-70 baritone and a K-60 French horn, all very nice players with warm tone and good intonation. I have three Dynasty II horns (sold by the DEG company) and all have *issues* so yours playing grossly sharp is not really a surprise.
4.) Eventually the super long main slides were dropped. The King K series 2-piston bugles used normal length main slides, more or less. When the DCI Rules Congress allowed fully chromatic, three-valved horns in G what the manufacturers produced pretty much all had normal length tuning slides. The horns then became sharp just about all the time outdoors, again, this being their main place to be played. The eventual solution for many corps was to switch all tuned percussion instruments (on the front sideline and known as "the pit") that are made to the A=442 standard. These instruments go flat as they get hot and the brass (already very sharp for A=440) would meet them in the middle for a very pleasing intonation in the ensemble.
Here is a short video of a corps playing these exact horns in 1985. It is some material from the Bernstein "Jeremiah" Symphony. It is about half the show. Interesting material, avoiding all those missing notes. ;-) Well played on these odd, inexpensive horns, too, I think.
ruclips.net/video/huQWtCAFFlM/видео.html
Nice video. I just thought I would clarify what to you were minor mysteries. Cheers!
Excellent history lesson!
Above 100 degrees? Most corps were in NY/NJ/Penn/New England and the MidWest. Not often 100 degrees, even on a bad day. You are right that intonation is an issue when playing outdoors. Not that anyone cared back in the 1960s when I marched - the intonation was terrible, and there was no place on the judges' sheet for intonation scoring, so why worry?
Thx .XD
I'm a drummer, forgive me. Wow, you are smart & knowledgeable. Thank You for this Great Post ! Today is Valentine's Day, 2022. Why would the US Marine DBC JUST NOW SWITCH from 2 to 3 Valves, yet REMAIN Playing G Bugles ? A. I understand 1970-80s 2-Valve intonation problems. B. I've heard? that the Maynard-Ferguson-esque Sopranos at Disney's *Future Corps really enjoyed Screaming in G as opposed to Bb ? BUT WHY ? Bore resistance ? (Me Drummer !?? ) Upper Overtone-Partials-Thingy Reasons ?
I will now A. Gladly Revisit Garfield Cadets playing '85 Bernstein (Legendary Show!) right after I research the word "Adroitly" ? :)
@@tjinc-bus4672 i was told they remained on 2 valves because USMC rules were if they switched to 3 valve they would no longer be considered a drum & bugle corps, just a band, and USMC already has one (or two?). just what i was told. obviously someone got that changed. as far as staying in "G"? because b flat basically is weak outdoors in my opinion (and 10's of thousands others). Key of "g" projects sound much better. thats why DCI has 75-80 horns and still don't project sound as good as the old 55-65 person horn lines did. and bflat bugles have never given me goosebumps and make the hair on the back of my neck stand up like the "g"'s could 😀
You explained the instruments very well sir. I was a lead soprano for The Star of Indiana their first year. 1985. I then was a lead/soloist soprano for the United States Marine Drum & Bugle Corps in Albany Georgia. I got to where I hated playing. I thought it would be fun. Nope. I took 27 years off and now it's fun again to just play along with my music minus one recordings. Anyway, I love your videos and look forward to seeing more.
I knew you guys would make finals when I saw you at Drums Along the Mohawk. I was stationed at Griffiss AFB in town at the time.
Only 1 year removed from BD and my fingers were itching to play again.
Albinny MC did a performance in Nahunta GA in 1986? 87? at a Marching Band Competition held at their HS. I was there, they were great.
accurate alloys Suncoast Sound 1984/1985 here.
I did Star of Indiana after they left DCI, 94-97. Great group, awesome staff. We still had the two valve bugles in 94 but also had the Canadian Brass line of concert brass and switched back and forth.
The spring loaded slide on the 1st valve slide allows the higher A flat note to be played in tune. While this note is played 23 on a 3 valve instrument. the harmonic of seven half have lengths played with the 1st valve is quite close to A flat above the staff. However this is very flat. The spring loaded slide corrects that when pushed in. This allows a full chromatic scale above the middle E concert. (A on that bugle)
The reason why that instrument's upper register is easier: It is because older generation trumpets were designed to work with the mouthpieces made for them. The conventional mouthpieces we see today were meant to work best with the older trumpets, example, trumpets in the key of A. With the invention of the B flat trumpet, they used the same mouthpiece as a the A trumpets thus giving us a difficult and out-of-tune upper register. David Monette, owner of Monette trumpets, describes this very well in one of his videos on his channel. That is why you experienced a easier upper register on that bugle.
A little late to the game, but, since I didn't see the answer in the comments....
Traditional drum corps music is written in treble clef with the same transposition as a regular trumpet: the tuning pitch is called C and is written in the third space of the treble clef. (G baritone bugles and G contrabass bugles also are written in treble clef, and all G bugles call the tuning note "C", even though it's really a concert G.)
As you noted there are a few notes that can be played on a trumpet that cannot be played on a 2-valve soprano bugle in G. Those notes are (keeping in mind that "C" is really G):
• The Ab/G#, G, and F#/Gb below "middle C" (the octave below the tuning C),• The Eb/D#, D, and Db/C# above "middle C",• The Ab between "middle C" and "tuning C", and, most problematically,• The "high Ab" above tuning C. (Sort of. More on this below.)
As you rightly pointed out, it's easier to play "high" on these horns because you're buzzing your lips a minor third less fast to produce a particular note than you'd have to buzz on a concert pitch instrument.
So, due to the missing low notes and the relative ease of playing high, most (traditional) drum corps arrangers choose keys that result in most players (especially leads) playing consistently higher notes than they probably would in a marching band.
Furthermore, note that, starting with the low E, the entire chromatic scale is available all the way up, with the exception of the low Ab and the high Ab.
There wasn't much that the arranger could do about the low Ab...but, as any trombonist can tell you, you can ALMOST play a high Ab in tune in that weird partial below high C. The high A can be played with second valve and the high Ab with first valve, but they're unacceptably flat.
And THAT is why the G bugle has the odd first valve tuning slide with the spring that pushes it out. It can be used to fine tune other notes, but its REAL purpose is so the lead soprano players can play the high Ab in tune without having to lip it sharp.
I started with a single valve bugle, moved on to the two valve version and then onto the three valver; all "G' horns. The Drum Corps International "bugle" bands play B flat instruments. They have added everything one can purchase at a well-stocked musical instrument shop. We call old-timers call these ersatz organizations, brass bands. What an exceptional series about bugles. Thank you and well done, Trent Hamilton
These sorts of instruments were used from the late 70s to the early 90s. Before then, DCI (Drum Corps International, the biggest competition circuit for drum corps) allowed only instruments with one rotary valve and one horizontal piston. After that, they allowed three-valve instruments, though they still had to be in G. In 2000, they legalized brass instruments in any key with any number of valves so long as they were bell-front instruments and not trombones or sousaphones. In 2014, they legalized all brass instruments, though so far no corps has had a section spend the whole show on anything other than trumpets, flugelhorns, mellophones, baritones, euphoniums, and tubas. As of 2016, most corps use Bb instruments (except for mellophones, which are in F), and of the ones that still use G (only one of which is active in DCI- all the others are in smaller circuits), all of them use 3-valve instruments except the US Marines drum corps, which has its 2-valve instruments custom-made for them. ruclips.net/video/s4b3q0l6Hk8/видео.html is a segment from Phantom Regiment's 1989 show, using 2-valve G instruments, and ruclips.net/video/NvHfn6NlO7M/видео.html is a video taken by a trumpet player in the 2016 DCI champion corps, the Bluecoats, using a Bb trumpet for most of the show and a Bb flugelhorn for a solo. The footage comes from the encore performance the corps gave after they won and from their rehearsal earlier that day.
Bone-Tone Lord Fun fact: the Oregon Crusaders I believe are fielding a full line of sousaphones for the 2017 season instead of the regular contra bass bugles.
Well blue devils have used trombones in 2017 so now times have changed
Steven's railway and 16 99.65 still gives me chills
What dci corp still uses g bugles?
Nathan A. I think none due to rules. The UMSC corps do. They do their show on finals.
Trent....you should review other G brass....mellophone, flugelhorn, French horn, baritone, euphonium, and contrabass (if doing a contra, find a King K-90....best 2 valved contra ever made)
sam signorelli he did The mellophone
Of all the 2 piston bugles on Earth, he had to pick the Dynasty. Of the 2v's Benge made a nice one called "American Heritage" and as Sam points out King (with Zig Kanstul doing the design) made the best of everything on the field, and yeah, the "contrabass" is/was a fine horn, made even better with the 3rd valve that gave corps some serious bass sounds. Absolute worst part - mid 70s, you could only replace one voice at a time, which caused '78 Bayonne to buy a whole set of horns including 1 valve mellos and contras. What a mess. Could've had the entire set for about the same price, except for the wisdom of DCI. You thought they only started making bad decisions in the 21st Century? Nah....
They always made bad decisions. But as time went on they got badder. It is hard to put one's finger on that exact spot in time where DCI stopped being drum corps and became marching band. But it is there somewhere between now and then.
Awesome. I marched DCI Bluecoats and these were our horns on the soprano line, 2-valve nickle bugle.
Trent deserves to have so many more subscribers. He puts so much work and money into his videos. But now that I'm finished, great work. Keep up the wonderful content.
A good example of the 2 valve piston and rotary valve is 1975 Madison Scouts MacArthur Park solo.
In the Drum Corps world the move away from simple valveless bugles began after one corps monkeyed with the tuning slide to use it as a trombone slide, to add up to one step, and went into a contest playing diatonic melodies that no one else could play.
Bugles in a large, well trained hornline had such a dark and punchy sound. Very loud sounding for the number of players.
I played the soprano bugle in High School and it was equipped with one valve and a rotor. We were the only public school drum and bugle corps marching band at the time which placed us in a category of our own which gave us the advantage of always winning in competitions.:). The truth is that we needed All the help we could get. It was a very small school and the only way to get enough people to form a band, we had to recruit 5th & 6th graders from the nearby elementary school. So you can imagine all the situations that arises when you have a group of 11 year olds traveling with 19 year olds. It was a great experience and our band director took the entire band to London England in 1976 to play for the Queen in the Celebration of America's 200th birthday. I was already in the US Army by then and missed the trip but alot of my friends went. I'm trying to find a bugle like the one I played back then, and that is how I came upon your site. Thanks for sharing.
I used to use one of these when I first joined the Columbus Saints.
Now I have a 3 valve Dynasty.
The reason for the design of the 1st valve slide was because 1st valve notes -- particularly the D at the top of the staff -- were inherently flat. Play that note and push the slide in to tune it up.
There were only 4 notes a 2 valve horn could not play...C#, D, Eb, and Ab below/in the staff. Above the staff Ab was 1st valve and the 1st slid all the way in.
It wasn't really much of an issue for the upper and middle brass, but it WAS for the lowers. You just picked a key to write in that minimized those note and/or gave them to the tympani in the pit if they REALLY needed to be there.
I played in that era (1984 Blue Devils), and the hardest thing about playing a sop was remembering it was the same fingerings as my Bb trumpet, but a minor 3rd lower.
As for significant music...look up Star of Indiana....particularly 1990 and 1991....Walton, and Respighi...or 1993, Barber and Bartok....all on 2 valves (they never went three valves even after they were legalIzed in 1990).
Look up ANY drum corps from the 1980s and you'll see that the lack of the 3rd valve was not much of an issue to musical selection.
What Sam wrote, all of it.
84! Now that was a hornline
Thank you...the greatest collection of brass studs and studettes it was ever my honor to have performed with.
I still have my old Dynasty 2 valve. I managed to pick it up for $50 when the Marauders switched to 3 valve sops.
I had to wait over 2 minutes to hear you call the second value "ridiculous" but boy what a relief!
Nice job, Trent! I've been affiliated with America-land Drum & Bugle Corps since 1958, plaing Soprano, French Horn, Mellophone, Flugel-bugle, and others. We started out with just a single valve. We played halftones by using an emory cloth on the tuning dlide and oiling it up (halftones were always sharp, but you learned to "lip it up"!). Later a ring on the tuning slide, then a rotor: two handed play was challenging but fun. I started arranging in 1966, and being a horn instructor about the same time. Wanted to add Bb instruments and revive the "C" basses back in the late '60's, but rules prevented it. Now, all Drum Corps use Bb instrumentation. Have you ever heard or watched them lately? Carolina Crown! Did you know that bugles were originally made in the key of G because that key carried the furthest on the battlefield! I really enjoy your sense of humor, Trent ... thank you!
Can't wait for someone to invent the three valve bugle - oh hang on a minute...
The 1st valve slide is spring loaded out on a 2 piston bugle for one note only: the written G#/Ab above the staff, which would be concert D#/Eb. This note is the 7th harmonic on the 1st valve (F harmonic series) of the bugle. The 7th harmonic is usually a quarter step flat on all instruments, which is why it is fingered differently. On any standard treble clef transposition, your written G#/Ab above the staff is fingered 2+3, with 1 as an "alternate" that is to be avoided. In order to allow the bugle to be fully chromatic from C in the staff to C above the staff, the 1st valve alternate fingering for G# must be employed. Dynasty, Olds, and King all standardized on having a purposely short 1st valve slide that is spring loaded, and therefore tuned, in the "out" position. You then push it in for the 7th harmonic to assist in bringing the note closer in tune. Getzen made a small run of 2 piston bugles in the mid 1980s, about 1,800 horns total, and employed an even stranger design on their sopranos. The getzen 1st valve slide was built at the correct mathematical length in the standard flow design (one inner slide and one outer slide on the horn and the same on the valve crook), however, the Getzen inner slides were built excessively long, allowing the 1st slide to be pulled out nearly a half step before coming off. This allowed Getzen horns to approximate a 2+3 valve combination using 1+2, and giving Getzen horns a competitive advantage since they could not only play the written top G#, but also the G# in the staff, the Eb at the bottom of the staff, and the low G# below the staff.
I loved the 2 valve bugles. I played baritone bugle for Evansville Imperial Guard in 1984, 1985. Great times. :)
A bugle with valves? Doesn't that make it a flugelhorn?
Ah man…..I played one of these back in drum corps in 99! Brings back some good memories!!
The U.S Marine Corps "Commandants Own" still uses all two valve G bugles and sound fantastic!
I read they were special ordered because that's what the Commandant wanted. And yes, they sound fantastic.
Wow, that is really interesting. Nice horn, great info. Thank you, Trent.
The two valve bugles are played all around the Philippines. All voices: soprano, tenor, baritone and basses are played. All players play by ear which is common in the Philippines. Are the bugles cheaper than their three valve instrumental counterparts?
Douglas Jue Who is producing the horns?
Trent- Only a professional trombonist like you can make a 2 Valve Soprano Bugle sound good! thanks for proving that.
I beg to differ...any of the top 80s corps could sound great on those (or Star of Indiana at any time)
My band director marched in DCA with the Derby City Knights about 16 years ago. He still has it and I found it odd when I held it
I LOVE DCI AND IM MARCHING IT SOON PLAYING THE MELLOPHONE
Which corps are you marching with? I'm marching trumpet in Legends DBC
Shuffler Dood Im marching The Hurricanes DBC. we compete in DCA. I plan on doing dci sometime soon
Another good video Trent happy 3:40 in nz
You are a much better trumpet player than I ever was, but my junior high trumpet playing band leader told us not to put our little finger in the hook, and to play the valves with our fingertips. He said by leaving our little finger out of the hook we had more dexterity. We also stuck our right thumb in between the first and second valves to steady the instrument.
For six weeks in 1969, I played the one valve soprano bugle at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio Texas. We , the drum and bugle Corps , for the 3700 basic training group , played for the parades that the basic trainees marched in . Once we flew down to Harlingen Texas in a c-119 flying boxcar , and played for them . Also we played for Armed Forces Day in the parade in downtown San Antonio . I played the trumpet in high school... A 1965 Bach Stradivarius as a matter of fact... So the transition to the bugle was simple, although I do not remember the fingering, or better described, the thumbing.
amazing what 80’s corps could get out of these horns
Yup, my olds memdez both small tuning slides are out to adjust.
Ive been in drum corps since 1970. And i can tell you the old g horns regardless of the valve structure is much better for outdoor playing. The b flat horns just dont have the brightness and sonority in outdoor playing as the g horns.
the way he pushes the valves down makes me want to cry
Me too. And puffing out his cheeks. Tsk Tsk.
Phildog1 Agreed.
As long as he's not in a uniform required setting it really doesn't make a difference, as long as it sounds fine. Some of the best trumpeters ever, looked horrible while playing. Puffing cheeks, clambering valves.
That Contra Guy Still really bad practice
Geez let people play how they want to play
3:57
A lot of mellophones have those on the first valve.
The purpose of the horizontal valve on that single-valve bugle was to remain hidden. When you’re several feet (or meters) away in the press box, it’s hard to see that singular valve when it’s horizontal.
The first valve slide is sharped so you adjust it to be in tune with the spring. For 1 and 2 combinations you pull it out. The reason you can push it in is to play an e flat concert on the seventh partial, normally an unusable and unnecessary partial on a valve instrument. This makes the horn chromatic from the lower e concert.
3:26 try tuba 4th valve tuning slide its a nightmare
that bugle, by all means, is awesome
When I was in marching band in high school our band director showed us a film showcasing the Bridgemen drum & bugle corps who had a talented soprano bugle player. The trumpet players in my band tried in vain to imitate him.
Can you do another video of the French horn please
i don't even play a brasswind instrument but i still watch your videos. thanks you!
You should learn to play one, they're pretty fantastic. I'm a trumpet player myself
The spring loaded first valve trigger was to sharpen your (assuming you are a trumpet player) G#. Worked rather well. So, from E on the staff on up the horn was chromatic. Some of the older piston rotor horns even had a way to sharpen the G# to make them play in tune. Back when I played, the older piston rotor horns were being phased out and the two valve horns were standard. You are showing the Getzen horns. The Olds horns were very good as well if not better. King made a very very good line of the two valve horns as well. The sharpened first valve was standard on horns until the three valve horn took over. (1990?)The soprano played like a very bore, very very loud cornet. As far as I know, all of the music was transposed. Some corps had the baritones and contras reading treble, like trumpets, and some had them reading (transposed) bass. The all G pitched lines had a particular sound. A sound that a lot of us miss.........
I played a one piston one rotor contra... if you think the pitch slide on the soprano is wild, you should try using the one on the old contras... slide distance is about 6 inches (15cm) and since it was on your rotor hand, using it made the horn VERY unstable. I've still got the old beast, it's a wallhanger now.
Any idea where I can get a 2 piston valve G contrabass in good shape?
Carolina Crown is the best I love their brass line I play Euphonium I hope I might make it one day.
The reasoning behind the early horizontal valves (played with the thumb), and the rotary valve, was to keep the instrument 'looking like' a bugle - at least from a distance.
I would like to see a two valve or valve rotor contra bass bugle demonstration, if possible. Equivalent to the tuba in a marching band.
The sharp tuning and long tuning slide is by design... being an outdoor competition they have to handle cold temperatures in the fall and scotching hot temperatures in the summer. Tuning varies wildly under those conditions.
Hell...tuning varied wildly during a single day at Mars...any BD alum will tell you that!
My first brass instrument was a drum corps bugle. My folks could not afford a trumpet/cornet at first so this was a transitional instrument. I learned a lot at first. When I got a real cornet and joined high school band I discovered these bugles had intonation problems. I don’t know if that was the quality of construction or what but you could never transpose with a key of G bugle to play any band or orchestral music. They were always horribly off pitch. I don’t know if the engineering is any better today.
I’m still grateful for having started music in a drum and bugle corps. And I always liked the “esprit de corps” much more than marching band.
My daughter marched with a modern DCI corps this summer, the blue stars. Modern trumpets. She is also helping out an "all age" DCA corps to finish off their season. This corps (Cincinnati Tradition) is still marching bugles. In their case, 3 Valve, G Bugles.
You'll find a good number of DCA corps still using the 3 value bugles and most alumni corps will use them to keep tradition and history as they present how they play and perform in the early days of drum corps since it was DCA started the modern style of marching and competition of drum corps in the states we see today in 1964 coming from VFW. DCI started to use trumpets and some of the top competitive DCA corps soon followed for the same reasons. But I missed that dark, organic sound of G bugles from those corps as I sure do miss mine.
My bach 42b strad (the inside loop version) has a longer tuning slide for the f attachment, if you look at one the whole stretch from the trigger to the tuning slide is a tuning slide. Sorry if O just confuzled you
I have the same one but its open wrap, i know what you mean
+JackSLR783 3 Ya I meant closed wrap, I got back from scout camp yesterday. I am extremely tired and can't think straight.
chiwea123 nice
Ya lucky bastards with your expensive trumpets
Caleb Brosnac Trombones :D
Played with Mariners in the late 1960'2 into 1970. Single valve with a rotor. Way cool - and fun...
What type of mouthpiece do you use for the baritone single valve bugle?
I was in the Anaheim Kingsmen drum & bugle corps in 1977-78. 1977 was the first year DCI rules congress allowed for 2 piston soprano bugles. We played on the Kanstul made "American Heritage" sopranos which were originally attached to Benge.(Kanstul was making Benge horns at the time) Then in 1978 DCI allowed for the baritones to go 2 piston and we had a couple guys in the hornline playing those. The whole idea was to remain in G for being the official Boy Scout and US Military bugle key, starting with no valves, then the 1 piston then adding a rotary on the opposite side to be the "2nd valve" then again switching to the 2 piston in 1977. Into the 80's DCI finally allowed for THREE piston bugles but they had to all still be in G pitch. The sopranos are not quite the same bore as trumpets as they're usually BIGGER in size. Average trumpets are around a .460 bore size whereas the 2 piston G sopranos we played were a whopping .468. Add to that being pitched in G it took a lot of air out of you. Some people think this bigger bore made them louder but really it's the heavier brass material they're made from, the larger bell throat(can't hold a harmon mute or cup without adding cork) and the finishes being heavy chrome/nickel. I play tested a couple of 3 valve DEG G sopranos, one being silver finish the other in chrome/nickel. Exactly the same horns but the chrome/nickel one was louder.
Please listen to the Blue Devils from the 80's!!!! ,and will hear what this horn can do!!!!
Being an 80s Blue Devil....thank you!
I don't get it. at what point do they just swap out the drum and bugle corps' bugles with trumpets. I thought the point of bugle music was to sound like a bugle.
Up until 2000, the rules specified ALL brass was to be bell front (like a trumpet), 0 to 3 valves (2 valve uprights like the sop in this vid starting in 77 or 78....3 valves starting in 90), and in the key of G. Trumpets are in a multitude of keys....but nothing in G until 3 valves were legalized for 1990. DCI went any-key brass in 2000. Modern DCI corps are all on Bb horns for all brass except mellophones (which are in F....easier to tune).
G bugles a a minor third below Bb horns, thus they have a different sound.
No, and no. The note the harmonic series is based upon for both euphoniums and contras in a marching band (and now in most corps as well) is B♭. Due to an archaic naming system, contrabass instruments traditionally get the letter doubled, so you have F and E♭ tubas, which are considered "bass tubas". Contrabass tubas are those in CC and BB♭. The doubled letter means "an octave down", not "double flat".
Euphoniums are at the same pitch as tenor trombones, and (confusingly) so are baritones which in theory should be somewhere between tenors and basses. -- but they're not, baritones are tenor-pitched instruments, and E♭ tenor horns are alto-pitched instruments (and they are appropriately called alto horns in North America).
The names of the pitch classes have changed over time. It used to be that "bass" meant "one octave down from the normal size", like bass clarinet, bass oboe, bass flute. However, in modern parlance, the word "tenor" now describes this role. Tenor saxophone and bass clarinet play at the same pitch, and bass saxophone is _two_ octaves below the soprano!
Normally bass instruments are only HALF an octave below the tenor instruments, "baritone" is not a specific pitch class, and the octave below tenor is called contrabass. Saxophones violate all three of these naming conventions: Sopranino is in E♭ above concert pitch, soprano is B♭ and occasionally C, alto is E♭ below that, tenor is B♭ or occasionally C, baritone is E♭ below that or in rare historical cases in F, and bass saxophones are in B♭ and again very rarely in C -- the first saxophone ever exhibited to the public was a bass in C. Also there are very rare "mezzo-soprano" saxophones in between the alto and the soprano, pitched in either F (Conn) or G (Jessen).
Flutes, on the other hand, have the normal concert flute in C. Going upward from there you have the soprano flute in E♭, treble flute in G , then the piccolo in C an octave above. Going downward you have the tenor flute in B♭, a mere whole tone below the concert flute (a totally inappropriate use of the word "tenor"), alto flute in G (in flute-world, alto is lower than tenor), then bass in C an octave below.
Oboes have their own nomenclature as well. The instrument smaller than the standard oboe is called a musette and is pitched in F. The instrument larger (and also pitched in F) is the English horn. Note that while they are the sopranino and alto members of the family, those words do not appear in their names. An octave below the standard oboe is bass oboe, pitched in C. This is the same pitch as a _tenor_ saxophone in C.
When discussing these old drum corps bugles which were required to be in a single key (in practice, always G), it gets even worse. Soprano and alto are _the same pitch_, but altos are constructed with a darker tone. Baritone and euphonium are the same pitch, and again the euphonium has the darker tone. No instrument is called a tenor. Contras are two octaves below the sopranos (and altos).
tl;dr: The names of instrument sizes are inconsistent across instrument families, and you just have to memorize them.
I have one my grandfather used marching corps. Really fun to play.
drum and bugle core in america with the exception of military drum and bugle cores all use normal trumpets contras trombone and all of normal brass instruments but military drum and bugle cores all use the the old bugles
Correction: They use front bell baritones. Only in some occasions they use trombones.
nRGeeY they are called flugabones
Prior to 2000, every American drum and bugle corps used the g bugle instruments. Kanstul still sells the three valve models of each bugle that were common in the 1990s
Hey had bugles with slides and then the one valve
Many people who played them still prefer them over the 3 piston version.
Anyone who's ever marched with both prefers the 2 valve, it's amazing how much lighter it is.
I'm actually collecting a small hornline of two Piston Bugles. They will be used for the Sky Ryder Alumni Sound Sport Team 2017.
OOoooooo...to see Sky in competition again in ANY form.....nice! They had a pretty good three show run in 86-88 (88...my all time fave 12th place show)
yess they have a darker, more full tonal quality not just that they are a minor 3rd lower pitched than Bb horns, but have slightly larger bore and bell diams than their Bb contemporaries.
I had the joy of playing several 2 valve bugles in Drum & Bugle core competition back in the 80's. eventually, they just went to Bb and F band instruments because of poor resale value of the G bugles. before 2 valve, they had used valve and rotor, very odd
I was in D&BC in the 80s when it was cool. Had my G soprano as they called it. Good days
Just for the record. G/D G/F bugles could out dynamic a Bb line any day . Just listen to the proof on any recording. Just be aware that The brass lines size are also to be taken into consideration . Some one said " you feel the bugles you hear the trumpets " Well said . That also goes for the players feedback of the instrument in the same manner. They dont call it Drum and Bugle Corps for a reason anymore . It isnt . It was once unique, different ,special, now its just another band and dance troupe on a grass field instead of a stage . Progress? HO HUM
So, the scale on the one valve bugle is your upper octave G scale (natural pitch; would be written C if transposed). By playing: 0 1 0 1 0 1 1 0 (1=valve depressed). If you're a trumpet player you can try it using 1 and 3
is there another bugle just like it but in the key of D ?
Does the 1 valve soprano bugle have a gold inlayed bell?
It allows you to use the 7th partial
correct me if I'm wrong but is that mouthpiece a 7c megitone
Actually the main tuning slide on the bugle probably (not 100%) is not the longest, the Cimbasso especially in F comes with a very very long main tuning slide allowing for the instrument to be put in E/ sharp Eb
The valve is out naturally because G bugles are ridiculous to tune to begin with, and adding the first valve slide ability to sharpen a note is helpful in the higher range. Having marched with a drum corps that uses G bugles, I learned that the sops become significantly flat on certain notes in the upper range
He forgot to mention that the single valves on both the G-D soprano and the G-D tenor-baritone are operated by the player's right thumb. The piston-rotor bugles had the horizontal thumb valve plus a rotary valve in the tuning slide operated by the player's left forefinger, so it took both hands to operate the valves. The pitches were first G-D-F. Later on they were changed to be G-F-F#, same interval as the first two valves of a three-valve brass instrument, even though they were still piston-rotor.
Oddball sprung 1st valve slide is like that to tune 7th partials, like written G#'s.
Something I've always wanted a concrete answer to; is it _actually_ louder than a Bb trumpet?
The loudness of an instrument depends how much air you put through it.
A better question I suppose would be does the construction of the instrument allow you to play louder than its Bb counterparts?
A Bit, not sure why or how, but much like the increased range. there is a bit of increased volume. When I marched one of our Techs claimed it was the thrill of playing with the better range and in front of thousands that simply caused you to play louder. But, I've heard a couple of guys who repair them say there is something in their construction that projects sound better. Also, the increased range is no joke, I gained just over half an octave in range on a G Bugle from a Bb Trumpet.
G bugles had a bigger, conic, bore so they tended to project better. While you would "hear" a trumpet, you would "feel" a bugle. Also because they are pitched a minor third lower than Bb horns, they have a different overtones.
@@gentrywalker Speaking for a Bugle / Trumpet dynamic difference. G/F Keyed Bugles can blow the doors off Bb Trumpets .Any Day ! Intonation is another issue though . The bore difference is probably one of the main construction factors and more resistance by the valve block and additional brass. Their also may be a difference in the gauge of the brass . The weight difference may have a bearing on projection and brilliance . Some one said you "feel the bugle you hear the trumpet " Well put. The bugle has more of a ring in your hands,vibration, the trumpet less so. A decibel test/ tone test would be fun
but at this point, besides the name, why not just get a trumpet? Does the bugle perform any differently in tone or pitch, given it shares most of the same characteristics?
g bugles are generally louder. The corps originated from the military and were very concerned about keeping tradition. However in 2000 DCI voted to use any keyed marching brass instrument, and in 2014 voted to include all brass instruments. :)
The bugle is mostly tradition... however it does have have a few differences from a trumpet. I'm in a drum corps that plays 3 valve G bugles, and the big difference is tone. bugles have a very bright tone and can be shrill at times, so corps that use them spend their time learning to produce a more favorable darker tone. the baritone and contrabass and mellophone bugles have very few differences from their Bb/F counterparts, pitch being one of them, but the soprano and trumpet have a few more. the soprano bugle has a bell flare that has a very open throat, (compared to a trumpet which is very narrow and then flares quickly at the end) and gives it a bright sound that can carry further than a trumpet. which is why 15 bugles (with the sacrifice of tone) could probably out play 24 Bb trumpets (a standard DCI trumpet section) It also went down to logistics, early DCI corps could teach kids to play a two valved horn faster, and two valved horns were less expensive. Nowadays corps can easily resell their Bb horns to anyone with ease, so they can afford to start the season with factory fresh instruments every year! before corps would have to save all their money and wait about 5-7 years before replacing their bugles, since the only people interested in buying bugle were other drum corps (usually schools don't want it unless its Bb) I hope this shows some differences between the two types of horns, and why Corps play Bb horns now!
Trent dressed up nice for this occasion
The baritones played those notes that you cannot play on a trumpet as well as it isn't easier to play high notes they are just named higher because of the key of the instrument
2-valve bugles are designed sharp because you are playing these instruments outdoors during the summer months. As everyone knows, brass instruments go flat in heat, so you can slide the main tuning slide in as the day goes by. As you get more tired; you are gripping the instrument tighter and the first valve slide compresses pulling it in tune.
Drum corp brass players keep charts of temperature and humidity and can usually move the slides to compensate really fast. Heck, the Concord Blue Devils worked with a manufacturer that now inscribes markers on the main tuning slide to help.
When I participated back in the day, we all felt sorry for those playing Dynasty instruments, but even the best Kanstul bugles were built sharp.
Actually, brass instruments go sharper the warmer they get (I presume because the airflow is faster). I'm always pulling my slide out in summer and pushing it in in winter. String instruments are the opposite - they go flat as the metal strings expand.
I played BBb tuba, Contrabass in G, String bass, and piano. The King contras were excellent to play, easy to keep in tune, and did not sound like a brontosaurus farting. That was so much the case back in the 1960's-1970's with drum corps contras.
However, if you are serious about tuba, you play a Mirafone. The finest tuba I ever played.
The K-90 was the best G 2-valved contra ever.
I miss playing these great instruments. I wish I could get one from my days marching the Star of Indiana.
What horn and what years?
I miss G bugles too. I still have my old 2 valve from my days in the Marauders.
@@samsignorelli Lead Soprano 1988.
@@jamess8566 Saw a guy at a marching band competition two yrs back that had one from Star, but wouldn't sell it to me. I told him that could have been my horn.
@@stumpmtsr Porgy and Bess....not a bad show. Saw you guys in SoCal...ran into Bill Cook inteh bathroom (kinda hard to miss him with that top hat!).
I was a sop in BD in 84 (full beard and glasses with the long camera pass about the 1 min mark in the vid).
So when does a bugle stop being a bugle and start being a trumpet?
When another valve is added, and it's changed to the key of C or Bb. There's also some changes to the overall shape of the horn, specifically the bell.
and the tubing. Bugles are conic bore. Trumpets are straight bore.
Did drum and bugle corps ever make it to Australia or NZ? Or is it mainly brass bands down there?
The modern "drum corps" activity has fallen on hard times in the US - it has pretty much become an indoor theater/dance activity now where brass playing takes a back seat to interp. dance - there are some nice moments of brass ensemble playing - but for the most part, the activity now relies on electronics and visual elements. With the c19 crisis, the 2020 season has been canceled and many of the organizations will probably not survive.
If anyone is interested in what a horn like this would have sounded like back in the olden days, search out a video from any of the drum corps from the 80s (ie, 1988 Madison Scouts or 1986 Blue Devils or 1989 Santa Clara Vanguard) - the activity transitioned into a 3 valve g bugle in the early 90s and then to regular Bb trumpets in the late 90s -
But, can you put a valve guard on it... 🤔
They are slowly inventing the trumpet again
It feels great that he talked about dci marching bands like especially since I'm trying to join carolina crown
thats cool, can you play any song this as you can a 3 valve?
Unless it has a note that requires a 3rd valve, yes....but those notes are C# and D below the staff, and Eb and Ab in the staff.
Above the staff there are alternate fingerings....high Ab is 1st valve and push that 1st valve tuning slide all the way in.
It was rarely a problem for the upper and mid brass....more of an issue for the lowers.
you should try creating you own brass instrument
I've often thought about it, but I'm afraid I don't have that kind of skill.
Just start with something, that is what I do on like minecraft or even building with Legos and then I add on and make it better. Trust me.. I don't have the skills either but I would try and learn......
Tyler Vogel do you have any idea how creating an instrument works
He could maybe design one buts that's about it
Yes I do. It starts out as flat sheets of metal that get shaped, bent, welded, and much more to result in the piping and tubing of the instrument. All you really need are the right molds to hammer the the shape of the bell and tubes. Brass sheets, welding skills, and pretty much you can create your own horns.
And he just needs the right materials and knowledge to not only design the instrument but to also to be able to build the instrument
I miss the sound of G bugles. I’m not here to argue about which is better or worse, obviously the instruments used in drum corps today are far better quality and easier to control, but the sound is undoubtedly different. I don’t know how to put it into words. When a corp would hit you in the face with a big impact moment in the G bugle days the sound seemed to have “sizzle”. Totally unique to drum corps. It’s what made it different.
You also missed the valve rotor before the 2 valve
He said that in the video. Good job trying to play Internet gotcha.
What is the rainbow horn on your bench called?
The big silver one in the middle? If so, that's his solo horn.