My wife and I have carried, both on and off-duty, one or another model of that design for decades. We both, working for the same agency, were trained to carry with the safety/decocker on thumbing it off during the draw stroke. Several years ago we took a class together and the instructor remarked several times on us drawing the same way together. Even with the removing of the safety on the draw stroke, we were as fast, if not faster, on target than those with the safety disengaged for the draw. During the initial draw stroke, the right thumb smoothly slides to the full grip and at the same time thumbs the safety off and then we complete the draw. Neither she nor I have found this to hinder or slow the draw. This is a strong positive move that does not lend itself to fumbling at all. It has never failed us and we do so to this day with our 3913s. Being Deputy Sheriff's in one man cars and way out in the County, it was comforting to know that my gun was a bit more secure but readily available to hand. For me it has served me well through 39-2, 59, 459, 3913 and 5906 S&Ws. For her the 3913 and the Beretta 92F. BTW: I am a huge fan of the 3rd gen Smith and often watch your video with that outstanding 39-2 in nickel.
Thank you! I love my traditional S&W auto-loaders! Also, as your post proves once again, the key is always training and experience. There really is no substitute for that. You have obviously trained yourself, as has your wife, to be extremely proficient at disengaging your pistol’s safety. Good job! Also, happy Thanksgiving!
I don't mind a safety, it has a purpose. I find it funny when the tacticool crowd can do all things like clear jams and reload on the move in a gunfight, but a safety is on, NO GOOD. Impossible to flick it off I guess. The best use of a safety is for the guy who drops his gun and his automatic response to grab it before it hits the ground.
Good points but the argument is that fine motor skill are compromised by the adrenalin dump in a fight for your life nd the practice of flicking off a safety is lost. Including that of a 1911 or BHP cocked 'n locked in condition 1. Tacticool is just that, not gunfighting.
I get where they are coming from with the safety. Especially with some designs where it's possible to accidentally engage the safety without you intending to. Being able to clear jams in a gunfight is not a reason to choose a gun that jams more, in that same sense being able to flick the safety is not a reason to use a gun with safety. The safety should be the reason to pick a gun with manual safety. But if you don't trust yourself with the safety, just don't want to deal with it and/or trust the other safety features on the gun enough to prevent an ND, then by all means, use a gun without one.
I would really love to see a presentation on JHP grain selection, 115 vs 124 vs 147 out of modern defensive micro 9mm pistols with barrels under 3.5 inch’s
And if you need some just for the test, luckygunner has boxes of HST 50rd for $42 atm in every weight. It’s not a great price but if you aren’t trying to stack it deep and just need a box of each for testing it is an option.
Interesting subject; as a guy who carried Ruger and Smith DA revolvers for many YEARS (and traditional DA/SA Sig’s, CZ’s, and H&K USP’s for more years) I am not wedded to manual safeties, but I unfailingly use them when they’re incorporated in the design.
@@daveweed2765 The first autoloaders I ever owned or carried regularly were 1911A1’s (my active duty began in the late-1960’s, long before the M9 was the standard sidearm), so disengaging a thumb safety is entirely normal for me.
@@roykiefer7713 Exactly. My first duty station was in Pusan Korea in 1990. I was on the M60 team just in case and we were issued 1911s along with our... get this, M16 A1s. So far south we actually had older weapons but damn, that was cool. Triangular forgeries and all. In basic and AIT we had the A2s. I think only two people were issued AS. So... a few had to qualify 4 times. M16s, M1911s and familiarized on the few M9s, M60 and M2s just in case. Korea was cool because there were bunkers at the front and back gates and my position was at the front gate. Personal preference though is the M9 over the M1911s. The higher mag capacity and decoder and single/double action just seals the deal. But 1911s are just plain "sexy" and fun to fire. But it bugs the crap out of me to carry with the hammer cooked. But I trust that more than internal strikers though.
@@daveweed2765 Thanks for this nice reply. Like you, my “personal preference” for “service sized” autoloaders these days is a 9mm, traditional DA/SA, hammer fired, all steel, large capacity, semiautomatic . . . but the CZ 75B, not the Beretta M9/92. However,, 1911A1’s continue to warm my heart, even though I understand their capacity limitations.
Great topic...Can't wait to hear your take and the comments. I think the last pistol I had with a safety was S&W 5906. If I recall correctly, the "safety" lever also acted as a decocker if the hammer was back.
I let my original 5904 get away after using it as a duty weapon. Three decades later I finally replaced it with the one in the video. This one is never leaving my collection again! All this to tell you, I understand exactly what you’re saying. Happy Thanksgiving!
My SO starting issuing these complete with new holster and mags. Free gun? Why not? Had it for awhile and found it 100% reliable and a really good gun! However, found it to be too heavy for a 9mm and gave it back and went back to my Sig 226. If they had offered the lighter weight 5904, I would have carried it forever!
Either method is correct. Just be sure to train for the method you go with until it becomes second nature to you. I really appreciate your no nonsense no judgement style. Thank you Mr. Funk👍🏼
Back in the late 80s, early in my police career, l read an article by Massad Ayoob In it, he listed the benefits of safety on carry, especially for police officers , citing the benefits you named, and others. I’d just switched from a .357 revolver to a Glock 17. I liked the weight and capacity, but not the feel. Swapped it shortly for a S&W 645. Since the article resonated with me, I trained myself to carry safety on. Except for some occasional periods of being forced to carry something different, I’ve stayed with the DA/SA system ever since for duty carry, and most off duty. For rural expeditions I still go with .357 revolvers. Safety comes off automatically as part of my draw. Even as holster security improved, I stayed with the system. It doesn’t hamper my 1st shot time much. I’m much more likely to have to fight for my gun than have to depend on that part of a second lost in my draw. As a parting thought, appendix carry has no appeal to me, safety on or off. Cruiser spread has made it uncomfortable, and there’s too many tender bits up front for my peace of mind.
I agree with you. When I carry my 365, I have it with a safety. I appendix carry and am not to comfortable with a striker fire without a safety in that position. It requires a lot of dry fire to remember to sweep off the safety on a draw.
Generally I carried safety off on DA/SA pistols, the exception was my H&K USP / USP Compact where the safety lever is on the frame not the slide and was naturally disengaged as part of the grip/draw.
Since I'm the one carrying, I like to idiot proof whenever possible so I kinda like safeties. I do practice swiping down on the safety every single time I present a pistol so even when I'm handling my glocks, I swipe down on their ghost safety, every time, just so I never forget to. Thanks for the vid Chief Happy Thanksgiving.
As a LEO with over 25 years, I personally prefer utilizing the external safety, if equipped, on personal carry due to the characteristics of many off duty holsters which are generally closer to the body where an accidental trigger engagement may present itself, at least more than an external duty holster which are generally level 2 or more with respects to retention. My duty sidearms never had the external safeties. I would suggest that anyone who does carry a firearm with an external safety engaged, it would benefit them to practice with that configuration.
A Great Topic HR !...My Opinion as a retired LE firearms instructor who transitioned my dept. from 357 revolvers to the first issue of the Beretta 92F.....The "decocker" was taught and treated as just that...decock, flick the lever back up and holster....Remember that originally Beretta did not offer a return spring on the decocker.....Even after years of in-service training I still saw about 10% of the experienced officers would have an initial failure to fire on a stage of the requal course.....due to them having decocked and holstered without flipping the lever back up to fire position. Civilians who use an engaged safety without stress fire training are more likely to be in trouble with this. My normal carry weapon is a 1911 cocked and locked.....but like you, I have had thousands of weapon presentations so my thumb safety is pressed down automatically every time I present the weapon. Even Beretta eventually offered a spring loaded decocking lever for the reasons mentioned.
Thanks for the comment! I really like the Beretta pistols. They are a dream to shoot. The safety is a “slight” detracting from the overall design. If I were going to carry one for a duty weapon, I would prefer the G model to prevent the issue you mentioned. As you said, in experienced hands, the 1911’s safety is no handicap. Thanks for the comment and Merry Christmas!
First, and most importantly, HAPPY THANKSGIVING to all! We live in trying - Covid, the economy, national divisiveness, seeming political ineptness, rampant lawlessness, and so forth - times. HOWEVER, individually and as a society we have SO MUCH for which we should be profoundly grateful. Those who have served overseas will (I suspect) especially understand my feelings. I hope that, in our own ways, we’ll take stock of our blessings, and quietly and privately give thanks tomorrow . . . and, for that matter, every day. Okay, now for today’s video, which I appreciate and which focuses on an important subject. I have carried (and I still do) Smith and Ruger DA revolvers for 50+ years; therefore, the concept of no external safety (or a mechanical decocker) and of a long and not-light trigger pull acting as the firearm’s safety is absolutely natural - and entirely comfortable - to me. IT WORKS, it has been proven to do so for generations, and - factually - any weapon’s “real safety” is located between the operator’s ears, not on the weapon. Of course, even with excellent DA revolvers, some reasonable precautions are necessary (pocket carry in SA mode, for example, would be foolhardy). I own - and truly love - four “traditional DA/SA” autoloaders: 1. Two Sig P Series (a 220 and a 226), which have mechanical decockers. 2. A CZ 75B, which has no decocker, but has a safety that can be activated only when the hammer is cocked. 3. An H&K USP, which has a combination decocker/safety. Since these DA/SA semiautomatics have quite different “safety systems,” I’ll offer my opinion regarding the advantages and disadvantages of each design approach: 1a. Sig’s P Series are outstanding SA/DA semiautomatics, but they do not permit cocked and locked (Condition One) carry. IMHO, this is a deficiency, but no a substantial one. After all, one can fire the first round in DA or can (time and circumstances permitting) cock the hammer for the chambered round (and decock safely with the mechanical device). 2a. I greatly appreciate the CZ 75B’s design and quality. I have a round chambered at all times, but I have the option of firing that first round in DA or in SA; moreover, if I opt for SA, I can activate the thumb safety and carry the 75B in Condition One, as I have long done with my 1911A1’s. The only disadvantage of this system is decocking with a live round chambered. This really is no different than manually decocking a revolver - BUT care is absolutely required (in fact, I place a finger between the hammer and the firing pin, as I firmly hold and lower the hammer). This also WORKS, however, complacency can be dangerous . . . some years ago, I neglected to ensure the hammer spur was clean and dry, and it slipped from my grasp; fortunately that finger between the hammer’s face and the firing pin precluded a negligent discharge. 3a. The superb H&K USP’s system “does it all.” It allows a long, heavy DA first round trigger pull, a “cocked and locked” SA first round trigger pull, and mechanical decocking with a chambered round. To conclude, I’m fine with any of the foregoing design approaches for traditional DA/SA semiautomatics. My preference is for the H&K USP’s design, simply because it “does it all.” But I most frequently carry my CZ 75B, becuase it accommodates “cocked and locked” carry - a clear advantage (imho). Sig’s P Series design obviously is excellent, but I prefer a 1911A1’s Condition One approach, which I can have with the H&K USP and the the CZ 75B, but not with the Sig P220 or P226. But that’s only one fellow’s opinion.
And a fine opinion it is Roy. I also want to echo your sentiments from the beginning of this post. I always tell people that one never realizes how great this country is until you leave it for a while and see how other people live. Happy Thanksgiving!
There is one more safe state that you could have covered: Safety on, no chambered round. My PPK's safety prevents the slide from moving, so a round cannot even be loaded, the gun cannot be cocked, nor double-action fired. I consider this to be a safe way to carry the weapon in a backpack/bag without the use of a rigid holster. As you say, a person unfamiliar with the operation, would not be able to use the weapon, but since I am use to the safety, it doesn't slow me at all.
Speaking purely for myself, I always found the DA/SA safeties of that type a bit difficult to disengage quickly. First, they are counterintuitive. Unlike the SA safety of a 1911 or Hi-Power, the thumb movement required is not a natural component of assuming a shooting grip. This makes it more difficult to learn, and I would argue that even though you CAN train yourself to do it, it probably slows your first shot from the draw, as you then have to bring your thumb back down INTO proper shooting position... perhaps only by one or two tenths of a second, but in a gunfight that's not time I really want to lose. Second, and more importantly, I have relatively small hands for a man, wearing a size 8 (Medium) glove, and I always found I had to shift my grip slightly to give my thumb sufficient purchase to reliably throw the safety lever. This slows me down even further, and I can only imagine how much more it would slow a shooter with even smaller hands, such as a small-statured female. Thus, safety OFF is my preference, and the carry mode I always recommend.
The decocker pistols are great. As you mentioned, you can choose safety on or off. The feature that drew me to those type guns was safely decocking (no chance of fingers slipping from the hammer). Keeping it on safe? As you said, you choose. I prefer the safety off. The gun is ready to fire. Keep your finger off the trigger until ready to fire. Works for me. CZ took choice away on their decocker. Press the lever and you are back to DA and no safety. My Ruger P89 operates just as your Smith. To fire, you must flip the lever. Thesr type guns are or should be, the safest you can get. Great topic by the way.
If it has a safety I always use it before it goes into the holster. If it doesn't have external safeties then be extra careful before you holster it. It is a Military thing.
As a rookie many years ago, we were issued the S&W 5906 9mm. Our firearm instructor trained us not to use the safety/decocker as a safety but only as a decocker. If for instance, you had to fire the weapon and then the scene was safe, you would decock it and then immediately flip it to fire, leaving it ready to use in double action. Made sense to me then and now and that's the way I do it to this day.
Chief, great video and there is one additional benefit for carrying the way you do with that firearm. Its the fastest to first shot. There is a video on the Fieldcraft Survival Channel where two ex SEALs discuss and show the Green Beret guy who runs the channel the way they train and carry with the SIG pistols and specific benefits of that platform over Glock. They train specifically to stage the trigger as the gun has cleared the holster and is pointed towards the target so by the time the gun is aligned with the target it is simple pull at the wall. They argue this is the fastest way to shoot under stress when the decision has been made to shoot. Bill Jordan in "No Second Place Winner" and Jim Cirillo in "Guns, Bullets, and Gunfights" made the same argument with .357 magnum revolvers, arguing that if you staged the trigger this way the length of trigger pull and the wall would work to make the shooter faster. FWIW Ernest Langdon won a whole lot of shooting championships in the early 2000s with this technique, his shop now specializes in customizing Berretta PX4 Storms. This technique is not for me, but I thought I would mention it. I am not sure what I really think of it, there are drawbacks but yes I can see its utility in some situations for those who train with it. Very nice Smith, that series of pistols was IMHO some of the best ever made.
Thanks Alec, I watched that video. While I have no doubt the gentlemen in the video are outstanding warfighters, I think their presentation demonstrates how techniques are driven by the circumstances surrounding an armed encounter. Let’s consider the application of a pistol in military operations. Typically, a pistol is going to be a CQB option serving as back-up to something like an M4 (or other long gun). In this context, the pistol will be employed in circumstances where bad guys are close and must be stopped as quickly as possible. In such a scenario, if the pistol is employed, it will probably have to be fired as quickly as possible. This is similar to a lot of action shooting competitions where time is a major factor and fractions of a second can separate winners from losers. For either of those applications, I think the technique demonstrated in the video you mentioned are effective and prudent. The issue I see is this. For law enforcement officers and armed citizens, the circumstances are different. Training one’s self to draw and immediately fire could lead to an unfortunate end. I have been in many situations where I have drawn my weapon to cover an individual who I believed to be a hostile threat, but I was not legally justified in firing at that person. This is not an uncommon situation for officers who proceed to issue verbal commands to a suspect. An armed citizen can be in similar circumstances. Imagine searching your house at night after hearing a suspicious sound and discovering an intruder. Do you really want to fire at that person immediately? Or do you want to challenge him from a position of cover with your weapon trained on him? The decision to fire, for most of us, is dictated by our adversary’s actions. If my suspect complies with my commands and never presents a lethal threat, I take him into custody without firing a shot. If you challenge your intruder and he turns tail and flees, I would advise against shooting him in the back on his way to the door (different jurisdictions will view that action differently, but morally I wouldn’t want to shoot someone who was not a threat). The armed citizen could face a similar dilemma outside the home. In any event, I think training/conditioning yourself to draw, prep the trigger, and fire instantly when the pistol comes on line with your “bad guy” could lead to unforeseen problems.
As I carry a single action only pistol (1911) I carry with a round in the chamber, hammer cocked, and safety on. Very interesting video! Thank you for delivering amazing content!
I have a Taurus 24/7 Pro C DS in .45acp subcompact that is striker fired DA/SA with a decocker. Because of the grip angle it is actually smaller than my Smith J Frame and has the largest capacity of any .45acp subcompact I’ve ever come across. It actually holds 10 in the flush mag and 12 in the extended . I love carrying it, because 23 rounds of .45 ain’t too shabby! Knowing it has double strike capabilities is also assuring. Even tho modern ammunition doesn’t usually require it, it’s just nice to know it has the capability if need be. I carry round in, decocked and safety off. If I have any reservations on t, it would have to be concern of diminished velocity of the 3” barrel.
I started my LE training and career with DA revolvers. My first off-duty weapon was a S&W Model 59 with this DA/SA trigger system, at a time when there was no official word from the LE training community. I carried it both ways but finally evolved to Safety Off, DA. Later I acquired a Walther PPK/a and treated it the same way as the M59. I considered these pistols as flat DA revolvers. Follow all the same safety rules, and I never had an issue with them. Th he only difference was that once you had stopped shooting you had to decock, and place it back to Fire.
Yep, I agree. The only issue I ever saw was with officers who de-cocked reflexively when they stop shooting rather than determining if a threat still existed before doing so.
@@hrfunk idea for you to discuss: we inherently tried to be as quick and efficient while shooting our qualifications. Shoot and re-holster. Apparently a Secret Service agent did that for real: fired 2 shots and re-holstered but the threat wasn't over! So he had to get back in the game! That's when we had to build in a pause, that evolved into Stop & Scan. Late 1980s?
@@frankhinkle5772 It seems to me I recall hearing about that incident, or at least one similar to it. It might be worth a short video discussing the problem of introducing inappropriate/dangerous muscle memory to shooting drills. I will have to give that some thought.
@@hrfunk I’ve heard things like that being referred to as “training scars”. I’ve heard about an officer who was killed in the line of duty and found with empty brass in his shirt pocket because that’s how they policed brass on the range. Not sure if it’s true or not.
@@bencrane8505 Similar muscle memory that HR commented on about firing 2 to center mass and one to the head automatically, instead of evaluating before firing the last shot. I heard that the spent brass was in the pocket of one of the four CHP officers after the Newhall Incident, but it is likely urban legend. However in my first training classes we did pocket our brass. That was 1974.
Solid and well thought out...allowing people to choose for themselves, without being pushy or calling anyone wrong. Great job. What I do, is rack the slide, place the firearm in safety, holster the weapon, then deactivate the manual safety after I holster the weapon. I do this because I am not really concerned about the weapon magically firing when it is holstered (LOL), but just as a level of protection from accidentally depressing the trigger when holstering. Chances of firing the weapon when holstering...I understand...miniscule...but I guess its just a comfort thing of not wanting to take the chance.
As a prior S&W M39 user, I am firmly with you in the view that the hammer should be dropped using the de-cocking lever and then that lever should be rotated back to the fire position. This gives you all the safety and simplicity of a double action revolver for the first shot out of the holster, but in a pistol with a slimmer profile, more shots available without a reload, and a faster reload if and when you do need to do one. But here's a thought that is often overlooked in the debate about DA/SA pistols - if that first shot doesn't need to be taken quickly, or is at a range where a more accurate SA trigger pull would be preferable, then there's nothing stopping you cocking the hammer manually as you bring the pistol to bear and taking advantage of the lighter trigger pull for a more accurate shot. That option gives you the best of all worlds if, and you've made this point repeatedly and I wholeheartedly agree with it, you put the time and training in to become fully proficient with your chosen pistol. But that's true whatever style of action you go for.
Well said! You have to put in the work with whatever system you use. BTW: the 39 series was sort of overlooked for the Wonder 9s, but was an excellent choice.
A very welcomed video on a seldom discussed topic. I have a "vintage" Ruger P85. It is often difficult for me to thumb up and disengage the safety on a draw. I too de-cock and holster. It helps a bit to realize that most of these firearms have an internal safety with the hammer down on a live round in the chamber. The trigger has to be fully drawn to the rear for a cam to disengage a firing pin block before the gun will fire.
Interesting video. I've heard all the arguments both ways. The only DA/SA pistols with a safety I've carried are the Walther PPK and the Beretta 84F Cheetah. Both I carried off safe.
Nice think piece today. I agree with the ready to fire crowd. Assuming a good holster which covers your trigger guard and consistent training which involves drawing your weapon, I think the risk of an accidental discharge is quite low. A lot of belt and suspenders people would disagree, that's fine, but for me the primary consideration is being ready to defend myself as quickly as possible within acceptable risks.
Chief, Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family! With the style of pistol you talked about I agree with you - de-cocked, safety off. That said, since I carried a S&W revolver for 40 years and I am used to just having to pull the trigger I transitioned to a Sig P365 for EDC. NO safety to worry about at all. The gun will NOT fire unless the trigger is pulled. I like the KISS method - and since for 40 years all I had to do is pull the trigger, I have gone forward with that same exact concept. I have witnessed a bunch of Club members and fellow toters that have inadvertently switched their safety's on and off unintentionally. Yea, they were shocked but if they had to use it in an emergency situation they would first have to figure out WHY their pistol did not go bang. After carrying for 40+ years I know there are times a safety can get flicked on or off by accident. So...... to me the best way is not to have a pistol with a safety at all. KISS method. If one carries a striker fired pistol with a round in the chamber, I would suggest and HOPE they have practiced enough to know how to handle it, holster it, and be familiar with it to avoid any potential problems. KISS. If that is too complicated - carry a revolver with no safety as most do not have them.
Thanks for a great comment! Unfortunately, I suspect there are a lot of semi-auto carrying pistoleers who would be better served by a good quality wheelgun.
I'm with you I carried safety off when holster. I went to work for the Military and the Armory guy wrote me up. I argued that it was for my protection and they said we pay you and you will do it our way. The next time I got was just before I retired.
Funny thing is, conventional wisdom has it that DA/SA hammer fired guns benefit from having a safety option (perhaps) but they’re treated like a pox on striker fired guns. But on my M17, which is the only striker gun I have an external safety on, I kind of like the option of activating the thumb safety as I perform admin tasks. Just spend time with it to train but also to learn whether it’s a loose thumb safety and prone to activate itself.
Another fine video sir. I carry a 1911 cocked and locked safety on and I’m so use to it it’s all I know and feel very safe in this condition. Recently I purchased a C Z 75 omega with the decocker and really starting to like it and getting use to it and my choices of how I wish to carry it. I like the fact of how many rounds in the C Z I can carry, but love my 1911’s. I guess I have a hard choice of what I’ll carry, but it’s A hard decision on giving up my 1911 45 acp for a 9mm. Thank you for this video and I know people are having the same decision I must make. Be safe out there H R
I personally use the safety on my with a trigger pull of 5 lbs or more only when performing tasks where time is not critical and there is no longer a threat such as holstering or unloading. However I train disengaging the safety just in case it is unintentionally engaged when I have to use my weapon in a high stress life threatening situation. Anyone that normally uses a safety on a self defense weapon better practice an awful lot and hope that practice works when their life is a stake. Thank you for a great video, keep up the good work.
Regardless of how you carry, if you carry a pistol with a manual safety, you should always train drawing your weapon as if the safety is on every time. This will allow for the possibility of the safety being on even if you think it is off. I have seen officers on the range draw their weapons thinking the safeties were off and fumble with it when they suddenly discover it is on during a round of training. Clearly this is not a good situation to get into.
It's a matter of training. Make your choice and train, train, train. Glocks obviously don't have safeties and you have to be very cognizant that it doesn't take much for that firearm to go off, so you have to train to be aware of this, as accidental discharges are more frequent with this type of firearm. The flip side is if your firearm does have a manual safety, you have to be conditioned to remove it before attempting to fire. There is a famous picture of a law enforcement officer lying deceased on the floor of a grocery store with his drawn pistol on the floor next to him with the safety still engaged....
I like the added measure of the 5904/459 safety decocker. Put one in the pipe safety on.. I'm fairly certain I can flip it off and pull the trigger. I train with it, it's muscle memory second nature for me.
For the generation (1st, 2nd, 3rd) of S&W pistols hrfunk covered in the video, the “safety” is a decocker first, and a safety second. Its first function is to drop a cocked hammer safely. Its second function is to disconnect the trigger from the action so that pulling the trigger does not fire the gun. A decocked hammer is also held slightly back from the firing pin by the decocker mechanism inside the slide. These pistols have a firing pin block connected to the trigger. The firing pin has a notch that a spring-loaded plunger fits in. The plunger in pushed via a lever when the trigger is pulled allowing the hammer to push the firing pin forward striking the primer of the cartridge. This system makes the gun drop-safe and is similar to Colt’s series 80 1911. In the 1990’s, S&W made a modified version of the 40 S&W caliber 3rd generation pistol for the California Highway Patrol (CHP). The decocker was spring loaded to return to the up position (“off safe”) when activated. This is similar to the Berretta 92G. CHP knew the gun was meant to be carried and used in a manner similar to a double-action revolver - draw, point, shoot - with no safety to activate. As hrfunk states, the long and heavy double-action trigger pull is itself part of the pistol’s safety system. Most modern handguns are drop-safe via a mechanism to prevent inadvertent contact between the hammer and firing pin, or striker, and the cartridge’s primer. Most pistols have a firing pin or striker block; S&W uses a hammer block and Ruger uses a transfer bar on their revolvers. Some states require handguns to be drop-safe. Most rifles and shotguns are NOT drop-safe.
@@hrfunk Agree - I will not part with my 6906. Fortunately the originals are available as law enforcement trade-ins. Another reason for the decocker was to counter the 1911’s “scary” cocked hammer i.e, cocked and locked, which in some police departments was compared to using a revolver in single-action mode. Few people know that most shotguns, rifles, and striker-fired pistols are cocked and locked. In addition, the only method to drop a 1911 hammer was to pull the trigger while holding back the hammer, releasing the trigger, and then easing the hammer down. This task was simplified and made much safer with a flip of the decocker.
@@hrfunk thank you! Hope your Thanksgiving was as tasty as the one I ate. Had a rotisserie and smoked turkey dinner that I'd never had before. It was amazing. Cold smoked overnight till 7:30 AM then brought the heat up and cooked till 3:30 PM all on a pellet type smoker. Wished I'd smoked the sweet potatoes too. Try that sometime with peach wood after you cook it inside. You won't believe how good it is. Enjoy those turkey sandwiches. Semper Fi, Cuz!
I prefer the built-in safeties in pistols like the Glocks, where there is no external safety, therefore keeping your finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire is your biggest safety.
It again is a matter of personal preference. The key is how you train with your firearm. I for example prefer to carry without a round in the chamber, safety off. Pulling the gun out and racking the slide becomes muscle memory, and that way the gun is far away from the holster (and my leg) when the round enters the chamber.
When it's not in a holster but in something like a glove box, I prefer to keep the safety engaged on my old S&W Model 39. Of course there is no guarantee it won't disengage itself, but the DA trigger is a good backup plan. I've had glove box 1911 safeties disengage more than once, which is why I no longer put them in there unless holstered.
Depends on the design. Many DA/SA semi-autos have terrible ergonomics for the safety lever and/or decocker: those 1980s S&W pistols, the Star Model 30 and others. If the pistol used a transfer bar or other internal drop resistant safety, I didn't use the safety lever. The Benelli B76 had a flawed execution of a unique and otherwise good design. The safety lever had good ergonomics so I used it. And it could be carried cocked and locked. But the 1911-A1 types, Browning Hi-Power, Star PD, etc, cocked and locked, always. But only in an appropriate holster.
Howard, I leave the thumb safety on if my firearm has one because if the exposed hammer is struck with an object it could cause an accidental discharge all the handguns I use today are Springfield Armory XD, XDM , HellCat and they do not have a thumb safety. I prefer no Thumb Safety like my SIG P226, P220, Beretta 92F, 92FC had. The Grip Safety and the safety blade in the trigger of the Springfield XD, XDM , Hell Cat is my preference. For this reason only. Those exposed hammers on firearms with the thumb safety get hit with enough force the firearm will discharge if the safety is not engaged. My advice is to carry a firearm without a thumb safety.
I would tend to use the safety, just on general principle, and I would train myself to engage and disengage it. That way, I would be able to handle the gun, and not fumble around with it, when I need it.
Thanks for the video and how you covered the subject. I've run both striker fired as well as SA automatics for years. I've always appreciated the S&W SA/DA firearms for a long time but never put much work in with them. In the last couple of years I've added a 459 and 3913 which has me learning the systems of those firearms. Given my hand size and shape I find the 459 a bit bulkier than I care for. The 3913 is a revelation though and I qualify with it as well as I do my issued firearm which is a Glock 23. The flat narrow profile of the 3913 makes operating the safety/decocker almost as easy as operating the safety on a 1911 for me with my hand size. One of the things I like about the S&W automatics over others is the magazine disconnect for a similar reason for liking the safety/decocker. Operating the DA/SA firearms has me learning a new skillset. I don't carry the 459 but do carry the 3913 and with that one I carry with the safety/decocker engaged. Happy Thanksgiving.
Thanks, H.R.! Another great video! I still use the manual safety on occasion, when I'm carrying a pistol that comes with one, but I find myself slowly getting away from it more and more. Happy Thanksgiving and God bless, friends!
A good holster is an external safety measure. Always condition 1 single action. Don’t know that it’s necessary but I’ve always carried a DA revolver hammer down on an empty chamber.
I have a S&W 415, which is the bare bones version of your pistol featured in this video. I'm comfortable carrying safety off with its long dbl action pull. But, I carry concealed exclusively. I also found these older guns to be insanely accurate. I've actually reverted to DA/SA carry guns from the striker fire pistols.
If I'd leave the safety off I'd be worried that it'd flick to safe rubbing against something. That is different with the big movement on your S&W. At certain CZs I ride the thumb safety anyway and with others I prefer decocker only. With H&K the LEM trigger is also an option while still keeping the decocker.
On DA/SA pistols I prefer to not have a safety, just a decocker. The only reason I haven’t swapped my 92FS to a G code is I’m unsure of my skill in doing it myself.
My cz 2075 rami manual safety only engages in sa mode with the hammer back, since I pocket holster carry it, it feels safer to me to manually drop the hammer to half cock for a double action trigger pull. When the rami is at half cock, the safety cannot be engaged, which I am ok with. When I pocket carry my 45 acp m&p shield, I keep the manual safety on. Used to own a 9 mm m&p shield 1.0 with apex trigger duty and carry kit, there was no manual safety on that model so I always kydex iwb carried at 4 o’clock, appendix carry gave me pause, as did pocket carry. What you said made sense to me.
I agree with your choices based on threat levels faced by military and police situations. I like the simplicity of a revolver, and my fav semi is the 1911. For civilians I am more inclined to advise a "carry" condition based on Jeff Cooper's system. White, Yellow, Orange, Red. (omitting USMC condition Black) In White you are unprepared and unready to take lethal action. If you are attacked in White you will probably die unless your adversary is totally inept. In Yellow you bring yourself to the understanding that your life may be in danger and that you may have to do something about it. In Orange you have determined upon a specific adversary and are prepared to take action which may result in his death, but you are not in a lethal mode. In Red you are in a lethal mode and will shoot if circumstances warrant. Most people are capable of long periods in "Yellow" but rarely require a cocked and locked condition. If you are on a Call, or Stand To, then Orange is suitable for a more advanced carry state. Condition 4: Chamber empty, no magazine in the gun, hammer down, safety on. Condition 3: Chamber empty, full magazine in place, hammer down, safety on. Condition 2: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer down, safety on. Condition 1: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer cocked, safety on. Also referred to as "cocked and locked." Condition 0: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer cocked, safety off. What you advocate for a police carry is a good all round compromise. Many civilians train and practice frequently and are at a high level of competence; but quite a few fall into the mediocre level, and they should use a condition 3 for added safety.
honestly, the safety is there for a reason, it is, in my vew, just a movment of the thumb to take the safety off... one should always have it on, and acctuly train to take it off when they draw the gun, for their own safety
Great thread, I would caveat that this only applies to DA/SA fire pistols, SA pistols like the 1911 should have the safety engaged and most striker fired pistols generally don't have a manual safety. Personally I prefer DA/SA pistols for CCW because of the long trigger pull and the ability to put my thumb on the hammer when re-holstering to prevent a negligent discharge. We have all seen videos of negligent discharges from people re-holstering a striker fired pistol, I think DA/SA pistols does a good job of mitigating most of that risk. Furthermore with many people preferring IWB holsters for concealed carry (regardless of position) a negligent discharge can have life altering results..
Decocked with safety off for me. Started that with a Breretta 92FS because the mechanics of swiping the Safety off on the draw was just wrong , pushing up with the thumb instead of swiping down like a 1911. Now I have a 92 G (decock only) and don't have to think about it.
Depends on the gun. 1911 or CZ-75 for example are designed to be cocked and locked for carry, A Beretta M9's double action trigger is sufficiently bad that carrying the gun hammer down safety off is proper.
That's a tough call. I carry a Sig SAS EDC, it has no manual safety on it. So it gets one in the chamber and goes in a kydex holster at the 4 o'clock position. If I Cary it in my pocket no round goes in the chamber. I know it's counter productive, but that's just my comfort level. My Beretta m9 has one in the chamber and safety on. Because that's how I train with it. Drawing and flipping the safety off is one motion. I use my joint of my thumb to disengage it. So it's no problem and I don't have to adjust my grip it's a natural move. My clock 21 has one in the chamber and also goes in a holster for a little external protection of the trigger. I don't know what is right or wrong this is just what I'm comfortable doing. All I know is I feel better having one and not needing it than needing one and not having it.
As a civilian that live in a tropical and humid place, AIWB is the most concealable and convenient method of carry. As sush, personally, O refuse to carry any semiauto that it's not ether a double action or has a manual safety. But that's just me.
I think it's personal preference unless the pistol has no safety or has a decocker only. Since many of us have multiple pistols that we carry for different situations, some with and some without external safeties, I think it's better to carry with the safety off so that one doesn't forget to disengage it in a deadly force encounter, which could get you killed.
I carried a Beretta 92FS 9MM as a duty weapon and had the safety off after decocking the handgun, so it was a draw and shoot without a safety to disengage. Now I have no problem with either system as I carry a 1911 a LOT so am use to sweeping the safety as I draw, but that is a more natural motion than say a Beretta 92FS or S&W DA/SA pistol. (Used them both). The CZ75D Compact, SIG P226 as examples have decock but no manual safety to engage and both are excellent handguns, no one seems to have issues carrying these with a round in the chamber for personal defense. I DO seem to use the safety when carrying smaller pocket guns like the Walther PP/PPK series or even the neat Sauer 38H. I mess with these weapons so much that it has been automatic for me to draw and disengage a safety even in the smaller weapons (size). I think it depends on what the person is comfortable with and will TRAIN with that is the key here both work for a person with the skill to use these in either mode. Probably is no real right answer just personal preferences. (I know the tactical reasons for this, if your weapon is snatched etc. but also a S&W for instance if you drop the magazine but touch the face of the trigger, it will go BOOM if the slightest pressure is maintained...possibly a good follow-up for those who are unfamiliar with this coinciding with the safety on-off carry?) Have a wonderful Thanksgiving to you and the family. Stay warm (COLD here in Florida was down to 48 last night, no worries will warm to mid 70's today)
Interesting discussion topic. I'm not a big fan of slide mounted safeties, for the reasons you mentioned. On a DA/SA pistol I'm very comfortable with the long DA pull being my safety. Prior to switching to Sig P320, I carried a P226 for years. That DA first trigger pull was longer and heavier than the Colt revolver I carried before it. Even though it's not the primary topic of discussion, I'll add that I'm not as comfortable with carrying a striker fired pistol, like the P320 without the manual safety engaged. I swapped FCUs between my M17 and RXP X-compact to have that manual safety in my EDC pistol to prevent that relatively light trigger from actuating inadvertently. One of the things Glock does very well is their striker system. When it's at rest, the spring doesn't store enough force to ignite the primer if the striker safety fails. The striker is "cocked" to full spring tension as the trigger is pulled, just prior to the sear releasing the striker. It might be an interesting video topic to compare the relative amount of force stored in the striker spring/assembly when at rest in a variety of common striker-fired pistols. Thank you for the very interesting video!
@@hrfunk I think much of it would have to rely on functional design description from the manufacturer. I'm not sure hot it could be independently tested.
I'm in the camp of "if it has a safety, I use it". My preferences are revolver first, DA/SA semiautomatic second, and 1911 third. I can hear it now - "1911 in third????" Yes. Primarily because it has never felt comfortable in my hand. Never. Can I shoot it? Yes. Do I understand it? Yes. Can I keep it on target? Yes. Do I like the available calibers? Yes. But in spite of everything, it has never felt comfortable in my hand. And the revolver is in first because that's what I cut my eye teeth on. I guess it's similar to never forgetting your first love.
Whichever method is used, the carrier needs to use it consistently so that when stressed, good ol' muscle memory will save the day. Everyone should try different methods and then decide which suits their needs best. But once you've chosen, stick with it. My agency used Sig DA/SA models years ago and I used the same carry method you prefer. We later moved to Glocks and just before I retired, they decided to go back to Sigs again. It never ceases to amaze me how agencies will decide to spend money to fix non-existent problems... Whatever,... it's just money!
All my semi auto pistols have safeties, except for a couple of DAO 3rd gen guns. Only problem with carrying safety off is if the safety gets bumped to “on” and you weren’t aware. You now have a gun that won’t fire when you want it to. I’ve retired my 3rd gen’s with safeties and my Beretta 92’s, to range use only. My carry guns all have safeties, although they are now frame mounted down to fire. If you’re going to carry a gun with a safety, you should practice flipping it off on the draw, even if you carry it safety off.
I have several handguns with the Beretta 92FS style safety/decocker. (92A1, Cougar 8000, Bersa Thunder, etc.) The ergonomics allow me to disengage the safety with a flick of the thumb as I draw. On other DA/SA handguns (including 92FS clones) the safety is not as ergonomic -- it does not lend itself to a fluid movement of the thumb. Carrying a handgun with the safety off begs the question: What if the safety somehow were to become engaged? Shouldn't your muscle memory train to always disengage the safety (even it's normally off) when you draw?
Others have made that same point. Personally, I’m comfortable carrying with the safety off. In all the years I’ve carried pistols with that trigger/safety, I’ve never had the safety accidentally engage on its own.
I carry my Beretta 92FS or my CZ 75B decocked with the safety off. The double-action trigger is heavy enough for safety. My 1911 goes cocked and locked. For me, it's a question of how much pressure and how much travel is required to fire the pistol. Of course, Glocks have a light and squishy trigger with no safety--nope, that dingus on the trigger doesn't qualify--and things work out well enough for most users.
Excellent reasoning and logic! I also carry with the Safety OFF on DA/SA handguns. Yes, DA/SA Handguns are making a bit of a comeback and I don't think they ever went away. They just got less attention. Happy Thanksgiving!
This is a moot point for me because I only have one pistol with a safety/decocker and it's too big to carry concealed. Both of my carry guns are SA striker fired without safeties and I carry them with a round in the chamber. I deal with this by practicing daily for half an hour This way I can stay proficient with drawing and presenting at all times and with different clothing options. If you don't practice regularly it won't matter how you carry, you won't be able to effectively draw and present the weapon under stress if heaven forbid, thee need should arise. This applies no matter what type of firearm you carry. Practice is an absolute necessity. Just make sure you do it safely.
I prefer safety on, for the reasons that you mention but also because if it's always on, it can't be on accidentally. You need to train to disengage it all the time so if you are going to do that, you might as well leave it engaged all the time. That said, I usually carry DAOs.
I can see one advantage to leaving the safety/decocker on that wasn’t mentioned. If you have a 1911 style pistol you carry as well as a traditional double action pistol the manual of arms may be the same IF the direction of movement is the same. As such there would not be a “do I move the safety” when you transition between guns.
My wife and I have carried, both on and off-duty, one or another model of that design for decades. We both, working for the same agency, were trained to carry with the safety/decocker on thumbing it off during the draw stroke.
Several years ago we took a class together and the instructor remarked several times on us drawing the same way together. Even with the removing of the safety on the draw stroke, we were as fast, if not faster, on target than those with the safety disengaged for the draw.
During the initial draw stroke, the right thumb smoothly slides to the full grip and at the same time thumbs the safety off and then we complete the draw. Neither she nor I have found this to hinder or slow the draw. This is a strong positive move that does not lend itself to fumbling at all. It has never failed us and we do so to this day with our 3913s.
Being Deputy Sheriff's in one man cars and way out in the County, it was comforting to know that my gun was a bit more secure but readily available to hand.
For me it has served me well through 39-2, 59, 459, 3913 and 5906 S&Ws. For her the 3913 and the Beretta 92F.
BTW: I am a huge fan of the 3rd gen Smith and often watch your video with that outstanding 39-2 in nickel.
Thank you! I love my traditional S&W auto-loaders! Also, as your post proves once again, the key is always training and experience. There really is no substitute for that. You have obviously trained yourself, as has your wife, to be extremely proficient at disengaging your pistol’s safety. Good job! Also, happy Thanksgiving!
Happy Thanksgiving to you also, Sir!
Totally agree training and experience are the key! Happy Thanksgiving Gentlemen!
Yes flippin’ the safety off with the thumb is integral to the draw from the holster. All one move. I’m with you, just not up for a lot of typing here!
I don't mind a safety, it has a purpose. I find it funny when the tacticool crowd can do all things like clear jams and reload on the move in a gunfight, but a safety is on, NO GOOD. Impossible to flick it off I guess. The best use of a safety is for the guy who drops his gun and his automatic response to grab it before it hits the ground.
Couldn't agree more, they serve a purpose. If it is a well designed safety, accessing it is quite easy.
Good points but the argument is that fine motor skill are compromised by the adrenalin dump in a fight for your life nd the practice of flicking off a safety is lost. Including that of a 1911 or BHP cocked 'n locked in condition 1. Tacticool is just that, not gunfighting.
I get where they are coming from with the safety. Especially with some designs where it's possible to accidentally engage the safety without you intending to.
Being able to clear jams in a gunfight is not a reason to choose a gun that jams more, in that same sense being able to flick the safety is not a reason to use a gun with safety. The safety should be the reason to pick a gun with manual safety. But if you don't trust yourself with the safety, just don't want to deal with it and/or trust the other safety features on the gun enough to prevent an ND, then by all means, use a gun without one.
When I carried a sidearm that had an external safety on-duty, the safety was not utilized; none of my cohorts used their safeties either.
I would really love to see a presentation on JHP grain selection, 115 vs 124 vs 147 out of modern defensive micro 9mm pistols with barrels under 3.5 inch’s
Thanks, I'll give that some thought.
Unfortunately at the moment it's whatever you can find to buy or have stockpiled.
Paul Harrell may already have had several videos covering that topic.
And if you need some just for the test, luckygunner has boxes of HST 50rd for $42 atm in every weight. It’s not a great price but if you aren’t trying to stack it deep and just need a box of each for testing it is an option.
Interesting subject; as a guy who carried Ruger and Smith DA revolvers for many YEARS (and traditional DA/SA Sig’s, CZ’s, and H&K USP’s for more years) I am not wedded to manual safeties, but I unfailingly use them when they’re incorporated in the design.
Same here
As long as you can remember to hit the safety off before you need it.
I don't trust internal strikers. I own Barettas
@@daveweed2765
The first autoloaders I ever owned or carried regularly were 1911A1’s (my active duty began in the late-1960’s, long before the M9 was the standard sidearm), so disengaging a thumb safety is entirely normal for me.
@@roykiefer7713 Exactly. My first duty station was in Pusan Korea in 1990. I was on the M60 team just in case and we were issued 1911s along with our... get this, M16 A1s. So far south we actually had older weapons but damn, that was cool. Triangular forgeries and all. In basic and AIT we had the A2s. I think only two people were issued AS. So... a few had to qualify 4 times. M16s, M1911s and familiarized on the few M9s, M60 and M2s just in case. Korea was cool because there were bunkers at the front and back gates and my position was at the front gate.
Personal preference though is the M9 over the M1911s. The higher mag capacity and decoder and single/double action just seals the deal. But 1911s are just plain "sexy" and fun to fire. But it bugs the crap out of me to carry with the hammer cooked. But I trust that more than internal strikers though.
@@daveweed2765
Thanks for this nice reply. Like you, my “personal preference” for “service sized” autoloaders these days is a 9mm, traditional DA/SA, hammer fired, all steel, large capacity, semiautomatic . . . but the CZ 75B, not the Beretta M9/92. However,, 1911A1’s continue to warm my heart, even though I understand their capacity limitations.
Great video, HR.
When I did have a DA/SA pistol, I carried it like you do.
Thanks Skip, and happy Thanksgiving!
Great topic...Can't wait to hear your take and the comments. I think the last pistol I had with a safety was S&W 5906. If I recall correctly, the "safety" lever also acted as a decocker if the hammer was back.
I used a 5906 several years as a duty weapon. Very reliable weapon. I wish I would have not traded it off.
I let my original 5904 get away after using it as a duty weapon. Three decades later I finally replaced it with the one in the video. This one is never leaving my collection again! All this to tell you, I understand exactly what you’re saying. Happy Thanksgiving!
My SO starting issuing these complete with new holster and mags. Free gun? Why not? Had it for awhile and found it 100% reliable and a really good gun! However, found it to be too heavy for a 9mm and gave it back and went back to my Sig 226. If they had offered the lighter weight 5904, I would have carried it forever!
Either method is correct. Just be sure to train for the method you go with until it becomes second nature to you. I really appreciate your no nonsense no judgement style. Thank you Mr. Funk👍🏼
You’re welcome. Thanks for watching!
Back in the late 80s, early in my police career, l read an article by Massad Ayoob In it, he listed the benefits of safety on carry, especially for police officers , citing the benefits you named, and others. I’d just switched from a .357 revolver to a Glock 17. I liked the weight and capacity, but not the feel. Swapped it shortly for a S&W 645. Since the article resonated with me, I trained myself to carry safety on. Except for some occasional periods of being forced to carry something different, I’ve stayed with the DA/SA system ever since for duty carry, and most off duty. For rural expeditions I still go with .357 revolvers. Safety comes off automatically as part of my draw. Even as holster security improved, I stayed with the system. It doesn’t hamper my 1st shot time much. I’m much more likely to have to fight for my gun than have to depend on that part of a second lost in my draw. As a parting thought, appendix carry has no appeal to me, safety on or off. Cruiser spread has made it uncomfortable, and there’s too many tender bits up front for my peace of mind.
Thanks for the comment Gregory, and happy Thanksgiving!
@@hrfunk same to you and yours, sir.
I agree with you. When I carry my 365, I have it with a safety. I appendix carry and am not to comfortable with a striker fire without a safety in that position. It requires a lot of dry fire to remember to sweep off the safety on a draw.
I carry with the safety on but I appreciate you showing both sides of the story.
Generally I carried safety off on DA/SA pistols, the exception was my H&K USP / USP Compact where the safety lever is on the frame not the slide and was naturally disengaged as part of the grip/draw.
As much as I love Berettas and Smiths, HK and Sig do the best job with a decocker. Now if HK could only get their trigger as good as a Beretta.
Since I'm the one carrying, I like to idiot proof whenever possible so I kinda like safeties. I do practice swiping down on the safety every single time I present a pistol so even when I'm handling my glocks, I swipe down on their ghost safety, every time, just so I never forget to. Thanks for the vid Chief Happy Thanksgiving.
As a LEO with over 25 years, I personally prefer utilizing the external safety, if equipped, on personal carry due to the characteristics of many off duty holsters which are generally closer to the body where an accidental trigger engagement may present itself, at least more than an external duty holster which are generally level 2 or more with respects to retention. My duty sidearms never had the external safeties. I would suggest that anyone who does carry a firearm with an external safety engaged, it would benefit them to practice with that configuration.
Excellent coverage of this topic. Thank you.
A Great Topic HR !...My Opinion as a retired LE firearms instructor who transitioned my dept. from 357 revolvers to the first issue of the Beretta 92F.....The "decocker" was taught and treated as just that...decock, flick the lever back up and holster....Remember that originally Beretta did not offer a return spring on the decocker.....Even after years of in-service training I still saw about 10% of the experienced officers would have an initial failure to fire on a stage of the requal course.....due to them having decocked and holstered without flipping the lever back up to fire position. Civilians who use an engaged safety without stress fire training are more likely to be in trouble with this. My normal carry weapon is a 1911 cocked and locked.....but like you, I have had thousands of weapon presentations so my thumb safety is pressed down automatically every time I present the weapon. Even Beretta eventually offered a spring loaded decocking lever for the reasons mentioned.
Thanks for the comment! I really like the Beretta pistols. They are a dream to shoot. The safety is a “slight” detracting from the overall design. If I were going to carry one for a duty weapon, I would prefer the G model to prevent the issue you mentioned.
As you said, in experienced hands, the 1911’s safety is no handicap.
Thanks for the comment and Merry Christmas!
First, and most importantly, HAPPY THANKSGIVING to all! We live in trying - Covid, the economy, national divisiveness, seeming political ineptness, rampant lawlessness, and so forth - times. HOWEVER, individually and as a society we have SO MUCH for which we should be profoundly grateful. Those who have served overseas will (I suspect) especially understand my feelings. I hope that, in our own ways, we’ll take stock of our blessings, and quietly and privately give thanks tomorrow . . . and, for that matter, every day.
Okay, now for today’s video, which I appreciate and which focuses on an important subject. I have carried (and I still do) Smith and Ruger DA revolvers for 50+ years; therefore, the concept of no external safety (or a mechanical decocker) and of a long and not-light trigger pull acting as the firearm’s safety is absolutely natural - and entirely comfortable - to me. IT WORKS, it has been proven to do so for generations, and - factually - any weapon’s “real safety” is located between the operator’s ears, not on the weapon. Of course, even with excellent DA revolvers, some reasonable precautions are necessary (pocket carry in SA mode, for example, would be foolhardy).
I own - and truly love - four “traditional DA/SA” autoloaders:
1. Two Sig P Series (a 220 and a 226), which have mechanical decockers.
2. A CZ 75B, which has no decocker, but has a safety that can be activated only when the hammer is cocked.
3. An H&K USP, which has a combination decocker/safety.
Since these DA/SA semiautomatics have quite different “safety systems,” I’ll offer my opinion regarding the advantages and disadvantages of each design approach:
1a. Sig’s P Series are outstanding SA/DA semiautomatics, but they do not permit cocked and locked (Condition One) carry. IMHO, this is a deficiency, but no a substantial one. After all, one can fire the first round in DA or can (time and circumstances permitting) cock the hammer for the chambered round (and decock safely with the mechanical device).
2a. I greatly appreciate the CZ 75B’s design and quality. I have a round chambered at all times, but I have the option of firing that first round in DA or in SA; moreover, if I opt for SA, I can activate the thumb safety and carry the 75B in Condition One, as I have long done with my 1911A1’s. The only disadvantage of this system is decocking with a live round chambered. This really is no different than manually decocking a revolver - BUT care is absolutely required (in fact, I place a finger between the hammer and the firing pin, as I firmly hold and lower the hammer). This also WORKS, however, complacency can be dangerous . . . some years ago, I neglected to ensure the hammer spur was clean and dry, and it slipped from my grasp; fortunately that finger between the hammer’s face and the firing pin precluded a negligent discharge.
3a. The superb H&K USP’s system “does it all.” It allows a long, heavy DA first round trigger pull, a “cocked and locked” SA first round trigger pull, and mechanical decocking with a chambered round.
To conclude, I’m fine with any of the foregoing design approaches for traditional DA/SA semiautomatics. My preference is for the H&K USP’s design, simply because it “does it all.” But I most frequently carry my CZ 75B, becuase it accommodates “cocked and locked” carry - a clear advantage (imho). Sig’s P Series design obviously is excellent, but I prefer a 1911A1’s Condition One approach, which I can have with the H&K USP and the the CZ 75B, but not with the Sig P220 or P226.
But that’s only one fellow’s opinion.
And a fine opinion it is Roy. I also want to echo your sentiments from the beginning of this post. I always tell people that one never realizes how great this country is until you leave it for a while and see how other people live. Happy Thanksgiving!
There is one more safe state that you could have covered: Safety on, no chambered round. My PPK's safety prevents the slide from moving, so a round cannot even be loaded, the gun cannot be cocked, nor double-action fired. I consider this to be a safe way to carry the weapon in a backpack/bag without the use of a rigid holster. As you say, a person unfamiliar with the operation, would not be able to use the weapon, but since I am use to the safety, it doesn't slow me at all.
Speaking purely for myself, I always found the DA/SA safeties of that type a bit difficult to disengage quickly. First, they are counterintuitive. Unlike the SA safety of a 1911 or Hi-Power, the thumb movement required is not a natural component of assuming a shooting grip. This makes it more difficult to learn, and I would argue that even though you CAN train yourself to do it, it probably slows your first shot from the draw, as you then have to bring your thumb back down INTO proper shooting position... perhaps only by one or two tenths of a second, but in a gunfight that's not time I really want to lose. Second, and more importantly, I have relatively small hands for a man, wearing a size 8 (Medium) glove, and I always found I had to shift my grip slightly to give my thumb sufficient purchase to reliably throw the safety lever. This slows me down even further, and I can only imagine how much more it would slow a shooter with even smaller hands, such as a small-statured female. Thus, safety OFF is my preference, and the carry mode I always recommend.
The decocker pistols are great. As you mentioned, you can choose safety on or off. The feature that drew me to those type guns was safely decocking (no chance of fingers slipping from the hammer). Keeping it on safe? As you said, you choose. I prefer the safety off. The gun is ready to fire. Keep your finger off the trigger until ready to fire. Works for me. CZ took choice away on their decocker. Press the lever and you are back to DA and no safety. My Ruger P89 operates just as your Smith. To fire, you must flip the lever. Thesr type guns are or should be, the safest you can get. Great topic by the way.
Thanks Mike, and thanks for watching!
If it has a safety I always use it before it goes into the holster.
If it doesn't have external safeties then be extra careful before you holster it.
It is a Military thing.
As a rookie many years ago, we were issued the S&W 5906 9mm. Our firearm instructor trained us not to use the safety/decocker as a safety but only as a decocker. If for instance, you had to fire the weapon and then the scene was safe, you would decock it and then immediately flip it to fire, leaving it ready to use in double action. Made sense to me then and now and that's the way I do it to this day.
Chief, great video and there is one additional benefit for carrying the way you do with that firearm. Its the fastest to first shot. There is a video on the Fieldcraft Survival Channel where two ex SEALs discuss and show the Green Beret guy who runs the channel the way they train and carry with the SIG pistols and specific benefits of that platform over Glock. They train specifically to stage the trigger as the gun has cleared the holster and is pointed towards the target so by the time the gun is aligned with the target it is simple pull at the wall. They argue this is the fastest way to shoot under stress when the decision has been made to shoot. Bill Jordan in "No Second Place Winner" and Jim Cirillo in "Guns, Bullets, and Gunfights" made the same argument with .357 magnum revolvers, arguing that if you staged the trigger this way the length of trigger pull and the wall would work to make the shooter faster. FWIW Ernest Langdon won a whole lot of shooting championships in the early 2000s with this technique, his shop now specializes in customizing Berretta PX4 Storms.
This technique is not for me, but I thought I would mention it. I am not sure what I really think of it, there are drawbacks but yes I can see its utility in some situations for those who train with it.
Very nice Smith, that series of pistols was IMHO some of the best ever made.
Thanks Alec, I watched that video. While I have no doubt the gentlemen in the video are outstanding warfighters, I think their presentation demonstrates how techniques are driven by the circumstances surrounding an armed encounter.
Let’s consider the application of a pistol in military operations. Typically, a pistol is going to be a CQB option serving as back-up to something like an M4 (or other long gun). In this context, the pistol will be employed in circumstances where bad guys are close and must be stopped as quickly as possible. In such a scenario, if the pistol is employed, it will probably have to be fired as quickly as possible. This is similar to a lot of action shooting competitions where time is a major factor and fractions of a second can separate winners from losers. For either of those applications, I think the technique demonstrated in the video you mentioned are effective and prudent.
The issue I see is this. For law enforcement officers and armed citizens, the circumstances are different. Training one’s self to draw and immediately fire could lead to an unfortunate end. I have been in many situations where I have drawn my weapon to cover an individual who I believed to be a hostile threat, but I was not legally justified in firing at that person. This is not an uncommon situation for officers who proceed to issue verbal commands to a suspect.
An armed citizen can be in similar circumstances. Imagine searching your house at night after hearing a suspicious sound and discovering an intruder. Do you really want to fire at that person immediately? Or do you want to challenge him from a position of cover with your weapon trained on him?
The decision to fire, for most of us, is dictated by our adversary’s actions. If my suspect complies with my commands and never presents a lethal threat, I take him into custody without firing a shot. If you challenge your intruder and he turns tail and flees, I would advise against shooting him in the back on his way to the door (different jurisdictions will view that action differently, but morally I wouldn’t want to shoot someone who was not a threat). The armed citizen could face a similar dilemma outside the home. In any event, I think training/conditioning yourself to draw, prep the trigger, and fire instantly when the pistol comes on line with your “bad guy” could lead to unforeseen problems.
As I carry a single action only pistol (1911) I carry with a round in the chamber, hammer cocked, and safety on. Very interesting video! Thank you for delivering amazing content!
You’re welcome Wesley, thanks for watching!
I have a Taurus 24/7 Pro C DS in .45acp subcompact that is striker fired DA/SA with a decocker. Because of the grip angle it is actually smaller than my Smith J Frame and has the largest capacity of any .45acp subcompact I’ve ever come across. It actually holds 10 in the flush mag and 12 in the extended . I love carrying it, because 23 rounds of .45 ain’t too shabby! Knowing it has double strike capabilities is also assuring. Even tho modern ammunition doesn’t usually require it, it’s just nice to know it has the capability if need be. I carry round in, decocked and safety off. If I have any reservations on t, it would have to be concern of diminished velocity of the 3” barrel.
I started my LE training and career with DA revolvers. My first off-duty weapon was a S&W Model 59 with this DA/SA trigger system, at a time when there was no official word from the LE training community. I carried it both ways but finally evolved to Safety Off, DA. Later I acquired a Walther PPK/a and treated it the same way as the M59. I considered these pistols as flat DA revolvers. Follow all the same safety rules, and I never had an issue with them. Th he only difference was that once you had stopped shooting you had to decock, and place it back to Fire.
Yep, I agree. The only issue I ever saw was with officers who de-cocked reflexively when they stop shooting rather than determining if a threat still existed before doing so.
@@hrfunk idea for you to discuss: we inherently tried to be as quick and efficient while shooting our qualifications. Shoot and re-holster. Apparently a Secret Service agent did that for real: fired 2 shots and re-holstered but the threat wasn't over! So he had to get back in the game! That's when we had to build in a pause, that evolved into Stop & Scan. Late 1980s?
@@frankhinkle5772 It seems to me I recall hearing about that incident, or at least one similar to it. It might be worth a short video discussing the problem of introducing inappropriate/dangerous muscle memory to shooting drills. I will have to give that some thought.
@@hrfunk I’ve heard things like that being referred to as “training scars”. I’ve heard about an officer who was killed in the line of duty and found with empty brass in his shirt pocket because that’s how they policed brass on the range. Not sure if it’s true or not.
@@bencrane8505 Similar muscle memory that HR commented on about firing 2 to center mass and one to the head automatically, instead of evaluating before firing the last shot. I heard that the spent brass was in the pocket of one of the four CHP officers after the Newhall Incident, but it is likely urban legend. However in my first training classes we did pocket our brass. That was 1974.
Solid and well thought out...allowing people to choose for themselves, without being pushy or calling anyone wrong. Great job. What I do, is rack the slide, place the firearm in safety, holster the weapon, then deactivate the manual safety after I holster the weapon. I do this because I am not really concerned about the weapon magically firing when it is holstered (LOL), but just as a level of protection from accidentally depressing the trigger when holstering. Chances of firing the weapon when holstering...I understand...miniscule...but I guess its just a comfort thing of not wanting to take the chance.
Minuscule perhaps, but it has happened more than once. Your precaution is well conceived.
That 5904 is awesome!
Thanks! I like it too.
As a prior S&W M39 user, I am firmly with you in the view that the hammer should be dropped using the de-cocking lever and then that lever should be rotated back to the fire position. This gives you all the safety and simplicity of a double action revolver for the first shot out of the holster, but in a pistol with a slimmer profile, more shots available without a reload, and a faster reload if and when you do need to do one. But here's a thought that is often overlooked in the debate about DA/SA pistols - if that first shot doesn't need to be taken quickly, or is at a range where a more accurate SA trigger pull would be preferable, then there's nothing stopping you cocking the hammer manually as you bring the pistol to bear and taking advantage of the lighter trigger pull for a more accurate shot. That option gives you the best of all worlds if, and you've made this point repeatedly and I wholeheartedly agree with it, you put the time and training in to become fully proficient with your chosen pistol. But that's true whatever style of action you go for.
I couldn’t have said it any better than that Alan. Thanks again for another great comment!
Well said! You have to put in the work with whatever system you use. BTW: the 39 series was sort of overlooked for the Wonder 9s, but was an excellent choice.
@@frankhinkle5772 Thank you. I preferred the slimmer grips on the M39 to the double stack M59 (especially with a set of Pachmayr grips on the pistol).
Thanks for the work. Always informative and entertaining.
Pros and Cons for sure. Just make sure that whichever way you choose, train that way.
Agreed!
A very welcomed video on a seldom discussed topic. I have a "vintage" Ruger P85. It is often difficult for me to thumb up and disengage the safety on a draw. I too de-cock and holster. It helps a bit to realize that most of these firearms have an internal safety with the hammer down on a live round in the chamber. The trigger has to be fully drawn to the rear for a cam to disengage a firing pin block before the gun will fire.
Yep, I was having that discussion with someone earlier. Thanks for the comment!
Interesting video. I've heard all the arguments both ways. The only DA/SA pistols with a safety I've carried are the Walther PPK and the Beretta 84F Cheetah. Both I carried off safe.
Nice think piece today. I agree with the ready to fire crowd. Assuming a good holster which covers your trigger guard and consistent training which involves drawing your weapon, I think the risk of an accidental discharge is quite low. A lot of belt and suspenders people would disagree, that's fine, but for me the primary consideration is being ready to defend myself as quickly as possible within acceptable risks.
Chief, Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family! With the style of pistol you talked about I agree with you - de-cocked, safety off. That said, since I carried a S&W revolver for 40 years and I am used to just having to pull the trigger I transitioned to a Sig P365 for EDC. NO safety to worry about at all. The gun will NOT fire unless the trigger is pulled. I like the KISS method - and since for 40 years all I had to do is pull the trigger, I have gone forward with that same exact concept. I have witnessed a bunch of Club members and fellow toters that have inadvertently switched their safety's on and off unintentionally. Yea, they were shocked but if they had to use it in an emergency situation they would first have to figure out WHY their pistol did not go bang. After carrying for 40+ years I know there are times a safety can get flicked on or off by accident. So...... to me the best way is not to have a pistol with a safety at all. KISS method. If one carries a striker fired pistol with a round in the chamber, I would suggest and HOPE they have practiced enough to know how to handle it, holster it, and be familiar with it to avoid any potential problems. KISS. If that is too complicated - carry a revolver with no safety as most do not have them.
Thanks for a great comment! Unfortunately, I suspect there are a lot of semi-auto carrying pistoleers who would be better served by a good quality wheelgun.
I couldn't agree with you more!
Really great points made HR! Excellent video. Thanks.
Thanks Dan!
Depends on the carry gun:
1911 style/single action autoloader - Safety On, cocked & locked
DA/SA autoloader - Loaded chamber, Safety Off & de-cocked
Striker fired autoloader - Loaded chamber, Safety On
Revolver - No Worries
I'm with you I carried safety off when holster. I went to work for the Military and the Armory guy wrote me up. I argued that it was for my protection and they said we pay you and you will do it our way. The next time I got was just before I retired.
Funny thing is, conventional wisdom has it that DA/SA hammer fired guns benefit from having a safety option (perhaps) but they’re treated like a pox on striker fired guns. But on my M17, which is the only striker gun I have an external safety on, I kind of like the option of activating the thumb safety as I perform admin tasks. Just spend time with it to train but also to learn whether it’s a loose thumb safety and prone to activate itself.
Great subject to discuss and review. Thank you.
You’re welcome. Thanks for watching!
Another fine video sir. I carry a 1911 cocked and locked safety on and I’m so use to it it’s all I know and feel very safe in this condition. Recently I purchased a C Z 75 omega with the decocker and really starting to like it and getting use to it and my choices of how I wish to carry it. I like the fact of how many rounds in the C Z I can carry, but love my 1911’s. I guess I have a hard choice of what I’ll carry, but it’s A hard decision on giving up my 1911 45 acp for a 9mm. Thank you for this video and I know people are having the same decision I must make. Be safe out there H R
I personally use the safety on my with a trigger pull of 5 lbs or more only when performing tasks where time is not critical and there is no longer a threat such as holstering or unloading. However I train disengaging the safety just in case it is unintentionally engaged when I have to use my weapon in a high stress life threatening situation. Anyone that normally uses a safety on a self defense weapon better practice an awful lot and hope that practice works when their life is a stake. Thank you for a great video, keep up the good work.
You’re welcome thanks for watching!
Regardless of how you carry, if you carry a pistol with a manual safety, you should always train drawing your weapon as if the safety is on every time. This will allow for the possibility of the safety being on even if you think it is off. I have seen officers on the range draw their weapons thinking the safeties were off and fumble with it when they suddenly discover it is on during a round of training. Clearly this is not a good situation to get into.
Happy Thanksgiving!
Same to you!
Good explanation. Plenty to think about.
It's a matter of training. Make your choice and train, train, train. Glocks obviously don't have safeties and you have to be very cognizant that it doesn't take much for that firearm to go off, so you have to train to be aware of this, as accidental discharges are more frequent with this type of firearm. The flip side is if your firearm does have a manual safety, you have to be conditioned to remove it before attempting to fire. There is a famous picture of a law enforcement officer lying deceased on the floor of a grocery store with his drawn pistol on the floor next to him with the safety still engaged....
Hmm, I’ve seen a lot of photos like that, but I don’t recall ever seeing that one.
@@hrfunk I should have said infamous. I saw it in the old law enforcement textbook Street Stoppers page 322. Chilling to say the least....
good and timely post, picked up a model 39-2 several months ago
You have a great pistol there. I hope you enjoy it!
Great stuff Sir!
Thank you!
I like the added measure of the 5904/459 safety decocker. Put one in the pipe safety on.. I'm fairly certain I can flip it off and pull the trigger. I train with it, it's muscle memory second nature for me.
One department I worked for, we carried the Beretta 96 safety off.
For the generation (1st, 2nd, 3rd) of S&W pistols hrfunk covered in the video, the “safety” is a decocker first, and a safety second. Its first function is to drop a cocked hammer safely. Its second function is to disconnect the trigger from the action so that pulling the trigger does not fire the gun. A decocked hammer is also held slightly back from the firing pin by the decocker mechanism inside the slide.
These pistols have a firing pin block connected to the trigger. The firing pin has a notch that a spring-loaded plunger fits in. The plunger in pushed via a lever when the trigger is pulled allowing the hammer to push the firing pin forward striking the primer of the cartridge. This system makes the gun drop-safe and is similar to Colt’s series 80 1911.
In the 1990’s, S&W made a modified version of the 40 S&W caliber 3rd generation pistol for the California Highway Patrol (CHP). The decocker was spring loaded to return to the up position (“off safe”) when activated. This is similar to the Berretta 92G. CHP knew the gun was meant to be carried and used in a manner similar to a double-action revolver - draw, point, shoot - with no safety to activate. As hrfunk states, the long and heavy double-action trigger pull is itself part of the pistol’s safety system.
Most modern handguns are drop-safe via a mechanism to prevent inadvertent contact between the hammer and firing pin, or striker, and the cartridge’s primer. Most pistols have a firing pin or striker block; S&W uses a hammer block and Ruger uses a transfer bar on their revolvers. Some states require handguns to be drop-safe. Most rifles and shotguns are NOT drop-safe.
I still love thoise third Generation S&W autos. I wish they would bring them back in a classic line.
@@hrfunk Agree - I will not part with my 6906. Fortunately the originals are available as law enforcement trade-ins.
Another reason for the decocker was to counter the 1911’s “scary” cocked hammer i.e, cocked and locked, which in some police departments was compared to using a revolver in single-action mode. Few people know that most shotguns, rifles, and striker-fired pistols are cocked and locked.
In addition, the only method to drop a 1911 hammer was to pull the trigger while holding back the hammer, releasing the trigger, and then easing the hammer down. This task was simplified and made much safer with a flip of the decocker.
Really good points to ponder. Thank you.
You’re welcome Michael, and Happy Thanksgiving!
@@hrfunk thank you! Hope your Thanksgiving was as tasty as the one I ate. Had a rotisserie and smoked turkey dinner that I'd never had before. It was amazing. Cold smoked overnight till 7:30 AM then brought the heat up and cooked till 3:30 PM all on a pellet type smoker. Wished I'd smoked the sweet potatoes too. Try that sometime with peach wood after you cook it inside. You won't believe how good it is. Enjoy those turkey sandwiches.
Semper Fi, Cuz!
I prefer the built-in safeties in pistols like the Glocks, where there is no external safety, therefore keeping your finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire is your biggest safety.
It again is a matter of personal preference. The key is how you train with your firearm. I for example prefer to carry without a round in the chamber, safety off. Pulling the gun out and racking the slide becomes muscle memory, and that way the gun is far away from the holster (and my leg) when the round enters the chamber.
When it's not in a holster but in something like a glove box, I prefer to keep the safety engaged on my old S&W Model 39. Of course there is no guarantee it won't disengage itself, but the DA trigger is a good backup plan. I've had glove box 1911 safeties disengage more than once, which is why I no longer put them in there unless holstered.
Happy Thanksgiving Colonel!
@@hrfunk I'd like to tell everyone today to get stuffed (in a good way).
Aye, aye, Sir!
I agree with you, Mr. Funk. Just as I carry my 1911 cocked & locked.
Can I be the “My finger is the safety” guy?
"Well this is my safety, sir"👆
ruclips.net/video/Vb5quj6ZhJM/видео.html
Rabbi, I’m guessing you’re typically “that guy” in a lot of instances.
@@bencrane8505 hahahahahahahaha.
Depends on the design. Many DA/SA semi-autos have terrible ergonomics for the safety lever and/or decocker: those 1980s S&W pistols, the Star Model 30 and others. If the pistol used a transfer bar or other internal drop resistant safety, I didn't use the safety lever.
The Benelli B76 had a flawed execution of a unique and otherwise good design. The safety lever had good ergonomics so I used it. And it could be carried cocked and locked.
But the 1911-A1 types, Browning Hi-Power, Star PD, etc, cocked and locked, always. But only in an appropriate holster.
Thank You for the videos , Have a great Thanksgiving
Thanks Bob, same to you!
Da/SA handgun is 1 of my favorite to carry or have beside my bed... I know everyone has there own opinions and training but... i love this style..
Howard, I leave the thumb safety on if my firearm has one because if the exposed hammer is struck with an object it could cause an accidental discharge all the handguns I use today are Springfield Armory XD, XDM , HellCat and they do not have a thumb safety. I prefer no Thumb Safety like my SIG P226, P220, Beretta 92F, 92FC had. The Grip Safety and the safety blade in the trigger of the Springfield XD, XDM , Hell Cat is my preference. For this reason only. Those exposed hammers on firearms with the thumb safety get hit with enough force the firearm will discharge if the safety is not engaged. My advice is to carry a firearm without a thumb safety.
Beretta have firing pin safety against blows and drop and SIG Sauer P220 series also had it seems.
I would tend to use the safety, just on general principle, and I would train myself to engage and disengage it. That way, I would be able to handle the gun, and not fumble around with it, when I need it.
Thanks for the video and how you covered the subject. I've run both striker fired as well as SA automatics for years. I've always appreciated the S&W SA/DA firearms for a long time but never put much work in with them. In the last couple of years I've added a 459 and 3913 which has me learning the systems of those firearms.
Given my hand size and shape I find the 459 a bit bulkier than I care for. The 3913 is a revelation though and I qualify with it as well as I do my issued firearm which is a Glock 23. The flat narrow profile of the 3913 makes operating the safety/decocker almost as easy as operating the safety on a 1911 for me with my hand size. One of the things I like about the S&W automatics over others is the magazine disconnect for a similar reason for liking the safety/decocker.
Operating the DA/SA firearms has me learning a new skillset. I don't carry the 459 but do carry the 3913 and with that one I carry with the safety/decocker engaged.
Happy Thanksgiving.
Thank you! Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours!
Thanks, H.R.! Another great video! I still use the manual safety on occasion, when I'm carrying a pistol that comes with one, but I find myself slowly getting away from it more and more. Happy Thanksgiving and God bless, friends!
Thanks Jeff! Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours.
A good holster is an external safety measure. Always condition 1 single action. Don’t know that it’s necessary but I’ve always carried a DA revolver hammer down on an empty chamber.
I have a S&W 415, which is the bare bones version of your pistol featured in this video. I'm comfortable carrying safety off with its long dbl action pull. But, I carry concealed exclusively. I also found these older guns to be insanely accurate. I've actually reverted to DA/SA carry guns from the striker fire pistols.
You have a great pistol. It should serve you well for a long time!
Good vid, Chief.
Thanks for the video.
You’re welcome. Thanks for watching!
I actually prefer to use the safety I carry iwb 92FS at roughly 4:00 o’clock location. Good video, appreciate it 👍
You’re welcome Thomas, thanks for watching!
If I'd leave the safety off I'd be worried that it'd flick to safe rubbing against something. That is different with the big movement on your S&W. At certain CZs I ride the thumb safety anyway and with others I prefer decocker only. With H&K the LEM trigger is also an option while still keeping the decocker.
On DA/SA pistols I prefer to not have a safety, just a decocker. The only reason I haven’t swapped my 92FS to a G code is I’m unsure of my skill in doing it myself.
Hmm. If I didn’t want to keep my M9 in GI configuration, that would make a good video.
@@hrfunk if only I lived a bit closer, I know of a 92 Inox that you could experiment on. Lol
Man, I love my CZ P-07 with the the decocker on it. One of my favorite edcs.
My cz 2075 rami manual safety only engages in sa mode with the hammer back, since I pocket holster carry it, it feels safer to me to manually drop the hammer to half cock for a double action trigger pull. When the rami is at half cock, the safety cannot be engaged, which I am ok with. When I pocket carry my 45 acp m&p shield, I keep the manual safety on. Used to own a 9 mm m&p shield 1.0 with apex trigger duty and carry kit, there was no manual safety on that model so I always kydex iwb carried at 4 o’clock, appendix carry gave me pause, as did pocket carry. What you said made sense to me.
I agree with your choices based on threat levels faced by military and police situations. I like the simplicity of a revolver, and my fav semi is the 1911. For civilians I am more inclined to advise a "carry" condition based on Jeff Cooper's system.
White, Yellow, Orange, Red. (omitting USMC condition Black)
In White you are unprepared and unready to take lethal action. If you are attacked in White you will probably die unless your adversary is totally inept.
In Yellow you bring yourself to the understanding that your life may be in danger and that you may have to do something about it.
In Orange you have determined upon a specific adversary and are prepared to take action which may result in his death, but you are not in a lethal mode.
In Red you are in a lethal mode and will shoot if circumstances warrant.
Most people are capable of long periods in "Yellow" but rarely require a cocked and locked condition. If you are on a Call, or Stand To, then Orange is suitable for a more advanced carry state.
Condition 4: Chamber empty, no magazine in the gun, hammer down, safety on.
Condition 3: Chamber empty, full magazine in place, hammer down, safety on.
Condition 2: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer down, safety on.
Condition 1: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer cocked, safety on. Also referred to as "cocked and locked."
Condition 0: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer cocked, safety off.
What you advocate for a police carry is a good all round compromise. Many civilians train and practice frequently and are at a high level of competence; but quite a few fall into the mediocre level, and they should use a condition 3 for added safety.
honestly, the safety is there for a reason, it is, in my vew, just a movment of the thumb to take the safety off... one should always have it on, and acctuly train to take it off when they draw the gun, for their own safety
I have gone back to the double single action pistols. Love my PX4.
Great thread,
I would caveat that this only applies to DA/SA fire pistols, SA pistols like the 1911 should have the safety engaged and most striker fired pistols generally don't have a manual safety.
Personally I prefer DA/SA pistols for CCW because of the long trigger pull and the ability to put my thumb on the hammer when re-holstering to prevent a negligent discharge. We have all seen videos of negligent discharges from people re-holstering a striker fired pistol, I think DA/SA pistols does a good job of mitigating most of that risk. Furthermore with many people preferring IWB holsters for concealed carry (regardless of position) a negligent discharge can have life altering results..
I agree. Thanks for the comment!
Carried a third generation S&W Model 411 for the last 10+ years of my career. I carried it with the safety off...they are safe in that manner.
For DA/SA, I prefer safety off. I think one can & will develop confidence w/either method through proper training.
I agree.
I agree. As I tell students in my classes Practice practice practice.
@@tomtruesdale6901 and then practice some more!
Decocked with safety off for me. Started that with a Breretta 92FS because the mechanics of swiping the Safety off on the draw was just wrong , pushing up with the thumb instead of swiping down like a 1911. Now I have a 92 G (decock only) and don't have to think about it.
Good commentary
Thanks
You’re welcome, thanks for watching!
Depends on the gun. 1911 or CZ-75 for example are designed to be cocked and locked for carry, A Beretta M9's double action trigger is sufficiently bad that carrying the gun hammer down safety off is proper.
Just for reference, in the video I was discussing DA/SA semi-autos with a de-cocker/safety.
Love the new intro👍😇
Thank you!
I use double/single actions and I train and carry with safety on. I like the added secure feel but that is just me.
That's a tough call. I carry a Sig SAS EDC, it has no manual safety on it. So it gets one in the chamber and goes in a kydex holster at the 4 o'clock position. If I Cary it in my pocket no round goes in the chamber. I know it's counter productive, but that's just my comfort level. My Beretta m9 has one in the chamber and safety on. Because that's how I train with it. Drawing and flipping the safety off is one motion. I use my joint of my thumb to disengage it. So it's no problem and I don't have to adjust my grip it's a natural move. My clock 21 has one in the chamber and also goes in a holster for a little external protection of the trigger. I don't know what is right or wrong this is just what I'm comfortable doing. All I know is I feel better having one and not needing it than needing one and not having it.
😁 sorry I don't have a clock 21😁 it's a glock😕
As a civilian that live in a tropical and humid place, AIWB is the most concealable and convenient method of carry. As sush, personally, O refuse to carry any semiauto that it's not ether a double action or has a manual safety. But that's just me.
I think it's personal preference unless the pistol has no safety or has a decocker only. Since many of us have multiple pistols that we carry for different situations, some with and some without external safeties, I think it's better to carry with the safety off so that one doesn't forget to disengage it in a deadly force encounter, which could get you killed.
Either way is fine, because the True safety is between the ears. 👍🏻
I carried a Beretta 92FS 9MM as a duty weapon and had the safety off after decocking the handgun, so it was a draw and shoot without a safety to disengage. Now I have no problem with either system as I carry a 1911 a LOT so am use to sweeping the safety as I draw, but that is a more natural motion than say a Beretta 92FS or S&W DA/SA pistol. (Used them both). The CZ75D Compact, SIG P226 as examples have decock but no manual safety to engage and both are excellent handguns, no one seems to have issues carrying these with a round in the chamber for personal defense. I DO seem to use the safety when carrying smaller pocket guns like the Walther PP/PPK series or even the neat Sauer 38H. I mess with these weapons so much that it has been automatic for me to draw and disengage a safety even in the smaller weapons (size). I think it depends on what the person is comfortable with and will TRAIN with that is the key here both work for a person with the skill to use these in either mode. Probably is no real right answer just personal preferences. (I know the tactical reasons for this, if your weapon is snatched etc. but also a S&W for instance if you drop the magazine but touch the face of the trigger, it will go BOOM if the slightest pressure is maintained...possibly a good follow-up for those who are unfamiliar with this coinciding with the safety on-off carry?) Have a wonderful Thanksgiving to you and the family. Stay warm (COLD here in Florida was down to 48 last night, no worries will warm to mid 70's today)
Thanks Sergeant Major, Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours as well!
Interesting discussion topic. I'm not a big fan of slide mounted safeties, for the reasons you mentioned. On a DA/SA pistol I'm very comfortable with the long DA pull being my safety. Prior to switching to Sig P320, I carried a P226 for years. That DA first trigger pull was longer and heavier than the Colt revolver I carried before it. Even though it's not the primary topic of discussion, I'll add that I'm not as comfortable with carrying a striker fired pistol, like the P320 without the manual safety engaged. I swapped FCUs between my M17 and RXP X-compact to have that manual safety in my EDC pistol to prevent that relatively light trigger from actuating inadvertently.
One of the things Glock does very well is their striker system. When it's at rest, the spring doesn't store enough force to ignite the primer if the striker safety fails. The striker is "cocked" to full spring tension as the trigger is pulled, just prior to the sear releasing the striker. It might be an interesting video topic to compare the relative amount of force stored in the striker spring/assembly when at rest in a variety of common striker-fired pistols. Thank you for the very interesting video!
That would be interesting. I’m thinking about how to actually carry out such a test.
@@hrfunk I think much of it would have to rely on functional design description from the manufacturer. I'm not sure hot it could be independently tested.
I'm in the camp of "if it has a safety, I use it". My preferences are revolver first, DA/SA semiautomatic second, and 1911 third. I can hear it now - "1911 in third????" Yes. Primarily because it has never felt comfortable in my hand. Never. Can I shoot it? Yes. Do I understand it? Yes. Can I keep it on target? Yes. Do I like the available calibers? Yes. But in spite of everything, it has never felt comfortable in my hand. And the revolver is in first because that's what I cut my eye teeth on. I guess it's similar to never forgetting your first love.
I understand your comments about the 1911 completely. I would make the exact same statement myself, but I would substitute Glock for 1911.
@@hrfunk - 😊 👍
Whichever method is used, the carrier needs to use it consistently so that when stressed, good ol' muscle memory will save the day. Everyone should try different methods and then decide which suits their needs best. But once you've chosen, stick with it.
My agency used Sig DA/SA models years ago and I used the same carry method you prefer. We later moved to Glocks and just before I retired, they decided to go back to Sigs again.
It never ceases to amaze me how agencies will decide to spend money to fix non-existent problems...
Whatever,... it's just money!
On DA/SA pistols safety off round in the chamber hammer down. However these days I carry a M&P instead of a 915 so just round in the chamber.
All my semi auto pistols have safeties, except for a couple of DAO 3rd gen guns. Only problem with carrying safety off is if the safety gets bumped to “on” and you weren’t aware. You now have a gun that won’t fire when you want it to. I’ve retired my 3rd gen’s with safeties and my Beretta 92’s, to range use only. My carry guns all have safeties, although they are now frame mounted down to fire. If you’re going to carry a gun with a safety, you should practice flipping it off on the draw, even if you carry it safety off.
I've got to say, in all the years I've carried handguns like that, I've never had a safety get bumped on.
@@hrfunk me neither. Some are easier than others. Beretta 92 safety is spring loaded. Moved much easier than a 3rd Gen.
Off unless your carrying something like a 1911 cocked then you want it locked. Hence the phrase cocked and locked.
I have several handguns with the Beretta 92FS style safety/decocker. (92A1, Cougar 8000, Bersa Thunder, etc.) The ergonomics allow me to disengage the safety with a flick of the thumb as I draw. On other DA/SA handguns (including 92FS clones) the safety is not as ergonomic -- it does not lend itself to a fluid movement of the thumb.
Carrying a handgun with the safety off begs the question: What if the safety somehow were to become engaged? Shouldn't your muscle memory train to always disengage the safety (even it's normally off) when you draw?
Others have made that same point. Personally, I’m comfortable carrying with the safety off. In all the years I’ve carried pistols with that trigger/safety, I’ve never had the safety accidentally engage on its own.
I carry my Beretta 92FS or my CZ 75B decocked with the safety off. The double-action trigger is heavy enough for safety. My 1911 goes cocked and locked. For me, it's a question of how much pressure and how much travel is required to fire the pistol.
Of course, Glocks have a light and squishy trigger with no safety--nope, that dingus on the trigger doesn't qualify--and things work out well enough for most users.
Excellent reasoning and logic! I also carry with the Safety OFF on DA/SA handguns.
Yes, DA/SA Handguns are making a bit of a comeback and I don't think they ever went away.
They just got less attention. Happy Thanksgiving!
Happy Thanksgiving to you!
This is a moot point for me because I only have one pistol with a safety/decocker and it's too big to carry concealed. Both of my carry guns are SA striker fired without safeties and I carry them with a round in the chamber. I deal with this by practicing daily for half an hour This way I can stay proficient with drawing and presenting at all times and with different clothing options. If you don't practice regularly it won't matter how you carry, you won't be able to effectively draw and present the weapon under stress if heaven forbid, thee need should arise. This applies no matter what type of firearm you carry. Practice is an absolute necessity. Just make sure you do it safely.
I prefer safety on, for the reasons that you mention but also because if it's always on, it can't be on accidentally. You need to train to disengage it all the time so if you are going to do that, you might as well leave it engaged all the time. That said, I usually carry DAOs.
Thanks Jasper. Others below have echo the same sentiment.
I went through the academy with a revolver, so shooting well with a DOA is no problem.
I can see one advantage to leaving the safety/decocker on that wasn’t mentioned. If you have a 1911 style pistol you carry as well as a traditional double action pistol the manual of arms may be the same IF the direction of movement is the same. As such there would not be a “do I move the safety” when you transition between guns.
For most DA/SA models (at least the ones that come readily to mind) the safety/de-cocker moves opposite to that of the 1911 safety.
@@hrfunk that was what I feared