@@mcninja6592 glad to know I wasn't the only one who was hit wrong when he mentioned Sonic Origins rather than the mobile version, of which the Origins version is a port of
I was the artist who created Hidden Palace Zone and Oil Ocean Zone. I don't know if anyone was as excited as I was to have HPZ finally included in an official release of Sonic!! Yasushi Yamaguchi was the lead enviroment artist on Sonic 2. He was a machine (and pretty much lived at the office) and very critical of his own work. He must have completely reworked Chemical Plant Zone at least three times, when to my eye, his first version was beautiful! I have vague memories of playing the game with the kick-back, and yeah, it was not fun. There are always lots of things that sound like fun on paper, but suck when you actually are able to implement them!!
Nice one! Oil Ocean Zone was my favourite as a kid due to the vibrant colours, cool elevators, slippery slopes and overall very different feel it has to the rest of the zones! The sound the that the oil burners/exhausts made when they shot you up in the air is still living rent free in my head.
Ever since origins released people like to ignore big ports of sonic 1 & 2, CD is the exception. Kinda makes me wish they never made origins in the first place.
@@Sauceyjames You only had 30 seconds and nothing in the prototype alludes to the Spin Dash. Plus, it was the first time the Spin Dash was ever in anything.
@pojr , Probably because if the animation is more smoother ,it has more frames and thus more storage , they probably redid it to save space in the cartridge.
I wish Wood Zone had made it into the final game. I'm glad they restored Hidden Palace in Origins. The desert stage got reused in Mania so there's that. Funny how a couple of the prototype zone names got reused later like Neo Green Hill in Sonic Advance and Dust Hill in Sonic Lost World.
They didn't restore it in Origins They restored it in the Sonic 2 Mobile remake that came out over a decade ago Sonic Origins is just a port of that remake
Coming across the original Sonic 2 Beta online in the early 2000s was something else, so many levels were cut from the final that were present in that beta version that it was just mind blowing at the time. I don't think any other prototype has had the same impact that one had in the early days of the internet.
These sorts of things are pretty common in the high stakes console world, where very tight release schedules sometimes limit what can be included in a game. Some ideas have to be abandoned because there simply isn't enough time to implement them. No doubt Sega programmers were feeling the heat as the release date for Sonic 2 was approaching and they still have to debug, play test and manufacture the cartridges. Better to release a solid smaller game than a larger buggy game, especially in an age where ROM updates were not possible and the internet didn't exist yet.
Ur factually wrong Internet did exist but it wasn't accessible to the world only for business and corporations to develop it to create the web & OSes thanks to Terminal Internet was just a binary code program until 1983 then became terminal wth graphics until early 90s then further developped to create web and networks until late 90s for the web and internet to rise in the early 2000s .
@@iwanttocomplain I've never owned a Genesis (I was a SNES nerd) but I imagine the original intention for the game was way too ambitious for the amount of time they had to develop it, so they had to eventually cut out whole areas and even levels to get it out in time. That's one thing that's great about the modern homebrew scene: They are not hampered by release dates or any time pressures. They can take their time and get it exactly the way they want before releasing it. Some of these homebrews have been 3 or more years in the making.
@@JustWasted3HoursHere it's a shame STI never got to be a proper studio under Kalinski or more accurately Mark Cerny. Comix Zone and The Ooze show they have talent but just not quite finished. Those games are so creative and inventive but only 90% finished which I find disappointing as in those two games, STI found it's voice. It was Kalinski and Cerny's job to do everything wrong at all times and come up with garbage that is Sonic 2. All you have to do is press down+a then let go straight away and just make your way through the boring game like that just looking at him roll along. I was playing S2 last night finding bugs and being utterly depressed remembering the crushing disappointment this game was by adding nothing new and just rolling back the design idea of combined momentum for the reward f seeing what you did. Not any more. Now he spins on a different axis, visually...! But of course if you slow down he just drops off it. That adds nothing but takes something away instead. Less control now. He needs to be in the right place, at the right time, standing still, 0mph, to make the game like you. OK now watch the screen move for a bit. It's only a minutes, trust.
I remember seeing the prototype title screen on a holographic trading card back in the 90's, I didn't think much of it, I assumed it was new/alternate art made for the cards. 10:36 - ...I've NEVER heard anyone call it "Metro Pollus" Zone
@@pojr My guess is that it had to do with responsiveness/framerate issues - dropping frames from an animation makes it feel snappier, because our brains fill in the missing "info" anyway. Even if the movement doesn't change whatsoever, that perception makes Sonic feel like he's reacting to the input quicker.
Fun fact, Sonic 2 was developed in only 9 months. The game had almost 50 bug testers. That's more than twice the size of most dev teams that worked on any Sonic game. Despite this, Sonic 2 wasn't a fully playable game till two days before completion.
In the Nick Arcade prototype, the reason why you get pink-screened at Final Zone was because, going further will trigger the Egg Crusher boss fight, however since the Egg Crusher's data was stripped from the game, and since the game couldn't find it, this will cause a runtime error and crash the game. Also, correction about Hidden Palace Zone. Hidden Palace Zone was first officially introduced in the 2013 mobile remaster by Christian Whitehead. This was accessed by falling down a pit that takes you there which originally was an inescapable pit of spikes in the original Sega Genesis game. Sonic Origins's source code for Sonic 2 came from the 2013 remaster game, just like Sonic 1, and Sonic CD which received a 2011 remaster. The idea of visiting the Hidden Palace Zone for the Chaos Emeralds was revisited in Sonic 3 and Knuckles, where once you have both cartridges together, you can access the Hidden Palace Zone via super rings in order to get the Super Emeralds to become Hyper Sonic.
Bumping into the wall was likely made specifically for the Nick Arcade version, because I don't see anyone at Sega during this period thinking that was a good idea for the final game. They were on a time limit and whatnot, so anything to make it more difficult to get X amount of rings
how sure are we in using the term of a ‘rom hack’ as a development process? I would find it very odd that it would be rom hack if sega has all access to sonic 1 source code. It isn’t uncommon for game developers to build sequels using the prior game’s finished project as a starting point, and I would never consider that kind of development process as a rom hack.
Did you try the debug code when you played it? I’m curious whether or not that was available in those prototypes considering the level select was. And did you use the 19,65,09,17 level select or was there a different way to access it?
The level select code in both prototypes are the same, but you put in a button combination on the title screen. You don't have to use the sound test. Debug mode is in both prototypes as well, but I didn't use them.
I'm sorry. I was a kid who played all the genesis-era Sonic games as they were released and the notion that 2 is the best is just baffling to me. S3K is by far the superior game IMO.
I remember these prototypes.. It was fun just to mess around with them and we eventually got several rom hacks based on them. Eventually some of said Rom Hackers made their own studio and were licensed by Sega to make official ports of Sonic 1 & 2 to Phones as well as CD to basically all systems, in the Sonic 2 remake Hidden Palace was a hidden zone you could access via the death pit in Mystic Cave Act 2. Then Sonic Mania came to exist. Funny how Sega actually joined forces with rom hackers to make better games, instead of whatever Nintendo is doing.
@@tchomsdaguy For some yes, but I can def say that is not the case with games like Pokemon where they strike many fangames and rom hacks and produce garbage in comparison to some of those games. I am more talking in terms of how nintendo doesnt have respect for the very fans of franchises they enjoy.
For anyone thinking the knock-back mechanic wouldn't be bad in the final version... Just think about going through all those loops on Chemical Plant for example, which are MEANT to go through fast, and then all of a sudden knock-back mechanic here and there slows you down. That would've been TERRIBLE for the oficial release.
Funnily enough, the "knockback" feature was implemented into a Sonic game many years later: The Wii/PS2 version of Sonic Unleashed. I think it works better in a game like that one, mostly because A) It punishes you for running and boosting mindlessly into walls, and B) It's hilarious when Sonic boosts into a wall and falls like a cartoon character.
Hiden palace is not only in Sonic Origins, it was also included in mobile port, in the death pit there is no longer spikes, the pit extends and player falls in Hiden Palace Zone
6:36 The reason why the game crashes in Final Zone is because when you try to progress, the game will try to access the Sonic 1 Final Zone data which is not there.
Only Genesis game I can recall that has the character getting flung away by the recoil of running into a wall was Desert Demolition, and only as the Coyote, who also banged his head against low ceilings, was tossed around by spikes and pancaked on taking fall damage. Meanwhile the playable Road Runner was immune to petty mishaps for obvious reasons.
Pet peeve: they should not be called “prototypes”. They should be referred to as “builds”. Regarding the image in the manual: Sega was aiming for a worldwide release on November 11, 1993. Therefore, the packaging and manual would have to be done mid development with whatever assets the devs had on hand so there would be enough time to print the millions of copies required.
Great video! It would seem to me that the available "Nick Arcade" prototype is not the same build they used on the show, because Tails doesn't appear to be included. As you mentioned, it's possible to lose Tails in these builds. However, we see footage of the players right at the beginning of a level, (such as at 2:47) and there's no sign of Tails.
@budgetcoinhunter oh, thanks. That's interesting. I wonder if the developers preferred it that way, or if it was a decision made with the TV show in mind.
Hey so quick tip for these beta versions you could actually enable debug mode by pressing c,c Up down+4 and Up again! Pressing that should make you hear the ring sound so start a level hold down a button and you should have the debug mode. After that pause and press a and then press a and start on the title screen. Doing this you should allow you to have debug mode in the prototype version allowing you to explore more! (Works for all prototypes I hope this is helpful!)
Before the launch of Sonic 2, an issue of a games magazine in the UK had a VHS that had some Sonic 2 footage of one of these earlier versions. Not sure which version exactly, but it did have some visible differences from the released version such as the older title screen. I think some of the stage names might have been different too, but I might be misremembering after all these years. Off the top of my head, it had some footage from Emerald Hill Zone, Chemical Plant and Hilltop Zone. I think the games magazine was called Mean Machines.
You need to understand the point of prototypes. Its unlikely that such a feature would of remained after negative feedback. Game devs go through many many builds or prototypes, testing and tossing ideas until its finally decided what stays and what doesnt
Hidden Palace was actually added to more future ports like mobile and origins. And Sand Shower was scrapped but then came back as Mirage Saloon in Sonic Mania. It is also confirmed that Mirage Saloon is on West Side Island because you get launched into Oil Ocean by one of those gun launchers. Good to know that they didn’t completely get rid of these zones!
I remember watching a YT video that details the wall bouncing. When I played one of the prototypes, I hated it. I'm glad it wasn't in the final release
Knock-back could be nice actually if the effect still allows you to control Sonic => imagine a reduced bounce and that you can still do some things, so you could use the bounce speed to your advantage, like run the other direction without starting from speed 0.
Fun fact: if you go into the sonic 2 mobile port, go into mystic cave zone (act 2), one of the pits before the boss brings u to hidden palace zone I found it out myself cuz i sucked
Hidden Palace appeared in the moblie games in 2011, and you can go to Proto Palace which is the unfinshed product of Hidden Palace. You can go down the death pit in mystic cave to be lead to Hidden Palace. Also liked the video.
Original level Order from concept arts: Present Time: Green Hill Zone (Early Emerald Hill Zone) Ocean Wind Zone (Cut Zone) Woods Zone (Early Wood Zone) (Cut Zone) Sand Shower Zone (Desert Zone from magazines) (Cut Zone) Metropolis Zone Warp Point (Cutscene) Ancient Time: Tropical Plant/Tropical Sun Zone (Cut Zone) Hill Top Zone Blue Lake/Blue Ocean Zone (Cut Zone) Olimpus (Early Hidden Palace Zone) (Cut Zone) (Secret Zone) Rock World Zone (Cut Zone) (Winter version of Sand Shower Zone) Warp Point? (I don't know) (Cutscene) Ruined Present Time: Rock World Zone (Again,maybe a ruined version?) Oil Ocean Zone Dust Hill Zone (Early Mystic Cave Zone) Olimpus (Cutscene Version) Death Egg Zone Ancient Time After Big Tsunami: Hill Top Zone (Again) Blue Lake/Blue Ocean Zone (Again) Tropical Summer Zone (Cut Zone) Olimpus (Cutscene Version) Future Time: Casino Night Zone Chemical Plant Zone Genocide City/Cyber City Zone (Cut Zone) Olimpus? (Cutscene Version) Return To Ancient Time: Fire Mountain/Volcano Zone (Cut Zone) (Later replaced by Neo Green Hill Zone) Neo Death Egg Zone (Cut Zone) Note:Sonic The Hedgehog 2 was supposed to have time travel
Rock World Zone may have been a transition zone to the present, hence why the maps show it in two places. Olympus wasn't a zone. It may have evolved into Hidden Palace Zone based on its placement, however.
Corrections The reason there's two rock worlds in past and ruined present concept arts is because the past was the 1st plan before being moved to the ruined present. Also the tsunami thing was cut before the time travel was cut so it would be blue ocean then hill top before chemical plant That would mean in the ancient time it would just be tropical plant before going to the ruined present. Also tropical summer is an earlier name and they're the same zone Olympus would come after dust hill to travel into the ancient time again because metropolis aka the warp point was ruined. How the Olympus do that is because it's referenced as the 2nd warp point. It would appear I believe on the same spot as the ancient time concept art
The missing title screen in the manual became the title game for Sonic 2 on the Game Gear, though they flipped Sonic and Tails, and had Sonic show two fingers instead of a thumbs up.
The prototype's title screen is different because it is based off the Sonic 2 title screen for the Master System/Game Gear version, which actually came out before the genesis version. Surprised that was not brought up in Cybershell's video too.
I remember the Simon Wai beta well. 20 years ago when I started to go to Internet cafes because we didn't yet had fast Internet at home, I looked up ROM sides because very young me didn't know better at the time that this was actually illegal stuff. Anyhow, finding any ROMs was rather difficult and I wanted to play Sonic 2 badly on my PC. This beta was the only Sonic 2 ROM I could find for the longest time. It bored me rather quickly back then too but these days, I can quite appreciate beta ROMs and find enjoyment in them.
So at some point they probably realized that the best solution for Tails was just to make him immortal, and because of that they had to remove him from the final battle so people wouldn't abuse it.
Honestly I wish we got Sand Shower Zone, because it seems like the inspiration for Mirage Saloon Zone. Given how I love the music in the series, I always get sad thinking about what music could have been, but was either never started because the zone was scrapped, or was canceled part way through the music being composed.
What I want to know is why they didnt even attempt to implement Tails' flight when hes playable in ANY version of Sonic 2 prior to the Taxman rerelease and on. Theres no point to playing as him in the original release outside of novelty: he plays EXACTLY the same as Sonic. Out of all the behind the scenes stuff dug up for Sonic 2, none of the original dev team have given any explanation for this.
I think Sega really nailed the pacing on Sonic 2. The levels aren't too long and there are only two acts. Some of the levels get a little disorientating like Oil Ocean Zone but it's kept to a minimum. The sequels after this weren't designed to necessarily be played front to back in one sitting so they got a little more bloated.
Die hard Sonic fans have played all of the cut zones, as well as Hidden Palace Zone before the Christian Whitehead Remaster on Mobile, which did feature Hidden Palace Zone (if you fell in the spike pit in Mystic Cave). Sonic 2 Long Version was a ROM Hack that had Wood Zone, Genocide City zone, Dust hill zone, and Hidden Palace Zone, although it wasn't the most polished versions, but playable.
Is the debug mode available in the early prototypes? If so, it may be interesting to explore the levels that end up blocking you from progressing further.
I actually liked the sprites they cut out. It seems to give sonic more 'life' instead of his constant static side profile (aside the standing around sprite but thats about it). Also, I'm surprised there was no mention of debug mode where you can get to the places where you had no access to. Was debug mode not available during prototype?? I'd be very surprise if that were the case!
I don't know why, but I was expecting some creepy pasta stuff to happen or something. With the music and narration, it just felt like a creepy pasta story.
It was so frustrating being a kid that was into video games watching random kids who never picked a controller up try and do the most basic stuff as a "challenge".
This is the game that caused the issues with Sega of America and Sega of Japan, these issues will ultimately lead Sega to bow out of the console race with the Dreamcast
I always took their *real* falling out of sync to be the 32X. There were plenty of bad signs before that though, that's just where it was like... everything before that I could write off as professional. Sega of Japan's handling of 32X was malicious *and* self-destructive.
I like the knockback mechanicm because it keeps the game moving, which makes it more fun and alive. Stopping at a wall takes the speed out of the game., it is always such a fun buster
I don’t think the nick arcade version was planned to ever release. It probably also added the bounce back for the show so that kids don’t slam into a wall in real life
I remember being in KayBee toys in the early 90s and playing a Sonic game. I think it was 1. and the idle animation, when you don't hit anything and Sonic gets impatient, he actually gets outy a yo-yo and starts playing with it. I never saw him do that in any other release of Sonic 1.
Imagine that in an alternative universe, you’re doing a speed-run for sonic 2 and everything is going great, you didn’t die, you’re minutes away from beating the world record but Sega kept the wall bump mechanics, and then you crash into a wall in metropolis and now you fucked up the run
The knockback mechanic would've been terrible, but implementing something similar for when you get stuck in a wall would've been better than just calling it "one of Dr. Robotnik's diabolical traps" in the manual.
Some parts of the level art for Hidden Palace Zone got re-used in a stage of Sonic Spinball, I'm pretty sure. So it at least didn't *completely* go to waste.
Hilariously, the feature of Sonic being knocked back by running into a wall at full speed did resurface in Sonic Unleashed! The Wii and PS2 versions, to be exact. If you boosted into a wall, Sonic would cartoonishly flatten against the wall like a pancake, fall to the ground (still flattened), then return to normal after a second. It only happened if you were boosting and there was no risk of being sent backward into a hazard, so it was more funny than frustrating.
I could've sworn Sonic Heroes also had that as a feature, if you ran into a wall with enough speed, the character would just fall to the ground stunned for a bit before getting back up
the music in sonic 2 is based on music composed by masato nakamura, you can hear the pre console music called "masa's demos" they are slower in tempo for unknown reasons, the game versions have more changes from the pre console versions the early build music from simon wai sounds closer to the original demos
Emerald hill zone, chemical plant and hilltop zone might be the oldest maps in the game and oil ocean and airship might be the newest with casino night in the middle
Honestly, the knockback mechanic, if toned down, limited to when not spinning, and canceled when running into something pushable, would have been potentially fun, adding just a little bit more of a challenge to speedruns.
Instead of the knock back, it would have been a neat touch if they just played the sound of a crash and maybe did a little screenshake. That would have fit the vibe of the time.
![[#2024MAMA] G-DRAGON - 무제(Untitled, 2014)+POWER+HOME SWEET HOME+뱅뱅뱅+FANTASTIC BABY | Mnet 241123 방송](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Ox29z5Nf1Uk/mqdefault.jpg)
That knock-back mechanic would have ruined the game. Cool to see a feature that was explored, tested, and cut for the right reasons.
no it wouldn't have ruined it at all.
pizza tower has that too and the game is perfectly fine with it included.
@Boomrainbownuke9608 just because one game does it well doesn't mean that it wouldn't ruin another game
@@Boomrainbownuke9608yeah, this is kinda a based take
People would find other ways to avoid it. Just like in Sonic Unwiished.
@@theoneandonly-qs1uwyeah, this is kinda a based take
11:49 Slight correction: This stage remake originated from the 2013 Mobile version of Sonic 2, which is what versions Origins is using.
i was kinda annoyed when he said that
@@mcninja6592 Same
he needs to do better with his research, otherwise imma unsub
@@mcninja6592real
@@mcninja6592 glad to know I wasn't the only one who was hit wrong when he mentioned Sonic Origins rather than the mobile version, of which the Origins version is a port of
I was the artist who created Hidden Palace Zone and Oil Ocean Zone. I don't know if anyone was as excited as I was to have HPZ finally included in an official release of Sonic!!
Yasushi Yamaguchi was the lead enviroment artist on Sonic 2. He was a machine (and pretty much lived at the office) and very critical of his own work. He must have completely reworked Chemical Plant Zone at least three times, when to my eye, his first version was beautiful!
I have vague memories of playing the game with the kick-back, and yeah, it was not fun. There are always lots of things that sound like fun on paper, but suck when you actually are able to implement them!!
Thank you for your work and your recollection! Do you recall how late in development Hidden Palace Zone was cut from Sonic 2?
Nice one! Oil Ocean Zone was my favourite as a kid due to the vibrant colours, cool elevators, slippery slopes and overall very different feel it has to the rest of the zones! The sound the that the oil burners/exhausts made when they shot you up in the air is still living rent free in my head.
Wow it's an honor to get to discuss the development of Sonic2 over the internet with you sir ! Best of wishes
Crazy, you formed my childhood
Thanks, without you guys I don't think this franchise would be nearly as good!
"Finally though Hidden Palace was Included in Sonic Origins!"
Sonic 2 Mobile Port : *am i a joke to you?*
Sonic Origins is pretty much the mobile ports made by Taxmann, so it's kinda giving it credit?
Ever since origins released people like to ignore big ports of sonic 1 & 2, CD is the exception. Kinda makes me wish they never made origins in the first place.
Lol true. I would have mentioned that.
@@bingobo2551 the mobile versions are riddled with ads. Better to direct people to Origins.
@@suroguner your saying this as if you can’t pay $2. And before you say but you can’t pair a controller you can it’s an option.
I was always screaming at those kids on Nick's Arcade that they are playing the games wrong!
Blud didn't know that spin dash existed
@@SnuggleBear_80sThe game wasn't even out yet at the time
@@SonicTheCutehogno excuse, I would have found out
@@Sauceyjames You only had 30 seconds and nothing in the prototype alludes to the Spin Dash. Plus, it was the first time the Spin Dash was ever in anything.
The rumor was that they purposely only chose kids who didn't play video games to be on the show so they could be stingy with prizes.
the hidden palace zone actually made it into the sonic 2 remake for mobile.
Nice. Shame Sonic 3 Remake never happened (not a fan of Sonic Origins 🤢).
Yup, I heard it was rebuilt with a new layout right?
Came here to mention this - the mobile version of Sonic 2 from 2013 is the first official version with hidden palace
bro thinks he's a genius
@@some_body_else3636 did he say he’s a genius..?
I remember helping to contribute to the Nick Arcade Sonic 2 purchase. Best $300 I ever spent, ngl
You did?
@@LocalAitch cool
Big ups to you, LocalH! I’ve browsed the Simon Wai Beta Forums and Sonic Retro over the years and knew I recognized your name. Big thanks!!
Prototype Sonic 2 looks so cute and adorable.
sad boi
The sprite does look well animated. I wonder why they redid it.
@@pojrIt looks very weird and non expressive
@pojr , Probably because if the animation is more smoother ,it has more frames and thus more storage , they probably redid it to save space in the cartridge.
And it mainly is a SLIGHT recolor of Sonic 1’s sprite
I wish Wood Zone had made it into the final game. I'm glad they restored Hidden Palace in Origins. The desert stage got reused in Mania so there's that. Funny how a couple of the prototype zone names got reused later like Neo Green Hill in Sonic Advance and Dust Hill in Sonic Lost World.
They didn't restore it in Origins
They restored it in the Sonic 2 Mobile remake that came out over a decade ago
Sonic Origins is just a port of that remake
Neo green hill was also used in sonic pocket adventure
I do wonder how the final product of Wood Zone would have looked. I didn't love the art style of it, but maybe it would have been done.
Coming across the original Sonic 2 Beta online in the early 2000s was something else, so many levels were cut from the final that were present in that beta version that it was just mind blowing at the time. I don't think any other prototype has had the same impact that one had in the early days of the internet.
These sorts of things are pretty common in the high stakes console world, where very tight release schedules sometimes limit what can be included in a game. Some ideas have to be abandoned because there simply isn't enough time to implement them. No doubt Sega programmers were feeling the heat as the release date for Sonic 2 was approaching and they still have to debug, play test and manufacture the cartridges. Better to release a solid smaller game than a larger buggy game, especially in an age where ROM updates were not possible and the internet didn't exist yet.
Ur factually wrong Internet did exist but it wasn't accessible to the world only for business and corporations to develop it to create the web & OSes thanks to Terminal
Internet was just a binary code program until 1983 then became terminal wth graphics until early 90s then further developped to create web and networks until late 90s for the web and internet to rise in the early 2000s .
@@Darkparadox64 Not very useful to the average gamer if they can't access it, right chief?
This game is criminally short.
@@iwanttocomplain I've never owned a Genesis (I was a SNES nerd) but I imagine the original intention for the game was way too ambitious for the amount of time they had to develop it, so they had to eventually cut out whole areas and even levels to get it out in time. That's one thing that's great about the modern homebrew scene: They are not hampered by release dates or any time pressures. They can take their time and get it exactly the way they want before releasing it. Some of these homebrews have been 3 or more years in the making.
@@JustWasted3HoursHere it's a shame STI never got to be a proper studio under Kalinski or more accurately Mark Cerny. Comix Zone and The Ooze show they have talent but just not quite finished. Those games are so creative and inventive but only 90% finished which I find disappointing as in those two games, STI found it's voice.
It was Kalinski and Cerny's job to do everything wrong at all times and come up with garbage that is Sonic 2.
All you have to do is press down+a then let go straight away and just make your way through the boring game like that just looking at him roll along.
I was playing S2 last night finding bugs and being utterly depressed remembering the crushing disappointment this game was by adding nothing new and just rolling back the design idea of combined momentum for the reward f seeing what you did.
Not any more. Now he spins on a different axis, visually...! But of course if you slow down he just drops off it. That adds nothing but takes something away instead.
Less control now. He needs to be in the right place, at the right time, standing still, 0mph, to make the game like you.
OK now watch the screen move for a bit. It's only a minutes, trust.
Man, I haven't seen Nick Arcade in close to 30 years. What a blast of nostalgia
This show used to come on way in the morning time like 5 or 6 not sure. I haven't watched this show maybe around the same time you haven't.
I remember seeing the prototype title screen on a holographic trading card back in the 90's, I didn't think much of it, I assumed it was new/alternate art made for the cards.
10:36 - ...I've NEVER heard anyone call it "Metro Pollus" Zone
He is a troll.
Metro Trollus Zone
That's like calling Hydrocity Zone "Hydro City" 💀
It's "HyDRAWcity"
Debug mode, man! Use debug mode!
Yea I'm saying that as well lol
Maybe back then debug mode didnt even exist?
@@Amakqait did
I know everyone Sonic fan knows debug mode or at least heard about it….it was kinda frustrating he didn’t use debug mode ☹️☹️
EXACTLY MY THOUGHTS
very suprising that the sonic 2 prototype running sprites were actually way smoother than the ones we got
Yeah, the walking animation has more frames. I wonder why they changed it.
@@pojr My guess is that it had to do with responsiveness/framerate issues - dropping frames from an animation makes it feel snappier, because our brains fill in the missing "info" anyway. Even if the movement doesn't change whatsoever, that perception makes Sonic feel like he's reacting to the input quicker.
Not gonna lie, I kinda wish Sonic still had that cool sliding-stop animation from 8:50 . Looks so much better than the final version.
At least the first half of the animation made it into Mania
i like it too
Fun fact, Sonic 2 was developed in only 9 months. The game had almost 50 bug testers. That's more than twice the size of most dev teams that worked on any Sonic game. Despite this, Sonic 2 wasn't a fully playable game till two days before completion.
Imagine that. One of the best games ever made was created in 9 fuckin months. I commend the dev team.
In the Nick Arcade prototype, the reason why you get pink-screened at Final Zone was because, going further will trigger the Egg Crusher boss fight, however since the Egg Crusher's data was stripped from the game, and since the game couldn't find it, this will cause a runtime error and crash the game. Also, correction about Hidden Palace Zone. Hidden Palace Zone was first officially introduced in the 2013 mobile remaster by Christian Whitehead. This was accessed by falling down a pit that takes you there which originally was an inescapable pit of spikes in the original Sega Genesis game. Sonic Origins's source code for Sonic 2 came from the 2013 remaster game, just like Sonic 1, and Sonic CD which received a 2011 remaster. The idea of visiting the Hidden Palace Zone for the Chaos Emeralds was revisited in Sonic 3 and Knuckles, where once you have both cartridges together, you can access the Hidden Palace Zone via super rings in order to get the Super Emeralds to become Hyper Sonic.
Bumping into the wall was likely made specifically for the Nick Arcade version, because I don't see anyone at Sega during this period thinking that was a good idea for the final game. They were on a time limit and whatnot, so anything to make it more difficult to get X amount of rings
Good point. They might have done it to make the challenge harder.
how sure are we in using the term of a ‘rom hack’ as a development process? I would find it very odd that it would be rom hack if sega has all access to sonic 1 source code. It isn’t uncommon for game developers to build sequels using the prior game’s finished project as a starting point, and I would never consider that kind of development process as a rom hack.
I think I remember hearing that Mirage Saloon Zone in Sonic Mania was inspired by the scrapped Sand Shower Zone from the Sonic 2 prototypes
Really cool that they found a way to bring back an old zone in a new way.
Not really, it was inspired by a cut dessert level from sonic cd
Did you try the debug code when you played it? I’m curious whether or not that was available in those prototypes considering the level select was. And did you use the 19,65,09,17 level select or was there a different way to access it?
The level select code in both prototypes are the same, but you put in a button combination on the title screen. You don't have to use the sound test. Debug mode is in both prototypes as well, but I didn't use them.
I'm sorry. I was a kid who played all the genesis-era Sonic games as they were released and the notion that 2 is the best is just baffling to me. S3K is by far the superior game IMO.
I remember these prototypes.. It was fun just to mess around with them and we eventually got several rom hacks based on them. Eventually some of said Rom Hackers made their own studio and were licensed by Sega to make official ports of Sonic 1 & 2 to Phones as well as CD to basically all systems, in the Sonic 2 remake Hidden Palace was a hidden zone you could access via the death pit in Mystic Cave Act 2. Then Sonic Mania came to exist. Funny how Sega actually joined forces with rom hackers to make better games, instead of whatever Nintendo is doing.
Bruh what nintendo is doing is bringing almost 10/10 games without ppl contracted
@@tchomsdaguy For some yes, but I can def say that is not the case with games like Pokemon where they strike many fangames and rom hacks and produce garbage in comparison to some of those games. I am more talking in terms of how nintendo doesnt have respect for the very fans of franchises they enjoy.
Challenge - Collect 25 Rings.
Challenger - Actively avoids all the rings.
Ikr like I was wondering if it was even possible (at least within the allotted time).
1:07 I would've loved to play that snow stage
That's ice cap
@Andre15003 Thanks, I was so bad as a kid i never reached that stage LOL
@@JesusitoXD carnival night was a hell of a stage before ice cap
For anyone thinking the knock-back mechanic wouldn't be bad in the final version... Just think about going through all those loops on Chemical Plant for example, which are MEANT to go through fast, and then all of a sudden knock-back mechanic here and there slows you down. That would've been TERRIBLE for the oficial release.
Funnily enough, the "knockback" feature was implemented into a Sonic game many years later: The Wii/PS2 version of Sonic Unleashed. I think it works better in a game like that one, mostly because A) It punishes you for running and boosting mindlessly into walls, and B) It's hilarious when Sonic boosts into a wall and falls like a cartoon character.
cool
Hiden palace is not only in Sonic Origins, it was also included in mobile port, in the death pit there is no longer spikes, the pit extends and player falls in Hiden Palace Zone
6:36 The reason why the game crashes in Final Zone is because when you try to progress, the game will try to access the Sonic 1 Final Zone data which is not there.
“Nick Arcade” | “Simon Wai”
Truly the Sonic 2 prototype names of all time.!.!
TBF, Simon Wai is the name of the guy who found it back in 1997
Interestingly, one of the switches in Simon wai oil ocean actually appears on a screenshot on the back of the US box.
9:00 Sonic 2 introduced a path swapping system, this one is missing a path swap object right in front of it.
Interesting. They had loops in Sonic 1, but the loops in Sonic 2 were definitely more complex.
@@pojr you can complete that stage by taking the alternate/secret path
"That red enemy" I'm going to declare a mecha Bulbax.
11:40 GENOCIDE CITY?
Only Genesis game I can recall that has the character getting flung away by the recoil of running into a wall was Desert Demolition, and only as the Coyote, who also banged his head against low ceilings, was tossed around by spikes and pancaked on taking fall damage. Meanwhile the playable Road Runner was immune to petty mishaps for obvious reasons.
Pet peeve: they should not be called “prototypes”. They should be referred to as “builds”.
Regarding the image in the manual: Sega was aiming for a worldwide release on November 11, 1993. Therefore, the packaging and manual would have to be done mid development with whatever assets the devs had on hand so there would be enough time to print the millions of copies required.
Great video! It would seem to me that the available "Nick Arcade" prototype is not the same build they used on the show, because Tails doesn't appear to be included. As you mentioned, it's possible to lose Tails in these builds. However, we see footage of the players right at the beginning of a level, (such as at 2:47) and there's no sign of Tails.
Tails is specifically disabled in Emerald Hill.
@budgetcoinhunter oh, thanks. That's interesting. I wonder if the developers preferred it that way, or if it was a decision made with the TV show in mind.
You won me over with the V-Rally music in the intro. A very colorful history, the Sonic 2 prerelease lore.
Hey so quick tip for these beta versions you could actually enable debug mode by pressing c,c Up down+4 and Up again! Pressing that should make you hear the ring sound so start a level hold down a button and you should have the debug mode. After that pause and press a and then press a and start on the title screen. Doing this you should allow you to have debug mode in the prototype version allowing you to explore more! (Works for all prototypes I hope this is helpful!)
Before the launch of Sonic 2, an issue of a games magazine in the UK had a VHS that had some Sonic 2 footage of one of these earlier versions. Not sure which version exactly, but it did have some visible differences from the released version such as the older title screen. I think some of the stage names might have been different too, but I might be misremembering after all these years.
Off the top of my head, it had some footage from Emerald Hill Zone, Chemical Plant and Hilltop Zone.
I think the games magazine was called Mean Machines.
You need to understand the point of prototypes. Its unlikely that such a feature would of remained after negative feedback.
Game devs go through many many builds or prototypes, testing and tossing ideas until its finally decided what stays and what doesnt
Hidden Palace was actually added to more future ports like mobile and origins. And Sand Shower was scrapped but then came back as Mirage Saloon in Sonic Mania. It is also confirmed that Mirage Saloon is on West Side Island because you get launched into Oil Ocean by one of those gun launchers. Good to know that they didn’t completely get rid of these zones!
I remember watching a YT video that details the wall bouncing. When I played one of the prototypes, I hated it. I'm glad it wasn't in the final release
wow, that knock back would have been horrible. great video showing off these early Sonic 2 builds Pojr!
Knock-back could be nice actually if the effect still allows you to control Sonic => imagine a reduced bounce and that you can still do some things, so you could use the bounce speed to your advantage, like run the other direction without starting from speed 0.
Calling it a ROM hack is like calling every update to Windows a 'hack.' They had the source code, so it’s just an update to the original game.
Fun fact: if you go into the sonic 2 mobile port, go into mystic cave zone (act 2), one of the pits before the boss brings u to hidden palace zone
I found it out myself cuz i sucked
Great video but that clickbait title should be illegal
It’s not really a click bait,it actually has sonic getting knocked back then it got removed
In my country, pirates sold Simon Wei's prototype instead of the normal game on cartridges.
It’s because it was actually stolen by a pirate before it releasef
Having something that kicks you back wouldn't be too bad, just not every wall.
Oh wait, springs
Hidden Palace appeared in the moblie games in 2011, and you can go to Proto Palace which is the unfinshed product of Hidden Palace. You can go down the death pit in mystic cave to be lead to Hidden Palace.
Also liked the video.
this guy couldnt even turn debug mode on to progress further in some levels
Original level Order from concept arts:
Present Time:
Green Hill Zone (Early Emerald Hill Zone)
Ocean Wind Zone (Cut Zone)
Woods Zone (Early Wood Zone) (Cut Zone)
Sand Shower Zone (Desert Zone from magazines) (Cut Zone)
Metropolis Zone
Warp Point (Cutscene)
Ancient Time:
Tropical Plant/Tropical Sun Zone (Cut Zone)
Hill Top Zone
Blue Lake/Blue Ocean Zone (Cut Zone)
Olimpus (Early Hidden Palace Zone) (Cut Zone) (Secret Zone)
Rock World Zone (Cut Zone) (Winter version of Sand Shower Zone)
Warp Point? (I don't know) (Cutscene)
Ruined Present Time:
Rock World Zone (Again,maybe a ruined version?)
Oil Ocean Zone
Dust Hill Zone (Early Mystic Cave Zone)
Olimpus (Cutscene Version)
Death Egg Zone
Ancient Time After Big Tsunami:
Hill Top Zone (Again)
Blue Lake/Blue Ocean Zone (Again)
Tropical Summer Zone (Cut Zone)
Olimpus (Cutscene Version)
Future Time:
Casino Night Zone
Chemical Plant Zone
Genocide City/Cyber City Zone (Cut Zone)
Olimpus? (Cutscene Version)
Return To Ancient Time:
Fire Mountain/Volcano Zone (Cut Zone) (Later replaced by Neo Green Hill Zone)
Neo Death Egg Zone (Cut Zone)
Note:Sonic The Hedgehog 2 was supposed to have time travel
Rock World Zone may have been a transition zone to the present, hence why the maps show it in two places.
Olympus wasn't a zone. It may have evolved into Hidden Palace Zone based on its placement, however.
Corrections
The reason there's two rock worlds in past and ruined present concept arts is because the past was the 1st plan before being moved to the ruined present.
Also the tsunami thing was cut before the time travel was cut so it would be blue ocean then hill top before chemical plant
That would mean in the ancient time it would just be tropical plant before going to the ruined present. Also tropical summer is an earlier name and they're the same zone
Olympus would come after dust hill to travel into the ancient time again because metropolis aka the warp point was ruined. How the Olympus do that is because it's referenced as the 2nd warp point. It would appear I believe on the same spot as the ancient time concept art
@@jq2yt I know, only the levels are in this order, I don't count cutscenes
@@RatchetAndClank14 okay but if I were you I'd update the order only
@@jq2yt Already updated
Video is good, title is a click bait. You didn't explain how anything was almost ruined. You just showed traditional different stages of development
The missing title screen in the manual became the title game for Sonic 2 on the Game Gear, though they flipped Sonic and Tails, and had Sonic show two fingers instead of a thumbs up.
"Nobody was able to complete the 25 ring challenge"
**facepalm**
Yeah is he sure about tht?🤔
The prototype's title screen is different because it is based off the Sonic 2 title screen for the Master System/Game Gear version, which actually came out before the genesis version. Surprised that was not brought up in Cybershell's video too.
That thumbnail better not be fucking clickbait.
I remember the Simon Wai beta well.
20 years ago when I started to go to Internet cafes because we didn't yet had fast Internet at home, I looked up ROM sides because very young me didn't know better at the time that this was actually illegal stuff.
Anyhow, finding any ROMs was rather difficult and I wanted to play Sonic 2 badly on my PC.
This beta was the only Sonic 2 ROM I could find for the longest time.
It bored me rather quickly back then too but these days, I can quite appreciate beta ROMs and find enjoyment in them.
0:43 all you need to know to love this guy
So at some point they probably realized that the best solution for Tails was just to make him immortal, and because of that they had to remove him from the final battle so people wouldn't abuse it.
4:08 JEEZ THATS BUGGY, WHAT HAPPENED TO THE LETTERS?💀
7:03 AGAIN?!
i woukld LOVE to see all the deleted zones on the final version of Sonic 2, they have such cool and beautiful style to them!
Honestly I wish we got Sand Shower Zone, because it seems like the inspiration for Mirage Saloon Zone. Given how I love the music in the series, I always get sad thinking about what music could have been, but was either never started because the zone was scrapped, or was canceled part way through the music being composed.
I don't know what it is, but there is something really eerie about these ancient prototype versions of these old games
1:31 wait tails actually looks like the master system sprite I have a feeling the took some inspiration from the 8bit version that came out first
It sucks that a lot of these zones were cut in the final Sonic 2 would’ve been massive
use debug mode to get past the dead ends
Most of them have little or nothing after the cutoff point.
I purposely didn't use debug mode because I thought it would be fun to see how far I could make it in a normal playthrough.
What I want to know is why they didnt even attempt to implement Tails' flight when hes playable in ANY version of Sonic 2 prior to the Taxman rerelease and on. Theres no point to playing as him in the original release outside of novelty: he plays EXACTLY the same as Sonic. Out of all the behind the scenes stuff dug up for Sonic 2, none of the original dev team have given any explanation for this.
I think Sega really nailed the pacing on Sonic 2. The levels aren't too long and there are only two acts. Some of the levels get a little disorientating like Oil Ocean Zone but it's kept to a minimum.
The sequels after this weren't designed to necessarily be played front to back in one sitting so they got a little more bloated.
Die hard Sonic fans have played all of the cut zones, as well as Hidden Palace Zone before the Christian Whitehead Remaster on Mobile, which did feature Hidden Palace Zone (if you fell in the spike pit in Mystic Cave). Sonic 2 Long Version was a ROM Hack that had Wood Zone, Genocide City zone, Dust hill zone, and Hidden Palace Zone, although it wasn't the most polished versions, but playable.
Is the debug mode available in the early prototypes? If so, it may be interesting to explore the levels that end up blocking you from progressing further.
Yes it is
It is. I purposely didn't use debug mode because I thought it would be fun to see how far I could make it in a normal playthrough.
@@pojr definitely understood. Would it be worth revisiting to see what’s out there?
@@pojr Okay that is cool.
I got a theory.Maybe the reason sonic would bounce of walls was
Chosen to up difficulty.
I actually liked the sprites they cut out. It seems to give sonic more 'life' instead of his constant static side profile (aside the standing around sprite but thats about it).
Also, I'm surprised there was no mention of debug mode where you can get to the places where you had no access to. Was debug mode not available during prototype?? I'd be very surprise if that were the case!
I don't know why, but I was expecting some creepy pasta stuff to happen or something. With the music and narration, it just felt like a creepy pasta story.
It was so frustrating being a kid that was into video games watching random kids who never picked a controller up try and do the most basic stuff as a "challenge".
This is the game that caused the issues with Sega of America and Sega of Japan, these issues will ultimately lead Sega to bow out of the console race with the Dreamcast
It was better for them to quit the console race to be honest
I always took their *real* falling out of sync to be the 32X. There were plenty of bad signs before that though, that's just where it was like... everything before that I could write off as professional. Sega of Japan's handling of 32X was malicious *and* self-destructive.
Always thought hidden palace music was amazing the one left in the final game
I would like to listen to the full version of your outro music. Can you tell me the title?:)
It's from Pac-Man arrangement, level 1.
Getting stuck in dirt while knock back on metal and slamming on marble would have been wild.
I like the knockback mechanicm because it keeps the game moving, which makes it more fun and alive.
Stopping at a wall takes the speed out of the game., it is always such a fun buster
That round ball at 10:23 reminds me of the Commodore/Escom Amiga "boing ball" logo.
I figured it was just a mini version of the ball from the Green Hill Zone boss in Sonic 1.
1:03, I really like the backdrop for Labyrinth Zone.
Fun fact: the weird snail enemy from the Nick Arcade prototype is in the mobile version (it might be in other versions, but idk)
I don’t think the nick arcade version was planned to ever release. It probably also added the bounce back for the show so that kids don’t slam into a wall in real life
I remember being in KayBee toys in the early 90s and playing a Sonic game. I think it was 1. and the idle animation, when you don't hit anything and Sonic gets impatient, he actually gets outy a yo-yo and starts playing with it. I never saw him do that in any other release of Sonic 1.
Imagine that in an alternative universe, you’re doing a speed-run for sonic 2 and everything is going great, you didn’t die, you’re minutes away from beating the world record but Sega kept the wall bump mechanics, and then you crash into a wall in metropolis and now you fucked up the run
@7:21 is that a living MissingNo.!? Such horrifying sight!
The knockback mechanic would've been terrible, but implementing something similar for when you get stuck in a wall would've been better than just calling it "one of Dr. Robotnik's diabolical traps" in the manual.
What’s ironic is that getting 25 rings in sonic 2 is very flipping easy in the final game
Some parts of the level art for Hidden Palace Zone got re-used in a stage of Sonic Spinball, I'm pretty sure. So it at least didn't *completely* go to waste.
the way you said metropolis zone ticked me off but not in a bad way
Hilariously, the feature of Sonic being knocked back by running into a wall at full speed did resurface in Sonic Unleashed!
The Wii and PS2 versions, to be exact. If you boosted into a wall, Sonic would cartoonishly flatten against the wall like a pancake, fall to the ground (still flattened), then return to normal after a second. It only happened if you were boosting and there was no risk of being sent backward into a hazard, so it was more funny than frustrating.
I could've sworn Sonic Heroes also had that as a feature, if you ran into a wall with enough speed, the character would just fall to the ground stunned for a bit before getting back up
the music in sonic 2 is based on music composed by masato nakamura, you can hear the pre console music called "masa's demos"
they are slower in tempo for unknown reasons, the game versions have more changes from the pre console versions the early build music from simon wai sounds closer to the original demos
Emerald hill zone, chemical plant and hilltop zone might be the oldest maps in the game and oil ocean and airship might be the newest with casino night in the middle
Honestly, the knockback mechanic, if toned down, limited to when not spinning, and canceled when running into something pushable, would have been potentially fun, adding just a little bit more of a challenge to speedruns.
Wait...did you use some of the BGM from Hotline Miami in your video? Or are my ears failing me?
Instead of the knock back, it would have been a neat touch if they just played the sound of a crash and maybe did a little screenshake. That would have fit the vibe of the time.
The song used at 12:51 is that Bomberman I'm trying to find it's driving me nuts I know I've heard it before.
it's not from Bomberman, it's from the Pac-man Arrangement arcade game
@@SneakyGreninjaI knew it rang some bells I had the gba collection with the 4 games in it man it’s been a while since I’ve played that game.