Excellent video! There is almost no RUclipsr who is willing to do a review of the hardware, or even understands the components and their meaning! Very useful both to understand the capabilities of the tool, and also how to access it to make repairs. I think you are the first to do this on the montage, which is a very expensive tool. I wish there were videos like this for many other tools 👍
I think the fact that it uses a Clavinova PSU internally will be a good thing in the long run; easier to replace the whole unit rather than asking a tech to replace caps etc when it starts to fail in 30+ years from now....
I respectfully disagree: I repair a lot of synths, and changing a cap, regulator or diodes is way faster and cheaper than getting a replacement which will be hard to find in 10 years… I hate these power bricks inside pro gear with a passion ;-)
Agreed, I would FAR prefer to pull the PSU of the old Montage, replace a capacitor for 25 cents, and put it back together, than to pay $80 for another disposable power brick because the old one failed somehow.
@@reinardsynth6581 ah but that’s possibly because you have the skills to do so :-) I don’t, so someone like me would be reliant on a tech to do it for me (at least $150 plus parts!!). This internal PSU looks far easier for someone like me to replace and there will be lots of choice available, if not the original Yamaha one. Just needs to deliver the correct voltage, polarity and wattage I’d imagine.
@@ScottsSynthStuff. Great if you have the skillset to do that :-) I don’t and would have to rely on a tech - and they’re not cheap. For someone like me (and most owners I’d imagine) this ‘off the shelf’ power brick looks like a great way forward. Even if the Yamaha one isn’t available, there will be after market ones. 👍
@@iixorbyes, it is an “end user replaceable part” if it is done that way, and there is an end-user cost benefit here (no costly repair person-hours to pay) The sad state of affairs is that is cheaper to throw away stuff and install a new hardware module. Coupled with how these bricks are made almost un-repair able (ultrasonically Welded plastic case, potting inside; of course no schematics available…) and the labour cost of component level repairs… to end users it becomes expensive; to the environment…
I usually repair old digital synths and was wondering what the contents of the latest models consist of. However, the latest models are very expensive and out of my reach. Your video was very nice and satisfied my curiosity. Thank you very much for the great video.
Let me add to your video if I may, Yamaha’s top workstations are made in a clamshell design to access them, that is more expensive to make, but much better for servicing and diagnosing, only some analog synths still do that. the internal switching brick power supply is quite normal nowadays, plenty of pro and consumer electronics do it that way now, I’d make nothing of it, I prefer that because it’s just 1 rail, its a better way that’s also cost effective Do notice the big faraday cages on emf sensitive electronics I love that Yamaha does this, the others don’t. The foam blocks are dust protection and I’d imagine they want to keep pressure inside the montage and don’t get air on your fingers from the flowing fan air. the adding an extra chip for “double” but not not of the same thing is creative way of boosting a spec sheet, Korg did it with the triton line when it introduced the triton studio, its gimmicky but it works, and it’s we’ll implemented on the MM Buys yes as you brilliantly pointed out the new processor that brings it all together is what brings everything together and makes the MM feel next gen, snappiness is a feature that’s hard to boast about but it does a lot to impress the player Excellent presentation
Hey Scott ! I'm a 5-year MODX owner, I couldn't afford the Montage when it was released and I've been sufficiently happy with the MODX for the last couple of years. When the Montage M was released I thought it was time for an upgrade, but I wondered if perhaps I should just get a regular Montage now that the prices have dropped. Your video helped me immensely, and was just what I needed. I will definitely save up for the Montage M, because these upgrades are fantastic. Thank you so much.
Honestly, I was really on the fence when the Montage M was announced, but I finally bit the bullet and went from my Montage to the Montage M, and I'm SO glad I did.
If you gig, you might regret upgrading. The MODX is so much easier to transport and practically the same instrument as the regular Montage, but you do get a better keybed & premium build quality, a few extra controls and a ram upgrade if you if have the older MODX. If the regular MODX & Montage were the same price, I'd still pick the MODX because portability is something I value. The MODX+ even more so. Certainly some nice upgrades going from a MODX to the Montage M, but nothing I really absolutely have to have. My VST's offer a lot of additional sounds engines however. That would be a lot of saving you'd have to do as the price difference between the MODX & Montage M is a gigantic price difference. You probably get 2/3's of the sonic functionality of the Montage M in a MODX, but still there is the 1/3 difference. If your well off and don't gig, then by all means. The Montage M is probably best for people that hate computers and want an all in one keyboard that does most everything they need. But for me, it still wouldn't do a lot of things I want.....but VST's would.
@@classicarcadeamusementpark4242 I actually ONLY use the MODX for gigging - when I dabble in music production at home, I use VSTs because it's easier and they (mostly) sound better. The MODX is insanely practical for gigging, and it's paid for itself many times over, so I'd really like to upgrade to a better keybed, better sounding analog output, and more storage space for samples.
@@classicarcadeamusementpark4242 Agree with all of this. The vagaries of live sound would pretty much cancel out the better DACs or a slightly clearer acoustic guitar sample. I have the old MODX and like you appreciate its compactness and light weight. I use an Ipad to add analog sounds incredibly easy thanks to the MODX's connectivity. If money is no object, go for it but...considering I got my MODX 7 for under £1,000, I'm happy to squeeze more juice out of it (I've got to know it pretty well and it's still incredibly powerful)
That was a super interesting insight video on the M. The only comment I have is one that your fellow youtuber who also just got an Montage M is that the first thing he mentioned was the sound of the fan. He didn't know it had a fan it it, and he said it's driving him nuts, and he couldn't 100 percent determine if it's a fan or not, you just validated that. Also, the fan seems like an "whoopsie" afterthought, we just put a way too powerful CPU in there, and we don't have the time to do it properly like laptop Fans (which has cooling pipes and takes the heat away with channels. They obviously just drilled it right on top of it, and the intake there, hm, is it blowing heat away (in which case it will heat up the PCB right above it) or drawing "cool" air into the cooling element? Since I'm an old tech this would be the first thing on my mind when seeing that "afterthought", because that's def. not something they planned, everything else is beautiful with a lot of improvements in the right places.
Thanks for doing this Scott! The power supply deal is surprising in a flagship Yamaha, but it seems lots of manufacturers are doing that now. Same in most Rolands too.
Thanks Scott! Very interesting break down on the differences between the Montage and Montage M. It has inspired me so off to my garage to get my duct tape, hacksaw and hammer to start upgrading my Montage. 😄
Great video Scott !! coming from a technical background myself, I enjoyed the detailed info about the Montage M internals and contemplate the evolution that the technology took since the 80's (1986) when my small music equipment company was building an 8-voice polyphonic synthesizer with aftertouch based on Analog and digital technologies: Dual DCO's, DCF and VCA using OTA OP Amps, 1xDLFO per voice, BBDL Effects, a Z80 CPU board dedicated to Keyboard and control panel scanning and display control. Unfortunately, this synth never saw the light of day due to company bankrupsy (no money to invest on a critical moment...)
It's awful when dreams go away like that, I've been involved in projects like that as well! Although I wouldn't want to write Z80 assembler, it's been a long time...
Thanks Woody! Those key lengths are the "key" to a good feeling keybed! And it's why your JD-Xi feels so miserable (I had one, too, just not as "decorated" as yours)
what an excellent video I really feel like my brain is getting massaged as I watched these things. Wonderful explanation of the chips and services. Be exciting to see how this works with my daw
Thanks Scott, I'm interested in this geekery, TBH the old Montage sounded very good to me, now I couldn't have imagined how Yamaha would have been able to improve on that but apparently they did, kudos !
Excellent information thanks. I was shocked (no pun intended) when I saw that power supply. I'm still disappointed with Yamaha for the lack of stock in the UK and Europe for the Montage M and it makes me wonder if it is deliberate to keep the prices high.
I’m pleasantly surprised at how powerful the CPU is in there! I have a Korg Nautilus which uses a dual-core Intel Atom (I think it runs at 1.9 GHz??) and when it boots up, the fan is very loud. That’s only during the boot-up process thankfully, the fan is otherwise virtually silent.
well, congrats on your Nautilus. I hate KORG because they didn't comply with open source licenses LOL. I need to stop thinking like an IT guy and more like a musician. But then ... this is still considered stealing (by me, at least).
@@RinaldoJonathan I understand what you mean. It is kind of ironic how both the Nautilus and Montage M are pretty much Linux PCs inside of a keyboard chassis and yet the OS is still proprietary. I’m assuming that’s what you mean anyway?
@@Omega072. no, but that's separate issue with me (that's solved by Montage M's ESP, proving my point that "everything is a VST"). beware : long rant. the one that I have issue is, KORG is known to use Linux, but never release source code fully. Linux's license is basically "you're free to use and modify (like literally free besides your internet to download), BUT you must publish source code if you sell your creations". That's how Linux (and android) are made, even Microsoft and Google was contributing directly to it, even though they are technically in a competition. BTW, android uses almost same license, and actually uses Linux kernel, and if somehow there's a modification (or security issue) found by android maker - lets say Samsung, and if Samsung fix it, Samsung has to open the source code for the whole Linux community to review and add to upstream, so next time anyone (including Yamaha, or Microsoft and Google) may use it, it's more safer because of Samsung. and KORG only take it without contributing. kronoshacker.blogspot.com/2015/05/about-linux-kernel-used-in-korg-kronos.html I mean you are allowed to just take it without contributing, if : - you're not actually making anything (not fixing or adding features) - you're not making commercial product (only for personal uses) Nobody is preventing you to open your nautilus, replace the CPU with Core i9, run their OS with it, it will run just fine. BUT it will run the same speed and limitations as that Atom it had before. Because the limitations was set in kernel. THEN when you want to modify the kernel (for whatever reason), the source didn't exist. They HAVE TO give the source code. I like how BlackBerry and Yamaha comply with this. Yamaha's code even exists here : download.yamaha.com/sourcecodes/synth/ you can modify that kernel source code for whatever reason, BUT you can't run it because Yamaha doesn't use off the shelf chips (they don't use Intel Atom, they use whatever the ARM they might have over there). BlackBerry literally locked their bootloader, even if you recompile that kernel, you can't run it on BlackBerry (even though it should technically), just because that device is locked and there's no unlock code until today, and the code that can run on BlackBerry must be signed by BlackBerry themselves, instead of you. KORG have weird security code in their kernel, AND have another open source program configured weirdly in their OS, all without documentation or source code. Even AKAI's MPC (newer one) technically comply with this (since they use existing CPU, they don't modify kernel - means they don't actually need to release anything) Other company that I know (or used to) not comply with this is MediaTek. I had an android before, 15 years ago, 4.2 JellyBean, made a custom rom myself, failed because the kernel source code didn't exists. From that moment, I hate companies that didn't comply with this license. Not because I hate KORG as a musician, they made great stuff. But this ... I'm a musician, but also a programmer. This is kinda sensitive to me. But then, how many musician are also engineers, especially in IT department? How many of them understand licenses? And then after that, how many of them gives enough fuck? Then how many of those who give a fuck, have enough money to represent Linux Foundation, to sue KORG? .... Sorry for long rant. Hehe. Still hoping one day I can afford Montage M :)
The hydrasynth will be underwhelming, very, the most interesting thing in there would be to take apart the key bed to see their implementation of poly AT, and the Fantoms, can be done but there not as easy to show on screen because of the way they are build, as stacked boards, so that involves a lot of tearing apart and disconnecting stuff, very different than Yamaha, bu5 I would love to have a peek inside too
Great info as always Scott. I have to wonder though, the MODX+ proves that one SWP70 can do 128 voices of FM-X and 128 voices of AWM2, so why do they have a separate SWP70 for FM-X on the Montages? I think that foam on the back of the keybed is to either keep dust out now that there’s a fan, or to reduce fan noise escaping from the case.
If it's any consolation, my CLP-860's power supply continues to run great after 24 years of almost daily use---much of it the hard use of a practicing concert pianist. I actually like the idea of being able to replace my Montage M's power supply myself in a decade or two with something so familiar.
Great content. Roland and Yamaha are due for new hardware when the next Fantom and Montage replacements come into play. Both have stretched the existing chips to the limits.
It’s also crazy when you consider the development of regular CPUs in the time frame since those chips came out. I’m curious if it’s a complete in house development or if they are buying IP from third parties for those chips.
Awesome video Scott! Is it possible there would be an OS upgrade for a poly aftertouch for M6/M7 in the years to come? It's possible with other synths.
Very informative video. I've yet to try one out, but I'm hoping one of our Guitar Centers in the area has one on the floor. I know one store did when I called when it came out, but I haven't made it there yet. While the sound quality of the M is improved, and some of the samples cleaner, for my purpose of playing in cover bands or tribute bands for live performance, I still think the difference in sound between my MODX would be minimal in a full rock band situation. Only if your going to do piano solo without the band or something. Some of those strings might be fuller, but most of the sounds used would probably still be the same or almost the same. The AN-X engine is nice, but.....all the VST analog synth engines are probably going to closer model the sounds I'm after of the original synths. Portability to a live band is key. A MODX M could be something I'd eventually be interested in. Even better...If Yamaha offered "at reasonable cost" a new upgrade board installed by their service centers to upgrade an original MODX to a MODX M. Surely I'd pay $500 or something like that to upgrade. MODX + laptop full of VST's still seems like the best solution to me what what I want to do. The Montage M has some nice upgrades, but still relatively smaller compared to what upgrading to the MODX did for me vs my older synths I used previously.
I agree - I would not be dragging a Montage around on tour unless I was a huge artist that had a road crew doing it for me. My live board is a Fantom-06 for this exact reason: compact and lightweight, and still does most of what the big Fantom does.
@@ScottsSynthStuff My Fantom is Roland's VST's on my laptop. I'm generally not that big a fan of Roland's sounds compared to the ones available for the Yamaha though for what I do, which is 80s/70s rock covers. The Fantom is more ideal for synth pop. Roland offers probably 90+% of what the Fantom 0 does as software that can be run on a laptop. The B3 engine isn't offered, maybe not the arpegitator, nor the Super Natural sounds but I hear there aren't that many in the Fantom 0 to begin with. Zenology offers the same ZenCore sounds and all the synth modeled expansions like the Jupiter 8 and all the sound packs are available as VST's. The regular Fantom has the V-Piano which you can't get as a VST but there are good alternatives in other VST's, same with the B-3 engine. I think there are more super natural sounds on the regular Fantom too. But one huge advantage to the software route is all the more faithful sounding ABC models Roland offers only to computer users that aren't available to their Fantom/Fantom 0 users. These are of desirable synths including the D-50 you can't get for the Fantom's (so far) and also come in a form factor more representative of the original keyboards than the ZenCore models offered for the Fantom's. The choice that works best for me is my MODX + laptop VST's which include most of the Fantom sounds.
This board is unbelievable! My GOD! This is the first Yamaha im super excited about since the Motif XF! THIS is what the original Montage should have been!
7:27 Is the fan running all the time. Some people say it is very loud on boot. Does it stop afterwards or lower the speed? Personally I would prefere that the UI get throttled instead of having a fan. I wonder what would happen if you remove the fan. Will the UI get slower or will the CPU die? Am I right, the fan is for the UI not for the synth dsp chips?
very useful video , thank you . i enjoyed every second of it. please do the same for other keyboard and brands even arrangers like genos 2 or brand like kronos and natilus
Thanks. Good to know as Arturia has this new MPE full touch key action that's another dimension. I wonder if the M8x is capable of something similar using the GEX/PAT and higher processing power and whether the electromagnetic system can be customized. With the new 2.0 OS forthcoming will the M8x be exactly the same or different? That power brick is nothing new as the $6,000 Genos 2 has exactly the same crap as well as other manufacturers. Obviously that brick will go bad eventually and we'll have to replace it along with the fan.
Here's really hoping Yamaha releases the ESP plugin as a standalone product for those of us who would LOVE to have a montage M but, cannot in any way shape for form afford one. Considering the specs of the CPU and DSP chips on the Montage M, it makes me wonder how much more it could theoretically do on an advanced CPU/GPU chip like the Apple M3. I also wonder if Yamaha is emulating the hardware inside the synth in ESP or if they have ported the code to run truly natively on Intel and Apple M series ARM chips.
My korg m3 has a PSU like this (not sure if its yamaha) but I wondered if they did it due to the modular frame where you can link another synth with it so maybe it powers that too
The weird thing is the output from the Motif XF is amazing, but they really dropped the ball with the original Montage - everything was treble heavy and pianos sounded like Marimbas through a p.a. It’s good to hear that they have improved the output with the M, but really this is just correcting a major flaw in the original Montage.
Hello Scott, very informative video, thanks. 👍 I have a question about AWM2 elements in the new Montage. The manual says "AMW2: 128 Elements (max.)". The question is, each part can use up to 128 elements, or the AWM2 engine's limit is 128 elements, and these elements can be shared on one or more parts? With more simple words, can we have, for example, a 4-part performance with 32 elements per part (total 128 elements) or we can have a 4-part performance with up to 128 elements per part (total 512 elements/performance)? Thanks for any answer.😎
You could do both...but you would end up with massive voice stealing if you had all that sounding at once. Basically you have 128 preset voices and 128 USER voices. You can distribute those amongst your performance as you see fit. But if you are using up all 128 preset voices on a part that is using factory preset sounds, you don't get any more even if NONE of the user voices are being used.
@@ScottsSynthStuff Yes, i know all that about polyphony, i had the MODX7 and now i'm thinking to buy a Montage M.🙂 The question is specifically about the elements of AWM2 engine. If we can use up to 128 elements per part, we can do crazy things that no other synth can do. For example, we can make a performance of, say, 4 parts, and in each part we can put 128 elements to run in Cycle or Random mode, so we won't have a problem with polyphony. But the potential for sound design here is really enormous.
I own Motif XF I’m thinking about upgrading to Montage or Montage M. How easy is to copy my custom voices / performances / patterns? Does both Montage and Montage M have realtime pattern playback sequencer with 5 scene mute states / Pattern A-P bar quantize?
Is the first AWM2 chip really only for factory presets, or is it for factory samples? In other words, if you make your own preset using the factory samples, which chip plays your preset (or Voice in Yamaha speak)? By the way, as I recall, the TG500 had two chips that each referenced a different sample ROM way back in the early 90s. An easy way to double the polyphony, at the expense of some flexibility.
Factory SAMPLES, yes. If you make a user preset utilizing a factory sample, it's going to play on that first chip. If you make one using a sample from a library that you have loaded using custom samples, it's going to play on the second chip.
Something you said in your first montage m videos and I don't see mentioned often is that the montage m solved the "one midi input channel - one part" limitation. This was huge for me because I bought a modx 6 with the hopes of using it as a lightweight synth to which I could plug my external 88 key weighted keyboard. This in theory allowed to be able to have a full sized keyboard while still retaining the possibility of a portable setup. My hopes came crashing down when I realized there was no way of controlling more than one part at a time from an external keyboard (at least one with a single fixed midi channel output). Nor was it an option for changing the part that the ext. controller plays, so you can't control different parts with different scenes. And this wasn't even different for the montage. It seems completely insane to me, and I've wondered many times if it was due to hardware limitation or just an option Yamaha purposely wasn't interested in delivering. Now the montage m finally gave us this capability, but the smallest model still is too heavy for it to be as convenient as I wanted.
I don't know if I understood you, bur you can easily control multi part performances with Single or Hybrid MIDI control in the Montage / MODX utility menu.
@@lumer2b That's right, but those two modes basically allow for the external controller to play either only one part or all parts. What is not possible is to have an option similar to the "keyboard control" feature of the built-in keyboard. In other words, you cannot have the external keyboard control different parts with scene changes. I don't even know if this is possible with the montage m, but from what I've gathered you can select a specific subset of parts to control, in contrast to controlling only one or all at the same time.
@@teo_lp Ah I see. You can store the 'keyboard control on/off" state for each part in different scenes, so I think it should be possible to change scene and have it play a different part (with MIDI mode Single or Hybrid it will play whatever parts have 'keyboard on').
Really great video. I was wondering if there is any way to somehow "copy" some of preset sounds into user memory so that I can use built in sounds however physically stored as user sound and thus taking advantage of double polyphony. Such guide would be really priceless 🙂
As far as I know, there is no way to copy the actual factory samples into user memory outside of actually sampling them (i.e. Sample Robot). So it's not impossible, but it wouldn't be easy.
@@ScottsSynthStuff Unless Yamaha provides an expansion to load up as long as it's not proprietary content because I had already asked the exact same question. It appears to be a total waste of that chip and 128 poly because what if some of us never load anything? I'd rather have a duplicate of the internal ROM and double the AWM2 options.
@@LeandroSantos-jv4ex no, that is the previous generation. The current Fantom came out in 2019. The new Fantom EX is identical in terms of hardware to the 2019 Fantom, the only difference being the operating system.
With 32bit architecture the hope for increased user flash memory is out of the window, but you mentioned sata support. What could this potentially mean?
Considdered all the features the new CPU have, it's kinda weired why they havn't used some of them to adapt a way of having samples on an sdcard of some kind. to swap sample sets in and out. Even the type used has different speeds, in my mind it should be sufficient to move 4-5gb reasonable fast, I mean they use EMMC memory which isn't especially fast compared to hi speed DDR and SDD storage in many raspberry pi or other single board computers and compatibles to load the OS. It only need to be fast enough to move those avg 5gb max of samples once in a while. The instrument could have a small dock underneath where you could easy mount 1 or 2 cards of anything between 16 and whatever max size a compatible type of memory it supports. It would just be used like you used a harddisk in the old days to store anything from samples to midifiles.. etc. It's kinda the same as with some computer parts .. they have a chip that is able to give you USB 3.1 but it has to go thru an usb 2 switch, how silly is that. Its the same as hdmi 2.1 has been out for years but Monitor brands keep giving us new Monitors that only has 2.0 just to save a few bucks and people then have to live with 60Hz thru hdmi on a panel that supports 240 hz. The world is silly.
It's not a new CPU, the architecture is 14 years old, the sitara chip itself is at least 10 years old. It's hilariously underpowered compared to the likes of the pi powered korg synths, AN-X is only 16 voices because the a15 CPU is barely fast enough to do that.
@@lewisd56 In synth language or timeline, 10 years old is really new because synths are trickle down technology else they'd be double the cost. If they sold like I-phones the latest tech would be cheap as dirt because of the law of supply and demand. In comparison, no one is/are demanding synths from the general mass of population. There's no money or not much in making synths but I'm glad someone is doing it.
does it have a better, more reliable touch display?...i'm one of those, probably rare cases with a montage 6, that has a touch display that only reacts correct after 30 to 45 minutes 'warming up' time, wich is weird (calibrating does not help) with only in house use...i'm concidering buying this as a replacement.
I've had a MODX, Montage, and now a Montage M, and none of them have ever had that problem. The touch display on the new Montage is the same as the old one.
Thanks Scott! I'm not too knowledgeable about the techy stuff, so I wanted to ask if it is possible for the ANX polyphony to increase with future updates, or is the ANX polyphony limited to the current internal components? Is that a reasonable question...ha? Thanks :)
The sitara chip is still hillariously underpowered, the a15 architecture is 14 years old and no longer supported by ARM, the last release with it was in 2015!, the M4s are probably faster despite running at 1/6th the speed. The OG montage/modx used an archaic Arm9 CPU if i recall, an architecture from the 90s discontinued in the mid 2000s but still used for some reason by TI. It needs a fan because its an ancient 40nm chip that drinks power and performs like a 2010 smartphone. The most useful things in it are the DSPs, but if yamaha did a korg and just used the significantly (we are talking magnitudes) faster pi compute modules or similar, evetything could run on the CPU anyway. The a15 has an FPU, the Arm9 CPU in the old systems doesnt have an FPU. Dont give yamaha credit for using a 10 year old chip that they could have used in the OG systems.
could agree there. But we're talking about "embedded system". It runs very stripped down version of Linux. It can run fast because it runs so little, with so little demands, on an extensively tested platform which you can optimize the code line by line. Even today, still so many ATMs run Windows XP or 7, with little to no issues, with Pentium 4 to Core2Duo. What do you expect it to do, run Furmark? I can see Yamaha taking MONTAGE like it's a military computer. It "doesn't do much", optimized as hell, and can actually take beating. Yes Yamaha can upgrade it to newest CPU, yes you can upgrade local ATMs with Core i9, but somewhere somehow your ATM will crash just because Windows XP doesn't like Core i9 Extreme over there (and can't utilize it anyway, or have use of it), so why bother? I had a code before that runs fine on Arduino Uno, but crashes on Arduino Mega. I bought Mega "just because I can", not because I (or the code) needs it. And it bite me hard. There will be stupid edge cases. So for me, avoid it with all costs.
@@RinaldoJonathan Linux itself is simply the kernel. Yamaha by law has to release the kernel sources. 'stripped down' just means it's not running all of the standard GNU apps. It's still the exact same Linux used on pretty much any other system. The expectation is that Yamaha uses slightly more modern hardware, korg and Roland are managing it, and Roland still uses it's own ASICs. There's nothing cheap about the chips Yamaha is using either, it would cost them less to use more up to date hardware.v
But the guarantee is now gone! ;-) In any case, everything is very tidy and you can probably fix most things yourself if you have the spare part. It would have been interesting to see what the hard drive looked like?
USER Presets do not provide another 128 voice poly. The correct onfo is ONLY if the USER or LIBRARY(s) have NEW or additional waves/samples! You just can't create a user patch from a factory sound. It must contain new samples. The same is true if you load or alter and save a Library perfromance...ONLY if it contains new samples.
Correct. If your new performance only uses factory samples, it shares the polyphony of the first SWP70 chip. Only if you are playing performances utilizing loaded libraries with samples does the second SWP70 get used with its own polyphony. It's about the samples (stored on the flash memory connected to the SWP70 chip), not the performances utilizing those samples.
@@ScottsSynthStuff Thanks Scott regarding the 2nd SWP70 chip's role in this. BTW, I liked the whole Senior presentation on the original Montage. Hope you guys do one for this new version!
There is no facility in the existing M6 and M7 for polyphonic aftertouch. Also, polyphonic aftertouch keybeds need to be individually calibrated to the synth at the factory before shipping.
I highly doubt Yamaha is using CANBus - that's a low bandwidth interface/protocol mostly used in the automotive industry. Guessing the TI CPU is an off-the-shelf part intended for a variety of verticals - just because it has SATA doesn't mean Yamaha will ever use it, especially if they didn't add all the other required components to the mainboard.
I'm very familiar with CANBus actually, and there are some serial interconnected components...but without the service manual, I'm just guessing at this point. And you're right, this is a processor meant for all kinds of vertical applications, and there is no visible support for SATA or most of the other things I mentioned anywhere on the PCB.
I chuckle when watching this vid. This thing reminds me of Omnisphere (soft synth) or the Kontakt user library, both of which are a classic case of "jack of all trades, good for nothing." Yamaha crams a million (mostly useless) patches into an incredibly puny (by today's standards) 10 GB to try to up the marketing wow factor. More is always better, right? This thing is basically a computer with a keybed attached to it - just like your PC. Only your PC (or Mac) is a jillion times more powerful and is UPGRADEABLE. The poor Kronos and now Nautilus, for example, suffer from dated hardware fatigue. Why then, does it cost so much? Because robots can't spit out these things by the thousands - a lot of handwork is involved. Plus, they cost a ton to ship due to their size and weight. You can buy an inexpensive motherboard and a very powerful CPU to go with it which would dance circles around this thing, and load that PC build with terabytes worth of storage (and samples) and 64 GB of ram, etc. Is there a place in today's market for this keyboard? Answer: not much of one. Sound designers would love it, and you could do a whole movie soundtrack with it. But everyone else - bread and butter guys - not so much. And hauling it to a gig? - eh, I don't know. I'd hate for a beer bottle to come flying at it. And in the studio you'd be crazy to invest in this thing instead of a controller hooked up to a (powerful) computer running WAY more powerful soft synths. The REAL appeal of this thing: Its keybed. It's the best. It's a "goldilocks" action that works for pianists and synth players alike. But you can basically get that keybed going back to the Korg M1 all the way thru the Korg Oasys. I'd give serious consideration to lowering your sights (and budget) and going with a much lower-cost option. And this goes for the Roland Fantom, too - which is a nutty overkill board as well. Developers have just hit a wall with these things, and there's nowhere left to go beyond a lot of pretty flashing lights. Remember, it's all about the music, not an expensive playtoy. You want a solid daily driver like a Camry - not a Corvette, for which the shine wears off very quickly. Think about composing a song - not about a keyboard that will compose it for you.
Korg does the same stuff with the power supply and in a much worse way. I don't feel it's a problem here, in fact standard parts make for much easier servicing (also reduces manufacturing costs). What really strikes me is the M appears to be a hacked-together evolution of the classic rather than a new design. It's a more-of-what-we-know thing, arranged in a weird split personality way (one for presets, one for user performances) instead of a new unifying architecture. It is still an amazing keyboard but I have the feel Yamaha overpromised and underdelivered (or lets say we were all overhyping this ourselves): - No new higher resolution capacitive screen - The HDMI output (which is now directly on the sitara chip) does not come to an external port - No polyphonic aftertouch on the 6 and 7 where people are more probable to want/need it. Looks like I will skip this generation.
Its not a new strategy in synths, its been used as far back as 2000 in the waldorf Xtk except the power brick was rotated so the cord plugged into it directly through back of the case.
The fan on the montage M is quite noisy. This is the first time I have a synth (idle) that makes as noise as a laptop (when CPU is working hard) that's my only regret with the Montage M.
That's odd...I have NEVER actually heard the fan on my Montage M7 until I opened it up to make this video. For all I know, it could have been inoperative. It does sound louder in this video, because I put the camera and microphone RIGHT NEXT to it, but even with the top open I had to bend down close to it to actually hear it myself.
@@ScottsSynthStuff Scott, I have auditioned 6 seperate MMs, and 2 of them had noisy fans...stock cheap fans actually do vary in constuction enough that this does happen. I always replace fans with high grade ones, and use rubber or silicon washers. The fan is a deal breaker for me. I have an original Montage and it sounds excellent.
Respectfully, does comparing 0.0016 % THD with 0.0008% make any sense ? If yes, was the old Montage just sh*t in terms of audio quality, despite being Yamaha's Synthesizer top-line for several years ? From a memory perspective, it sure was, and is. With a Boesendorfer Piano and some a bit thicker multisamples it was already full, a bit later than the MODX, but still easy to reach its memory capacity. While other brands were able to implement standard SSDs. And I fear, the technological advancement is not that great. Now there is a fan. While very silent, fans do tend to degrade mechanical. Coming from a no-fan engine and going to be fan-dependent seems to me counter-cyclical, too. Processors get faster by using less and less power, yes ? The software got an overhaul and utilizes a second display, but I cannot fathom anyone who has already a Montage would long after the new M.
When the Montage M vst plugin will be available for all I will sell my Montage 6. Today lots of bands use a Mac and Mainstage with plugins. M4 or Arm processors today are enough powerful to run multiple instances of our hardware synths. See for example the OsTirus, it's the 1:1 emulation of the Motorola cpu + the Virus os. I have many vst plugins from Korg and some of the Roland Cloud, all of them sound great. I never will buy a new hw synth.
Excellent video! There is almost no RUclipsr who is willing to do a review of the hardware, or even understands the components and their meaning! Very useful both to understand the capabilities of the tool, and also how to access it to make repairs. I think you are the first to do this on the montage, which is a very expensive tool.
I wish there were videos like this for many other tools 👍
Well I've done teardown/restoration videos for quite a few older synths, you might want to check those out too.
I think the fact that it uses a Clavinova PSU internally will be a good thing in the long run; easier to replace the whole unit rather than asking a tech to replace caps etc when it starts to fail in 30+ years from now....
I respectfully disagree: I repair a lot of synths, and changing a cap, regulator or diodes is way faster and cheaper than getting a replacement which will be hard to find in 10 years… I hate these power bricks inside pro gear with a passion ;-)
Agreed, I would FAR prefer to pull the PSU of the old Montage, replace a capacitor for 25 cents, and put it back together, than to pay $80 for another disposable power brick because the old one failed somehow.
@@reinardsynth6581 ah but that’s possibly because you have the skills to do so :-) I don’t, so someone like me would be reliant on a tech to do it for me (at least $150 plus parts!!). This internal PSU looks far easier for someone like me to replace and there will be lots of choice available, if not the original Yamaha one. Just needs to deliver the correct voltage, polarity and wattage I’d imagine.
@@ScottsSynthStuff. Great if you have the skillset to do that :-) I don’t and would have to rely on a tech - and they’re not cheap. For someone like me (and most owners I’d imagine) this ‘off the shelf’ power brick looks like a great way forward. Even if the Yamaha one isn’t available, there will be after market ones. 👍
@@iixorbyes, it is an “end user replaceable part” if it is done that way, and there is an end-user cost benefit here (no costly repair person-hours to pay) The sad state of affairs is that is cheaper to throw away stuff and install a new hardware module. Coupled with how these bricks are made almost un-repair able (ultrasonically
Welded plastic case, potting inside; of course no schematics available…) and the labour cost of component level repairs… to end users it becomes expensive; to the environment…
I usually repair old digital synths and was wondering what the contents of the latest models consist of. However, the latest models are very expensive and out of my reach. Your video was very nice and satisfied my curiosity. Thank you very much for the great video.
Let me add to your video if I may, Yamaha’s top workstations are made in a clamshell design to access them, that is more expensive to make, but much better for servicing and diagnosing, only some analog synths still do that.
the internal switching brick power supply is quite normal nowadays, plenty of pro and consumer electronics do it that way now, I’d make nothing of it, I prefer that because it’s just 1 rail, its a better way that’s also cost effective
Do notice the big faraday cages on emf sensitive electronics I love that Yamaha does this, the others don’t.
The foam blocks are dust protection and I’d imagine they want to keep pressure inside the montage and don’t get air on your fingers from the flowing fan air.
the adding an extra chip for “double” but not not of the same thing is creative way of boosting a spec sheet, Korg did it with the triton line when it introduced the triton studio, its gimmicky but it works, and it’s we’ll implemented on the MM
Buys yes as you brilliantly pointed out the new processor that brings it all together is what brings everything together and makes the MM feel next gen, snappiness is a feature that’s hard to boast about but it does a lot to impress the player
Excellent presentation
Ooooh fascinating! ❤ and indeed, smart morph is only for AN-X or FM-X not a combination of the two ;)
I figured as much. But wouldn't that be cool! :) I can't wait to try it out on AN-X.
Hey Scott ! I'm a 5-year MODX owner, I couldn't afford the Montage when it was released and I've been sufficiently happy with the MODX for the last couple of years. When the Montage M was released I thought it was time for an upgrade, but I wondered if perhaps I should just get a regular Montage now that the prices have dropped.
Your video helped me immensely, and was just what I needed. I will definitely save up for the Montage M, because these upgrades are fantastic. Thank you so much.
Honestly, I was really on the fence when the Montage M was announced, but I finally bit the bullet and went from my Montage to the Montage M, and I'm SO glad I did.
If you gig, you might regret upgrading. The MODX is so much easier to transport and practically the same instrument as the regular Montage, but you do get a better keybed & premium build quality, a few extra controls and a ram upgrade if you if have the older MODX. If the regular MODX & Montage were the same price, I'd still pick the MODX because portability is something I value. The MODX+ even more so.
Certainly some nice upgrades going from a MODX to the Montage M, but nothing I really absolutely have to have. My VST's offer a lot of additional sounds engines however. That would be a lot of saving you'd have to do as the price difference between the MODX & Montage M is a gigantic price difference. You probably get 2/3's of the sonic functionality of the Montage M in a MODX, but still there is the 1/3 difference. If your well off and don't gig, then by all means.
The Montage M is probably best for people that hate computers and want an all in one keyboard that does most everything they need. But for me, it still wouldn't do a lot of things I want.....but VST's would.
@@classicarcadeamusementpark4242 I actually ONLY use the MODX for gigging - when I dabble in music production at home, I use VSTs because it's easier and they (mostly) sound better.
The MODX is insanely practical for gigging, and it's paid for itself many times over, so I'd really like to upgrade to a better keybed, better sounding analog output, and more storage space for samples.
@@classicarcadeamusementpark4242 Agree with all of this. The vagaries of live sound would pretty much cancel out the better DACs or a slightly clearer acoustic guitar sample. I have the old MODX and like you appreciate its compactness and light weight. I use an Ipad to add analog sounds incredibly easy thanks to the MODX's connectivity. If money is no object, go for it but...considering I got my MODX 7 for under £1,000, I'm happy to squeeze more juice out of it (I've got to know it pretty well and it's still incredibly powerful)
GREAT detailed look inside the Montage M. Thanks for the vid!
That was a super interesting insight video on the M. The only comment I have is one that your fellow youtuber who also just got an Montage M is that the first thing he mentioned was the sound of the fan. He didn't know it had a fan it it, and he said it's driving him nuts, and he couldn't 100 percent determine if it's a fan or not, you just validated that. Also, the fan seems like an "whoopsie" afterthought, we just put a way too powerful CPU in there, and we don't have the time to do it properly like laptop Fans (which has cooling pipes and takes the heat away with channels. They obviously just drilled it right on top of it, and the intake there, hm, is it blowing heat away (in which case it will heat up the PCB right above it) or drawing "cool" air into the cooling element? Since I'm an old tech this would be the first thing on my mind when seeing that "afterthought", because that's def. not something they planned, everything else is beautiful with a lot of improvements in the right places.
Thanks for doing this Scott! The power supply deal is surprising in a flagship Yamaha, but it seems lots of manufacturers are doing that now. Same in most Rolands too.
Yeah, I was really surprised by it!
Great breakdown. I wonder on the circuit boards layer count. Ground layers are signal integrity's friend. Great to hear on the SW update coming.
This very helpfull even if I didn't understand what all the words mean. It helps too see if it holds up to the price
Thanks Scott! Very interesting break down on the differences between the Montage and Montage M. It has inspired me so off to my garage to get my duct tape, hacksaw and hammer to start upgrading my Montage. 😄
Thank you very much Scott. Love how you detailed all the inside electronic boards.
Thanks so much for showing this. One of a kind video.
Great video Scott !! coming from a technical background myself, I enjoyed the detailed info about the Montage M internals and contemplate the evolution that the technology took since the 80's (1986) when my small music equipment company was building an 8-voice polyphonic synthesizer with aftertouch based on Analog and digital technologies: Dual DCO's, DCF and VCA using OTA OP Amps, 1xDLFO per voice, BBDL Effects, a Z80 CPU board dedicated to Keyboard and control panel scanning and display control. Unfortunately, this synth never saw the light of day due to company bankrupsy (no money to invest on a critical moment...)
It's awful when dreams go away like that, I've been involved in projects like that as well! Although I wouldn't want to write Z80 assembler, it's been a long time...
As a keyboard player and electronics Technician that used to repair these for a Sweet company, I really like this video.
fantastic info, great vid and wow, look at the length of those keys and the pivots!
Thanks Woody! Those key lengths are the "key" to a good feeling keybed! And it's why your JD-Xi feels so miserable (I had one, too, just not as "decorated" as yours)
what an excellent video I really feel like my brain is getting massaged as I watched these things. Wonderful explanation of the chips and services. Be exciting to see how this works with my daw
Honestly, I have my doubts the DACs and Opamps make a significant difference in sound quality. Yes, they are different on paper, but noones gonna hear
Amazing work and explanation!
Entertained very much!
Thanks for this. I always like seeing inside synths. Except when I am working on Memorymoogs. Rhodes Chroma, not so bad.
Thanks Scott, I'm interested in this geekery, TBH the old Montage sounded very good to me, now I couldn't have imagined how Yamaha would have been able to improve on that but apparently they did, kudos !
Great overview thanks for sharing. Very excited to see what else the future holds for the Montage M
so much info scott... I might just have to watch the video a couple more times... 😅
Excellent information thanks. I was shocked (no pun intended) when I saw that power supply. I'm still disappointed with Yamaha for the lack of stock in the UK and Europe for the Montage M and it makes me wonder if it is deliberate to keep the prices high.
So cool! Thank you for detailed explanation.
Outstanding. Thank you!
I’m pleasantly surprised at how powerful the CPU is in there! I have a Korg Nautilus which uses a dual-core Intel Atom (I think it runs at 1.9 GHz??) and when it boots up, the fan is very loud. That’s only during the boot-up process thankfully, the fan is otherwise virtually silent.
well, congrats on your Nautilus. I hate KORG because they didn't comply with open source licenses LOL.
I need to stop thinking like an IT guy and more like a musician. But then ... this is still considered stealing (by me, at least).
@@RinaldoJonathan I understand what you mean. It is kind of ironic how both the Nautilus and Montage M are pretty much Linux PCs inside of a keyboard chassis and yet the OS is still proprietary. I’m assuming that’s what you mean anyway?
@@Omega072. no, but that's separate issue with me (that's solved by Montage M's ESP, proving my point that "everything is a VST").
beware : long rant.
the one that I have issue is, KORG is known to use Linux, but never release source code fully. Linux's license is basically "you're free to use and modify (like literally free besides your internet to download), BUT you must publish source code if you sell your creations". That's how Linux (and android) are made, even Microsoft and Google was contributing directly to it, even though they are technically in a competition. BTW, android uses almost same license, and actually uses Linux kernel, and if somehow there's a modification (or security issue) found by android maker - lets say Samsung, and if Samsung fix it, Samsung has to open the source code for the whole Linux community to review and add to upstream, so next time anyone (including Yamaha, or Microsoft and Google) may use it, it's more safer because of Samsung.
and KORG only take it without contributing.
kronoshacker.blogspot.com/2015/05/about-linux-kernel-used-in-korg-kronos.html
I mean you are allowed to just take it without contributing, if :
- you're not actually making anything (not fixing or adding features)
- you're not making commercial product (only for personal uses)
Nobody is preventing you to open your nautilus, replace the CPU with Core i9, run their OS with it, it will run just fine. BUT it will run the same speed and limitations as that Atom it had before. Because the limitations was set in kernel. THEN when you want to modify the kernel (for whatever reason), the source didn't exist.
They HAVE TO give the source code.
I like how BlackBerry and Yamaha comply with this. Yamaha's code even exists here : download.yamaha.com/sourcecodes/synth/
you can modify that kernel source code for whatever reason, BUT you can't run it because Yamaha doesn't use off the shelf chips (they don't use Intel Atom, they use whatever the ARM they might have over there).
BlackBerry literally locked their bootloader, even if you recompile that kernel, you can't run it on BlackBerry (even though it should technically), just because that device is locked and there's no unlock code until today, and the code that can run on BlackBerry must be signed by BlackBerry themselves, instead of you.
KORG have weird security code in their kernel, AND have another open source program configured weirdly in their OS, all without documentation or source code.
Even AKAI's MPC (newer one) technically comply with this (since they use existing CPU, they don't modify kernel - means they don't actually need to release anything)
Other company that I know (or used to) not comply with this is MediaTek. I had an android before, 15 years ago, 4.2 JellyBean, made a custom rom myself, failed because the kernel source code didn't exists. From that moment, I hate companies that didn't comply with this license.
Not because I hate KORG as a musician, they made great stuff. But this ... I'm a musician, but also a programmer. This is kinda sensitive to me.
But then, how many musician are also engineers, especially in IT department? How many of them understand licenses? And then after that, how many of them gives enough fuck? Then how many of those who give a fuck, have enough money to represent Linux Foundation, to sue KORG?
....
Sorry for long rant. Hehe.
Still hoping one day I can afford Montage M :)
Excellent stuff Scott. I'd be very interested to hear more about the internals of the Hydrasynth Deluxe, Fantom & Fantom O models! :)
The hydrasynth will be underwhelming, very, the most interesting thing in there would be to take apart the key bed to see their implementation of poly AT, and the Fantoms, can be done but there not as easy to show on screen because of the way they are build, as stacked boards, so that involves a lot of tearing apart and disconnecting stuff, very different than Yamaha, bu5 I would love to have a peek inside too
Great info as always Scott. I have to wonder though, the MODX+ proves that one SWP70 can do 128 voices of FM-X and 128 voices of AWM2, so why do they have a separate SWP70 for FM-X on the Montages?
I think that foam on the back of the keybed is to either keep dust out now that there’s a fan, or to reduce fan noise escaping from the case.
If it's any consolation, my CLP-860's power supply continues to run great after 24 years of almost daily use---much of it the hard use of a practicing concert pianist. I actually like the idea of being able to replace my Montage M's power supply myself in a decade or two with something so familiar.
Scott, can you give a rough guess what the cost of all these parts and chips are "at cost"? Cheers!
Great content. Roland and Yamaha are due for new hardware when the next Fantom and Montage replacements come into play. Both have stretched the existing chips to the limits.
It’s also crazy when you consider the development of regular CPUs in the time frame since those chips came out. I’m curious if it’s a complete in house development or if they are buying IP from third parties for those chips.
Surely this montage-m is Yamaha's next gen?
Great stuff so does the Modx+ have anything hardware wise like the montage M? What about the DACs, ADC’s OPamps CPU etc. Thanks.
It's very similar to what's in the Montage, but just..."less". Lesser quality DACs, lesser quality op-amps, etc.
Outstanding video! subscribed
Awesome video Scott! Is it possible there would be an OS upgrade for a poly aftertouch for M6/M7 in the years to come? It's possible with other synths.
Not possible. The keybed hardware is completely different.
Very informative video. I've yet to try one out, but I'm hoping one of our Guitar Centers in the area has one on the floor. I know one store did when I called when it came out, but I haven't made it there yet.
While the sound quality of the M is improved, and some of the samples cleaner, for my purpose of playing in cover bands or tribute bands for live performance, I still think the difference in sound between my MODX would be minimal in a full rock band situation. Only if your going to do piano solo without the band or something. Some of those strings might be fuller, but most of the sounds used would probably still be the same or almost the same. The AN-X engine is nice, but.....all the VST analog synth engines are probably going to closer model the sounds I'm after of the original synths.
Portability to a live band is key. A MODX M could be something I'd eventually be interested in. Even better...If Yamaha offered "at reasonable cost" a new upgrade board installed by their service centers to upgrade an original MODX to a MODX M. Surely I'd pay $500 or something like that to upgrade.
MODX + laptop full of VST's still seems like the best solution to me what what I want to do. The Montage M has some nice upgrades, but still relatively smaller compared to what upgrading to the MODX did for me vs my older synths I used previously.
I agree - I would not be dragging a Montage around on tour unless I was a huge artist that had a road crew doing it for me. My live board is a Fantom-06 for this exact reason: compact and lightweight, and still does most of what the big Fantom does.
@@ScottsSynthStuff My Fantom is Roland's VST's on my laptop. I'm generally not that big a fan of Roland's sounds compared to the ones available for the Yamaha though for what I do, which is 80s/70s rock covers. The Fantom is more ideal for synth pop.
Roland offers probably 90+% of what the Fantom 0 does as software that can be run on a laptop. The B3 engine isn't offered, maybe not the arpegitator, nor the Super Natural sounds but I hear there aren't that many in the Fantom 0 to begin with. Zenology offers the same ZenCore sounds and all the synth modeled expansions like the Jupiter 8 and all the sound packs are available as VST's. The regular Fantom has the V-Piano which you can't get as a VST but there are good alternatives in other VST's, same with the B-3 engine. I think there are more super natural sounds on the regular Fantom too. But one huge advantage to the software route is all the more faithful sounding ABC models Roland offers only to computer users that aren't available to their Fantom/Fantom 0 users. These are of desirable synths including the D-50 you can't get for the Fantom's (so far) and also come in a form factor more representative of the original keyboards than the ZenCore models offered for the Fantom's.
The choice that works best for me is my MODX + laptop VST's which include most of the Fantom sounds.
I love this wonky stuff. Please do as many of these as you can. I would love it if you could do this for a high end PSR keyboard.
This board is unbelievable! My GOD! This is the first Yamaha im super excited about since the Motif XF! THIS is what the original Montage should have been!
7:27 Is the fan running all the time. Some people say it is very loud on boot. Does it stop afterwards or lower the speed?
Personally I would prefere that the UI get throttled instead of having a fan. I wonder what would happen if you remove the fan. Will the UI get slower or will the CPU die?
Am I right, the fan is for the UI not for the synth dsp chips?
The fan is for the main CPU, not the DSP chips. Honestly, I have NEVER heard the fan in my Montage unless I put my ear right on top of the case.
@@ScottsSynthStuff Was the room absolutly silent?
Please!! I would love to see those details on MOTIF XF 8 vs MONTAGE M8
Very interesting video. I like your video's about the Montage M
Hah Brilliant. At first I thought you were saying it sounds better when you took the lid off 😂😂 We should spread that as a rumor!
Thanks Scott!
very useful video , thank you . i enjoyed every second of it. please do the same for other keyboard and brands even arrangers like genos 2 or brand like kronos and natilus
Really didn't expect a Clavinova adaptor there LOL
Thanks. Good to know as Arturia has this new MPE full touch key action that's another dimension. I wonder if the M8x is capable of something similar using the GEX/PAT and higher processing power and whether the electromagnetic system can be customized. With the new 2.0 OS forthcoming will the M8x be exactly the same or different? That power brick is nothing new as the $6,000 Genos 2 has exactly the same crap as well as other manufacturers. Obviously that brick will go bad eventually and we'll have to replace it along with the fan.
Here's really hoping Yamaha releases the ESP plugin as a standalone product for those of us who would LOVE to have a montage M but, cannot in any way shape for form afford one.
Considering the specs of the CPU and DSP chips on the Montage M, it makes me wonder how much more it could theoretically do on an advanced CPU/GPU chip like the Apple M3. I also wonder if Yamaha is emulating the hardware inside the synth in ESP or if they have ported the code to run truly natively on Intel and Apple M series ARM chips.
My korg m3 has a PSU like this (not sure if its yamaha) but I wondered if they did it due to the modular frame where you can link another synth with it so maybe it powers that too
Thanks for the interesting video! I wonder about the wavefolding in os 2.0...
Isn't that already in the current version?
There is a wavefolder insert effect currently, but this new feature is wavefolding for the individual AN-X oscillators.
@@ScottsSynthStuff oh, nice to know 👍🏻. Thank you for your kind answer! I hope I'll get my montage m soon. Currently they are hard to get in Europe.
Great video Scott, really enjoyed it.
Thanks Scott for showing Ms guts and an enormous amount of information. Will there be a grey/white version of Montage M ?
I have no idea...but I won't be surprised if a white one comes out eventually.
The weird thing is the output from the Motif XF is amazing, but they really dropped the ball with the original Montage - everything was treble heavy and pianos sounded like Marimbas through a p.a. It’s good to hear that they have improved the output with the M, but really this is just correcting a major flaw in the original Montage.
6:00 Scott, what "word" did you use to describe the power supply set up in this Montage?
Chintzy! 🙂
Hello Scott, very informative video, thanks. 👍
I have a question about AWM2 elements in the new Montage. The manual says "AMW2: 128 Elements (max.)".
The question is, each part can use up to 128 elements, or the AWM2 engine's limit is 128 elements, and these elements can be shared on one or more parts?
With more simple words, can we have, for example, a 4-part performance with 32 elements per part (total 128 elements) or we can have a 4-part performance with up to 128 elements per part (total 512 elements/performance)?
Thanks for any answer.😎
You could do both...but you would end up with massive voice stealing if you had all that sounding at once.
Basically you have 128 preset voices and 128 USER voices. You can distribute those amongst your performance as you see fit. But if you are using up all 128 preset voices on a part that is using factory preset sounds, you don't get any more even if NONE of the user voices are being used.
@@ScottsSynthStuff Yes, i know all that about polyphony, i had the MODX7 and now i'm thinking to buy a Montage M.🙂 The question is specifically about the elements of AWM2 engine. If we can use up to 128 elements per part, we can do crazy things that no other synth can do. For example, we can make a performance of, say, 4 parts, and in each part we can put 128 elements to run in Cycle or Random mode, so we won't have a problem with polyphony. But the potential for sound design here is really enormous.
Excellent review 🙏🙏🙏
I wonder how good is the sequencer, because I have a modx and it can be tedious when it comes to editing.
Nice. Thank you so much for the info and explanation 🙏
I own Motif XF
I’m thinking about upgrading to Montage or Montage M.
How easy is to copy my custom voices / performances / patterns?
Does both Montage and Montage M have realtime pattern playback sequencer with 5 scene mute states / Pattern A-P bar quantize?
Do you know if you can send a song to a daw to midi record it? To include the arpeggiators.
Thanks for showing me my montage M is a million times more valuable. I'm making my own video roasting the montage m and nautilus.
Scott, very good video. Does the original Montage also have a fan?
No, it did not!
Is the first AWM2 chip really only for factory presets, or is it for factory samples? In other words, if you make your own preset using the factory samples, which chip plays your preset (or Voice in Yamaha speak)? By the way, as I recall, the TG500 had two chips that each referenced a different sample ROM way back in the early 90s. An easy way to double the polyphony, at the expense of some flexibility.
Factory SAMPLES, yes. If you make a user preset utilizing a factory sample, it's going to play on that first chip. If you make one using a sample from a library that you have loaded using custom samples, it's going to play on the second chip.
Something you said in your first montage m videos and I don't see mentioned often is that the montage m solved the "one midi input channel - one part" limitation. This was huge for me because I bought a modx 6 with the hopes of using it as a lightweight synth to which I could plug my external 88 key weighted keyboard. This in theory allowed to be able to have a full sized keyboard while still retaining the possibility of a portable setup. My hopes came crashing down when I realized there was no way of controlling more than one part at a time from an external keyboard (at least one with a single fixed midi channel output). Nor was it an option for changing the part that the ext. controller plays, so you can't control different parts with different scenes. And this wasn't even different for the montage. It seems completely insane to me, and I've wondered many times if it was due to hardware limitation or just an option Yamaha purposely wasn't interested in delivering. Now the montage m finally gave us this capability, but the smallest model still is too heavy for it to be as convenient as I wanted.
I don't know if I understood you, bur you can easily control multi part performances with Single or Hybrid MIDI control in the Montage / MODX utility menu.
@@lumer2b That's right, but those two modes basically allow for the external controller to play either only one part or all parts. What is not possible is to have an option similar to the "keyboard control" feature of the built-in keyboard. In other words, you cannot have the external keyboard control different parts with scene changes. I don't even know if this is possible with the montage m, but from what I've gathered you can select a specific subset of parts to control, in contrast to controlling only one or all at the same time.
@@teo_lp Ah I see. You can store the 'keyboard control on/off" state for each part in different scenes, so I think it should be possible to change scene and have it play a different part (with MIDI mode Single or Hybrid it will play whatever parts have 'keyboard on').
Thanks for the info, this power block puts me off.😂
Really great video. I was wondering if there is any way to somehow "copy" some of preset sounds into user memory so that I can use built in sounds however physically stored as user sound and thus taking advantage of double polyphony. Such guide would be really priceless 🙂
As far as I know, there is no way to copy the actual factory samples into user memory outside of actually sampling them (i.e. Sample Robot). So it's not impossible, but it wouldn't be easy.
@@ScottsSynthStuff Unless Yamaha provides an expansion to load up as long as it's not proprietary content because I had already asked the exact same question. It appears to be a total waste of that chip and 128 poly because what if some of us never load anything? I'd rather have a duplicate of the internal ROM and double the AWM2 options.
Hello, is it possible now touse I SP without Heading Montage M.? Thanks for Anyanzer Rainer
Hi Scott, excellent video, I could do the same thing with the new fantom.
The new Fantom (hardware wise) is identical to the old Fantom, actually.
@@ScottsSynthStuff So, in terms of hardware, the Fantom EX (New Fantom) is similar to the Fantom G (Previous version of the Fantom)?
@@LeandroSantos-jv4ex no, that is the previous generation. The current Fantom came out in 2019. The new Fantom EX is identical in terms of hardware to the 2019 Fantom, the only difference being the operating system.
I see, but have you made a video showing the New Fantom's hardware in detail like this Montagem M video? If so, I don't think I've watched it yet.
how do you open up the montage m?
With 32bit architecture the hope for increased user flash memory is out of the window, but you mentioned sata support. What could this potentially mean?
It means the CPU is capable of it, but there is no circuitry on the board that shows that Yamaha has any intention of implementing it.
Yes my good Man......could You check the Fluids...and the Fan is squeeling....a little WD-40 will remedy that. ❤.....GREAT VIDEO SCOTT!!!!
Anyone...
Any guesses when the new MODX (MODX-m) will be due ??
Considdered all the features the new CPU have, it's kinda weired why they havn't used some of them to adapt a way of having samples on an sdcard of some kind. to swap sample sets in and out. Even the type used has different speeds, in my mind it should be sufficient to move 4-5gb reasonable fast, I mean they use EMMC memory which isn't especially fast compared to hi speed DDR and SDD storage in many raspberry pi or other single board computers and compatibles to load the OS. It only need to be fast enough to move those avg 5gb max of samples once in a while. The instrument could have a small dock underneath where you could easy mount 1 or 2 cards of anything between 16 and whatever max size a compatible type of memory it supports. It would just be used like you used a harddisk in the old days to store anything from samples to midifiles.. etc. It's kinda the same as with some computer parts .. they have a chip that is able to give you USB 3.1 but it has to go thru an usb 2 switch, how silly is that. Its the same as hdmi 2.1 has been out for years but Monitor brands keep giving us new Monitors that only has 2.0 just to save a few bucks and people then have to live with 60Hz thru hdmi on a panel that supports 240 hz. The world is silly.
It's not a new CPU, the architecture is 14 years old, the sitara chip itself is at least 10 years old. It's hilariously underpowered compared to the likes of the pi powered korg synths, AN-X is only 16 voices because the a15 CPU is barely fast enough to do that.
@@lewisd56 In synth language or timeline, 10 years old is really new because synths are trickle down technology else they'd be double the cost. If they sold like I-phones the latest tech would be cheap as dirt because of the law of supply and demand. In comparison, no one is/are demanding synths from the general mass of population. There's no money or not much in making synths but I'm glad someone is doing it.
does it have a better, more reliable touch display?...i'm one of those, probably rare cases with a montage 6, that has a touch display that only reacts correct after 30 to 45 minutes 'warming up' time, wich is weird (calibrating does not help) with only in house use...i'm concidering buying this as a replacement.
I've had a MODX, Montage, and now a Montage M, and none of them have ever had that problem. The touch display on the new Montage is the same as the old one.
@@ScottsSynthStuff thanks, i stil going to buy the m6 afteral, hoping i get a somewhat reasonable price for my current montage.
Thanks Scott! I'm not too knowledgeable about the techy stuff, so I wanted to ask if it is possible for the ANX polyphony to increase with future updates, or is the ANX polyphony limited to the current internal components? Is that a reasonable question...ha? Thanks :)
It's likely limited to what the CPU can do today.
@@ScottsSynthStuff Ok, thanks a lot.
🙋♂️ Hi Scott - Great Job... 👍
Greetz from (occupied) Germoney... 😢
Yowza, that PSU is janky AF. There must be some sort of "rub and buzz" thing going on that the foam strips solve.
The sitara chip is still hillariously underpowered, the a15 architecture is 14 years old and no longer supported by ARM, the last release with it was in 2015!, the M4s are probably faster despite running at 1/6th the speed.
The OG montage/modx used an archaic Arm9 CPU if i recall, an architecture from the 90s discontinued in the mid 2000s but still used for some reason by TI.
It needs a fan because its an ancient 40nm chip that drinks power and performs like a 2010 smartphone. The most useful things in it are the DSPs, but if yamaha did a korg and just used the significantly (we are talking magnitudes) faster pi compute modules or similar, evetything could run on the CPU anyway.
The a15 has an FPU, the Arm9 CPU in the old systems doesnt have an FPU.
Dont give yamaha credit for using a 10 year old chip that they could have used in the OG systems.
could agree there. But we're talking about "embedded system". It runs very stripped down version of Linux. It can run fast because it runs so little, with so little demands, on an extensively tested platform which you can optimize the code line by line. Even today, still so many ATMs run Windows XP or 7, with little to no issues, with Pentium 4 to Core2Duo. What do you expect it to do, run Furmark?
I can see Yamaha taking MONTAGE like it's a military computer. It "doesn't do much", optimized as hell, and can actually take beating. Yes Yamaha can upgrade it to newest CPU, yes you can upgrade local ATMs with Core i9, but somewhere somehow your ATM will crash just because Windows XP doesn't like Core i9 Extreme over there (and can't utilize it anyway, or have use of it), so why bother?
I had a code before that runs fine on Arduino Uno, but crashes on Arduino Mega. I bought Mega "just because I can", not because I (or the code) needs it. And it bite me hard.
There will be stupid edge cases. So for me, avoid it with all costs.
@@RinaldoJonathan Linux itself is simply the kernel. Yamaha by law has to release the kernel sources. 'stripped down' just means it's not running all of the standard GNU apps. It's still the exact same Linux used on pretty much any other system.
The expectation is that Yamaha uses slightly more modern hardware, korg and Roland are managing it, and Roland still uses it's own ASICs. There's nothing cheap about the chips Yamaha is using either, it would cost them less to use more up to date hardware.v
But the guarantee is now gone! ;-) In any case, everything is very tidy and you can probably fix most things yourself if you have the spare part. It would have been interesting to see what the hard drive looked like?
great video, thx!
We're gonna need a Montage montage.
Waiting for the white edition
USER Presets do not provide another 128 voice poly. The correct onfo is ONLY if the USER or LIBRARY(s) have NEW or additional waves/samples! You just can't create a user patch from a factory sound. It must contain new samples. The same is true if you load or alter and save a Library perfromance...ONLY if it contains new samples.
Correct. If your new performance only uses factory samples, it shares the polyphony of the first SWP70 chip. Only if you are playing performances utilizing loaded libraries with samples does the second SWP70 get used with its own polyphony. It's about the samples (stored on the flash memory connected to the SWP70 chip), not the performances utilizing those samples.
@@ScottsSynthStuff Thanks Scott regarding the 2nd SWP70 chip's role in this. BTW, I liked the whole Senior presentation on the original Montage. Hope you guys do one for this new version!
This scared the bejezus out of me :)
Hi Scott! Are you expecting Yamaha to offer a keyboard upgrade to poly aftertouch? With love, Ken
There is no facility in the existing M6 and M7 for polyphonic aftertouch. Also, polyphonic aftertouch keybeds need to be individually calibrated to the synth at the factory before shipping.
@@ScottsSynthStuff I think he might mean to the M8x
@@ScottsSynthStuff ok, thanks!
I highly doubt Yamaha is using CANBus - that's a low bandwidth interface/protocol mostly used in the automotive industry. Guessing the TI CPU is an off-the-shelf part intended for a variety of verticals - just because it has SATA doesn't mean Yamaha will ever use it, especially if they didn't add all the other required components to the mainboard.
I'm very familiar with CANBus actually, and there are some serial interconnected components...but without the service manual, I'm just guessing at this point. And you're right, this is a processor meant for all kinds of vertical applications, and there is no visible support for SATA or most of the other things I mentioned anywhere on the PCB.
I chuckle when watching this vid. This thing reminds me of Omnisphere (soft synth) or the Kontakt user library, both of which are a classic case of "jack of all trades, good for nothing." Yamaha crams a million (mostly useless) patches into an incredibly puny (by today's standards) 10 GB to try to up the marketing wow factor. More is always better, right? This thing is basically a computer with a keybed attached to it - just like your PC. Only your PC (or Mac) is a jillion times more powerful and is UPGRADEABLE. The poor Kronos and now Nautilus, for example, suffer from dated hardware fatigue.
Why then, does it cost so much? Because robots can't spit out these things by the thousands - a lot of handwork is involved. Plus, they cost a ton to ship due to their size and weight. You can buy an inexpensive motherboard and a very powerful CPU to go with it which would dance circles around this thing, and load that PC build with terabytes worth of storage (and samples) and 64 GB of ram, etc.
Is there a place in today's market for this keyboard? Answer: not much of one. Sound designers would love it, and you could do a whole movie soundtrack with it. But everyone else - bread and butter guys - not so much. And hauling it to a gig? - eh, I don't know. I'd hate for a beer bottle to come flying at it. And in the studio you'd be crazy to invest in this thing instead of a controller hooked up to a (powerful) computer running WAY more powerful soft synths.
The REAL appeal of this thing: Its keybed. It's the best. It's a "goldilocks" action that works for pianists and synth players alike. But you can basically get that keybed going back to the Korg M1 all the way thru the Korg Oasys.
I'd give serious consideration to lowering your sights (and budget) and going with a much lower-cost option. And this goes for the Roland Fantom, too - which is a nutty overkill board as well. Developers have just hit a wall with these things, and there's nowhere left to go beyond a lot of pretty flashing lights.
Remember, it's all about the music, not an expensive playtoy. You want a solid daily driver like a Camry - not a Corvette, for which the shine wears off very quickly. Think about composing a song - not about a keyboard that will compose it for you.
Korg does the same stuff with the power supply and in a much worse way. I don't feel it's a problem here, in fact standard parts make for much easier servicing (also reduces manufacturing costs). What really strikes me is the M appears to be a hacked-together evolution of the classic rather than a new design. It's a more-of-what-we-know thing, arranged in a weird split personality way (one for presets, one for user performances) instead of a new unifying architecture. It is still an amazing keyboard but I have the feel Yamaha overpromised and underdelivered (or lets say we were all overhyping this ourselves):
- No new higher resolution capacitive screen
- The HDMI output (which is now directly on the sitara chip) does not come to an external port
- No polyphonic aftertouch on the 6 and 7 where people are more probable to want/need it.
Looks like I will skip this generation.
Its not a new strategy in synths, its been used as far back as 2000 in the waldorf Xtk except the power brick was rotated so the cord plugged into it directly through back of the case.
Wow
The fan will eventually start screeching like the old worn out PC power supply fans.
That was my thought.....every fan has a lifetime and will sooner or later start signing their own melody....
Yeah 😂
The team at Yamaha is very small, much smaller than I had thought. And they are budget starved. Not surprised at all about the power supply.
You won't hear the difference between a good quality 16 bit and a 24 bit samples.
Better converters might have an effect indeed.
Easier to change and find a power supply. I like it.
The power supply is kind of janky. Even the older Motif XS has the better power supply as the older Montage. Cost savings perhaps?
Definitely a well made instrument. Not some Celeron based... Korg? Do You see?
The Raspberry Pi compute module used on the newer Korgs is much more powerful than this chip.
The fan on the montage M is quite noisy. This is the first time I have a synth (idle) that makes as noise as a laptop (when CPU is working hard) that's my only regret with the Montage M.
That's odd...I have NEVER actually heard the fan on my Montage M7 until I opened it up to make this video. For all I know, it could have been inoperative. It does sound louder in this video, because I put the camera and microphone RIGHT NEXT to it, but even with the top open I had to bend down close to it to actually hear it myself.
@@ScottsSynthStuff Scott, I have auditioned 6 seperate MMs, and 2 of them had noisy fans...stock cheap fans actually do vary in constuction enough that this does happen. I always replace fans with high grade ones, and use rubber or silicon washers. The fan is a deal breaker for me. I have an original Montage and it sounds excellent.
Respectfully, does comparing 0.0016 % THD with 0.0008% make any sense ? If yes, was the old Montage just sh*t in terms of audio quality, despite being Yamaha's Synthesizer top-line for several years ?
From a memory perspective, it sure was, and is. With a Boesendorfer Piano and some a bit thicker multisamples it was already full, a bit later than the MODX, but still easy to reach its memory capacity. While other brands were able to implement standard SSDs. And I fear, the technological advancement is not that great. Now there is a fan. While very silent, fans do tend to degrade mechanical. Coming from a no-fan engine and going to be fan-dependent seems to me counter-cyclical, too. Processors get faster by using less and less power, yes ?
The software got an overhaul and utilizes a second display, but I cannot fathom anyone who has already a Montage would long after the new M.
-- 😊👍🎹
When the Montage M vst plugin will be available for all I will sell my Montage 6. Today lots of bands use a Mac and Mainstage with plugins. M4 or Arm processors today are enough powerful to run multiple instances of our hardware synths. See for example the OsTirus, it's the 1:1 emulation of the Motorola cpu + the Virus os. I have many vst plugins from Korg and some of the Roland Cloud, all of them sound great. I never will buy a new hw synth.
fans are disturbing because fan are getting worse in time...i'm very disappointed to see a fan here...