I fly larger ships generally. Mostly the 600i. have found tremendous success fighting smaller fighters by decoupling my flight, hitting max SCM speed amd turning 180 degrees to return size 5 Alpha on fighters trying to keep up and do their orbit flank to exploit my lack of mobility. Its very difficult for players to rotate around my ship unless they decouple themselves also. At which point i can control whatever shield face they see. It's a defensive tactic but it has kept me safe in pyro. Ive taken cocky hornets, guardians, and hurricanes with this method.
Does that work on light fighters if they keep distance? You can only hit them when they are like closer than 2km right? If they are over that distance, they can still hit you, but they would be too small for you to hit. Just a little wiggle and they would shrug off all the shots from you.
@brockoala2994 That really depends on your loadout. I typically keep the M7As for crazy alpha damage. Usually ends the fight in a few volleys. But if your only concern is chipping them kind of like the vid mentions. You can run ballistic gatlings or even 3 Galdereens for triple the fire rate and higher velocity for smaller ships.
@brockoala2994 also no, because on larger ships your guns generally have more range than size 2 or 3 weapons. S5 Galdereen repeaters have a max range of 3km and a 1200m/sec velocity. Very good at taking pesky snub craft. Namely on a Connie, or 600i. You're basically making a very very risky uphill battle for a fighter. Because in order to orbit you they have to make complex maneuvers. And if they mess up. They have to fly in a straight line to make up lost distance. And you only need to sight them for a few seconds to end the fight.
@@BrokenImmersions they all say the same shit. And they all try. Then they get hit by a single M7A volley and their shields are gone and have a torque imbalance. You won't be bullying this 600i is all I'm saying. Not unless you're cool with orbiting my ship in an archimedes for 20+ minutes.
The ability you have to breakdown a vast topic into it's fundamentals for digestible takeaways is really impressive. Thanks for keeping us up to speed man, was waiting for this MM updated video!
It's funny every time CIG tries to do a dogfight the way they want, the ships always end up fighting in rotation cycles. The video is super well explained, my friend!!
WOW! First time viewer. Excellent video. Live coaching is a great format. Breaking down the fancy flying you see from top light fighter pilots in digestible bites. Will rewatch this a few times.
Great video, I've been looking for someone who will break down the fight like this. I can clearly see what it is that people have been doing against me and why now.
I think this is my favourite vid of yours so far in explaining the reasoning behind your strategies! I'd love to see something on fighter vs interceptor in MM
Don’t stop making videos dude. I make piracy content on my TikTok and have had some success. I 10000% rely on you keeping me ahead of the curve on the PvP aspect of piracy. Keep it up! We need you! Also since I’m not on my main I’m going to also say the dev who is making this flight model is totally ineffective, clearly doesn’t understand flight, and should be replaced. 😊
Love your explanation on it. Micro battle's. Before master modes. This was insanely hard to do. You always cam in to hot to fast. But could run . Now it's do or die. No more running CIG just lowered the skill Gap for new players.
Been waiting for this one, Winters, very nicely done as usual. Any chance we get your thoughts on top PvP ships in current meta? Not necessarily just fighters.
Nice explanation on these concepts man. Master Mode threw me off when it came out and it definitely reset the battlefield in terms of how ship to ship combat concepts work. I'm gonna try some of these out.
Great Video ! Altough i don't agree on the "don't try to fight people that are better than you"... i understand the breathing room you have when fighting weaker opponents, but when fighting stronger opponents you tend to understand better what mistakes makes you die quickly.... in the old flight model when i was just starting out flying in my ships i immediately recognized which manouvers made me die quicker, and so i developed a more "defensive fly style" where the whole fght would be more of a dance where i would avoid your shots and then empty my magazines when you were out of ammo... but i guess everyone has it's own learning style
At the time I believe he was talking about practicing this particular style of fighting against slightly weaker opponents until I get more comfortable with it and iron out the timing. I regularly fight above my weight class and trying new tactics against those guys is especially punishing.
thanks for the nice teaching video :) And without ranting about Master Modes you highlight in a kinda charmful way how ***** MasterModes STILL is for pvp combat 😅😅
I ended up getting rid of most of my fighters for two reason: 1. They'll be easiest to earn in-game so there's no point in owning them with IRL money; 2. These tutorials have taught me it's way too hard for me to learn how to dogfight, there's simply too much with so little time.
For me, when it comes to down-strafing, it's much harder to hit boost with left shift on M&K. I need more practice... Up-strafing, I can use all my fingers for movement. One day, I might try HOSAM, but I might need to change a keybind for boost, possibly. I've had no in-game training, but I enjoy these videos! Thank you!
All these ships have huge main thrusters. None of the other thrusters should be as powerful as them in terms of acceleration or speed. The "egg shaped maneuvering bubble" that Yogi talked about should absolutely be a thing. Another thing is, the main engine produces the source of thrust for all thrust nozzles. It should be divided between main thrust and maneuvering thrust. The maneuvering thrust should be shared among all aux thrusters and main thrust only between forward and retro thrusters with limitations to retro thrust to avoid "kiting". I'm all for 6-DOF space flight and fighting, but without any kind of limitations, we're nothing but floating turrets and there's no energy based combat like in atmo with gravity. CR wants WW2 dogfighting in space, but WW2 dogfights were energy fights. Speed = Life. Either you're more powerful engine can help keep your speed up (kinetic) or your position (potential) can win the fight. In space, there is no positional advantage, only speed. With these ridiculous acceleration rates, speed is pointless.
Not disagreeing with anything else you say here, but SC ships have independent MAVs, not thrust nozzles. I definitely agree that longitudinal thrust should generally be an order of magnitude stronger than laterals (though clearly the Mirais and Apoas are a different breed). But I've been having that conversation (loudly) since at least 2016.
@@galathirgames My most issue in SC with flight model was always the slow flying ships.. few hundred m per sec in a 1000years distant future? And why they have max speed when there is no drag in space? It doesnt make any sense.. Also, i would love to have decoupled Yaw/pitch/roll option.. But SC is more and more going from sim to arcady crap.. and it makes my nerd inside sad..
@mikecapson1845 CR wants WW2 in space. Has always said so. Also, the engine became a desycy mess at 1km/sec. That's why there are no uncapped speeds. The rest is irrelevant. None of this is news, either, frankly. These facts have been in evidence for years at this point.
Thanks for the vid, much appreciated! How were you practicing like that against each other? Sorry, just edited.. I see it's AC where you're practicing but what mode? How would I do this with a buddy?
After an M7 Hornet with Rhino or Attraction gun loadout I would definitely chose a Gladius with A similar gun loadout. The M7 Hornet seems to be the current meta right now in 4.0. Currently, 4.0 only favor brawler close combat over longer ranged sniper fighters (Saber) or hit and run fighting (Buccaneer). Anyhow they are working on Master Modes 2.0 and that might change the dynamic of dog fighting.
I bet it would make the game even more Arcade like, instead of proper space sim :/ .. probably its a design choice, to make a game more atractive and less scary for new players, that they can suck money from on ship sales..
the dodging most only work in gladius and light fighters cause when I tried to dodge in a hornet with the strafes I got hit with every shot unfortunately....
Out of curiosity, is this done entirely decoupled? Ill have to get used to that, I never fly decoupled (I don't do much PvP and in PvE, it hasn't affected me too much yet)
@@jonathanpatry You see where the ESP icon is on the left side, above q-fuel and h fuel? if coupled is on there would be a icon above ESP "CPLD. I never saw it on during the video but I've might have missed it Edit: it should be under the ESP, not above my mistake
@JohnathanWinters well, I did watch them, but that was quite some time ago and I did not put it into practise much. I probably played like 10h throughout the whole 2024. Will get back to basics then!
@@JohnathanWinters 32:9 here and lowest i can go is 123 fov… have you noticed esp acting more like an oval because of the high aspect ratio then remaining a circle despite the high AR? Meaning your not getting the same esp “feel” from the four corners of your monitor as you do from the left and right and still different from top to bottom?
Funny I didn't have a name for it but I have been doing the same thing with my HOTAS. I have been pushing my throttle to about 30-50% foward thrust and 20-50% up or down strafe.
God this meta sucks. Nice to see you back at it though dude, let's hope maybe they learn their lesson after this next major flight model change (where they're claiming combat is still too fast 🙄) Also, for everyone, the Talon is the atmo version of the Gladdy fyi
I am so glad you are back! Your videos are at least possible to understand. I find that Avenger's have lots of great sounding words, but they are just incomprehensible when you get into the practicalities of it. There is one thing that I think really needs to be talked about (and Avenger doesn't get this): Decoupled mode makes everyone else stand still, apart from how they accelerate, because now you are flying at relative speed. The truth is that all speed is relative, this is known since Galileo. There is no absolute speed, and there is no absolute standing still. Most of the game is a lie about speed, with your speed bar, space dust, contrails, etc. all lying to you. The only truth the game gives you are target relative speed and distance. To really see the scope of this, you need a friend flying straight and level in NAV mode at a fixed high speed, then you come to a stop relative them (in decoupled) and notice how you move around them *exactly* like moving around an asteroid in decoupled. Because they are in fact standing still. There is no difference to moving around your fast friend or an asteroid, because your friend is standing still relative you, like the asteroid. There is no absolute standing still. You can't even use the sun as reference, because the sun isn't standing still; it is orbiting the galactic centre. The galaxy is moving through the local group, etc. There is no global reference point in space that things can stand still in relation to. That is what makes Master Modes so stupid, because it solves an issue that the game itself creates. High speed doesn't exist. The high speed that Master Modes fixes is a world pulled down over our eyes to hide reality. If the main speed bar was our relative speed to our target, and the arbitrary absolute speed the speed bar usually shows was entirely removed, we would never joust. Decoupled means that you can ignore whatever speed your target is flying at, since they are standing still. Only their acceleration matters. Knowing this, seeing through the lie, has made me a far better fighter pilot.
i would say this is the current dueling meta, but team fights this makes you to predictable to a 3rd party, so doing traditional knife fighting in a group fight is still better
@JohnathanWinters no one puts that disclaimer in their videos. That this is a good style for dueling or 1v1s in the verse but in group fights these tactics may not work. Back in last flight model the ac dueling flight style worked for group fights, but master modes we are seeing differences now. The duelist vs the fighter.
This appears much more complex and interesting than the previous flight model that was basically just jousting (at least at my level and from my experience). I'm loving learning these new MM !
This flight model is significantly LESS complex. There are far fewer options to choose from now. Jousting was just a result of not having throttle control which was part of the reason they dumbed down flight in the first place: most people couldn't control their ships.
It is hard to understand. The guy is on top of you, you dont have your pip dead on him and you say "this is neutral" while in your other videos neutral means pip dead on.
Great, for years I was fighting competitively WW1 and WW2 era ships, not so much jets , I'm feeling like I need something refreshing, I think why not to try space combat 😊
@@JohnathanWinters They are two separate things as far as I understand. The minimal understanding I have of a rate fight is that it's "the difference between a 1 pass (or 1 circle) fight" vs "a fight that goes for more than just a single pass/circle". On the single pass engagement, the aircraft with the better turning radius wins. On the multi pass engagement, the aircraft with the better turn rate wins. With that in mind, this is not the concept being discussed in the video, though it's related to it naturally. The binary circle being referenced in the video is to my understanding the overall maneuver/method of maintaining a circle to begin with; in this case, engaging a downstrafe as you turn into a pass in a way that allows for the circle to be maintained thereafter by only needing to apply forward thrust and aiming on target; at least until someone horizontally strafes really hard to maybe return to neutral.
@@castlewhale4746 my understanding of a rate fight is that both parties are locked in a turn rate fight as you said BUT they are not passing each other but are locked in a circle (as shown in the video) almost facing each other and it’s a fight to get nose on first. I can see how this slightly differs from the techniques in the video but the fight depicted is essentially pushed into the classic rate fight position
Sorry to hear that. As a new player (began in 3.22), master modes were absolutely a relief because the old model was too much confusing and hard to learn in the first place. It was very unfunny being destroyed without even understand how and why. With master modes I was being able to understand what was going on without checking tutorials or data outside of the game. But yeah for the old players that knew the system for a long time it must have been sad to lose it all. I think the direction the game is going into is way better for a mmo tho. We just have to get rid of the very not instinctive way we switch modes. But I think the devs are working on this way.
so i just dont have the right ship but this meta is really just as absurdly bad as i thought. have given up entirely on combat thanks to FPS changes and MasterCrap and anytime i catch a video on how to do flight now it just reinforces more that it's really shit now. cool.
Okay so I sacked Circe strafe and applied these methods and had huge success in Squadron Battle for the last 2 hours I’ve just been playing , great tips especially the dodge it’s satisfying watching those shots fly past you 😂
Hell yeah dude. Now your goal should be how to reapply some of the circle strafe theory to the method that works to diversify it and discover something new.
@ how I noticed this method worked was going against players I often come across in AC and normally they take the win but today I was killing them , yeah your right always good to mix it up and keep them guessing it’s another string to now I can use . Thank you
I played last night after a break since 2.18. The flight in this game is absolutely horrid. 300 dollar ships that "float" around. Since I took that break I had been back on Elite , a game I have played for its entire life. ED feels orders of magnitude better and "faster" to play. Its crazy how bad flight in this game is. I lost all interest after 4 or so hours. I thought this was supposed to be a sim but its really not. It is way closer to NMS and Everspace. NMS has terrible flight too. Its just there to get you around and that is exactly what SC feels like. Everspace is way better in the flight department too. I dont get it. They are about to make a game that would have cool 10 years ago. Its a Starfield all over agin. I knew something was very wrong when I watched the SQ42 demo and the combat sections were basically slo mo monwy shots... This game is a big oof incoming..m Shame really.
@@briangueringer3673 welcome to Master Modes. In 2024, CIG decided to completely destroy the flightmodel, take most of the skill out of it and make it into an arcadey nonsensical mess.
Star Citizen is an mmo intended for broad audiences and a huge diversity of playstyles. It was never meant to be a niche space flight sim with limited appeal and minimal return on investment. The fights are intended to be like WWII in space, like Star Wars, not hard-core detailed like DCS. Go back to Elite if that's your vibe.
@@Hylanvahr That‘s what they promised, though. And that‘s what they gladly took our money for. No one expects Star Citizen to be like DCS. They are way too incompetent to pull that off. We just want a flightmodel that is remotely physics based and that allows for skill expression
@@JohnathanWinters It would be nice if they would just realize they're making a space game and lean into it instead of hanging on to the dream of WWII in space, which ruins the fun of space combat.
My theory is they tend to make Flight model, and whole system more pleasable to new players, instead of pleasing the old, loyal ones.. They are slowly shifting from sim, to arcade .. (the complexity of MFDs for example, the new magic space break, the ship speeds being slow as todays 5gen fighters in atmo, despite being 1000years in future.., and dont get me talk about how max speed shall work in 0g, where there is no drag... and so much more..) I think its due to money, old players already have around 1000bucks in game, and dont tend to spend more, so they are forcing the mechanics to be attractive and less scary for new players, which will end up spending money
@@mikecapson1845 i couldnt agree more. Games of skill are a conflict of interest in regards to profit as the more skilled you get the less amount of people can do it but i still desperatly hope they leave us room to work with and let the less skilled be crew members lol
we had backstafers. we had wigglers. we had aim racers. now get ready for circlers, they already all embraced this gameplay in ac. How to turn dogfight into the worst evolution possible ever. CIG doesn't help, for sure, but the community makes his best to turn the game into a fortnite-like.
i aint gon lie... this sh!t is CRINGE to fight. everybody flys like this now. i mean no disrespect. Youve really created a wave in the AC community with this one. i just hate fighting it cuz its so dificult to fight for a position now cuz eveyones speeds are just sooo through the roof its crazy.
I don't make these videos to showcase that I can beat X player. Everyone loses if you play enough. If you can't tell someone is good or not by how they fly then you need to improve yourself.
Im a bit confused about you saying that your old tutorial still work. Didn't they remove most mechanics like tri-chording which you taught before? Im a new player that currently doesnt play because of master modes since it seems so dull and not worth learning
I fly larger ships generally. Mostly the 600i. have found tremendous success fighting smaller fighters by decoupling my flight, hitting max SCM speed amd turning 180 degrees to return size 5 Alpha on fighters trying to keep up and do their orbit flank to exploit my lack of mobility. Its very difficult for players to rotate around my ship unless they decouple themselves also. At which point i can control whatever shield face they see. It's a defensive tactic but it has kept me safe in pyro. Ive taken cocky hornets, guardians, and hurricanes with this method.
Does that work on light fighters if they keep distance? You can only hit them when they are like closer than 2km right? If they are over that distance, they can still hit you, but they would be too small for you to hit. Just a little wiggle and they would shrug off all the shots from you.
@brockoala2994 That really depends on your loadout. I typically keep the M7As for crazy alpha damage. Usually ends the fight in a few volleys. But if your only concern is chipping them kind of like the vid mentions. You can run ballistic gatlings or even 3 Galdereens for triple the fire rate and higher velocity for smaller ships.
@brockoala2994 also no, because on larger ships your guns generally have more range than size 2 or 3 weapons. S5 Galdereen repeaters have a max range of 3km and a 1200m/sec velocity. Very good at taking pesky snub craft. Namely on a Connie, or 600i. You're basically making a very very risky uphill battle for a fighter. Because in order to orbit you they have to make complex maneuvers. And if they mess up. They have to fly in a straight line to make up lost distance. And you only need to sight them for a few seconds to end the fight.
@@Auldus 600i? 🤣🤣 you must be running into week old players
@@BrokenImmersions they all say the same shit. And they all try. Then they get hit by a single M7A volley and their shields are gone and have a torque imbalance. You won't be bullying this 600i is all I'm saying. Not unless you're cool with orbiting my ship in an archimedes for 20+ minutes.
The ability you have to breakdown a vast topic into it's fundamentals for digestible takeaways is really impressive. Thanks for keeping us up to speed man, was waiting for this MM updated video!
It's funny every time CIG tries to do a dogfight the way they want, the ships always end up fighting in rotation cycles. The video is super well explained, my friend!!
WOW! First time viewer. Excellent video. Live coaching is a great format. Breaking down the fancy flying you see from top light fighter pilots in digestible bites. Will rewatch this a few times.
Great video, I've been looking for someone who will break down the fight like this. I can clearly see what it is that people have been doing against me and why now.
I think this is my favourite vid of yours so far in explaining the reasoning behind your strategies!
I'd love to see something on fighter vs interceptor in MM
At last best star citizen combat guides are back!!!
Love your work!
YOU’RE BACK!! Love to see your videos again. Loved you on the recent podcast man. Keep up the good work bro.
Love the way you break it all down with no fluff
Hey, that's my friend Deadwreckin! Nice training session, thanks for sharing.
Nice breakdown in this one!
11:19 Neutralize, Dodge, Down-strafe, Damage. If you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge a laser.
Hahaha
"wth did you just do there?" How I feel normally with Johnathan. Good stuff, JW.
Glad to see you back at it!
Thank you for sharing how to fight and making it simple for us
Don’t stop making videos dude. I make piracy content on my TikTok and have had some success. I 10000% rely on you keeping me ahead of the curve on the PvP aspect of piracy. Keep it up! We need you!
Also since I’m not on my main I’m going to also say the dev who is making this flight model is totally ineffective, clearly doesn’t understand flight, and should be replaced. 😊
@@mr_finance5196 haha glad it's helped man.
Love your explanation on it. Micro battle's. Before master modes. This was insanely hard to do. You always cam in to hot to fast. But could run . Now it's do or die. No more running CIG just lowered the skill Gap for new players.
Yeah you're properly back. Its about time 🔥
Really nicely explained, thanks chad
Been waiting for this one, Winters, very nicely done as usual. Any chance we get your thoughts on top PvP ships in current meta? Not necessarily just fighters.
just for this random lesson I didn't know I needed, u get one more sub.
Always enjoy seeing your take, sir o7!
Thats the way to explain the fundamentals! Thanks!
I look forward to the notification going off when I see a JW video
I wish you had someone else recording this, for science.
I'm new to SC and I think I've found a mentor.
Great video and explanation. GG
Thanks, subscribed
Great bit of information. Thank you citizen
Everything is so on point, thanks.
Nice explanation on these concepts man. Master Mode threw me off when it came out and it definitely reset the battlefield in terms of how ship to ship combat concepts work. I'm gonna try some of these out.
Great Video !
Altough i don't agree on the "don't try to fight people that are better than you"... i understand the breathing room you have when fighting weaker opponents, but when fighting stronger opponents you tend to understand better what mistakes makes you die quickly.... in the old flight model when i was just starting out flying in my ships i immediately recognized which manouvers made me die quicker, and so i developed a more "defensive fly style" where the whole fght would be more of a dance where i would avoid your shots and then empty my magazines when you were out of ammo... but i guess everyone has it's own learning style
Well to improve you have to fight better players, But to first get a comfortable footing, I do not recommend it.
At the time I believe he was talking about practicing this particular style of fighting against slightly weaker opponents until I get more comfortable with it and iron out the timing. I regularly fight above my weight class and trying new tactics against those guys is especially punishing.
We really need a tacview for SC. I understand what he's talking about but it's difficult for me to visualize the movements 😢
glad to see content thanks !!
Thank you for your continual help. Next time if you could provide throttle and stick input, that would be much appreciated.
The infamous gladius pip wiggle lol
thanks for the nice teaching video :)
And
without ranting about Master Modes you highlight in a kinda charmful way how ***** MasterModes STILL is for pvp combat 😅😅
Well done! More of that
Heyyy Winters you're back!!!
@@rycop ryyyy
Reminds me of circle and double circle dogfights just vertical not horizontal. Very interesting.
Yeah it's a lot like jet gun fights. Only we can point our nose at the other while still maneuver the same way.
Thank you for the info and showing it in use, hoping to start applying it! Where do you stand on CF's vs NDB's in 4.0 PvP meta?
CF's since mid range is so prevalent and pushing away people is easy in this model.
I ended up getting rid of most of my fighters for two reason: 1. They'll be easiest to earn in-game so there's no point in owning them with IRL money; 2. These tutorials have taught me it's way too hard for me to learn how to dogfight, there's simply too much with so little time.
For me, when it comes to down-strafing, it's much harder to hit boost with left shift on M&K. I need more practice... Up-strafing, I can use all my fingers for movement. One day, I might try HOSAM, but I might need to change a keybind for boost, possibly. I've had no in-game training, but I enjoy these videos! Thank you!
Mouse 4/5 forward and back. Wsad for Strafes. Qe roll.
All these ships have huge main thrusters. None of the other thrusters should be as powerful as them in terms of acceleration or speed. The "egg shaped maneuvering bubble" that Yogi talked about should absolutely be a thing.
Another thing is, the main engine produces the source of thrust for all thrust nozzles. It should be divided between main thrust and maneuvering thrust. The maneuvering thrust should be shared among all aux thrusters and main thrust only between forward and retro thrusters with limitations to retro thrust to avoid "kiting". I'm all for 6-DOF space flight and fighting, but without any kind of limitations, we're nothing but floating turrets and there's no energy based combat like in atmo with gravity.
CR wants WW2 dogfighting in space, but WW2 dogfights were energy fights. Speed = Life. Either you're more powerful engine can help keep your speed up (kinetic) or your position (potential) can win the fight. In space, there is no positional advantage, only speed. With these ridiculous acceleration rates, speed is pointless.
Not disagreeing with anything else you say here, but SC ships have independent MAVs, not thrust nozzles. I definitely agree that longitudinal thrust should generally be an order of magnitude stronger than laterals (though clearly the Mirais and Apoas are a different breed). But I've been having that conversation (loudly) since at least 2016.
@@galathirgames My most issue in SC with flight model was always the slow flying ships.. few hundred m per sec in a 1000years distant future? And why they have max speed when there is no drag in space? It doesnt make any sense.. Also, i would love to have decoupled Yaw/pitch/roll option.. But SC is more and more going from sim to arcady crap.. and it makes my nerd inside sad..
@mikecapson1845 CR wants WW2 in space. Has always said so. Also, the engine became a desycy mess at 1km/sec. That's why there are no uncapped speeds. The rest is irrelevant. None of this is news, either, frankly. These facts have been in evidence for years at this point.
Is the binary circle the same a s a two-circle dogfight in dcs? It seems sorta similar except you are pointed at each other
Yes
Thanks for the vid, much appreciated!
How were you practicing like that against each other?
Sorry, just edited.. I see it's AC where you're practicing but what mode? How would I do this with a buddy?
Something awful familiar about that guy you're fighting 😂
Oh… never-mind; for a second I thought you were Johnathan Winters.
@@pidginmac I'm am so confused xD
After an M7 Hornet with Rhino or Attraction gun loadout I would definitely chose a Gladius with A similar gun loadout. The M7 Hornet seems to be the current meta right now in 4.0. Currently, 4.0 only favor brawler close combat over longer ranged sniper fighters (Saber) or hit and run fighting (Buccaneer). Anyhow they are working on Master Modes 2.0 and that might change the dynamic of dog fighting.
I bet it would make the game even more Arcade like, instead of proper space sim :/ .. probably its a design choice, to make a game more atractive and less scary for new players, that they can suck money from on ship sales..
the dodging most only work in gladius and light fighters cause when I tried to dodge in a hornet with the strafes I got hit with every shot unfortunately....
Hornet you play differently. 1k circle strafe and when they push you push to out rate them. Don't stay in the mid range. You'll get obliterated.
I need a combat tutorial for my big, fat, slow, Taurus!
All this went over my head.
with light fighters i have often issues with pitch oscilation due to over correction
@@mukechiltmal try lowering the strength of your esp little by little.
@JohnathanWinters thanks for that will try ot put
Don't think it needs to be mentioned, but this is decoupled mode incase other new players didn't see.
Is decoupled used in atmo aswell?
@@Maglouk You can use either atm. I'm still testing them.
Out of curiosity, is this done entirely decoupled?
Ill have to get used to that, I never fly decoupled (I don't do much PvP and in PvE, it hasn't affected me too much yet)
@@jonathanpatry You see where the ESP icon is on the left side, above q-fuel and h fuel? if coupled is on there would be a icon above ESP "CPLD. I never saw it on during the video but I've might have missed it
Edit: it should be under the ESP, not above my mistake
@@jonathanpatry I tend to prefer decoupled.
Damn, I am confused by this video. There's too much happening too quickly for my beginner head.
Agreed
welcome too the life of a fighter were things move fast, dont let that hold you back to learn to be a fighter
Start with my beginners playlist. This is not intended for new players.
Now imagine if this was the former flight model… who’d have had the time to learn….😂😂😂
@JohnathanWinters well, I did watch them, but that was quite some time ago and I did not put it into practise much. I probably played like 10h throughout the whole 2024. Will get back to basics then!
would be nice if you made one for heavy fighters againts light fighter tips.
@@Acers2K I did, "The Heavy."
what is your fov? some ppl using more fov for more angle .. what do you think about it ?
I don't like fish eye and I play with ultrawide so I adjust it as high as I can before the fish eye gets crazy.
What is your fov@@JohnathanWinters
@@TANIL-X 120 My screen is cut to 16:9 though. I play in 21:9
@@JohnathanWinters 32:9 here and lowest i can go is 123 fov… have you noticed esp acting more like an oval because of the high aspect ratio then remaining a circle despite the high AR? Meaning your not getting the same esp “feel” from the four corners of your monitor as you do from the left and right and still different from top to bottom?
Haven't noticed.
Well, I got something to practice later.
What controller setup are you using?
HOSAS, Check out the Description for more.
@ thanks. Saw that in another video. Thanks for the reply and explanations.
As someone who is a potato when flying do you have any recommendations for an andromeda when it comes to pvp?
Watch my Heavy Fighter Video "The Heavy."
Yeah nice John 🥰💪
are you using mouse and keyboard? Because it looks like it. Or HOSAS?
HOSAS
@@JohnathanWinters wow, I still have to practice to be that precise with HOSAS, bought a pair of Gladiator sticks for Xsmas.
Funny I didn't have a name for it but I have been doing the same thing with my HOTAS. I have been pushing my throttle to about 30-50% foward thrust and 20-50% up or down strafe.
God this meta sucks. Nice to see you back at it though dude, let's hope maybe they learn their lesson after this next major flight model change (where they're claiming combat is still too fast 🙄)
Also, for everyone, the Talon is the atmo version of the Gladdy fyi
is this possible without sticks
@@Wijim3 yes
What's ur component build ?
@@ticrysis7235 Comp/Stealth.
Are you using keyboard and mouse
Hosas, you can do this on mkb though. And if u have pedals your playing meta.
@ nice thanks for that info!
@@JohnathanWinterspedals for forward/back strafe or else?
@@tomcatvrkalisz820 for rolls
I am so glad you are back! Your videos are at least possible to understand. I find that Avenger's have lots of great sounding words, but they are just incomprehensible when you get into the practicalities of it. There is one thing that I think really needs to be talked about (and Avenger doesn't get this): Decoupled mode makes everyone else stand still, apart from how they accelerate, because now you are flying at relative speed. The truth is that all speed is relative, this is known since Galileo. There is no absolute speed, and there is no absolute standing still. Most of the game is a lie about speed, with your speed bar, space dust, contrails, etc. all lying to you. The only truth the game gives you are target relative speed and distance. To really see the scope of this, you need a friend flying straight and level in NAV mode at a fixed high speed, then you come to a stop relative them (in decoupled) and notice how you move around them *exactly* like moving around an asteroid in decoupled. Because they are in fact standing still. There is no difference to moving around your fast friend or an asteroid, because your friend is standing still relative you, like the asteroid. There is no absolute standing still. You can't even use the sun as reference, because the sun isn't standing still; it is orbiting the galactic centre. The galaxy is moving through the local group, etc. There is no global reference point in space that things can stand still in relation to. That is what makes Master Modes so stupid, because it solves an issue that the game itself creates. High speed doesn't exist. The high speed that Master Modes fixes is a world pulled down over our eyes to hide reality. If the main speed bar was our relative speed to our target, and the arbitrary absolute speed the speed bar usually shows was entirely removed, we would never joust. Decoupled means that you can ignore whatever speed your target is flying at, since they are standing still. Only their acceleration matters. Knowing this, seeing through the lie, has made me a far better fighter pilot.
i would say this is the current dueling meta, but team fights this makes you to predictable to a 3rd party, so doing traditional knife fighting in a group fight is still better
@@duloulo9089 100% team fights are more about knowing when to defend and when to attack.
@JohnathanWinters no one puts that disclaimer in their videos. That this is a good style for dueling or 1v1s in the verse but in group fights these tactics may not work. Back in last flight model the ac dueling flight style worked for group fights, but master modes we are seeing differences now. The duelist vs the fighter.
Sounds good, ill still get shottt down😂
XD It's all about decreasing how often you get shown down!
VR will get your kills up that's for damn sure.
You playing in VR?
Probably VoRpex
LMAO I see all of my mistakes because by default I am flying exactly like the old flight model and using way to much roll and up strafe jeez.
This appears much more complex and interesting than the previous flight model that was basically just jousting (at least at my level and from my experience). I'm loving learning these new MM !
This flight model is significantly LESS complex. There are far fewer options to choose from now. Jousting was just a result of not having throttle control which was part of the reason they dumbed down flight in the first place: most people couldn't control their ships.
I always appreciated your videos, but this isn't cincematic as CIG wants MM to be at all. 😅
I hate to be that guy, but I wish you had your stick input up on screen for this one.
@@evictor99 you can see it on the hud now. It's the x y graphs on both sides
Your are the best in the game bro , thanks
Wild how they dumbed down the flight model 😂
next time put it on a daytime map pls
Brain conflict! Basically the opposite of what Avenger says wrt rolling. Have you guys dueled to put this to the test?
What section are you referring to?
Is this good against npcs?
@@BC-kx2gx More up against npcs. But yes.
It is hard to understand. The guy is on top of you, you dont have your pip dead on him and you say "this is neutral" while in your other videos neutral means pip dead on.
'Fight people that are worst" lol, not possible.
@@chippietea8033 xD
seems i will suck forever in ship pvp, i cant understand SHIT XD
@@chris_mk5supra This is not intended for new players. Check my beginner playlist.
Great, for years I was fighting competitively WW1 and WW2 era ships, not so much jets , I'm feeling like I need something refreshing, I think why not to try space combat 😊
By binary circle you mean rate fight? Easier to understand for a lot of ppl who are used to the terminology already
No idea I don't know what rate fighting is.
@@JohnathanWinters They are two separate things as far as I understand. The minimal understanding I have of a rate fight is that it's "the difference between a 1 pass (or 1 circle) fight" vs "a fight that goes for more than just a single pass/circle".
On the single pass engagement, the aircraft with the better turning radius wins.
On the multi pass engagement, the aircraft with the better turn rate wins.
With that in mind, this is not the concept being discussed in the video, though it's related to it naturally.
The binary circle being referenced in the video is to my understanding the overall maneuver/method of maintaining a circle to begin with; in this case, engaging a downstrafe as you turn into a pass in a way that allows for the circle to be maintained thereafter by only needing to apply forward thrust and aiming on target; at least until someone horizontally strafes really hard to maybe return to neutral.
@@castlewhale4746 my understanding of a rate fight is that both parties are locked in a turn rate fight as you said BUT they are not passing each other but are locked in a circle (as shown in the video) almost facing each other and it’s a fight to get nose on first.
I can see how this slightly differs from the techniques in the video but the fight depicted is essentially pushed into the classic rate fight position
@@castlewhale4746the fuck is a binary circle though that's a stupid made up term
@@JohnathanWintersturn rate. You're the one that made up some nonsensical name for it
I’m sorry Master modes killed this game for me and I haven’t wanted to even play this game again until it’s replaced
Same here, haven't played again sonce.
Sorry to hear that. As a new player (began in 3.22), master modes were absolutely a relief because the old model was too much confusing and hard to learn in the first place. It was very unfunny being destroyed without even understand how and why.
With master modes I was being able to understand what was going on without checking tutorials or data outside of the game.
But yeah for the old players that knew the system for a long time it must have been sad to lose it all. I think the direction the game is going into is way better for a mmo tho. We just have to get rid of the very not instinctive way we switch modes. But I think the devs are working on this way.
so i just dont have the right ship but this meta is really just as absurdly bad as i thought. have given up entirely on combat thanks to FPS changes and MasterCrap and anytime i catch a video on how to do flight now it just reinforces more that it's really shit now. cool.
it should be a little bit shorter, and please show the keys you press instead of just naming them
Okay so I sacked Circe strafe and applied these methods and had huge success in Squadron Battle for the last 2 hours I’ve just been playing , great tips especially the dodge it’s satisfying watching those shots fly past you 😂
Hell yeah dude. Now your goal should be how to reapply some of the circle strafe theory to the method that works to diversify it and discover something new.
@ how I noticed this method worked was going against players I often come across in AC and normally they take the win but today I was killing them , yeah your right always good to mix it up and keep them guessing it’s another string to now I can use . Thank you
good video. but imo you shouldnt need to learn pvp in SC... but thanks to the increasing amount of trolls and gankers we are forced to nowadays
I played last night after a break since 2.18.
The flight in this game is absolutely horrid. 300 dollar ships that "float" around.
Since I took that break I had been back on Elite , a game I have played for its entire life.
ED feels orders of magnitude better and "faster" to play. Its crazy how bad flight in this game is.
I lost all interest after 4 or so hours.
I thought this was supposed to be a sim but its really not. It is way closer to NMS and Everspace. NMS has terrible flight too. Its just there to get you around and that is exactly what SC feels like. Everspace is way better in the flight department too.
I dont get it.
They are about to make a game that would have cool 10 years ago.
Its a Starfield all over agin.
I knew something was very wrong when I watched the SQ42 demo and the combat sections were basically slo mo monwy shots...
This game is a big oof incoming..m
Shame really.
@@briangueringer3673 are you smoking crack elites combat is a snoozefest
@@briangueringer3673 welcome to Master Modes. In 2024, CIG decided to completely destroy the flightmodel, take most of the skill out of it and make it into an arcadey nonsensical mess.
Star Citizen is an mmo intended for broad audiences and a huge diversity of playstyles. It was never meant to be a niche space flight sim with limited appeal and minimal return on investment. The fights are intended to be like WWII in space, like Star Wars, not hard-core detailed like DCS. Go back to Elite if that's your vibe.
@@Hylanvahr That‘s what they promised, though. And that‘s what they gladly took our money for. No one expects Star Citizen to be like DCS. They are way too incompetent to pull that off. We just want a flightmodel that is remotely physics based and that allows for skill expression
o7
Flight system seems designed around what they 'dont' want rather then anything they actually 'do' want...
@@operator9858 CIG we don't want space turrets: creates space turrets xD
@@JohnathanWinters It would be nice if they would just realize they're making a space game and lean into it instead of hanging on to the dream of WWII in space, which ruins the fun of space combat.
@@troyhavok8605I wouldn’t call star citizen a game about space
My theory is they tend to make Flight model, and whole system more pleasable to new players, instead of pleasing the old, loyal ones.. They are slowly shifting from sim, to arcade .. (the complexity of MFDs for example, the new magic space break, the ship speeds being slow as todays 5gen fighters in atmo, despite being 1000years in future.., and dont get me talk about how max speed shall work in 0g, where there is no drag... and so much more..) I think its due to money, old players already have around 1000bucks in game, and dont tend to spend more, so they are forcing the mechanics to be attractive and less scary for new players, which will end up spending money
@@mikecapson1845 i couldnt agree more. Games of skill are a conflict of interest in regards to profit as the more skilled you get the less amount of people can do it but i still desperatly hope they leave us room to work with and let the less skilled be crew members lol
we had backstafers. we had wigglers. we had aim racers. now get ready for circlers, they already all embraced this gameplay in ac. How to turn dogfight into the worst evolution possible ever. CIG doesn't help, for sure, but the community makes his best to turn the game into a fortnite-like.
Blaming the community for for using what works in a game designed by CiG is like blaming boxers for only using punches in a boxing fight.
@@JohnathanWinters some uses the sun to grow plants, some others use it to light fires and destroy them.
@@jeanlachevre8621 horrible analogy my fault i fixed it.
@@JohnathanWinters do you even realize how you reduce dogfight skills comparated to your previous video in athmo ? this is completly the opposite...
@@jeanlachevre8621 I'm not following
i aint gon lie... this sh!t is CRINGE to fight. everybody flys like this now. i mean no disrespect. Youve really created a wave in the AC community with this one. i just hate fighting it cuz its so dificult to fight for a position now cuz eveyones speeds are just sooo through the roof its crazy.
hahah, im sorry badgerrrrrr. You can counter this, you just cant use NBDS =P
@JohnathanWinters wak
step 1: have 200 ping......
could you show some videos of you actually fighting good players?? alot of talk, now show the walk
I don't make these videos to showcase that I can beat X player. Everyone loses if you play enough. If you can't tell someone is good or not by how they fly then you need to improve yourself.
@@JohnathanWinters alright, i would argue that you will get your ass handed to you by actual players 👍
@@Gilonn I don't doubt it. Lot of solid players out there. Hopefully these videos can help you beat me one day.
@@JohnathanWinters LOL XD
@@GilonnI wouldn't say I'm a particularly bad player, I'd be more than willing to 1v1 with you as well if you think you can teach me something new.
Solid. o7
o7
Im a bit confused about you saying that your old tutorial still work. Didn't they remove most mechanics like tri-chording which you taught before? Im a new player that currently doesnt play because of master modes since it seems so dull and not worth learning