I think you should go to a repair facility like Affinity in Goshen, Indiana and talk to them about the problems they have seen and how they go about doing the repair. This might help to give you better insight into the issue.
My first thought after watching your Lippert frame videos and seeing how the walls were attached with the wood lag bolts (and other videos where they were filming the bolts backing out), why not use a traditional bolt, lock washer, and nut on the other side? Understanding that sandwiching will require beefing up that lower part of the wall that anchors to the frame so it doesn't crush, but this seems relatively straightforward. Just a thought.
Simply put we need more “Facts over Feelings”. This is from everyone involved, manufacturers, dealers and customers. That is why I believe you are the best person for this line of videos, you have no dog in the fight do you are dealing only with the facts as we know them. Keep up the good.
We just got our Keystone Avalanche back with a sidewall split. I have enjoyed watching this and learned a lot. Our issue was definitely a frame to house connection issue. Keystone took care of it and we will move on it's a camper it's gonna be used and enjoyed. The dealership did as much damage dragging it around clumsily and without much care. Most folks don't think you were doing anything more than figuring out the root causes.
You were correct in your initial referral to the problem as "Frame Failure." The term Frame Flex sounds like a term coming from the HR Risk Department or some corporate lawyer trying to minimize the problem. Especially since Frame Flex is common for the fifth wheels. If we continue using their term "Frame Flex" instead of Frame Failure then we continue to spread the term for them. Call it like it is (and as you initially did). Keep up the great work JD. Appreciate your videos.
You gave info that others did not have, i.e. getting access to the Lippert factory whereas others just had speculation. I can understand why some people are upset since they are personally experiencing the failures. Now, to solve the problem (being an engineer myself and a veteran), it's clear that the frame/chassis itself does need some beefing up. I wouldn't say that it needs hundreds of pounds, but there should be less reliance on the walls. The manufacturers need to improve training for those assembling the units, QA/QC checks (which would include becoming ISO 9001 certified) to ensure that the bolts are there/properly tightened, and do away with using lag bolts (should switch to pass through type bolts secured with lock nuts or loctite). In the aerospace world key steps/work needs to be inspected by an independent tech (not one who had worked on the item) prior to continuing any work on that item. With these failures of frames (this is beyond the normal flex the metal has) it would be a good way for the manufacturers (especially one in specific) to earn back some trust and to sell to the public that their frames are good-to-go. So, thanks again for doing these videos and giving all of us info that we didn't have before.
Agree with you Steven. Being a retired engineer/veteran myself (structural PEng), the use of lag bolts in these key areas baffles me. This is an example of using the wrong fastener in the wrong location. More objective eyeballs for key inspection phases should be mandatory. Building 1000 frames a day, a bit shocked when I heard this, screams for a more interactive inspection process. I wonder how frames are built before it's realized that something made it through, that shouldn't have? I never got the impression that the host was pro frame builder or pro manufacturer. He reported what is happening in this industry. One key take away for me were the numbers being built daily as mentioned. It should be a balance between having more experienced inspectors, with specific inspection criterion, in a more hands on manner, than having 600 welders working rotating shifts. Having an ISO 9001 certification should be a no brainer.
I recently ran across 2 videos where either GD or Lippert stepped up to take accountability for the frame failure issue. In both cases, they made the customer sign an NDA. Why would they do this? I can think of a few reasons, they are not inherent of a company "Doing the right thing".
I can attest to the points you made in this video. How one failure can cascade. In our case, we travel with our RV often. About 5000 miles per year. This year, our frame began to break. When I opened up the front of the Rv to access the frame, I saw the thin pieces on the front floor that hold the side walls broken at the weld points. Further in, the riser from main I-beam to front floor support to have broken welds. I first thought it was interesting that where a 2x6 met a 2x6 would be welded along the length not just the 2” at the front and back of the joint leaving the two 6” areas unwelded. However after watching your videos on the matter, I recalled how the front wall in the aluminum structure began to have failing welds. That allowed the front frame to flex up. To just lay blame on Lippert would be wrong. Is there things that could have been done better? Yes! However, had the RV superstructure not have had poorly penetrated welds, the frame wouldn’t have had anywhere to move to. No wood in the aluminum where lag bolts to frame.. that is where the RV manufacturer fell short. And like you stated, the declining infrastructure of the country also plays a big part. I never weighed the rig before, so recently out of curiosity, I did. I found us to be about 200 lbs over rated weight, I’m sure that’s the new roof and 3rd AC so I don’t think that was as much of a factor as 1, manufacturer issues, poor infrastructure with a lot of miles, and finally the amount of welds in critical joints of the front hitch area.
I agree with you Jd attaching hardware is one thing but missing it in the build process is another we’re not going to name names but there has been lots of videos with the hardware missing in crucial spots and may cause the start of the current situation of the start of frame flex or failure
JD I’ve been following you for a long long time and I have always, and will continue to always believe in the guidance you provide. Thank you for what you do and keep up the good work the old saying is, you can please some of the people some of the time but you can’t please all the people all the time. Awesome job friend !
Not offended! To be clear, these frame issues are seemingly not rare as you indicated in a post on one of CruisinWithTheCarsons videos. I respectfully replied to you highlighting that I’m in a campground where two veteran campers who own Grand Design units less than three years old are currently going through a tough time with GD in trying to get support. Low and behold less than six hours ago (as I write this comment), Liz Amazing just posted yet ANOTHER Grand Design owner (it’s a Momentum) who is apparently struggling to get support from GD. So, it’s not just the frame flex/failure, it’s what you adamantly expressed in this video… the expectation/hope that a manufacturer like GD should step up and stand behind their products.
Hey JD, love your channel. I don’t think bad welds could be seen by RV manufacturers. Welds need penetration not just good fill beads and the powder coating will hide it… right. In structural steel often times specialized equipment is used to inspect the steel. Lipert may or may not be doing QA or spot checks. But thanks for taking on the subject.
I think all of the publicity this has received it is finally being addressed. JD you have done a good job of taking a non biased opinion on the issue. Again the RV industry needs to change prices are to high and quality is in the tank. Also since full time RV life is on the rise they need to build RV’s to facilitate that. Anyway you have provided good content true to your channel. God bless and no apologies needed.
fyi.. i am relatively new to the rv world.. weekending last summer.. but plans on full time with new rv within next 3-5 years.. mechanic as a background that said.. i have watched several videos both of yours and others related to frame flex/failure jmo.. but you have done a very good job of explaining what they are... and agree completely now.. my questions that never get answered in videos... what rvs are experiencing failed frames(assuming not just grand design) what is in common among the failed frames.. you mentio ed some fasteners.. but i am thinking frame lengths.. trailer configurations.... weight distribution as built.. etc... lot of missing and assumed information
Loved the series. Thought it was very informative and accurate possible reasons and causes. I saw no passes to manufacture. However, like you, I am not experiencing frame flex. I do feel for those having the issues. And the RV manufacture must take care of it. In the end, they bought the frame and built on it…
Still feel that your insight was very helpful in pushing this issue forward. GD has moved a bit , but the NDA tells me that the problem runs even deeper.
Thanks JD, I’m a TT guy but I love your videos especially trying to give light to an issue some RV’s are experiencing. Keep up the good work letting us know what’s happening in our world. Hopefully we’ll see you driving around when we RV to my wife’s hometown in early May. Gig ‘em.
Apologies are not needed. Your reporting has been impartial in my opinion and you were simply being respectful to the industry partners that brought you in. Being objective seems to be a disappearing trait in todays world.
We are a high usage rig. We purchased a 2022 380fl i. September of 2021. We are over 10,000 miles towed. I have found no broken welds even though the welds look bad. I have however found that GD failed in the manufacturing of my rig by leaving out lag bolts and the bolts they did put in were loose. I am getting fixed but not by GD.
Loved your frame flex serie. Lippert factory was amasing. As welder, i can tell. On the broken frames we can watch on youtube, the 2 biggest issue i saw was: too thin tubing (14 or 12 gage) and improper use of the flimsy 5th weel rv ( built to set and forget).
Frame flex failure is not a one and done entirely dependent on Lippert. It's not about gussets, bolts, welds, additional materials, costs, or heavy chassis frames. It can be a contributing factor, but in this case it's more about substandard engineering design and shoddy assembly by Grand Design. The structural design and quality control (fit and finish) are a horror show. A qualified structural engineer can design a 5th wheel that will not have frame flex failures. Bridge engineers do it all the time (tensile strength, push, and pull integration). It needs to be a holistic integrated design that can withstand the rigors of full time towing. No one is holding this against you JD. The customers are upset with GD selling a substandard product, turning a blind eye to the problem, and leaving owners high and dry. And they are still doing it to this day. Thanks for sharing.
I agree to a point the welding on the frames is subpar to say the least, they need to have some integrity and standards from the welding crew. Sorry if anyone thinks different but that is what is needed for safety of the owner and others on the road.
The fact remains that these new rigs are being advertised, pushed, and sold as " full-time living." Now manufacturers are saying the problems are because people are towing many more miles than intended. Most people I've seen that have the bigger rigs to live in full time and travel full time, have sold there homes, and invest all this money in a truck and trailer. Now they're house is falling apart. I've commented before, the issue is these folks having the issues are not getting any support from the manufacturer. As I stated before, it might be a big benefit to the manufacturers should buy one of these units and put a team on it to take it apart and find out exactly whats happening. It is not an easy issue, but I do feel there is more harm than good is being done to the rv industry over these issues. Im not saying the manufacturers take all the responsibility, but I do feel they have a lion share of the problems. They do not placard areas for weight limits, they make the rigs bigger and lighter. That lightening comes at a cost. Along with bigger and better units, they added washers, dryers, generators, solar packages, many more baterries that are bigger and heavier. All this has to come at a price, that price is overloading frame limits. If an answer is not found soon and a lot of damage control done, I am really afraid of what the end result to the rv market will be. Not an easy problem, but manufacturers turning a deaf ear or closed door is not the answer. God bless ya'll and stay safe on your travels.
Flex in steel is real. Cost vs safety is always in the design. If you sit under an overpass that has steel I-beams, there is flex every time a vehicle cross the overpass. Flex in steel is always going to be there. I will submit, there can be in the RV world frames that are under designed, or have been overloaded to a point of failure.
You have consistently delivered an unbiased and very educated opinion. Your series of videos on frame flex have caused a major manufacturer to do a complete turnaround in their thought process. I know you read the comments and take them to heart, but at some point in time you need to realize the power of your channel and all the people that appreciate what you do. You are one of the best advocates for safety on RUclips in the RV world. If someone doesn't get that, it's on them. Thanks so much for what you do!
JD. Great job. Like you, I feel so terrible so many people are having so much heartache and headaches with this issue. Even though I personally don’t have this issue, I do believe the manufacturer has an absolute obligation to ensure its product will stand up to its intended use and when it doesn’t, then do whatever is needed to make things right instead of doing nothing and hope the issues go away.
We took the keystone Montana tour a couple weeks ago and they only weld one side of the aluminum frame. I asked why they don’t weld it all the way out or at least on both sides and they said it’s not needed because it’s engineered that way. I also asked about a QC that inspects the welds and he said yes but seeing all the burn throughs and some of the welds were just half welded. It’s ridiculous their quality don’t match the price of the units
Your very correct in saying there is a select few welding for these companies. Alot of problems arise when you have a company telling you that you have to get so many frames a day to keep up with production. I built frames for a major rv company in the late 80s thru early 2000. The time that you are given to complete a frame that would have "quality welds" did not work for the company. So you always had a choice make the metal stick, and move on or not keep up and get terminated. It happpens in every department of rv building. Never did i hear slow down and make it correct the first time. It was always hurry hurry,hurry. Anybody that would tell you different is probably in management. Thats just how it is.
Good video. My experience with my group of friends is the non-full timers in our group put more miles in a year than the full timers. The fulltimmers seem to move short distances and stay at a location longer, no pressure to get across the country and back in short time. The non - full timers do big trips Moving often with long days. At the end of the year they have more miles. Now the local weekend only campers will likely have less.
JD...you have NO need to apologize. You are not the paid advocate of the people experiencing this frame flex. You don't have some obligation to be an attack dog for them (the owners). You have presented this from a fairly central informational perspective from the beginning, and you stated this every time. If I'm not mistaken, you ASKED some of the RUclipsrs experiencing this to talk to you and none did (at least initially). You reached out to Lippert and they DID respond! You took them up on their offer of a tour and an in-depth interview and you broadcast it. It seemed that nothing was off the table and you asked a lot of questions. You weren't a JERK about it, because that gets you nowhere. I've watched a lot of factory tours of RV Manufacturers, but none of Lippert's facilities, so that was refreshing and interesting as well. Too many people in our country (the world?) have a "if you're not 100% with us, you're against us" philosophy (in many things, not just RVs). You saw a trend of a problem, you found a unique way to approach it and present it (that no one else came up with), and you executed it. I've watched several other informational RV channels and your series is being referenced a LOT. You deserve kudos for trying to put a productive spin or take on this problem and you should be commended. If people want to see the ranting and raving, there are lots of channels for that. You are doing (and did) the right thing. No apologies needed. Keep up the good work!
Great Video JD. You have done a Great job bringing your views about Frame Issues! We appreciate all your content you put out about All RV related! Keep your head high your doing Great! And Thank you! 😊
Frame Failure...it could probably lessened if manufactures would be more "honest" in how these rigs SHOULD be used. But I have to say, all of this has made me expand my check list of things to look for and ask when buying an RV. I just sent an email direct to a manufacturer asking about yearly mileage recommendation, the ACTUAL weights of the unit when they get shipped, HOW to load them, etc. Let's see what the manufacturer says...should be interesting. I also contacted a dealership and asked "If I buy this using, I need to have the actual weights of the unit as it sits on the lot..." So far crickets on that one. The only reply I got was "Well after you buy it you can take it to a CAT scale..." yea...right.
Spot on comment, ya forget this frame flex comments and videos (good series on it though) we all know that they are supposed to flex, now everyone is beating the dead horse on the flex word, lets get to why the frames are cracking/breaking.
I’m in agreement with others, I took as an avid RV’r and a salesman who wants customers to be taken care off. I enjoyed this whole series and the transparency !!! Great job sir …..
I have a 2012 Forest river 32' toy hauler as known as a sandstorm..triple axle 200 gallons fresh water..had to drive from Colorado to California to pick it up..needed to pull my Mastercraft Wakeboard boat home..stopped in las vegas to have a hitch put on the RV.. The welder that I ended up with who also was a TV personality informed me that I needed a truss from the rear up the frame to accommodate the extra forces on the rear of the RV for a receiver hitch. I still have the RV and double tow every year with NO problems.. My point is that these RV frames are NOT designed to handle that extra load.. This welder showed me pics of failures just adding a receiver to the back of an RV...especially a toy hauler.. the sidewalls of the RV can not support the frame from flexing...hence the need for a truss that helps the load on the rear of the RV transfer up to the axle .Just an FYI!!!
I live in Colorado and travel to Port Aransas for the winter. I have a Cedar Creek 2021 371FL I also dont have any issues as of yet. I tow this with a 2006 Dodge Ram 3500 dually. I think for me in watching all these frame videos and other videos with issues on our RV's is the struggle we go though to get something fixed that should not of occured in the first place. People should not need to go to social media to get an issue fixed with there vehicle or RV. These dealers and manufacturers should step up to the plate and make it right. There is a lot of pride in your work that is missing from our labor force today and its sad to see.
I do not normally comment on a video. However, you have no reason to apologize. You took the time and effort to take a deeper dive in frame issues on fifth wheels. If you offended some people in the process then so be it.
thanks for the info JD.... a little info about my self-business.... I'm in my mid 50's.... in 2007-2008 I was a major supplier for a Altec (power- high voltage) HiLine mfg plan in the north.... my small business helped Altec build over 90 million dollars of assets for the powerline industry. I helped reverse engineer old practices for the plant to introduce cost saving MFG measures that yielded the same product. I have also spent over 38 years in the civilian and military aviation industry... retired A & P and Inspector for a domestic Airline... I have a 2018 Vanleigh Villano 320GK... it is 34 feet total. I was in the forward compartment checking on my batteries... and I decided to inspect my chassis welds... frame from Lippert.... One of my corner structural welds was 50%; which the weld terminated before the entire inside corner structure.... and out of the upper deck floor structure... I expected at least 8 welds on the horizontal inside frame structure under the closet..... no welds visible from my view... My unit was a pre-covid build..... the chassis was 100% welded from Lippert in one of the plants up in the Elkhart area...... Manufacturing, fabrication, and heavy aircraft maintenance have been part of my DNA since I was 18 years old..... The common denominator starts with the foundation. Do we build it on sand or a rock? BTW... my semi-retired job; I move new RV's all over the USA from MFG to dealerships.... bumper-pulls and 5th wheels... ** the A-10 (RUclips Pic) was an aircraft that I worked on many years ago at Shepperd AFB....
If they can attach wings to the fuselage without separating there's no reason why the wall should separate from the frame. Not even on 0.5% of RVs. The RV manufacturers are using the wrong method. But I really don't care because I don't own 5th wheel...
I am right in the middle of the frame/structure damage issue with my 2021 Grand Design Solitude S2930RL. I don't full-time, am the original owner, have weight tickets over the years (always below payload/GVWR of camper and truck). Tow with an F350 Long bed - we don't tow over 62 mph and have always been careful. A week ago I saw the GD posting on frame issues and went in my camper and noticed the rub marks on the walls by my bed night stands. Also noticed a cabinet gap near the ceiling with rub marks on the wall. After seeing this I pulled the side covers to expose the inside Lag Screws. Each side was missing a Lag Screw and the lag screws were 3/8" not 1/2" like the frame holes were drilled to. I replaced all of my lags with larger ones including putting ones in the holes that were prior missing lags. 4 out of 5 on each side is a 20% reduction, then 3/8" instead of 1/2" diameter lags is also a big difference. Others that have checked their interior lags have also found missing lag screws and they are the smaller diameter ones. Again I am very careful with our camper and we have maybe 15K miles on ours - we don't take it off road and I have added solar and lithium batteries that are located closer to the axles (so less pin weight). Fully loaded with water I weighed our camper and it was 14300 lbs (has a 15000 lb GVWR) with about 2800 lbs pin weight. I tow without water. I contacted GD - they issued a claim number to me and looked at my interior photos - they told me to take it to my service center for investigation, and to give the service center the claim information. I did that on Tuesday - Friday my service center was supposed to follow the Technical Service Bulletin issued by GD and drop the covering around the pin box. I have not heard yet if they got to it, but I suspect they will likely find issues (missing bolts potentially and/or broken structure.). When I unhitched I saw the interior nightstands drop as the legs extended. I was told that Lippert would likely come out to shore things up and eventually it would be towed to Grand Design to have it fixed (assuming they do see a problem and approve of repairing). I think some of these campers were put together without the proper retaining bolts, causing these other issues to happen over time. This is turning into a nightmare for those of us that have to deal with it right now. I assume our camping plans up front are ruined given we had a late April weekend trip and early June 1 week trip planned. Bigger concern is whether it will be repaired correctly - fingers crossed that GD does a good job and nothing happens to it traveling from MD to IN and back to MD. This does really suck because the camper has been great otherwise.
I agree with others, no apologies needed. I finally see that are agreeing that there could be major frame issues meaning bad welds and structural issues. RV builders need to step and hire in house quality control people like most other companies. Good job
Speaking as someone who has in the past felt that you were not critical enough of the industry I don’t feel any apologies are needed. Could you have been more “aggressive” in how you approached this? Yes and it would have shut down the lines of communication into the manufacturers. My view is that this has been less of a construction issue and more of a customer service issue. If the manufacturers had just stood behind their products while educating owners this would have been a non story. If they had taken steps either through running changes or a frank discussion of why failures were occurring to ensure that new build units were good it would have quelled a lot of concerns. Where your coverage was so incredibly valuable I think was that it was coming from someone with a huge following and known to be very fair in adressing the industry. That you got in front of Lippert as you did was huge I think. I don’t think it was any coincidence that just after the Lippert videos started dropping that Grand Design finally started communicating. I really think that your coming into this issue the way you did moved the needle in a very real way. I also tend to think that even if it’s done quietly these large units that have had Al the problems will end up being beefed up as a result. No apology needed from you in my view.
Auto engineer here, and I appreciate your effort to deliver an objective message. I'm not going to write a book, but it's important to note that: - Everything flexes - RVs, F1 cars, bricks, pencils - everything flexes and designers will, or should, take this into account. It's obvious that Lippert does in the design of their chassis. - RVs are what car designers call a single-box body on a frame chassis. These 'boxes' are very tall, very wide and this configuration is difficult to make rigid. - I think that, based on your videos, Lippert is using modern design, manufacturing and testing processes and tools. I don't know if I could say the same for the RV makers. - I think that, in the process of 'chasing lightness', RV makers do not design and make the bodies in such a way to either flex less or tolerate flex better. Adding material to the chassis (the Lippert frame) isn't the answer - based on the drawings I've seen, the RV bodies need additional, well-placed framing elements. It would actually add less weight overall than just adding material to the frame but would require that the RV makes use up-to-date modelling tools and not just use CAD as an 'electronic blueprint' tool. - I've taken two RV factory tours and neither gave me the impression that they were using 'state of the art' design and manufacturing processes, and actually reinforced the conclusions I made from the drawings. TL;DR - you great, Lippert good, RV makers need to improve.
@BTBRV - JD, Talking about rigidity, I wonder if there have ever been any frame failures in the DRV brand 5th wheels? I don't know if you have ever looked at their brochures on how rigid their frames are but it is pretty impressive. I know they are extremely heavy even their smallest one but they are very, very stout. Maybe the Elkhart manufacturers need to compare what their specs are for frames and look to the DRV frames for improvement. Just a thought.
No need for apologies here. You’re reporting objective facts based on what you observe. Folks with the issue, myself included, are financially and emotionally invested in this issue and are having a different experience than what your reporting supports. No reason to beat you up, and no reason for you to feel the need to apologize. I have learned a great deal from you over the years and hope to learn more over the years to come. Thank you!
I think you did ok with this. Based on what I’ve seen from RUclips there’s only certain floor plans and models with the issues and those might be a frame spec/build issue and all it’s done is shown that they may not stand behind their product or they under engineered it. Personally we used to own an older Open Range Light with their weird pin box that could run gooseneck or king pin. It settled a weird way and amount when hitched that was normal for the pin box but the frame itself always measured out and was fine.
There has to be quality controll on welds both builders and frame dept”s I think the square of the 5th wheel is the problem we’re it tends to rack from side to side and maybe have indents or little rounded outside panels so it won’t rack while passing a semi doing 70 +. Sorta like an airplane fuselage construction light weight and strong. But you need rounded ribs along wall panels Ty!
I agree with your comments regarding lazy welders, the other issue is with their brothers/cousins/fathers who work for the manufacturers and don’t give a damn either. This is further exacerbated by the manufacturers who don’t follow the procedures required by Lippert.
It would seem to me that if a major cause of frame failure is how people use/misuse their rigs, the frame problem would not be much more frequent in one particular manufacturer, but more evenly distributed between all brands. Do nearly all the over loaders buy just that one brand? That does not seem logical.
I think you did a good job on this issue, I think the problem is the way these things are built you got to worry if a teaspoon of water gets in it thru the 1/4" of caulk you missed it's gonna peel apart . Apart from that all I've got is run a self tapper into the frame of your 17000# trailer then try to run one into the frame of your 8000# pick up...just sayin...thanks for wading into this issue!
Something as simple as how the lag bolts are installed means all the difference between a structural attachment and a total waste of time *and* materials. I've seen boneheads bang lag bolts in -- especially into green lumber -- with no proper pre-drilling at all! Lag screw threads are designed to engage in wood . . . as in never in metal. If the lags are inserted through the metal first, those drilled holes must be at least the O.D. of the solid part of a given lag screw (the part which has no threads). Then the wood should be pre-drilled according to the solid part of the screw where the threads are. This permits the lag screw threads to take a bite in the wood without splitting the wood! And most critical of all, lag screws should only ever be *barely* snugged up! If they're banging them in there at 90 MPH with no finesse? They are wasting their time with no appreciation for a job done well. :(
You asked the question more than once about loading the rv with its rated cargo capacity in one spot or was it supposed to be evenly distributed. It appeared there was deflection for the answer. And to your point about toy haulers , where lots of people don’t have a load in the back to lesson the pin weight. It just seemed there wasn’t a definitive answer. Without knowing anything about toy haulers I instinctively knew to put most of my camping gear in the rear because I could see the axles were further back than a regular bumper pull travel trailer. Anyways I think the biggest problem is the difference in frame flex with no cracks and frame failure which would be cracks whether at welds or in the middle of steel. And all of this is most prevalent in the upper deck around the hitch or the frame pieces going down from the top deck to the bottom deck frame. Yrs ago newmar made fifth wheels and the upper line was made with tandem dual axles. I bet their upper decks were beefy.
While you didn't ask the "hard hitting" investigative journalist questions that people are seeking answers to, that's not your job or what you were attempting to do. You did a service to us all in getting access to the workings of Lippert, flaws and all. I respect them for not dodging the issue as Grand Design has. Lippert builds what their customer (Grand Design) asks for. It sucks that they're put in the limelight to take all the abuse that Grand Design (the rig manufacturer) is trying to dodge.
JD you have done a good job of being non biased. I personally don't have any frame flex in my 2018 Grand Design Solitude, but I am concerned if other peoples issues cause the resale value to drop drastically. As a welder since the early 80's I give credit where credit is due. My Solitude has very good welds everywhere I have been able to inspect. My bigger concern isn't frame flex, but frame failure when a portion of the front deck pulls completely apart and fails. I have seen photos of failure of verticle tubes in the front deck where the tube steel has cracked through in the middle, far away from any welds. To be fair to the manufacturers we don't know how much weight was being carried in the basement and front of the trailer. Every steel member has a design limit, if you exceed it the steel can fail. I do think that manufactures should provide a load rating for each storage area and test those loads with a safety margin. With some of these larger 5th wheels I think that the consumer might not fully understand weight they are adding and what type of a reaction it can have. In regard to towing another trailer behind a 5th wheel, I am guilty as charged. Usually it is a boat, 2500 lbs with about 200 lbs of tongue weight, sometimes an enclosed trailer with an ATV inside, less than 2500 lbs and about 200 lbs tongue weight and on occasion I flat tow my Jeep TJ which is a lot less stress on everything because it just rolls down the road. I have seen worse conditions on highways in my travels when road construction is underway than traveling on National forest roads and I do that quite a bit. Have you ever looked at the frames of a Arctic Fox fifth wheel? The ones I have looked at are much heavier I beams that most of the others out there and their advertisement states CERTIFIED NORTHWOOD OFF ROAD CHASSIS. They aren't perfect, but some of their construction is more robust. If my frame ever fails, I will probably fix it like I fix everything else. It is just a shame that the frames on these fifth wheels are having issues and the manufacturers are hiding behind a 3 year warranty. The front deck is a safety concern and they should be forced to stand behind that part of the frame for a much longer period of time. Can you imagine what would happen if your F450's frame was breaking in half at 110k miles?
A more useful topic would be looking at specifics as to cost and weight to make a chasis that could hold up to full time use. Throwing out things like 4000 extra pounds is not helpful or realistic. People just want to buy an rv that they can travel with around the country in and not have them falling apart. And yes a lot of them are falling apart. What are the manufacturers doing to avoid this problem in the future???? Have seen nothing about improvements in future models.
I think you’ve done very good coverage on this topic. Thank you. There are a lot of different variables and people involved. But I have yet to see a person with a frame issue that has come out and state how much cargo they regularly carry? Also how many miles do they regularly travel? These rv trailers are not buck riveted or constructed like a tractor trailer that’s made for heavy cargo and high mileage.
Most of these issues are grand design not building on the frame correctly. But I’ve seen those welds. Those welds are a joke. They don’t inspect those welds well enough and it’s a problem.
totally agree that is my biggest complaint these are rolling down the highways at 60 to 70 miles per hour and the welds look like trainees on their first week.
JD the welds you showed on your frame looked better than some but if the welds are not getting good penetration, on both sides then looks don't matter and that is what I see, welds that have gaps and look like a bad caulking job, don't have good penetration. I saw one the Spring hanger broke off on a 1 year old Montana and the weld broke clean due to poor penetration. I think since you get access to the Manufacture that you would do more to put this in the spotlight. not trying to make you out as the bad guy just want to see Lippert take some responsibility along with GD. the missing Lag screws may have helped but the frames failing is on Lippert.
That's the problem instead of making thousands of frames and thousands of rvs take there time and make hundreds of frames and hundreds of rvs . The automotive industry is the same ways.
I started seeing issues with my, bought new, 2018 light weight mid profile 5th wheel from Forest River after towing it for 6 years and about 50,000 miles. I think it was due to the amount of miles on some our rough highways across this nation.
I think the entire RV industry is at fault, not only with the frame issues but also the general construction of the boxes mounted to the frames. They build them very beautiful but not generally with the best materials. It’s an industry that seems to be plagued with multiple issues. There should be governmental standards as over site to demand a certain level of build quality. Case in point, ever notice a trailer truck pull a load from a stop to pull out on an incline? My frame will flex to the point my left front tire will lift from the ground due to the torque and after close to a 600,000 miles, no issue with the frame or body mounted on the frame and my rig costs less than some of these RVs. Your new pickup or SUV ever have frame flex/breakage or welds break, or the body begin to fall apart. My heavy duty pickup costs far less the many “fancy” RVs. Get the picture? Better work can and should be done because hard working people pay huge amounts of money for their RVs to enjoy their retirement years and lives. Too many reports and complaints. What a shame.
It is interesting that Grand Designs has started buying back trailers and the people have to sign non disclosure agreements just ask Cruising with the Carsons youtuber
@@BTBRVReviews So repeating the same thing OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER somehow makes it more clear? I don't think so, it just seems like you are very condescending and in a way constantly making a jab at those in the other video's who are actually having "frame failure" who are calling it frame flex but the amount of "flex" they are having is more than what the engineers claim should be experienced. I don't recall any videos in all that I have watched where someone is saying they are having frame flex thinking it is frame failure when it is just normal flexing...
If i were buying a new 5th wheel now i would want some type of warranty on the frame. Just like the manufacturer has done for the roofs. I do own a less then 40 ft 5th wheel. I do not own a GD. But these are not cheap and how a company handles warranties would also be a concern. I own an Alliance Valor. I have not heard of issues with these units.
JD, there are so many factors that come into play. In my opinion, you have taken a neutral role in all of your videos. For some reason, people feel that anything they purchase is going to be perfect. I guess then the people who feel this way have always been perfect. I do feel that the manufacturers should do something to help the RV owner if the RV owner hasn't contributed to the problem. Then, you have another issue when the manufacturers have to establish a set of standards to figure that out. Guess what? People will have issues with that. It's a no-win situation. Keep providing the videos that you always have.
Not sure if you ever covered bumper pull stuff. Mainly spending the money for a solid steel quality hitch. As well as when it's time to trade that f150 in for a truck that doesn't look like the ones they banned in Carolina hauling 24ft.
I've watched your videos on this subject. No need to apologize in my opinion. FYI...my previous Fifth Wheel had a BAL frame and I had lots of major problems with it. My current Fifth Wheel with the Lippert Rhino/Space Saver is built much better.
Not to beat you up too much, JD, but you gushed over Vanleigh towables - as did many other RUclips RV channels. When my wife and I got to tour two new units - a Vilano & a Beacon in early 2022, we were appalled at the lack of quality materials and the poor fit and finish on the examples we saw - to such an extent we cannot help but think that there were some shenanigans going on between Tiffin and the various RUclips Channels that gave them glowing reviews. Vanleigh would stop operations less than a year later. We posted our disappointment on social media - only to get several replies from people who noted they had found the same thing. Some of them opined that supply chain issues and Covid may have contributed to the problem, but still, I'm not sure that a brand could decline so quickly that there was this huge disconnect between what RUclips reviewers were saying and what we saw.
I don't disagree. The product we received was fairly reviewed and I did indicate when there were any problems. Again though, it's hard to specifically say how the development of the one we received was made.
We have a 2008 Montana and in my opinion it has a very beefy frame. How have frames changed over the years. Has technology enabled the frames to be lighter weight? Thanks for taking on this subject, I have learned alot.
JD, You tried to be totally unbiased in your attempt to take on the frame flex/frame failure issue with Lippert. However with your connection to the industry (etrailer does sell Lippert parts/components) there is a bias even though that bias maybe perceived by some of the viewers. I mean when Lippert pays for your airfare, hotel and rental car along with predetermined and provided softball questions what other conclusion can anyone have. I do appreciate you trying to get to the bottom of the this as this is a big issue for the industry no matter what the actual percentage of frames failing is. Like you stated you are not having the issue. I still would have appreciated your dive into this a lot more if you would have taken the time and effort to go to a failed unit and visit with someone (like the Carson's) who are going through or have gone through this terrible ordeal.
I'm wondering if people think it's just a coincidence that because of my coverage, customers are now being taken care of. I sure would love to know what the terms of the NDA are.
Where are the quality control points? Where’s the sign offs, inspection stickers etc? There’s a lot of areas where they dropped the ball. Why are you agreeing with the manufacturer? What do you know about a quality audit program?
Probably dumb question but they have impressive automated material prep at Lippert. Why no robotic welding? Also DOT at federal level on commercial level as to specs. Why not at RV construction and safety industry?
Great job dude. You seem unbiased unlike some other people talking about this. The thing is most failures have been from Grand Design. So what I REALLY DON'T WANT IS GOVERNMENT REGULATION. I don't want things like a super heavy frame or ABS forced onto myself or other consumers. These types of things need to be OPTIONAL. I've been towing for over 20 years without either with no issues. Of course I don't add unapproved Gen Y pin boxes (to the people who do this, do you really think it's worth risking the warranty of your 100k+ investment??? I know I sure wouldn't!!!) or drive a 20,000lb toyhauler off road down a trail that's made for 4x4 off road vehicles (yes I've actually seen plenty of people do this).
We all are already used to paying a little more for the minimum! Have you noticed we all buy cars that don't have frames or unibodys that break as you're going down a bumpy road? None of us would put up with that for a minute! Just think if the pros that build horse trailers, carrying million dollar animals were to decide to save a few bucks by doing the bare minimum with little to no safety factor built in! I'm sorry, this is just a situation of finger pointing with plausible deniability! The manufacturer that sold the unit to a customer needs to be held responsible for their decision to provide below minimum standards to be competitive. This is a huge safety issue! I can't go to a RV show now without kneeling down around the wheels to see how many weak or bad welds are holding the leaf springs on, or if a 5th wheeler is already showing caulk seems opening near the front. No other industry I know of would risk people's safety like these guys are.
Have you seen the Brinkley/Gen-Y video? Isn’t it funny that LCI was involved with the testing and GEN-Y passed and exceeded the metrics tested. Yet, they claim they have not yet tested the GEN-Y and have not approved them for their frames. I appreciate your input and the videos you have made regarding this and other issues. However, I do not trust Lippert, LCI and any other of their subsidiaries. The issues most consumers are having is due to Lippert related products and not the manufacturer of the rv. Unfortunately , they do not have competition at this point. Rumors are, there will soon be.
First off I own a class a but it was quite obvious from your videos that you were supporting the manufacturer being that you answered every single question yourself, And it’s not just the largest fifth wheel toy hauler’s that are dealing with their frames failing and getting very little traction from the dealer and or the frame manufacture
This frame failure issue only goes to show how truly horrible the manufacturer warranty is for the consumer. The wording basically allows them to deny almost anything and is not usually transferable to anyone beyond the first owner. Almost no states lemon laws apply to rv purchases and many manufacturers require the purchaser to agree to binding arbitration that must be done in Indiana. There isn’t much recourse if the manufacturers don’t honor the warranty unless it’s a safety concern addressed by an actual recall. You’re basically on your own when there’s a problem. You can watch some of the many videos produced by attorney Steve Lehto if you want to see how bad the rv industry practices are.
I think you should go to a repair facility like Affinity in Goshen, Indiana and talk to them about the problems they have seen and how they go about doing the repair. This might help to give you better insight into the issue.
My first thought after watching your Lippert frame videos and seeing how the walls were attached with the wood lag bolts (and other videos where they were filming the bolts backing out), why not use a traditional bolt, lock washer, and nut on the other side? Understanding that sandwiching will require beefing up that lower part of the wall that anchors to the frame so it doesn't crush, but this seems relatively straightforward. Just a thought.
Simply put we need more “Facts over Feelings”. This is from everyone involved, manufacturers, dealers and customers. That is why I believe you are the best person for this line of videos, you have no dog in the fight do you are dealing only with the facts as we know them. Keep up the good.
We just got our Keystone Avalanche back with a sidewall split. I have enjoyed watching this and learned a lot. Our issue was definitely a frame to house connection issue. Keystone took care of it and we will move on it's a camper it's gonna be used and enjoyed. The dealership did as much damage dragging it around clumsily and without much care. Most folks don't think you were doing anything more than figuring out the root causes.
You were correct in your initial referral to the problem as "Frame Failure." The term Frame Flex sounds like a term coming from the HR Risk Department or some corporate lawyer trying to minimize the problem. Especially since Frame Flex is common for the fifth wheels. If we continue using their term "Frame Flex" instead of Frame Failure then we continue to spread the term for them. Call it like it is (and as you initially did). Keep up the great work JD. Appreciate your videos.
You gave info that others did not have, i.e. getting access to the Lippert factory whereas others just had speculation. I can understand why some people are upset since they are personally experiencing the failures. Now, to solve the problem (being an engineer myself and a veteran), it's clear that the frame/chassis itself does need some beefing up. I wouldn't say that it needs hundreds of pounds, but there should be less reliance on the walls. The manufacturers need to improve training for those assembling the units, QA/QC checks (which would include becoming ISO 9001 certified) to ensure that the bolts are there/properly tightened, and do away with using lag bolts (should switch to pass through type bolts secured with lock nuts or loctite). In the aerospace world key steps/work needs to be inspected by an independent tech (not one who had worked on the item) prior to continuing any work on that item. With these failures of frames (this is beyond the normal flex the metal has) it would be a good way for the manufacturers (especially one in specific) to earn back some trust and to sell to the public that their frames are good-to-go. So, thanks again for doing these videos and giving all of us info that we didn't have before.
Agree with you Steven. Being a retired engineer/veteran myself (structural PEng), the use of lag bolts in these key areas baffles me. This is an example of using the wrong fastener in the wrong location. More objective eyeballs for key inspection phases should be mandatory. Building 1000 frames a day, a bit shocked when I heard this, screams for a more interactive inspection process. I wonder how frames are built before it's realized that something made it through, that shouldn't have? I never got the impression that the host was pro frame builder or pro manufacturer. He reported what is happening in this industry. One key take away for me were the numbers being built daily as mentioned. It should be a balance between having more experienced inspectors, with specific inspection criterion, in a more hands on manner, than having 600 welders working rotating shifts. Having an ISO 9001 certification should be a no brainer.
I recently ran across 2 videos where either GD or Lippert stepped up to take accountability for the frame failure issue. In both cases, they made the customer sign an NDA. Why would they do this? I can think of a few reasons, they are not inherent of a company "Doing the right thing".
No need to apologize for anything. You have done a very good job.
I can attest to the points you made in this video. How one failure can cascade.
In our case, we travel with our RV often. About 5000 miles per year. This year, our frame began to break. When I opened up the front of the Rv to access the frame, I saw the thin pieces on the front floor that hold the side walls broken at the weld points. Further in, the riser from main I-beam to front floor support to have broken welds. I first thought it was interesting that where a 2x6 met a 2x6 would be welded along the length not just the 2” at the front and back of the joint leaving the two 6” areas unwelded. However after watching your videos on the matter, I recalled how the front wall in the aluminum structure began to have failing welds. That allowed the front frame to flex up. To just lay blame on Lippert would be wrong. Is there things that could have been done better? Yes! However, had the RV superstructure not have had poorly penetrated welds, the frame wouldn’t have had anywhere to move to. No wood in the aluminum where lag bolts to frame.. that is where the RV manufacturer fell short. And like you stated, the declining infrastructure of the country also plays a big part. I never weighed the rig before, so recently out of curiosity, I did. I found us to be about 200 lbs over rated weight, I’m sure that’s the new roof and 3rd AC so I don’t think that was as much of a factor as 1, manufacturer issues, poor infrastructure with a lot of miles, and finally the amount of welds in critical joints of the front hitch area.
I agree with you Jd attaching hardware is one thing but missing it in the build process is another we’re not going to name names but there has been lots of videos with the hardware missing in crucial spots and may cause the start of the current situation of the start of frame flex or failure
JD I’ve been following you for a long long time and I have always, and will continue to always believe in the guidance you provide. Thank you for what you do and keep up the good work the old saying is, you can please some of the people some of the time but you can’t please all the people all the time.
Awesome job friend !
Not offended! To be clear, these frame issues are seemingly not rare as you indicated in a post on one of CruisinWithTheCarsons videos. I respectfully replied to you highlighting that I’m in a campground where two veteran campers who own Grand Design units less than three years old are currently going through a tough time with GD in trying to get support. Low and behold less than six hours ago (as I write this comment), Liz Amazing just posted yet ANOTHER Grand Design owner (it’s a Momentum) who is apparently struggling to get support from GD. So, it’s not just the frame flex/failure, it’s what you adamantly expressed in this video… the expectation/hope that a manufacturer like GD should step up and stand behind their products.
Hey JD, love your channel. I don’t think bad welds could be seen by RV manufacturers. Welds need penetration not just good fill beads and the powder coating will hide it… right. In structural steel often times specialized equipment is used to inspect the steel. Lipert may or may not be doing QA or spot checks. But thanks for taking on the subject.
I think all of the publicity this has received it is finally being addressed. JD you have done a good job of taking a non biased opinion on the issue. Again the RV industry needs to change prices are to high and quality is in the tank. Also since full time RV life is on the rise they need to build RV’s to facilitate that. Anyway you have provided good content true to your channel. God bless and no apologies needed.
fyi.. i am relatively new to the rv world.. weekending last summer.. but plans on full time with new rv within next 3-5 years.. mechanic as a background
that said.. i have watched several videos both of yours and others related to frame flex/failure
jmo.. but you have done a very good job of explaining what they are... and agree completely
now.. my questions that never get answered in videos... what rvs are experiencing failed frames(assuming not just grand design) what is in common among the failed frames.. you mentio ed some fasteners.. but i am thinking frame lengths.. trailer configurations.... weight distribution as built.. etc...
lot of missing and assumed information
Loved the series. Thought it was very informative and accurate possible reasons and causes. I saw no passes to manufacture. However, like you, I am not experiencing frame flex. I do feel for those having the issues. And the RV manufacture must take care of it. In the end, they bought the frame and built on it…
Still feel that your insight was very helpful in pushing this issue forward.
GD has moved a bit , but the NDA tells me that the problem runs even deeper.
Thanks JD, I’m a TT guy but I love your videos especially trying to give light to an issue some RV’s are experiencing. Keep up the good work letting us know what’s happening in our world. Hopefully we’ll see you driving around when we RV to my wife’s hometown in early May. Gig ‘em.
Apologies are not needed. Your reporting has been impartial in my opinion and you were simply being respectful to the industry partners that brought you in. Being objective seems to be a disappearing trait in todays world.
We are a high usage rig. We purchased a 2022 380fl i. September of 2021. We are over 10,000 miles towed.
I have found no broken welds even though the welds look bad.
I have however found that GD failed in the manufacturing of my rig by leaving out lag bolts and the bolts they did put in were loose.
I am getting fixed but not by GD.
Loved your frame flex serie. Lippert factory was amasing. As welder, i can tell. On the broken frames we can watch on youtube, the 2 biggest issue i saw was: too thin tubing (14 or 12 gage) and improper use of the flimsy 5th weel rv ( built to set and forget).
Keep up the good work, JD . Hopefully, the rv manufacturers will build a much better rv.
I like your videos! This one I have to laugh because you are apologizing for NOT having frame problems. 😂
Frame flex failure is not a one and done entirely dependent on Lippert. It's not about gussets, bolts, welds, additional materials, costs, or heavy chassis frames. It can be a contributing factor, but in this case it's more about substandard engineering design and shoddy assembly by Grand Design. The structural design and quality control (fit and finish) are a horror show. A qualified structural engineer can design a 5th wheel that will not have frame flex failures. Bridge engineers do it all the time (tensile strength, push, and pull integration). It needs to be a holistic integrated design that can withstand the rigors of full time towing. No one is holding this against you JD. The customers are upset with GD selling a substandard product, turning a blind eye to the problem, and leaving owners high and dry. And they are still doing it to this day. Thanks for sharing.
I agree to a point the welding on the frames is subpar to say the least, they need to have some integrity and standards from the welding crew. Sorry if anyone thinks different but that is what is needed for safety of the owner and others on the road.
The fact remains that these new rigs are being advertised, pushed, and sold as " full-time living."
Now manufacturers are saying the problems are because people are towing many more miles than intended.
Most people I've seen that have the bigger rigs to live in full time and travel full time, have sold there homes, and invest all this money in a truck and trailer. Now they're house is falling apart.
I've commented before, the issue is these folks having the issues are not getting any support from the manufacturer.
As I stated before, it might be a big benefit to the manufacturers should buy one of these units and put a team on it to take it apart and find out exactly whats happening.
It is not an easy issue, but I do feel there is more harm than good is being done to the rv industry over these issues. Im not saying the manufacturers take all the responsibility, but I do feel they have a lion share of the problems.
They do not placard areas for weight limits, they make the rigs bigger and lighter. That lightening comes at a cost. Along with bigger and better units, they added washers, dryers, generators, solar packages, many more baterries that are bigger and heavier.
All this has to come at a price, that price is overloading frame limits. If an answer is not found soon and a lot of damage control done, I am really afraid of what the end result to the rv market will be.
Not an easy problem, but manufacturers turning a deaf ear or closed door is not the answer.
God bless ya'll and stay safe on your travels.
Flex in steel is real. Cost vs safety is always in the design. If you sit under an overpass that has steel I-beams, there is flex every time a vehicle cross the overpass. Flex in steel is always going to be there. I will submit, there can be in the RV world frames that are under designed, or have been overloaded to a point of failure.
I believe that your term “frame failure” is a more accurate term for what some folks seem to be experiencing. Thanks for educating us on this topic.
You have consistently delivered an unbiased and very educated opinion. Your series of videos on frame flex have caused a major manufacturer to do a complete turnaround in their thought process. I know you read the comments and take them to heart, but at some point in time you need to realize the power of your channel and all the people that appreciate what you do. You are one of the best advocates for safety on RUclips in the RV world. If someone doesn't get that, it's on them. Thanks so much for what you do!
Thank you for this. I under stand it a lot better THANK YOU for that
JD. Great job. Like you, I feel so terrible so many people are having so much heartache and headaches with this issue. Even though I personally don’t have this issue, I do believe the manufacturer has an absolute obligation to ensure its product will stand up to its intended use and when it doesn’t, then do whatever is needed to make things right instead of doing nothing and hope the issues go away.
Not all welds are continuous, not even in buildings....
We took the keystone Montana tour a couple weeks ago and they only weld one side of the aluminum frame. I asked why they don’t weld it all the way out or at least on both sides and they said it’s not needed because it’s engineered that way. I also asked about a QC that inspects the welds and he said yes but seeing all the burn throughs and some of the welds were just half welded. It’s ridiculous their quality don’t match the price of the units
@@jrodtinn798 "It’s ridiculous their quality don’t match the price of the units." That one sentence pretty much sums up this entire issue.
Your very correct in saying there is a select few welding for these companies. Alot of problems arise when you have a company telling you that you have to get so many frames a day to keep up with production. I built frames for a major rv company in the late 80s thru early 2000. The time that you are given to complete a frame that would have "quality welds" did not work for the company. So you always had a choice make the metal stick, and move on or not keep up and get terminated. It happpens in every department of rv building. Never did i hear slow down and make it correct the first time. It was always hurry hurry,hurry. Anybody that would tell you different is probably in management. Thats just how it is.
Good video. My experience with my group of friends is the non-full timers in our group put more miles
in a year than the full timers. The fulltimmers seem to move short distances and stay at a location longer, no pressure to get across the country and back
in short time. The non - full timers do big trips
Moving often with long days. At the end of the year they have more
miles. Now the local weekend only campers will likely have less.
JD...you have NO need to apologize. You are not the paid advocate of the people experiencing this frame flex. You don't have some obligation to be an attack dog for them (the owners). You have presented this from a fairly central informational perspective from the beginning, and you stated this every time. If I'm not mistaken, you ASKED some of the RUclipsrs experiencing this to talk to you and none did (at least initially). You reached out to Lippert and they DID respond! You took them up on their offer of a tour and an in-depth interview and you broadcast it. It seemed that nothing was off the table and you asked a lot of questions. You weren't a JERK about it, because that gets you nowhere.
I've watched a lot of factory tours of RV Manufacturers, but none of Lippert's facilities, so that was refreshing and interesting as well.
Too many people in our country (the world?) have a "if you're not 100% with us, you're against us" philosophy (in many things, not just RVs). You saw a trend of a problem, you found a unique way to approach it and present it (that no one else came up with), and you executed it. I've watched several other informational RV channels and your series is being referenced a LOT.
You deserve kudos for trying to put a productive spin or take on this problem and you should be commended. If people want to see the ranting and raving, there are lots of channels for that.
You are doing (and did) the right thing. No apologies needed. Keep up the good work!
True statement about welders criticizing each other. 😂
Great Video JD. You have done a Great job bringing your views about Frame Issues! We appreciate all your content you put out about All RV related! Keep your head high your doing Great! And Thank you! 😊
I know I seldom say nice things In your comment section, but I think you've done a good job with a bad situation. 👍🏻
I appreciate that
Frame Failure...it could probably lessened if manufactures would be more "honest" in how these rigs SHOULD be used. But I have to say, all of this has made me expand my check list of things to look for and ask when buying an RV. I just sent an email direct to a manufacturer asking about yearly mileage recommendation, the ACTUAL weights of the unit when they get shipped, HOW to load them, etc. Let's see what the manufacturer says...should be interesting. I also contacted a dealership and asked "If I buy this using, I need to have the actual weights of the unit as it sits on the lot..." So far crickets on that one. The only reply I got was "Well after you buy it you can take it to a CAT scale..." yea...right.
Spot on comment, ya forget this frame flex comments and videos (good series on it though) we all know that they are supposed to flex, now everyone is beating the dead horse on the flex word, lets get to why the frames are cracking/breaking.
I’m in agreement with others, I took as an avid RV’r and a salesman who wants customers to be taken care off. I enjoyed this whole series and the transparency !!!
Great job sir …..
I have a 2012 Forest river 32' toy hauler as known as a sandstorm..triple axle 200 gallons fresh water..had to drive from Colorado to California to pick it up..needed to pull my Mastercraft Wakeboard boat home..stopped in las vegas to have a hitch put on the RV.. The welder that I ended up with who also was a TV personality informed me that I needed a truss from the rear up the frame to accommodate the extra forces on the rear of the RV for a receiver hitch. I still have the RV and double tow every year with NO problems.. My point is that these RV frames are NOT designed to handle that extra load.. This welder showed me pics of failures just adding a receiver to the back of an RV...especially a toy hauler.. the sidewalls of the RV can not support the frame from flexing...hence the need for a truss that helps the load on the rear of the RV transfer up to the axle .Just an FYI!!!
Best video and hope you show use when the rv factory changes how they attach to the frame
I live in Colorado and travel to Port Aransas for the winter. I have a Cedar Creek 2021 371FL I also dont have any issues as of yet. I tow this with a 2006 Dodge Ram 3500 dually. I think for me in watching all these frame videos and other videos with issues on our RV's is the struggle we go though to get something fixed that should not of occured in the first place. People should not need to go to social media to get an issue fixed with there vehicle or RV. These dealers and manufacturers should step up to the plate and make it right. There is a lot of pride in your work that is missing from our labor force today and its sad to see.
Nothing is going to change until the RV Industry is Regulated just like the Auto industry….❤
I do not normally comment on a video. However, you have no reason to apologize. You took the time and effort to take a deeper dive in frame issues on fifth wheels. If you offended some people in the process then so be it.
thanks for the info JD.... a little info about my self-business.... I'm in my mid 50's.... in 2007-2008 I was a major supplier for a Altec (power- high voltage) HiLine mfg plan in the north.... my small business helped Altec build over 90 million dollars of assets for the powerline industry. I helped reverse engineer old practices for the plant to introduce cost saving MFG measures that yielded the same product. I have also spent over 38 years in the civilian and military aviation industry... retired A & P and Inspector for a domestic Airline... I have a 2018 Vanleigh Villano 320GK... it is 34 feet total. I was in the forward compartment checking on my batteries... and I decided to inspect my chassis welds... frame from Lippert.... One of my corner structural welds was 50%; which the weld terminated before the entire inside corner structure.... and out of the upper deck floor structure... I expected at least 8 welds on the horizontal inside frame structure under the closet..... no welds visible from my view... My unit was a pre-covid build..... the chassis was 100% welded from Lippert in one of the plants up in the Elkhart area...... Manufacturing, fabrication, and heavy aircraft maintenance have been part of my DNA since I was 18 years old..... The common denominator starts with the foundation. Do we build it on sand or a rock? BTW... my semi-retired job; I move new RV's all over the USA from MFG to dealerships.... bumper-pulls and 5th wheels... ** the A-10 (RUclips Pic) was an aircraft that I worked on many years ago at Shepperd AFB....
I wonder if the manufacturer tells the welder you have to weld so many per day. Or prep and weld it right no matter how many per day
I have a forest river no problems yet but stand up for the buyers it looks like you are on the builders
If they can attach wings to the fuselage without separating there's no reason why the wall should separate from the frame. Not even on 0.5% of RVs. The RV manufacturers are using the wrong method. But I really don't care because I don't own 5th wheel...
I am right in the middle of the frame/structure damage issue with my 2021 Grand Design Solitude S2930RL. I don't full-time, am the original owner, have weight tickets over the years (always below payload/GVWR of camper and truck). Tow with an F350 Long bed - we don't tow over 62 mph and have always been careful. A week ago I saw the GD posting on frame issues and went in my camper and noticed the rub marks on the walls by my bed night stands. Also noticed a cabinet gap near the ceiling with rub marks on the wall. After seeing this I pulled the side covers to expose the inside Lag Screws. Each side was missing a Lag Screw and the lag screws were 3/8" not 1/2" like the frame holes were drilled to. I replaced all of my lags with larger ones including putting ones in the holes that were prior missing lags. 4 out of 5 on each side is a 20% reduction, then 3/8" instead of 1/2" diameter lags is also a big difference. Others that have checked their interior lags have also found missing lag screws and they are the smaller diameter ones. Again I am very careful with our camper and we have maybe 15K miles on ours - we don't take it off road and I have added solar and lithium batteries that are located closer to the axles (so less pin weight). Fully loaded with water I weighed our camper and it was 14300 lbs (has a 15000 lb GVWR) with about 2800 lbs pin weight. I tow without water.
I contacted GD - they issued a claim number to me and looked at my interior photos - they told me to take it to my service center for investigation, and to give the service center the claim information. I did that on Tuesday - Friday my service center was supposed to follow the Technical Service Bulletin issued by GD and drop the covering around the pin box. I have not heard yet if they got to it, but I suspect they will likely find issues (missing bolts potentially and/or broken structure.). When I unhitched I saw the interior nightstands drop as the legs extended. I was told that Lippert would likely come out to shore things up and eventually it would be towed to Grand Design to have it fixed (assuming they do see a problem and approve of repairing).
I think some of these campers were put together without the proper retaining bolts, causing these other issues to happen over time. This is turning into a nightmare for those of us that have to deal with it right now. I assume our camping plans up front are ruined given we had a late April weekend trip and early June 1 week trip planned. Bigger concern is whether it will be repaired correctly - fingers crossed that GD does a good job and nothing happens to it traveling from MD to IN and back to MD. This does really suck because the camper has been great otherwise.
I agree with others, no apologies needed. I finally see that are agreeing that there could be major frame issues meaning bad welds and structural issues. RV builders need to step and hire in house quality control people like most other companies. Good job
Speaking as someone who has in the past felt that you were not critical enough of the industry I don’t feel any apologies are needed. Could you have been more “aggressive” in how you approached this? Yes and it would have shut down the lines of communication into the manufacturers.
My view is that this has been less of a construction issue and more of a customer service issue. If the manufacturers had just stood behind their products while educating owners this would have been a non story. If they had taken steps either through running changes or a frank discussion of why failures were occurring to ensure that new build units were good it would have quelled a lot of concerns.
Where your coverage was so incredibly valuable I think was that it was coming from someone with a huge following and known to be very fair in adressing the industry. That you got in front of Lippert as you did was huge I think. I don’t think it was any coincidence that just after the Lippert videos started dropping that Grand Design finally started communicating. I really think that your coming into this issue the way you did moved the needle in a very real way. I also tend to think that even if it’s done quietly these large units that have had Al the problems will end up being beefed up as a result.
No apology needed from you in my view.
Auto engineer here, and I appreciate your effort to deliver an objective message. I'm not going to write a book, but it's important to note that:
- Everything flexes - RVs, F1 cars, bricks, pencils - everything flexes and designers will, or should, take this into account. It's obvious that Lippert does in the design of their chassis.
- RVs are what car designers call a single-box body on a frame chassis. These 'boxes' are very tall, very wide and this configuration is difficult to make rigid.
- I think that, based on your videos, Lippert is using modern design, manufacturing and testing processes and tools. I don't know if I could say the same for the RV makers.
- I think that, in the process of 'chasing lightness', RV makers do not design and make the bodies in such a way to either flex less or tolerate flex better. Adding material to the chassis (the Lippert frame) isn't the answer - based on the drawings I've seen, the RV bodies need additional, well-placed framing elements. It would actually add less weight overall than just adding material to the frame but would require that the RV makes use up-to-date modelling tools and not just use CAD as an 'electronic blueprint' tool.
- I've taken two RV factory tours and neither gave me the impression that they were using 'state of the art' design and manufacturing processes, and actually reinforced the conclusions I made from the drawings.
TL;DR - you great, Lippert good, RV makers need to improve.
@BTBRV - JD, Talking about rigidity, I wonder if there have ever been any frame failures in the DRV brand 5th wheels? I don't know if you have ever looked at their brochures on how rigid their frames are but it is pretty impressive. I know they are extremely heavy even their smallest one but they are very, very stout. Maybe the Elkhart manufacturers need to compare what their specs are for frames and look to the DRV frames for improvement.
Just a thought.
No need for apologies here. You’re reporting objective facts based on what you observe. Folks with the issue, myself included, are financially and emotionally invested in this issue and are having a different experience than what your reporting supports. No reason to beat you up, and no reason for you to feel the need to apologize. I have learned a great deal from you over the years and hope to learn more over the years to come. Thank you!
I think you did ok with this. Based on what I’ve seen from RUclips there’s only certain floor plans and models with the issues and those might be a frame spec/build issue and all it’s done is shown that they may not stand behind their product or they under engineered it.
Personally we used to own an older Open Range Light with their weird pin box that could run gooseneck or king pin. It settled a weird way and amount when hitched that was normal for the pin box but the frame itself always measured out and was fine.
There has to be quality controll on welds both builders and frame dept”s
I think the square of the 5th wheel is the problem we’re it tends to rack from side to side and maybe have indents or little rounded outside panels so it won’t rack while passing a semi doing 70 +. Sorta like an airplane fuselage construction light weight and strong. But you need rounded ribs along wall panels Ty!
I agree with your comments regarding lazy welders, the other issue is with their brothers/cousins/fathers who work for the manufacturers and don’t give a damn either. This is further exacerbated by the manufacturers who don’t follow the procedures required by Lippert.
It would seem to me that if a major cause of frame failure is how people use/misuse their rigs, the frame problem would not be much more frequent in one particular manufacturer, but more evenly distributed between all brands. Do nearly all the over loaders buy just that one brand? That does not seem logical.
I'm glad my 42 footer is problem free. I also love tacos.
The majority of the rvs I saw with issues on RUclips were Grand Design and had lag bolts missing like they were never installed
I think you did a good job on this issue, I think the problem is the way these things are built you got to worry if a teaspoon of water gets in it thru the 1/4" of caulk you missed it's gonna peel apart . Apart from that all I've got is run a self tapper into the frame of your 17000# trailer then try to run one into the frame of your 8000# pick up...just sayin...thanks for wading into this issue!
You have a point… however there is one manufacturer that has had absolutely no “ frame failure “ that is Alliance
But too be honest I would never by a grand design at this time
Something as simple as how the lag bolts are installed means all the difference between a structural attachment and a total waste of time *and* materials. I've seen boneheads bang lag bolts in -- especially into green lumber -- with no proper pre-drilling at all! Lag screw threads are designed to engage in wood . . . as in never in metal. If the lags are inserted through the metal first, those drilled holes must be at least the O.D. of the solid part of a given lag screw (the part which has no threads). Then the wood should be pre-drilled according to the solid part of the screw where the threads are. This permits the lag screw threads to take a bite in the wood without splitting the wood! And most critical of all, lag screws should only ever be *barely* snugged up! If they're banging them in there at 90 MPH with no finesse? They are wasting their time with no appreciation for a job done well. :(
You asked the question more than once about loading the rv with its rated cargo capacity in one spot or was it supposed to be evenly distributed. It appeared there was deflection for the answer. And to your point about toy haulers , where lots of people don’t have a load in the back to lesson the pin weight. It just seemed there wasn’t a definitive answer. Without knowing anything about toy haulers I instinctively knew to put most of my camping gear in the rear because I could see the axles were further back than a regular bumper pull travel trailer. Anyways I think the biggest problem is the difference in frame flex with no cracks and frame failure which would be cracks whether at welds or in the middle of steel. And all of this is most prevalent in the upper deck around the hitch or the frame pieces going down from the top deck to the bottom deck frame. Yrs ago newmar made fifth wheels and the upper line was made with tandem dual axles. I bet their upper decks were beefy.
While you didn't ask the "hard hitting" investigative journalist questions that people are seeking answers to, that's not your job or what you were attempting to do.
You did a service to us all in getting access to the workings of Lippert, flaws and all. I respect them for not dodging the issue as Grand Design has.
Lippert builds what their customer (Grand Design) asks for. It sucks that they're put in the limelight to take all the abuse that Grand Design (the rig manufacturer) is trying to dodge.
Look into the hitches and how they work!
JD you have done a good job of being non biased. I personally don't have any frame flex in my 2018 Grand Design Solitude, but I am concerned if other peoples issues cause the resale value to drop drastically. As a welder since the early 80's I give credit where credit is due. My Solitude has very good welds everywhere I have been able to inspect. My bigger concern isn't frame flex, but frame failure when a portion of the front deck pulls completely apart and fails. I have seen photos of failure of verticle tubes in the front deck where the tube steel has cracked through in the middle, far away from any welds. To be fair to the manufacturers we don't know how much weight was being carried in the basement and front of the trailer. Every steel member has a design limit, if you exceed it the steel can fail. I do think that manufactures should provide a load rating for each storage area and test those loads with a safety margin. With some of these larger 5th wheels I think that the consumer might not fully understand weight they are adding and what type of a reaction it can have. In regard to towing another trailer behind a 5th wheel, I am guilty as charged. Usually it is a boat, 2500 lbs with about 200 lbs of tongue weight, sometimes an enclosed trailer with an ATV inside, less than 2500 lbs and about 200 lbs tongue weight and on occasion I flat tow my Jeep TJ which is a lot less stress on everything because it just rolls down the road. I have seen worse conditions on highways in my travels when road construction is underway than traveling on National forest roads and I do that quite a bit. Have you ever looked at the frames of a Arctic Fox fifth wheel? The ones I have looked at are much heavier I beams that most of the others out there and their advertisement states CERTIFIED NORTHWOOD OFF ROAD CHASSIS. They aren't perfect, but some of their construction is more robust. If my frame ever fails, I will probably fix it like I fix everything else. It is just a shame that the frames on these fifth wheels are having issues and the manufacturers are hiding behind a 3 year warranty. The front deck is a safety concern and they should be forced to stand behind that part of the frame for a much longer period of time. Can you imagine what would happen if your F450's frame was breaking in half at 110k miles?
You have absolutely nothing to apologize for.
Stay on top of it
A more useful topic would be looking at specifics as to cost and weight to make a chasis that could hold up to full time use. Throwing out things like 4000 extra pounds is not helpful or realistic. People just want to buy an rv that they can travel with around the country in and not have them falling apart. And yes a lot of them are falling apart. What are the manufacturers doing to avoid this problem in the future???? Have seen nothing about improvements in future models.
I think you’ve done very good coverage on this topic. Thank you. There are a lot of different variables and people involved. But I have yet to see a person with a frame issue that has come out and state how much cargo they regularly carry? Also how many miles do they regularly travel? These rv trailers are not buck riveted or constructed like a tractor trailer that’s made for heavy cargo and high mileage.
Most of these issues are grand design not building on the frame correctly. But I’ve seen those welds. Those welds are a joke. They don’t inspect those welds well enough and it’s a problem.
totally agree that is my biggest complaint these are rolling down the highways at 60 to 70 miles per hour and the welds look like trainees on their first week.
JD the welds you showed on your frame looked better than some but if the welds are not getting good penetration, on both sides then looks don't matter and that is what I see, welds that have gaps and look like a bad caulking job, don't have good penetration. I saw one the Spring hanger broke off on a 1 year old Montana and the weld broke clean due to poor penetration. I think since you get access to the Manufacture that you would do more to put this in the spotlight. not trying to make you out as the bad guy just want to see Lippert take some responsibility along with GD. the missing Lag screws may have helped but the frames failing is on Lippert.
That's the problem instead of making thousands of frames and thousands of rvs take there time and make hundreds of frames and hundreds of rvs . The automotive industry is the same ways.
I started seeing issues with my, bought new, 2018 light weight mid profile 5th wheel from Forest River after towing it for 6 years and about 50,000 miles. I think it was due to the amount of miles on some our rough highways across this nation.
I think the entire RV industry is at fault, not only with the frame issues but also the general construction of the boxes mounted to the frames. They build them very beautiful but not generally with the best materials. It’s an industry that seems to be plagued with multiple issues. There should be governmental standards as over site to demand a certain level of build quality. Case in point, ever notice a trailer truck pull a load from a stop to pull out on an incline? My frame will flex to the point my left front tire will lift from the ground due to the torque and after close to a 600,000 miles, no issue with the frame or body mounted on the frame and my rig costs less than some of these RVs. Your new pickup or SUV ever have frame flex/breakage or welds break, or the body begin to fall apart. My heavy duty pickup costs far less the many “fancy” RVs. Get the picture? Better work can and should be done because hard working people pay huge amounts of money for their RVs to enjoy their retirement years and lives. Too many reports and complaints. What a shame.
It is interesting that Grand Designs has started buying back trailers and the people have to sign non disclosure agreements just ask Cruising with the Carsons youtuber
Please do more Frame Flex !!!!!
I hope you stand up for the buyers
I've always focused on protecting and educating the consumer.
You seem to constantly repeat what frame flex is as if we don't know the difference between it and frame failure. We get it...
You get it, I don't think you can speak for everyone.
@@BTBRVReviews So repeating the same thing OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER somehow makes it more clear?
I don't think so, it just seems like you are very condescending and in a way constantly making a jab at those in the other video's who are actually having "frame failure" who are calling it frame flex but the amount of "flex" they are having is more than what the engineers claim should be experienced.
I don't recall any videos in all that I have watched where someone is saying they are having frame flex thinking it is frame failure when it is just normal flexing...
If i were buying a new 5th wheel now i would want some type of warranty on the frame. Just like the manufacturer has done for the roofs. I do own a less then 40 ft 5th wheel. I do not own a GD. But these are not cheap and how a company handles warranties would also be a concern. I own an Alliance Valor. I have not heard of issues with these units.
Thanks JD.
JD, there are so many factors that come into play. In my opinion, you have taken a neutral role in all of your videos. For some reason, people feel that anything they purchase is going to be perfect. I guess then the people who feel this way have always been perfect. I do feel that the manufacturers should do something to help the RV owner if the RV owner hasn't contributed to the problem. Then, you have another issue when the manufacturers have to establish a set of standards to figure that out. Guess what? People will have issues with that. It's a no-win situation. Keep providing the videos that you always have.
Not sure if you ever covered bumper pull stuff. Mainly spending the money for a solid steel quality hitch. As well as when it's time to trade that f150 in for a truck that doesn't look like the ones they banned in Carolina hauling 24ft.
I've watched your videos on this subject. No need to apologize in my opinion. FYI...my previous Fifth Wheel had a BAL frame and I had lots of major problems with it. My current Fifth Wheel with the Lippert Rhino/Space Saver is built much better.
Not to beat you up too much, JD, but you gushed over Vanleigh towables - as did many other RUclips RV channels. When my wife and I got to tour two new units - a Vilano & a Beacon in early 2022, we were appalled at the lack of quality materials and the poor fit and finish on the examples we saw - to such an extent we cannot help but think that there were some shenanigans going on between Tiffin and the various RUclips Channels that gave them glowing reviews. Vanleigh would stop operations less than a year later.
We posted our disappointment on social media - only to get several replies from people who noted they had found the same thing. Some of them opined that supply chain issues and Covid may have contributed to the problem, but still, I'm not sure that a brand could decline so quickly that there was this huge disconnect between what RUclips reviewers were saying and what we saw.
I don't disagree. The product we received was fairly reviewed and I did indicate when there were any problems. Again though, it's hard to specifically say how the development of the one we received was made.
We have a 2008 Montana and in my opinion it has a very beefy frame. How have frames changed over the years. Has technology enabled the frames to be lighter weight? Thanks for taking on this subject, I have learned alot.
JD, check out how Lance joins panels on their truck campers, specifically their Lance lock system. Could this be used for fifth wheels?
JD, You tried to be totally unbiased in your attempt to take on the frame flex/frame failure issue with Lippert. However with your connection to the industry (etrailer does sell Lippert parts/components) there is a bias even though that bias maybe perceived by some of the viewers. I mean when Lippert pays for your airfare, hotel and rental car along with predetermined and provided softball questions what other conclusion can anyone have. I do appreciate you trying to get to the bottom of the this as this is a big issue for the industry no matter what the actual percentage of frames failing is. Like you stated you are not having the issue. I still would have appreciated your dive into this a lot more if you would have taken the time and effort to go to a failed unit and visit with someone (like the Carson's) who are going through or have gone through this terrible ordeal.
I'm wondering if people think it's just a coincidence that because of my coverage, customers are now being taken care of. I sure would love to know what the terms of the NDA are.
Where are the quality control points? Where’s the sign offs, inspection stickers etc? There’s a lot of areas where they dropped the ball. Why are you agreeing with the manufacturer? What do you know about a quality audit program?
Probably dumb question but they have impressive automated material prep at Lippert. Why no robotic welding? Also DOT at federal level on commercial level as to specs. Why not at RV construction and safety industry?
Great job dude. You seem unbiased unlike some other people talking about this. The thing is most failures have been from Grand Design. So what I REALLY DON'T WANT IS GOVERNMENT REGULATION. I don't want things like a super heavy frame or ABS forced onto myself or other consumers. These types of things need to be OPTIONAL. I've been towing for over 20 years without either with no issues. Of course I don't add unapproved Gen Y pin boxes (to the people who do this, do you really think it's worth risking the warranty of your 100k+ investment??? I know I sure wouldn't!!!) or drive a 20,000lb toyhauler off road down a trail that's made for 4x4 off road vehicles (yes I've actually seen plenty of people do this).
We all are already used to paying a little more for the minimum! Have you noticed we all buy cars that don't have frames or unibodys that break as you're going down a bumpy road? None of us would put up with that for a minute! Just think if the pros that build horse trailers, carrying million dollar animals were to decide to save a few bucks by doing the bare minimum with little to no safety factor built in!
I'm sorry, this is just a situation of finger pointing with plausible deniability! The manufacturer that sold the unit to a customer needs to be held responsible for their decision to provide below minimum standards to be competitive. This is a huge safety issue!
I can't go to a RV show now without kneeling down around the wheels to see how many weak or bad welds are holding the leaf springs on, or if a 5th wheeler is already showing caulk seems opening near the front. No other industry I know of would risk people's safety like these guys are.
Have you seen the Brinkley/Gen-Y video? Isn’t it funny that LCI was involved with the testing and GEN-Y passed and exceeded the metrics tested. Yet, they claim they have not yet tested the GEN-Y and have not approved them for their frames.
I appreciate your input and the videos you have made regarding this and other issues. However, I do not trust Lippert, LCI and any other of their subsidiaries. The issues most consumers are having is due to Lippert related products and not the manufacturer of the rv. Unfortunately , they do not have competition at this point. Rumors are, there will soon be.
First off I own a class a but it was quite obvious from your videos that you were supporting the manufacturer being that you answered every single question yourself, And it’s not just the largest fifth wheel toy hauler’s that are dealing with their frames failing and getting very little traction from the dealer and or the frame manufacture
This frame failure issue only goes to show how truly horrible the manufacturer warranty is for the consumer. The wording basically allows them to deny almost anything and is not usually transferable to anyone beyond the first owner. Almost no states lemon laws apply to rv purchases and many manufacturers require the purchaser to agree to binding arbitration that must be done in Indiana. There isn’t much recourse if the manufacturers don’t honor the warranty unless it’s a safety concern addressed by an actual recall.
You’re basically on your own when there’s a problem. You can watch some of the many videos produced by attorney Steve Lehto if you want to see how bad the rv industry practices are.
The problem is MUCH greater than the industry is reporting.
I think you’re wrong about this being primary a full timer problem!
I have own 2 different 5th wheels (97" and 2014) I would not buy any 5th wheel for next few years !!!