🚨 RV Frame Flex & FAILURE!! • WHAT is Happening and WHO is Responsible?!
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- Опубликовано: 4 июл 2024
- Though this topic has come up before the discussion of "RV Frame Flex" is something that has recently come to the forefront of the industry's topics of discussion.
I've spent the past several weeks going through a DEEP dive through this subject learning about WHAT is happening, HOW it is happening, WHY it is happening, WHO is responsible, and how you as a consumer can perhaps avoid finding yourselves in a situation where your RV is experiencing a damaging structural failure.
The more I dug into this.. the more I discovered it is NOT a situation that bears pointing a single finger. There are multiple parties involved and there is a MUCH bigger conversation to be had.
It is my personal feeling the current instances of "Frame Flex" is only a symptom of a much great issue existing within the RV Industry and Lifestyle. But perhaps it will serve as a conversational catalyst to improve the experiences had by all parties involved.
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00:00 Frame Flex
02:50 What is it?
04:32 Frequency?
05:39 Affected Areas
08:18 Causes
19:04 Avoiding Them
28:45 WHY though?
30:33 to Owners..
32:40 to MFGs..
35:59 to Dealers..
39:13 TL;DR..
39:54 Thoughts?
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#frameflex #failure #RVNerd #RVNerdHerd #RV #rvlife #rving #travel #camp #camping #camper #campinglife #homeonwheels 
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I went to an RV dealer and looked at a gorgeous front living room, full body paint fifth wheel. As I walked around, the “yellow tag” on the off camping side of the trailer stated the cargo capacity was 1280 lbs. I said to my wife in front of the salesman, not to even bother looking due to the cargo capacity. Said salesman completely assured me that first off, I would never put that much weight on the trailer and if I went over “a little bit” I would be fine. As for not frequently moving them, not using them full time, not using them in harsh weather, the blame goes square onto the manufacturer that puts the “Rated For Full Time”, “Four Season Rated” stickers next to the front door. Josh, I am a fan of your work, I appreciate you walking the tight rope but manufactures and dealers have been complicit in selling consumers on a life style that they do not have a product that will support.
It sounds to me that it’s time the government gets more involved in the rv manufacturing and regulation the way they do automotive manufacturing if you can’t move a rv there isn’t much sense in buying one the rv manufacturers have been screwing people for years it’s now time they were held accountable
Hear, hear!
Well said!
I have a 30 year old JAYCO 5th wheel. that has a 4500 pound capacity. Rack and pinon slides. Built like a tank. Afraid to sell it
I couldn’t agree more with your last sentence starting with “Josh…”
Two things. Who knew they made RV's-campers to not be used as RV's-campers and taken across the country multiple times? Looking for a big RV to haul your toys, they ask? Well, I have this one, but you can only move it three times. Why three times I ask? Well, the frame starts flexing the 4th time you move it. Those models should not be sold as an RV but instead as a tiny house. lol
And next is we have all wondered do I have enough truck to safely travel with this particular camper. I have never even thought about thinking do I have too much truck for this camper. The way you explained it was masterful.
Josh, you continue to do the work we all need to here. Thanks brother.
I’m no different than you. I want to flip a desk sometimes over these kind of conversations because there’s just no reason it should realistically be such a mystery.
@@JoshtheRVNerd Of course there is a reason RV manufacturers keep this stuff a mystery...because they don't want to be held accountable!
Honestly, the rationale in this video is laughable, and obviously came directly from the RV manufacturers...these stupid consumers shouldn't be using F-450 tow vehicles, shouldn't be using expensive shock-absorbing aftermarket hitches, shouldn't be towing the RVs more than 20 miles from home...even though none of this is expressly stated in their warranty.
I recall reading years ago in one of the camping magazines (way, way, back when paper magazines were a real thing) that RVs were designed for use rate of around two weeks of use per year, over a ten-year finance "lifetime." Not full-time usage. I don't know how true it was, but the idea was the average person only had two to three weeks' vacation per year, so they built the usage rate to match that. Basically, a full timer would put a full design lifetime of use on one it less than a year. Have no idea if that applies anymore or not, but somewhere in their design process, they have a specification for it.
@@kmbbmj5857 Yes, makes sense. Everytime you tow a trailer, it's essentially equal to your house experiencing an earthquake. Imagine your house in an earthquake 3-4 times a year. It would be falling apart.
Love your reply! Just one thing I take issue with. You imply that they might actually tell you how many times you can move it. In fact, if you read the warranty details, this is a number that you have to guess correctly on your own!! Alternatively, you can consult an Ouija board or magic 8-ball!!
Hi Josh, .... I have been following your channel for several years now and have concluded that you are one of the few in the industry who achieve a high level of transparency and accuracy on the topics you discuss, and for that I thank you and the industry thanks you!
On this topic of frame failure, I have owned a 44 foot 'four season' fifth wheel and successfully travelled all of North America without any major challenges. I learned myself that Weight management was KEY to making sure the RV experienced the minimum amount of vibration and flex. Here are a couple of other suggestions that you didn't directly discuss in your video that could help other 'full time' RV owners be aware of:
1) The roads you travel (i.e. quality of highway and terrain). Many large fifth wheel owners like to 'boondock'. This is a terriric way to save some $$ but also get back to nature per se. The challenge with alot of this is that large fifth wheel owners are pulling your 16,000 - 22,000 lb RV through and over terrain that will stress the frame likely more than it was designed to stress. This reality is NEVER discussed by manufacturers or dealers relative to HOW you should or should not Repeatedly use your fifth wheel.
2) The frames on fifth wheels are designed and engineered by structural engineers. Hence, your point on Pinbox Weight being listed on the RV when emply is a great one. I would also add that they should add 'Max Pinbox Weight' so that owners can be aware of the amount they should be travelling with, (on the pinbox), before the fame / pinbox will begin to experience stress. This should be a 'known' number based on the frame design and steel strength and engineering.
I hope this helps, and thanks for taking on this difficult topic.
this is why I converted to the gooseneck… The gooseneck can articulate or shall I say rotate side to side better than the flat fifth wheel that has a reduced range of motion.
You are spot on.
The one additional item that I think is being missed by the industry, is the amount of horsepower and braking that newer trucks have. The ability to accelerate and stop is putting forces on the pin boxes that were never part of the equation before.
Wow, you sold your soul to the RV companies.
Okay Fauci was this an issue before covid? Or is new to the industry? How many people before 2020 had this issue?
There's nothing wrong with being passionate about the industry nor being passionate about your 'job' at informing 'us'. Love your candor and also in accepting the challenge to address any RV industry problem!!!
Glad you are taking the time to do this because frame FLEX is normal, frame FAILURE is not!
Exactly
Thanks Uncle Josh I never knew about this and never even gave it a thought, l'm glad you have educated me. I know how much junk we stuffed into our camper. We also stuffed the bed of my truck and inside the cab. 2 adults and 3 kids. I'll guess we were way overloaded. Even with a big gas V8 going uphill I got passed by big rigs, a couple of times we could barely make it to the top of a steep hill. Other bigger campers passed us. I figured it was because their truck maybe had a stronger engine. Probably not i'm thinking now we wrer just way to heavy!
@@crazycritterlady8788 Absolutely was. I live in California, knowing I'm gonna tow in those mountains. I wouldn't buy a trailer with a dry weight of no more than 70% of my towing capacity and max weight capacity of the trailer no more than 90% of my trucks towing towing capacity. You gotta have that buffer for terrain. Plus, not to knock gas V8's, but diesel, with that early torque makes huge difference on towing up inclines. I have a half-ton diesel.
One of the best ever Josh! Never stop. BTW the White Hawk 10 yrs on is going strong! God bless
@@jshoota19ify @crazycritterlady8788 I've been in California, and towed through it plenty of times.. and with a gas engine.. without problems. With Diesel handle it better.. well duh.. yes. Until you get sub zero temps anyways. And either way, you should still be weighing your RV to match for balancing and weight distribution. I make it a point to weigh mine whenever it's convenient.. 3 times in the last 5 months infact. I've never come up to my truck capacity (currently at 68%), and even with full tank of fresh water and fully loaded to live in, we're still only 81% of the trailers ratings. And we rarely tow with a full tank of water, I just wanted to see what it would weigh.
Nerding out on RV info! Who else but Josh?
This industry needs some serious change. Folks like you are helping to make that happen!
I love youjosh rv guy
Great information & video Josh!
I believe that speed while towing will make a big difference. If you are towing at 75/80 mph you will probably have more issues. I pull at about 62 & feel much safer.
In the uk 65 mph max that’s the law
That's the exact speed I tow at. 55 with no traffic for better gas milage.
Your right on that point....I don't know how many times I get behind fifth wheels and toy haulers heading out to the desert doing 55-65 and try to respectfully go around them to get my view of the road back and by the time I finally get around them/it were both doing 75+......when I am able to finally make the pass that same enditiy drops back to the original speed we were going when I attempted to make the pass..... unbelievable
You've never seen me do that. I set the cruise at 62. Up & down hills that's my speed.
Y’all must be different as all I see is campers flying by me. It really doesn’t matter because a camper doesn’t know how fast it’s going, besides a class a is usually going past the speed limit. The only fifth wheel I would ever buy now is a Cedar Creek and it’s only because I know someone that only works on Cedar Creek’s and he is better than the factory
The flip side of this video is that going forward, the RV manufacturers could add more structure and support to the frames so that they are stronger than the current frames. At the end of the day, there is a strong movement towards people traveling all over the US and a larger desire from many of the purchasers to live full-time in these RVs. Really - if anyone bought a car model from Chevy/Ford/Toyota/etc. and there was a problem with a frame because people were "using/driving" the car too much, there'd be a nationwide recall. If you really want to call a spade a spade, no one should have any concerns about the frame that an RV is built on. It's funny that you don't hear about diesel pushers having frame problems... Just saying.
It probably would only add $100-$200 in materials and labor to do it right.
If they did that, while good for us, would possibly limit smaller trucks and more market segment. I'd rather have a higher gvwr with the trade off of being built like a tank, but not many people want a newer dually that can pull something heavier in the mid to upper 20s
@@smirnoff242it would add that much weight to stiffen these under engineered frames!
First and foremost they are not regulated by the NTSB like at car or truck or a diesel pusher since they do not carry live cargo. Flip to the other side and look at those fancy horse/RV trailers, they are built like a rock (they carry live cargo) and the quality put into those trailers are night and day compared to an only RV trailer. Lastly it they built an RV as if it was to carry live cargo they would last at least 10-20yrs, meaning RV companies wouldn't be making money as people would hold onto them longer. Back in the day when there was so many smaller RV companies they put quality into there units, now those companies have been bought by bigger companies to remove competition and the quality vanished for profit. An RV is just like anything else you by now a days in our throw away society compared to anything that was bought 20+ years ago and still running
Be honest , lippert builds frames to ordered rv specs. It is the manufacturers fault that frames are failing due to trying to keep weight lighter.
The last two causes, "too much truck," and "moving it too much," are just cop outs by the industry to push blame on the customer. It's to cover poor engineering to maximize profits. Don't build me a vehicle designed to be towed and then when it breaks blame me for towing it around. Imagine buying a car and having the MFG go "well we didn't expect you to actually drive it around."
Agree...
Consumers pay his paycheck not the manufacturer...
If you don't have people coming in to buy, you are not going to get paid...
Protect the consumer not the manufacturer.
They absolutely say “it was never intended to be used that way”.
You can't engineer equipment to cover people who don't understand how a machine works
I don’t necessarily disagree, but I do think a customer deserves to be made aware of those factors. And I don’t think that’s really done currently. At least with not any intention and consistency.
Actually, car manufacturers DO (sorta) tell you this. New car warranties are listed as both time and mileage. They're telling you if you drive it more than they expect, the warranty is going to end faster. As Josh said, there isn't (typically) a mileage/hour meter on a trailer. In this area, car manufacturers are doing a better job of telling you not to use it too much.
Lemon law would go along way to fix the rv industry for the consumer.
It's not just manufacturers, owners are just as much to blame. Ford chevy and dodge keeps giving these owners more power, more power is not what you need when towing
Hi Josh, it’s also happening to smaller 5th Wheels! Our KZ 283RLT is sitting at the factory right now getting fixed from frame failure! It broke our wall under the bedroom slide, plus the battery dropped out because all the screws came out of the plastic trough!
We are trading it in as soon as it comes back! I can’t trust it!
Thanks for everything that you do! You are my hero!!!
Yeah, it absolutely can happen to anything. The current discussion has really been focused a lot on big fifth wheel, but it’s not impossible to happen anywhere else.
I would blame the engineers that spec the frames for these trailer. The do not add enough over engineering into them .
@@mitchstephen5491I completely agree!
@@mitchstephen5491nope dont blame ENGINEERS BECAUSE the owner is who makes final decision. I personally seen specs and plans and owner comes back and says too expensive etc so owner tells Engineer to cut cost. and engineer probably told owner wont work. but owner does not care because they are not regulated. like me selling you a car with no engine its be your fault for not looking under hood (i would never do that but private investors DONT GIVE A SHIT)
I guess they better quit calling them travel trailers if they’re not made to travel! Good video josh!
It's astonishing how many things aren't standard or required on an RV. Thank you for sharing this information! I learned a lot of different things I will need to be mindful of as a future RV owner.
Glad it was helpful!
EXACTLY WHY THEY MAKE 50% profit on this pile of junk.
Thanks for the great info. We are full-time RVrs who travel across Canada and the states twice a year (from Nova Scotia to California). It is very much appreciated that you are willing to speak about the industry and properly training RV owners so that we have realistic expectations of our rigs/homes. We "overuse" our 26ft travel trailer but we try to keep our weights at about 80 percent of the GVWR so far we have not had any major issues. Your education has helped us with our own expectations so that we can plan for contingencies I case of an accident or RV failure. 😊
Josh, your channel is much more than a simple RV review channel, it's practically a public service. Thank you for taking on these challenging topics and keeping all of us well informed.
Thanks 👍
I hope everyone appreciates the automotive industry. What a vehicle lives through compared to just about anything else is truly remarkable
Toyota makes an awesome vehicle. Some American models just rust out too much. My daughter just bought a brand new Chevrolet Traverse. Its already having electrical problems. A part has been on order a month. It took them a month to decide what part to try. Junk, junk, junk. All this electrical crap is garbage. And wait until you are charged a fee to use your heated seats 🙄
@@mycharmedunicorn8715 Here is A fun game to play as you drive around. Notice that 99% of all vehicles you will see with a headlight or driving light out will be a Chevrolet/General Motors vehicle! Obviously a wiring harness issue! Mostly trucks and SUVs, although you will see many cars as well.
Amen!!!! Automotive collision specialist here! I can agree!
@@mycharmedunicorn8715parts are a nightmare still… Rust issues depends where you live
So many You Tubers I see, when they are giving tours of their new 5th wheels..."Just look at all this storage. We chose this one because of the storage." Hope they check and make sure it is not overloaded with all the stuff they pack into it.
Nailed it! Good work Josh. Now everyone go to your corners, figure things out, implement those changes, and let's work things for the better.
It feels like a pipe dream but it really is realistically possible
Great job, great info! I just have a problem with someone purchasing any rv and you can only use it so many times or the frame will break. Especially if you have spent $150k or more.
Thanks for the videos!
Thanks Josh! Great info for new RV owners and experienced ones as well. Your effort to be as honest and even-handed about the problem, solutions, and causes is appreciated and refreshing. Your love for the RV community (owners, dealers, and manufacturers) comes out passionately in your delivery. Don’t change or apologize for that. 👍👍
I appreciate that very much. Ty
You have to be honest and call a spade a spade.
I have seen many of the same RVs having this frame failure issue.
Those RVrs are weighing their RVs, they are using the correct hitches, they are pulling with appropriate trucks (f350, 3500, etc).
I am an engineer by trade.
If you don't test and build with factors of safety, you will see what is happening. The manufacturer under-designed the frame.
They (RV manufacturer) made claims they cannot hold up to.
Enough is enough.
Quit blaming consumers.
Blame the ones responsible.
Did you take away from this that I was blaming consumers? Because I don’t feel that’s really where everyone needs to look. I think they’re using Arby’s the way that they’ve been led to believe they could. And that lack of clarity and information is a major problem.
@JoshtheRVNerd ,
Josh, I have been watching you for over a year now.
I have always thought that you were being upfront and honest with the information given until this video.
Manufacturers are not dealing fairly with the consumers.
You have to be the consumer's advocate.
If an RV Manufacturer doesn't like it, so be it.
Please be the advocate for the consumer and don't protect the manufacturers from faulty manufacturing processes and designs.
Dave here. I too watched the whole video and you did put the majority of blame on education and overweight. Nothing was put at the design table, especially the frame design. IMHO, it is ridiculous to build a 40+ foot RV with huge water / waste tanks and a cargo capacity of 1500 pounds. EDIT - especially for rigs "designed" with a designated washer (at 140ish pounds) and dryer (at 65ish pounds) location on one side of the front and not directly over the pin box. I have no dog in this race, but we almost did in late 2019. So very glad we didn't buy a RV.
I agree,. 100% blame on the manufacturing. What education can a consumer possibly do to be sure a manufacturer has properly engineered and then built the structure inside the trailer?
I am totally turned off with the whole industry. We bought a mint condition High country instead of a Grand Design because I am very educated on spotting improper design and build. We were being shown a brand new Grand Design and I went to simply open a door in the kitchen and the entire door came off in my hands. Tiny screws that had been "stripped " when sunk into the wood. How can I ever know what the parts I can't see are going to hold up over time?
Like the FRAME!
I like you Josh but in this video you are trying to spread blame over everyone! How can a customer be held accounted for frame's breaking other then complete abuse of the trailer and it's intended purpose.
I hope this bury's any manufacturer like Grand Design and wipes them out. The problem is that another one will fill the void.
agree with you. the other older gentleman who is a certified inspector all he does is click bait so people will
buy his materials!!
I will say that due to the length of this video, I had to wait a few days to watch it. Once again, your video was explained perfectly. I had never heard of too much truck before. But I drove MDT's for almost 30 years. So it makes sense. They bounce terribly. Especially when underweight. I will say that I have watched your videos for almost 6 years now. And you are one of the reasons we have the 5th wheel we do. I made sure it wasn't too long, and it had an impressive cargo capacity. Thank you for being there for us, the consumers.
Yeah I know it was long but I really want to go thru the situation piece by piece
Thanks, Josh for looking out for the consumer, educating us and helping to keep us safe. You're amazing!
You bet
I always appreciate your candor. There is nothing more impressive than honesty. On your dealer comment: You're absolutely right! There are not enough educated salespeople. I can't tell you how many times we were told. "Yeah, you can tow that with your half ton. No problem," when I knew from a lot of research (A lot of it from you), that it was too heavy for our F-150. We actually had a guy a few months ago that asked us right off the bat about our tow vehicle and then steered us away from overly heavy trailers. I let him know that it was much appreciated. I can't thank you enough for all of the RV education you have provided me. As a woman, I get a lot of people surprised I know my stuff when we go to look. My husband just stands back and listens with a big smile, which is pretty funny.
I think it’s really awesome that you got to encounter someone out there who is trying to do it right though
haha girl yep. Me too. Blue Compass tried to screw me. i not an idiot They add on 2% interest above what bank gives customer. you add up 2% interest on every loan that millions of dollars they squeeze out of customers.
With all of the other channels detailing their issues, this is a breath of fresh air. This represents the best depth of the issue. You raise an important issue when modifications are done to the hitch or using the trailerering systems out of specifications. In the same way, if I modify the suspension on my jeep wrangler, I assume the responsibility of potential failures. It is no longer Jeeps problem, even if it is a certified mechanic that does the work. It is not to shift blame, it is to assume the risk. The other points were fantastic. It does not diminish the issue, but it is a reminder of the rare nature of this issue. Great tips to check as we are on the road. Thank you again.
Really appreciate it
THANK YOU! I am so tired of all the incorrect information and basic wildfire panic going around.
Mostly, its either 1) and engineering failure or, 2) a manufacturing failure. And any of that could be exacerbated by overloading, extended use and publicity - many are the larger fifth wheels veing used fulltimd by popular RUclips personalities.
And none of them are taking any responsibility for the damage. If you point out that they may have contributed to the failure, you will be called a troll. I believe the cause is a combination of both manufacturer and owners.
I believe that there are way to many moving parts here to find the absolute reason (s) this is happening. ie: The road conditions, I-80 in ohio for example. The truck pulling it, is the suspension or tight or loose. The pin box jerking the trailer back and forth, The trailer suspension bouncing the trailer, improper loading of the trailer ( nose heavy or worse tail heavy or just overloaded entirely), Usage of said trailer (NOT accusing but salty northern roads or worse yet salty Florida beach air.) how the trailer is driven (85 mph down I-95 heading to Margaritaville, We have all seen it!) , is it a full time usage, proper setup/weight distribution and teardown, storage conditions when not in use. Oh the list goes on and on. Why yes sometimes I believe it is the fault of the trailer mfg or should I say the guy welding the rv frame on the line just having a bad day ( we all have had one at work admit it.), and last but certainly not least poor quality of materials received in the supply chain. All of these factors and more lead me to believe that in a case by case study we will find no one smoking gun but a combination of events and situations that is hard to quantify but all have roughly the same outcome.
@@michaelmccrindle1033 exactly! It's easy to point fingers at one thing or one entity but it most likely is a combination of things.
@@ryanryan6207 You are so right...I would be considered a troll. I believe there are many causes to what is going on. I have a 2018 394 Momentum, no issues to date. However, I tow slower than most ~65ish mph as a safety precaution. Here in Utah, I could do up to 80 mph and be within the speed limit.
Like many, I'm concerned about potential frame damage with my trailer and looking at everything that I might do to protect my trailer. FYI, I will be inspecting the lags in the bedroom and front of the frame. I've seen pictures of those put in by Grand Design and believe larger 1/2" lags that fit the holes in the frame would be an improvement. Keeping tow speeds down, especially on rough roads will surely help. I will be weighing my trailer to assure I'm not overloaded while also cleaning out and reducing weight in the front storage. Towing without a full tank of water whenever possible is also desirable. While not always possible, minimizing hard accelerations and abrupt stops is also desirable. (Keeping a good safe distance from vehicles makes this is easier to manage) As for acceleration, many of our TVs have more horsepower and torque than ever before. Hard acceleration will definitely impact the pinbox to frame and the vertical frame supports.
For those of us with a trailer already, we cannot change the engineering or build of our trailers...we need to do something preventative to protect our investment as they are. I'd love to see/hear more ideas from others about their thoughts. Thanks ryanryan6204 for your post. Love this channel. Thanks to Josh for taking the time to provide his insights.
I think you absolutely nailed it on this one! Education and information are sorely lacking. I spent 5 years researching before buying my RV, and still didn't find many of the answers.
All of these issues you discussed are reasons why I decided to go with a Class A. Like your customer, I work from the road nearly fulltime, and I sold my sticks n bricks. Class As aren't a perfect solution to these issues, but for fulltimers and most-timers, it's a good start. Even so, educating customers (and dealers) on the limitations is a MUST.
Thank you so much for “going there”!! I love learning from you and I truly appreciate how humble you are! AGAIN Thank you!
You are so welcome
I strongly agree that information needs to be more readily available. Additionally, build standards should be improved and customer service after the sale needs to be upgraded. Thanks for sharing this information. Awesome
My pleasure! Ty for listening. I know it was a lot
Love your videos and how educational they are. A subsection under the idea of "having too much truck" could also be, towing your 45' triple axle toy hauler at 85mph is probably a huge cause of some of this flex. I don't believe any of these trailers are engineered and designed to travel down the horrible Colorado highways at the speeds some of these tow vehicles are capable of. I try to stay below 65 everywhere possible and always watch the skidmarks on the highway showing me the heaves and bumps to slow down over.
Loads of great information Josh. Thank you for all the hard work and digging you put into this video. Not even being a 5th wheel owner myself, I appreciate all the hard work you did. Not an easy topic to talk about but you did a great job looking at all the angles and diving in to get the information out to help others out while learning yourself. 👍🏻
I appreciate it. Ty for watching
That was awesome! Someone who is new to the RV lifestyle hears about these challenges in the industry and I want to run far away. However, Josh you give me confidence that there are a lot of people in the RV industry that want more, higher standards, greater information and to set standards for improved best practices across all aspects of the industry. Thank you for the honest feedback and clear recommendations that you provided. Keep it coming!! This video should be standard for everyone to absorb so they can focus on improving the customer experience and increasing standards.
Thank you for the kind words. I feel sometimes like I’m shouting into the void but hopefully little conversations start leading the bigger conversations and eventually changes and improvements for everyone.
Preach brother - I have been wanting to get a 5th wheel, but with the sudden rash of broken frames (some call it flex). I have been doing some reach and noticed that most are the big 45’ trailers. Have seen several smaller (avg 35’) that have been all the way to Alaska that haven’t had that problem. I know that things break, and know RV’s aren’t any different. I just don’t want to wind up paying another 16,000 on top of purchase price for a repair that isn’t normal wear and tear.
Most of us who tow our RV with a semi-truck remove the commercial hitch and install a suspension RV hitch. The suspension hitch provides a much smoother ride. The commercial hitch does not pivot side to side putting more stress on the RV frame.
That’s something I’m going to try to learn a little bit more about giving the opportunity
Thank you for sharing this
Those that use a class 8 truck normally single up( remove a drive axle) and only use air ride suspension and rv air ride hitch.
Thank you Josh, your videos talking about good frames and suspension made it one of things I actually look for now. I wasn't even thinking about when I first started looking.
Glad I could help!
I appreciate your candor 1:12. The meat of your video - 2:50 to 39:12. - must also be complimented for your valiant attempt at nuance in explaining the issue and empathy for those who have had to endure the wretchedness of it all . Keep up the great work, Josh!
Thank you
Josh for RV President! Your honesty is truly appreciated.
Thx 🙏🏻
Your business Josh, needs fully regulated. It's run amuck and must change. The days of signing away your rights in purchase contracts with the dealer and manufacturers must end. Having no recourse against the dealer and having to sue in the state of Indiana must stop and stop now. What's in the BISH's purchase agreement? Does your employer have customers sign away their right to sue Bish's for warranty work not done or for product failure? I'm so proud that I researched deeply and then decided not to buy because of this type of business being done. It's shameful!
RARELY will I sit down and watch a 42 minute on RUclips. But this was well worth it. I have already seen a few videos on this issue with towables lately and this one is by far, the best and most helpful. We recently purchased our sixth camper and being another 46' toy hauler, I was extremely concerned with the "Frame Flex" topic.
But you hit on several great points that I think everyone should note; especially those who are buying the bigger fifth wheels (although Airstream is even having some frame failures on select models). Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts and your knowledge. You're an outstanding salesman.
Yeah it can happen anywhere for a number of reasons but recently seems most concentrated in a specific sector
This is your absolute best video EVER. I lost count of how many times you had me scratching my head thinking I never thought of that.
Wow ty
Fantastic Video Josh!
You nailed a lot of great information
Thank you for taking the time to watch and listen
As a retired truck, driver, I approve of this. People watch your axle weights if you have a halftime and fill up the back of the bed of the truck with firewood, it might tow terribly.Just sayin
Absolutely! Mechanic speaking Anytime you overload a vehicle suspension it will ride on an overload spring or bump stop( or when hitting a big bump the spring rate will increase dramatically) transferring to the axle housing and trailer frame. If your back and butt feel it, your trailer feels it! The public roads are also getting so bad with pot holes, causing all types of problems
Ty Bruce
Thank you so much Josh for explaining the frame flex. And the failure. I wanted you to ask you what it meant but I didn’t want feel dumb in asking. I’m so glad you are talking about it and explaining it. Thank you so much Josh!
You’re welcome Sherri. Glad it was helpful.
Just last week, my wife and I went into a dealer in northeast Ohio specifically looking at one model of 5'er we were interested in and explained why and that we had no intention of going bigger. In a matter of minutes, the dealer tried talking us into a rig that was at least 5k heavier and couldn't be towed by our 3/4 ton pickup. I hate this type of dealer and if he was the only one with the rig we wanted, i wouldn't buy it from him!
Thank you for your always honest conversations and insight into the industry NERD!
I try man. Thank you so much. I always wonder if what you experienced is a case of a shifty salesperson or a bad store culture
I think everyone knows rv quality has gone down !!! I believe manufacturers should build better products. With substantial better suspensions and pin boxes. These are meant to be moved often. Clearly, there's a problem with quality and building. Nice job Josh, great video !!!
Yup, especially the COVID(years) pandemic builds.
They will build you a better product if you’re willing to pay the price.
My rv cost me 150k. How much more price should i pay ?
I would add towing speed and very poor condition of our interstate highway system as apart of this complex problem as well. Well covered Josh.
Thanks so much for this excellent coverage of the frame flex issue. You did a remarkable job of explaining & provided great suggestions.
Glad it was helpful
Thank you for watching!
Thank you Josh. You always provide fantastic information and videos. You covering this "mine field within a minefield" topic and preseenting the facts are why we love, respect and TRUST you.
All are accountable for this, and it can be made much better, if not done away with entirely.
I really don’t disagree and I really feel it begins with proper education of all parties involved and distribution of information
Wow! I learn so much through your channel, Josh. Thank you for this ❤
My pleasure!
Seems you are putting a lot of this on owners and not the manufacturers, if they built a quality product meant to hold up over the long haul, a lot of these issues would be moot.
I would be curious to know if you saw the end where I had a message for mfgs and dealers
Or any of the times where I said “how can you fault an owner for never being told how they were “supposed” to use it”
Thank you Josh for trying your best to keep us informed. I hate it so much when my parents are right 😂. I love your videos and try our best like you to be honest in the videos we make. The only way change can happen is if information is given.
Man I try!
What an awesome, informative, and thorough video. My wife and I have owned two travel trailers and a fifth wheel. We are now own a Lance truck camper that we purchased new and really enjoy it. If we ever make the switch back to a trailer, it’s good to have the information you have provided. Outstanding work!
Josh,
My wife and I were at a show yesterday looking at RV's we were able to meet the owner of Alliance. Coley was very forth coming with all questions we had. To the point, his responses were in line with what you stated in this video. I asked him about the frame failure, and he did not avoid the question at all. As a matter of fact, he stated many of the same things you did as to why it is happening and where Alliance falls in that spectrum.
Thanks for always putting out the hard information and trying to do the right thing always.
I’m sure trying Phil. Thank you so much.
Our family is going full-time in a 23' Alliance Paradigm 390MP on Friday. After doing a lot of research and speaking to countless folks - both in the Alliance owners community and on the corporate side - we felt the most comfortable going with them. Time will tell if we made the right call but comments like yours are always reassuring to hear. Transparency is king!
With decades of testing and forensic failure analysis engineering experience, the RV Industry has legendary unacceptable component, parts, manufacturing, assembly, designs, and business practices that end users are frankly done with all the bs.
With record RV sales during the pandemic has resulted in record number of pissed off end users.
As a result there have been significant litigation cases significant talk of new legislative actions that hopefully will significantly improve designs, reliability, warranty, and service related issues for all parties involved.
I've seen it once. Someone took a toy hauler and converted it to gooseneck and overloaded it.
You always add education to your videos, and it is much appreciated.
Overloading is a issue but goosenecks are okay depending on the manufacturer. Grand design allows for the reese goosebox and therefore should not ever be a problem.
Appreciate you doing a deep and unbiased dive into this. Learned a lot from it.
Ty Robert
I own a 2022 Grand Design 260RD, the drivers side frame failed near the slide, Grand design took care of us 1000%, picked it up and took it back to Elkhart, fixed it, and returned it to us and made everything right. Still a happy GD customer. They stood behind the product and there customer.
Thanks for sharing. Love hearing from owners like this
Plans if mine start to flex. 1- remove axles and transfer rv to a 40ft Custom PJ Trailer. 2- go back to enjoying life
Thank you, Josh, for another excellent video! So glad that you emphasized scaling your rig, especially once it's packed with all the 'stuff' one travels with. CAT scales are great for this; gets all the axles (trailer and truck). I think it's important to also weigh the truck separately with full fuel and typical passenger/cargo load so the actual pin wieght can be calculated from the two scale weights.
Glad it was helpful!
Uncle Josh this video was incredibly good. So many details, questions and thoughts addressed to the best of your knowledge.
I’ve said it before as well as so many others, we need so many more Uncle Josh’s
The rv world as well as the world would start being a much better place.
Your passion for your profession and doing the best you can is so inspiring and you are a true saint.
Keep being and doing what you do👍🏻
I for one have learned so much and i truly appreciate all your work, honesty and integrity.
Take care, keep safe and see ya next time👍🏻🙏🏻😃
Ty Danny
Josh, Thank you for this video. I learned several things during your presentation. But most of all I appreciate you as a very passionate advocate for RV users..
Glad it was helpful
I never comment on YT videos but this is one of the most informative and balanced videos I have ever seen. Thank You for an excellent presentation!
Thank you, Mark
I knew you would provide logical information! Thanks so much for what you do and to Bish for supporting it.
Everyone from consumers to manufacturers has to focus more on cargo capacity. Way too many RVs have ridiculously low CC.
They do and I’ve definitely talked about that and plenty of videos
I watched this video in it’s entirety. You have provided me with great information as a new 5th wheel owner. I have tried to gather information from social media but that is hard to do because of the variety of options you get from that platform. Thank you for all you do for the camping community! And keep up the good work!!! See you at the CAT scales.
Ty
Thank you for doing this one. I know it is a scary subjeck to do. You informed us real good . I learned a lot in this one. Thank you again
My pleasure. Ty for watching
I’m glad you are taking this up, Josh. I reckon a whole lot of people are having these problems, and it’s very sad.
We are great full that all 3 of our Keystone models had no issues like so many others.
👍🏻 I’m glad they’ve treated you well. May I ask what you have or have had in the past?
@@JoshtheRVNerd: An ‘03 Montana, roughly around 30’, then we traded that in for an ‘06 that was a bit over/under 40’. After those two Montanas, (we sold them) we decided to demo our house and rebuild with new, so we bought a Keystone “Hideout”, which was great, but it was nowhere near a Montana.
The Hideout was the only one we lost $ on. All in all, I can’t say enough about Keystone products. The hideout was a a2016 model.
Great job Josh! One thing we can count on from you is being honest and transparent. We appreciate it man.
I Totally Agree
I appreciate that
Thanks for all the great information Josh. Appreciate all the investigation you do. Thanks again.
My pleasure!
Knowledge is key in anything that anyone does. The customer needs all the information they can get and they need to do their own research as well. You are a wealth of knowledge.
Ty
I appreciate your time and thoughts on this. As someone that is dealing with an issue directly caused by information given by the dealer, I agree that people need better training and education. Dealers also need to stand behind damage issues caused by bad info their representatives supplied during the demo at pick up.
I think that’s a very fair statement
I’m glad I watched the entire video. My emotions and thoughts changed from the first half to the end. Thank you.
I’d be curious if you’d be willing to expand on that a little bit. I really appreciate that you took the time to watch the whole thing and would be interested to know sort of what you thought versus perhaps what you think now. Whatever you’re willing to share, I would love to see.
@@JoshtheRVNerd During the first half I heard user overloading, user over using, user, user, user. I got a little upset. Then you switched to the manufacturer, sales, marketing, etc, and the pitch they all use. Granted the buyer bears responsibility for getting informed, but, the buyer can only make good decisions based on published information. I think the retail dealer will end up stuck with educating the buyer. Unfortunately that depends on the honor and integrity of the manufacturers, subcontractors and dealers. Is it possible for an industry to police itself? That would be the miracle.
On a side note, my wife and I have put money down on a 2023 Brinkley Z3100. We will be using our 2023 SRW gasoline F350. We bought the Z3100 at a RV show in Springfield MA last weekend. We will pick it up April 5. Our dealer is Hemlock Hill RV in Southington CT. We live in Cumberland RI. It’s not a very “local” dealer. Several months ago we visited there and felt comfortable with our sales person.
I hope I did the numbers right. Pray for us.
Did you receive my reply? It didn’t display in our conversation.
I applaud all the time and research that it has taken you to present this video. This issue has scared my wife and I from pursuing the purchase of a newer rv. But I have been truly enlightened by your video and now I feel much more informed about selecting an rv. Thank you so much.
Really appreciate you taking the time to watch. I won't claim to be the only person who knows what's going on here. There's more to learn still certainly. But I do think properly informing yourself before a purchase can more likely yield a positive result
We're not worthy ! We're not worthy ! Thanks Josh for this amazing video ! We learned so much from this video. We really appreciate your candid approach to helping RV'ers, dealers, manufacturers. We watched dozens and dozens of your videos for the past couple of years. After learning from those videos, we decided to purchase our RV from Bish's in Montana. Funny thing - the RV was built in Indiana (a couple hours from Dayton, where we live), then hauled to Montana, and then hauled back to Dayton when we purchased it in 2022. The early life fails where immediately evident. I fixed several issues myself, and we got other things fixed under the manufacturer's warranty. Please keep making these videos ! Stay nerdy, my friend.
Thank you for taking the time to watch. I do my best and I won’t claim to always get everything right but I’ll keep trying.
Thanks for your honest insight, I love Bish's RV. Any RV I've ever bought, is from your Idaho Falls facility, and I won't go anywhere else. They have always been fair and honest with me. Their service and quick turnaround is second to none.
Thank you so much
Thanks for taking this subject on. You did a great job and I feel like I learned a lot.
Glad it was helpful
Josh, I never comment on videos but WOW. Great job. Your passion / frustration comes through clearly. You hit all the major points. You are right , I am an engineer and we make things too hard for the layman to understand. Am I okay or not. It's tough. Keep up the great work.
I appreciate that
I really feel like this is just a symptom of a greater problem out there
Best video on the subject that I have seen so far. Eye opening. Thank you Josh.
Glad it was helpful. Ty
@@JoshtheRVNerd i have been watching your videos since before I was doing research to buy my TT. You are always upfront about each RV you present. Giving the good and the bad. And most important being honest about the TV ability to tow the Rig you are looking at.
Fantastic well stated and informative video. I am a fan of your videos and your integrity. Your discussion about knowing what your RV's real travel ready weight, and especially tongue real weight is right on point. My wife and I have been traveling all over the US and Canada in travel trailers for over 40 years. The dealership where we bought our first used travel trailer offered an RV and Towing "101" class. We are now in our 70's and on our 7th travel trailer. I believe the years of enjoyment we have experienced is in large part due to the excellent information we were given at the very start of our adventure. I will end this with the mantra that we were given at that first RV class, that we have lived by, "trailer level, tow vehicle level".
Thank you Ray I appreciate
Great video watch till the end no skipping. I feel your frustration. Thank you for the honesty.
Thank you
As always, I love your videos. Thankfully I have not had to experience frame failure. When looking for root causes, I feel like we should be looking at new (recent) potential causes that didn't exist pre-COVID. I don't ever recall hearing about this until fairly recently. For this reason I would not focus on operator error. I would simply look at what is different today that might be causing this to happen in such large numbers. New truck torque specs is not something I would have thought of, but yes, that's a lot more stress on the pin box. Keep your great videos coming!
Ty Eric!
So glad you speaking up for us. The regular man. ❤
I try
Thanks as always Josh, for your candid explanation and the education.
My pleasure!
you are so right about semi tractors, I just found out recently too, that its not a good idea. I didn't do it, but a buddy did, and it destroyed his pin box. Also as a former trucker, bob-tailing is treacherous. I also wouldn't doubt some people overload with cargo, without thinking about it, just seems natural to load up the family junk.
Yes we weighed our 2021 Montana High Country 295RL when we first got it and found out that the the truck itself was 360 lbs over on the chassis. Had to get a dually. I told the dealer when I was purchasing the 5th wheel that I was going to be overweight and their response was you have plenty of truck. I always have the trailer leveled before opening any slides. You are correct their are array of issues that causes the problems. I always say we can fix things that are broke but we are better if we know what caused it to break.
Thank you Josh, you are an amazing teacher. I appreciate all you to keep us involved and educated in the industry.
My pleasure!
Josh: I really appreicate all your videos with all the open and honest information. During your research on frame flex/failure, have you looked at weld quality. If there are poor welds and/or no full penetration welds, this could be another contributing factor.
Thank you Josh. You are a great advocate for safety and successful RVing.
I sure try. TY Cary
Josh another great video ur always trying to help consumers make betr decsions wen buying an R/V thanks fer sharing the info u do wish more folks in ur industry were like you
I won’t claim to be the best or know the most but I do what I can
THANK YOU for your continued updates on the RV industry! We appreciate you!!! Education is the best way to keep Rvrs safe on the road! We will be coming out to your Coldwater lot the end of this coming week to buy a RV! Tyler is our salesman! Hopefully we will see you there!
I THINK I am in the office..
Nice rant! Always appreciate your videos. Hopefully, this will start some needed change.
I hope so too
I attend a music festival that has the camping area in farm fields. There are lots of ruts and when it rains the campers have to be towed with huge 6 wheel tractors. I watch the $300k+ trucks and campers drive into these fields to camp and am not surprised there are issues. Also, getting to the Festival means driving down a narrow tree lined road and the tree branches are hitting the roof of the taller fifth wheels. Thanks for another informative video!
I appreciate your honesty!!! I wish I lived closer to your dealership. I’m picking up my first rv Monday .
Cute congratulations. I hope it treats you well.
Thank you so much Josh. We're lookin to buy a 40" 5th wheel next year and this subject has been worrying me. I better understand now. 😊
Information defeats mystification
Thank you so much for all the hard work giving us much needed info. You're the MAN!!
I really appreciate this Nancy. TY so much
Thank you Josh for your homework and continued sharing with the community. I just purchased my first RV (5th wheel) then “Frame Flex/ failure posts all over the interweb to scare the crap out of me. To some of the points in your video: I have been following you (and others) for over nearly two years before purchasing - evaluating my needs, tow vehicle specs, reading RV manufacture info and stickers/data tags. The BIGGEST thing that NEVER crossed my mind was that an RV might NOT have been manufactured for the sole purpose of dragging it all over the place. Maybe mine is… how should I know?? Manufacturers and dealers really need to help us understand these things and most importantly, as you stated make as much information about the their products readily available and factual. Keep the pressure on Josh and keep up the good work!
Ty so much. What did you get btw?
@@JoshtheRVNerd thanks for the reply Josh. I purchase a GD 150 series 270BN. It’s just the wife and I. We liked the floor plan a lot and wanted the 30ft length for National Parks etc. After all of my research GD, seemed at least, to still be a good brand. Seems to be different being said these days but the workmanship on our rig beat out most others we looked at in that class. FYI: I’m in California now but lived/ worked in Coldwater for 3 years and remember your family’s business.
Thanks for the discussion. We optioned in a Reese Goosebox for our fifth wheel over another brand simply because it was approved by the frame manufacturer and did not void the warranty.
Good call
Wonderful video. Thanks! You are very thorough. I agree with you. When we purchased our GD Imagine, we got it because it was rated for 0-100°. We knew that we were chasing from 65-85°. We also did not feel that it was made for a ton of movement. We work camp and only move twice a year so it may never affect us. We have a travel trailer and not a 5th wheel. We watch those who move constantly on RUclips. We are also very cautious about the weight that we put in our RV. There is so much that goes into these things. It's extremely complicated. Anyway, thank you for always providing us with the most up-to-date information and being as transparent as possible. We appreciate you! I'm going to head over and share it on my Facebook. You'll see it over there. ❤
Thank you for helping spread the message
Thanks for all your help.
👍🏻
Great video! Appreciate the info and sincerity. Your theories as to what could be contributing to this flexing are all good. Maybe the move to 13+ft tall is a contributing factor as well. I wish much shorter versions were still available.
Great video, Josh. Appreciate your drive.
Thanks 👍