Just a quick update of how to make this even better is some have suggested bolting through to the outside of the wall. As you could imagine this would be much stronger and full-proof than the lags but obviously has complications like hardware penetrating the exterior fiberglass. I love the idea of trying to get a bolt inside the wall or something like a Rivnut but there are difficulties to make that happen. The lowest hanging fruit is to use an Epoxy adhesive injected into the wall that the lag is then held in place by. I am going to try the Epoxy and see how that does to see if the easiest solution will work. Some people were asking about the spacing of our holes, which appeared a random to me, but here is what they are from rear to front since I had the back 2 for reference. 8 9/16", 10 3/8", 9 1/2", 9 1/4". Sorry metric would have been nice I know. ruclips.net/video/LSJpKWELlBg/видео.html
We have a new 24 Reflection 5th wheel 27BH. I checked today & found only 2 lag bolts as you did. They are tight for the moment, do you think I should add more or wait until th warrant is up?
I would put the lag bolts in wet with an adhesive that would bond to the wood, epoxy would work, sort of like LocTite. The problem with lag bolts and wood is verry different rates of expansion and contraction if you are driving through changing temperatures. The other problem is moisture, this is where a bonding medium may help to maintain a better connection.
Are you happy with the change adding more lag screws? Have you pulled the filon? I have a 2023 311BHS and it only has 2 lags. Considering adding more. Did you drill all the way into the aluminum/wood and then install the lags?
@@dlsimes it’s funny because I keep hearing about other manufacturers, but for some reason the same models with grand design keep popping up. Never anything else. Not saying it’s not happening, I’m just not seeing it in my feed.
I have a2021 Reflection 31MB and dealt with this about 6 months ago. I added 2 more lags on each side of the bedroom - total of 4. Due to excessive pin box movement independent of the upper deck, off came the front filon. I only had access to 2 lags per side due to upper deck flooring. All 4 were undersized and loose. Upsized to 1/2” and then spot welded the head to the frame to prevent loosening. Ugly part…the frame strap supporting wall only had 3 screws, sloppily installed at an angle, and counter sink screws were used on flat surface. All showed signs of pulling out. Replaced all frame strap screws with 6 ledger lags per side. Buttoned up and it’s a different trailer when underway. Solid feel and flex is what you would expect when in tow. Minimal,inadequate, and incorrect fastening of upper deck to frame. Poor construction by Grand Design in my case.
It is totally asinine to buy a brand new fifth wheel and then expect the owners to take the carpeting out and check the bolts. I understand maintenance starts as soon as you take possession but this is ridiculous. When calling GD, instead of telling you to add lag bolts, they should have apologized and fixed it right away for free. It appears their solution to problems is to tell you anything to get you off the phone completely. In my RV market search, GD is off my list.
I agree I think on the frame issues the manufacturers should say hey bring it in and will repair it. Even if they charge a minimal cost of just the repair work for those that are five years or older. As long as you did, not alter the RV beyond the specifications.
GD has become another pig with lipstick, just like the rest of the manufacturers. VanLeigh was a quality unit until they were closed down. Brinkley is doing the best job producing a quality RV.
Well stated opinions in this video! Just my opinion. Lag bolts are made to attach something to wood that is continuous along the threads. Putting a lag bolt into aluminum tube and a tiny piece of wood that will absolutely split, is a misapplication of a fastener.
I’ve had a fair amount of experience with this issue on my 2019 320 VanLeigh 5er (installed sleeve anchors myself 3yrs ago, had manufacture add wood into the channels, and last summer Tiffin pulled cap and added internal aluminum structure to the walls as well as additional bolts etc between frame and wall). I’ve also watched many, many frame flex videos over the last few weeks just for curiosity and entertainment. Your video was BY FAR THE BEST ONE OUT THERE about understanding the real problem, being objective, and recommending some real solutions. Great job!!
Instead of having wood inside those narrow channels, and using lag bolts, they should have captured nuts in those channels so the bolts can be directly threaded into the channel.
OSB strand board and lag bolts have NO business in any RV. After seeing this for the past few years at RV shows I bought an older used unit that is wood-free. Making excuses for poor quality frame welds because the manufacturer is too busy making quota won’t make the manufacturer change their ways. It’s about profit and nothing else.
Jared, I have been a NRVIA Certified Inspector going on 5 years now. I been following your channel for several years. This problem is a lot bigger than both Lippert or GD are letting on. IMHO the problem is two fold questionable welds along with under engineering the connection between the frame and house. I'm not an engineer however 3 of my kids are..Lol Relying on two undersized lag bolts to hold one of the most stressed areas together is negligence imo. The penny pinchers at the RV factories are going to cost the companies a lot more money in the long run with these very short sighted cost saving efforts. Owners of these larger toy haulers and 5th wheels should be very concerned about resale values. I've already had numerous customers that have asked me to inspect toy haulers to see if they have frame issues. Then I have to break the bad news to them that it's not possible to tell if there are broken welds or missing components without tearing things apart and we just don't do that as part of an RV inspection. As part of my consulting business I have advised potential buyers what to look for and if there are any concerns to walk away and they have ! It's already affecting potential purchases and I believe that will continue to grow as buyers gain knowledge of the issue not just with GD but all manufacturers of these larger units. Kudos to Brinkley for being forthcoming about the issue and at least attempting to prevent the problem with a better connection. I own a GD trailer built pre- COVID. I wouldn't even consider a GD product if I decide to upgrade to a larger unit. Not a chance....
Asking aluminium box fitted with undersized timber to be a major structural part of construction is surely the problem. The oversized holes and small bolts combine in movement,and that timber inside the aluminium is going to fail . The under engineering with these RV structures is part of the issues,but they try to say that everything is engineered designs,Rubbish it's cheap engineering. Still waiting to see someone Annalise the steel used in the frames ,prove that it is American Steel and what it's made up of
The fact a lag bolt is used instead of a threaded (bolt and nut) fastener is a major issue and should be the focus. As an mech engineer with 18+ years of machine/structure design I would never spec a lag bolt into composite aluminum/wood, even if its in shear, especially on a mobile unit that is under constant vibration/stress/strain when in motion. The engineers that approved this should be ashamed. Period.
I agree with you, a nut and bolt would be far superior. I don't own a 5th wheel, but as I watched this, I started wondering how I would fix this. I wonder if that wood, in the aluminum tube could be removed. If so could a length of angle or C channel aluminum be slid if there? If that could be done, then once the additional piece was added, the bolt holes from the frame could be marked. Then remove the additional angle ( C channel ) from the tube, drill holes and fasten some nuts in place. Slide it back in and use some bolts through the frame with some locktite to bolt into the the nuts and lock everything together. Anyways, hopefully sombody comes up with a better solution than just lag bolts in a thin piece of wood.
Also don't forget about the strength of the steel itself. There is good quality steel and cheap steel. They may have the same gauge, but the difference in the make up of the steel is totally different.
Jared, with all the people talking about this, you were the first person to say that everyone has some responsibility for these problems. I was taught you have to take care of your stuff if you want to keep it nice. I also agree with others here that if there were five holes, there should have been five bolts. I would rather see a flat bolt head on the outside wall than I know it goes the whole way thru. Lag bolts seem like the wrong fasteners for this application. Again, great balanced take, keep up the good work. Safe travels and happy camping.
Actually Josh from Josh the RV Nerd at Bish's RV RUclips Channel said that everyone bears some blame, including the dealerships. He had a great video like this one that also helped explain this whole situation.
Great video! I discovered a crack in my side wall last October and quickly learned that I had the dreaded frame flex issue. My rig is a 35' 2020 Keystone Alpine. The shop found, like yours, that many of the lag bolt holes were empty, and also most of the dead wood inside the square tube was missing. But the biggest problem with mine was that the philon siding was not glued / bonded to the aluminum structure except around the edges. I am told that the primary strength in the side walls comes from the bond between the fiberglass and the aluminum. In my case there were no broken welds. Just too much flexing which caused the side wall to eventually fail. Thanks again for this discussion, as I think it explains how important it is to actually build the rig to the engineers specs and stop cutting corners.
So that may have been on purpose (but possibly not) as now with 5 bolts the wall may be too rigid when going down the road and break something else. The 5 holes could be for different models are even manufacturers that require different placement. I don't know this for sure, but many years ago I worked in manufacturing for a company making fighter jets. There were parts that had holes that appeared to be never used. But, the part may have been used else where on the plane where the hole was used. Or, a hole was cut for future modifications and cheaper to do it that way. Again, could be many reasons for holes not used. Again, don't know in this case but from an engineering / manufacturing standpoint there are many possiblities.
@@fuzzywigglebutt Unlikely. I can think no circumstance you’d want a loose wall on a major structure. Especially when you are talking about cheap lag bolts into minimum wood/aluminum structure. In this case you want ZERO movement.
@@fuzzywigglebutt IRONICALLY, this is exactly what Grand Design told me when I asked them about Jarreds video. they told me that those wholes were for different models, and by adding more bolts I would be transferring stress elsewhere on the rig; the holes were not used to allow a certain amount of flex needed to avoid stress elsewhere. I dont know who to believe. It shouldn't be like this. it should be that I have to become an engineer to make sure my rv is built safe.
Jared, you have done a fantastic job explaining this problem. I do not presently own a towable but own a class A and have owned 8 RV’s over 40 years. I’m a Retired heavy construction professional with an engineering degree. You could not have explained this any better or clearer. It’s not all the manufacturers fault, but they have their share of responsibility to make these better. Two bolts may have worked on paper but obviously didn’t meet actual use and road conditions. I get why people are upset and it is harder to own an RV if you’re not able to do some work on them, maintain them, weight them and understand them. It’s sold to them as a carefree lifestyle. None of my 8 rigs were without issues. You have created a video everyone, regardless what type RV they are considering, should view. Thank you
I am a retired tool and die maker and I have so much comment to add to this video, but I don't have the time. The point I'm going to TOUCH on is, thread engagement! All threads have a helix angle! In this discussion, the mating structure of the rv is thin structural tube, 90 deg's. Mathematically, this works as a single point of contact, helix on the thread vs rectangular tube. Lag bolts are generally(ish) 8-10 threads per inch. The wall thickness of the tubing is typically not more than 1/8", which leaves a material engagement thickness of, 1 thread engagement! There is no way this is a structurally positive thread engagement! Fastener failure is pretty much guaranteed! It won't matter if the forces are "in shear" or "pull out", sooner or later, that fastener is going to fail!
Imagine having to go through this with your safety related problems with your vehicle. The RV industry has convinced us that their products are of questionable build quality and the related problems are to be expected. They’ve also gradually exposed us to the concept of “you probably caused it” or “not our problem that’s the supplier’s problem”. From 5 decades of RV ownership I can honestly say that they’re almost all poorly built and as long as we keep buying them they have no motivation to build them better.
I'm a welder, I went from a job doing military items inspected by a in plant government inspector (that was quality before quantity) to a job that was mass production (quantity over quality) and the unwritten rule was only fix what the inspector catches! That's how the company increases it's profits. So sad. Not all welders worked by that unwritten rule!
As an auto Tech [Retired] I watched manufacturers ''skimp'' on fastners in the past...and most of the time it came back to bite us in the keester! Now, as an RV owner, I see this all the time! After problems with our first rig, I now go front to back looking for these issues and others. Iwould have done the exact same thing you did with the lag's...sure would be great if they could take the time to weld nut bungs into the frame or frame plates, like you said, lags into wood in such a critical area is questionable! great job Jared!
I think the manufacturers, especially Lippert, could probably also invest in technology to help make sure the welders are able to consistently get good, fast welds. It might be overkill to start deploying robot welders like cars use, especially since they make so many versions of the frames, but that doesn't mean that new welders with features that help make sure the person doing the welding can focus on the welding itself while the machine handles the adjustments or using different types of welding could help ensure flawless welds every time. If nothing else, it would take some pressure off the welders and allow them to really focus and not feel a time crunch. From friends I know who work in Elkhart at some of the manufacturers, they use every trick in the book to put the, mainly contractors, doing the actual assembly under a time crunch to ensure they're always trying to go as fast as possible. While that may roll more units off the line, experience has shown, across any industry, that constantly trying to operate at the absolute maximum pace will always lead to compromises somewhere. I've been told that part of why there's so much sawdust coming out of new RVs is because they no longer budget time for the contractors to clean up, if they spend time doing that they're getting fewer units done and getting paid less. That anecdote alone tells you a lot.
I’m shocked to see a Reflection missing so many lag bolts. We have been dealing with this problem and our newly installed lag bolts are backing out AFTER having GD repair our frame breaks. We are having GD look at it once again to see where the repair will go next.
I have a Grand Design and have loose lag bolts that I questioned about in the beginning. No big deal I was told by the dealer. I will definitely check them again and add more if I can.
I 100% suggest doing what you did in the bedroom especially if you have a grand design. I have the exact camper you have but it is a 2018. I just removed the carpet and wood and found that I had five empty holes on both sides, this is absolutely ridiculous. Way to go grand design!
Thanks for the video, and showing your repair! I would think that having 5 holes and only 2 bolts is because 2 bolts is enough to get past a 1 year warranty. For most users, one year is only 2 to 4 trips, and not enough time/use to have the bolts work loose to where the owner has a warranty claim. It would be interesting to see the engineer drawings to determine if they call for 2 or 5 lags to see if production is following the engineered plans. You might add some locktite to the lags to create a chemical bond to prevent them loosening.
@AllAboutRVs if the wood could be removed from the square tubing, you could install 1/2" T-nuts into the back of the wood strip and use bolts with lock tight instead of lag screws.
As a full time RVer touring the US, we see a lot. The number of 40ft+ toy haulers that seem to be loaded to the max is normal. While we were in St George UT., I saw a couple toy haulers loaded with equipment STACKED in the back. The overhang past the rear axle on these units is huge. The example I refer to above, the driver had to set additional jacks under the rear frame before he opened the ramp. If this is required, I would assume the mfg would have provided jacks at those points. And who knows how that trailer handled going down the road at highway speed with so much weight on the backend. Ownership responsibility is absolutely required. At the same time, mfg - as you clearly showed in this video (Grand Design!) - should build these just a bit better. Like using 5 one half inch lags rather than 2 three-eights lags. After all, they drilled holes for 5. Spend the extra $6 per side and do it right. And BTBRV video was good, but like you showed on your trailer, they can talk all they want, but the quality just isn't there. I guess we need government regulation here since we're talking about serious investments in RVs, and dealers/mfg wash their hands as soon as you're off the lot. And if you finance, you agree to sign away any real rights in arbitration. Look at your contract. Another great video.
Jared, will post the answer to many who question why only 2 lag screws instead of 5?. The missing 3 lag screws on each side seems to be a gross oversight which more than likely would lead to excessive flexing and eventually frame failure. I too am questioning the use of lag screws into alum box tubing stuffed with wood 2x2's. It seems when the larger trailers with drop frames and massive storage became the "perfect storm" to create the failing frames. I too want to see a better attachment method to build a stronger combined structure that will handle the heavier weights and loading conditions experienced in the larger 5th wheels. All in all an excellent video!
Grand Designs response to the flex issue was pathetic and clearly written by attorneys…basically we will fix the problem “if” it’s our fault but we’re really going to blame you the owner for misuse. 🙄
@@Rcoon3 I agree that Lippert and Grand Design are mostly at fault. That being said, I’ve seen quite a few owners overload their toy haulers and Solitude’s and claim they know how to load them in spite of the unit’s capacity. My experience working at a campground is that everyone thinks they are experts at loading and pulling RV’s.
Great video and great information. I totally agree on all fronts with you Jared. When I worked at a lumber yard and talked to contractors, they all said the exact same thing you said in regards to making changes off the engineers approved plans and it really got me w]seeing the loose lag bolts. My mind said, 5 holes needs 5 bolts, maybe some LVL material to screw them into, then a flat washer and a lock washer between the lag bolt head and the OSB, the flat washer to give the lock washer a solid surface to flatten out and compress as designed to do and the lock washer to stop the g]bolt from backing out. Another common fastener option would be a GRK style screw, an engineered lag bolt replacement option that is smaller in diameter. I have sense moved into the welding trade and I can tell you that any good weld takes time to do properly and needs to not be rushed. In my simple mind it boils down to: follow what the engineer called out, 5 holes means 5 bolts are used and are of proper size and attachment instructions not matter what. In all that, you did a great job and I truly enjoy the great videos you put out. Loads of great i formation that is explained very well. 👍🏻
Good point! Also, the movement and vibration of going down the road will cause them to loosen over time. I don't know how how it could work in the manufacturing process but bolts, washers, and lock nuts would be more appropriate for a structure subjected to vibration than lag bolts.
I was interested so I went to check ours in that area. I have always seen the two lag bolts were there, never checked them. Mine were loose, loose enough I can back them out by my fingers, with no washers and why go thru the carpet with them? I took them out, pulled the carpet, pulled the wood box they build around that frame piece and low and behold......I too have 5 holes on each! What the heck GD! I placed 3 more lags per side, with washers and for good measure I coated each lag with gorilla glue to help them not back out. Now for the intriguing part. Our bedroom floor at the top of the stairs always had a creaking sound when walking on it, the sidewalls in that area always sounded kinda loose and hollow, just figured since the trailer is a 150 series it was thinner and lighter and when placing the trailer on the truck there was always a creaking sound on both walls under each window. I assumed this was normal cause of all that weight coming down one a single attachment point when on the truck. Well, the bedroom floor doesn't creak when walking on it, the walls feel solid and zero creaking sound when hitching up. Unbelievable! Maybe all of that was supposed to move a little? Maybe we are not supposed to have all 5 lags attached to the wall, time will tell but now I feel better at least. I doubt I would have ever had the issue some owners are having with frame issues, we do not have any slides in the bedroom and we are only 32.4 ft. We own a 2020 GD 295RL. 150 series. Actually, fingers crossed never had a major problem just the usual trim pieces coming off. 4 years and 16k miles. Thanks for the insight
Great job with a very hot topic, looks like we all need to do a better job. One of the ways we can work on this is buy the quality units and share our experience. If you quit buying poor quality units things will change. Thanks!
We are picking up our GD27bh today. We have been RVing for 14 years in the same TT we bought new. They could just through bolt the sidewall to the frame and have a nice extruded aluminum profile channel with a cap to cover the heads on the outside. If it looked nice I don’t think anyone would question it if meant the attachment was more secure than just lags holding the sidewall to the frame.
We bought the same 1 in November, fixing to take out next week for the 1st time. Look that camper over good. Found a air duct undone in the basement so far. Hopefully nothing more. It's our 1st camper.
My GD Solitude S2930 RL (34’ long) has a broken front structure - missing 2 lag screws in bedroom, screws were only 3/8” instead of 1/2”. Service center found an additional 6+ bolts under front TPO pinbox covering and broken flat steel wall sills on both sides. Waiting on next step - Service stated it needs to go back to factory - GD said they will cover and make repairs.
Jarod, thank you so much for this video. There are too many people talking about things they do not understand and ultimately hurting the outdoor hospitality industry as a whole. No person or company is perfect and most people only "Know" a part of the truth. A 1/2 lie is more dangerous than a full lie. I love what you have done and hope it goes viral! (FYI-Love JD too!)
It's to the point that people need to check the frame out regularly just like checking tires and springs. It pays to keep the tow vehicle in mind too. I'd make sure the suspension is working well. If the tow vehicle has hard springs or air bags that are pumped up to the max it could add extra jarring that the manufacturer's engineer never accounted for.
You, JD, Josh & everyone else doing videos on this issue are ALL feeding us BS hoping that we are as stupid as you think we are. The REAL ISSUE is that Lippert and ALL RV manufacturers with these issues, are not willing to accept any responsibility for building a piece of crap. Relying on a few lag bolts into 1'"of wood to support 14,000 lbs of trailer is ridiculous. The whole concept of the side wall being such a big part of the structural integrity is backwards thinking. The side walls should only be additional support. AS for the welds, if they were any good, they would not break, the surrounding metal would fail first. Jared, you're right All owners should be inspecting their units on a regular schedule . They should be looking at tires, roof condition, caulking, visually checking suspension components, but to expect owners to inspect for welds and loose mounting bolts is crazy. At most they should not ignore any body cracks. But it should never be expected that they take any responsibility for the failing frame. Would you take any responsibility if your truck frame started to fail, "HELL NO" you wouldn't. You'd be your truck dealers worst nightmare. So why is an RV any different. Wake up people!!
I agree with you completely. I have stopped watching and supporting these channels that are continuously taking up for the manufacturers. We need to support those channels who support and stand up for the consumer. It is very obvious in this video that the RV is not adequately assembled to not fail. They are banking on the RV just making it to the minimum years of the warranty or being sold to a second owner so they are no longer liable. They are liable in every definition. Car manufacturers would have already been forced to recall. Something has to be done.
Unfortunately the two of you are incorrect on this issue. RV repair is all I do and have done for 40 years. The “pin box” weight (how much wt exerted downward at the king pin) is never mentioned . This is why the mfg’s will grease the squeaky wheel ONLY when they know with certainty there is a defect.
It doesn't even seem to be the actual frame (meaning the steel lippert frame underneath the RV) that's flexing. It's the superstructure being improperly attached to the frame and not rigid enough itself that's flexing and breaking.
Josh and JD are big part of the problem too. Josh tried to tell me that the giant bubbles all the roof of the trailer he was reviewing on his channel were from "out gassing" how many people has he told that to. JD I don't know where to start
It seems to me like these are destined for failure using lag bolts to hold these together. I have never seen a short lag hold long term on things like a house deck. Thru bolting these like DRV and Riverstone do is a much better way.
I totally agree that lag bolts and screws into wood for a structure that experiences an earthquake going down the road is sufficient. This needs better engineering like a strip of metal with welded on nuts instead of wood for example.
Jared - nice work showing how the frame AND the body need to work together to provide structural support. It seems like a VERY poor design to use lag bolts in material that has very little bite, especially in something that encounters as much vibration as an RV does. Mechanically fastened bolts would seem like a much better solution. I hope you do a follow up to see if 2 lag bolts is the proper installation method from the manufacturer, or if some worked out, or if Lippert recommends all five being used. Something still doesn’t seem right & there is more to uncover.
Great job as always. If you guys stay on the manufacturers by pointing out what they are failing to come to grips with, people will understand that they can do better. Passing the buck isn’t a fix. Engineering a solution is what is needed. Thanks and let’s get the right fittings for the pex/flex tubing problem on that list as well.
Nothing wrong with the Flex tubing....the problem is attaching it to Pex fittings. There is a correct way to do that but it would cost the manufacturers a little more in fittings and labor.
See Rigor RV Repair RUclips channel for more information on this plumbing problem in the RV industry. He does a great job explaining the problem and the solutions.
Thanks for showing how the lag bolts are used to attach the sides to the upper deck. I've been seeing lots of videos on this and wondered how this was assembled.
2 is adequate? Maybe under ideal conditions. A few more lag bolts won't break the company. Totally agree with the way those bolts are connected. Putting 2 lags into a thin piece of wood for something that sits in the weather and then drives down the road isnt idea.
Thanks for this info. I saw a gap next to my stairs into the bedroom. Did place two additional lag screws, but didn't get the gap to completely close. This was several years ago. I am going back and beef it up as you suggested. Thanks again.
All About RV's You should drill through to outside & use 5/16 th. Coach Bolts with Nylock Nuts & Repair washers , Paint the slight dome heads same colour as outer panels , then you'll be able to wrench them up tight.
Thank you for this video. I have a Reflection 150 and while I don't have any issues and my "Qty 2" bolts are tight. I want to get ahead of any potential issues. Especially since my bolts are not uniformly distributed along the frame. They ran two bolts in and they are no more than 6-8" apart. These things are assembled really quickly...too quickly.
Riverstone,DRV and Luxe use Lippert frames. They don’t have any frame failure! Main reason is all steel box frames,3.5”walls and superior wall attached to the frame. JD love’s Riverstone’s and has said he has never heard of a frame failure in a Riverstone. We are on the Riverstone forum’s and no one has ever said anything about that issue.
Thanks so much for these GREAT videos! Appreciate your balanced approach on this issue. I have a GD Reflection 150 273MK, similar floorplan without the bunkhouse. Checked the lag bolts, sure enough, only 2! need to add at least 2 more on each side.
Jared, Awesome video and thank you for a real description of the lag bolts!!! Owner of a 2021 GD 344GK. My rv isn't really showing any signs either but I will be checking them out. I will say we are buying an expensive unit that should be road worthy for multiple years!! The manufacturer has to do a better job at building them so the end product meets up with the lifestyle they say these units are designed for!!
I have seen some pictures of frame damage. The steel looks light duty compared to the loads it has to bear. Two places that seem under engineered are at the fifth wheel frame to the lower frame and at the point over the axels. I also wondered why weight limits are not noted on each compartment that is used for storage. It would be easy to keep with in weight limits of the trailer but over load at some point of the frame capacity. The roads compound the stress to the frame and wonder if the manufacture has tested the frame after design before building the cabin on top. The frames in commercial semi use are built for heavier loads and seem to hold up fine. Some of the repairs I've seen transfers the stress to other points of the frame. Kind of like kicking the can down the road. If the frame is too weak to take the stress, then it's just to weak.
First thing I did when I bought my truck and trailer was to install an air ride hitch. I have a medium duty truck and I knew the suspension on the truck was very stiff. I wanted to take the stress out of the front of the trailer as much as possible.
A lot of motorhomes have Freightliner chases - a manufacturer of commercial freight carrying trucks owned currently by Daimler of Mercedes Benz fame. I've never heard of any problems with their chases. My 21 year old Tiffin has a Freightliner chases.
Great video Jared, I am considering pulling out the Lag screws and replacing with stainless steel bolts, washers and nuts. Just need to find the right piece of trim to use on the outside that I can make weather-tight. Keep the great videos coming.
Hi The main frame should NEVER EVER be designed to rely on the skin or anything else of the trailer for strength. You will NEVER EVER find a lowboy or highboy hauling heavy equipment that depends on the wooden planking for part of the strength of the trailer. Build a frame strong enough in the first place. Thanks for listening!
I totally agree. Paraphrasing Matthew 7:24-27, only a fools builds his house on sand. As far as I'm concerned, Lippert sucks. I will not buy a trailer with a frame made by Lippert. A few of the smaller manufacturers make their own frames. I would like to see Jared check with them to see if frame flex is an issue.
Very well presented. This issue has put our upgrade in RV on hold. I believe that the frame needs revisit in design. Yes some issues can be caused in use and care.
Thanks for sharing! I think others are in the same boat, waiting to see what improves or explore the idea of other brands that are handling it well like Brinkley.
Alternate to lags? Through bolts with large washers. You’ll see them outside, but it’ll be secured well. However, lag bolts/screws work well when installed correctly. That small wood fill inside the steel frame didn’t appear big enough for that 1/2” lag.
I saw a few videos where they are saying the engineers admit that the frames are not built to hold the weight of the RV as built even before owners putting their stuff in
Even though our Grand Design 260RD, at just under 30', is probably not a leading candidate for "frame flex" I decided to see if i could add bolts because the two existing bolts do back out from time to time. I did remove the carpet on the door side to exactly identify the bolt spacing. For reference I numbered the bolts from 1 to 5 from the back to the front of the RV. Spacing is: 1 to 2: 7-5/16"; 2 to 3: 11-1/2"; 3 to 4: 9-1/4"; and 4 to 5: 9-1/4". Having that information it was fairly simple to find the bolts on the other side without removing the carpet. Adding the #3 bolt on each side went well. However I was not able to add bolts to 4 & 5. I'm guessing there was some kind of metal structure on the other side of the frame - yes, I'm sure the bolt was going through both sides of the frame - because it would not thread. I tapped on a long nail in the hole and the tip came back blunted. It did not sound like a good idea to drill or force anything without being able to see what I was going into so I have decided to be happy with adding one bolt.
Yes that is the trick but I think possible. One thought I have is a welded on L bracket to the inside of the wall that bolts to the chassis. I think it could work the problem is how to incorporate it efficiently into production.
Here is an idea for a video on what flex looks like. Mount a laser alignment tool and a video camera on the same mount and record what happens as you drive around and what happens when each of the wheels on the trailer and the truck are run over a bump or stood on a short lift, like a 2x4 or 4x4.
Being in the collision industry, there are a few manufacturers using rivet bonding on their vehicles using impact resistant structural adhesives. GM is one of those manufacturers, the rivet bonding process brings better than 10K of shear strength.
There's definitely better ways to be securing the house structure to the main frame. Car industry is regulated by safety laws, RV industry is not. Manufacturing companies are putting the cheapest way they can to get past warranty, which the RV industry warranty are complete garbage anyway. Until this industry is safety regulated there's going to be issues in some brands. I do however agree rivets would be 10× stronger and not add weight really just time in the manufacturing process!
To the best of knowledge the automotive rivets that currently have the highest strength are the GM SR1, SR2, and SR3 rivets, they are the closest you can get to a solid rivet. Our normal rivet guns cannot fully pull them, I had to buy a rivet gun that would pull 4K psi. I have not seen anything like them in the automotive industry.
3M makes the impact resistant structural adhesive that GM, Honda, KIA and several other OEMs have used using, part number is 07333, strongest stuff I’ve seen in my 27 years.
Jared, Maybe I missed it, but did you do an install video on the plate you added in the propane storage area? I plan to add this plate, and some type of wood glue or locktight to existing lag bolts as I have 1 that likes work its way loose. If these 2 upgrades to seem to make a diffference then I’m going to remove carpet and add the additional lags. Would like to add the plate first. Thanks, and appreciate the videos. (31MB owner)
I agree that if you have 5 holes, there should be 5 lag bolts. To me though, whether is 3/8 or 1/2 inch lags, there is less than an inch or so in the wood. Wood, bouncing down the road, seems to me it would lose a little "bite" over time. They should switch to bolts with red LocTite that go into a type nyloc nut that won't loosen up. The RV is only as strong as its weakest link and this looks like a poor way to attach walls on something that encounters "earthquakes" on every travel day! The RV industry is at a tipping point and the first one to figure it out and massively advertise their benefits and quality will be the big winner.
Jared would you consider going to Brinkley and video their wall and how it connects to frame? If they are different I would sure be interested in buying Brinkley
I definitely think if you’ve overloaded your RV or you’ve changed some structural piece of it that you are accountable for that. At the same time I think it’s crazy the lack of responsibility or the warranty piece of it, that they just kind of throw up their hands and say oh you’re a year or two old no can do for you. Those frames should be meant to last longer on Wells than that. Great video Jared I agree it is a partnership to maintaining an RV, but at the same time I do think structural things like welds need to be the responsibility of Lippert and the RV company.
, so there was only 2 lag bolts little as they were. Why not drill new holes away from theirs and rebolt it. I would think that the holes that was there would be wallered out. Great video
Just curious did you check the drivers side to see if it only had two lag bolts in it, and I’d GD gave you an explanation as to why there were only two?
One of the things that I noticed from watching the Lippert frame shop videos is that there seems to be a massive disconnect between the care and competency that Lippert said that they placed in their frame welding, and the videos that owners are showing of the Lippert frame welds that appear to have been done by a welder with the skill level of a grade 10 high school shop class.
I've noticed a lot of the manufacturers seem to just, leave out screws and bolts that could and probably should have been there. I can only assume the engineer designed for those holes to be used, hence them being there, so there's no excuse for cheaping out and not using them. My counter/cabinets only had 2 screws joining them, out of 8 predrilled, pre countersunk holes provided. Also had my sliding bedroom door fall down because they didn't quite get the wall lined up with the beam in the roof so the door track was just hanging from 3 screws into the 1/8" plywood ceiling. I've seen a lot of things where, as an engineer, I can tell that the engineer designed things to be a certain way, and they just, did something different that really doesn't make sense. In some cases it doesn't even save them time or money to build that way, so I have no clue why they deviated. Maybe someone just didn't want to be told what to do or how to do it (my dad will 100% do things a different way just so he wasn't obeying someone else, so I can absolutely see someone going "Well I want to do it THIS way" just because.)
Cheaper materials, quicker builds equal more profit! That’s the manufacturing side. Owners tend to overload the fifth wheels, while down south recently I noticed a lot of very large trailers with reduced weights? Have the frame materials got thinner? I have an older fifth wheel designed for a 1500hd truck and it still weighs 10,000lbs and it’s 29ft long, I use a 2500hd to pull it.
Question. Do you feel it would be effective adding an epoxy to the holes before screwing the lags in? Similar to mounting anchors in a concrete slab? Im considering this.
I am thankful people such as you and Jared can identify these things and fix them yourselves. But there are a lot of people who don’t have that skill set, but will have that problem. That is why I feel the manufacturer should take some responsibility again if you have overloaded your RV then it’s on you, but if you were within your weight limit and haven’t done any crazy modifications, I feel that the manufactures should provide a means to get these fixes put in place.
JD, that's exactly what the tech did when he came to our site to prepare for transport. He used a glue I'd never heard of before when he installed the lag screws.
Hi Jared. Thank you for this video. I also have a 2021 28bh and was wondering if you would be able to share the spacing of the extra holes and the exact size of the lags you put in? my lag on the living side, furthest back did back off before - locktite seemed to fix it, but I would prefer to add the extra lags as you have done. If you have the spacing, I might be able to do it without tearing off the carpet. Thank you very much in advance.
I've asked other yt people covering frame flex but I didn't get a response. I did however get a few rude comments directed to me from commenters on that RUclipsrs channel. . I'd appreciate your take on what I've observed and have questions on. I've seen at RV parks 3rd axel 5th wheels backing into a space dragging or pushing the 3rd axel tire that is semi stationary in a 45-90 degree turn. My question is. When larger Fifth wheels back in those 45-,90 degree angles, does the truck pushing at the pin box to 3rd axel semi stationary tire twist the frame and structure from 3rd axel to pin box? Another question, Some 5th wheel people pull into parks stay connected to their trucks, they drop levelers which looks like it lifts the truck, they extend slides etc. Is this a good or bad decision? Thanks for sharing
I took the factory tour of Cedar Creek while our trailer was on the floor and was really impressed with some things and so disappointed with others. They all need to do a better job; the absolute bare minimum just isn't good enough.
Hi Jared, what’s the distance between the holes for the lag bolts. I’m having a hard time locating the other holes. Please refresh my memory why you place a plat in the storage area.
I have a GD 337 5th wheel. There were “0” lags in the 5 hole plate which is concealed under the dresser and a small carpeted enclosure between the dresser and closet wall. To secure the lag, I have to remove the 1.5” WD drain pipe and possible the H/C pex water lines as they obstruct a straight shot through all 5 of the 3/8” predrilled holes. Is a 3.5” lag the recommended length?
At the 6:05 mark you are showing the wood filled framing member. I can’t figure out where that is in relation to the sidewall, the black steel or the OSB that you stripped the carpet from. That brief video section seems to be below in the propane bay? If so, are you just showing that as an example of what is behind the wall in the bedroom?
Just a quick update of how to make this even better is some have suggested bolting through to the outside of the wall. As you could imagine this would be much stronger and full-proof than the lags but obviously has complications like hardware penetrating the exterior fiberglass. I love the idea of trying to get a bolt inside the wall or something like a Rivnut but there are difficulties to make that happen. The lowest hanging fruit is to use an Epoxy adhesive injected into the wall that the lag is then held in place by. I am going to try the Epoxy and see how that does to see if the easiest solution will work. Some people were asking about the spacing of our holes, which appeared a random to me, but here is what they are from rear to front since I had the back 2 for reference.
8 9/16", 10 3/8", 9 1/2", 9 1/4". Sorry metric would have been nice I know.
ruclips.net/video/LSJpKWELlBg/видео.html
We have a new 24 Reflection 5th wheel 27BH. I checked today & found only 2 lag bolts as you did. They are tight for the moment, do you think I should add more or wait until th warrant is up?
@@jopo9359 Now. An ounce of prevention, is worth a pound of cure.
I would put the lag bolts in wet with an adhesive that would bond to the wood, epoxy would work, sort of like LocTite. The problem with lag bolts and wood is verry different rates of expansion and contraction if you are driving through changing temperatures. The other problem is moisture, this is where a bonding medium may help to maintain a better connection.
@@dbraymore Wood Glue would be just fine.
Expoxy will not soak into the wood enough.
Gorilla glue would be best, but it is messy.
Are you happy with the change adding more lag screws? Have you pulled the filon? I have a 2023 311BHS and it only has 2 lags. Considering adding more.
Did you drill all the way into the aluminum/wood and then install the lags?
I’m no structural engineer but I have a hard time believing 2 lag bolts in a 5 hole frame would pass a structure audit. Excellent video Jared!
I couldn't agree more. Lag bolts holding metal together is ridiculous.
Especially when using a 1x2 as the anchor 😂😂
@@Rcoon3Right, this is unbelievable. I was watching some manufacturing videos of Arctic fox campers, those rails are loaded with 2x4’s.
Seems there should be a recall. Sounds like from more than one manufacturer.
@@dlsimes it’s funny because I keep hearing about other manufacturers, but for some reason the same models with grand design keep popping up. Never anything else. Not saying it’s not happening, I’m just not seeing it in my feed.
I have a2021 Reflection 31MB and dealt with this about 6 months ago. I added 2 more lags on each side of the bedroom - total of 4. Due to excessive pin box movement independent of the upper deck, off came the front filon. I only had access to 2 lags per side due to upper deck flooring. All 4 were undersized and loose. Upsized to 1/2” and then spot welded the head to the frame to prevent loosening. Ugly part…the frame strap supporting wall only had 3 screws, sloppily installed at an angle, and counter sink screws were used on flat surface. All showed signs of pulling out. Replaced all frame strap screws with 6 ledger lags per side. Buttoned up and it’s a different trailer when underway. Solid feel and flex is what you would expect when in tow. Minimal,inadequate, and incorrect fastening of upper deck to frame. Poor construction by Grand Design in my case.
It is totally asinine to buy a brand new fifth wheel and then expect the owners to take the carpeting out and check the bolts. I understand maintenance starts as soon as you take possession but this is ridiculous. When calling GD, instead of telling you to add lag bolts, they should have apologized and fixed it right away for free. It appears their solution to problems is to tell you anything to get you off the phone completely. In my RV market search, GD is off my list.
What other brands are you considering?
I agree I think on the frame issues the manufacturers should say hey bring it in and will repair it. Even if they charge a minimal cost of just the repair work for those that are five years or older. As long as you did, not alter the RV beyond the specifications.
Boeing buyers also need to remove trim on new airplanes and check if the bolts have been installed properly. 😮
GD has become another pig with lipstick, just like the rest of the manufacturers. VanLeigh was a quality unit until they were closed down. Brinkley is doing the best job producing a quality RV.
@@enarandyr9122 since Brinkley is run by GD people, I doubt that very much.
Well stated opinions in this video!
Just my opinion. Lag bolts are made to attach something to wood that is continuous along the threads. Putting a lag bolt into aluminum tube and a tiny piece of wood that will absolutely split, is a misapplication of a fastener.
I’ve had a fair amount of experience with this issue on my 2019 320 VanLeigh 5er (installed sleeve anchors myself 3yrs ago, had manufacture add wood into the channels, and last summer Tiffin pulled cap and added internal aluminum structure to the walls as well as additional bolts etc between frame and wall). I’ve also watched many, many frame flex videos over the last few weeks just for curiosity and entertainment. Your video was BY FAR THE BEST ONE OUT THERE about understanding the real problem, being objective, and recommending some real solutions.
Great job!!
Instead of having wood inside those narrow channels, and using lag bolts, they should have captured nuts in those channels so the bolts can be directly threaded into the channel.
That would be much more secure.
Exactly what I was thinking.
OSB strand board and lag bolts have NO business in any RV. After seeing this for the past few years at RV shows I bought an older used unit that is wood-free. Making excuses for poor quality frame welds because the manufacturer is too busy making quota won’t make the manufacturer change their ways. It’s about profit and nothing else.
The best answer.
Jared, I have been a NRVIA Certified Inspector going on 5 years now. I been following your channel for several years. This problem is a lot bigger than both Lippert or GD are letting on. IMHO the problem is two fold questionable welds along with under engineering the connection between the frame and house. I'm not an engineer however 3 of my kids are..Lol
Relying on two undersized lag bolts to hold one of the most stressed areas together is negligence imo. The penny pinchers at the RV factories are going to cost the companies a lot more money in the long run with these very short sighted cost saving efforts.
Owners of these larger toy haulers and 5th wheels should be very concerned about resale values. I've already had numerous customers that have asked me to inspect toy haulers to see if they have frame issues. Then I have to break the bad news to them that it's not possible to tell if there are broken welds or missing components without tearing things apart and we just don't do that as part of an RV inspection. As part of my consulting business I have advised potential buyers what to look for and if there are any concerns to walk away and they have ! It's already affecting potential purchases and I believe that will continue to grow as buyers gain knowledge of the issue not just with GD but all manufacturers of these larger units.
Kudos to Brinkley for being forthcoming about the issue and at least attempting to prevent the problem with a better connection.
I own a GD trailer built pre- COVID. I wouldn't even consider a GD product if I decide to upgrade to a larger unit. Not a chance....
Asking aluminium box fitted with undersized timber to be a major structural part of construction is surely the problem.
The oversized holes and small bolts combine in movement,and that timber inside the aluminium is going to fail .
The under engineering with these RV structures is part of the issues,but they try to say that everything is engineered designs,Rubbish it's cheap engineering.
Still waiting to see someone Annalise the steel used in the frames ,prove that it is American Steel and what it's made up of
The fact a lag bolt is used instead of a threaded (bolt and nut) fastener is a major issue and should be the focus. As an mech engineer with 18+ years of machine/structure design I would never spec a lag bolt into composite aluminum/wood, even if its in shear, especially on a mobile unit that is under constant vibration/stress/strain when in motion. The engineers that approved this should be ashamed. Period.
I agree with you, a nut and bolt would be far superior. I don't own a 5th wheel, but as I watched this, I started wondering how I would fix this. I wonder if that wood, in the aluminum tube could be removed. If so could a length of angle or C channel aluminum be slid if there? If that could be done, then once the additional piece was added, the bolt holes from the frame could be marked. Then remove the additional angle ( C channel ) from the tube, drill holes and fasten some nuts in place. Slide it back in and use some bolts through the frame with some locktite to bolt into the the nuts and lock everything together. Anyways, hopefully sombody comes up with a better solution than just lag bolts in a thin piece of wood.
Just not any nut and bolt should be used. What should be used, is a grade 8 nut and bolt. These are have a higher tensile strength.
Also don't forget about the strength of the steel itself. There is good quality steel and cheap steel. They may have the same gauge, but the difference in the make up of the steel is totally different.
Jared, with all the people talking about this, you were the first person to say that everyone has some responsibility for these problems. I was taught you have to take care of your stuff if you want to keep it nice. I also agree with others here that if there were five holes, there should have been five bolts. I would rather see a flat bolt head on the outside wall than I know it goes the whole way thru. Lag bolts seem like the wrong fasteners for this application.
Again, great balanced take, keep up the good work. Safe travels and happy camping.
Actually Josh from Josh the RV Nerd at Bish's RV RUclips Channel said that everyone bears some blame, including the dealerships. He had a great video like this one that also helped explain this whole situation.
I agree on the lag bolt issue, not the right fastener hardware for that application
Great video! I discovered a crack in my side wall last October and quickly learned that I had the dreaded frame flex issue. My rig is a 35' 2020 Keystone Alpine. The shop found, like yours, that many of the lag bolt holes were empty, and also most of the dead wood inside the square tube was missing. But the biggest problem with mine was that the philon siding was not glued / bonded to the aluminum structure except around the edges. I am told that the primary strength in the side walls comes from the bond between the fiberglass and the aluminum. In my case there were no broken welds. Just too much flexing which caused the side wall to eventually fail. Thanks again for this discussion, as I think it explains how important it is to actually build the rig to the engineers specs and stop cutting corners.
I follow you and Big Truck Big RV because of your balanced and reasonable approach to RV issues. Thanks.
Still not satisfied why GD left 3 lag bolt holes w/o lag bolts installed. Great video!
Exactly…the video just showed what terrible engineering looks like.
Tired of people making excused for this company.
So that may have been on purpose (but possibly not) as now with 5 bolts the wall may be too rigid when going down the road and break something else. The 5 holes could be for different models are even manufacturers that require different placement. I don't know this for sure, but many years ago I worked in manufacturing for a company making fighter jets. There were parts that had holes that appeared to be never used. But, the part may have been used else where on the plane where the hole was used. Or, a hole was cut for future modifications and cheaper to do it that way. Again, could be many reasons for holes not used. Again, don't know in this case but from an engineering / manufacturing standpoint there are many possiblities.
@@fuzzywigglebutt Unlikely. I can think no circumstance you’d want a loose wall on a major structure. Especially when you are talking about cheap lag bolts into minimum wood/aluminum structure. In this case you want ZERO movement.
@@fuzzywigglebutt IRONICALLY, this is exactly what Grand Design told me when I asked them about Jarreds video. they told me that those wholes were for different models, and by adding more bolts I would be transferring stress elsewhere on the rig; the holes were not used to allow a certain amount of flex needed to avoid stress elsewhere. I dont know who to believe. It shouldn't be like this. it should be that I have to become an engineer to make sure my rv is built safe.
Jared, you have done a fantastic job explaining this problem. I do not presently own a towable but own a class A and have owned 8 RV’s over 40 years.
I’m a Retired heavy construction professional with an engineering degree. You could not have explained this any better or clearer. It’s not all the manufacturers fault, but they have their share of responsibility to make these better. Two bolts may have worked on paper but obviously didn’t meet actual use and road conditions.
I get why people are upset and it is harder to own an RV if you’re not able to do some work on them, maintain them, weight them and understand them. It’s sold to them as a carefree lifestyle. None of my 8 rigs were without issues.
You have created a video everyone, regardless what type RV they are considering, should view.
Thank you
I am a retired tool and die maker and I have so much comment to add to this video, but I don't have the time. The point I'm going to TOUCH on is, thread engagement! All threads have a helix angle! In this discussion, the mating structure of the rv is thin structural tube, 90 deg's. Mathematically, this works as a single point of contact, helix on the thread vs rectangular tube. Lag bolts are generally(ish) 8-10 threads per inch. The wall thickness of the tubing is typically not more than 1/8", which leaves a material engagement thickness of, 1 thread engagement! There is no way this is a structurally positive thread engagement! Fastener failure is pretty much guaranteed! It won't matter if the forces are "in shear" or "pull out", sooner or later, that fastener is going to fail!
Imagine having to go through this with your safety related problems with your vehicle. The RV industry has convinced us that their products are of questionable build quality and the related problems are to be expected. They’ve also gradually exposed us to the concept of “you probably caused it” or “not our problem that’s the supplier’s problem”. From 5 decades of RV ownership I can honestly say that they’re almost all poorly built and as long as we keep buying them they have no motivation to build them better.
I'm a welder, I went from a job doing military items inspected by a in plant government inspector (that was quality before quantity) to a job that was mass production (quantity over quality) and the unwritten rule was only fix what the inspector catches! That's how the company increases it's profits. So sad.
Not all welders worked by that unwritten rule!
As an auto Tech [Retired] I watched manufacturers ''skimp'' on fastners in the past...and most of the time it came back to bite us in the keester! Now, as an RV owner, I see this all the time! After problems with our first rig, I now go front to back looking for these issues and others. Iwould have done the exact same thing you did with the lag's...sure would be great if they could take the time to weld nut bungs into the frame or frame plates, like you said, lags into wood in such a critical area is questionable! great job Jared!
Thanks! The skimping is sad to see.
I think the manufacturers, especially Lippert, could probably also invest in technology to help make sure the welders are able to consistently get good, fast welds. It might be overkill to start deploying robot welders like cars use, especially since they make so many versions of the frames, but that doesn't mean that new welders with features that help make sure the person doing the welding can focus on the welding itself while the machine handles the adjustments or using different types of welding could help ensure flawless welds every time. If nothing else, it would take some pressure off the welders and allow them to really focus and not feel a time crunch.
From friends I know who work in Elkhart at some of the manufacturers, they use every trick in the book to put the, mainly contractors, doing the actual assembly under a time crunch to ensure they're always trying to go as fast as possible. While that may roll more units off the line, experience has shown, across any industry, that constantly trying to operate at the absolute maximum pace will always lead to compromises somewhere. I've been told that part of why there's so much sawdust coming out of new RVs is because they no longer budget time for the contractors to clean up, if they spend time doing that they're getting fewer units done and getting paid less. That anecdote alone tells you a lot.
I’m shocked to see a Reflection missing so many lag bolts. We have been dealing with this problem and our newly installed lag bolts are backing out AFTER having GD repair our frame breaks. We are having GD look at it once again to see where the repair will go next.
I have a Grand Design and have loose lag bolts that I questioned about in the beginning. No big deal I was told by the dealer. I will definitely check them again and add more if I can.
👍🏼
I 100% suggest doing what you did in the bedroom especially if you have a grand design. I have the exact camper you have but it is a 2018. I just removed the carpet and wood and found that I had five empty holes on both sides, this is absolutely ridiculous. Way to go grand design!
Thanks for the video, and showing your repair! I would think that having 5 holes and only 2 bolts is because 2 bolts is enough to get past a 1 year warranty. For most users, one year is only 2 to 4 trips, and not enough time/use to have the bolts work loose to where the owner has a warranty claim. It would be interesting to see the engineer drawings to determine if they call for 2 or 5 lags to see if production is following the engineered plans. You might add some locktite to the lags to create a chemical bond to prevent them loosening.
Love the idea of adding a chemical bond as well.
@AllAboutRVs if the wood could be removed from the square tubing, you could install 1/2" T-nuts into the back of the wood strip and use bolts with lock tight instead of lag screws.
As a full time RVer touring the US, we see a lot. The number of 40ft+ toy haulers that seem to be loaded to the max is normal. While we were in St George UT., I saw a couple toy haulers loaded with equipment STACKED in the back. The overhang past the rear axle on these units is huge. The example I refer to above, the driver had to set additional jacks under the rear frame before he opened the ramp. If this is required, I would assume the mfg would have provided jacks at those points. And who knows how that trailer handled going down the road at highway speed with so much weight on the backend. Ownership responsibility is absolutely required. At the same time, mfg - as you clearly showed in this video (Grand Design!) - should build these just a bit better. Like using 5 one half inch lags rather than 2 three-eights lags. After all, they drilled holes for 5. Spend the extra $6 per side and do it right. And BTBRV video was good, but like you showed on your trailer, they can talk all they want, but the quality just isn't there. I guess we need government regulation here since we're talking about serious investments in RVs, and dealers/mfg wash their hands as soon as you're off the lot. And if you finance, you agree to sign away any real rights in arbitration. Look at your contract. Another great video.
Jared, will post the answer to many who question why only 2 lag screws instead of 5?. The missing 3 lag screws on each side seems to be a gross oversight which more than likely would lead to excessive flexing and eventually frame failure.
I too am questioning the use of lag screws into alum box tubing stuffed with wood 2x2's. It seems when the larger trailers with drop frames and massive storage became the "perfect storm" to create the failing frames. I too want to see a better attachment method to build a stronger combined structure that will handle the heavier weights and loading conditions experienced in the larger 5th wheels.
All in all an excellent video!
This was the most fair and balanced response that I’ve seen on RUclips to this problem.
Grand Designs response to the flex issue was pathetic and clearly written by attorneys…basically we will fix the problem “if” it’s our fault but we’re really going to blame you the owner for misuse. 🙄
@@Rcoon3 I agree that Lippert and Grand Design are mostly at fault. That being said, I’ve seen quite a few owners overload their toy haulers and Solitude’s and claim they know how to load them in spite of the unit’s capacity. My experience working at a campground is that everyone thinks they are experts at loading and pulling RV’s.
Great video and great information. I totally agree on all fronts with you Jared. When I worked at a lumber yard and talked to contractors, they all said the exact same thing you said in regards to making changes off the engineers approved plans and it really got me w]seeing the loose lag bolts. My mind said, 5 holes needs 5 bolts, maybe some LVL material to screw them into, then a flat washer and a lock washer between the lag bolt head and the OSB, the flat washer to give the lock washer a solid surface to flatten out and compress as designed to do and the lock washer to stop the g]bolt from backing out. Another common fastener option would be a GRK style screw, an engineered lag bolt replacement option that is smaller in diameter. I have sense moved into the welding trade and I can tell you that any good weld takes time to do properly and needs to not be rushed. In my simple mind it boils down to: follow what the engineer called out, 5 holes means 5 bolts are used and are of proper size and attachment instructions not matter what. In all that, you did a great job and I truly enjoy the great videos you put out. Loads of great i formation that is explained very well. 👍🏻
This is a great explanation of the frame flex issue addressing both sides of the story.
My experience with lag bolts in areas of heat and cold cycles, is they will loosen over time!!! Maybe glue them in. Good fix, but keep an eye on them.
Good point! Also, the movement and vibration of going down the road will cause them to loosen over time. I don't know how how it could work in the manufacturing process but bolts, washers, and lock nuts would be more appropriate for a structure subjected to vibration than lag bolts.
GD needs to comment on the 2 lag bolts and 3 holes without lag bolts.
I was interested so I went to check ours in that area. I have always seen the two lag bolts were there, never checked them. Mine were loose, loose enough I can back them out by my fingers, with no washers and why go thru the carpet with them? I took them out, pulled the carpet, pulled the wood box they build around that frame piece and low and behold......I too have 5 holes on each! What the heck GD! I placed 3 more lags per side, with washers and for good measure I coated each lag with gorilla glue to help them not back out. Now for the intriguing part. Our bedroom floor at the top of the stairs always had a creaking sound when walking on it, the sidewalls in that area always sounded kinda loose and hollow, just figured since the trailer is a 150 series it was thinner and lighter and when placing the trailer on the truck there was always a creaking sound on both walls under each window. I assumed this was normal cause of all that weight coming down one a single attachment point when on the truck. Well, the bedroom floor doesn't creak when walking on it, the walls feel solid and zero creaking sound when hitching up. Unbelievable! Maybe all of that was supposed to move a little? Maybe we are not supposed to have all 5 lags attached to the wall, time will tell but now I feel better at least. I doubt I would have ever had the issue some owners are having with frame issues, we do not have any slides in the bedroom and we are only 32.4 ft. We own a 2020 GD 295RL. 150 series. Actually, fingers crossed never had a major problem just the usual trim pieces coming off. 4 years and 16k miles. Thanks for the insight
Great job with a very hot topic, looks like we all need to do a better job. One of the ways we can work on this is buy the quality units and share our experience. If you quit buying poor quality units things will change. Thanks!
Very true. We need to highlight the good ones and the ones loosing sales will have to change.
I own a 33ft Jayco Eagle Series 5th wheel, no issues with flex. Might be one reason Jayco makes their own frames.
We are picking up our GD27bh today. We have been RVing for 14 years in the same TT we bought new. They could just through bolt the sidewall to the frame and have a nice extruded aluminum profile channel with a cap to cover the heads on the outside. If it looked nice I don’t think anyone would question it if meant the attachment was more secure than just lags holding the sidewall to the frame.
We bought the same 1 in November, fixing to take out next week for the 1st time. Look that camper over good. Found a air duct undone in the basement so far. Hopefully nothing more. It's our 1st camper.
As always, I appreciate your real world explanation of the issues you have encountered and your take on how to build a better mouse trap.
My GD Solitude S2930 RL (34’ long) has a broken front structure - missing 2 lag screws in bedroom, screws were only 3/8” instead of 1/2”. Service center found an additional 6+ bolts under front TPO pinbox covering and broken flat steel wall sills on both sides.
Waiting on next step - Service stated it needs to go back to factory - GD said they will cover and make repairs.
Jarod, thank you so much for this video. There are too many people talking about things they do not understand and ultimately hurting the outdoor hospitality industry as a whole. No person or company is perfect and most people only "Know" a part of the truth. A 1/2 lie is more dangerous than a full lie. I love what you have done and hope it goes viral! (FYI-Love JD too!)
It's to the point that people need to check the frame out regularly just like checking tires and springs. It pays to keep the tow vehicle in mind too. I'd make sure the suspension is working well. If the tow vehicle has hard springs or air bags that are pumped up to the max it could add extra jarring that the manufacturer's engineer never accounted for.
Great video to make people aware. I've also been told that frame flex to failure can happen on travel trailers at the A-frame welds.
I have this exact 5th wheel. I'm not happy that I have to do this kind of maintenance on our 4 year old trailer.
You, JD, Josh & everyone else doing videos on this issue are ALL feeding us BS hoping that we are as stupid as you think we are. The REAL ISSUE is that Lippert and ALL RV manufacturers with these issues, are not willing to accept any responsibility for building a piece of crap. Relying on a few lag bolts into 1'"of wood to support 14,000 lbs of trailer is ridiculous. The whole concept of the side wall being such a big part of the structural integrity is backwards thinking. The side walls should only be additional support. AS for the welds, if they were any good, they would not break, the surrounding metal would fail first. Jared, you're right All owners should be inspecting their units on a regular schedule . They should be looking at tires, roof condition, caulking, visually checking suspension components, but to expect owners to inspect for welds and loose mounting bolts is crazy. At most they should not ignore any body cracks. But it should never be expected that they take any responsibility for the failing frame. Would you take any responsibility if your truck frame started to fail, "HELL NO" you wouldn't. You'd be your truck dealers worst nightmare. So why is an RV any different. Wake up people!!
I agree with you completely.
I have stopped watching and supporting these channels that are continuously taking up for the manufacturers.
We need to support those channels who support and stand up for the consumer.
It is very obvious in this video that the RV is not adequately assembled to not fail.
They are banking on the RV just making it to the minimum years of the warranty or being sold to a second owner so they are no longer liable.
They are liable in every definition.
Car manufacturers would have already been forced to recall.
Something has to be done.
Unfortunately the two of you are incorrect on this issue. RV repair is all I do and have done for 40 years. The “pin box” weight (how much wt exerted downward at the king pin) is never mentioned . This is why the mfg’s will grease the squeaky wheel ONLY when they know with certainty there is a defect.
It doesn't even seem to be the actual frame (meaning the steel lippert frame underneath the RV) that's flexing. It's the superstructure being improperly attached to the frame and not rigid enough itself that's flexing and breaking.
Josh and JD are big part of the problem too. Josh tried to tell me that the giant bubbles all the roof of the trailer he was reviewing on his channel were from "out gassing" how many people has he told that to. JD I don't know where to start
It seems to me like these are destined for failure using lag bolts to hold these together. I have never seen a short lag hold long term on things like a house deck.
Thru bolting these like DRV and Riverstone do is a much better way.
I totally agree that lag bolts and screws into wood for a structure that experiences an earthquake going down the road is sufficient. This needs better engineering like a strip of metal with welded on nuts instead of wood for example.
Jared - nice work showing how the frame AND the body need to work together to provide structural support. It seems like a VERY poor design to use lag bolts in material that has very little bite, especially in something that encounters as much vibration as an RV does. Mechanically fastened bolts would seem like a much better solution. I hope you do a follow up to see if 2 lag bolts is the proper installation method from the manufacturer, or if some worked out, or if Lippert recommends all five being used. Something still doesn’t seem right & there is more to uncover.
I’m sure there will be a follow up!
Great job as always. If you guys stay on the manufacturers by pointing out what they are failing to come to grips with, people will understand that they can do better. Passing the buck isn’t a fix. Engineering a solution is what is needed. Thanks and let’s get the right fittings for the pex/flex tubing problem on that list as well.
Great point! I agree. We need all Pex and then standard supply lines, not tubing.
Nothing wrong with the Flex tubing....the problem is attaching it to Pex fittings. There is a correct way to do that but it would cost the manufacturers a little more in fittings and labor.
See Rigor RV Repair RUclips channel for more information on this plumbing problem in the RV industry. He does a great job explaining the problem and the solutions.
Thanks for showing how the lag bolts are used to attach the sides to the upper deck. I've been seeing lots of videos on this and wondered how this was assembled.
2 is adequate? Maybe under ideal conditions. A few more lag bolts won't break the company.
Totally agree with the way those bolts are connected. Putting 2 lags into a thin piece of wood for something that sits in the weather and then drives down the road isnt idea.
Thanks for this info. I saw a gap next to my stairs into the bedroom. Did place two additional lag screws, but didn't get the gap to completely close. This was several years ago. I am going back and beef it up as you suggested. Thanks again.
All About RV's You should drill through to outside & use 5/16 th. Coach Bolts with Nylock Nuts & Repair washers , Paint the slight dome heads same colour as outer panels , then you'll be able to wrench them up tight.
I’ve thought about that. Just not sure I want the bolts on the outside.
This is a fantastic video. Would you be able to provide the measurements for the bolt lengths and the distance you found between them?
I’m wondering the same thing what length lag bolts did you use
Thank you for this video. I have a Reflection 150 and while I don't have any issues and my "Qty 2" bolts are tight. I want to get ahead of any potential issues. Especially since my bolts are not uniformly distributed along the frame. They ran two bolts in and they are no more than 6-8" apart.
These things are assembled really quickly...too quickly.
Riverstone,DRV and Luxe use Lippert frames. They don’t have any frame failure! Main reason is all steel box frames,3.5”walls and superior wall attached to the frame. JD love’s Riverstone’s and has said he has never heard of a frame failure in a Riverstone. We are on the Riverstone forum’s and no one has ever said anything about that issue.
I haven’t heard of riverstone with the issue but Drv and luxe have had cases.
@@ericrowley18 I know DRV did years ago but they fixed them very quickly.
Thanks so much for these GREAT videos! Appreciate your balanced approach on this issue. I have a GD Reflection 150 273MK, similar floorplan without the bunkhouse. Checked the lag bolts, sure enough, only 2! need to add at least 2 more on each side.
Jared, Awesome video and thank you for a real description of the lag bolts!!!
Owner of a 2021
GD 344GK.
My rv isn't really showing any signs either but I will be checking them out.
I will say we are buying an expensive unit that should be road worthy for multiple years!! The manufacturer has to do a better job at building them so the end product meets up with the lifestyle they say these units are designed for!!
I have seen some pictures of frame damage. The steel looks light duty compared to the loads it has to bear. Two places that seem under engineered are at the fifth wheel frame to the lower frame and at the point over the axels. I also wondered why weight limits are not noted on each compartment that is used for storage. It would be easy to keep with in weight limits of the trailer but over load at some point of the frame capacity. The roads compound the stress to the frame and wonder if the manufacture has tested the frame after design before building the cabin on top. The frames in commercial semi use are built for heavier loads and seem to hold up fine. Some of the repairs I've seen transfers the stress to other points of the frame. Kind of like kicking the can down the road. If the frame is too weak to take the stress, then it's just to weak.
First thing I did when I bought my truck and trailer was to install an air ride hitch. I have a medium duty truck and I knew the suspension on the truck was very stiff. I wanted to take the stress out of the front of the trailer as much as possible.
A lot of motorhomes have Freightliner chases - a manufacturer of commercial freight carrying trucks owned currently by Daimler of Mercedes Benz fame. I've never heard of any problems with their chases. My 21 year old Tiffin has a Freightliner chases.
Another very informative and thorough video Jared! I too was impressed with JDs BigTruckBigRV videos on this subject. Very well done.
Great video Jared, I am considering pulling out the Lag screws and replacing with stainless steel bolts, washers and nuts. Just need to find the right piece of trim to use on the outside that I can make weather-tight. Keep the great videos coming.
A gusset here and there would be nice to see on the frame. Crazy they just put 2 bolts where there is provision for 5, saving them pennies.
Hi
The main frame should NEVER EVER be designed to rely on the skin or anything else of the trailer for strength. You will NEVER EVER find a lowboy or highboy hauling heavy equipment that depends on the wooden planking for part of the strength of the trailer.
Build a frame strong enough in the first place.
Thanks for listening!
I totally agree. Paraphrasing Matthew 7:24-27, only a fools builds his house on sand. As far as I'm concerned, Lippert sucks. I will not buy a trailer with a frame made by Lippert. A few of the smaller manufacturers make their own frames. I would like to see Jared check with them to see if frame flex is an issue.
Very well presented. This issue has put our upgrade in RV on hold. I believe that the frame needs revisit in design. Yes some issues can be caused in use and care.
Thanks for sharing! I think others are in the same boat, waiting to see what improves or explore the idea of other brands that are handling it well like Brinkley.
As always, outstanding video my friend!
Thanks JD!
Alternate to lags? Through bolts with large washers. You’ll see them outside, but it’ll be secured well. However, lag bolts/screws work well when installed correctly. That small wood fill inside the steel frame didn’t appear big enough for that 1/2” lag.
Great job…about to self fix this myself.
I saw a few videos where they are saying the engineers admit that the frames are not built to hold the weight of the RV as built even before owners putting their stuff in
Even though our Grand Design 260RD, at just under 30', is probably not a leading candidate for "frame flex" I decided to see if i could add bolts because the two existing bolts do back out from time to time. I did remove the carpet on the door side to exactly identify the bolt spacing. For reference I numbered the bolts from 1 to 5 from the back to the front of the RV. Spacing is: 1 to 2: 7-5/16"; 2 to 3: 11-1/2"; 3 to 4: 9-1/4"; and 4 to 5: 9-1/4". Having that information it was fairly simple to find the bolts on the other side without removing the carpet. Adding the #3 bolt on each side went well. However I was not able to add bolts to 4 & 5. I'm guessing there was some kind of metal structure on the other side of the frame - yes, I'm sure the bolt was going through both sides of the frame - because it would not thread. I tapped on a long nail in the hole and the tip came back blunted. It did not sound like a good idea to drill or force anything without being able to see what I was going into so I have decided to be happy with adding one bolt.
Great job! Please share on Grand Design RV Owners - What’s In The Shop with Dustin
Thinking thru bolts with nuts and washers would work way better than a lag bolt. Just need a way to camouflage the bolt heads on outside of rig.
Yes that is the trick but I think possible. One thought I have is a welded on L bracket to the inside of the wall that bolts to the chassis. I think it could work the problem is how to incorporate it efficiently into production.
Here is an idea for a video on what flex looks like. Mount a laser alignment tool and a video camera on the same mount and record what happens as you drive around and what happens when each of the wheels on the trailer and the truck are run over a bump or stood on a short lift, like a 2x4 or 4x4.
Being in the collision industry, there are a few manufacturers using rivet bonding on their vehicles using impact resistant structural adhesives. GM is one of those manufacturers, the rivet bonding process brings better than 10K of shear strength.
Good to know, thanks. I was going look up the shear strength on the rivets I used.
There's definitely better ways to be securing the house structure to the main frame. Car industry is regulated by safety laws, RV industry is not. Manufacturing companies are putting the cheapest way they can to get past warranty, which the RV industry warranty are complete garbage anyway. Until this industry is safety regulated there's going to be issues in some brands. I do however agree rivets would be 10× stronger and not add weight really just time in the manufacturing process!
To the best of knowledge the automotive rivets that currently have the highest strength are the GM SR1, SR2, and SR3 rivets, they are the closest you can get to a solid rivet. Our normal rivet guns cannot fully pull them, I had to buy a rivet gun that would pull 4K psi. I have not seen anything like them in the automotive industry.
3M makes the impact resistant structural adhesive that GM, Honda, KIA and several other OEMs have used using, part number is 07333, strongest stuff I’ve seen in my 27 years.
I'm so glade I'm in a well built older motorhome. Nice job as always.
After all that, I sure hope you have an energy absorbing hitch to cushion the impact between the pin box and truck.
Thanks Jared. Did you ever find out why only two lag bolts and why they didn’t use all five holes?
Best video on this subject yet! Thanks.
Would lock washers under lag bolt head(s) help maintain tension on bolt(s) and prevent them from backing out?
Jared,
Maybe I missed it, but did you do an install video on the plate you added in the propane storage area? I plan to add this plate, and some type of wood glue or locktight to existing lag bolts as I have 1 that likes work its way loose. If these 2 upgrades to seem to make a diffference then I’m going to remove carpet and add the additional lags. Would like to add the plate first. Thanks, and appreciate the videos. (31MB owner)
I agree that if you have 5 holes, there should be 5 lag bolts. To me though, whether is 3/8 or 1/2 inch lags, there is less than an inch or so in the wood. Wood, bouncing down the road, seems to me it would lose a little "bite" over time. They should switch to bolts with red LocTite that go into a type nyloc nut that won't loosen up. The RV is only as strong as its weakest link and this looks like a poor way to attach walls on something that encounters "earthquakes" on every travel day! The RV industry is at a tipping point and the first one to figure it out and massively advertise their benefits and quality will be the big winner.
I watch RV videos, yours being as good as any, and come away thinking, what crap! (The RV's not the videos)
It's not just a 5th wheel problem, The channel KYD did a video on their Air Stream about the same issue.
Jared would you consider going to Brinkley and video their wall and how it connects to frame? If they are different I would sure be interested in buying Brinkley
I would love to go do a tour. From what they said, they attach it in 2 different directions and use an adhesive to the chassis.
I definitely think if you’ve overloaded your RV or you’ve changed some structural piece of it that you are accountable for that. At the same time I think it’s crazy the lack of responsibility or the warranty piece of it, that they just kind of throw up their hands and say oh you’re a year or two old no can do for you. Those frames should be meant to last longer on Wells than that. Great video Jared I agree it is a partnership to maintaining an RV, but at the same time I do think structural things like welds need to be the responsibility of Lippert and the RV company.
, so there was only 2 lag bolts little as they were. Why not drill new holes away from theirs and rebolt it. I would think that the holes that was there would be wallered out. Great video
That was a good vido. You did it to where we can under stand it.
Just curious did you check the drivers side to see if it only had two lag bolts in it, and I’d GD gave you an explanation as to why there were only two?
Sorry, there are 5th wheels, of a certain brand, that are having rear frame failure also, and especially around the pull outs.
One of the things that I noticed from watching the Lippert frame shop videos is that there seems to be a massive disconnect between the care and competency that Lippert said that they placed in their frame welding, and the videos that owners are showing of the Lippert frame welds that appear to have been done by a welder with the skill level of a grade 10 high school shop class.
I've noticed a lot of the manufacturers seem to just, leave out screws and bolts that could and probably should have been there. I can only assume the engineer designed for those holes to be used, hence them being there, so there's no excuse for cheaping out and not using them. My counter/cabinets only had 2 screws joining them, out of 8 predrilled, pre countersunk holes provided. Also had my sliding bedroom door fall down because they didn't quite get the wall lined up with the beam in the roof so the door track was just hanging from 3 screws into the 1/8" plywood ceiling. I've seen a lot of things where, as an engineer, I can tell that the engineer designed things to be a certain way, and they just, did something different that really doesn't make sense. In some cases it doesn't even save them time or money to build that way, so I have no clue why they deviated. Maybe someone just didn't want to be told what to do or how to do it (my dad will 100% do things a different way just so he wasn't obeying someone else, so I can absolutely see someone going "Well I want to do it THIS way" just because.)
Cheaper materials, quicker builds equal more profit! That’s the manufacturing side.
Owners tend to overload the fifth wheels, while down south recently I noticed a lot of very large trailers with reduced weights? Have the frame materials got thinner?
I have an older fifth wheel designed for a 1500hd truck and it still weighs 10,000lbs and it’s 29ft long, I use a 2500hd to pull it.
Question. Do you feel it would be effective adding an epoxy to the holes before screwing the lags in? Similar to mounting anchors in a concrete slab? Im considering this.
That’s what GD is doing in the flex TSB issued
I am thankful people such as you and Jared can identify these things and fix them yourselves. But there are a lot of people who don’t have that skill set, but will have that problem. That is why I feel the manufacturer should take some responsibility again if you have overloaded your RV then it’s on you, but if you were within your weight limit and haven’t done any crazy modifications, I feel that the manufactures should provide a means to get these fixes put in place.
I agree and hope this video puts pressure on the industry to step up so these issues aren’t an issue any more.
Yes I do think that would be a good idea. The nozzle, for the epoxy mixing, could be long enough to get back to the wall too.
JD, that's exactly what the tech did when he came to our site to prepare for transport. He used a glue I'd never heard of before when he installed the lag screws.
Lippert, at one time, was trying to say their frames were robotically welded. This kinda blew that claim outta the water.
Did you do the other side?
Lag Bolts in a small square stock frame? I would not expect that to last. Thanks
Field repair on the worst broken frame and price of repair would be awesome
Hi Jared. Thank you for this video. I also have a 2021 28bh and was wondering if you would be able to share the spacing of the extra holes and the exact size of the lags you put in? my lag on the living side, furthest back did back off before - locktite seemed to fix it, but I would prefer to add the extra lags as you have done. If you have the spacing, I might be able to do it without tearing off the carpet. Thank you very much in advance.
I've asked other yt people covering frame flex but I didn't get a response. I did however get a few rude comments directed to me from commenters on that RUclipsrs channel. . I'd appreciate your take on what I've observed and have questions on. I've seen at RV parks 3rd axel 5th wheels backing into a space dragging or pushing the 3rd axel tire that is semi stationary in a 45-90 degree turn. My question is. When larger Fifth wheels back in those 45-,90 degree angles, does the truck pushing at the pin box to 3rd axel semi stationary tire twist the frame and structure from 3rd axel to pin box? Another question, Some 5th wheel people pull into parks stay connected to their trucks, they drop levelers which looks like it lifts the truck, they extend slides etc. Is this a good or bad decision? Thanks for sharing
I would ditch the lag bolts and move to Rivet bolts. I just don't see any lag bolts holding in that thin wood backing.
I took the factory tour of Cedar Creek while our trailer was on the floor and was really impressed with some things and so disappointed with others. They all need to do a better job; the absolute bare minimum just isn't good enough.
When shopping the tours are a good thing check out.
Hi Jared, what’s the distance between the holes for the lag bolts. I’m having a hard time locating the other holes. Please refresh my memory why you place a plat in the storage area.
I have a GD 337 5th wheel. There were “0” lags in the 5 hole plate which is concealed under the dresser and a small carpeted enclosure between the dresser and closet wall. To secure the lag, I have to remove the 1.5” WD drain pipe and possible the H/C pex water lines as they obstruct a straight shot through all 5 of the 3/8” predrilled holes. Is a 3.5” lag the recommended length?
At the 6:05 mark you are showing the wood filled framing member. I can’t figure out where that is in relation to the sidewall, the black steel or the OSB that you stripped the carpet from. That brief video section seems to be below in the propane bay? If so, are you just showing that as an example of what is behind the wall in the bedroom?