I thought that TechInsights will present a die shot sooner or later, but I did not expect to see one from Samsung that early. The original source was already online at the end of February: meeco.kr/mini/34738567 Since TechInsights doesn't publish full res die shots, it likely won't get so much better than what we currently have, so I went ahead and made the analysis based on this blurry mess. Still enough to get quite far. ^^
@@locuza I'm interested in computing technology in general. But yeah recently I developed an interest for AMD and ARM hardware. Microarchitectures to be more precise.
@@locuza I would love to see a video of you comaparing apple silicon to x86. I couldn't even find any good die shots for apple chips either. And I'm pretty sure there aren't enough information available about their microarchitectures either. Still I would love to see what you can find.
@@locuza I literally just spammed your videos to all my friends lol. They are asleep right now. But hopefully they will sub you in the morning. I fucking love your videos 🐸🤚🏻
@@salty4 1.) I actually have quite a bit of data finished for Part 2 of the video, it mostly needs just a script to put it all together. So area numbers for the Samsung SoC vs. some Apple chips and Zen 3 is included, though just the core and cache sizes. 2.) Unfortunately good die shots are really rare, it's personally something I would like to do myself, I'm in the process to buy a camera, but a lot of the good stuff is out of stock, so it might take quite a while. I may get some contracts to do die shot analysis work, but it will likely take a while till I have the necessary funds to be able to buy chips and devices to make all the die shots which are interesting. 3.) There is a ridiculously amazing 350 page long document for the M1 done by Maynard Handley: drive.google.com/file/d/1WrMYCZMnhsGP4o3H33ioAUKL_bjuJSPt/view It goes over a lot of the microarchitecture details. I myself have yet to read a single page of it, but just skimming over it made it clear, that it's packed with a ton of expert knowledge.
Mehrere. :') Aber ja, auch zum Video-Launch war ich bis tief in die Nacht beschäftigt. Danke für die Blumen, es war hoffentlich interessant. Ein Haufen Arbeit steht dahinter und selbst damit habe ich es nur geschafft einen Teil in Videoform zu packen.
The part 2 material was to 80% finished or so, however other projects came in-between, and as of right now I'm retired from content creation. Therefore, no idea if part 2 will ever happen or not.
@@dotjaz Unfortunately I have to bust this hope... At the moment I don't have time to delve into old content and legally this could already be considered a conflict of interest with my current employer. So in general, I'm out of the public realm in this regard.
I feel like it is. Before the AMD deal, Qualcomm had a stranglehold on the mobile GPU market, with Adreno outclassing everything Mali had to offer. But it was always significantly worse than Apple's GPU. So Samsung signed a deal with AMD to compete.
It's definitely much more. Usually companies don't spend millions of dollars to sign an IP licensing deal, engineering effort for IP improvements and integration. There is a huge amount of work behind it, also on the software side. This has to pay off in some way. With the Exynos 2200 it didn't for the end products. I'm very curious about the future, since RDNA3 appears to be a huge jump forward, however Samsung's process handling is lacking. Samsung has to be very careful not to get caught in a downward spiral if they aren't already.
@@locuza Said this in another thread in this video, but I think Xclipse is already competitive enough as it is, but it has a lot of untapped potential because what developer would prioritize optimizing for RDNA2 when it only exists in Samsung flagships in Europe? Samsung was on the right track, they just terribly mishandled the production of the chips.
@@jacekjagosz Interestingly, the "Lite" designation appears to be used for custom chips. The Xbox Series X GPU is called "Navi 21 Lite", there is also "Navi 10 / 12 Lite = PS5?" and "Van Gogh Lite" is found in the Exynos 2200. The "Lite" terms doesn't define a cut-down feature set and also not what kind of IP versions are used. Van Gogh Lite has the Graphics Core v10.4, all other RDNA2 GPUs use 10.3.x, the Xbox Series 10.2.0 and RDNA1 GPUs used 10.1.x. Based on the version number, Van Gogh Lite includes the newest technology and from a simplified perspective, I wouldn't expect to find RDNA1 technology there.
I used Photoshop, but with GIMP you should be able to achieve the same color results, excluding the added border colors. Just playing around with color values and blending modes. GIMP has no layer effects compared to PS, but for that Affinity Photo is a cheap alternative with a one-time purchase license.
The biggest problem with the RDNA 2 implementation (Xclipse) on Exynos 2220 wasnt the raw performance, that was competitive, it was the terrible software support, some games do not run at all, others dont recognize the GPU and cap graphics settings, some have flickers and black screens. And its not going to get much better as Samsung is the only manufacturer using AMD's RDNA2 design. Meanwhile Mali and Adreno have similar performance and widespread adoption and thus support. I give it 2 years before Samsung goes back to Mali. The other issue is Samsung foundry is falling behind; the situation doesnt look bad right now as Qualcomm's S8G1 was still on Samsung foundries this year, but with them rumored to go back to TSMC next year, and then their confirmed move to Intel 20A, Samsung's Exynos going to be at a significant node disadvantage, and im not sure how they can handle that.
Again, Samsung already expected this and (originally) planned to release 3 Exynos chipsets with AMD RDNA2 graphics, one with 6 cores(E2200), one with 4 cores, and one with 2. And in typical Samsung fashion, they werent able to do it lmao We can assume that the 4CU Exynos chip was replaced by now Exynos 1280, so A33 and A53, and lower units were supposed to get the 2 core GPU. With this setup, from budget to flagship, RDNA phones will flood the market, pressing devs to optimize for it. For the Samsung Foundries thing, it should be noted that Samsung Exynos, Samsung Foundries and Samsung Galaxy are three separate entities. Exynos actually competes with Qualcomm when trying to get orders for Samsung flagships. Random fact aside, the reason as to why Samsung has been failing is because the three companies weren't vertically integrated, until now(presumably). Samsung's 3nm process is actually worse than 4nm(3nm's rumored 10-20% compared to 4nm's 25-35). But, since Samsung can't get any customers, Exynos can actually place orders on the entire process. Samsung's H1 2022 was such a letdown, barely being competitive against 8G1. But H2 is when they'll release their next gen Exynos. It's either their redemption arc or another clown fiesta we can watch.
IIRC, the problem is its lack of support for OpenGL. And, even with a lot of time for developers to adopt Vulkan (it exist since 2015), there seems to be that most of Android apps were designed with OpenGL in mind. And Google has not the balls of Apple to deprecate it's support to favor vulkan.
@@MiguelAngel-rw7kn I mean that is a valid issue, but Samsung could've solved this problem themselves by flooding every smartphone price tier with RDNA2. Basically, if that GPU architecture is in a lot of smartphones, app developers might be pressured to actually code with Vulkan in mind now.
@@locuza That's quite interesting. I never would have thought the modem would need something like that. They are very small cores too. Perhaps they are cortex M4 cores or something.
방향성이 잘못된 제품이라 보이는데요, 고성능을 낼 수 있게 만들고 제품의 성능을 낮춰 사용하면 발열 절감, 저전력 등을 얻으리라 생각한 것 같은데 이론은 맞지만 기대 이하의 결과가 나와 실패한 제품이죠 좋은 시도이고 다음 제품을 만들 때는 많이 보완하여 나온다면 좋을것 같네요
First time I have actually seen the exynos 2200 soc .. excellent analysis as always
I thought that TechInsights will present a die shot sooner or later, but I did not expect to see one from Samsung that early.
The original source was already online at the end of February:
meeco.kr/mini/34738567
Since TechInsights doesn't publish full res die shots, it likely won't get so much better than what we currently have, so I went ahead and made the analysis based on this blurry mess.
Still enough to get quite far. ^^
man I love your videos
Glad to hear. :)
Any kind of chips or topics you are especially curious about?
@@locuza I'm interested in computing technology in general. But yeah recently I developed an interest for AMD and ARM hardware. Microarchitectures to be more precise.
@@locuza I would love to see a video of you comaparing apple silicon to x86. I couldn't even find any good die shots for apple chips either. And I'm pretty sure there aren't enough information available about their microarchitectures either. Still I would love to see what you can find.
@@locuza I literally just spammed your videos to all my friends lol. They are asleep right now. But hopefully they will sub you in the morning. I fucking love your videos 🐸🤚🏻
@@salty4 1.) I actually have quite a bit of data finished for Part 2 of the video, it mostly needs just a script to put it all together.
So area numbers for the Samsung SoC vs. some Apple chips and Zen 3 is included, though just the core and cache sizes.
2.) Unfortunately good die shots are really rare, it's personally something I would like to do myself, I'm in the process to buy a camera, but a lot of the good stuff is out of stock, so it might take quite a while.
I may get some contracts to do die shot analysis work, but it will likely take a while till I have the necessary funds to be able to buy chips and devices to make all the die shots which are interesting.
3.) There is a ridiculously amazing 350 page long document for the M1 done by Maynard Handley:
drive.google.com/file/d/1WrMYCZMnhsGP4o3H33ioAUKL_bjuJSPt/view
It goes over a lot of the microarchitecture details.
I myself have yet to read a single page of it, but just skimming over it made it clear, that it's packed with a ton of expert knowledge.
I'll join your patreon soon
Hast du die Nacht durchgearbeitet? Nice Work.👍👍👍
Mehrere. :')
Aber ja, auch zum Video-Launch war ich bis tief in die Nacht beschäftigt.
Danke für die Blumen, es war hoffentlich interessant.
Ein Haufen Arbeit steht dahinter und selbst damit habe ich es nur geschafft einen Teil in Videoform zu packen.
Excellent
Part 2 on YT when?
The part 2 material was to 80% finished or so, however other projects came in-between, and as of right now I'm retired from content creation.
Therefore, no idea if part 2 will ever happen or not.
@@locuza what a shame! I hope you could at least release the area analysis on Tw- I mean X.
@@dotjaz Unfortunately I have to bust this hope...
At the moment I don't have time to delve into old content and legally this could already be considered a conflict of interest with my current employer.
So in general, I'm out of the public realm in this regard.
I wonder if the move to AMD RDNA 2 was more of a marketing stunt than actual necessity
As they called it Vangogh lite, I am wondering it maybe it was based mostly on RDNA 1 for that APU? And some features added on top?
I feel like it is. Before the AMD deal, Qualcomm had a stranglehold on the mobile GPU market, with Adreno outclassing everything Mali had to offer. But it was always significantly worse than Apple's GPU.
So Samsung signed a deal with AMD to compete.
It's definitely much more.
Usually companies don't spend millions of dollars to sign an IP licensing deal, engineering effort for IP improvements and integration.
There is a huge amount of work behind it, also on the software side.
This has to pay off in some way.
With the Exynos 2200 it didn't for the end products.
I'm very curious about the future, since RDNA3 appears to be a huge jump forward, however Samsung's process handling is lacking.
Samsung has to be very careful not to get caught in a downward spiral if they aren't already.
@@locuza Said this in another thread in this video, but I think Xclipse is already competitive enough as it is, but it has a lot of untapped potential because what developer would prioritize optimizing for RDNA2 when it only exists in Samsung flagships in Europe?
Samsung was on the right track, they just terribly mishandled the production of the chips.
@@jacekjagosz Interestingly, the "Lite" designation appears to be used for custom chips.
The Xbox Series X GPU is called "Navi 21 Lite", there is also "Navi 10 / 12 Lite = PS5?" and "Van Gogh Lite" is found in the Exynos 2200.
The "Lite" terms doesn't define a cut-down feature set and also not what kind of IP versions are used.
Van Gogh Lite has the Graphics Core v10.4, all other RDNA2 GPUs use 10.3.x, the Xbox Series 10.2.0 and RDNA1 GPUs used 10.1.x.
Based on the version number, Van Gogh Lite includes the newest technology and from a simplified perspective, I wouldn't expect to find RDNA1 technology there.
What software do you use for annotations and coloring? I would like to start doing my own
I used Photoshop, but with GIMP you should be able to achieve the same color results, excluding the added border colors.
Just playing around with color values and blending modes.
GIMP has no layer effects compared to PS, but for that Affinity Photo is a cheap alternative with a one-time purchase license.
The biggest problem with the RDNA 2 implementation (Xclipse) on Exynos 2220 wasnt the raw performance, that was competitive, it was the terrible software support, some games do not run at all, others dont recognize the GPU and cap graphics settings, some have flickers and black screens. And its not going to get much better as Samsung is the only manufacturer using AMD's RDNA2 design. Meanwhile Mali and Adreno have similar performance and widespread adoption and thus support. I give it 2 years before Samsung goes back to Mali. The other issue is Samsung foundry is falling behind; the situation doesnt look bad right now as Qualcomm's S8G1 was still on Samsung foundries this year, but with them rumored to go back to TSMC next year, and then their confirmed move to Intel 20A, Samsung's Exynos going to be at a significant node disadvantage, and im not sure how they can handle that.
Samsung 3gaa and 3gae are rumored to be pretty good.. however samsungs yields have always been a problem
Samsung will be the first with HVM of GAAFET in the industry. I'm not worried about them failing behind.
Again, Samsung already expected this and (originally) planned to release 3 Exynos chipsets with AMD RDNA2 graphics, one with 6 cores(E2200), one with 4 cores, and one with 2.
And in typical Samsung fashion, they werent able to do it lmao
We can assume that the 4CU Exynos chip was replaced by now Exynos 1280, so A33 and A53, and lower units were supposed to get the 2 core GPU.
With this setup, from budget to flagship, RDNA phones will flood the market, pressing devs to optimize for it.
For the Samsung Foundries thing, it should be noted that Samsung Exynos, Samsung Foundries and Samsung Galaxy are three separate entities. Exynos actually competes with Qualcomm when trying to get orders for Samsung flagships. Random fact aside, the reason as to why Samsung has been failing is because the three companies weren't vertically integrated, until now(presumably). Samsung's 3nm process is actually worse than 4nm(3nm's rumored 10-20% compared to 4nm's 25-35). But, since Samsung can't get any customers, Exynos can actually place orders on the entire process.
Samsung's H1 2022 was such a letdown, barely being competitive against 8G1. But H2 is when they'll release their next gen Exynos. It's either their redemption arc or another clown fiesta we can watch.
IIRC, the problem is its lack of support for OpenGL. And, even with a lot of time for developers to adopt Vulkan (it exist since 2015), there seems to be that most of Android apps were designed with OpenGL in mind.
And Google has not the balls of Apple to deprecate it's support to favor vulkan.
@@MiguelAngel-rw7kn I mean that is a valid issue, but Samsung could've solved this problem themselves by flooding every smartphone price tier with RDNA2.
Basically, if that GPU architecture is in a lot of smartphones, app developers might be pressured to actually code with Vulkan in mind now.
Is there an npu on this die?
There is, also on previous generations.
@@locuza Thanks. Do you have any idea what those 8 core-looking things are right above the GPU and its cache are?
@@BGTech1 Potentially low-power ARM CPU Cores for the Modem Subsystem.
@@locuza That's quite interesting. I never would have thought the modem would need something like that. They are very small cores too. Perhaps they are cortex M4 cores or something.
Nice
방향성이 잘못된 제품이라 보이는데요, 고성능을 낼 수 있게 만들고 제품의 성능을 낮춰 사용하면 발열 절감, 저전력 등을 얻으리라 생각한 것 같은데 이론은 맞지만 기대 이하의 결과가 나와 실패한 제품이죠 좋은 시도이고 다음 제품을 만들 때는 많이 보완하여 나온다면 좋을것 같네요