This video was supported by Salsa Cycles. Learn more about the Salsa Anything Cradle here: www.salsacycles.com/gear/exp_series_anything_cradle_35mm?.com&
I actually switched from 1X to 2X. The only place i would use 1X is on an MTB, to avoid chain drops on very rough terrain. On gravel bikes for bike packing, 2X is better.
Rad vid as always Niel. One thing to note (as you've had limited experience with gravel forks) is that u like the telescopic forks, the Lauf fork isn't as niche in it's application. Telescopic = has seal stiction, so even with light damping it's really like a mini MTB fork (poor tiny bump sensitivity, air spring that is largely progressive, requires a medium sized hit to hit the most supple/digressive part of the air spring). The Lauf fork has no damping and because of it's reliant on flexing of the springs to become more active, it works perfectly for general "gravel" riding. Basicslly it resists low speed small-medium input (e.g. climbing, riding along inputs) and opens up/becomes more active the faster you impact it (like water bars etc). Aka it's optimized for gravel roads not singletrack/relatively lower speed more technical mountain biking.
I have my gravelbike suspension of now for service. I thought to sell it afterwards but today I went out for a 100km ride and I miss it A LOT! More pain in the back and shoulders and less grip
The Lauf is genius!!! Rohloff, Pinion w. belt drive genius!!!! Tubeless genius!!! Hydro disc brakes genius!!! Can't think of any other innovations in the past 20 years that come close.
Tubeless is my favorite here. I currently have six bikes set up tubeless, everything from a fatbike to a crit race bike. It simply works better. Some tire/ wheel combinations can be a pain to set up initially, that's the only downside. There are many, many upsides.
Only downside? LOL I guess you prefer to wear a chem suite when changing tires or repairing flats? (Yes, I realize, tubeless usually is less prone to flats. But I prefer tubes with no mess and still riding for nearly 2 years with the same tubes.)
I've been basically exclusively riding gravel the last 2 years now. I have a hardtail mtb and a gravel bike with suspension (lauf siegla). I did unbound 200 on my hardtail with gravel tires and drop bars(surly corner bars!!), and several thousand training miles. I've got almost 800 miles on the lauf now. It is not the same. for pure gravel, the lauf is more comfy and faster. there's a weight pentalty on the hardtail, especially the fork, and the gearing was a bit low (great for climbing, terrible for long straight sections.) The MTB fork takes the big hits but not the chatter. the lauf fork takes the chatter but not the big hits. for gravel, it's all chatter (or at least 95%) and assuming you pick your lines well, it definitely increases comfort when you spend hours in the saddle. If I'm comparing gravel w/ suspension to gravel w/o suspension, I'm picking the lauf fork every time. also on descents I drop everyone. that thing can really shred downhill.
Been out ridin in the snow and -0°s and I so appreciate the snowy background in your tech reviews. Let's keep riding in ALL weather and leave those four-wheeled planet-wreckers parked. Excellent reviews.
Pretty much agree with everything, but to electronic shifting I’d add the electronic waste aspect. These things don’t last forever, especially the batteries. They’re going to have to go somewhere, many (most?) people will just throw them in the trash, and for what? They’re not reducing carbon output, and taking mining and manufacturing into consideration, they’re adding carbon. For me at the end of the day that’s more cost than improvement in shifting, so the value proposition isn’t there. Yeah, it’s awesome and works awesome and all that. But not so much better that it’s worth the added cost, complexity, and harm to our environment. For that reason, I’ll stick to cables.
Tubeless is great on bikes with 40mm + tyres and less than 40psi. With skinny tyres and higher pressure though I find it doesn't always seal properly so I still use tubes on skinnier tyres.
If you're gonna add a suspension to a gravel bike, just get a hardtail... the weight is about the same and it will be MUCH more versatile and comfy! That's the route I took. Thanks and Merry Christmas to ALL!!!
I wouldn't be surprised if the survey results correlated to if the person was fundamentally a road to gravel or mtn to gravel person. I'm the former and chose a Lauf for the suspension without the fork maintenance. I got to retain the familiar road bike position and near road bike speed on hard surfaces. On reasonably worn single track and over roots, the front suspension covers what I need. I've ridden full sus and hardtail mtn bikes in rough terrain. Probably the only thing keeping me from adding one is the amount of time I have to ride and the poor proximity of serious mtn bike trails that are too rough for a gravel bike.
The funniest part of all these is timing. Tubeless is widely accepted, since it's been around for nearly 20 years. When I early adopted people thought I was mad, and I nearly did too after a couple hundred miles on Panaracer Fire XC tubeless tires, but boy am I glad I stuck with it and found endless traction over wet East Coast roots with Kenda Nevegals at 18 psi. There'll always be luddites that naysay new tech but the march of progress is inevitable. Forward the future!
Wow, 18 PSI?!? How is that even possible. At 6'5" and avg 265#, I prefer a tire pressure of 60 psi off road. Granted I'm not a hardcore thrasher. I enjoy off road rides 10 to 30 miles in length and on road rides up to 50 miles. I don't hate on anyone who enjoys various types of tech different than mine. Just want us all to continue having options that fit our various riding styles and keep us on 2 wheels as much as possible.
About gravel suspension ... I reckon its a worthy innovation. My Cannondale XS800 cross bike from the early 2000s had a headshock that offers a very useful 25mm of travel. That's all I need for crap roads and light trail use. Plus, I think it's probably lighter than the MTB-style offerings from Fox, etc. Cheers
12 speed: I don’t think I need 12 speeds, but a 5:1 hear ratio is pretty nice. If Shimano had come out with an 11 speed 10-51t option I would have been been happy. I dislike that 5:1 ratios require special hubs, and Shimano in particular has made 12 speed and Microspline exclusive to each other, which is annoying as hell when you have a mix of 9-12 speed bikes in your garage and it compounds the thru-axle/QR and boost incompatibilities that last little infuriating bit. Orphaned wheels are really hard to make re-use of these days. Mostly I want fewer standards to trip over. Fewer lock ring standards, BB standards, dropout widths, seatpost diameters, etc.
I can't wait for your post on Pinon, too. I have a Priority 600X and it has become my daily rider in addition to my first choice for bikepacking adventures. The rest of my chain-driven derailleur bikes are jealous that the 600X which I have named "Rubber Band" because of the Gates drive belt gets more ride time. 🤓
To cycle you don’t need much. Just a good bike and go into nature and have fun. When I started building my own gravel and tour bikes from old Cannondale M series frames, I didn’t know why so many people pay crazy money for expensive groupsets if they could be fine with a 2x9 set-up. Cos not everyone is a pro, I guess. I build my own bikes and I run 2x9 setups with all modern parts. Build for prox. 1000 euro a bike. 42/34 front rings and 11/42 cassette. All new stuff is nice but I think there are too many people ‘overgeared’ for what they actually need. Just buy a bike and ride
I'll be the pro gravel (front) suspension here. Of course much shorter travel (30-50mm) is the only thing that makes sense the redshift stem and specialized's futureshock actually do make a nice difference and reduce fatigue for me through the miles.
I went from 3x11 to 2x11 Shimano on my hardtails and bike packing bike, and the 1x12 SRAM on my downhill MTB. I simply never used the smaller rings in the front for down hilling, and as for the rest of the MTB sports and bikes, I never used the smallest ring in front, so I am glad to ditch it going for 2 ring front setup by Shimano (Deore, XT and XTR). This does it for me, good enough. If I would place a single front ring on the non down hill bikes I miss the ranges directly. I am not really sure if it is hypes or marketing, I don't really care either, I just adapt it to my use of the bike, not to a trend that is rolling. Yet the trend I did take was 1x12 for down hilling. And if that is SRAM of Shimano, I don't really care. Just with electronic shifting in future, maybe, just only on my downhiller, not the rest. This is due to not wanting to depend on battery life etc. Tubeless or not, I use tubed tyres although tubeless ready, on my regular MTB bikes and travel bikes, and for the downhiller only tubeless with inserts. As for innertubes, I use Schwalbe only, which are strong, pierce resistant and sure also heavy, but it is that extra layer that keeps mine from getting pierced...not sure why I didn't make them all tubeless,...but I guess it is also extra maintenance in a way, and the fluids...I like to keep things fresh and clean, and it's a messy thing for sure. So...I did it my way again I guess. Might be even what a lot of people do. But more and more I see people also use tubeless on the rest of the bikes, maybe it is getting used to. Didn't doubt my setup yet nor had to, so, why break and change my winning formula, because of a trend right? That is not really my thing, I always want to see improvement and reason. So for my regulars and travel MTB's I am stuck on tyres and innertubes...it is just how it is and I found it to become my system. Tubeless is a innovation though, not a hype, but it depends where you use it..and for what use of the bikes... :D Uff...the lefty... I am sure it has great performance, but I get sea sick watching it. And I do not really use Cannondale bikes. It is to me a good innovation, since I saw tests. But it just looks goofy, and to some, modern and unusual, eye catching is all. I am fine with my forks having two arms. E Shift SRAM, is an innovation, it helps reduce clutter, specially for down hill I am saving up for e shifting from SRAM. Why is...reducing clutter maximally on my down hill bike. Is...more safe. The rest of my bikes I rather not deal with battery hassle, so I keep them mechanical forever. Until we get rid of the needing to reloading batteries and time during trips, and stress if a battery stops to function. I hate that stress. So...I keep the wish only for my down hill MTB.
I think that the biggest disadvantage of flat mount brake callipers (for the community ofc) is that it creates another not-so-fully-compatible standard, while not giving any obvious benefit. "Your old callipers wont work on this frame because.... Eff you! Buy new ones instead!" Ofc with new callipers come new STIs and with new STIs come new drivetrain It sounds to me like a cheap trick to rip a lot of money of bikers
Well, all the bike industry is kinda fonctionning in that fashion, there's new standarts popping out all the time to create obsolescence and boosting the market. And now all those proprietary technologies are becoming more and more present, so it is not taking the right path regarding standard harmonisation and reliability. And, as a bike mechanic I found that deeply annoying.
I did this, and did unbound on it. and now I have a lauf with their funky fork. the lauf is more comfy, lighter, faster, and (incidentally) also has a much larger triangle for my bags. my particular XC (orbea alma M30) has a pretty small triangle for hauling stuff. Just my $.02, but I prioritize comfort first, and speed second. the lauf seems to meet both of those requirements just fine. the hardtail was heavier (fork, bars, and groupset) by about 5lbs (still around 25lbs with my setup, not terrible) and I was running the same tires for gravel on both bikes. lauf also has way more bolt bosses for cages and bags. all around it's just purpose build for ultra endurance gravel. the XC is probably the bike I own that can literally do anything you throw it at, but it's not going to be the best at any one thing. the purpose build gravel bike w/ suspension fork (for me), seems to be the best bike for gravel in terms of comfort and capability.
@@KwadSkwad Great, I agree, comfort is my priority too. I like steel frames and also like Ti frames. I haven’t built up XC hardtail as a gravel but have converted an old hardtail to a commuter bike a couple of times.
Think it might've been hard to disentangle the specifics of flat mount as a standard (crap/hype) versus the idea of getting hydraulic brakes on bikes that didn't previously have them (great/"innovation")
I'm amazed there's still so much negativity over electronic shifting. It shifts more smoothly than most mechanical drivetrains, requires almost no maintenance, and entry level prices are getting lower. I get that some people like the aesthetics of mechanical, but it doesn't negate the advances that electronic shifting represents.
I have two bikes with 1x gearing: a gravel bike and an e-bike. In neither case was that 1x system a selling point; it was just the sole option on the bike I wanted. I might eventually upgrade my gravel bike to 2x. It should be possible.
Digging the casual party conversation critique of surveillance capitalism. But the real question is, could I save $ and just make a dot matrix printer noise when I shift instead to impress my friends?
I think much of the innovations are beneficial to some and waste to others. For my riding tubeless and e shifters would be waste and extra maintenance I don't need for the benefits they give. If it makes sense for you and your riding go for it. If it doesn't then pass on it.
I am not sure gravel bikes need suspension forks... My first mountain bike in the 80s was essentially a gravel bike... no suspension, flat bars, (I think it had a 2x6 drivetrain that I got a highschool machine shop student to make me a larger top ring for so I could ride faster on road), and 26" x 2(ish)" tires that where good for road or trail. O.k. I admit washboard can be hard on the arms at times, but what is next... suspension seat posts, then full suspension to give them a cushier ride on the dirt roads??? (this coming from the guy with a full suspension 29er trail bike sitting on a trainer frame next to his computer desk )
I love your Videos and Tipps! I even bought Tools and Ride a Wrap after your Video! Only 1×11 and 1×12 Sram or Shimano this desapoints me😕! What about Campagnolo Ekar 1×13? The Group is Dope and the least bespoke Feature is that you can easy turn Gravelbike by Switching it from 40 42/9 in a Hardtail by 38 44/10 and 650b's or in a proper Roadbike 40 42/9 and Aero Rim's 😎😎😎 Still like your Videos but here your missin something!
I dont think 1x12 was necessarily a worthy innovation over 1x11, but I think Microspline was a very worthy innovation over HG. The 10 tooth cog is what really makes 12 speed a worthwhile upgrade over 11 because of how much more top end it gives you over an 11 tooth cog. But Sram NX 1x12 is crap compared to Shimano Deore 1x11 - NX has the older style 11 tooth cog so theres no range advantage, and NX shifts like crap. Not to mention 12 speed requires more accurate indexing and cheap derailleurs are more likely to get jostled out of alignment. Cheap 12 speed is worse than quality 11 speed
Electronic shifting sucks! . . . Okay, not really. I like electronic shifting just fine. It requires significantly less after-install adjustments. It is much easier for people with hand strength issues to shift. It provides exceptionally consistent shifting - always a standard reliable shift. And, electronic shifting doesn't get screwed up by having dirty or damaged cables or housing. BUT, to suggest that electronic shifting is "faster" or "smoother" than mechanical shifting suggests the person doing the shifting it not particularly accomplished. A good mechanical shift is almost instantaneous compared to an electronic shift. Di2 or AXS electronic shifting both have a slight pause from the button push to the full motor activation. With mechanical depending on the shifter you are using you can time either your lever press or lever release (whichever moves the cable) to shift at the exact instant you want it. And, especially with a slight bit of pedal load, an electronic shift is less predictable than a mechanical shift when trying to time the actual derailleur push to your pedal position or pedal load. I suspect wireless electronic shifting is the way of the future for its ease of install, ease of use, and potentially low relative maintenance. But, I'd love to see reviews stop suggesting that electronic shifting speed and smoothness is inherently better than mechanical. For many of us, it is not.
even after listening to your stance on flat mounts, i still don't see why this makes a difference for the owner one way or the other? seems like they just changed the location of the brake?
If I want to have a contained multispeed transmission, adding external mechanical shifting linkage can easily reduce the overall effectiveness of the system. Kinda defeats the purpose of containment. That's when electrical wiring and servos start to make sense. (And electronic actuation makes adding radio control start to make sense. And so on.) But this effectiveness comparison gets really close. What it then comes down to for me is reliability. Today's electronics can be "hardened" but even that promise isn't always kept. I want eleven people to each try to put a thousand miles on the setup and tell me when it breaks.
this is what I think too! I have yet to see some electronic stuff that lasts as long as the 20 year old xt hardware I have on my trek 950… No clue if it shifts better, I bet it does. but what makes bikes so sexy for me is the lack of maintenance. It's "simple". i See where the cable goes. I see where the fluid goes. No need of "updating" or charging. Its a range where we're at: simplicity/reliability comfort/modern parts Everyone of us has to decide for him/herself
@@tillpera I figure this can go either way. I used to have a 1969 VW Squareback with the original Bosch fuel injection -- and its "brain" with 5 transistors. Drove it for 15 years. Practically "bullet proof" and no history of anyone's unit failing. (The injectors needed cleaning every 10,000 miles or so.) The whole system was actually easier to work with than the carburetors on prior models. Point is, electronics aren't always fragile and finicky. But we also know otherwise. For my ebike, on 50-100 mile excursions, I can easily carry an extra motor, management unit and battery that I engineered for about $300, that weighs about 40 pounds. (3/4 horsepower can easily handle the weight and I can engage the second power-train with low gearing on steep grades.) I carry the duplicate stuff because something is very likely to break. Tiny servos and tiny circuits to control those mechanisms could conceivably be made sturdy. I'd want proof though. Even if hundreds of people put thousands of miles on a type of electronic bicycle gear-change unit, mine or yours could be the one that fails out in the wilderness.
One thing Shimano is pushing is for budget consumers to consider chinese products when it comes to mechanical shifting. They seem to be running far far away from mechanical to battery operated. From what I heard they are abondoning mechanical shifting on the 105 groupset. Just a saw a video of a 12 speed mechanical with hydraulic brakes road groupset for under $400 from China.
Can somebody explain "downcountry" bikes? Aren't trail bikes meant to be the happy medium between XC and enduro bikes? What's the difference between a downcountry and trail bike?
Since manufactures can beef up their bikes by adding more carbon to the frame and add a longer stroke shock it was relatively easy to come out 110mm travel down country bike. This is about figuring what is the best amount of travel for a particular cycling application.
Oh yeah..... and just my two cents worth...... elec. shifting can be divided up into wired (Di2) and wireless (AXS). I've ridden both, and although the shifting ease and accuracy is a unbelievable joy, the wired Di2 is just not for today's tech. Shimano are weird like that.... just refuse to go with the times with some things..... (cup-conus ball-bearing hubs are my biggest peeve)........ I have AXS on my MTB (Orbea Oiz) and my bikepacking bike (Surly ECR), and cable shifting on my fat bike (Surly Wednesday)..... transitioning from one to the other (Elec. to cable and back) is not a problem at all, but I feel that going from AXS to cable is like "Oh yeah, cable shifting, no big deal" while going back to AXS I always have that euphoric "Oh hell yes this is amazing!".
Not really that Shimano refuses to go with the times it is that sram owns the patent on the shifting tech without wires or cables. Example Suntour invented the slant-parallelogram rear derailleur and didn't have the capital to own the market before the patent ran out. The second it did all others had shiny new products that were SunTour's design it was the beginning of the end for them even though they always built superior products compared to Shimano. That is why groups like 105 are going wireless they are flooding the market with their inferior tech and taking advantage of the extreme market share they have. In other words trying to get a vhs vs beta thing going. You know when the obvious better product gets squashed by market share and price. Personally I chose ekar for my last build. A cable don't bother me would rather have build quality.
Man, electronic shifting is rad. If you think it's hype, you haven't tried it. Batteries and bikebacking issues is worth considering, but HYPE it is NOT.
10:34 I don't care how space age your materials are, that's a lot of leverage on one point for no reason. No engineer would design that unless they were told they had to fit a design or didn't actually care about building the best product. Also, wireless shifting is dumb. Run a wire(not a cable), there is no reason for it to be wireless.
Flat mount is not an innovation, it is market segmentation. If it was really innovative then mountain bikes would have already fully adopted it especially that mountain bikes nowadays pretty much all use hydraulic brakes. Sleek look is not advantage, ezcept for posers. Post mount is simply superior: easier to install and align, available in 4 pistons, offers budget options like Shimano MT200, can accommodate bigger rotors easily.
Sorry never seen the point in wireless shifting. I guess it's just my age but every 6 months they seem to add another gear or new shifting pattern or 1x chains ets to make everything you have feel old or dated. Sorry not prepared to buy into this accelerated obsolescence in bike parts. Back to single speed. ...!
downcountry is the future. a 20lb 6inch travel 29er is THE bike. a couple more years and we'll be there. easy to carry on your shoulder and slays the descents. no more xcountry, no more all mountain, no more enduro.
"Downcountry" is the dumbest name. It implies Down Hill mixed with a Cross Country.... but it's not. It's closer to an Enduro/Cross Country mix. It really should be called a Long Travel CC bike.
- Flat-mount brakes: look so much better than Post-mount and IS- mount callipers! Compatibility with 180mm rotors is being sorted by the likes of Hope Tech. I wouldn't settle for uglier interfaces (i.e., Post-mount or IS). . - 12-x drivetrains. A no-brainer: given the choice, everyone somewhat sensible would settle on these over the 11-x counterparts. And on 13-x ones over 12-x ones. - "Downcountry" class of bikes & tyres: I've no opinion on these, as I'm much more into the road endurance and gravel (with slick tyres!) category. - Tubeless systems: in theory, they're the way to go: they look better, are slightly lighter, compatible with custom nipples, including beautiful anodised ones from the likes of Muc-Off, Duke, etc.. In practice - not so much. Reasons: most combinations will leak air much more than tubed systems do. Sometimes, as much as >50% of the the pre-ride pressure. They're high maintenance, need frequent inflation, require a lot of upkeep and necessitate significantly greater expenditure than tubed systems do. They're highly cost-inefficient. - Gravel suspension fork: everything but the Lefty Oliver looks ugly - and look terribly mismatched to beautiful frames (i.e., Salsa WarBird, YT Szeptre, the Cervelo Aspero, etc. etc.). The Oliver, while looking hip, has a number of shortcomings (i.e., it's incompatible with proper, low-set, full-coverage mudguards (an issue Cannondale could resolve, but doesn't care to); it's incompatible with hub dynamos; it won't take front panniers / fork packs (I can live with that, but that is still a technical limitation of the Lefty); it's less stable than the traditional fork - and is trickier to ride hands-free for longer distances than a few tens of metres (again, I can easily live with that)). - Electronic Shifting: makes a lot of sense, particularly, Sram's implementation hereof. I am a fan of the eTap AXS. Minimal maintenance (save for the need to charge the batteries once every month or so), highly reliable - and somewhat easier setup than cable-actuated systems. - Dropped seatstays (you forgot to add this): I cannot stand them. There's only a tiny handful of bikes that does them well - the Cannondale Synapse, the Cervelo Aspero, the YT Szeptre and probably a couple of others. Almost every other implementation of dropped seatstays is positively hideous! It doesn;t solve a real issue (that can't be solved without it), yet looks off-putting in most cases. Take the Ridley Kanzo Fast, for instance: it's ugly! Idem, the DiamondBack IO. And, really, 98% of dropped seatstay frames! - Additive manufacturing / 3D-printed lugs used in boutique frame manufacture (you forgot to mention this): it is THE way to go, particularly for metal bikes. Some manufacturers are finally starting to implement them in their designs, but, in almost every case but the delightful, but prohibitively expensive Bastion Cycles' and Métier Velo - the use of 3D-printed titanium lugs is limited to the front end (i.e., the head tube), while the remainder of the bike(s) sport hideous welds. If only there was a titanium bike that matches the Salsa WarBird's aesthetic, but adds a couple of cm. of stack and uses Santana Z -type frame couplers for transportability!
This video was supported by Salsa Cycles. Learn more about the Salsa Anything Cradle here: www.salsacycles.com/gear/exp_series_anything_cradle_35mm?.com&
I actually switched from 1X to 2X. The only place i would use 1X is on an MTB, to avoid chain drops on very rough terrain. On gravel bikes for bike packing, 2X is better.
If down country bikes can win majority of XC race events, then XC bikes are obsolete.
some numbers probably got mixed up here- 10-50t eagle is a 500% range, 10-52 is 520%...
Rad vid as always Niel.
One thing to note (as you've had limited experience with gravel forks) is that u like the telescopic forks, the Lauf fork isn't as niche in it's application. Telescopic = has seal stiction, so even with light damping it's really like a mini MTB fork (poor tiny bump sensitivity, air spring that is largely progressive, requires a medium sized hit to hit the most supple/digressive part of the air spring).
The Lauf fork has no damping and because of it's reliant on flexing of the springs to become more active, it works perfectly for general "gravel" riding. Basicslly it resists low speed small-medium input (e.g. climbing, riding along inputs) and opens up/becomes more active the faster you impact it (like water bars etc). Aka it's optimized for gravel roads not singletrack/relatively lower speed more technical mountain biking.
I have my gravelbike suspension of now for service. I thought to sell it afterwards but today I went out for a 100km ride and I miss it A LOT! More pain in the back and shoulders and less grip
The Lauf is genius!!! Rohloff, Pinion w. belt drive genius!!!! Tubeless genius!!! Hydro disc brakes genius!!! Can't think of any other innovations in the past 20 years that come close.
Dropper posts too!
The laud is genius? It is a half measure.
@@sepg5084 what's laud?
Tubeless is my favorite here. I currently have six bikes set up tubeless, everything from a fatbike to a crit race bike. It simply works better. Some tire/ wheel combinations can be a pain to set up initially, that's the only downside. There are many, many upsides.
Only downside? LOL I guess you prefer to wear a chem suite when changing tires or repairing flats? (Yes, I realize, tubeless usually is less prone to flats. But I prefer tubes with no mess and still riding for nearly 2 years with the same tubes.)
I've been basically exclusively riding gravel the last 2 years now. I have a hardtail mtb and a gravel bike with suspension (lauf siegla). I did unbound 200 on my hardtail with gravel tires and drop bars(surly corner bars!!), and several thousand training miles. I've got almost 800 miles on the lauf now. It is not the same. for pure gravel, the lauf is more comfy and faster. there's a weight pentalty on the hardtail, especially the fork, and the gearing was a bit low (great for climbing, terrible for long straight sections.)
The MTB fork takes the big hits but not the chatter. the lauf fork takes the chatter but not the big hits. for gravel, it's all chatter (or at least 95%) and assuming you pick your lines well, it definitely increases comfort when you spend hours in the saddle.
If I'm comparing gravel w/ suspension to gravel w/o suspension, I'm picking the lauf fork every time. also on descents I drop everyone. that thing can really shred downhill.
Been out ridin in the snow and -0°s and I so appreciate the snowy background in your tech reviews. Let's keep riding in ALL weather and leave those four-wheeled planet-wreckers parked. Excellent reviews.
Pretty much agree with everything, but to electronic shifting I’d add the electronic waste aspect. These things don’t last forever, especially the batteries. They’re going to have to go somewhere, many (most?) people will just throw them in the trash, and for what? They’re not reducing carbon output, and taking mining and manufacturing into consideration, they’re adding carbon. For me at the end of the day that’s more cost than improvement in shifting, so the value proposition isn’t there. Yeah, it’s awesome and works awesome and all that. But not so much better that it’s worth the added cost, complexity, and harm to our environment. For that reason, I’ll stick to cables.
Tubeless is great on bikes with 40mm + tyres and less than 40psi. With skinny tyres and higher pressure though I find it doesn't always seal properly so I still use tubes on skinnier tyres.
If you're gonna add a suspension to a gravel bike, just get a hardtail... the weight is about the same and it will be MUCH more versatile and comfy! That's the route I took. Thanks and Merry Christmas to ALL!!!
Gravelbike with suspension ist not a Gravelbike
@@thebikepacker_ gravel bikes are all marketing BS
@@THEBLACKANARCHIST So are "downcountry" bikes
I wouldn't be surprised if the survey results correlated to if the person was fundamentally a road to gravel or mtn to gravel person. I'm the former and chose a Lauf for the suspension without the fork maintenance. I got to retain the familiar road bike position and near road bike speed on hard surfaces. On reasonably worn single track and over roots, the front suspension covers what I need. I've ridden full sus and hardtail mtn bikes in rough terrain. Probably the only thing keeping me from adding one is the amount of time I have to ride and the poor proximity of serious mtn bike trails that are too rough for a gravel bike.
TBF, you can’t run road cranks in a mountain BB shell. Gearing plays a huge roll in mixed terrain riding.
this channel is so inspiring and cool. I did watched all the video I was interested of and more ... thank you!
The funniest part of all these is timing. Tubeless is widely accepted, since it's been around for nearly 20 years. When I early adopted people thought I was mad, and I nearly did too after a couple hundred miles on Panaracer Fire XC tubeless tires, but boy am I glad I stuck with it and found endless traction over wet East Coast roots with Kenda Nevegals at 18 psi. There'll always be luddites that naysay new tech but the march of progress is inevitable. Forward the future!
Wow, 18 PSI?!? How is that even possible. At 6'5" and avg 265#, I prefer a tire pressure of 60 psi off road. Granted I'm not a hardcore thrasher. I enjoy off road rides 10 to 30 miles in length and on road rides up to 50 miles. I don't hate on anyone who enjoys various types of tech different than mine. Just want us all to continue having options that fit our various riding styles and keep us on 2 wheels as much as possible.
@@dstaff4134 those old Kendas were full on UST and thick casings made it possible. Today's "tubeless ready" would've been pinch flatted in 10 seconds.
About gravel suspension ... I reckon its a worthy innovation. My Cannondale XS800 cross bike from the early 2000s had a headshock that offers a very useful 25mm of travel. That's all I need for crap roads and light trail use. Plus, I think it's probably lighter than the MTB-style offerings from Fox, etc.
Cheers
12 speed: I don’t think I need 12 speeds, but a 5:1 hear ratio is pretty nice. If Shimano had come out with an 11 speed 10-51t option I would have been been happy. I dislike that 5:1 ratios require special hubs, and Shimano in particular has made 12 speed and Microspline exclusive to each other, which is annoying as hell when you have a mix of 9-12 speed bikes in your garage and it compounds the thru-axle/QR and boost incompatibilities that last little infuriating bit. Orphaned wheels are really hard to make re-use of these days. Mostly I want fewer standards to trip over. Fewer lock ring standards, BB standards, dropout widths, seatpost diameters, etc.
I can't wait for your post on Pinon, too. I have a Priority 600X and it has become my daily rider in addition to my first choice for bikepacking adventures. The rest of my chain-driven derailleur bikes are jealous that the 600X which I have named "Rubber Band" because of the Gates drive belt gets more ride time. 🤓
To cycle you don’t need much. Just a good bike and go into nature and have fun. When I started building my own gravel and tour bikes from old Cannondale M series frames, I didn’t know why so many people pay crazy money for expensive groupsets if they could be fine with a 2x9 set-up. Cos not everyone is a pro, I guess. I build my own bikes and I run 2x9 setups with all modern parts. Build for prox. 1000 euro a bike. 42/34 front rings and 11/42 cassette. All new stuff is nice but I think there are too many people ‘overgeared’ for what they actually need. Just buy a bike and ride
I'll be the pro gravel (front) suspension here. Of course much shorter travel (30-50mm) is the only thing that makes sense the redshift stem and specialized's futureshock actually do make a nice difference and reduce fatigue for me through the miles.
I went from 3x11 to 2x11 Shimano on my hardtails and bike packing bike, and the 1x12 SRAM on my downhill MTB. I simply never used the smaller rings in the front for down hilling, and as for the rest of the MTB sports and bikes, I never used the smallest ring in front, so I am glad to ditch it going for 2 ring front setup by Shimano (Deore, XT and XTR). This does it for me, good enough. If I would place a single front ring on the non down hill bikes I miss the ranges directly. I am not really sure if it is hypes or marketing, I don't really care either, I just adapt it to my use of the bike, not to a trend that is rolling. Yet the trend I did take was 1x12 for down hilling. And if that is SRAM of Shimano, I don't really care. Just with electronic shifting in future, maybe, just only on my downhiller, not the rest. This is due to not wanting to depend on battery life etc.
Tubeless or not, I use tubed tyres although tubeless ready, on my regular MTB bikes and travel bikes, and for the downhiller only tubeless with inserts. As for innertubes, I use Schwalbe only, which are strong, pierce resistant and sure also heavy, but it is that extra layer that keeps mine from getting pierced...not sure why I didn't make them all tubeless,...but I guess it is also extra maintenance in a way, and the fluids...I like to keep things fresh and clean, and it's a messy thing for sure. So...I did it my way again I guess. Might be even what a lot of people do. But more and more I see people also use tubeless on the rest of the bikes, maybe it is getting used to. Didn't doubt my setup yet nor had to, so, why break and change my winning formula, because of a trend right? That is not really my thing, I always want to see improvement and reason. So for my regulars and travel MTB's I am stuck on tyres and innertubes...it is just how it is and I found it to become my system. Tubeless is a innovation though, not a hype, but it depends where you use it..and for what use of the bikes... :D
Uff...the lefty... I am sure it has great performance, but I get sea sick watching it. And I do not really use Cannondale bikes. It is to me a good innovation, since I saw tests. But it just looks goofy, and to some, modern and unusual, eye catching is all. I am fine with my forks having two arms.
E Shift SRAM, is an innovation, it helps reduce clutter, specially for down hill I am saving up for e shifting from SRAM. Why is...reducing clutter maximally on my down hill bike. Is...more safe. The rest of my bikes I rather not deal with battery hassle, so I keep them mechanical forever. Until we get rid of the needing to reloading batteries and time during trips, and stress if a battery stops to function. I hate that stress. So...I keep the wish only for my down hill MTB.
I think that the biggest disadvantage of flat mount brake callipers (for the community ofc) is that it creates another not-so-fully-compatible standard, while not giving any obvious benefit. "Your old callipers wont work on this frame because.... Eff you! Buy new ones instead!" Ofc with new callipers come new STIs and with new STIs come new drivetrain
It sounds to me like a cheap trick to rip a lot of money of bikers
Well, all the bike industry is kinda fonctionning in that fashion, there's new standarts popping out all the time to create obsolescence and boosting the market. And now all those proprietary technologies are becoming more and more present, so it is not taking the right path regarding standard harmonisation and reliability.
And, as a bike mechanic I found that deeply annoying.
Suspension fork on gravel is a replacement for a XC hardtail. Heck why not just get a XC hardtail on eBay from 10 years ago and set up with drop bars?
I did this, and did unbound on it. and now I have a lauf with their funky fork. the lauf is more comfy, lighter, faster, and (incidentally) also has a much larger triangle for my bags. my particular XC (orbea alma M30) has a pretty small triangle for hauling stuff.
Just my $.02, but I prioritize comfort first, and speed second. the lauf seems to meet both of those requirements just fine. the hardtail was heavier (fork, bars, and groupset) by about 5lbs (still around 25lbs with my setup, not terrible) and I was running the same tires for gravel on both bikes. lauf also has way more bolt bosses for cages and bags. all around it's just purpose build for ultra endurance gravel. the XC is probably the bike I own that can literally do anything you throw it at, but it's not going to be the best at any one thing. the purpose build gravel bike w/ suspension fork (for me), seems to be the best bike for gravel in terms of comfort and capability.
@@KwadSkwad Great, I agree, comfort is my priority too. I like steel frames and also like Ti frames. I haven’t built up XC hardtail as a gravel but have converted an old hardtail to a commuter bike a couple of times.
Think it might've been hard to disentangle the specifics of flat mount as a standard (crap/hype) versus the idea of getting hydraulic brakes on bikes that didn't previously have them (great/"innovation")
Great video, merry Christmas, ride safe everyone ...
I'm amazed there's still so much negativity over electronic shifting. It shifts more smoothly than most mechanical drivetrains, requires almost no maintenance, and entry level prices are getting lower. I get that some people like the aesthetics of mechanical, but it doesn't negate the advances that electronic shifting represents.
30+ years mountain biking and never needed more than a £750 10 year old bike with a triple chainset and good old inner tubes.
Same here... I like simple, basic, time-tested reliable gear... I even went back to friction shifting on my touring bike... works like a charm.
I have two bikes with 1x gearing: a gravel bike and an e-bike. In neither case was that 1x system a selling point; it was just the sole option on the bike I wanted. I might eventually upgrade my gravel bike to 2x. It should be possible.
My Orbea Oiz has FM rear brake........ I Love the bike.... Hate the FM "standard"
Digging the casual party conversation critique of surveillance capitalism. But the real question is, could I save $ and just make a dot matrix printer noise when I shift instead to impress my friends?
Flat mount calliper are more slick and compact and all
Mount at 2:50 : hold my beer
I think much of the innovations are beneficial to some and waste to others. For my riding tubeless and e shifters would be waste and extra maintenance I don't need for the benefits they give. If it makes sense for you and your riding go for it. If it doesn't then pass on it.
Great video!
I am not sure gravel bikes need suspension forks... My first mountain bike in the 80s was essentially a gravel bike... no suspension, flat bars, (I think it had a 2x6 drivetrain that I got a highschool machine shop student to make me a larger top ring for so I could ride faster on road), and 26" x 2(ish)" tires that where good for road or trail. O.k. I admit washboard can be hard on the arms at times, but what is next... suspension seat posts, then full suspension to give them a cushier ride on the dirt roads??? (this coming from the guy with a full suspension 29er trail bike sitting on a trainer frame next to his computer desk )
.... And what about 1x13 from Campagnolo?
1x13 makes sense until you ride a Classified Rear Hub system, then it is just over kill.
@@coldforgedcowboy have you ever tried it?
You can install the Ekar on a regular hub
@@davidpala7882 ...not yet, I waiting for Classified Cycles to come out with their mountain bike version which is currently in development.
@@coldforgedcowboy also Ekar 13 speed is 9-36 endurance, 9-42 gravel and 10-44 adventure
I love your Videos and Tipps! I even bought Tools and Ride a Wrap after your Video! Only 1×11 and 1×12 Sram or Shimano this desapoints me😕! What about Campagnolo Ekar 1×13?
The Group is Dope and the least bespoke Feature is that you can easy turn Gravelbike by Switching it from 40 42/9 in a Hardtail by 38 44/10 and 650b's or in a proper Roadbike 40 42/9 and Aero Rim's 😎😎😎
Still like your Videos but here your missin something!
I dont think 1x12 was necessarily a worthy innovation over 1x11, but I think Microspline was a very worthy innovation over HG. The 10 tooth cog is what really makes 12 speed a worthwhile upgrade over 11 because of how much more top end it gives you over an 11 tooth cog. But Sram NX 1x12 is crap compared to Shimano Deore 1x11 - NX has the older style 11 tooth cog so theres no range advantage, and NX shifts like crap. Not to mention 12 speed requires more accurate indexing and cheap derailleurs are more likely to get jostled out of alignment. Cheap 12 speed is worse than quality 11 speed
Electronic shifting sucks! . . . Okay, not really. I like electronic shifting just fine. It requires significantly less after-install adjustments. It is much easier for people with hand strength issues to shift. It provides exceptionally consistent shifting - always a standard reliable shift. And, electronic shifting doesn't get screwed up by having dirty or damaged cables or housing. BUT, to suggest that electronic shifting is "faster" or "smoother" than mechanical shifting suggests the person doing the shifting it not particularly accomplished. A good mechanical shift is almost instantaneous compared to an electronic shift. Di2 or AXS electronic shifting both have a slight pause from the button push to the full motor activation. With mechanical depending on the shifter you are using you can time either your lever press or lever release (whichever moves the cable) to shift at the exact instant you want it. And, especially with a slight bit of pedal load, an electronic shift is less predictable than a mechanical shift when trying to time the actual derailleur push to your pedal position or pedal load. I suspect wireless electronic shifting is the way of the future for its ease of install, ease of use, and potentially low relative maintenance. But, I'd love to see reviews stop suggesting that electronic shifting speed and smoothness is inherently better than mechanical. For many of us, it is not.
even after listening to your stance on flat mounts, i still don't see why this makes a difference for the owner one way or the other? seems like they just changed the location of the brake?
Adjustment!!!! But it’s clear people don’t hate them as much as me.
If I want to have a contained multispeed transmission, adding external mechanical shifting linkage can easily reduce the overall effectiveness of the system. Kinda defeats the purpose of containment. That's when electrical wiring and servos start to make sense. (And electronic actuation makes adding radio control start to make sense. And so on.) But this effectiveness comparison gets really close.
What it then comes down to for me is reliability. Today's electronics can be "hardened" but even that promise isn't always kept. I want eleven people to each try to put a thousand miles on the setup and tell me when it breaks.
this is what I think too!
I have yet to see some electronic stuff that lasts as long as the 20 year old xt hardware I have on my trek 950…
No clue if it shifts better, I bet it does. but what makes bikes so sexy for me is the lack of maintenance. It's "simple".
i See where the cable goes. I see where the fluid goes. No need of "updating" or charging.
Its a range where we're at: simplicity/reliability comfort/modern parts
Everyone of us has to decide for him/herself
@@tillpera I figure this can go either way.
I used to have a 1969 VW Squareback with the original Bosch fuel injection -- and its "brain" with 5 transistors. Drove it for 15 years. Practically "bullet proof" and no history of anyone's unit failing. (The injectors needed cleaning every 10,000 miles or so.) The whole system was actually easier to work with than the carburetors on prior models. Point is, electronics aren't always fragile and finicky.
But we also know otherwise. For my ebike, on 50-100 mile excursions, I can easily carry an extra motor, management unit and battery that I engineered for about $300, that weighs about 40 pounds. (3/4 horsepower can easily handle the weight and I can engage the second power-train with low gearing on steep grades.) I carry the duplicate stuff because something is very likely to break.
Tiny servos and tiny circuits to control those mechanisms could conceivably be made sturdy. I'd want proof though. Even if hundreds of people put thousands of miles on a type of electronic bicycle gear-change unit, mine or yours could be the one that fails out in the wilderness.
One thing Shimano is pushing is for budget consumers to consider chinese products when it comes to mechanical shifting. They seem to be running far far away from mechanical to battery operated. From what I heard they are abondoning mechanical shifting on the 105 groupset. Just a saw a video of a 12 speed mechanical with hydraulic brakes road groupset for under $400 from China.
Can somebody explain "downcountry" bikes? Aren't trail bikes meant to be the happy medium between XC and enduro bikes? What's the difference between a downcountry and trail bike?
Since manufactures can beef up their bikes by adding more carbon to the frame and add a longer stroke shock it was relatively easy to come out 110mm travel down country bike. This is about figuring what is the best amount of travel for a particular cycling application.
Happy medium between XC and trail. Or a trail bike you can jump into an occasional XC race in. Basically a more capable and comfortable XC bike.
Oh yeah..... and just my two cents worth...... elec. shifting can be divided up into wired (Di2) and wireless (AXS). I've ridden both, and although the shifting ease and accuracy is a unbelievable joy, the wired Di2 is just not for today's tech. Shimano are weird like that.... just refuse to go with the times with some things..... (cup-conus ball-bearing hubs are my biggest peeve)........
I have AXS on my MTB (Orbea Oiz) and my bikepacking bike (Surly ECR), and cable shifting on my fat bike (Surly Wednesday)..... transitioning from one to the other (Elec. to cable and back) is not a problem at all, but I feel that going from AXS to cable is like "Oh yeah, cable shifting, no big deal" while going back to AXS I always have that euphoric "Oh hell yes this is amazing!".
Not really that Shimano refuses to go with the times it is that sram owns the patent on the shifting tech without wires or cables.
Example Suntour invented the slant-parallelogram rear derailleur and didn't have the capital to own the market before the patent ran out. The second it did all others had shiny new products that were SunTour's design it was the beginning of the end for them even though they always built superior products compared to Shimano.
That is why groups like 105 are going wireless they are flooding the market with their inferior tech and taking advantage of the extreme market share they have. In other words trying to get a vhs vs beta thing going. You know when the obvious better product gets squashed by market share and price.
Personally I chose ekar for my last build. A cable don't bother me would rather have build quality.
Man, electronic shifting is rad. If you think it's hype, you haven't tried it. Batteries and bikebacking issues is worth considering, but HYPE it is NOT.
10:34 I don't care how space age your materials are, that's a lot of leverage on one point for no reason. No engineer would design that unless they were told they had to fit a design or didn't actually care about building the best product.
Also, wireless shifting is dumb. Run a wire(not a cable), there is no reason for it to be wireless.
My sympathies to Niner sponsored athletes who are forced to ride the thoroughly ridiculous full sus Groad bike.
Flat mount is just not that flat on a lot of bikes I’ve built last few years
How tubeless didn’t get 100% I’ll never know lol
Flat mount is not an innovation, it is market segmentation. If it was really innovative then mountain bikes would have already fully adopted it especially that mountain bikes nowadays pretty much all use hydraulic brakes.
Sleek look is not advantage, ezcept for posers. Post mount is simply superior: easier to install and align, available in 4 pistons, offers budget options like Shimano MT200, can accommodate bigger rotors easily.
Sorry never seen the point in wireless shifting. I guess it's just my age but every 6 months they seem to add another gear or new shifting pattern or 1x chains ets to make everything you have feel old or dated. Sorry not prepared to buy into this accelerated obsolescence in bike parts. Back to single speed. ...!
downcountry is the future. a 20lb 6inch travel 29er is THE bike. a couple more years and we'll be there. easy to carry on your shoulder and slays the descents. no more xcountry, no more all mountain, no more enduro.
Why are you letting Salsa call a rotated rack “a cradle”? It’s a rack. A rack that has been rotated 90°.
Mech is real. Fuck wireless, fuck electronic, fuck hydraulic, fuck sealants.
How about there is no reason to have drop bars on a Mt bike! Just makes me laugh watching someone try to ride down something technical in the drops
"Downcountry" is the dumbest name. It implies Down Hill mixed with a Cross Country.... but it's not. It's closer to an Enduro/Cross Country mix. It really should be called a Long Travel CC bike.
- Flat-mount brakes: look so much better than Post-mount and IS- mount callipers! Compatibility with 180mm rotors is being sorted by the likes of Hope Tech. I wouldn't settle for uglier interfaces (i.e., Post-mount or IS). .
- 12-x drivetrains. A no-brainer: given the choice, everyone somewhat sensible would settle on these over the 11-x counterparts. And on 13-x ones over 12-x ones.
- "Downcountry" class of bikes & tyres: I've no opinion on these, as I'm much more into the road endurance and gravel (with slick tyres!) category.
- Tubeless systems: in theory, they're the way to go: they look better, are slightly lighter, compatible with custom nipples, including beautiful anodised ones from the likes of Muc-Off, Duke, etc.. In practice - not so much. Reasons: most combinations will leak air much more than tubed systems do. Sometimes, as much as >50% of the the pre-ride pressure. They're high maintenance, need frequent inflation, require a lot of upkeep and necessitate significantly greater expenditure than tubed systems do. They're highly cost-inefficient.
- Gravel suspension fork: everything but the Lefty Oliver looks ugly - and look terribly mismatched to beautiful frames (i.e., Salsa WarBird, YT Szeptre, the Cervelo Aspero, etc. etc.). The Oliver, while looking hip, has a number of shortcomings (i.e., it's incompatible with proper, low-set, full-coverage mudguards (an issue Cannondale could resolve, but doesn't care to); it's incompatible with hub dynamos; it won't take front panniers / fork packs (I can live with that, but that is still a technical limitation of the Lefty); it's less stable than the traditional fork - and is trickier to ride hands-free for longer distances than a few tens of metres (again, I can easily live with that)).
- Electronic Shifting: makes a lot of sense, particularly, Sram's implementation hereof. I am a fan of the eTap AXS. Minimal maintenance (save for the need to charge the batteries once every month or so), highly reliable - and somewhat easier setup than cable-actuated systems.
- Dropped seatstays (you forgot to add this): I cannot stand them. There's only a tiny handful of bikes that does them well - the Cannondale Synapse, the Cervelo Aspero, the YT Szeptre and probably a couple of others. Almost every other implementation of dropped seatstays is positively hideous! It doesn;t solve a real issue (that can't be solved without it), yet looks off-putting in most cases. Take the Ridley Kanzo Fast, for instance: it's ugly! Idem, the DiamondBack IO. And, really, 98% of dropped seatstay frames!
- Additive manufacturing / 3D-printed lugs used in boutique frame manufacture (you forgot to mention this): it is THE way to go, particularly for metal bikes. Some manufacturers are finally starting to implement them in their designs, but, in almost every case but the delightful, but prohibitively expensive Bastion Cycles' and Métier Velo - the use of 3D-printed titanium lugs is limited to the front end (i.e., the head tube), while the remainder of the bike(s) sport hideous welds. If only there was a titanium bike that matches the Salsa WarBird's aesthetic, but adds a couple of cm. of stack and uses Santana Z -type frame couplers for transportability!