I’m still surprised that in the conversation about wide bars, this review and others tend only to focus on terrain/maneuverability, and not on bike fit or the human bodies we’re pairing with these parts. While I think having the woodchipper-esque flair is great, and having wider drop bars as a possibility is great, ultimately the bars have to work for the body they’re paired with. For me, 40cm cowchippers won by keeping my arms in a direct line from my body. Hypermobility issues mean that an ultrawide bar = wrists dipping inwards = pain. I guess what I’m saying is, people should ultimately pick what’s comfortable over what’s trendy. Sometimes, those things align, othertimes, not. Thanks, Neil!
I agree 100%. I have never understood the wide bar trend. I get pains to my shoulders if the bar is too wide. I ride a 660mm Jones, a 590mm Jones and a ~380mm Bullhorn bars.
I agree, comfort is no.1 with me also. I'm always surprised by the need for increased leverage as reasoning for wide bars. Although a wider bar does increase leverage, I've never had a problem steering my bike.
Years ago, due to an auto accident, I had 2 vertebrae in my neck fused. Consequently, I find drop bars impossible and flat mtb bars very uncomfortable due to limited range of motion . The saving grace for me is the Jones H Bar. I have a variation of this bar on all my bikes. I absolutely love this bar. I had to lengthen cables/hoses on most of them to accommodate this bar. I have the Cane Creek Thudbuster on my newest hard tail bike and I have noticed more comfort for longer rides with this seat post. Different people have different needs for a multitude of reasons.....Thank God for all of the different accessories available to customize your rig. Everyone has a different reason for being in the saddle and different expectations from that experience. I think everyone who watches this vid will agree that being able to ride is a good thing. Thanks for sharing.
Amy, I just got around to watching this and what can I say? An incredible ride to get through it with all that pain. Such an honest account of the ride; you really capture what it's like to experience the rollercoaster of the highs and lows of long distance cycling. Chapeau to you and Kyle!
Wasn't the On-One Midge wider than the Salsa Woodchipper and available a few years earlier? I built my first generation Fargo with one back then. That was a great bike.
Oh, I was not referring to it being any narrower than the woodchipper, I was just saying the widest offering in the woodchipper was 46cm. If someone knows more about the Midge, I would love to hear about it, I didn't get to chat with anyone regarding that bar, but i'm pretty sure it came out after the WTB/Specialized RM2.
I found the Surly Moloko bars really need to be at the perfect angle, but once I found the sweet spot and added the Ergon GC-1 grips for alt bars it's amazing!
The Ergon grips really do it for me. Once I installed a pair and adjusted them to fit me, I never suffered from carpal tunnel or are hands ever again. I have these grips on ALL my bikes, even on my bikepacking bike that has a Jones Bar fitted.
I like my 38cm dropbars (like my shoulderbone width) with 6° flare. My 43mm tires limit the terrain I am riding, not my handlebars. However the comfort gain on long distances is amazing.
Wandered to your channel exploring hiw to make the ultimate custom Bromton - hoping to experiment w/ completely letting go of car ownershp so every mod counts - appreciate the thorough approach while also keeping your vibe fun
Good information on a variety of subjects I'm interested in. Thank you. BTW, I'm one of those interested in a 200 mm dropper post as I can no longer swing my leg over my seat because of a permanent injury. I use the quick release to raise and lower my seat as I get on and off my bike so I'm definitely going to get a dropper soon.
This series was great and I'm glad I participated in the survey. My humble opinion mimicks yours and I truly believe carbon really comes into it's own when it's "cantilevered". The reason I've put quotations on this term is the fact the orientation of these components does not fall into the true structural engineering definition of a horizontal load bearing overhang. We saw this early on with the introduction of carbon forks and some carbon seatposts on even the most budget friendly aluminum frames. I've simply followed this line of logic by adding more carbon components on my aluminum beater gravel bike and couldn't be happier with the results. Happier to the point where I added carbon components to my budget carbon road bike and...wow! Carbon frames?...not really impressed, except for acceleration. But carbon "weight bearing" components?...you betcha!
I measure Real Reach a little differently, basically finding "Arm Reach" to the grips as the hypotenuse of a triangle. For drop bars as an example: Frame Reach+ Actual Stem length (factoring in angle) + bar reach as one leg; half the width of the bars as the other leg and then find the hypotenuse. I call that arm reach and it helps when trying drastically different bar/stem combos.
Hmmm well I use MTB riser bars minimally 5 cm rise, and 78 cm width. (I am 6.8 nearly 6.9 Ft, so it fits me...) For me it is personal and heard to beat, they keep me safe in the saddle, and not wasting energie, no stress on the back too much. It comes to a correct fit overall. And as for bars and how to put hands, I think one just has to like it themselves. I can see in why people think it is hypes or marketing, might even be true. Yet I tested a lot of stuff also the bars shown, to some degree, as for form and setup. Just found that for my use and person, and body, drop bars make me feel sitting too low, and they hurt my back, make me feel less in control of my bikes. So I kept it with my extra width and rises, and add a variety on end bars and extra bars to hand me some extra grip possibilities to play with on the go. And well, at some point...I stopped testing more of them, since I am very happy with the setup I have. I don't mind a busy cockpit as long as it's useful and not just junk. I also make sure taking aluminium bars, and not specifically carbon ones, since well...I rather bend one back in shape, than needing to do with half a bar,...when that happens. Just with every new bike, I use newer models of the same is actually how I roll. I just added a head stem that is adjustable with two instead of one bending mechanism, and XLC branded one, and it is heavenly. Specially getting a bit older now, I try to save my back as long as possible. This way I created my perfect fit MTB bikes. It's just a personal thing I guess, and trying but also personalizing helps for sure. It sure costs a bit, but it is also surely my best of all my hobbies. Riding and adapting and pimping my MTB's I love it! Knock on wood! Good luck and thank you for your awesome videos! Stem: XLC Comp head stem A-Head 1 1/8" Ø31.8mm 100mm - Black Bar: XLC All MTN Riser MTB Stuur Ø31.8mm 78cm - Black For my downhillers I use a max of 72 cm widths on bars, and no adjustable stem, just short stems, max 4.5 cm. I use aluminium since I rather risk bending a bar back, than breaking and loosing it. The thickness of the pipe walls is important, the aluminium grade is important (recycled is better, gold alu) and I like these on down hilling to be extra thick so 35mm least.
im looking into a gravel bike setup, looking at a salsa journeyer now. it has a mid width drop bar now. the bar 7:40 the (perseverance adventure bar ) i had to look it up, has my attention. any experience with a bar like that?
Super interesting video. I’m now trying to make changes to an late 90s Terry classic steel framed touring bike. I’m super committed to it tho I know I’ll prob go for something more modern eventually. It has a 24” front tire (Terrys early solution for petite female riders) and a long quill stem so I’m trying to sort out reach issues and going for a wider bar. (The one it came with is a 36 or 38 if it’s a millimeter). Would love your ideas on making that bike ride with a bit more comfort/stability. It’s such a beautiful triple butted steel frame from Japan and campy parts - just can’t let this bike go into retirement.
I used to work at a shop that sold Terry's '99-00 and the Terry drop bars from that era typically had a little dimple in the hooks of the drops which reduced the reach to the brake levers. It was a cool feature for riders with small hands. I don't think that any bars currently on the market have a similar feature for small hands. This might or might not be great for you. Terry's had extra short top tubes plus the high rise short reach stems which a number of women complained about being too short for them. For the riders that required a bike with a super compact cockpit and such those Terry's were the ticket.
Surly Corner bars ha e been the biggest game changer for me with longer rides. Flat bars weren't cutting it and switching to dropbar groupset would have not made sense financially.
I personally feel that there's a correlation between bar width and tire width. One reason is where the tire width gets bigger, the riding gravitates more to off-road usage where you can take advantage of the better stability and leverage. Personally, if the tire width is somewhere around 50mm or wider, I wouldn't go any narrower than 46cm. On the other end of the spectrum, I feel like 44cm is a good place to be for road as road tires have typically gotten wider, and I believe most people are on 28s, but I think the quality of the tarmac you typically ride matters too. I personally ride pretty rough backroads, cobbles and even some gravel on my road bike that's spec'd with 30c tires. To me, when you have rough roads or cobbles, 40cm and 42cm just make things a bit harder to deal with when it get rough. BIke fit matters, but I'd say unless the fitter is truly worth their salt, they're going to rely on the algorthm for their fit system, and gravel biking, bikepacking with wider stances don't really work with many fit systems.
I just built up a new custom Manzanita hardtail with Stooge Moto Bars with a 17° sweep and 35mm rise and really like them, and they're a POUND lighter than the Moloko bars! I also installed a PNW suspension dropper and really like that so far, but adjusting the pressure is TOUCHY!
Careful with believing the wide bar hype. Its definitely not for everyone. Wide compact bars gave me neck and wrist discomfort. Ive tried a few sizes and never felt comfortable, even tried shorter stems, i REALLY wanted to believe the hype. Ultimately i gave up and im infinitely more comfortable on 38-40cm at the hoods.
9:00 I've tried suspension seatpost and it wise to use them in bicycles with rigid rear triangle. Even on roadbikes and even if You ride only on roads with good pavements. Your ass and back be pleased even if You already have comfy saddle. However! Saddles with inbuild suspension or how it called right on english are better, but unfortunately good saddles with suspensions nowadays make only Brooks and they are same price as adequate suspension seatposts in the end. At least for commuting/tracking. Also there are seatposts with telescopic suspension... Just don't. Don't even look in thier way.
I started upgrading my bikes when cyclists were arguing about those damn 29er's. As an older guy I've realized that all those crazy things you do as a young man will come due when you get older. So for me it's all about comfort and safety.
Yep, I tried a Jones H-Bar on a Ti hard tail and it still bugged my old hands and arm injuries after two hours. Thumbs turned inward with overhand grip for hours hurts. I returned to a rigid steel mountain bike with drop bars (Cow Chippers) and it is more comfortable. Brooks B-17 user for 40 years. Steel frame and fork, Black Mountain Cycles La Cabra.
I’ve ridden 42cm drops all my life and was ready to purchase wide drops when I acquired a fat tyred drop bar bike... but it turns out the 44cm drops that it came with ride perfectly.
My hands can not take flatbars. I ride flat bars grabbing the very end of the bar in my palm with thumb pointing forward. But this is not I deal so I don't have flat bars on my own bikes. I start having pains in my wrists or elbows if I ride flat bars. Thank you Jones for the loop-bar!
There are so many over-generalisations spoken about carbon fibre verses alu, ti and even steel: I've used 2 CF MTB handlebars from top brands that were impressively light but also super stiff and uncomfortable, so much so that I changed back to alu. I've also had 3 CF seatposts, one of which was really compliant that I still use and 1 was again super stiff both from the same high end brand. Speaking as someone that works with these material in Formula 1 it seems to me that the material used is not the thing that determines the stiffness characteristics of the component made with it.
A lot if not most of this individual product evaluation (voting) is likely done without ever having used these different products. Though it does provide you and your business with an additional activity.
I had a Hite-Rite on my Muddy Fox Courier BITD, nice and simple device. Roadies with carbon wheels sound like a slow car and their wheels rumble like there’s something loose when they pass me on the road. Carbon is possibly the new Titanium for the 21st century. Discuss.
Someone gifted me an ultrawide flatbar and I decided to see what was going on since so many geared out riders pour down the flow trail nearby. I honestly thought it was ridiculous and when you have any traffic in opposite directions it does create another thing to look out for. I put it on my full suspension trail bike and it has not come off. It still feels weird but I love thhe leverage for standing up and minute control. But it still feels weird and I have drilled a couple times in places I wouldnt so I am not dialed in. But this was how it started back in the days on my klunker or even moto. I am still unsure but its primo for flowy stuff. Might bring it in a little. It really affects the ride for me in places I dont expect . But maybe this one time I will let the industry off the hook for the incessant shillery.
All of these are solid to me. Then again, I like most of the new things coming out even if its not perfect for my use needs. I am interested in seeing how things progress in mixed materials space. As you say, no material is perfect. But with brands like Rodeo Labs and Quark mixing up things with combinations of carbon and steel or Ti, I think we will see some really interesting frames in the future. As for bars, haven't had the $$$ to try a carbon bar. I see nothing wrong with it though. And if we're being honest, none of us are actually respecting the engineering reqs on metal bars. I still scratch my head as to why a Ti handlebar can come with a recommended 3 year replace cycle. Nah, at that cost, if its not broken in-two, I'm still using it.
@@michaelrowave There's this thing called the internet where you can find all sorts of things like product documents from manufacturers to materials tolerances from suppliers.
@@mattcardarelli Golf is such a strange activity to me. When I lived in Japan, literally every taxi had some clubs in the trunk and all the cabbies would be lined up at 2am swinging at imaginary balls while waiting on wakame. I have to imagine in that environment they also had some in-group mess about who had the nicest clubs. Then again, coworkers don't understand my interest in bikes so 🤷 But I've never owned anything other than steel or aluminum until my first carbon fork I got 2nd hand last month.
What about lock innovation for MTBs wit a suspension fork? How to lock your bike without having to carry a lock or two that or extra wire that weighs 3 kilos. It takes to long to lock and is often a hassle. Just go to the store, lock your bike, 5-7 minutes:(. How do you handle that best?
i once used on-one midge bars, forget how wide they are but made the mistake of setting them the same height as all my other bars and MAN did I pay the price! Deep sharp pain between the shoulders at the base of the neck after a few months,something to do with the widwe angle between the neck and shoulder blades. Went back to normal drops and the pain went away...like the bars...never again!
As someone who's bike is a 2012 and finally got a new bike. I can say without doubt that the new geo is so much better. My new bike is lower, longer and slacker, yet it also rides so much better.
The trend of mountain bikes become longer, lower and slacker with wider bars and bigger reach numbers makes PERFECT sense for mountain biking, but I think it becomes more complicated for bikepacking where all-day comfort and load-carrying ability becomes a factor..... You're probably not going to bikepack down A-Line. 😅 Jones Bikes certainly buck the trend in that regard!
I don't have the same positive experience with dropper posts. Maybe it's how I ride or when I learned. I raced XC mountain bikes through the 90s and into the early 2000s. There were no droppers then so I had no opinion, I just learned to cope with a static saddle height. I've tried the droppers but to me it seems like it's about 10% effective in making my life better at the cost of being heavier and more complicated. I'll try it again for sure, I think it could be really useful for winter fat biking. Not a naysayer, if it works for you great. So far it is underwhelming for me, anyone else have this experience?
I'm with you on this. Still I replaced the dropper that came on my new bike with a fox transfer SL since it's ultra light and I would have a dropper for those rare times I wish I had one.
As someone with short limbs I prefer short reach. There should be more room for bike fit. If the stem is already 30mm I can not make it any shorter. Just buy a smaller frame and use long seatpost. I don't think that is a good solution.
Worthy considerations. Much has changed and will continue to change. Something which needs to change is the identification of bicycles. I say, microchip them all. Even the more expensive parts. And find a way to geolocate them. I like 529 garage and Bike Index.
@@oldanslo neither do I, but at least a microchip places an invisible number to your bike, which is traceable back to you. So if your bike is stolen, you have proof it is yours. If your bike is used in a crime, I understand your reluctance. I would not want to be blamed for something I did not do. As far as geotracing, anytime you want to be in stealth mode, turn it off. Currently I know of only one system small enough to fit inside a bike, and that bike must be carbon fiber. So we may be years off in that.
Well this is not a problem in countries such as Japan, maybe the focus should be on why people steal and what society does with these people. Yes I have had a bike stolen and it is not a nice feeling to say the least.
Gonna say the Maverick Speedball dropper came long before Crank Brothers (CB adopted and/or bought Maverick's technology, IIRC) and maybe even Gravity Dropper.
Yeah, maybe so. It seemed like it was a race and because of that, many of of them were rushed to market. That said, the Gravity Dropper was released in 2003, and had a reputation for being great. BikeRumor shared this regarding Kind Shock which is pretty neat: www.bikeradar.com/features/is-this-the-worlds-first-dropper-post/#:~:text=Back%20in%201998%2C%20Kind%20Shock,future%20efforts%20in%20the%20field.
Anyone who says Suspension stems and seatposts are hype havn't ridden with a good one. Anyone who thinks dropper posts are hype havn't ridden with one or go very slow on decents. Well made Carbon rims are unquestionably stronger than any ally rims. Don't personally see any benefit to drop bars wider than 48cm. One of the benefits of modern geo not mentioned is the chances of toe overlap with the front wheel is reduced.
My generic road bike has very short chain stays. (700 tire almost touches the seat tube.) Mystery. Not appreciated. Main triangle is fine on this one, but if the short stays are for ride or handling... I can't see it. Maybe it would be a dream come true for somebody wanting a short-wheelbase gravel runner?
The wide bar, narrow bar, wide bar pendulum keeps swinging. A lot of the people who are running 30" or wider bars now all cut their old bars down narrower than the width of their bb + cranks + pedals back in the early 2000s. Sanity lives somewhere a few inches more than your shoulder width. They had great reasons why cutting MTB flat bars down to 20" was going to let riders slip through traffic in the city and trees in the woods.
Bars are such a touchy subject. Even more absurd swing between trends can be seen with fixie community (style influences them much more). Fixie bros have been arguing from 300mm bars to 800mm in about a decade en masse while keeping the same argument "it's more comfortable, bro!". There are tons of arguments for any style of bar and trends really set in.
Having no knowledge of bikes I found myself needing a solution to fitness as old injuries caught up with old age. In fact still consider most cyclists little more than Lycra terrorists. Anyway, needed to think about cycling 12 miles plus as means to keep fit. Tried a mountain bike, striaght handlebars, very comfortable, off road brilliant, on road too slow. Tried a couple of gravel bikes, helped by this channel by the way, and both gave me shoulder and chest pain after about 10 miles, simply cramping up. Ended up fitting Redshift and problem solved. Why did I not seek "expert" guidance? I did and was struck by the often myopic even arrogant views held by these experts.
There is this thing called bike fitting and it's not there by accident. 🤣 Bar width is part of it so yes, relatively to your anatomy, handlebar width will cause pain if you focus only on control and hype.
Cockpit design surely evolved to the better (longer headtube, shorter stem, wider bar). I'm still waiting for the person/situation that will convince me about the need of a dropper. Though way in my fifties I still manage to shove my a**e behind the saddle, I'm still dancing with the frame and not hanging in it like a sack of potatoes. Carbon? - Still refusing to ride plastics, vehemently. - My choice: good old steel. Maybe I'll give in to the titanium hype when a decent opportunity comes along, an offer I can't refuse. Half a century of riding my bikes distilled an essence of "No Fuss!", means rigid steel frame, reliability over hype, keeping things simple, thriving on decades old knowledge. Notable exeption: the drive train. - I ride Rohloff and I'll give the Gates Drive in combination with maybe even a Pinion gear box a try. Oh, yes, and the e-bike... 😏
I love big wide bars. On my MTB and gravel bike. Narrow bars aren’t an option for those of us who are more muscular, or just wider, or even just taller! I couldn’t comfortably go narrower than 760mm on my MTB or 520mm to the hoods on my gravel bike.
Recently went up from 800mm to 830mm on my daily driver. Thought it would be too much. But I like it. I'm not even big. Going back to 420mm on my road bike on weekends just feels all sorts of strange. Now need to decide what to put on my gravel build. Def larger than 420, but not sure I should go all out on a bike I'd like to also do some small local races with.
only one comment regarding carbon .......when you have a fail (cracks ) in carbon ....MAJORITY are catastrophically ..whit alloy or steel... i can show you cracks that let me to get down from that mountain with confidence .....and an alloy/steel can be repair ....carbon is waist ....good video mate ME learn some about handle bars today
Shock absorbing seat posts, though good for what they do, do not account for the extra compensation the rider does on their knees. Another innovation that creates more problems than it fixes. Simple solution; you want more shock absorption? Use a fatter tire.
80 cm bars are ridicolous and dangerous in the city, on a trail with trees and bushes that can hit your bar and you will go flying. MTB bikes always come with flat bars, to low that are useless for normal riders. Why not deliver bikes with normal bars?😢
I know I'm being irrational, but I just never feel like I could trust carbon components, especially if I'm going any distance out away from cities. I'm all about the steel
Carbon is fine until it gets dinged at all. Guess who seems to always watch his bike topple over and get nicked? It would always be a concern. I have wanted carbon fork for my road bike but I worry too mch.
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This video was supported by Salsa Cycles. Learn more about Salsa Cycles and the Journeyer here: www.salsacycles.com/bikes/road/journeyer?.com&
I’m still surprised that in the conversation about wide bars, this review and others tend only to focus on terrain/maneuverability, and not on bike fit or the human bodies we’re pairing with these parts.
While I think having the woodchipper-esque flair is great, and having wider drop bars as a possibility is great, ultimately the bars have to work for the body they’re paired with. For me, 40cm cowchippers won by keeping my arms in a direct line from my body. Hypermobility issues mean that an ultrawide bar = wrists dipping inwards = pain.
I guess what I’m saying is, people should ultimately pick what’s comfortable over what’s trendy. Sometimes, those things align, othertimes, not. Thanks, Neil!
I lucked out, I have wide shoulders so a 48cm flare bar puts the hoods pretty much directly lined up; I can be comfortable and trendy, lol.
I agree 100%. I have never understood the wide bar trend. I get pains to my shoulders if the bar is too wide. I ride a 660mm Jones, a 590mm Jones and a ~380mm Bullhorn bars.
Bars can be too wide. If you're making tight turns and bars are too wide you are reaching into next week to keep fingers on brakes.
I agree, comfort is no.1 with me also. I'm always surprised by the need for increased leverage as reasoning for wide bars. Although a wider bar does increase leverage, I've never had a problem steering my bike.
Years ago, due to an auto accident, I had 2 vertebrae in my neck fused. Consequently, I find drop bars impossible and flat mtb bars very uncomfortable due to limited range of motion . The saving grace for me is the Jones H Bar. I have a variation of this bar on all my bikes. I absolutely love this bar. I had to lengthen cables/hoses on most of them to accommodate this bar.
I have the Cane Creek Thudbuster on my newest hard tail bike and I have noticed more comfort for longer rides with this seat post. Different people have different needs for a multitude of reasons.....Thank God for all of the different accessories available to customize your rig. Everyone has a different reason for being in the saddle and different expectations from that experience. I think everyone who watches this vid will agree that being able to ride is a good thing. Thanks for sharing.
Exactly, great contribution
Amy, I just got around to watching this and what can I say? An incredible ride to get through it with all that pain. Such an honest account of the ride; you really capture what it's like to experience the rollercoaster of the highs and lows of long distance cycling. Chapeau to you and Kyle!
Wasn't the On-One Midge wider than the Salsa Woodchipper and available a few years earlier? I built my first generation Fargo with one back then. That was a great bike.
Oh, I was not referring to it being any narrower than the woodchipper, I was just saying the widest offering in the woodchipper was 46cm. If someone knows more about the Midge, I would love to hear about it, I didn't get to chat with anyone regarding that bar, but i'm pretty sure it came out after the WTB/Specialized RM2.
I found the Surly Moloko bars really need to be at the perfect angle, but once I found the sweet spot and added the Ergon GC-1 grips for alt bars it's amazing!
Could not say it otherwise. Agreed !
The Ergon grips really do it for me. Once I installed a pair and adjusted them to fit me, I never suffered from carpal tunnel or are hands ever again. I have these grips on ALL my bikes, even on my bikepacking bike that has a Jones Bar fitted.
I like my 38cm dropbars (like my shoulderbone width) with 6° flare. My 43mm tires limit the terrain I am riding, not my handlebars. However the comfort gain on long distances is amazing.
How small are you? 38cm... FML thats my nipple width....
@@playmoreguitar5393 not small, but aerodynamic :D I am 1,85 m tall, but have narrow shoulders
I agree. Unless the bike is designed around wide drop bars, the compromise in comfort from wider bars really isn't worth it.
@@stuartdilts2729 Why not ride normal flat bars then and save tons of money?
Wandered to your channel exploring hiw to make the ultimate custom Bromton - hoping to experiment w/ completely letting go of car ownershp so every mod counts - appreciate the thorough approach while also keeping your vibe fun
Good information on a variety of subjects I'm interested in. Thank you.
BTW, I'm one of those interested in a 200 mm dropper post as I can no longer swing my leg over my seat because of a permanent injury. I use the quick release to raise and lower my seat as I get on and off my bike so I'm definitely going to get a dropper soon.
The wide drops like the On One Midge Bars were available well before the Salsa Cow chippers, I had some on my early touring bikes in the oughts
This series was great and I'm glad I participated in the survey. My humble opinion mimicks yours and I truly believe carbon really comes into it's own when it's "cantilevered". The reason I've put quotations on this term is the fact the orientation of these components does not fall into the true structural engineering definition of a horizontal load bearing overhang. We saw this early on with the introduction of carbon forks and some carbon seatposts on even the most budget friendly aluminum frames. I've simply followed this line of logic by adding more carbon components on my aluminum beater gravel bike and couldn't be happier with the results. Happier to the point where I added carbon components to my budget carbon road bike and...wow! Carbon frames?...not really impressed, except for acceleration. But carbon "weight bearing" components?...you betcha!
I measure Real Reach a little differently, basically finding "Arm Reach" to the grips as the hypotenuse of a triangle. For drop bars as an example: Frame Reach+ Actual Stem length (factoring in angle) + bar reach as one leg; half the width of the bars as the other leg and then find the hypotenuse. I call that arm reach and it helps when trying drastically different bar/stem combos.
Smart!
Search RAD, that's the new measurement for reach/stack to grips
What about reach to get to the brakes on droppers? I feel like that the real reach measure. Depth of dropper plus tube and plus stem.
Hmmm well I use MTB riser bars minimally 5 cm rise, and 78 cm width. (I am 6.8 nearly 6.9 Ft, so it fits me...) For me it is personal and heard to beat, they keep me safe in the saddle, and not wasting energie, no stress on the back too much. It comes to a correct fit overall. And as for bars and how to put hands, I think one just has to like it themselves. I can see in why people think it is hypes or marketing, might even be true. Yet I tested a lot of stuff also the bars shown, to some degree, as for form and setup.
Just found that for my use and person, and body, drop bars make me feel sitting too low, and they hurt my back, make me feel less in control of my bikes. So I kept it with my extra width and rises, and add a variety on end bars and extra bars to hand me some extra grip possibilities to play with on the go. And well, at some point...I stopped testing more of them, since I am very happy with the setup I have. I don't mind a busy cockpit as long as it's useful and not just junk. I also make sure taking aluminium bars, and not specifically carbon ones, since well...I rather bend one back in shape, than needing to do with half a bar,...when that happens. Just with every new bike, I use newer models of the same is actually how I roll. I just added a head stem that is adjustable with two instead of one bending mechanism, and XLC branded one, and it is heavenly.
Specially getting a bit older now, I try to save my back as long as possible. This way I created my perfect fit MTB bikes. It's just a personal thing I guess, and trying but also personalizing helps for sure. It sure costs a bit, but it is also surely my best of all my hobbies. Riding and adapting and pimping my MTB's I love it!
Knock on wood! Good luck and thank you for your awesome videos!
Stem: XLC Comp head stem A-Head 1 1/8" Ø31.8mm 100mm - Black
Bar: XLC All MTN Riser MTB Stuur Ø31.8mm 78cm - Black
For my downhillers I use a max of 72 cm widths on bars, and no adjustable stem, just short stems, max 4.5 cm. I use aluminium since I rather risk bending a bar back, than breaking and loosing it. The thickness of the pipe walls is important, the aluminium grade is important (recycled is better, gold alu) and I like these on down hilling to be extra thick so 35mm least.
im looking into a gravel bike setup, looking at a salsa journeyer now. it has a mid width drop bar now. the bar 7:40 the (perseverance adventure bar ) i had to look it up, has my attention. any experience with a bar like that?
Do you typically go to a shorter stem when you go to ultra wide bars to compensate for the fact the added width would in effect lengthen the reach?
yes, you got it, good to couple those upgrades together
Super interesting video. I’m now trying to make changes to an late 90s Terry classic steel framed touring bike. I’m super committed to it tho I know I’ll prob go for something more modern eventually. It has a 24” front tire (Terrys early solution for petite female riders) and a long quill stem so I’m trying to sort out reach issues and going for a wider bar. (The one it came with is a 36 or 38 if it’s a millimeter). Would love your ideas on making that bike ride with a bit more comfort/stability. It’s such a beautiful triple butted steel frame from Japan and campy parts - just can’t let this bike go into retirement.
I used to work at a shop that sold Terry's '99-00 and the Terry drop bars from that era typically had a little dimple in the hooks of the drops which reduced the reach to the brake levers. It was a cool feature for riders with small hands. I don't think that any bars currently on the market have a similar feature for small hands. This might or might not be great for you. Terry's had extra short top tubes plus the high rise short reach stems which a number of women complained about being too short for them. For the riders that required a bike with a super compact cockpit and such those Terry's were the ticket.
Surly Corner bars ha e been the biggest game changer for me with longer rides. Flat bars weren't cutting it and switching to dropbar groupset would have not made sense financially.
I personally feel that there's a correlation between bar width and tire width.
One reason is where the tire width gets bigger, the riding gravitates more to off-road usage where you can take advantage of the better stability and leverage.
Personally, if the tire width is somewhere around 50mm or wider, I wouldn't go any narrower than 46cm.
On the other end of the spectrum, I feel like 44cm is a good place to be for road as road tires have typically gotten wider, and I believe most people are on 28s, but I think the quality of the tarmac you typically ride matters too. I personally ride pretty rough backroads, cobbles and even some gravel on my road bike that's spec'd with 30c tires. To me, when you have rough roads or cobbles, 40cm and 42cm just make things a bit harder to deal with when it get rough.
BIke fit matters, but I'd say unless the fitter is truly worth their salt, they're going to rely on the algorthm for their fit system, and gravel biking, bikepacking with wider stances don't really work with many fit systems.
I just built up a new custom Manzanita hardtail with Stooge Moto Bars with a 17° sweep and 35mm rise and really like them, and they're a POUND lighter than the Moloko bars! I also installed a PNW suspension dropper and really like that so far, but adjusting the pressure is TOUCHY!
Great content in this series, thank you I am greatful for your channel.
Careful with believing the wide bar hype. Its definitely not for everyone. Wide compact bars gave me neck and wrist discomfort. Ive tried a few sizes and never felt comfortable, even tried shorter stems, i REALLY wanted to believe the hype. Ultimately i gave up and im infinitely more comfortable on 38-40cm at the hoods.
I know people in your boat, I can understand that it's certainly not for everyone.
I’m running enve bars that are 35 at the hoods 40 in the drops
9:00 I've tried suspension seatpost and it wise to use them in bicycles with rigid rear triangle. Even on roadbikes and even if You ride only on roads with good pavements. Your ass and back be pleased even if You already have comfy saddle. However! Saddles with inbuild suspension or how it called right on english are better, but unfortunately good saddles with suspensions nowadays make only Brooks and they are same price as adequate suspension seatposts in the end. At least for commuting/tracking. Also there are seatposts with telescopic suspension... Just don't. Don't even look in thier way.
I started upgrading my bikes when cyclists were arguing about those damn 29er's. As an older guy I've realized that all those crazy things you do as a young man will come due when you get older. So for me it's all about comfort and safety.
Yep, I tried a Jones H-Bar on a Ti hard tail and it still bugged my old hands and arm injuries after two hours. Thumbs turned inward with overhand grip for hours hurts. I returned to a rigid steel mountain bike with drop bars (Cow Chippers) and it is more comfortable. Brooks B-17 user for 40 years. Steel frame and fork, Black Mountain Cycles La Cabra.
I’ve ridden 42cm drops all my life and was ready to purchase wide drops when I acquired a fat tyred drop bar bike... but it turns out the 44cm drops that it came with ride perfectly.
My hands can not take flatbars. I ride flat bars grabbing the very end of the bar in my palm with thumb pointing forward. But this is not I deal so I don't have flat bars on my own bikes. I start having pains in my wrists or elbows if I ride flat bars. Thank you Jones for the loop-bar!
There are so many over-generalisations spoken about carbon fibre verses alu, ti and even steel: I've used 2 CF MTB handlebars from top brands that were impressively light but also super stiff and uncomfortable, so much so that I changed back to alu. I've also had 3 CF seatposts, one of which was really compliant that I still use and 1 was again super stiff both from the same high end brand. Speaking as someone that works with these material in Formula 1 it seems to me that the material used is not the thing that determines the stiffness characteristics of the component made with it.
What is the black bike seen in this video?
Great video, what alt bar model is the one at 7'45"?
Wren Perseverance Adventure bar
A lot if not most of this individual product evaluation (voting) is likely done without ever having used these different products.
Though it does provide you and your business with an additional activity.
I had a Hite-Rite on my Muddy Fox Courier BITD, nice and simple device. Roadies with carbon wheels sound like a slow car and their wheels rumble like there’s something loose when they pass me on the road. Carbon is possibly the new Titanium for the 21st century. Discuss.
Someone gifted me an ultrawide flatbar and I decided to see what was going on since so many geared out riders pour down the flow trail nearby. I honestly thought it was ridiculous and when you have any traffic in opposite directions it does create another thing to look out for. I put it on my full suspension trail bike and it has not come off. It still feels weird but I love thhe leverage for standing up and minute control. But it still feels weird and I have drilled a couple times in places I wouldnt so I am not dialed in. But this was how it started back in the days on my klunker or even moto. I am still unsure but its primo for flowy stuff. Might bring it in a little. It really affects the ride for me in places I dont expect . But maybe this one time I will let the industry off the hook for the incessant shillery.
All of these are solid to me. Then again, I like most of the new things coming out even if its not perfect for my use needs. I am interested in seeing how things progress in mixed materials space. As you say, no material is perfect. But with brands like Rodeo Labs and Quark mixing up things with combinations of carbon and steel or Ti, I think we will see some really interesting frames in the future. As for bars, haven't had the $$$ to try a carbon bar. I see nothing wrong with it though. And if we're being honest, none of us are actually respecting the engineering reqs on metal bars. I still scratch my head as to why a Ti handlebar can come with a recommended 3 year replace cycle. Nah, at that cost, if its not broken in-two, I'm still using it.
Bars come with manuals?
@@michaelrowave There's this thing called the internet where you can find all sorts of things like product documents from manufacturers to materials tolerances from suppliers.
There’s people that have used and abused titanium golf club heads for decades. I agree
@@mattcardarelli Golf is such a strange activity to me. When I lived in Japan, literally every taxi had some clubs in the trunk and all the cabbies would be lined up at 2am swinging at imaginary balls while waiting on wakame. I have to imagine in that environment they also had some in-group mess about who had the nicest clubs. Then again, coworkers don't understand my interest in bikes so 🤷 But I've never owned anything other than steel or aluminum until my first carbon fork I got 2nd hand last month.
I love my oneup dropper on my Karate Monkey. I run a rack on the back and no worries about seatbag waggle, dangle or rub.
Ive heard really good things about one-up droppers, I might need to one them this upcoming year.
What about lock innovation for MTBs wit a suspension fork? How to lock your bike without having to carry a lock or two that or extra wire that weighs 3 kilos. It takes to long to lock and is often a hassle. Just go to the store, lock your bike, 5-7 minutes:(. How do you handle that best?
Totally off topic. But I really would love to know how you made it bought your rainbow wheels
they are Industry Nine wheels. industrynine.com/
Very INFORMATIVE! 💯 Thank you 😎
Will we have even longer toptubes and reverse stems in another decade?
LOL, only time will tell.
i once used on-one midge bars, forget how wide they are but made the mistake of setting them the same height as all my other bars and MAN did I pay the price! Deep sharp pain between the shoulders at the base of the neck after a few months,something to do with the widwe angle between the neck and shoulder blades. Went back to normal drops and the pain went away...like the bars...never again!
As someone who's bike is a 2012 and finally got a new bike. I can say without doubt that the new geo is so much better. My new bike is lower, longer and slacker, yet it also rides so much better.
I just love the fact that he used the word sweatfest
i've found in every instance aluminum rims build up noticeably easier than carbon rims.
The trend of mountain bikes become longer, lower and slacker with wider bars and bigger reach numbers makes PERFECT sense for mountain biking, but I think it becomes more complicated for bikepacking where all-day comfort and load-carrying ability becomes a factor..... You're probably not going to bikepack down A-Line. 😅
Jones Bikes certainly buck the trend in that regard!
Longer is just for the attack position. The old position was to hang your nuts over the rear wheel
Time for a A-Line bike packing trip lol
As far as bars go..... It is the same as seats. The more choices, the better. Everybody and every task is built different.
I don't have the same positive experience with dropper posts. Maybe it's how I ride or when I learned. I raced XC mountain bikes through the 90s and into the early 2000s. There were no droppers then so I had no opinion, I just learned to cope with a static saddle height. I've tried the droppers but to me it seems like it's about 10% effective in making my life better at the cost of being heavier and more complicated. I'll try it again for sure, I think it could be really useful for winter fat biking. Not a naysayer, if it works for you great. So far it is underwhelming for me, anyone else have this experience?
I'm with you on this. Still I replaced the dropper that came on my new bike with a fox transfer SL since it's ultra light and I would have a dropper for those rare times I wish I had one.
As someone with short limbs I prefer short reach. There should be more room for bike fit. If the stem is already 30mm I can not make it any shorter. Just buy a smaller frame and use long seatpost. I don't think that is a good solution.
Worthy considerations. Much has changed and will continue to change. Something which needs to change is the identification of bicycles. I say, microchip them all. Even the more expensive parts. And find a way to geolocate them. I like 529 garage and Bike Index.
I don't want to be tracked every time I ride my bike.
@@oldanslo neither do I, but at least a microchip places an invisible number to your bike, which is traceable back to you. So if your bike is stolen, you have proof it is yours. If your bike is used in a crime, I understand your reluctance. I would not want to be blamed for something I did not do. As far as geotracing, anytime you want to be in stealth mode, turn it off. Currently I know of only one system small enough to fit inside a bike, and that bike must be carbon fiber. So we may be years off in that.
Well this is not a problem in countries such as Japan, maybe the focus should be on why people steal and what society does with these people. Yes I have had a bike stolen and it is not a nice feeling to say the least.
All helpful info. Thank you.
Longer stem makes for less twitchy steering. More upright positioning is better for everything except wind and racing.
I like these to different extents depending if I am on my gravel or my mountain bike.
Gonna say the Maverick Speedball dropper came long before Crank Brothers (CB adopted and/or bought Maverick's technology, IIRC) and maybe even Gravity Dropper.
Yeah, maybe so. It seemed like it was a race and because of that, many of of them were rushed to market. That said, the Gravity Dropper was released in 2003, and had a reputation for being great. BikeRumor shared this regarding Kind Shock which is pretty neat: www.bikeradar.com/features/is-this-the-worlds-first-dropper-post/#:~:text=Back%20in%201998%2C%20Kind%20Shock,future%20efforts%20in%20the%20field.
Tnx for the Info...
All results as expected 🧐
Interesting results in this one for sure.
thank you
Anyone who says Suspension stems and seatposts are hype havn't ridden with a good one. Anyone who thinks dropper posts are hype havn't ridden with one or go very slow on decents. Well made Carbon rims are unquestionably stronger than any ally rims. Don't personally see any benefit to drop bars wider than 48cm. One of the benefits of modern geo not mentioned is the chances of toe overlap with the front wheel is reduced.
Great video
My generic road bike has very short chain stays. (700 tire almost touches the seat tube.) Mystery. Not appreciated. Main triangle is fine on this one, but if the short stays are for ride or handling... I can't see it. Maybe it would be a dream come true for somebody wanting a short-wheelbase gravel runner?
@13:54 Neil’s figures don’t match the pie chart’s 😮
Ah, yep, my notes had a 7 instead of 4, sorry about that. The pie chart is accurate.
The wide bar, narrow bar, wide bar pendulum keeps swinging. A lot of the people who are running 30" or wider bars now all cut their old bars down narrower than the width of their bb + cranks + pedals back in the early 2000s. Sanity lives somewhere a few inches more than your shoulder width.
They had great reasons why cutting MTB flat bars down to 20" was going to let riders slip through traffic in the city and trees in the woods.
Bars are such a touchy subject. Even more absurd swing between trends can be seen with fixie community (style influences them much more). Fixie bros have been arguing from 300mm bars to 800mm in about a decade en masse while keeping the same argument "it's more comfortable, bro!". There are tons of arguments for any style of bar and trends really set in.
Your damn imperial measurements are killing me. The king is dead, the empire has fallen
Give me oldskool flat bars & bar ends & slam em
Having no knowledge of bikes I found myself needing a solution to fitness as old injuries caught up with old age. In fact still consider most cyclists little more than Lycra terrorists.
Anyway, needed to think about cycling 12 miles plus as means to keep fit. Tried a mountain bike, striaght handlebars, very comfortable, off road brilliant, on road too slow. Tried a couple of gravel bikes, helped by this channel by the way, and both gave me shoulder and chest pain after about 10 miles, simply cramping up. Ended up fitting Redshift and problem solved.
Why did I not seek "expert" guidance? I did and was struck by the often myopic even arrogant views held by these experts.
There is this thing called bike fitting and it's not there by accident. 🤣 Bar width is part of it so yes, relatively to your anatomy, handlebar width will cause pain if you focus only on control and hype.
I would love a jones bar in 760mm
Cockpit design surely evolved to the better (longer headtube, shorter stem, wider bar).
I'm still waiting for the person/situation that will convince me about the need of a dropper. Though way in my fifties I still manage to shove my a**e behind the saddle, I'm still dancing with the frame and not hanging in it like a sack of potatoes.
Carbon? - Still refusing to ride plastics, vehemently. - My choice: good old steel. Maybe I'll give in to the titanium hype when a decent opportunity comes along, an offer I can't refuse.
Half a century of riding my bikes distilled an essence of "No Fuss!", means rigid steel frame, reliability over hype, keeping things simple, thriving on decades old knowledge.
Notable exeption: the drive train. - I ride Rohloff and I'll give the Gates Drive in combination with maybe even a Pinion gear box a try.
Oh, yes, and the e-bike... 😏
I love my surly open bar
I love big wide bars. On my MTB and gravel bike. Narrow bars aren’t an option for those of us who are more muscular, or just wider, or even just taller!
I couldn’t comfortably go narrower than 760mm on my MTB or 520mm to the hoods on my gravel bike.
Recently went up from 800mm to 830mm on my daily driver. Thought it would be too much. But I like it. I'm not even big. Going back to 420mm on my road bike on weekends just feels all sorts of strange. Now need to decide what to put on my gravel build. Def larger than 420, but not sure I should go all out on a bike I'd like to also do some small local races with.
Ive been riding mtb 30 years. Ive settled on 680mm. Wide does nothing for me but clip trees.
I like your videos. You know your onions
only one comment regarding carbon .......when you have a fail (cracks ) in carbon ....MAJORITY are catastrophically ..whit alloy or steel... i can show you cracks that let me to get down from that mountain with confidence .....and an alloy/steel can be repair ....carbon is waist ....good video mate ME learn some about handle bars today
Shock absorbing seat posts, though good for what they do, do not account for the extra compensation the rider does on their knees. Another innovation that creates more problems than it fixes. Simple solution; you want more shock absorption? Use a fatter tire.
Differ inch ate a caterpillar, not!
The perceived width of the bars will depend upon how wide the shoulders of the rider are,
I suppose?🤷🏼♂️ eh¿
[✔] carbon bars (comfort)
wide bars flaired for more room for front pack roll
Me me like wide bars.
Ummmmm I've got butterfly bars, I don't think I can comment aha
oh great, now I 'm considering carbon rims for my next built (wallet does not agree!)
80 cm bars are ridicolous and dangerous in the city, on a trail with trees and bushes that can hit your bar and you will go flying. MTB bikes always come with flat bars, to low that are useless for normal riders. Why not deliver bikes with normal bars?😢
I know I'm being irrational, but I just never feel like I could trust carbon components, especially if I'm going any distance out away from cities. I'm all about the steel
Carbon is fine until it gets dinged at all. Guess who seems to always watch his bike topple over and get nicked? It would always be a concern. I have wanted carbon fork for my road bike but I worry too mch.
Two words: carbon sucks
🚴🏼🚴🏼🚴🏼🫡