Whats the Difference Between a Victory Ship and a Liberty Ship?
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- Опубликовано: 3 апр 2023
- In this episode we're talking about the difference between victory ships and liberty ships.
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A key point with the Victory ships was they were planned to be viable as commercial ships after the war. The Liberty ships were a purely emergency measure that were expected to maybe last a few trips across the Atlantic. Of course some Liberty ships did end up having long commercial careers.
I think Aristotle Onassis had modified versions (tankers?) for his business.
An old engineer told me those Liberty ships in the later part of theyr lives were held together with paint an miles of welding. Real rustbuckets
So pure purpose build.
They need ships, they need them fast, low chances of survival due to uboot...so you build the ships just to arrive at the target and if they make it back, great, send it out again.
Actually, the Liberty ships were intended for 1 use. if they made it across with 1 load, unloaded and sank on their way back out of harbor they were considered a success. If one made 2 trips and another was sunk on its maiden voyage the 2 would average to a success.
No one was thinking about what they would do with these ships IF we won the war. We were working like hell just to produce weapons to win.
One of my grandfathers served aboard a Liberty Ship tanker delivering high octane AvGas to airfields in the Pacific islands.
He said the tools they were issued to service and perform maintenance work were all made of non-ferrous metals, usually bronze or anodized copper and aluminum, so they would not make sparks if they were dropped against equipment or the deck.
He also said that anyone caught aboard with matches, a Zippo, or cigarettes, would be court martialed and sent to naval prison for twenty years. He didn't know if that was a legit threat or not, but he said nobody aboard his tanker took the chance; and considering they were carrying thousands of gallons of high octane gasoline, he was happy nobody took the chance.
Same with LPG tankers, where the same measures are in place, just in case of leaks.
Liberty ships (EC2 class) were not tankers. There was a "Liberty Tanker (Z-ET1) however, only 18 of these were built. The most common type of tanker (with 533 built) was the T2 tanker, which didn't carry the E=Emergency designation and therefore wasn't technically a liberty ship.
@Peter T ....Kitchens dont need sparks or fire to be able to prepare food.
@@quartertwenty484 My father served on a T2 tanker right at the end of the war. Made a full circumnavigation of the globe and ran aground in Yokohama harbor. They went through a pretty severe typhoon as well, which gave him some interesting stories. Later on he worked at a shipyard that was scrapping Liberty ships. His job was to get the steam plants running so they could use the ship's own cargo derricks and pumps. He had some great stories and I wish I had gotten him to write more of them down.
The key event was more machines to produce the reduction gears for turbine plants.
The built the Liberty ships with triple expansion engines because all the gears for turbine ships were being put in combat vessels. They needed something Now rather than better later on.
They didn't overcome that bottle neck until later in the war.
that's a good point, a ship you have is worth twenty you don't have.
Yes forging the crankshafts was easy, lots of steel mills with steam hammers that can form them. To make gears you need a gear hobber, which is specialised equipment, that takes a while to make a finished gear, from a rough forged, and then machined round on a lathe, blank. The crank just needs the forging, then the large lathe, and you save a week per part, as the lathe is a lot more common, and you can turn out one crank per day, if you use all 3 shifts. Gear hobber is going to take a week even with all 3 shifts, as you have to repeat for every tooth.
As a teenager, my father worked in the Kaiser shipyards, welding Liberty ships. He told me that the ships broke in half because the hold access openings were square, which caused stress risers that became cracks. The design was changed to rounded corners, eliminating the stress risers. The original design was based on a British coal carrier.
cold weather was also involved.
I believe that they also increased the spacing of the ribs so that the ships would be more flexible in heavy seas. 🌊
Being built in 30 days with low trained workers didn’t help
There was a similar problem with the DeHavilland Comet jet airliner, where three planes crashed due to metal fatigue caused by high stresses around their square windows. The problem was solved by modified the windows to an oval shape.
Plus also not helped by the high sulphur steel they often used, which was losing tensile strength at temperatures around 0C, and the amount of contaminants varied, so some would crack, but some would not. Steel gets brittle when at low temperature, but when at normal room temperature it still passed the testing at the foundry, until they finally realised it, and started to do a second test with the sample having spent time in an ice brine bath to get it cold. More modern steels now still can have near full ductility and strength in liquid nitrogen, and a few still are capable at liquid Helium temperatures, though they get derated a lot in that application, as the welding introduces changes in the alloys.
I met a former merchant mariner that served on a victory ship called SS Arabian Victory. He certainly liked his ship and appreciated the speed.
Had a very good older friend (now long passed) who was in the Merchant Marines he told me about having to as he said "Get off and walk on water" not once but twice. He said both times were because U-boats were waiting off the US coastline. He would laugh and say "At least my 3rd ship was the lucky one for me". He was talking about having Liberty at an Italian port and of course visiting the ladies. His 18-year-old son was present and amazed that his father had done a thing like that. It had to be explained it was before he met the kid's mother and after the long haul across the Atlantic and Mediterain, sailors had certain needs....
The guns on the Liberty Ships were maned by a small Navy (as opposed to Merchant Marine) crew. My dad was the Navy officer in charge of such a crew. He made twelve round trips across the North Atlantic as well as moving materials around the Mediterranean. His ship was torpedoed once and they got it into Halifax. After the war he went on to do some important work but I believe in his mind he reached his highest purpose in life on the North Atlantic.
For many soldiers and sailors in WW2, those years were the high point of their life. Same with Vietnam. My father flew in WW2 and Vietnam. I landed in Vietnam once, so I qualify but I don't really thing it counts.
Small world. My father was also a Naval officer on an armed Victory ship, He commanded the Naval personnel who manned the guns. If I remember corre3ctly, the ship was armed wit a 3 inch gun, a 5 inch gun, and two pairs of 20mm machineguns.
The Navy Gunners were known as the Armed Guard. My Uncle was an Armed Guard on the Murmansk run.
@@davidlockwood6088
My uncle, and also a friend of mine were in the Armed Guard. My uncle served on a gun crew on one of those vessels.
I believe that the most important change from the liberties to the victories was the steam turbine propulsion. Huge speed difference. The amount of time the ship was exposed to enemy action was reduced by half!
Worked on the Jeremiah O'Brien in the gunnery department for a couple of years while in high school, was an amazing experience. I'd ruck the black powder that was used in the signal gun, and with the amount I carried over I'm fairly certain its still the powder that's used. When we tested the air systems on the 20mm's to simulate firing we'd have to call the police ahead of time as people would rightfully freak out at the sound of automatic gunfire. On Wednesdays, the galley would cook for the crew and the grilled cheese and tomato soups I had onboard were some of the best I've ever had. Out on cruises you'd get peppered in coal specks on the deck, and working in the engine room would leave you filthy and grimy- would always need to pack a change of clothes.
Getting out onto the water and taking part in stuff like that was easily the highlight of my late teen years, hoping that I'll have the opportunity to volunteer on her someday again when I eventually move back.
I saw this ship pass through the Panama Canal in 1991 on its way to Europe for the anniversary.
Liberty's has a speed of about 10 knots. The engine had 2500 H.P. The Victory had two different models. One with 6000 H.P. and the later ones with 8500 H.P. that would propel them at between 15 and 17 knots.
My father-in-law was chief engineer on liberty ship Atlantic convoys. He said he never feared U-Boats, but the sound of depth charges at night was unsettling
That makes no sense
@@g.l.5072 Living below the water line, the sound comes right through. That you are dropping depth charges means there is a U boat there, and thus a good chance of being hit by a torpedo that would come in without any warning.
@@SeanBZA thanks for thinking for G.L.
This is similar to me when I see or hear a circling or hovering helicopters, to this day. It meant there was something like enemy troops or positions that caught their eye. Often the gunships would open fire. Sometimes they cleared and mortar or artillery would begin pounding the area. My year in Vietnam was 1969-1970.
A neighbor man when I was a kid captained tankers during the entire Atlantic war He was Irish which helped with his luck, but he also became a confirmed alcoholic and died soon after the war. Tough times for the merchant marine!
The belt added to the Liberty ships was riveted on, not welded. Riveting allowed more flexibility. Destroyers built in WWII had one hull seam near the middle that was riveted. When going into large swells and standing near the stern, looking toward the bow, you can see the hull flex several feet. I served on 3 WWII built destroyers in the 1960s. My dad was on Liberty and other ships in WWII.
Thanks for tidbit of riveting on the cargo flanges
Riveted joints stop cracks, welded joints perpetuate cracks.
More years ago than I like to think about, I did some volunteer work on the Red Oak Victory when I was in Richmond. I rebuilt valves. I'm pleased to hear that she'll soon be moving under her own power. She carries the name of the American city that lost more of her sons, than any other, percentage wise. I was told that the Red Oak National Guard unit remained intact during mobilization and ran into the Afrika Korps at Kasserine Pass. Just about everyone in the town knew, or was related to, someone killed in action in North Africa.
My uncle served in the Merchant Marine during WWII and told the story of a Liberty ship he was on that experienced deck cracking and buckling and they were forced to use the deck winches to draw the bow and stern together to try to weld gussets and braces in place. The temporary repairs got them to Liverpool where the ship settled at the dock while it was being unloaded. He said that it was not an uncommon occurance. I was very young when he told me the story and I don't remember the ship's name. He did mention that Victory ships came later and seemed to be better constructed.
When my dad was bound for England in the worst storm on North Atlantic in WW2 he observed other Liberty ships break in half. What shocked him was on return to Halifax, he observed that still floating halves were pulled into harbor and were being welded back together. He said the haves were not always from the same Ship.
@@saltyroe3179 That's good info, thanks.
My Dad was a Master Sargent in the US Army during WWll. He sailed to Europe aboard the Aquatania and returned home on a Liberty ship. That ship encountered several terrible storms and very rough seas. Almost everyone on board the slow moving ship suffered from seasickness, including most of the crew. Nobody was allowed on deck . My father, who had fought in the Battle of the Bulge, thought he would never survive this voyage home. It was the worst experience of his life.
Being seriously seasick makes you wish you were dead. I myself have seriously considered jumping overboard and swimming the last few miles of open ocean...just anything to get the hell off of the boat. After throwing up everything you ever eaten in your entire life, next come the dry-heaves, where you fully expect to see chunks of your own stomach and lungs. Its god-awful.
Most of us get over it but I can't think of anything worse (perhaps a Nazi torpedo.)
Ann F; Neat. As a 7 year old navy brat my mom & me were evacuated from Honolulu on the Aquitania. All the state rooms had been modified with bunk beds and ours held..... I don't remember. The Limey Aquitania staff tried their best to make the trip seem like a cruise. The menus, for instance while very limited, was still fancy and with fancy names for the offerings. I still have one of the menus if I can just find it. And yes the Aquitaina was large and fast considering it started service in 1914.
@@larsord9139 My Dad said the Aquatania was the third fastest ship afloat carrying troops. The Queen Mary passed my father’s ship as they crossed the Atlantic headed for Europe.
My father was an Australian soldier, he went to the Middle East on the Aquatania.
I have to wonder if my uncle was on that Liberty ship. He had shipped out to England on the Queen Mary but came back in October on a Liberty ship that took several weeks in rough seas to get back to the States. He was in the 3rd army lead column that relieved Bastogne.
My dad was an engine cadet on a couple Liberty ships in 1943. He once told me that the convoys would go so slowly that he could rinse a pair of dungarees on a line over the side. Unfortunately, he had a brand new pair that had battery acid spilled on it, and when he pulled it up, he had nothing but rags. I was a deck cadet on SS American Victory in 1968. She had been pulled from mothballs to carry ammo across the Pacific. One big improvement was a couple of washing machines! I should also say that our average speed from the Panama Canal to Yokosuka, Japan, was 16.5 knots.
Interesting, I knew the Victory ships improved on the Liberty ships, but didn't know the differences. It seems to me the increased speed is the most important change.
Right on
My mom' 1st cousin Saul served on a Victory ship in the Pacific during WWII as a radioman. He was a volunteer with Lane Victory which is in the Port of LA. That ship still goes on cruises. Saul once took me on a tour of the ship. He was very proud of the radio room.
I visited the Red Oak Victory in August 2010 while she was just beginning to be refurbished. For me it was an amazing trip back in time as I spent 4 years at sea as a Navy tech aboard two converted Victory Ships, the USNS Michelson (former Joliet Victory) and the USNS Dutton (former Tuskegee Victory) in the early 70's. Thanks for your video!
It is highly appreciated that you use your ability and exposure to bring the stories of other ships and boats to the attention.
I was talking to a citizen of Oakland where I work about some complaint years ago. Somehow we got talking ships and I found he helped build Liberty ships in Richmond California not far from Oakland. He said a little known problem was that in the summer sun the small change in size of the plates they built up during the day would change the shape of the hull but then shrink when the ship got colder and this was most pronounced in the North Atlantic where the seawater approached freezing (sea water freezes at about 28 degrees). This lead to stresses that exacerbated other issues like earlier weld work, sharp corners at the hatches and so on. This is still an issue. Recently I talked to a man who was a welder of a recent Kaiser hospital. They were welding up the earthquake framing for the hospital that is designed to function as a regional trauma center. The frame kept shifting as it was heated in the sun making alignment difficult. I personally like the Liberty ships because I like to see the two story engines motion. Also they can be run on about anything that burns which made them versatile during the war.
The evolution of technology during the war is so, so interesting.
It was more than interesting. It was absolutely amazing. The number of ships and aircraft built daily was stunning. That is what won the war.
I believe that the higher speed as well a being larger were important. I would also mention that Lane Victory is a museum ship in Los Angeles, and I believe that it has gotten underway regularly. Of course L.A. also has Iowa and Long Beach has RMS Queen Mary.
When I hear "Hi, I am Ryan..." that is my reminder to hit the thumbs up.
My Step-Father served as a radio officer in the merchant marine during WWII. He was on a variety of ships including Liberty ships, Victory ships and tankers. He said he preferred the Victory ships because of a couple of reasons. Relative to Liberty ships he said the added speed of a victory ship made him feel safer and relative to tankers Victory ships were safer since they were less inclined to blow up. He had a quite negative feeling about Liberty ships since three of the ships he was on were sunk.
I have sailed on the Brown many times, looking forward to it again in September - something so cool about watching a triple expansion engine under way!
They had a Victory ship in Tampa Harbor around 2001 that we were able to tour. I had a professor who claimed the Liberty ships had problems with the hulls tearing like a sheet of paper along the welds and one of the solutions was staggering the steel sheets that made up the hull.
That is the AMERICAN VICTORY. I was Chief Mate in 1967 & 1968.
One of the other advantages of the Victory ships was they were fast enough to accompany the fleet as supply ships. They would be a little behind, but not that much.
You've brought back a flood of memories for me. Some 60 years ago, when I was in high school, I attended the Food and Maritime Trades High School in New York City. At that time, the John W. Brown was the school for those of us who wanted to learn maritime trades. The John W. Brown was my school.
My Grandfather, George Rickards, bought a number of Victory Ships for his service, the Eastern and Australian Line, after the war. They had black hulls and funnel and buff upperworks. Very successful vessels until the dawn of containerization.
My black family from Riley in Birmingham. Left for Portland to built those at the shipyard. My uncle was in the army in that area.He left and went back and lived there. I was a park ranger and was at Mt.St.Helens.
I think the speed increase is the most important improvement, for three reasons 1) Less time in transit = less time exposed to danger 2) It makes it harder to intercept and harder to torpedo as with increased target speed your margin of error shrinks 3) It doubles the capacity of the ship over the liberty's, since it can make two trips there and back in the time it takes a Liberty to do one trip. So its twice as much cargo moved more safely.
I sailed on the Lane Victory when I was a kid, it was a fun experience. My grandpa was a merchant sailor in the Atlantic it was interesting to get a taste of his war time experience😊
Hello from a former Baltimorean. The breaking up of the ships produced in Baltimore's Sparrow Point shipyard might have been due to the rapidity of their production. On ac tight production schedule welders I have been told went too fast, and a naval architect was called in to discover the hull failures. Murray Wright, the naval architect, told me that by slowing the welding process down welds with greater integrity were achieved. He went on to design marvelous sailboats in more peaceful times. He was a marvelous gentleman. I am not a historian of the era but that was his verbal communication.
When I was in the navy in the 1970s, occasionally a Victory ship would be at one of the piers in Norfolk. When my ship was in drydock in Philadelphia, in the reserve fleet was a Liberty ship that had been modified for some research purpose and it had motors? welded to the hull in a kind of outrigger arrangement. Two to each side as I recall. I also had a cruise on the John Brown when it came to Toronto about 15 years ago.
That one with the outboards had 4 diesel engines and was filled with foam,it was used a test ship for mine clearing,and made test runs over live mines.
@@gordonking4360 Thanks, I wondered what it was used for. I suppose its been scrapped.
I hope you are able to do something about Henry Kaiser as well as the ore mines and factories that made this possible.
Your passion for this piece of our history is inspiring, keep up the good work!
Ryan, Thanks for this video. I had no idea about the structural differences between Liberties and Victories. And I absolutely had no idea that some Liberties sank from things other than enemy bombs, torpedoes, etc. I thought the only difference was between turbines and triple (?) expansion engines.
My Dad served in the USMM during World War Two. He served on C-5 or C-4 class vessels that had the steam turbines and were larger than the liberty ships. He said that on day watch you could see a Liberty ship on forward horizon, by the end of day watch that same Ship would be on the aft horizon. He said that the C-class vessels out preformed the Liberty ships hands down, in speed and cargo capacity. I always loved hearing about his sailing days on board ship.
I have not only been aboard Liberty ships but I have sailed on a couple of Victory Ships. I don't mean sailing around the harbor on a museum ship, either. I was 3rd Mate and 2nd Mate on a couple of the last Victory Ships that were still operating. Yes, the steam geared turbine power plant on the Victory Ship, which produced either 6,000 or 8,500 hp depending upon the version, was much more powerful than the 2,500 hp triple-expansion steam engine on the Liberty Ship. I have often heard old-timers refer to Liberty Ships being able to maintain a sea speed of only 9 knots, while I have been on a Victory Ship that was over 30 years old that could still easily average over 17 knots at sea. However, there was more to the difference than just the engines. Although the Liberty and Victory ships were approximately the same size and had the same number of cargo holds, they had completely different hull forms. The Victory Ship's hull had a much finer lines than that of the Liberty Ship, which was another reason why it was so much faster. In addition, another important factor was that the Victory Ship had a raised foredeck, which made it much more seaworthy in heavy weather than the flush-decked Liberty Ship. Those ships frequently carried cargo secured outside on the open weather decks and a Victory Ship could maintain full speed in heavy weather without seas breaking over the bow and inflicting damage to vulnerable deck cargo much better than a Liberty Ship could.
It should be noted that ships equipped with reciprocating engines are perfectly capable of having electrical power. How that power is used however may differ as we get more modern.
Liberties had 3 steam recip. Driven 22 kw DC generators. They ran all the lighting, reefer and air compressors, potable water pumps, gyro compass, radio equipment, etc.
My Father was a Gun Captain on the C5 cargo ships, I believe those were the Victory Ships. SS Black Warrior was the last one he served on. They had a 5 inch 38 main battery and a 3inch I believe. Plus a few 20mm and possibly some 50 cal if I remember right
They also discovered postwar that the Liberty ships were prone to their between decks sagging and that would lead to ballast shifting. It is suspected that ballast shifting was the case of many Liberty ship losses that could not be explained by enemy attack. What happened is that sand or similar ballast would be stowed on the between decks with shifting boards to hold it in place. These boards were attached to vertical stanchions. As the Between deck sagged, the bottom support ripped away and allowed the ballast to push the boards out of the way. It wasn't till post war they were able to get aboard a stricken Liberty ship that had suffered this and examine the cause. I believe this story was covered in the book "Serpents Coil" Also there was some film of it, but can't find it.
another great insight. Thanks again really appreciate everything you and your team are putting together, Great work keep it coming
I always learn something from your videos :)
Most important: Speed, speed, speed! The huge increase in speed meant that not only could the V-ships outrun U-boats, they spent less time in the most dangerous parts of the most dangerous convoy routes.
Awesome, I always wondered what the difference was 👍
I served aboard the SS Madeket during the summer of 1968 carrying ammunition to Da Nang. The Madeket was a C2 which seems to be identical to the Victory ships designated VC2. I worked as a wiper promoted to oiler after losing several crew members who jumped ship during stops at various ports in route to Vietnam. My vote would be for the steam turbines. Ours was made by GE and had an output of 6,000 shp. I did get a chance to see and hear the hull flexing when we became stuck for three days in a typhoon off the coast of Okinawa. The sound of the hull flexing in the engine room was like a huge rusty hinge being opened and shut. I noticed on one of the electrical panels in the engine room there was still a circuit for a five inch gun just like on the stern of a Victory ship. It was an interesting summer and paid for my last two years of college.
Visited the American Victory in Tampa, very cool self guided tour - free to roam most of the ship. Speed was the biggest improvement.
I am going to see the American victory this summer
@@0rien_ Really nice exhibit - definitely somewhat hidden from plain view
Very informative indeed! Always have the courage to leave a sinking ship and join a victory or liberty ship.
I was an officer in Deck Dep. on an LKA, so I'm going with SSTG/SSDG technology. Not only does that radically reduce route duration and the concomitant danger from U-boats but it enables control and powering of winches, cargo hatch pneumatics, capstans, etc., to be transferred to the much smoother electric system.
Yay _John Brown!_ I'm overdue to visit again. I hope _Red Oak Victory_ is successful. Never hurts to have more of these vessels capable of sailing.
During the US' adventure in View Nam, I was lucky enough to be deployed to Thailand for most of 1968. There I worked as a cargo handler at the munitions port near Sattahip at Camp Vayama. Almost every ship that came into port was a Victory ship loaded to the gunwales with bombs and other munitions. I have some pictures that I took in the port area, including on the DeLong pier.
One special ship, the SS Andrew Jackson, was really old. In lieu of electric winches, all of the on deck accessories were steam powered. Think being in the tropics at 12 degrees north of the equator with little steam engines running and chugging hot steam everywhere. Also note: The USS Liberty of being attacked by the Israelis in 1968 fame was a converted Victory Ship.
Fascinating! Thanks
Unsung heroes that kept wheels of victory moving. Great video, thanks.
My dad had just completed his machinist apprenticeship in 1939 when ww2 started. He responded to an advertisement for Canada recruiting for merchant marine...
Because he was a journeyman, he was hired as engineering officer, think it was 4th engineer on the Park fleet. (no he wasnt on the Greenhill Park that blew up in Vancouver Harbour).
He rapidly progressed to Chief Engineer on Liberties. He did sail on Victory's but not sure if he was Chief, probably 1st engineer.
Unlike East the coast, west coast Liberty and Victory ships sailed mainly alone as there wasn't a developed convoy systems.
He sailed between west coat ports to Australia, SE Asia and etc.
My dad passed away 2001.
Very informative along of facts that I didn't know my dad was on L S T so when I do support it's that floating ship good luck enjoyed very much programslike yours are topnotch
Speed is life. As a former master, I can tell you the ability to use the additional power quickly can give a boost to maneuvering, though the response speed in turbo-electric installations such as the T2-SE-2 tank ships was impressive. You should have also given thought to the so-called ‘knot-ship’ class, which were a small project, but no less important in the mass production saga.
My grandfather was a saw filer at Kaiser in Richmond CA. Jeremiah was moored two miles north of where I now sit on the Carquinez Strait😊
The frame spacing was Genious
The fact that the Victory ships could out-pace the U-boats is all important. The fact that achieving this speed meant a better power plant, electrical power for utility tasks aboard ship generates an overall improvement of the ship. Secondary is the longer frame spacing that made the hull more supple and less prone to breaking up in heavy seas.
My fathers first command as Master was the SS Tantalus (ex MacMurray Victory). This was 1968 and Tantalus was one of a few Victory ships taken on by Alfred Holt's Blue Funnel line to make up for ships lost during the war.
He liked her very much, possibly because it was his first command but he also liked the smooth, quite running of the turbines rather than the thump of large marine diesels.
However, shipping companies were less keen as maintenance of these, more complex, engines was expensive and in the mercantile marine engineers with turbine experience less common.
My dad served as an deck officer on Liberty ships (including one that broke in two) and Victory ship(s). What he remarked was how nice 17 knot was after years at 10 knots.
It's always nice when your ship doesn't split in two so I guess the spacing of the ribs was a good idea. But I think it's an even better idea when your ship can outrun the dirty buggers trying to torpedo your ship right out from under you. All good fun. Thanks for your very informational "classes" on naval doings.
To me the more advanced power plant and the change to 36 inch frame spacing with better assembly technique are a tie for most beneficial change. Not sinking just by virtue of being under way is big, so is outrunning U-boats.
In the early sixties I served on the USS PROTECROR AGR 11. It was a converted Liberty ship. It was a floating radar station. It had two each 3"50 guns. One fore and one aft. She was a three piston steam engine. I worked in CIC as a radorman. We were near Cuba during the missile crises.
I served on a liberty ship in the mid 1960's. USS Skywatcher was a Guardian-class radar picket ship, converted from a Liberty Ship, acquired by the US Navy in 1954. She was converted into a radar picket ship and assigned to radar picket duty in the North Atlantic as part of NORAD. They were slow(15kts) and top heavy with all the radar. The ship would rock at the pier. It was almost uncontrollable in heavy seas. We had a wave strike the bow in 80ft seas that caused a crack in the hull. Below decks it was basically empty. Large berthing areas with real beds. A full size basketball court and movie theater. It was decommissioned in 1965 at Bayonne, New Jersey.
Instinctively I want to say it's the power plant and subsequent easier plumbing (Wiring instead of pipes) but that doesn't matter if the ships split apart and sink. So I'd have to say the hull change is the most important followed by power plant. I've been waiting for the Red Oak to get up and running again as I certainly plan to take trips on her when she's ready. Thanks for sharing!
Having worked on both, Victories are far more complicated from an engineering plant stand point.
Bonus comment. Bert also on a Lend Lease ship used to constantly complain to me that in North Atlantic storms the ready use gun lockers used to break free and be lost overboard. My father on his ship used to collect corks from wine bottles so that after an attack by Japanese fighter planes the sailors could plug holes in the hull made by machine gun bullets.
My grandmother was a welder in a shipyard in Pascagoula Mississippi during WWII.
I have really enjoyed these other videos you guys have put out lately. It's nice to see some of the small boys too. If you get a chance to visit an LST and film please please please do. My grandfather was on 918 for the occupation of Okinawa and I'd love to see one of them. Unfortunately I don't have the means or ability to travel.
LST-325 has a website
There is a Victory Ship museum in downtown Tampa Fl. We also have Veterans Memorial Park in east Tampa. A beautiful park.
Ryan. Nice to meet you on ROV. I’ve been on both JOB and ROV. Like both.
My great uncle was a radio operator on the Alexander Graham Bell. He turns 98 in a few months and remembers the ship hitting a mine. It didn't sink, but had to be sent for repair. He was later sent to Japan as part of the post war occupation force.
Helped on restoring the John W Brown in the 90's in the engine room, it was awesome underway.
Interesting, thanks! 👍😃
Great job I enjoyed your video. Interesting. Thanks from. Sc
I read an account by a German U-boat commander who stated that his boat returned from patrol empty. His crew went on leave and the ship did the normal between patrol maintenance and supply orders. He was all ready to go out again, except that he had not received his torpedos yet. He got his hands on a captured American newspaper and the front page announced the launching of a liberty ship. Reading the article, he found that the ships keel had been laid down after he had gotten back to port. He said that was when he knew the war was lost, "The Americans are building ships faster than we're building torpedos to sink them."
My grandfather command the USS Okanogan. It's was a Haskell class amphibious transport base on the Victory ship.
Switching from triple expansion stream to turbines. I toured American Victory last year in Tampa. She is trying to get coast guard certified again for cruises.
My Pappy was B Co Commander of the 164 Engineer Combat Bn. (Cherbourg, Bulge, Remagen among others.) He came home from the war on the USS NYU Victory. It was a brand new victory ship. It was commissioned on 26 July 1945 (the war ended on 8 May, but he remained on duty in Europe until August 20, 1945.)
I'd say increased speed was the most important improvement... As Jack Fisher noted, "Speed IS armor."
FWIW
I went to Tampa over my spring break last month and got to check out American Victory, the only fully operational Victory ship left! It was pretty cool, unfortunately since it is still a functional ship visitors aren't allowed below the deck that the gangway goes up to, but still fun nevertheless.
It's a tie for me: frame spacing AND better propulsion. Company I worked for in the 1980's (Bechtel) in mid-1941 organized a subsidiary, California Shipbuilding Corporation -- Calship. From September 1941 through September 1945, Calship built and launched 467 Liberty and Victory ships (some of the Victories were modified into Haskell-class Navy attack transports). That's about two-and-a-quarter ships a week that came out of those yards in exactly four years. When the war ended, Bechtel shuttered the operation and moved back into civilian work. They had never built a ship before the war, and they never launched another ship after the war. I came across a dusty copy of the Calship Log from September 1945 in my office at Bechtel that summed up the achievement. I found it hard to believe what I was reading, but when I showed some veteran Bechtel employees the magazine-style publication, they said it was completely true. What an achievement (and all done without computers, smartphones, clouds, Internet and other forms of "automation" that would have slowed things down). Thanks for this video -- and a salute from a retired U.S. Navy chief petty officer.
My grandfather was the captain of the S.S. General Pulaski (Liberty Ship) during the war. He did the Atlantic Run and the Murmansk Run. Never lost a man! Was part of the D-Day Armada. Told me stories about how they picked up U-boat sailors who knew little English. Surreal moments where you would have Kriegsmarine sailors yelling: "Hey, Baby! Mickey Mouse!".
In the early to mid 1960's, some of the WWII ships were put back in service.
For sure, the troop ships O'Brien, the Sultan, and the General Gaffey were among them.
Stars and Stripes reported the Sultan hit a reef on a trip and sustained some damage on their way west..
Our unit sailed on the Gaffey ... 21 days from Oakland to Okinawa, which was our destination.
But, the ship was packed as it also carried the initial landing of 1st Cavalry soldiers to Vietnam.
Much of our Company was assigned to sleep in the Brig as the ship was mostly full by the time we were loaded.
Those in the Brig were in the Bow and were awakend one night when the ship hit something the night that we were told was a whale?
The rest of us wandered around until we found an empty bunk, mostly either the upper or bottom bunk for the "cruise".
Speed, capacity and frames all seem important, at least to me.
I agree with you that it was the frame spacing!
ive sailed on the Jeremiah Obrien several times when i was stationed in California in the late 80-early90s. i was part of a military historical group and we had a squad sized group on board in uniform with infantry weapons to provide 'color' for the cruise. being in the Air Force Honor guard at the time with a buddy who was also in the group, we organized ourselves into an honor guard detail for the memorial wreath laying as we passed under the Golden Gate Bridge.
of the improvements? obviously NOT sinking because your ship didnt break up is pretty important but the electric drive bringing things into 'the new era' rates up there pretty highly
My Dad was on the H.D. THOREAU. I know he was on both Liberty and Victory Ships. THOREAU got in trouble in a North Atlantic storm, ferrying high explosives, which broke loose in the hold and started rolling around. This is just post war, but still? A lot of mines still floating around, who knows, maybe even STILL? THOREAU sent a PAN PAN PAN, and later an SOS as she began listing. The response? All ships were moved FOURTY MILES AWAY from her! Ship finally made it to coast, but was diverted to Savannah for unload and repair. I have a very faded out newspaper account, title reads: "They made it" but that's all I can read. If anyone knows how to find more or has info, please let me know. I am W8LV. Thanks for making the video. All the Best!
I was on the New Jersey Saturday night, and those boilers sure did look like they're ready to fire up!
great video
I am pretty sure that the British and Canadians had similar ships but 1 gripe i have with the liberty ships they are used to strangle the cargo ship market which meant a load of UK shipbuilding went bustw
Did you want to win the war or not? U.S. shipbuilding has gone bust now too, so I guess it evened out.
I think UK labour issues have more to do with that. And by the mid-1950s , container ships are making these obsolete anyway.
The cheap surplus Libertys were only one ingredient in UK merchant dominance. Bigger factors were that the UK went bankrupt paying for WW2. Then they lost the economic advantage of their colonies. The need to control the seas disappeared as did the need for a large merchant fleet. Dad said the UK could pay generous pensions to their merchant sailors because so many died during WW2. The UK was buying merchant ships during the war while focusing on building War Ships.
You appafely did not know that there was a world war going on. You comment is rather ignorant. Take your gripe to the frontlines. Or next time learn German.
The Red Oak Victory was named for the town of Red Oak, Iowa, which suffered the highest per capita casualty rate of any American community during World War II.
Lane Victory is in San Pedro Ca near USS Iowa.
She has a working 3inch 50 ( shoots propane gas) when cruising .
I was second engineer for a trip.
If I am a crewman on a Victory ship wishing for one thing better than a Liberty ship in the middle of the Atlantic, I would be shouting "Turbine, Turbine! Speed! Speed! Pour it on Captain, They're trying to get in position for a shot."
I think the most helpful thing to the Victory Ships and Liberty Ships was the tech that got better. Like sonar/radar, air cover, and biggest thing was convoys... When the subs became the hunter, there kills went down meaning more ships got to the front.... How they went about getting the ships there in numbers was more important then anything...
I talked to a guy once that had worked at a salvage yard where one or more Liberty ships were scrapped. He said you had to be very carefully when cutting out piping, because a lot of it was under tension and would fly in one direction or another when one end was torched. He blamed this on the rapid construction such that piping and other components forced into position then welded in place and under stress from the moment the ship was completed. It makes you wonder if these built in stresses exacerbated the cracking issues you mention in the cold weather.
My father was on the Pierce Butler that was hit by two torpedoes one fwd of the engines and one aft at 11:40 am Nov.20th 1942. There were 62 people on board and all survived and picked up around 20 hours later by the HMS Fortune off the coast of Durbin South Africa, my father was 17 and the youngest on board. He told me they were all in the life boats and the sub U-177 had surfaced and pulled along side of the boats and one of the men said that we are not out to kill your men but to stop shipping and asked if they had called for rescue and they had before the ship went down.
Thank you for an entertaining and informative presentation.
You make a good case that frame spacing was the most important innovation. I'm going to stick to improved engineering spaces because doubled cruising speed halved the exposure to U-Boats and German aircraft--and to weather. Increased electrical power permitted better sensors--merchant ship radar wasn't standard gear, nor was sonar, and some cargo ships as late as WW2 didn't have decent radios. Today's merchant ships not only have an array of radars and sonars (mostly to prevent collision with underwater obstacles and shallow waters) but an array of communications and navigation aids. The computing power on those merchant ships offers a lot of options from fuel economy to efficient ship loading and unloading. More electricity was good. Some armed merchant ships were fitted with radar sets during the war, but by no means most of them. Period radar sets needed a lot of electrical power.
How many WW2 ships still had non-electric lights?
I think the most important improvement for the victory ships was the engines. They gave it its necessary speed and range to supply the pacific campaign. And speed is survival as the saying goes. Apparently, it also brought along a whole bunch of other technology improvements along with it.
I did not know about the frame spacing difference and it’s effects on the durability of the ship. I knew the victory ships were better built and I knew about the cracking problems of the earlier liberty ships and the lessons learned about that.
My dad liked the victory ships a lot for what they were and their adaptability for future uses. He oftener talked about how you could take a victory ship and add utilize its power section and add sections to the hull to lengthen it and make it a much more productive ship and increase its speed by making it longer. He showed me a couple sitting in shipyards in the 1960’s where they were doing just that. I saw these old victory ships in the shipyard being modified with their older rust pitted hulls with brand new build sections installed in front of and behind the mid sections where the engines were located.
That was back when we still had shipyards on the west coast building and fixing ships. There are all gone now. Replaced by container loading cranes and flat expanses of container storage depots.
When the shooting starts again, we will have to buy all our new freight ships from China. They are the ones with most of the shipyard capacity to build them now.